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papatenis
09-05-2009, 04:27 PM
if you were recruited by both an ivy league or DIV 1 westcoast school, and was offered a scholarship to the westcoast school, which would you choose.
remember ivy's don't offer scholarships, but will help you get into the school if your gpa and test scores are marginal

pricey_aus
09-05-2009, 04:31 PM
if you were recruited by both an ivy league or DIV 1 westcoast school, and was offered a scholarship to the westcoast school, which would you choose.
remember ivy's don't offer scholarships, but will help you get into the school if your gpa and test scores are marginal

It depends what your looking for in college, mate.
Are you looking to have rigorous study schedules, tough classes, but come out of college with a very good education? If you are then go ivy

Or

Are you looking for decent education, good tennis and a good social life, and you are on a scholarship, meaning you get alot more for cheaper, then go westcoast?

If I was in your position, I think I would go to the Westcoast school. ONLY because your on a scholarship, but if you were offered no scholarship then its ivy all the way.

just 2 c...

tennismom42
09-05-2009, 04:38 PM
It depends what your looking for in college, mate.
Are you looking to have rigorous study schedules, tough classes, but come out of college with a very good education? If you are then go ivy

Or

Are you looking for decent education, good tennis and a good social life, and you are on a scholarship, meaning you get alot more for cheaper, then go westcoast?

If I was in your position, I think I would go to the Westcoast school. ONLY because your on a scholarship, but if you were offered no scholarship then its ivy all the way.

just 2 c... I was about to say the same thing. It's a matter of finding a "good fit."

I am not impressed by the name of a school. We drove 2000 miles to visit a big name college & coach. When we got there the coach (aka "jerk") wouldn't even stand up and shake my hand. He knew we had driven 2000 miles for the visit. So much for manners at a big name school.

Take a look at Emery. Therein is a great example of how things don't make sense. It's a division III and the often stomp on Division I and Ivy schools.

Remember, the kid is going for the education. The degree (and the tennis) will be with them forever.

10isDad
09-05-2009, 05:40 PM
if you were recruited by both an ivy league or DIV 1 westcoast school, and was offered a scholarship to the westcoast school, which would you choose.
remember ivy's don't offer scholarships, but will help you get into the school if your gpa and test scores are marginal

I've got to tell you, with your grammar/spelling you wouldn't get into an Ivy league school. And sorry to burst your bubble, but "marginal" GPA and test scores won't allow you into Ivy League schools.

papatenis
09-05-2009, 05:47 PM
I've got to tell you, with your grammar/spelling you wouldn't get into an Ivy league school. And sorry to burst your bubble, but "marginal" GPA and test scores won't allow you into Ivy League schools.

im the dad, sorry but im from another country

papatenis
09-05-2009, 05:52 PM
I've got to tell you, with your grammar/spelling you wouldn't get into an Ivy league school. And sorry to burst your bubble, but "marginal" GPA and test scores won't allow you into Ivy League schools.

i take the sorry back, who are you to judge? i know that my english is not the best, but i try my best. do you know the situation my child is in? please don't judge about the ability to gain entrance into the ivy school if you don't know the actual gpa and sat scores.

10isDad
09-05-2009, 06:12 PM
You are correct. I apologize. I will still maintain that Ivy league schools will not be accepting very many students with marginal grades/test scores. What they do tend to do is to financially assist those who do have the grades/test scores to get in but are not as financially well off.

I have heard (but do not know how accurate it is) that Harvard caps tuition at 10% of a family's income.

Good luck to your son or daughter, and again, I apologize for offending you.

10isDad
09-05-2009, 06:21 PM
One thing I would definitely have your child consider, if it comes down to the choices you described: weather. It's tough to enjoy oneself if you truly hate the weather.

The Ivy league schools can have some really brutal winter weather. If your child likes that kind of weather, great. On the other hand, most of the west coast schools have extremely mild winters (exceptions, of course if that west coast school happens to be in Oregon or Washington).

papatenis
09-05-2009, 06:24 PM
You are correct. I apologize. I will still maintain that Ivy league schools will not be accepting very many students with marginal grades/test scores. What they do tend to do is to financially assist those who do have the grades/test scores to get in but are not as financially well off.

I have heard (but do not know how accurate it is) that Harvard caps tuition at 10% of a family's income.

Good luck to your son or daughter, and again, I apologize for offending you.

apology accepted

a-naik.1
09-05-2009, 09:12 PM
In all honesty, if the Ivy league school will offer to help with financial needs, and money is not that big of an issue...go Ivy. If money is a big factor, then you will get more bang for your buck from the westcoast school. And it depends on you child's climate preference ;)

Flyingpanda
09-05-2009, 09:55 PM
Which west coast school? Some of the schools on the west coast offer a very comparable education to the Ivy leagues.

papatenis
09-05-2009, 10:44 PM
10char10char

papatenis
09-05-2009, 10:45 PM
thanks for the info
the west coast school is located in california, and of course the ivy is on the east coast. she will make the official visits next month. my son attends the west coast school, so she is very familiar with the school. she has some bad allergies to pollen, grass, trees, etc. so we feel that would be a important consideration to make about staying on the west coast. academic wise, we realize that the ivy school is far superior to the west coast school, so that makes things difficult. her college counselor told us that its important that she feels comfortable on campus. tennis wise the west coast school is DIV. 1 (not pac 10) but it's probably comparable with the ivy league. so the tennis level is about the same.
i've read that harvard and princeton base their tuition based on your income.
something like if you gross 180k or less, then your tuition is 10% of your gross income. but those are not the schools recruiting her, to bad.
the financial considerations are very important for us.

jaggy
09-06-2009, 04:56 AM
If it is an international student Id say go where you get the most money. An ivy education opens many doors in the states but abroad maybe not so much so the cost for a parent is less worth it in my humble opinion.

