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Connors
10-08-2009, 01:46 PM
When Serena plays her best (which is one in every 10 matches), she's great and a worthy #1, a Hall of Famer and probably one of the top 7 female players of all time.

But, for 28 years old, her total tournament victories pale in comparison to the legends of Graf, Navratilova, Evert and Court at the same age.

She's too inconsistent and too often does not bring her "A" game. Her 11 majors are tremendous, but she will probably win MAYBE one or 2 more as she is usually breaking down and/or too sloppy in too many events.

I'm glad Serena is back to #1 as Safina was the biggest number one joke ever. Serena deserves it. But, she's not in Martina or Steffi's league as far as overall greatness and consistency.

SourStraws
10-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Agreed...Imo she underacheived...Could have been and maybe can still be contender for one of the GOAT

S.S.

boredone3456
10-08-2009, 01:56 PM
Exactly...the true upper Echelon of Greats (Nav, Graf, Evert, Court), were consistantly bringing their best everywhere during their best years. Nav..yes in her younger years was out of shape and not doing that but once she got in shape she played 100% everywhere whether it was a slam or not. That is mark of greatness, a strong record of achievements both at the slams and outside of them...and in both of those categories Serena comes up shorter than the best of the best. Even if Serena somehow won 18 majors (which I think is impossible at this juncture), her non slam numbers hold her back considerably as she would in that scenario probably not that much more than 50 overall titles...a pretty dismal number if she did manage 18 slams.

thalivest
10-08-2009, 02:01 PM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

jelle v
10-08-2009, 02:43 PM
Serena should have at least one Grand Slam more.. the US Open where she lost to Capriati. Serena got robbed in that match as I remember it.

I'm a big Serena fan, but I never liked the fact that her focus has rarely been 100% at tennis. She could have achieved a lot more.

Lionheart392
10-08-2009, 02:47 PM
Serena should have at least one Grand Slam more.. the US Open where she lost to Capriati. Serena got robbed in that match as I remember it.

I'm a big Serena fan, but I never liked the fact that her focus has rarely been 100% at tennis. She could have achieved a lot more.

Serena still made a huge amount of unforced errors in that match and although the bad line calls were appalling, they didn't change the outcome. The only person who robbed Serena was Serena herself.

jelle v
10-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Serena still made a huge amount of unforced errors in that match and although the bad line calls were appalling, they didn't change the outcome. The only person who robbed Serena was Serena herself.

If I remember correctly, the bad line calls were at very crucial points?

Bloodshed
10-08-2009, 04:19 PM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

Wow great post Thalivest.

I agree with you about everything you just said. Superb historic researches on your behalf.

However some believes Navratilova's GS win were based on an era which is my and drwood's opinion, the weakest WTA era ever (82-86) where only Evert could stop her.

Talker
10-08-2009, 04:37 PM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.
Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

Excellent post!!!

jelle v
10-08-2009, 04:49 PM
Excellent post!!!

Excellent post?! It's just another standard "she got lucky" and "her opponent choked" post... excuses excuses excuses..

Talker
10-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Excellent post?! It's just another standard "she got lucky" and "her opponent choked" post... excuses excuses excuses..

Talk to the creater of the excellent post or are you afraid?

boredone3456
10-08-2009, 07:21 PM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

Well Said. the only thing I would debate is that the 2008 US Open, if Venus had beaten Serena, might have been Jankovic's...she usually plays better in terms of quality against Venus than she does Serena. But that is me spiltting hairs a bit.

edmondsm
10-08-2009, 07:31 PM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

You know, it's easy to sit there at your computer and put asterisks next to people's achievements, say "what if'" and "should've". Heck, we all know how much people try and downplay......GASP.....Steffi Graf's achievements by citing the stabbing of Monica Seles. But Graf still had to go out and win those trophies just like Serena went out and won her's.

I completely agree with the OP. Serena is not in the top tier of women's tennis historically. She didn't manage her career the way she should have if she wanted to pile on the achievements like Graf, Navratilova, etc. But her career has been amazing nonetheless.

deddied
10-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Serena should have at least one Grand Slam more.. the US Open where she lost to Capriati. Serena got robbed in that match as I remember it.

I'm a big Serena fan, but I never liked the fact that her focus has rarely been 100% at tennis. She could have achieved a lot more.

same here she could be so much better but. . .

tennis_hand
10-09-2009, 12:29 AM
All these girls today dream to be some super model.

Tennis isn't really their interest.

federerfanatic
10-09-2009, 12:37 AM
Excellent post?! It's just another standard "she got lucky" and "her opponent choked" post... excuses excuses excuses..

