PDA

View Full Version : Why pronate???


callen3615
10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
Ive been playing for about 4 months seriously. I used to hit a pancake serve with an eastern grip. I got pretty consistent with it. Being able to hit in the 90s and get probably half in. I started playing with better players that told me I needed to hit with a continental grip and "pronate". I started doing this about 2 months ago and Im confused. I struggle to hit flat serves. Most have side spin and kick out wide. Almost like a slice. I have figured out that my racquet fails to get flat when I am serving. It hits the ball like you would want to hit a slice serve. I dont know how to correct this, Im practicing alot and Im not improving. I have lost alot of power on my first serve and its hurting me alot in matches. Any advice? Part of me wants to go back to pancaking serves again but Ive put so much time into this pronation BS that I want to get it right.

fuzz nation
10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Pronation BS indeed!

Pronation is something that naturally happens when other things in a tennis shot are done right. For the serve, this includes the right grip, setup, and swing path, but there are other details, too.

You don't need to worry about actively doing it by itself. Yeah, it's discussed here a lot, but I strongly encourage you to dismiss it.

ubermeyer
10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
pronation is natural

when you hit hard with a proper grip it will come

callen3615
10-08-2009, 05:37 PM
Are you serious? So is there something I can change in my setup or something to make me pronate correctly? All I think about is what my wrist is doing.

callen3615
10-08-2009, 05:38 PM
pronation is natural

when you hit hard with a proper grip it will come


Im using continental. My swing path is the same as my topspin swing. Is that wrong?

VGP
10-08-2009, 05:48 PM
Go get some instruction from a qualified teaching professional.

user92626
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
callen,
Although I never started out with the pancake grip, I understand your problem completely because I also had gone thru trying to make sense of flat serve/contact.

It's very hard to change grip and then maintain the flat serving style. I recommend that you stay with the slicey for a while. Soon you'll be familiar with the new posture and slicing enough that you know how to decrease it, thus flatter out .

Also, the way I got to flat serve was...do a reverse. :) Hold in conti grip -- figure out how you would smack the ball (relatively) powerfully and flatly from 2 ft from contact point -- then reverse the motion to the backscratch position using the body. That's it.

SFrazeur
10-08-2009, 06:07 PM
Will of FYB Explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

-SF

jmjmkim
10-08-2009, 06:09 PM
FYB is great.

crystal_clear
10-08-2009, 06:12 PM
pronation is natural

when you hit hard with a proper grip it will come

For me pronation is unnatural. I have to consciously remind myself to "pronate (twist my arm)" just before the contact point. I will hit spin serves for sure if I don't pronate.

My serves get more pace now after I pronate.

rich s
10-08-2009, 06:15 PM
pronating on the serve increases racquet head speed and increases the pace of the ball........

NickH87
10-08-2009, 06:23 PM
I used pancakes and had amazing results my first 5 months of tennis. People kept telling me to serve properly so I dropped and and have been trying to learn for the past month. I struggle to the point where I dont even try during matches because I cant get them in so I have to 2nd serve all my serves and its tough to win. I wanted to go back to pancake and now I cant so I have nothing.

Lsmkenpo
10-08-2009, 06:25 PM
I struggle to hit flat serves. Most have side spin and kick out wide. Almost like a slice. I have figured out that my racquet fails to get flat when I am serving. It hits the ball like you would want to hit a slice serve. I dont know how to correct this, Im practicing alot and Im not improving. .

Try simplifying your motion to get the correct feel of contacting the ball cleanly using the continental grip and pronation. Here is how:

Try practicing some serves with your racquet already in the back scratch position and on edge,with your elbow pointing up
http://info.specialolympics.org/NR/rdonlyres/e2vfb3xripfbx7qo3on4mmrnat4crgzrufltgu443w4lzk5a2c 5gawaznawjbgq4h2wubjmur6o7vnqzzquwvbxtz4b/back+scratch+position.jpg

Now just swing up with the racquet on edge, last 1/4 of the motion square the face of the racquet to the ball to make contact(pronation). You should be able to hit a good serve starting right out of this exaggerated back scratch position.


Once you get a feel for this, you can go back and use a full service motion, make sure you don't lose the basic principals, elbow is pointed up, racquet is on edge towards the ball, square the racquet face to the ball (pronate) right before impact. Stay relaxed, relaxed muscles move and react faster, that is what gives your serve speed and power.