SoCal10s
09-06-2009, 08:34 AM
thanks for the info
the west coast school is located in california, and of course the ivy is on the east coast.

suggest keeping your daughter close,so you can go watch some of her matches when she's in Uni.. D1 ... UCI and Pepperdine are excellent places to go or a good education and ply tennis.. if she can get a full ride to Pepperdine,that will be the best... both places have excellent coaches... I think keeping a girl close is a good thing..

Fedace
09-06-2009, 08:48 AM
thanks for the info
the west coast school is located in california, and of course the ivy is on the east coast. she will make the official visits next month. my son attends the west coast school, so she is very familiar with the school. she has some bad allergies to pollen, grass, trees, etc. so we feel that would be a important consideration to make about staying on the west coast. academic wise, we realize that the ivy school is far superior to the west coast school, so that makes things difficult. her college counselor told us that its important that she feels comfortable on campus. tennis wise the west coast school is DIV. 1 (not pac 10) but it's probably comparable with the ivy league. so the tennis level is about the same.
i've read that harvard and princeton base their tuition based on your income.
something like if you gross 180k or less, then your tuition is 10% of your gross income. but those are not the schools recruiting her, to bad.
the financial considerations are very important for us.

How is the Academics at this Division 1 college ? comparable to UCLA or Cal ?

papatenis
09-06-2009, 09:21 AM
my wife and i are leaning towards the west coast school, but it will ultimately be her decision.
pepperdine lost 4 girls this year, so the coach is scrambling to replace them, i know that he gave a scholarship to a 4 star girl? uci has only one scholarship, my daughter is on his list but doesn't look too good.
the academics at the west coast school is ok, not in the same league as ucla or cal

papatenis
09-06-2009, 09:23 AM
If it is an international student Id say go where you get the most money. An ivy education opens many doors in the states but abroad maybe not so much so the cost for a parent is less worth it in my humble opinion.

are saying that people outside of the us dont think of an ivy education very highly? wow

Fedace
09-06-2009, 09:34 AM
my wife and i are leaning towards the west coast school, but it will ultimately be her decision.
pepperdine lost 4 girls this year, so the coach is scrambling to replace them, i know that he gave a scholarship to a 4 star girl? uci has only one scholarship, my daughter is on his list but doesn't look too good.
the academics at the west coast school is ok, not in the same league as ucla or cal

You have to make your own decision. but from my family's perspective, i know my parents would do everything possible to get me to the college with best academics. Tennis was always secondary. but if financial issue is paramount then it is a different situation. I know it is a difficult decision cause it will ultimately affect her future for the rest of her life. I hope you guys make the best possible decision and turns out for the best.

papatenis
09-06-2009, 09:47 AM
You have to make your own decision. but from my family's perspective, i know my parents would do everything possible to get me to the college with best academics. Tennis was always secondary. but if financial issue is paramount then it is a different situation. I know it is a difficult decision cause it will ultimately affect her future for the rest of her life. I hope you guys make the best possible decision and turns out for the best.

thanks, though i agree with you that academics are very important, my daughter is just an average student, having played tennis since she was four years old, we placed tennis and academics on an equal level. her gpa and sat are good enough to get her into say, ucsb or ucsd, but not cal or ucla. if she were to attend the ivy, she would need help from the coach
were do you play at in san diego, im from la, some of my kids first big tournaments were the "little mo" at barnes. my daughter went to the "little mo" nat'l held in georgia when she was just 8 yrs. old. we have fond memories of "little mo" at barnes

Fedace
09-06-2009, 10:10 AM
Once again, i can only tell you what my family would do if presented with same situation. If i was a average student and was recruited by IVY, they would push me to go to IVY in a heartbeat. Yes it can be difficult financially if this is above your means, but there are lots of help out there for the motivated parents who seek financial help.
As far as the worries about academics in IVY shools, once again, there are lots of help to give guidance and help for students who are motivated and is willing to work hard. Believe me, i have often seen average students that gets into these highly competitive Universities and get thru and graduate.
but one thing is for sure, your daughter has be highly Motivated and be willing to work harder than ever, or otherwise, she may not be so happy in the IVY school. For example, my sister was admitted to the IVY league and spent 2 years there. but she was miserable and ended up transferring to UCLA and finishing her degree there. Now, she didn't transfer cause she wasn't willing to work hard but it was mainly due to the Cut throat competitive atmosphere that existed at that university. Now Of Course, the situation will be different depending on what major she decides to pursue, so i don't mean to paint the IVY league as nothing but cutthroat. I hope you understand what i mean..

Sorry for the long post, just trying to help. Wish everything turns out for the BEST for you and your daughter.

dwhiteside
09-06-2009, 12:06 PM
D1 Tennis will be gone in 4 years but an Ivy League school will remain with him on his credentials and his educational experience for a LIFETIME. Once he's done with D1 tennis, who really cares in the real world, all in all? However if someone looks on the application and sees Harvard, that's a very good thing when it comes to getting certain jobs, not to mention the alumni network and obviously the educational experience.

Ivy Leagues also generally give very generous amounts of financial aid. Think of this long term.

And just because he's at an Ivy doesn't mean he can't play tennis. There are plenty of great tennis players and teams at various Ivy league schools.

Getting into an Ivy League if he did get into it is far quite and a great opportunity that not many get, but playing DIV1 tennis is pretty much a dime a dozen as long as you're good enough at tennis to hang with them.

papatenis
09-06-2009, 12:47 PM
D1 Tennis will be gone in 4 years but an Ivy League school will remain with him on his credentials and his educational experience for a LIFETIME. Once he's done with D1 tennis, who really cares in the real world, all in all? However if someone looks on the application and sees Harvard, that's a very good thing when it comes to getting certain jobs, not to mention the alumni network and obviously the educational experience.

Ivy Leagues also generally give very generous amounts of financial aid. Think of this long term.

And just because he's at an Ivy doesn't mean he can't play tennis. There are plenty of great tennis players and teams at various Ivy league schools.

