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avengaar
09-11-2009, 02:07 PM
Has anyone else ever had problems with Title 9? If you are unsure what it is it basically states that a university has to have equal numbers of male and female athletes in all sports combined.

It really messes with men's sports. The men's tennis team at my university carries only 8 players while the women's team carries 15+. Sports like football unbalance the equation horribly causing many schools to cut their tennis team completely or shave it down to a bare minimum. It really is an outdated rule that is ruining men's tennis at the university level for anyone but the very top schools and players.

Anyone else have an opinion on Title IX?

gameboy
09-11-2009, 02:22 PM
Get rid of football?

papatenis
09-11-2009, 05:42 PM
It think it was originally a good idea, but needs to be updated.

NickC
09-11-2009, 06:40 PM
Get rid of football?

Good idea. The football program should always have to act independently, IMO. They give up the money because they use the school's name and colors. The fact that like 70+ scholarships are given out for football is taking things way too far. Especially when most of these guys are just dumbasses who cause a ton of trouble both on campus and off.

avengaar
09-11-2009, 10:09 PM
Good idea. The football program should always have to act independently, IMO. They give up the money because they use the school's name and colors. The fact that like 70+ scholarships are given out for football is taking things way too far. Especially when most of these guys are just dumbasses who cause a ton of trouble both on campus and off.

Well that isn't going to solve anything at all. That's just playing off stereotypes.

NickC
09-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Well that isn't going to solve anything at all. That's just playing off stereotypes.

Stereotypes exist because they're true or resemble the truth more often than not.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
09-12-2009, 10:18 AM
So many threads and entries on this subject, just flipped thru B.Jean King's "old" book on the subject of "Blame it all on football" - Seems as though her answer is magic fairies were going to pay for all this equality.

Two quick notes-
Arizona just installed a women's water polo team- Coach, Ast. Coach, players, flights around the country to try and find other teams to play... Too bad AZ. has NO High School water polo programs, SO EVERY PLAYER HAD TO BE IMPORTED.

Drove by the U of A women playing SOCCER last night, Vs. BROWN.... I'm sure the six people watching this titan match were enjoying themselves (3 were groundskeepers waitng to turn off the lights, so I guess manditory attendance doesn't count).

Who pays? Not taxpayers, you nut you, FOOTBALL and BASKETBALL.

El Diablo
09-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Manfred
my brother was a Dean at UArizona (since moved elsewhere) and very cognizant of athletic programs. At most schools football and basketball also lose money, with relatively few schools turning a profit. I'm for Title IX and think the world would be a better place if more college sports were intramural. I enjoy sport, but it wastes money better used elsewhere by universities.

jmnk
09-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Has anyone else ever had problems with Title 9? If you are unsure what it is it basically states that a university has to have equal numbers of male and female athletes in all sports combined.

It really messes with men's sports. The men's tennis team at my university carries only 8 players while the women's team carries 15+. Sports like football unbalance the equation horribly causing many schools to cut their tennis team completely or shave it down to a bare minimum. It really is an outdated rule that is ruining men's tennis at the university level for anyone but the very top schools and players.

Anyone else have an opinion on Title IX?
I'm sure football and basketball players (and fans, and donors) think along these lines: "sports like tennis, male or female kind, causes many schools to cut down on football/basketball spending. It is really an outdated rule that university must maintain sports that brings no money, and/or nobody is watching."
My point is that everything depends on how you look at it.

Supracool94
09-12-2009, 03:10 PM
Title 9 is outdated and should be repealed!

Its killing many college tennis and wrestling programs!

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
09-12-2009, 08:17 PM
Sorry Diablo, but since U of Arizona is a public school everything in Athletic Department is pretty much public record.
Tell me again basketball lost money there.

jaggy
09-13-2009, 06:58 AM
Football could survive on about 60 scholarships, they get too many.