No different than your saying she should have won atleast one more slam but for some bad lines calls. Excuses excuses excuses. Especialy given that it isnt at all obvious she would have won that particular match without them, and she still would have had another 2 matches to win for the title which you have no way of knowing she would have won. After all the player she lost to in that particular match (Capriati of course) went on to lose in the semis to someone who herself went on to lose in the final. Plus the eventual winner of that years U.S Open lost an incredibly close final to Serena later that fall where she (Kuznetsova) had a match point despite playing only about 60% as well as she did in the U.S Open final.

JankovicFan
10-09-2009, 03:07 AM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.That is an impressive excercise, but it really just raises woulda/coulda/shoulda to an art form. It didn't happen.

grafselesfan
10-09-2009, 03:27 AM
Those of you who are belittling Serena's achievements due to weak competition forget that Martina N. played in arguably the only time period the WTA was as bad as it is today or worse. That is 1982-1986 IMO the weakest 5 year span in womens tennis history. 1985-1986 was improved somewhat, but 1982-1984 is probably the worst field in history, maybe even worse than today. Think of the field other than Martina herself. A past her prime Evert, who I mantain already in 82-84 was at the same point of her career that Martina was in hers from 87-89, if not even further along. Then Mandlikova who is overrated by many people based on the fact her peak level, talent, and shotmaking ability was outstanding, and her ability to beat Martina and Chris to win slams and make her slam finals is impressive, but people overlook her consistently was horrible for a multi-slam winner, her longevity was lacking as well, and she missed chunks of time with injury. That leaves Shriver who is one of the best players to not win a slam, but is still overall clearly inferior to the best players with only 1 slam like Sabatini, Novotna, and even probably Martinez. Jaeger arguably was a similar level of player to Shriver in 1982 and 1983, but was gone after 1983. Wendy Turnbull back in her prime age was arguably at a level similar to Shriver, but was in her 30s by the time 1982-1984 rolled around. The rest of the field sucked. You cant even count Austin who was finished after 1981. Players like Hanika, Bunge, Jordan, Durie, Kohde Kilsch, Potter, were hopeless. Glorified journeywomen who made their way into the top 10 for extended periods, and some even into the top 5, due to the painfully weak field . Steffi Graf at only ages 14 and 15 was already slapping most of those women silly (Durie was the only one who held her own vs a pre pubescent Graf at that age).

In 1985 and 1986 it improved somewhat with Sukova, and a young pre prime Graf and Sabatini aged 15 and 16 arriving joining the top 5 or 6, Mandlikova finally returning to her 1980-1981 form for a couple more years, and Chris despite being past her prime having a late career resurgence. However 1982-1984 was probably the worst field ever, possibly even worse than today. 1985-1986 wasnt anything great either, just an improvement somewhat over 82-84.

Dolphina
10-09-2009, 05:25 AM
She is lucky as heck to have 11 slams. She really ought to have about 6. She has won her last 5 slams with the best women player in the World since mid 2003- Justine Henin, absent. She has not won a slam since mid 2003 with Henin playing. Lets look at the circumstances of some of her slams:

2003 Australian Open semis- historic choke by Clijsters in the semis. 5-1 lead in the 3rd set blown. Shocking to see even from one of the biggest chokers of all time.

2005 Australian Open semis- Sharapova choking serving for it in the 2nd and then blowing 3 match points in the 3rd. Davenport foolishly allowing her to go 3 sets with the mediocre Dechy, and foolishly still playing a doubles match that ended up going 3 long sets before the final also. Davenport's fuel tank hitting empty halfway through the 2nd set of the final when she was 30 minutes away from completing a destruction of Serena. Oh yeah Henin who has clearly had the upper hand vs Serena since 2003 (4-1 in slams, 5-3 overall) happened to miss the event.

2007 Australian Open- this one was really a joke. Major choke job by Petrova who was up 6-2, 5-2 I believe, and a lesser choke from Peer in the quarters. Vaidisova was overpowering and outhitting Serena in the 1st set of their semis, but let a ball go she thought she was going out on set point in the 1st set and never recovered from there. Then a broken shouldered Maria in the final who served like Hingis, Maria in the final courtesy of the zombie "why am I still playing" Clijsters in the semis. Oh yeah Henin was absent, you know the player who went 3-0 vs Serena in slams that year and was by far the best player in the World for the year 2007.

2008 U.S Open- Venus totally should have won their quarterfinal in straight sets. I am still wondering if that match was staged. Venus literally threw away about 10 set points in the 2 sets combined, Serena did nothing to save them, Venus gifted them almost seemingly on purpose by missing easy shots. This was Venus's title and she gifted it to her little sister virtually on purpose.