Djokovicfan4life
10-08-2009, 06:34 PM
Trust me, you will regret it if you go back to your frying pan serve. It took me awhile to get used to it as well, but it's worth the time and effort, for sure.

Even if you can hit a passable pancake first serve, your spin will always be very limited, making it impossible to develop a strong and reliable second serve.

If you're hitting too much spin you can play around with your toss a bit and see if that helps. I would suggest tossing a little further into the court around the 12 o'clock position.

Try to visualize your racquet coming more straight towards the court into the ball rather than from the side of the ball like it would for a slice serve.

Don't give up on the continental grip. Believe me, you'll be happier in the long run.

Hope this helps,

Matt

SuperDuy
10-08-2009, 06:35 PM
what does pronate mean?

wyutani
10-08-2009, 06:38 PM
what does pronate mean?

smething about bending of the wrist. explaining in sciece would sound painful but its perfectly natural.

Djokovicfan4life
10-08-2009, 06:41 PM
Pronation means that your wrist/forearm rotate counterclockwise (for righties). It is not a snap of the wrist as some people think.

Pronation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buUs2xoEzI0)

NickH87
10-08-2009, 06:50 PM
I dont pancake my second serve, I hold it almost like an eastern forehand grip and it works very well, its a good top spin serve.

NickH87
10-08-2009, 06:58 PM
I dont have money to throw around for a pro or coach to teach me so I figure I will go with what works than try to be a superstar and do everything the "right" way.

SFrazeur
10-08-2009, 07:19 PM
Teaching Serve Pronation by Nick Bollettieri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZd1N3Mv1A

callen3615
10-08-2009, 07:45 PM
Will of FYB Explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

-SF

Yes this is where I learned it. I just cant seem to do it at speed. My wrist doesnt pronate soon enough.

Lsmkenpo
10-08-2009, 08:02 PM
Yes this is where I learned it. I just cant seem to do it at speed. My wrist doesnt pronate soon enough.

That is why I gave you instructions to simplify the motion so you get the timing and correct swing path to the ball down easier, before you try a full service motion.

NickH87
10-08-2009, 08:02 PM
Good video, helps me understand it better so hopefully if it doesnt rain tomorrow I can keep that in mind.

HunterST
10-08-2009, 09:21 PM
How has no one called this guy out on saying he can serve above 90 mph with only 4 months of experience, and with an eastern grip no less?

Trust me, no way after 4 months and a frying pan grip that you're serving in the 90s. Probably more like high 50s or 60s.

ubermeyer
10-08-2009, 10:14 PM
Im using continental. My swing path is the same as my topspin swing. Is that wrong?

I thought you hit eastern... Anyway, if your swing path is the same as your topspin swing, they are going to be topspin serves of course. I advise you to learn flat serves first, it is easiest to pronate. In fact, you may already be pronating without realizing, which is good. If other people think you aren't, they might be wrong.

btw I agree with the guy above, there's no way you've been playing for 4 months and serve in the 90s relatively consistently with an eastern grip...

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-08-2009, 11:03 PM
Ive been playing for about 4 months seriously. I used to hit a pancake serve with an eastern grip. I got pretty consistent with it. Being able to hit in the 90s and get probably half in. I started playing with better players that told me I needed to hit with a continental grip and "pronate". I started doing this about 2 months ago and Im confused. I struggle to hit flat serves. Most have side spin and kick out wide. Almost like a slice. I have figured out that my racquet fails to get flat when I am serving. It hits the ball like you would want to hit a slice serve. I dont know how to correct this, Im practicing alot and Im not improving. I have lost alot of power on my first serve and its hurting me alot in matches. Any advice? Part of me wants to go back to pancaking serves again but Ive put so much time into this pronation BS that I want to get it right.

Pronation gets the racket moving through the ball as quickly as possible. It is how you generate maximum racket head speed.

Also, note that to win matches in the long run, you must lose matches now for the sake of long term improvement. One handers generally lose a lot of matches at the junior level, yet one handers on the tour are very successful and quite large in numbers. It just takes longer and is harder to develop a good one hander.

callen3615
10-09-2009, 07:13 AM
How has no one called this guy out on saying he can serve above 90 mph with only 4 months of experience, and with an eastern grip no less?