Getting into an Ivy League if he did get into it is far quite and a great opportunity that not many get, but playing DIV1 tennis is pretty much a dime a dozen as long as you're good enough at tennis to hang with them.

i understand your point, the ivy contacts are indeed very important, but as you move westward across america, there are less ivy contacts. it seems that most stay on the east coast. here on the west coast, if you ask a motivated student where they want to attend college, most would choose stanford, berkely, ucla, even usc, then the ivys
the perception that an ivy diploma carries alot of influence and prestige has been tarnished by the fiasco on wall street. many harvard mba, wharton mba, princeton mba, yale grads have destroyed the world economy.
my daughter wants to play tennis in college, if she chooses to play at a west coast school, she'll make contacts at school and through college tennis. i think that those that attended schools on the west coast will remain there, thus more contacts.
but those are just my feelings, its ultimately up to her. thanks

duusoo
09-06-2009, 02:36 PM
I've got to tell you, with your grammar/spelling you wouldn't get into an Ivy league school. And sorry to burst your bubble, but "marginal" GPA and test scores won't allow you into Ivy League schools.

Well, you are wrong. I encourage you to take a look at the academic backgrounds of the hockey players at Cornell or Dartmouth. Also, rigor is what you create. I know of many who went to Ivy schools, partied all the time, did very little work, and graduated. Its not the name of the school that makes you.

ClarkC
09-06-2009, 08:17 PM
i take the sorry back, who are you to judge? i know that my english is not the best, but i try my best.

No, you don't try your best. You refuse to use a shift key, which is pure laziness and an eyesore for anyone trying to read your posts. If you tried, you would get some slack, but you don't try.

TennisNinja
09-07-2009, 02:11 AM
Chill out about the grammar and spelling everyone, it's an internet forum not English class (Still, it is much more appealing when people type correctly).

Personally I would go Ivy because I really would like to go to a school like that. On the other hand, a full ride sounds really nice.

papatenis
09-07-2009, 09:15 AM
No, you don't try your best. You refuse to use a shift key, which is pure laziness and an eyesore for anyone trying to read your posts. If you tried, you would get some slack, but you don't try.

which is more important, content or shift key?

papatenis
09-07-2009, 09:33 AM
No, you don't try your best. You refuse to use a shift key, which is pure laziness and an eyesore for anyone trying to read your posts. If you tried, you would get some slack, but you don't try.

Why the lecture now? You've been replying to my post and replies for awhile now. Why would you be judgmental about people you don't know? Is it nice to use negative terms like "laziness", "eyesore", "refuse", "don't try"?
I think the reason why I don't use the "shift key" is that I do alot of texting,
but you are right, I should try MY BEST.

papatenis
09-07-2009, 09:36 AM
Chill out about the grammar and spelling everyone, it's an internet forum not English class (Still, it is much more appealing when people type correctly).

Personally I would go Ivy because I really would like to go to a school like that. On the other hand, a full ride sounds really nice.

Thanks, though my grammar and spelling might be poor, I will now use the "shift key" on this site.

Kick_It
09-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I chose a D1 west coast school over one Ivy league school (over 20 years ago) for the following reasons:

1) My SAT scores were 20 points below the cutoff at the Ivy. The coach did his best to reassure me that wouldn't be a problem and he thought it would be doable.

2) I would enter a very competitive major at that school. Intuition suggested that most if not all other students in that major were at least 20 SAT points smarter than me.

3) I knew I'd be obligated to spend a bunch of time doing tennis in addition to academics. This together with 2) seemed like I wasn't setting myself up to succeed in the classroom.

4) The cost of Ivy was greater.

All of the above led me to believe that Ivy was not the right choice for me.

T10s747
09-07-2009, 05:28 PM
Well supposedly the Ivys will give you financial aid if you need it. Then again, you must be able to do the school work as they are less forgiving than other schools about academics.

SoCal10s
09-07-2009, 06:01 PM
your daughter grew up in SoCal and most likely is spoiled by the great climate we have here... take her to the east coast during the winter months and see if she can adjust for a few days... I bet she'll pick west because of one important factor .. it's called 'wind chill' ..:)

snoopy
09-07-2009, 06:09 PM
Ivys don't offer scholarships but many have huge endowments that allow them to offer grants.

I think Princeton was the first school to do this. I know someone who graduated from Princeton a few years ago and all students that were accepted and couldn't afford tuition were provided grants that covered the bill. So not only are you getting an ellite education, you also get a free ride. Pretty sweet. Other top Ivys follwed Princeton's lead bc it gave Princeton a competitive advantage recruting the best students.

But that was a few years ago and things may have changed as the huge endowments got crushed with the tanking economy.

Don't get hung up on the prestige of Ivy league schools. In my opinion, it's more important to do well in the school you go to (assuming it's a decent school) than to feel overwhelmed and get mediocre grades at an Ivy. Straight A's from a quality state university are more impressive than Bs and Cs from Yale. On the other hand, there's rampant grade inflation at the Ivys and better opportunities to network with the cream of the crop.

papatenis
09-07-2009, 06:46 PM
your daughter grew up in SoCal and most likely is spoiled by the great climate we have here... take her to the east coast during the winter months and see if she can adjust for a few days... I bet she'll pick west because of one important factor .. it's called 'wind chill' ..:)


Your right, we are taking a official recruiting trip next month.

10ACE
09-07-2009, 07:00 PM
I've got to tell you, with your grammar/spelling you wouldn't get into an Ivy league school. And sorry to burst your bubble, but "marginal" GPA and test scores won't allow you into Ivy League schools.

Really? I know two people who have gone to Harvard with a low 3.0 average and 1080 on the old SAT'S, just saying never say never.