2009 Australian Open- Complete choke job by Kuznetsova in the quarters after completely outplaying Serena to that point. Also saved by biased decision to open roof when they wouldnt for other players. Dementieva as usual folding in a big match despite being in better form than Serena at the time. Given how Serena played her I am pretty sure Henin takes her as well had she been there.

2009 Wimbledon- Dementieva played like a fox most of the day but played like a little mouse in the crucial points late in the 3rd when she should have closed it out. Venus looked injured in the final, as her form throughout Wimbledon was higher than Serena's or anyone else.

I dont look at her as a typical 11 slam winner, not with how she is massively lucky to have that many, not with how limited overall tournament success, consistency and other variables she has relative to what someone with even 9 slams should have, and not with how terrible the competition has been for atleast half of her slams.


As for Graf and Navratilova they are so far out of her league she cant even see them with a telescope.

Funny to think how Venus should probably have the same # or more slams than Serena. Venus should have won the 2008 U.S Open, 2003 Australian Open (as Clijsters should have finished off Serena and I think Kim loses to Venus here), and 2009 Wimbledon, which would give her 10 slams to Venus's 8. Even if I am wrong about Venus beating Kim in the 03 AO final it would be 9 to 8 for Venus then. Actually that isnt even counting the last 3 Aussie Opens Serena was so lucky to somehow win.

Lol, your hate for Serena must be great.
Did all the other great players win all their matches easily when they won a grandslam? Didnīt Graf once win against Jana Novotna, who did the biggest choke job in tennis history? Or what about the match against Hingis ī99?
And for everyone who says itīs the weakest WTA in tennis history, was Grafs era that great? After Seles stabbing she didnīt have a serious opponent anymore. And firstround matches were a lot easier then, as I remember.
I agree, that the tennis the top players bring up is not always great and Safina or Jankovic being Number 1 is ridiculous, but the overall depth is really strong.
Also Serena did not just win those matches she was behind because her opponents choked, but also because sheīs a great fighter and often comes up with some great shots when sheīs behind.
Plus sheīs not even that from Navratilova or Evert as you would like her to be. In the end what counts is the number of gs you have and nobody will ask how you got them, except maybe you :lol:

deddied
10-09-2009, 06:10 AM
Lol, your hate for Serena must be great.
Did all the other great players win all their matches easily when they won a grandslam? Didnīt Graf once win against Jana Novotna, who did the biggest choke job in tennis history? Or what about the match against Hingis ī99?
And for everyone who says itīs the weakest WTA in tennis history, was Grafs era that great? After Seles stabbing she didnīt have a serious opponent anymore. And firstround matches were a lot easier then, as I remember.
I agree, that the tennis the top players bring up is not always great and Safina or Jankovic being Number 1 is ridiculous, but the overall depth is really strong.
Also Serena did not just win those matches she was behind because her opponents choked, but also because sheīs a great fighter and often comes up with some great shots when sheīs behind.
Plus sheīs not even that from Navratilova or Evert as you would like her to be. In the end what counts is the number of gs you have and nobody will ask how you got them, except maybe you :lol:

me likie postie!!!!!:):)

Steve132
10-09-2009, 02:28 PM
You know, it's easy to sit there at your computer and put asterisks next to people's achievements, say "what if'" and "should've". Heck, we all know how much people try and downplay......GASP.....Steffi Graf's achievements by citing the stabbing of Monica Seles. But Graf still had to go out and win those trophies just like Serena went out and won her's.

I completely agree with the OP. Serena is not in the top tier of women's tennis historically. She didn't manage her career the way she should have if she wanted to pile on the achievements like Graf, Navratilova, etc. But her career has been amazing nonetheless.

Edmondsm:

Great post - this is by far the fairest and most balanced assessment of Serena's achievements in this thread.