Trust me, no way after 4 months and a frying pan grip that you're serving in the 90s. Probably more like high 50s or 60s.

Ive been playing on and off for about 10 years, never seriously. Now im taking it serious. My dad has played his whole life and he told me how fast I was serving. I really dont know how fast it is.

NickH87
10-09-2009, 07:48 AM
Its really not that hard to hit 80-90's with a pancake serve. Of course the % that it stays in and hits that MPH is very low. When I started I would put everything into it and if it went in it was a bomb, if it missed it was bad. But with practice I started getting it in more but I stopped because it hurt my shoulder.

samalo0
10-09-2009, 07:49 AM
They are right about pronation. It's not something you need to think about. If you get on FYB and follow the steps of a serve, in the last part where you are getting ready to swing up at the ball, just make sure that you arm is very loose and that you feel the racquet in your hand like you are balancing it there; like you are holding a stick of butter my coach has told me. As you swing up at the ball with a loose arm, wrist, and hand (but be sure not to throw the racquet), you arm naturally turns over and you will pronate. If you try and force pronation, it will mess up your timing and you will be thinking about it all the time.

I find feeling the racquet balance (almost like you put the butt cap in your palm and are balancing the racquet like a baton or something) makes it much easier to racquet drop and swing through the ball without tensing my arm and body, which stops you from pronating.

Two things you can do to imagine this as well - think of throwing a baseball or a spear. You don't think about pronating, but you will do it. It's just forearm rotation.

Here is an interesting article/picture:

http://www.**************.com/serve-technique.html

The truth is - you can go back to your frying pan serve. You just won't be able to get out of around 3.5 NTRP. So depending on what you want to do in tennis, it is really up to you. I play some 3.0-3.5's that frying pan it and they do fine, but at higher levels, service becomes very important, and someone without a decent serve can't compete.

Steve

samalo0
10-09-2009, 07:50 AM
They are right about pronation. It's not something you need to think about. If you get on FYB and follow the steps of a serve, in the last part where you are getting ready to swing up at the ball, just make sure that you arm is very loose and that you feel the racquet in your hand like you are balancing it there; like you are holding a stick of butter my coach has told me. As you swing up at the ball with a loose arm, wrist, and hand (but be sure not to throw the racquet), you arm naturally turns over and you will pronate. If you try and force pronation, it will mess up your timing and you will be thinking about it all the time.

I find feeling the racquet balance (almost like you put the butt cap in your palm and are balancing the racquet like a baton or something) makes it much easier to racquet drop and swing through the ball without tensing my arm and body, which stops you from pronating.

Two things you can do to imagine this as well - think of throwing a baseball or a spear. You don't think about pronating, but you will do it. It's just forearm rotation.

Here is an interesting article/picture:

http://www.**************.com/serve-technique.html

The truth is - you can go back to your frying pan serve. You just won't be able to get out of around 3.5 NTRP. So depending on what you want to do in tennis, it is really up to you. I play some 3.0-3.5's that frying pan it and they do fine, but at higher levels, service becomes very important, and someone without a decent serve can't compete.

Steve

Sorry - put t e n n i s m i n d g a m e where the *'s are. Not sure why TW would block that website, I don't know if he sells anything.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-09-2009, 08:39 AM
How has no one called this guy out on saying he can serve above 90 mph with only 4 months of experience, and with an eastern grip no less?

Trust me, no way after 4 months and a frying pan grip that you're serving in the 90s. Probably more like high 50s or 60s.

You sir, do not know how easy it is to serve with a live arm, a good toss, and reasonable form, all achievable in 4 months.

Though yeah... He probably hit around 70s unless he was a good baseball pitcher. They can do it no problem if you teach them how to serve, because they have live arms! Supposedly so did I in the opinion of some... Kinda of doubt it though. :(

NickH87
10-09-2009, 09:22 AM
You sir, do not know how easy it is to serve with a live arm, a good toss, and reasonable form, all achievable in 4 months.