Puddy
09-07-2009, 10:48 PM
Once again, i can only tell you what my family would do if presented with same situation. If i was a average student and was recruited by IVY, they would push me to go to IVY in a heartbeat. Yes it can be difficult financially if this is above your means, but there are lots of help out there for the motivated parents who seek financial help.
As far as the worries about academics in IVY shools, once again, there are lots of help to give guidance and help for students who are motivated and is willing to work hard. Believe me, i have often seen average students that gets into these highly competitive Universities and get thru and graduate.
but one thing is for sure, your daughter has be highly Motivated and be willing to work harder than ever, or otherwise, she may not be so happy in the IVY school. For example, my sister was admitted to the IVY league and spent 2 years there. but she was miserable and ended up transferring to UCLA and finishing her degree there. Now, she didn't transfer cause she wasn't willing to work hard but it was mainly due to the Cut throat competitive atmosphere that existed at that university. Now Of Course, the situation will be different depending on what major she decides to pursue, so i don't mean to paint the IVY league as nothing but cutthroat. I hope you understand what i mean..

Sorry for the long post, just trying to help. Wish everything turns out for the BEST for you and your daughter.

Where were you accepted and where did you eventually go?

TheLama
09-08-2009, 05:24 PM
im the dad, sorry but im from another country

I'll try to help you the best I can.

Assumptions:

Your daughter will be an international student, therefore, financial aid may or may not be available as a non-American, depending on the school. Which Ivies offer international students money, I am not sure, but very few US colleges give merit awards or finaid to international students.

If the quality of education and playing on the team is most important, as opposed to a possible future pro tennis career, than go Ivy, or look into some D III NESCAC colleges, such as Middlebury--finaid is offered to foreign students--where the academics are as good as the Ivies, but class sizes are even smaller, and the profs are there to teach and help students only. If the prof's office hours at 2pm-5pm, he/she will be there for your daughter, from 2pm-5pm, without fail. Even look into Seven Sisters, such as Welsley, Smith, or Holyoke. Your daughter will be a superstar on court there and have friends for life.

Firstly, the particular Ivy is very important. I assume that you do not want to mention which one(s) on the net. Therefore, I offer the following:

HYP:

Harvard's undergrad experience is less optimal than Yale or Princeton. There are many Harvard alum who prefer to send their kids to Yale instead.

Yale requires 4 more courses, 36 total, to graduate, so you will be stressed for four semesters where you take 5 courses. Remember, most Ivies, use the liberal arts system rather than the university system, and a liberal arts course requires much more in-depth examination tha a 3 credit university course. At Yale, you must stay in the immediate college town area. Outside of that area, is definitely not the best. The coach has been there for 2 years, and she is very young.

Princeton is ideal, and so is the town, which is not just a college town, but a fully supported upscale community. Of the three, it is the smallest. Class sizes are very small, and professors are very accessible. They just hired a new, and very young coach.

Dartmouth/Brown: True liberal arts Ivies. Dartmouth consistently ranks as the highest rated college for student satisfaction in the country. Town is similar to Princeton's. Brown is integrated into the small city of Providence, and very safe. You are also 45 min to Boston if looking for night life or parties at any of the Boston colleges, where there are many. Brown also lets you take any 32 courses of your choice. Both have small class sizes as well.

The Brown coach is new, has quite a record from where he came, and is nationally known as the author of "Pressure Tennis". The Dartmouth coach has been coaching his whole life since graduation, he is quirky, but well liked. With both coaches, you can trust your daughter to be taken care of if something happened, and you need a surrogate parent until your plane gets there.

Columbia: you are on the Upper Westside, and gentrification has taken over the northern area of the campus. It is very safe, and of course, you are in NYC. It is the ultimate sink-or-swim school. The profs are there to help, but anyone who comes to NYC is expected to be crazy independent. The coach is very young, and the assistant coach just got hired.

Cornell: the most beautiful of all of the Ivies. It is a true university, and very difficult to get "A's". Everything is graded on a Bell Curve, so if everyone gets a 95-99 on an exam, than all of the 95's receive an "F", and all of the 99's get an "A". Everything in-between is a "B/C/D". That's tough!. The coach just took over both men's and women's tennis, and came from a winning program in the *******. You can trust your daughter to be taken care of if something happened, and you need a surrogate parent until your plane gets there.

Penn: Like Columbia in many ways, but once you leave the four college campus area, you need a body guard. You must stay by the wharf, on South St., or historic areas. However, it is a very quaint and historic city. The student body is 35% Jewish, if that has any meaning to you for any reason. The coach is new and very young. They have had a lot of turnover for both men's and women's tennis. If she goes to Penn, go for the academics; you'll never know how long the coach will be there.

Ivies stress academics first. If there is a choice between class and tennis, you will go to class, and the coach will not only agree, but be supportive, as long as you are missing practice because you have to, not because you skipped class and hung-out with your boyfriend and now you are behind the 8 ball. If she goes to the West Coast and takes an athletic scholarship, THE COACH OWNS HER! PERIOD! Most coaches can care less about GPA, as long as the team's APR is solid and each member of the team's GPA is above 2.0. Ivy coaches do not share that POV.

If you are a slotted recruit, first or second on the recruit list, you are basically in, and that goes for NESCAC and Seven Sisters. Therefore in any given year, eight players are the heart of the team--four years times 2 slotted players--and unless you do not meet your potential or there is an incredible walk-on, you will play for four years.

Ivies are private schools; the amenities are beyond compare. You are basically at a country club, and NESCAC and Seven Sisters are even better. Unless you are being recruited at Stanford--which I know you are not because you are not American--or USC and Pepperdine--which is absolutely beautiful with dorms on the hill over-looking Malibu Beach--your on-campus experience will not be as elite if you attend a state institution. Just walk through the main part of town at Cal, or UCLA where there are crack houses nearby, and you will know the difference in 60 seconds.

BTW: Most girls go to the school where they are most comfortable with the other members of the team and the coach. A bad recruiting trip can have an adverse effect, even if the academic environment is the best fit. Female athletes are more problematic in this area than male players, who will either choose the better team for many reasons, or the better academics. They will deal with difficult teammates or a coach if they get to start. Period.