El Diablo
09-13-2009, 12:21 PM
Manfred
Time to go back to school for remedial reading. I said nothing about UA's program making or losing money. I said that my brother was familiar with the situation at universities generally and most lose money on football and basketball as well. Myles Brand, the ailing NCAA president, had been on the faculty at UA and my brother became knowledgeable about the issue.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
09-13-2009, 12:24 PM
Maybe your brother should be commenting on this issue.

The cutbacks to number of players and a dozen other "perks"?
Funny... That was Billy Jean's point in that first book- That somehow all that money generated by football should not be used to continue that sport- But, instead, shrink it's size and hand over the difference to women's sports by Federal mandate.

An poor solution if only for the most obvious reason- Success brings success, and you can't pull in "star" players if your program blows and has no chance of offering prospects what other teams can. I guess everyone could be mandated by Federal law to shrink their programs and stand around wondering where the money went for these girls to use.

Well the Arizona Star had an opinion column this morning (Sunday) from a Regent member (in so many words) that the Regents are going to use former Senator DeConcinni to figure where to cut althletics, given current finance sitsuation- Say "Goodbye" to men's tennis ( and a couple other minor mens sports) in Arizona.

gokou703
09-13-2009, 04:33 PM
We discuss this topic often in the seminars for my kinesiology master's program. Title IX was created for the purpose of increasing the acceptance rate of women in higher education (Phd., M.D. programs). Its effect on athletics has been the main focus though. According to my professors football programs specifically, throw off the balance between men's and women's intercollegiate programs. It is true too that most programs that football loses money every year. The "prestige" football gives schools discourages athletic directors from cutting football, therefore hurting smaller programs...i.e. tennis, wrestling. I've read an article where one locker cost $17,000+ for a football player and a top D-1 school. Sadly, I love football though and understand how much emphasis football is given because of its importance in the United State's society. I was also effected from title IX with the mere existence of it in the D-2 & D-3 schools in my area. IMO I think football should be a self provided program. In that way at least we won't lose football and the money can be more equally divided between men and women's teams. It's a very difficult topic to find a clean cut solution.

ollinger
09-13-2009, 05:29 PM
I didn't understand the complaint by "The Wonder" that not enough people were watching a women's soccer match. I thought the idea of collegiate sports was another way to foster growth, character, skills, teamwork, work ethic, responsibility etc. in college students. Is the size of the audience a measure of any of this?? Should college sports be for the students participating, or for some other (commercial??) purpose. I'd like to see it conducted for the students who participate. And I think the same principles apply that apply to the play of small children: the more responsibility they take for organizing it themselves, the more they benefit from it.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
09-14-2009, 05:04 AM
In the staed cases then, if even football loses money- they must be reaching into taxpayer and alumni pockets, so make minors a club sport
get the federal government out of desisions of mandating what sports to spend on, and allow the taxpayer or alumni to diecide the number of foreign players (the 2nd longest issue here) Can't seem to have it both ways.

Shaolin
09-14-2009, 08:33 AM
My school's men's tennis program got axed thanks to Title IX.

jaggy
09-14-2009, 09:34 AM
In this day and age the travel by many non-revenue sports is extreme to say the least, they need to cut back on expenses and stay local more.

Casey10s
09-14-2009, 10:18 AM
Title IX to me is a perfect example of people trying to make decisions without knowing the subject. I think everyone associated with getting this passed thought the schools would be creating all of these women's sports and keeping the men's teams. What happened was that a few women's teams were created and many men's teams were shut down. Sports such as tennis and wrestling really got shafted. I saw something like 200 men's college tennis teams got shut down in a 15 year period and something similar for wrestling. A few of these came back but most have gone by the wayside. All Title IX did was reduce the overall sports at the colleges. Football and basketball are bigger than ever and all other sports try to survive on the scraps.

You would have thought that Congress would have asked the schools how they would implement Title IX. Maybe they would have gotten honest answers and have worded it so that the colleges would not have closed down all of the different teams so that Title IX can be met.

gameboy
09-14-2009, 11:33 AM
Is it so bad when minor men's sports teams just become intramural?

