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krosero
09-09-2009, 09:22 PM
I've always thought that any forum should have a sticky to address such issues. That may be a long-term goal for this board. This thread is just to raise the topic, so we can better equip ourselves and make the forum better for it.

If anyone else has constructive thoughts about the problem, whether links to good articles about it, or you just have a question, feel free to post.

Here's a basic introduction to the problem.

http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?boardstrolls

A `troll' is an individual who enjoys creating conflict on the internet. He or she creates and fuels arguments which upset other members of the online community.

Trolls thrive in the anonymous space that is the internet. Trolls crave attention from others, and they don't care whether the attention is positive or negative. For trolls, other users are not quite real people; they are abstract characters on the other side of a computer screen. Trolls don't feel bad about hurting the feelings of other people in the digital space.

Trolls view chat rooms and newsgroups as a challenge where the winner is the user who creates the biggest argument, the user who upsets the most people in the most dramatic way. A troll wants to be the user getting the most attention.

Troll behavior discourages many users and makes for a less vibrant online community. New users may not post because they fear ridicule. Established posters may leave an online community because the noise has overwhelmed the real discussion. Trolls can make an entire community paranoid, leading users to become negative or to accuse a user engaged in normal criticism as a troll.

krosero
09-09-2009, 09:26 PM
And I think this article is well worth reading: http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/.

nfor304
09-09-2009, 09:44 PM
Ignoring them is the best way to go i find. Its the attention we give them by responding and trying to argue with them that spurs them on to new levels of idiocy.

Also since there is only 1 troll in the Former pro players section I'm going to assume its Chopin and his moronic threads that has lead to you creating this thread.

I'm with you. He used to be amusing but now he is just beating a dead horse and being mean spirited. I cant stand that guy.

TennisandMusic
09-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Well I suppose the only problem is that often times people consider a difference of opinion to be trolling. Whereas that person just might STRONGLY believe what they are saying (even if its completely ludicrous). Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes its not.

pc1
09-10-2009, 04:51 AM
Good topic Krosero. It's a pity that it had to be done. The constant repeating of topics and beating a dead horse is really hurting the quality of the Former Player Talk threads. The person doing it thinks that's they're clever when the opposite is true.

krosero
09-10-2009, 07:48 AM
Well I suppose the only problem is that often times people consider a difference of opinion to be trolling. Whereas that person just might STRONGLY believe what they are saying (even if its completely ludicrous). Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes its not.Indeed sometimes trolling is not so obvious, and a lot of articles I've found say so. They also point out that sometimes people get incorrectly labeled as trolls. Sometimes that happens when a troll gets called a troll, and simply spits the word back at other people.

Or, as in the intro I quoted above, trolling can cause an atmosphere of paranoia, in which people start to distrust each other and hurl the label at each other.

Now, is it possible that someone who merely has an unpopular opinion gets called a troll unfairly? I'm sure that happens at times, but I do know that a popular troll tactic is to play the persecution card. Or, a troll will provoke, and then blame YOU for your reaction. So it can seem like you're the one causing problems. That's a common tactic I see both online and offline.

Whether a troll believes what he says, I don't know, and I'm not sure how much it matters. I have no doubt that at least some trolls believe every word they say. That does not mean they're not trolls. The underlying theme seems to be, are they seeking personal attention? Is that the goal, overriding any desire for a healthy debate with other people? Are they seeking personal pleasure at other people's expense?

There have been some trolls on this board, going back years, who simply spit out what they have to say and then go back under the bridge, so to speak. They don't emerge again for some time. But others are more extraverted and will delight publicly in how much effect they're having, how popular they are (or some other kind of boasting; or they might issue personal challenges on any number of topics even unrelated to the board topic). In that sort of case, the troll doesn't mind transparently admitting his delight in power and public attention. Not all trolls will do that, but some do.

Rabbit
09-10-2009, 07:48 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think the real difference can be found in the verbiage used. Trolls, like the resident one, use very sarcastic and abrasive language in their OP.


Well I wish I had seen this thread before I saw another thread I just responded to.

Great topic and suggestions here. I will follow them.

krosero
09-10-2009, 08:18 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think the real difference can be found in the verbiage used. Trolls, like the resident one, use very sarcastic and abrasive language in their OP.The trouble with this is that I've seen trolling done, not with abusive language, or even language at all; sometimes I've seen it done with statistics -- because everyone, trolls and regular users alike, know that stats have "objective" aura about them. In some ways I can see how some trolls, if they're into numbers at all, might be very tempted to use them to their own advantage.