Steve132
10-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Those of you who are belittling Serena's achievements due to weak competition forget that Martina N. played in arguably the only time period the WTA was as bad as it is today or worse. That is 1982-1986 IMO the weakest 5 year span in womens tennis history. 1985-1986 was improved somewhat, but 1982-1984 is probably the worst field in history, maybe even worse than today. Think of the field other than Martina herself. A past her prime Evert, who I mantain already in 82-84 was at the same point of her career that Martina was in hers from 87-89, if not even further along. Then Mandlikova who is overrated by many people based on the fact her peak level, talent, and shotmaking ability was outstanding, and her ability to beat Martina and Chris to win slams and make her slam finals is impressive, but people overlook her consistently was horrible for a multi-slam winner, her longevity was lacking as well, and she missed chunks of
time with injury. That leaves Shriver who is one of the best players to not win a slam, but is still overall clearly inferior to the best players with only 1 slam like Sabatini, Novotna, and even probably Martinez. Jaeger arguably was a similar level of player to Shriver in 1982 and 1983, but was gone after 1983. Wendy Turnbull back in her prime age was arguably at a level similar to Shriver, but was in her 30s by the time 1982-1984 rolled around. The rest of the field sucked. You cant even count Austin who was finished after 1981. Players like Hanika, Bunge, Jordan, Durie, Kohde Kilsch, Potter, were hopeless. Glorified journeywomen who made their way into the top 10 for extended periods, and some even into the top 5, due to the painfully weak field . Steffi Graf at only ages 14 and 15 was already slapping most of those women silly (Durie was the only one who held her own vs a pre pubescent Graf at that age).

In 1985 and 1986 it improved somewhat with Sukova, and a young pre prime Graf and Sabatini aged 15 and 16 arriving joining the top 5 or 6, Mandlikova finally returning to her 1980-1981 form for a couple more years, and Chris despite being past her prime having a late career resurgence. However 1982-1984 was probably the worst field ever, possibly even worse than today. 1985-1986 wasnt anything great either, just an improvement somewhat over 82-84.

The 1982-86 field was NOT weak. It was clearly stronger than the field in the late 1970's, before Austin, Mandlikova and Jaeger emerged. Evert was not past her prime in 1982-84 - in fact, she was playing better than she had done in the late 70's, and rarely lost to anyone other than Navratilova.

Mandlikova was not overrated, either. I could go on about the other players listed in your post, but the bottom line is that you are indulging in your favorite pastime of trashing the players who are perceived to be the main rivals of the GOAT claims of your heroes. You even use the same argument "weak competition" - to belittle Navratilova's achievements that you use to attack Federer's.

Grow up. Graf does not need this - she was too great a player to have to rely on such arguments.

edmondsm
10-09-2009, 04:40 PM
Edmondsm:

Great post - this is by far the fairest and most balanced assessment of Serena's achievements in this thread.

Thanks Steve. It's amazing how much hate there is for Serena out there. Not that some of it isn't deserved, but Serena threads are where you see the lowest common denominator of TW. There are literally dozens of threads that do nothing but call her fat and ugly. She certainly has her haters on this site.......made evident by the number of posters that thought that garbage thalivest wrote was "excellent".

grafselesfan
10-09-2009, 09:57 PM
The 1982-86 field was NOT weak.

Continue to live in your dream world.

It was clearly stronger than the field in the late 1970's, before Austin, Mandlikova and Jaeger emerged.

This shows how little you really know. Mandlikova played much much better in 1980-1981 than what she was from 1982-1984. She had a hard time even holding seed in events from 82-84, her ranking dropped well outside her customary 3-4 area for awhile, and she rarely had any big wins and never in slams during that period. Late 1985-1986 she might have played her best tennis ever, but 82-84 she in fact regressed.

Austin was at the top from 79-81. 82 and 83 she was already finished and playing some part time tennis through horrid injuries which already made her a shadow of her old self when she did play, merely delaying the inevitable retirement. Diminished to the point she couldnt even get a game off Evert in their only meeting those 2 years, couldnt beat Jo Durie on clay, and couldnt beat nearly 40 year old Billie Jean King at Wimbledon.

Jaeger does not even register on the radar screen as far as players who provide solid competition for an all time great. She isnt even one of the 6 best players to not win a slam (Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull, Casals, Fernandez, Dementieva, are already some I can think of who are better). She also only lasted a few years.

Evert faced a much deeper and tougher field during her reign than Martina ever did. Your late 70s comments being less deep than the 82-86 era is a complete joke. Austin played far better tennis in 1979 than she ever did from 1982 onwards, heck maybe even in 1978 considering what a shadow of herself she was the bit she played in 82 and 83. Goolagong was still a real threat in the late 70s, and even past her prime she is a far better player than the likes of Jaeger ever was. King likewise was still a big threat in the late 70s. Wade was a force in the late 70s. Turnbull was a far better player in the late 70s than she would have been in her early 30s from 1982 onwards where she still somehow was in the top 5 past her prime in that pitiful field.

Evert was not past her prime in 1982-84 - in fact, she was playing better than she had done in the late 70's, and rarely lost to anyone other than Navratilova.