If you want to blame someone, blame football. It is choking all other sports. If you believe that supporting minor sports should be priority, just cut the football team.

If you go the other way, then tough, live with the consequences.

Encouraging equal participation in college is a noble goal in my opinion. It is just that football sucks up all the oxygen in the room that is the problem.

fruitytennis1
09-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Face it no one is gonna cut back on football. They could be self supporting money wise but they spend so much!!!! They hand out scholarships as if money was lying feet thick on the ground and in tennis its like we are in wwIII and have no money left over.

jaggy
09-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Face it no one is gonna cut back on football. They could be self supporting money wise but they spend so much!!!! They hand out scholarships as if money was lying feet thick on the ground and in tennis its like we are in wwIII and have no money left over.

Exactly, if a football proram brings in say an extra million theres this myth that all sports benefit in a meaningful way. Basically football takes about 70% for coaches and equipment and the admin takes another 25% for their inflated salaries and maybe 5% gets spread around all other sports.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
09-17-2009, 05:51 PM
And that is IF football that runs in the black.
It is an alumnus magnet, and tool if you were- It runs so much deeper, and is so much more complicated. In NC, does basketball serve the same purpose?

I wish I had a little girl.

NickC
09-17-2009, 06:25 PM
Basketball and football are two totally different beasts here. Generally, the basketball teams have a roster of 25 guys at max and not everyone has a full ride (only the starters), while football has close to 100 (some even more) players per team, a good deal of whom that see playing time maybe 3 minutes a season. About 70 of those guys are on full rides and most are doing the bare minimum in classes. Football needs to be self-sufficient, without any funding from the school whatsoever. Whatever extra revenue they take in needs to be given to the school.

avengaar
09-20-2009, 10:29 PM
At least basketball in terms of title 9 is balanced out due to having a women's team too.

film1
09-20-2009, 10:37 PM
Football programs give and take a lot.

Dave Mc
09-21-2009, 11:18 AM
"Encouraging equal participation in college is a noble goal in my opinion."

I agree, but offering 8 full scholarships to the women's tennis team, and only 4.5 full scholarships to the men's tennis team, does not reflect an equal system at all.

My old school dropped men's tennis back in the 80's while moving from D-II to D-I. Since I had played for that team, I couldn't help but take it kind of personally. I have not and never will send one dime to my old school because of this. And each of my friends who also lost their men's teams do not contribute to their old schools, either. I'm sure that it was not the intention of Title IX to cancel men's teams and alienate alumni. But since that was the immediate and continuing result, the committee should have amended Title IX to eliminate that unfortunate side affect. Title IX is very irresponsible legislation in its current form, in my opinion.

wings56
01-27-2012, 06:06 AM
we cant necessarily blame this on football. i played on a d1 team that had done away with its football team in the late 80s. there was a school wide vote on whether or not to bring the football team back my sophomore year. the entire tennis team was terrified. we, and all of our friends and supporters voted no on bringing it back. our effort was fruitless and it passed with an overwhelming margin. we thought we were done for sure.

fast forward to the year that football came back. the entire campus was updated. the stadium updated. strength/fitness coaches now for all sports. a gym specifically for athletes. better management in the athletic department. it actually brought money to all programs and made it better for all athletes. i cant say anything bad.

so let's look at the real problem here. the women's sports. how many girls played sports at your high school. sure there are cheerleaders/twirlers/things like that. but how many played a sport? (another subject is cheerleading SHOULD be a collegiate sport as it would help ease pressure on the mens quotas) why would the number of women wanting to compete in high school all of a sudden be equal to that of the men. it just doesn't happen. there arent as many women interested in playing collegiate athletics.

many schools cant GIVE away all of their scholarships to women. the year after my alma mater's women's team won the southland conference, the coach had two scholarships he couldnt give away. he had only 6 girls on the team with two injuries and played much of the season with only 4 girls.