Though yeah... He probably hit around 70s unless he was a good baseball pitcher. They can do it no problem if you teach them how to serve, because they have live arms! Supposedly so did I in the opinion of some... Kinda of doubt it though. :(

I played baseball for 15 years, short stop, pitcher, and center field. That probably translated into have a good right arm, but poor form hurt it so thats why I am trying to learn proper technique even though I suck at it lol.

HunterST
10-09-2009, 09:34 AM
You sir, do not know how easy it is to serve with a live arm, a good toss, and reasonable form, all achievable in 4 months.

Though yeah... He probably hit around 70s unless he was a good baseball pitcher. They can do it no problem if you teach them how to serve, because they have live arms! Supposedly so did I in the opinion of some... Kinda of doubt it though. :(

A good toss, good form, and a live arm are things that take a long time to develop. Otherwise, everyone would be serving 100mph. Also, if he's using an eastern grip on the serve, chances are his form isn't impeccable.

I've heard the baseball player thing but I'm not sure I buy it. I think serves close to 100mph are much rarer than people think.

SFrazeur
10-11-2009, 09:52 AM
While in Japanese this video has some great 1/2000 high speed video of serving that shows pronation quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmO7LQz1vyE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

-SF

LeeD
10-11-2009, 11:17 AM
Read DJ's post again....
You twist from the shoulder, elbow, and some loose wrist, allowing the racketface to close onto the ball for a solid FLAT no spin serve. The racket is held out at an angle to your forearm, so the rotating, the pronation, just adds extra speed to the rackethead.
Since only about 99% of the top players 4.0 and above use this on their serves, you might consider figuring it out too.....or maybe not, if you need to reinvent the wheel for yourself and not learn from history.

crystal_clear
10-19-2009, 09:13 AM
Teaching Serve Pronation by Nick Bollettieri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZd1N3Mv1A

Nick talked little about pronation in Sonic Serve video.

Nellie
10-19-2009, 10:26 AM
Do not confuse pronation (rotation of the wrist, relative to your arm) with wrist extension (flexing of the wrist forward).

With a continental grip, you need the pronation because you are leading with the edge of the racquet and will hit the ball with the frame if your dont twist the racquet at the last second to open the face and point the strings to the ball. It is very natural motion, especially if you finish low, to the backhand side.

crystal_clear
10-19-2009, 09:07 PM
Do not confuse pronation (rotation of the wrist, relative to your arm) with wrist extension (flexing of the wrist forward).

With a continental grip, you need the pronation because you are leading with the edge of the racquet and will hit the ball with the frame if your dont twist the racquet at the last second to open the face and point the strings to the ball. It is very natural motion, especially if you finish low, to the backhand side.
You are right.

I can pronate to serve wide at ad.court but I have problem to serve to the center(flat) at ad. court. Any tips?

wyutani
10-19-2009, 09:08 PM
the ball wont come down w/o pronation.

Counter
10-20-2009, 07:53 AM
Hi, a question:

At which point in the forward swing (i.e., the movement up and forward starting from the back scratch position and ending at contact) should you start pronating? Right after you've left the back scratch? Or only just before contact? Or somewhere in between?

Thanks!

Nellie
10-20-2009, 09:08 AM
You are right.

I can pronate to serve wide at ad.court but I have problem to serve to the center(flat) at ad. court. Any tips?

If you move the toss slightly forward (a few cm's will make a difference), you may have better luck serving to your left (if you are a righty).

I find it is better to control placement with the toss instead of doing too much with the motion (too much change will kill your consistency)

Also, this is very good for disguising your shots because the movement of the toss front and back is hard to pick up as the receive

Nellie
10-20-2009, 09:10 AM
Hi, a question:

At which point in the forward swing (i.e., the movement up and forward starting from the back scratch position and ending at contact) should you start pronating? Right after you've left the back scratch? Or only just before contact? Or somewhere in between?

Thanks!

Delay as much as possible, until the racquet is over your shoulder. This helps build energy at contact to give you more velocity on the serve.

SystemicAnomaly
10-20-2009, 10:41 AM
Hi, a question:

At which point in the forward swing (i.e., the movement up and forward starting from the back scratch position and ending at contact) should you start pronating? Right after you've left the back scratch? Or only just before contact? Or somewhere in between?

Thanks!