If your daughter is not aspiring to go pro, and you can afford the Ivies, that is where she should go. Academically, you may get as much from Cal, UCLA, USC, and Pepperdine, but they don't have the whole package that the Ivies do, nor do they have the cache. With that being said, if your daughter is very independent, driven, and has passion for her academics, than she will succeed anywhere. For comparison, if you play #1 for Harvard, you would play #6 for Stanford. Use that as a guide when comparing all of your options and decide which is the most import factors: academics, participation in tennis or playing in the top three in the line-up, strength of schedule, future in pro tennis or not, Ivy degree vs any West Coast degree that isn't Cal or Stanford.

Good Luck!

tlimster
09-08-2009, 08:46 PM
I'm going to be biased because I attended two Ivies, one for college and one for grad school, but I think you will never regret going to the more rigorous school. I also think that it's pretty difficult to get straight A's from a public school. If you are good enough to get straight A's from a UC, you will probably get a fair share of A's from the Ivy of your choice.

Most of the Ivy tennis players I knew were highly motivated and excellent players and students at the same time. The financial aid you receive would be the same no matter which Ivy you attend, because they all use similar algorithms to determine your need (there were antitrust grumblings around how similar the financial packages were in the past, I recall). But you can also negotiate additional financial aid if you talk to an officer and explain that money is an issue and you have a scholarship at a public school. It would probably come in the form of loans.

If your daughter is not being recruited by USC, UCLA or Cal, but rather another Div. 1 California school, then I don't think she'll be a professional, or it will be a short career, and she's better off going with the school that will get her off on the right foot after graduation with a new career.

Nellie
09-09-2009, 05:14 AM
I always think you should go to the best range of schools where you are accepted. If your daughter can go to an Ivy League school or a comparable state school, I would suggest the state school. If your daughter can go to an Ivy League school or a random free school, and your daughter better do well (very well) at the free school. As an example, when I went to graduate school at an Ivy League school, I noticed that the average student from a top 20 school would have about a 3.5 GPA (which is likely around the middle at most Ivy League schools). From smaller, less known schools, these students had on average, 3.8+ GPAs, and where at the top of their graduating classes. So your daughter can get to the same ending through different paths, but the less expensive path is likely more difficult.

That being said, you cannot get blood from a turnip. If the money is not there, than the Ivy may not be an option. (I am not buying the Mona Lisa if it goes up on auction).

jrod
09-09-2009, 05:51 AM
....here on the west coast, if you ask a motivated student where they want to attend college, most would choose stanford, berkely, ucla, even usc, then the ivys...

Agree completely. However, Peperdine isn't in the same league academically as these west coast institutions you cite. I'd hire someone out of Stanford or Berklee without much hesitation....not so for Ivy grads.

You really need to look very carefully at the D1 schools academics and what the likely trajectory is for your daughter post undergrad.

Good luck!

supertrex
09-09-2009, 06:28 AM
I'll go with Ivy league school, the chances of getting hired from those schools are very high, and with a high paycheck to back it up.

dwhiteside
09-15-2009, 08:42 PM
TheLama, I know you may not read this, but I really enjoyed your post - I'm applying to a number of schools. Out of the ivies the only ones I'd care to go to are Brown and Princeton. Could you write some in a similar descriptory manner about places like Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst? The top ranked liberal arts schools, basically. This would probably include the entire NESCAC consortium and maybe some others. It'd be quite helpful! Thanks

OleNole
09-20-2009, 06:05 AM
@papatennis
one thing to remember is that most of the top tier northeastern schools have programs that grant free tuition to middle-class and poorer students as a way of making sure these students don't have to go elsewhere because of money.

I know at Yale the cutoff is a net family income of $100,000 a year for free tuition; it is my understanding that most Ivy League and NESCAC schools offer similar programs. Also, depending on your family's ethnicity, your daughter may be eligible for scholarships and grants (particularly if you are latino).
The NESCAC schools are generally very good about working with you in the financial aid department, and the level of tennis is arguably the highest in D3, equal to or better than at many D1 schools.

meowmix
09-20-2009, 06:51 AM
I'm not a particularly good tennis player, and have no shot of being recruited, so take this how you will.

Personally, I would attend the Ivy. No matter where you are in the world, people respect an Ivy education. It doesn't matter if you're in America, China, Argentina, etc... when you say that you graduated from Harvard or Dartmouth or Cornell, you are respected. This opens up doors, and makes it a heck of a lot easier to gain employment.

I read earlier that your daughter is allergic to pollen. Unfortunately, she's going to face that anywhere she goes. I live in PA right now, and I can say that people with pollen allergies are absolutely miserable during peak season (speaking from experience).

In terms of money... if she's getting recruited by Harvard, Yale or Princeton, then money is no problem. They cover everything if the family's income is under 60k (in US dollars), and you pay 10% of your income if the family income is up to around 180k (Harvard goes up to 200k I think). As for the other Ivies, financial aid is still very generous. For most, if the family makes under around 80k or so, there's a lot of financial aid to be had. Therefore, depending on which Ivy, you could pay anywhere between nothing and 20k (assuming you're not a secret millionaire :) )

In terms of tennis... yes, the Ivies' tennis programs are not the best in the world. If she's aspiring to go pro in 4 years, then the West Coast school's the better option. However, if she's not planning to go pro in a few years, then college tennis isn't really going to matter, is it?

Ultimately, I would go to the Ivy. However, that's my personal opinion, and I am in no way being recruited by any school. So take my advice how you will.

TheLama
09-26-2009, 02:40 AM
TheLama, I know you may not read this, but I really enjoyed your post - I'm applying to a number of schools. Out of the ivies the only ones I'd care to go to are Brown and Princeton. Could you write some in a similar descriptory manner about places like Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst? The top ranked liberal arts schools, basically. This would probably include the entire NESCAC consortium and maybe some others. It'd be quite helpful! Thanks

Brown and Princeton:

Before I go into it, to be recruited at either school, you need to be playing SuperNats or ITF Events. If not, you will not be recruited. End of story. Also, the best that Glen can do at Princeton for a recruit is a minimum of 1400 SAT. Jay looks for players who will have an impact as adult college athletes, who may even have a desire to lay pro tennis. Therefore, being a junior world beater but lacking size, movement, a serve, or a volley, will leave you off his recruit list.