Again shows how little you really know. Evert was beginning to have alot of strange results in these years including back to back losses to Jaeger on clay, including a thumping in the French Open semis (although I suppose you will laughably try to turn that into how great Jaeger supposably was); a lopsided thumping by Manuela Maleeva in the Rome final of 84, a straight sets loss to Garrison in a tier 1 final on clay. Also even in the event you were right (which you arent of course) then in that case Evert must really be better than Navratilova considering she apparently had a 12 year prime while Martina according to her ardent fans especialy had only a 4 year one.

Mandlikova was not overrated, either.

Sure if peak level of play is the only thing a player should be judged by, and nothing else. In that case Safin would be one of the mens GOATs too.

I could go on about the other players listed in your post, but the bottom line is that you are indulging in your favorite pastime of trashing the players who are perceived to be the main rivals of the GOAT claims of your heroes. You even use the same argument "weak competition" - to belittle Navratilova's achievements that you use to attack Federer's.

Navratilova and Federer are similar in that both had weaker competition than other greats. Your point being.

Grow up. Graf does not need this - she was too great a player to have to rely on such arguments.

LOL get over yourself. My post had nothing to do with Graf. I have never said Graf had the toughest competition of anyone (clearly tougher competition than during the Navratilova reign but that goes for nearly everyone), and I have said in the past Evert, younger Serena, younger Venus, and even Connolly are some of those who faced the toughest competition of anyone. My post was in defense of Serena who gets so much unwarranted thrashing from facing a weak field from many of the old timers especialy, when some other greats like Navratilova in 82-86 especialy faced arguably an even weaker field during their dominance. Plus that the weak field Serena has faced has only lasted for 3-4 of her slams so far, and the field from 1999-2003 especialy was one of the deepest in history (and probably tougher than any field Graf faced also if it makes you happy).

federerfanatic
10-09-2009, 10:36 PM
Plus sheīs not even that from Navratilova or Evert as you would like her to be. In the end what counts is the number of gs you have and nobody will ask how you got them, except maybe you :lol:

If gs are what count as you state then Serena is still light years behind Navratilova or Evert. 18 >>> 11 last I checked, and I can ensure you Serena will never win close to 18 slams especialy now with Henin and Clijsters back. Not to mention Chris especialy lost out on some additional slams since the Australian Open wasnt fully valued as a slam by the players in the 70s and she skipped the French Open 3 times in the 70s due to WTT commitments.

Dolphina
10-10-2009, 05:06 AM
If gs are what count as you state then Serena is still light years behind Navratilova or Evert. 18 >>> 11 last I checked, and I can ensure you Serena will never win close to 18 slams especialy now with Henin and Clijsters back. Not to mention Chris especialy lost out on some additional slams since the Australian Open wasnt fully valued as a slam by the players in the 70s and she skipped the French Open 3 times in the 70s due to WTT commitments.

Okay, I admit you know the tennis history better than me, I thought they had 16.
But I believe, that Serena will still win a couple of GSs, sheīs still hungry.
But itīs the same thing like with your ensuring me sheīll not come close, we canīt say that!
Clijsters imo is beatable for Serena and with Henin, I mean she hasnīt even returned yet:-?

federerfanatic
10-10-2009, 06:03 AM
Okay, I admit you know the tennis history better than me, I thought they had 16.
But I believe, that Serena will still win a couple of GSs, sheīs still hungry.
But itīs the same thing like with your ensuring me sheīll not come close, we canīt say that!
Clijsters imo is beatable for Serena and with Henin, I mean she hasnīt even returned yet:-?

I never said Serena wont win anymore slams. However she wont come close to 18. The absolute most she will win is 15, and most likely not that many (she has 11). Clijsters isnt unbeatable and we havent seen Henin yet, but Serena is not the player she used to be. She struggles alot to win slams even over the weak field without those two, so she will hardly be piling up the slams with those 2 back.

Dolphina
10-10-2009, 10:54 AM
but Serena is not the player she used to be.

Agree with that.
Still I think 15 would be close to 18, but thatīs just me:)

Joe Pike
10-12-2009, 11:22 AM
... milar to Shriver, but was in her 30s by the time 1982-1984 rolled around. The rest of the field sucked. You cant even count Austin who was finished after 1981. Players like Hanika, Bunge, Jordan, Durie, Kohde Kilsch, Potter, were hopeless. Glorified journeywomen who made their way into the top 10 for extended periods, and some even into the top 5, due to the painfully weak field . Steffi Graf at only ages 14 and 15 was already slapping most of those women silly (Durie was the only one who held her own vs a pre pubescent Graf at that age). ...

Before her 16th birthday Graf had beaten exactly TWO top-10 players:
Gadusek (# 10) in Berlin 1984
Kohde-Kilsch (#8 ) in Filderstadt 1984