It does not happen right after the back scratch, but some time later as the arm extends up toward the ball. The exact timing and degree of pronation will depend on the type of serve being implemented. The most pronounced (and abrupt?) pronation is seen on flatter serves. Take a look at the slow motion video that previous users have provided.

meticulous
10-20-2009, 11:16 AM
Does pronation necessary for SECOND SERVE?

SystemicAnomaly
10-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Does pronation necessary for SECOND SERVE?

Yes, it should be employed for all serves. However, there is less pronation on spin serves.

topher.juan
10-20-2009, 02:11 PM
You can't hit a pancake serve with an eastern backhand grip, you HAVE to pronate to pancake it. The only way you can pancake it without pronating is with a western grip.

Djokovicfan4life
10-20-2009, 02:14 PM
You can't hit a pancake serve with an eastern backhand grip, you HAVE to pronate to pancake it. The only way you can pancake it without pronating is with a western grip.

I think he meant he used to pancake it with an eastern forehand grip.

robby c
10-20-2009, 02:39 PM
Important key in Nick's discussion and to this thread:
Hit up on the serve. Practice serving from well behind the baseline. At first aim for other fence, then bring it slowly into the court, and finally into the service box.
I never try to pronate, I just hit up on the ball.
If you can throw a ball you are pronating.
Make sure you aren't tossing the ball to the left or too much in front. Start the toss to the side and then foward.
A good teaching pro can show you how in one lesson.
Money well spent.
Robby C

ryangoring
10-21-2009, 06:48 AM
I got the perfect one on pronation.
Here in this video, it gives you the reasons of pronation and effects of it:
http://www.coachkyriltennis.com/revealed.php

sinnetklat
10-22-2009, 12:34 AM
Few years ago, I was playing with a friend from whom I heard about pronation for the first time. Then, I thought it was sth totally new. I asked him to learn his advice on applying pronation.
He said when I served naturally, it was already done.

jwbarrientos
10-22-2009, 05:56 AM
FYB is great.

Is the best internet tool I found to improve my game, the other one is this forum :mrgreen:

SystemicAnomaly
10-22-2009, 07:13 AM
Few years ago, I was playing with a friend from whom I heard about pronation for the first time. Then, I thought it was sth totally new. I asked him to learn his advice on applying pronation.
He said when I served naturally, it was already done.

Many players who employ a proper service will pronate naturally. Many other however, will not (even with a proper grip). For this latter group, simple instuctions on pronation are usually required.

chess9
10-22-2009, 07:24 AM
This discussion is not focusing on the important issue: SHOULDER HEALTH. Frying pan serve is death to your shoulder, and possibly your elbow. If you are serving very hard with the frying pan serve you almost certainly will 'enjoy' the benefits sooner or later.

Do that which is most physiologically adaptive.

-Robert

Bungalo Bill
10-22-2009, 08:46 AM
Ive been playing for about 4 months seriously. I used to hit a pancake serve with an eastern grip. I got pretty consistent with it. Being able to hit in the 90s and get probably half in. I started playing with better players that told me I needed to hit with a continental grip and "pronate". I started doing this about 2 months ago and Im confused. I struggle to hit flat serves. Most have side spin and kick out wide. Almost like a slice. I have figured out that my racquet fails to get flat when I am serving. It hits the ball like you would want to hit a slice serve. I dont know how to correct this, Im practicing alot and Im not improving. I have lost alot of power on my first serve and its hurting me alot in matches. Any advice? Part of me wants to go back to pancaking serves again but Ive put so much time into this pronation BS that I want to get it right.

Dude, stop. Stop the pronation stuff, please. This often takes you into an illusion of trying to get something down that your arm just does naturally because that is how it works. People have talked here a bunch about this pronation stuff and although it is great for stroke analysis, it is debatable whether it is something that should be emphasized in a lesson do to how the arm naturally pronates. It becomes just one more thing to think about in a complicated stroke to begin with.

Pronation happens even on a slice serve.

You just need to allow your arm to work naturally and that might be an issue with you because you attempted to force something into your swing.

Unlearning something is hard. It is tough to overcome. It is because you have engrained a certain way to do it and your mind doesnt want to give it up. So you try to force it only to get more and more frustrated. This is why I teach the Continental right away, pass or fail, success or failure, I will not put a student in the Eastern grip no matter how much they complain about it.