Swarthmore/Williams/Amherst:

Swarthmore is in a consortium with Bryn Mawr and Haverford. It is a Quaker school, so everyone is crazy nice--perhaps too nice/boring/nerdy, but that is a judgement that only you can make.

Swarthmore's team is as good as many D I NE teams, but you better be prepared for an offbeat student body, who relish reading like all of the time. 6 hours of sleep per night is going to be the best that you will ever see. A decent sectional ranking will get you in, but I do not know if they have slots.

Williams has the cream athletic department in NESCAC. The coach just retired after decades, and his replacement is a recently graduated alumni. If the new coach stays with tradition, they will carry 16 or more players, and take anyone with a decent sectional ranking, but you may never play. They do have two slots for recruits, and being on the recruit list after those two, will be helpful. Academically, your at Williams, what else is there to say?

Amherst has arguably the best coach in NESCAC, although my money is on Gastonguay at Bates. Chris was a Top 100 ATP ranked player, and the associate coach at Ohio St with Ty. He is tough on the players, and expects a lot from within. However, during his last two years there, his recruits have been shakey academicians, forcing team captains to tutor younger players, and being sleep deprived on-court in the process. Translation: you need to be going to Nats and possibly Super Nats to get the coaches attention. They do have two slots for recruits, and being on the recruit list after those two, will be helpful. Amherst students believe that they are the sh*t....after all, they are Amherst, and could have easily gone HYP. The town is awesome, and a shuttle to a Smith party is 10 minutes, and the town that Smith is in is upscale, and very liberal, like being in the West Village of NYC but with the East Village culture. Many students take crossover courses at Smith, Mt Holyoke, Hampshire, and UMass. The consortium is the best part, in my opinion. And that would be the same for Swarthmore as well.

All three schools get spared the weather that you get up there in Maine, and it doesn't get dark at 3:30 pm as you are accustomed in the winter. Also, your Nov 1st heavy snow falls do not exist either.

I am real big on LA colleges; the profs are there to teach and always available in their office, cell, or email. Miss a class or two, and they may call you to see how you're doing. Your folks have a concern....the president, provost, or dean, will pick-up the phone; coach screwed you, your folks can call the AD and complain, and there will be a meeting on your behalf.

Bottom line: you are totally taken care of, will get great recommendations after graduation, alumni affairs is beyond belief, and you will be in a community...a home....for four years.

Good Luck!!!

T10s747
09-26-2009, 10:40 PM
TheLama knows his stuff.

Eph
10-09-2009, 01:20 PM
You are correct. I apologize. I will still maintain that Ivy league schools will not be accepting very many students with marginal grades/test scores. What they do tend to do is to financially assist those who do have the grades/test scores to get in but are not as financially well off.

I have heard (but do not know how accurate it is) that Harvard caps tuition at 10% of a family's income.

Good luck to your son or daughter, and again, I apologize for offending you.

Thank you.

Parents income under 60k? Go for free.
Parents income 60-250k? Go for 1/10th the income

And as for social life? It's great at Harvard...

And the tennis is unbelievable. Today we had Notre Dame vs Harvard and I think it's Alabama tomorrow.

Eph
10-09-2009, 01:21 PM
How is the Academics at this Division 1 college ? comparable to UCLA or Cal ?

UCLA has top programmes. Not sure which school is "Cal".

Carlito
10-09-2009, 01:30 PM
I'll go with Ivy league school, the chances of getting hired from those schools are very high, and with a high paycheck to back it up.

Thats just what they want you to think!!!

Hominator
10-09-2009, 01:57 PM
D1 Tennis will be gone in 4 years but an Ivy League school will remain with him on his credentials and his educational experience for a LIFETIME. Once he's done with D1 tennis, who really cares in the real world, all in all? However if someone looks on the application and sees Harvard, that's a very good thing when it comes to getting certain jobs, not to mention the alumni network and obviously the educational experience.

Ivy Leagues also generally give very generous amounts of financial aid. Think of this long term.

And just because he's at an Ivy doesn't mean he can't play tennis. There are plenty of great tennis players and teams at various Ivy league schools.

Getting into an Ivy League if he did get into it is far quite and a great opportunity that not many get, but playing DIV1 tennis is pretty much a dime a dozen as long as you're good enough at tennis to hang with them.

+1. I totally agree. Go for the best degree possible.

Hominator
10-09-2009, 01:58 PM
UCLA has top programmes. Not sure which school is "Cal".

Cal is UC Berkeley.

Hominator
10-09-2009, 01:59 PM
Thank you.

Parents income under 60k? Go for free.
Parents income 60-250k? Go for 1/10th the income

And as for social life? It's great at Harvard...

And the tennis is unbelievable. Today we had Notre Dame vs Harvard and I think it's Alabama tomorrow.

How did Notre Dame do? I'm an alum.

Eph
10-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Then that's also an excellent school. One of the top philosophy departments in the world, and I know they're high on the lists for mathematics, neuroscience, et al.

Forgo the crappy US News rankings and look at the NRC rankings.

Eph
10-09-2009, 02:01 PM
How did Notre Dame do? I'm an alum.

No idea, unfortunately. I wasn't able to go to Murr - busy with homework all day.