Here's quote worth repeating, from that long article linked to above:

ALL Trolls crave attention. That is the sole reason they exist - whether or not they want to feel that they have achieved something (even if it is destruction) or to be recognised for doing something deviant, they want just a little attention in their direction.That seems to be the common element. Beyond that, they've got a variety of personalities. Introverted/extroverted. They might be into stats, or not so much. Some use abrasive language, while others can actually be well-mannered at times (or cool as a cucumber, if they're finding it easy to just sit back and get ill-mannered reactions from people).

Rabbit
09-10-2009, 08:39 AM
The trouble with this is that I've seen trolling done, not with abusive language, or even language at all; sometimes I've seen it done with statistics -- because everyone, trolls and regular users alike, know that stats have "objective" aura about them. In some ways I can see how some trolls, if they're into numbers at all, might be very tempted to use them to their own advantage.

Here's quote worth repeating, from that long article linked to above:

That seems to be the common element. Beyond that, they've got a variety of personalities. Introverted/extroverted. They might be into stats, or not so much. Some use abrasive language, while others can actually be well-mannered at times (or cool as a cucumber, if they're finding it easy to just sit back and get ill-mannered reactions from people).


And you're a great man, Mr. Roth. There's much I can learn from you


Somehow....that just seemed appropriate... :)

gsquicksilver
09-10-2009, 09:01 AM
so who would you guys say are trolls in this forum?

wyutani
09-10-2009, 09:02 AM
so who would you guys say are trolls in this forum?

you. 10 char.

krosero
09-10-2009, 09:06 AM
Naming people as trolls is bound to have nothing but a negative effect. It will get personal and we'll learn nothing.

Much better to discuss the articles and their general ideas/suggestions.

Or simply to offer articles on the topic. That's all this thread needs to do.

hoodjem
09-10-2009, 09:25 AM
^^^True.

One characteristic seems to initiating threads which are manifest baiting, such as "Who Would Win--Big Bill Tilden or Li Na?"

Particularly on the forum, Former Pro Player Talk. The implication is clear: Tilden is such an old fart with such an outdated game that the OP questions whether he could even win over a mediocre woman player of today.

The comparison is ludicrous, and blatantly designed to intrinsically denigrate one of the players. By even stating the question, one call into doubt the record and abilities of the more famous individual.

sureshs
09-10-2009, 09:43 AM
I would say that starting a thread (which was deleted) falsely accusing Nadal of doping (as was done by Hare in this thread) is far worse than trolling. Trolling would be to then repeat the lie on other threads, which was also done.

Rabbit
09-10-2009, 10:53 AM
I would say that starting a thread (which was deleted) falsely accusing Nadal of doping (as was done by Hare in this thread) is far worse than trolling. Trolling would be to then repeat the lie on other threads, which was also done.

So then topics that are not 100% proveable, yet out there, like the existence of a Dunlop AG100 4D for instance, are not to be mentioned?

The fact that the story was going around the game at the professional level did not warrant discussion?

This sounds more like a personal attack on your part to me.

gsquicksilver
09-10-2009, 11:07 AM
you. 10 char.

thank you, you are so kind. i guess you just proved the point of this thread :)

YULitle
09-10-2009, 11:42 AM
I think the funniest part about the link is that it's on IMDB.

jamesblakefan#1
09-11-2009, 05:25 AM
Great thread. Hopefully more people join the discussion. Maybe even explain where they're coming from when they're expressing sentiments which could be viewed as "trolling", s.a. calling players clowns, jokes, pushers, chokers, etc.

hoodjem
09-12-2009, 06:52 AM
I guess that is why someone invented the Ignore List.

Topaz
09-12-2009, 08:48 AM
^^^yes, the ignore list is a very handy feature!

David_Is_Right
09-12-2009, 11:14 AM
On TT, anyone who holds a view that deviates from recieved wisdom is often labelled a troll. This gets old, and I for one find the constant "xxx is a known troll, ignore them", etc, etc. is often more disruptive than the person themselves.

If you think someone is wrong, present a counter-argument.

i love t3nn1s
09-12-2009, 04:38 PM
i love trolls

wyutani
09-13-2009, 03:56 AM
i dun see many trolls nowadays, they tend to slow down at the end of grand slams.

Terr
09-13-2009, 08:43 PM
Douse the troll in gasoline and throw your lit cigarette butt at them.

None smokers should refer to other suggestions/methods.

I also like:

Shoot them in the gut and trail them from the back of your car for 8 miles on dirt roads.

wyutani
09-14-2009, 01:07 AM
Douse the troll in gasoline and throw your lit cigarette butt at them.

None smokers should refer to other suggestions/methods.

I also like:

Shoot them in the gut and trail them from the back of your car for 8 miles on dirt roads.

did u finish watching the "punisher"?

Terr
09-14-2009, 07:19 PM
did u finish watching the "punisher"?

No I did not. I hate John Travolta.