Can you throw a ball? A football? The throwing motion is what you need to go back too. The arm works naturally close to how you throw a ball and swing and hit a ball on the serve. The issue is incorporating your timing of all the necessary body flow and technique to hit the ball on time and cleanly.

So how would you practice this?

1. You can use the old ball in a sock drill or ball attached to a rope drill and swing it around and around. You can work your rocking motion in there and rythym. Rythym is extremely important in the serve motion.

2. You can also stick a ball in a fence high enough to slowly, very slowly practice how your arm would naturally work and hit a ball.

3. You can simply forget about the service boxes and the net and just loosen up, relax like crazy, toss the ball up and just hit it.

4. You can also try to hit the ball with the blade of your racquet. Many times you will see your arm naturally pronate during this drill if you are paying attention.

5263
10-22-2009, 09:20 AM
People have talked here a bunch about this pronation stuff and although it is great for stroke analysis, it is debatable whether it is something that should be emphasized in a lesson do to how the arm naturally pronates. It becomes just one more thing to think about in a complicated stroke to begin with.

Pronation happens even on a slice serve.

You just need to allow your arm to work naturally and that might be an issue with you because you attempted to force something into your swing.



Agreed, and about the only need to mention it in a lesson is let them know that it should happen as a result of a good serving motion, along with correcting anything they might do to block it from happening.

crystal_clear
10-22-2009, 05:20 PM
If you move the toss slightly forward (a few cm's will make a difference), you may have better luck serving to your left (if you are a righty).

I find it is better to control placement with the toss instead of doing too much with the motion (too much change will kill your consistency)

Also, this is very good for disguising your shots because the movement of the toss front and back is hard to pick up as the receive
"toss forward" you meant toss more in front of you? I will try it next time. I tried the body motion to hit to the center and it usually lands on the wrong court (too much to the left.)

Delay as much as possible, until the racquet is over your shoulder. This helps build energy at contact to give you more velocity on the serve.

Thanks for the advice. I have the same question too.

crystal_clear
10-22-2009, 09:45 PM
This discussion is not focusing on the important issue: SHOULDER HEALTH. Frying pan serve is death to your shoulder, and possibly your elbow. If you are serving very hard with the frying pan serve you almost certainly will 'enjoy' the benefits sooner or later.

Do that which is most physiologically adaptive.

-Robert
Very good point~ Totally agreed~

crystal_clear
10-22-2009, 09:46 PM
Yes, it should be employed for all serves. However, there is less pronation on spin serves.

I didn't pronate for second serve. :(((

crystal_clear
10-22-2009, 09:52 PM
Many players who employ a proper service will pronate naturally. Many other however, will not (even with a proper grip). For this latter group, simple instuctions on pronation are usually required.

If you learn proper serve with a coach from the begining, you might pronate natually. However, if you didn't learn pronate from the begining, it is not so natural to pronate later in life. That's why there are many recreational players have natural serve -- fryingpan serve.

crystal_clear
10-22-2009, 09:58 PM
Dude, stop. Stop the pronation stuff, please. This often takes you into an illusion of trying to get something down that your arm just does naturally because that is how it works. People have talked here a bunch about this pronation stuff and although it is great for stroke analysis, it is debatable whether it is something that should be emphasized in a lesson do to how the arm naturally pronates. It becomes just one more thing to think about in a complicated stroke to begin with.

Pronation happens even on a slice serve.

You just need to allow your arm to work naturally and that might be an issue with you because you attempted to force something into your swing.

Unlearning something is hard. It is tough to overcome. It is because you have engrained a certain way to do it and your mind doesnt want to give it up. So you try to force it only to get more and more frustrated. This is why I teach the Continental right away, pass or fail, success or failure, I will not put a student in the Eastern grip no matter how much they complain about it.

Can you throw a ball? A football? The throwing motion is what you need to go back too. The arm works naturally close to how you throw a ball and swing and hit a ball on the serve. The issue is incorporating your timing of all the necessary body flow and technique to hit the ball on time and cleanly.

So how would you practice this?

1. You can use the old ball in a sock drill or ball attached to a rope drill and swing it around and around. You can work your rocking motion in there and rythym. Rythym is extremely important in the serve motion.

2. You can also stick a ball in a fence high enough to slowly, very slowly practice how your arm would naturally work and hit a ball.