35ft6
10-09-2009, 04:15 PM
if you were recruited by both an ivy league or DIV 1 westcoast school, and was offered a scholarship to the westcoast school, which would you choose.
remember ivy's don't offer scholarships, but will help you get into the school if your gpa and test scores are marginalPersonally, I would go to the Ivy League school unless you're talking about Stanford or maybe Berkeley. Unless you're planning on going pro and think playing stronger people day in and day out is critical, then I might go west coast. I guess it also depends on what you're majoring in.

duusoo
10-10-2009, 08:35 AM
I can provide some reality to this post. Having been an attorney for the past 43 years, and having also played Big 10 tennis, you are never hired or promoted as a result of where you graduated from. That is a bunch of bull! Two years ago the Wall Street Journal ran a series of articles of where the majority of business leaders went to school. Know which school was #1? Denison in Ohio. Its who you are, and how you works in teams, not where you graduated, or even what your rank was. Probably the best attorney I've ever worked with graduated from Drake, and got his undergraduate from Northland College in Wisconsin. Get off the Ivy league stuff. If you want to play tennis find a school that allows you to play, and where you can have a good time, and get a good education. If you have a personality that makes a rat vomit, it doesn't matter where you went. I know of one attorney who got his undergraduate from Brown, his law degree from Harvard, and he is working for the Public Defender, not because he wants to, but because he has failed everywhere else. No one likes him, no firm wants him. Wake up!

borg number one
10-10-2009, 08:47 AM
I think one of the most important parts of the decision should be: "what exactly does the student plan to study?" or "what is the intended major?". People tend to compare schools overall, but often large public Universities are very strong academically, especially in certain fields, where there is a tradition at that school for that field, with lots of very successful alumni, and plenty of funding/research. Often, you can actually get a better education in a given field at a large D1 school relative to a "Ivy League" school. Common examples would be engineering, natural sciences, architecture, and business/MBA programs. If a student is somewhat undecided, he or she can take the basic courses necessary as prerequisites during years 1 and 2, and then decide on a major just before year 3. Personally, I attended UT-Austin as an undergrad, and I know that the education I received there, with the wide assortment of classes I took, and all the resources available to me, with top-notch faculty, created a great learning environment. I later got my MBA, and graduated from Law School, and the education I received at UT prepared me so well for life in general, as well as for my chosen career. Plus, the weather, the other students, and the city of Austin, Texas were all outstanding. On top of all that, the in state tuition was ridiculously low relative to out of state schools.

cys19
10-10-2009, 10:39 AM
I would go to a top west coast school if she does anything other than business, mainly because prestige isn't as much of a money making factor in medicine compared to business and law. I'm a Penn student and the wind here is very strong. Indoor courts are not well ventilated either. Would not recommend Penn as a tennis environment.

Dave Mc
10-12-2009, 10:26 AM
If your child's ambition is to be a top politician, or a CEO of a big financial institution, then I would say that an Ivy League degree actually could help open some of those doors along the way. Otherwise, the state universities will give your child everything needed to start a promising career in engineering, computer science, etc., etc. Personally, I played tennis for a small state university. And when I graduated, I made a lot less salary than people I knew that had attended the larger state universities and expensive private colleges. But after a couple of job changes and several years of experience, I was working side-by-side with those guys making the same salary. For most career paths, a degree will only help land the first job.... then down the road, it's your job experience and your contacts that count.

wilsonplayer
10-12-2009, 11:21 AM
I'd just like to say that Ivy League schools definitely recruit and offer money. I understand they are not allowed to do this, but they do it anyway. I'm not too sure about tennis recruiting, but they certainly, certainly recruit and give money "for academics" or some other lie in other sports.

AndrewD
10-12-2009, 01:07 PM
No matter where you are in the world, people respect an Ivy education. It doesn't matter if you're in America, China, Argentina, etc... when you say that you graduated from Harvard or Dartmouth or Cornell, you are respected. This opens up doors, and makes it a heck of a lot easier to gain employment.

10 years ago, the PR firm I was working for in the United Kingdom (one of the largest in England and throughout the UK) did a study into this. In conjunction with our Australian branch we found that, on average, people have heard of Harvard, Princeton and Yale (the first two due to academics, the last due to television) but they'd draw a blank if you mention Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth,Columbia and Penn. HOWEVER, people did recognise the term 'Ivy League'. So, in that regard, saying you went to an Ivy League school would illicit recognition (not respect) but not if you mentioned anything other than Harvard, Princeton and Yale.

The things I remember most are that people thought Brown and Dartmouth were joke names (like 'Bovine University') and their concept of an Ivy League school was informed by 'Animal House' (they were unaware that it was based on Dartmouth) and Frasier.

Outside of the Ivies, people were aware of UCLA, Notre Dame (that has far greater cache than most American colleges/universities), NYU (due to films), MIT, Cal Berkely (it and Notre Dame have very high name recognition), Michigan (mostly due to 'The Big Chill'), Rutgers, Duke and North Carolina (the last two mainly due to their appearance on sweatshirts). However, the majority would struggle to recognise Stanford, USC, Georgia or any of the other institutions that Americans consider to be at the top of the academic food chain.

To generalise: Cambridge, Oxford (those two out-rate everything else in name recognition and respect) and Harvard will open doors internationally, but that's it.

Expired
10-12-2009, 05:05 PM
These threads always make me feel like I've failed at life.. -___-

BreakPoint
10-15-2009, 08:30 PM
10 years ago, the PR firm I was working for in the United Kingdom (one of the largest in England and throughout the UK) did a study into this. In conjunction with our Australian branch we found that, on average, people have heard of Harvard, Princeton and Yale (the first two due to academics, the last due to television) but they'd draw a blank if you mention Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth,Columbia and Penn. HOWEVER, people did recognise the term 'Ivy League'. So, in that regard, saying you went to an Ivy League school would illicit recognition (not respect) but not if you mentioned anything other than Harvard, Princeton and Yale.

The things I remember most are that people thought Brown and Dartmouth were joke names (like 'Bovine University') and their concept of an Ivy League school was informed by 'Animal House' (they were unaware that it was based on Dartmouth) and Frasier.