3. You can simply forget about the service boxes and the net and just loosen up, relax like crazy, toss the ball up and just hit it.

4. You can also try to hit the ball with the blade of your racquet. Many times you will see your arm naturally pronate during this drill if you are paying attention.Relax my hitting arm really help me with the racquet acceleration and serve harder. Does the smaller and lighter racquet better for increasing racquet speed? Does my oversize nCode n3 bad for racquet acceleration? Thanks BB.

tricky
10-22-2009, 10:47 PM
If you learn proper serve with a coach from the begining, you might pronate natually. However, if you didn't learn pronate from the begining, it is not so natural to pronate later in life.

This is how I see it:

The main issue is whether the person has really learned the shoulder-over-shoulder (or cartwheel) motion. Pronation itself is a natural and necessary function of this service motion, because that's the only way to avoid hitting the ball with the frame. However, if a person has adopted a frying pan motion, then they're not really executing the cartwheel motion. And pronation isn't necessary to hit the ball. It's pragmatically useless to discuss pronation, in the same sense it would be useless to discuss WW action if somebody is executing a closed-stanced classical FH, You could add it, but it doesn't solve the original problem. It only complicates the original problem.

Most people are in-between. They have elements of the cartwheel shoulder-over-shoulder motion down. But their balance may be off. Their mass must move into the court through both the toss and windup. This affects both the degree and timing of the pronation. Again, manipulating the pronation itself as you reach the contact point doesn't solve the original problem. It only complicates the fact that the actual cartwheel motion isn't really all there.

Bungalo Bill
10-22-2009, 10:59 PM
If you learn proper serve with a coach from the begining, you might pronate natually. However, if you didn't learn pronate from the begining, it is not so natural to pronate later in life. That's why there are many recreational players have natural serve -- fryingpan serve.

I dont know about this. Even young people would rather start learning to serve with the eastern grip and the waiters serve. I just have not seen this limited to older people or adults. It is natural for the brain to want to put the racquet face square than think it is going to square during a serve motion when it senses the racquet face is more sideways to the ball. The brain simply doesnt understand its own arm motion.

Coordination is what we are dealing with here which if you are involved in teaching any kind of sports, certain movements take more time to learn and understand then others. For tennis, hitting with a continental grip takes time, practice, and working on the coordination in doing it.

I have not met one person that just gets it right away regardless of age. The natural part of learning to serve is pronation. Therefore, I rarely if ever mention it to a student. The coach should be working on timing, swinging, and using tools like hitting the slice serve first to help a player master the serve with the Continental grip.

When you put the tennis racquet in someone's hand in a Continental grip, no matter how logical it seems or how well the student understands the concepts, the brain will not understand what the body does naturally until it learns it itself. Therefore, repetition and discpline in sticking with it is appropriate.

It does not register in the human brain that the arm naturally pronates and the racquet will square during the swinging motion. That is why people want to hit with the waiters grip. Because the brain can sense the racquet face is turned square to the ball before it starts to go up to the ball. Coaches need to train the brain on how the arm works without complicating it with the details it does not need to know. Otherwise, it becomes more of a focus than the continuous motion itself.

crystal_clear
10-25-2009, 06:06 AM
This is how I see it:

The main issue is whether the person has really learned the shoulder-over-shoulder (or cartwheel) motion. Pronation itself is a natural and necessary function of this service motion, because that's the only way to avoid hitting the ball with the frame. However, if a person has adopted a frying pan motion, then they're not really executing the cartwheel motion. And pronation isn't necessary to hit the ball. It's pragmatically useless to discuss pronation, in the same sense it would be useless to discuss WW action if somebody is executing a closed-stanced classical FH, You could add it, but it doesn't solve the original problem. It only complicates the original problem.

Most people are in-between. They have elements of the cartwheel shoulder-over-shoulder motion down. But their balance may be off. Their mass must move into the court through both the toss and windup. This affects both the degree and timing of the pronation. Again, manipulating the pronation itself as you reach the contact point doesn't solve the original problem. It only complicates the fact that the actual cartwheel motion isn't really all there.Thank you tricky for the advice on the cartwheel action. I feel if I turn body more before contact I can serve harder. I will pay attention to do the shoulder-over-shoulder things.