Outside of the Ivies, people were aware of UCLA, Notre Dame (that has far greater cache than most American colleges/universities), NYU (due to films), MIT, Cal Berkely (it and Notre Dame have very high name recognition), Michigan (mostly due to 'The Big Chill'), Rutgers, Duke and North Carolina (the last two mainly due to their appearance on sweatshirts). However, the majority would struggle to recognise Stanford, USC, Georgia or any of the other institutions that Americans consider to be at the top of the academic food chain.

To generalise: Cambridge, Oxford (those two out-rate everything else in name recognition and respect) and Harvard will open doors internationally, but that's it.
Wait, if this survey was done in the UK, isn't it not very surprising that Brits would recognize Cambridge and Oxford much more than any American university?

35ft6
10-15-2009, 10:32 PM
I can provide some reality to this post. Having been an attorney for the past 43 years, and having also played Big 10 tennis, you are never hired or promoted as a result of where you graduated from. That is a bunch of bull!But you often get hired based on who you know and who recommended you. If you go to an Ivy league, you get the chance to become friends with people who are way more connected than a person at a state school, generally speaking. Life is all about who you know and college is when you should really start forming a network. Make as many friends as possible, especially with people who are going into the same field as you, not to mention respected professors and researchers in the field. These are the people who are going to help you get internships, fellowships, grants, and jobs in the future.

Like USC and NYU film schools, it's not like people see your resume and say "he went to NYU, lets let him direct Transformers 4." But it's enough to give you an edge for a PA job over a person who didn't go to NYU or USC film school. And those schools offers a lot of resources that smaller film schools don't have. Job and internship listings exclusively for their students submitted by USC and NYU grads, lists of contests and grants, industry mixers, seminars available to students, screenings of other students' films where you can make more contacts, etc. USC and NYU people are everywhere and all else being equal, they will try to help out somebody from their school. Likewise, Harvard has a lot of successful people in positions of power all over the place, and if you go to Harvard, maybe you'll meet somebody who knows some of them or the guy doing the hiring has fond memories of the professor who wrote a letter of recommendation for you. If nothing else, you have something in common. The right college can make a huge difference.

35ft6
10-16-2009, 02:34 AM
Swarthmore/Williams/Amherst:

Williams has the cream athletic department in NESCAC.

Amherst has arguably the best coach in NESCAC,

...

Translation: you need to be going to Nats and possibly Super Nats to get the coaches attention.My school played a tournament where these schools were competing. I went three sets but lost to William's number 2. And I saw Amherst's 1 and 2. The 2 was pretty good, but he lost to William's guy in 3 sets as well. I wasn't a national level junior so I'm king of surprised by your description of Amherst in particular. Maybe -- maybe -- their number 1 played the Zoo, but the number 2 guy just looked like a very solid sectional player.

AndrewD
10-16-2009, 02:15 PM
Wait, if this survey was done in the UK, isn't it not very surprising that Brits would recognize Cambridge and Oxford much more than any American university?

Do you honestly think that we wouldn't have made allowances for regional bias? I don't know how they do things in the States (actually, I do) but in a professional environment, that's one of the first things you attend to. Regardless, I also wrote "in conjunction with our Australian branch". Didn't that tell you the study wasn't conducted in one country alone? LOL, I'll bet you didn't read any further. You found what you thought was a glitch then overlooked everything else that didn't match with it. Classic RC mistake.

I'm also seeing, by your use of the term 'Brits' that you're unaware the United Kingdom also consists of of Wales, Ireland and Scotland. None of those people are 'Brits'.

Of course there are limitations to any study but I can say that over the course of the entire project we built a strong understanding of the attitudes held in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India and Japan. They don't vary much at all. Ask someone in those countries to name 5 educational institutions not in their own country and you're more likely to get the Sorbonne than Stanford. Ask them to name 5 educational institutions in the United States and you'll get the ones I mentioned. Harvard was, unquestionably, the most common name with Princeton, Yale and UCLA being typical responses.

Jim A
10-16-2009, 03:05 PM
if you want to be a teaching pro for life, go to the westcoast school

have aspirations beyond, Ivy League

the dumbest people I know who made it into ivy's due to athletics all had great connections and jobs when they graduated..one who is as bright as my pet rock nets a cool 300k...

what sounds better to you

BreakPoint
10-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Do you honestly think that we wouldn't have made allowances for regional bias? I don't know how they do things in the States (actually, I do) but in a professional environment, that's one of the first things you attend to. Regardless, I also wrote "in conjunction with our Australian branch". Didn't that tell you the study wasn't conducted in one country alone? LOL, I'll bet you didn't read any further. You found what you thought was a glitch then overlooked everything else that didn't match with it. Classic RC mistake.

I'm also seeing, by your use of the term 'Brits' that you're unaware the United Kingdom also consists of of Wales, Ireland and Scotland. None of those people are 'Brits'.

Of course there are limitations to any study but I can say that over the course of the entire project we built a strong understanding of the attitudes held in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India and Japan. They don't vary much at all. Ask someone in those countries to name 5 educational institutions not in their own country and you're more likely to get the Sorbonne than Stanford. Ask them to name 5 educational institutions in the United States and you'll get the ones I mentioned. Harvard was, unquestionably, the most common name with Princeton, Yale and UCLA being typical responses.
Yes, of course I had read that the survey was done in conjunction with the Australian branch, but you didn't say that Australian people were questioned in the survey, and since Australia has strong historical ties to Britain, I discounted it as it's not surprising to me that Australians would hold UK universities in high regard. Now if you had said that the survey was done in conjunction with your Chinese branch, that would be different.

Yes, of course I know that the United Kingdom also consists of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales. Or else I would have just said the "English". United Kingdom = Britain. Thus, British = "Brit" for short. So, yes, Andy Murray is a "Brit".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people

"The British (also known as Britons, informally Brits, or archaically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaism)Britishers) are citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship) of the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom), of the Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man), one of the Channel Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Islands), or of one of the British overseas territories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_overseas_territories), and their descendants."