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Chopin
10-09-2009, 01:29 PM
I'd like to point out to you guys that Federer has one of the most effective second serves in the game.

Second Serve Points Won In 2009

Pos. Player % Matches
1 Federer, Roger 58 61
2 Roddick, Andy 58 59

EDIT: I guess my point is this: if Federer's second were really so weak (as some posters have argued), wouldn't guys jump on it? Would he really be #1 on tour in second points won if it were really a liability?

I'd also like to clarify that I do think his second serve is "the best," but rather that it's among the best.

Kind regards,
Chopin

Chopin
10-09-2009, 01:30 PM
Aces

1 Karlovic, Ivo 773 38
2 Roddick, Andy 753 59
3 Querrey, Sam 739 64
4 Federer, Roger 580 61

Chopin
10-09-2009, 01:31 PM
1st Serve Points

Pos. Player % Matches
1 Karlovic, Ivo 85 38
2 Querrey, Sam 79 64
3 Federer, Roger 79 61
4 Roddick, Andy 79 59

Cesc Fabregas
10-09-2009, 01:33 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

Polvorin
10-09-2009, 01:56 PM
It's true that players don't often attack his second serve, so I'd say it's pretty good. It doesn't put him at a disadvantage like the second serves of some players.

We have to keep in mind, though, that the % of points won also testifies to how well he backs up the serve, not simply how good or bad the serve is.

fed_rulz
10-09-2009, 01:57 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

Roddick's first serve win % captures his ace count as well (assuming most aces are served on 1st serves). So A-Rod's first serve win % is equal to Fed's despite his higher ace count :) - Epic logic/reasoning/deduction fail.

kOaMaster
10-09-2009, 02:22 PM
nah, I think he's right. first serve points do not only include aces and service winners, also the further rally if there is. and we do not have to argue that federer is the better player. this statistic just shows that federer is the dominant player with one of the best serves in the field at the moment.

r2473
10-09-2009, 02:52 PM
Laver has the best second serve.

Blinkism
10-09-2009, 02:57 PM
Federer is definitely one of the best servers out there.

I'm surprised his 2nd serve numbers are so high in 2009, though.

Thanks for the info, Chopin!

RoddickAce
10-09-2009, 03:02 PM
And something that's also interesting, Nadal is at #3 for second serve points won, tied with John Isner at 57%, but Nadal played more matches.

P_Agony
10-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Roger's 2nd serve is a beast.

Cup8489
10-09-2009, 03:15 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

wow. the logic you use can't even be called that.

i didn't know aces figured so much into second serve points won? and those whopping two extra matches bends the trend so much that you can reasonably deduce that roddick's serve is better than federer's?

do YOU even know what you're saying?

ubermeyer
10-09-2009, 03:48 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

Karlovic's serve is better than Federer's too... Federer doesn't have to be best at everything

ChrisCrocker
10-09-2009, 03:52 PM
Roddick's first serve win % captures his ace count as well (assuming most aces are served on 1st serves). So A-Rod's first serve win % is equal to Fed's despite his higher ace count :) - Epic logic/reasoning/deduction fail.
Roddick has almost 200 more aces even though he played 2 less games, and has a weaker game than Federer yet both have the same 1st serve winning %. sounds like he has a better serve than federer.
wow. the logic you use can't even be called that.

i didn't know aces figured so much into second serve points won? and those whopping two extra matches bends the trend so much that you can reasonably deduce that roddick's serve is better than federer's?

do YOU even know what you're saying?

he's not talking about 2nd serves being better, he's talking about first serves.

Chopin
10-09-2009, 03:58 PM
Note: I never said his serve was "the best," but rather showed that he uses it quite effectively.

I've never understood the criticism of Federer's second serve and I think the statistics I've provided show volumes.

jamesblakefan#1
10-09-2009, 04:01 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-enVQiknD2U

:lol:

also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QZQe-B4cNI&feature=related

doom
10-09-2009, 05:20 PM
Laver has the best second serve.

Yes he does.

akv89
10-09-2009, 05:24 PM
Roddick, Karlovic, Querrey, Isner, Guccione all have better 1st serves than Federer.

Roddick, Isner, and Karlovic might be the only guys with better 2nd serves than Federer currently, although I'm not sure about Karlovic's 2nd serve.

abmk
10-09-2009, 05:41 PM
^

I'd say fed has a better 2nd serve than Ivo

@ thread : Am not surprised, he has a pretty good 2nd serve and backs it up well ..

abmk
10-09-2009, 05:43 PM
Querry has already played 64 matches this season ? :shock:

ubermeyer
10-09-2009, 06:30 PM
Roddick, Karlovic, Querrey, Isner, Guccione all have better 1st serves than Federer.

Roddick, Isner, and Karlovic might be the only guys with better 2nd serves than Federer currently, although I'm not sure about Karlovic's 2nd serve.

Ivo's 2nd is a bit better than Fed's, but he doesn't back it up as effectively because he usually stays back...

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-09-2009, 07:41 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

This is actually a very good argument. And it can be interpreted multiple ways.

For the second serve, the main idea is to not let your opponent get on the offensive right away and let you set the point up. This means you must rally after you hit your second serve, even if you were aggressive with is. So this means both players must get into a rally after hitting a second serve. And we ALL agree that Roddick's ground game is not nearly as good as Federer's. So all else being equal, Roddick shouldn't even come close to Federer in second serve points won. If they both had the exact same second serve and used it in the exact same way, Roddick should still have a lower winning percentage on second serve points no matter how you look at it. But their percentages are EQUAL! The only rational inference that can be made from this evidence is that something is compensating for Roddick's ground game on second serve points. There are only 2 things that Roddick has in these points: his second serve, and his ground game. If his ground game is weaker than Federer's, his second serve must be stronger. For Federer and Roddick to have the same second serve winning percentages, this is the only plausible conclusion available to us.

Bottom line, this evidence proves that Roddick's second serve is better than Federer. This does not necessarily mean that he uses it better than or even as well as Federer, but the overall quality of his second serve is much better (and apparently so much better that he doesn't need to use it nearly as well as Federer does). If you disagree with my logic, prove me wrong.

Now, as for the first serve, this can be interpreted in two ways. But before that, I'd like to present some new evidence which was either overlooked or excluded by the OP that is terribly crucial for both sides to logically continue this argument with all the facts.

1st Serve Percentage

Position / Player / % / Matches Played
2 / Roddick / 70% / 59
21 / Federer / 62% / 61

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/MatchFacts.aspx (Stats taken 10/9/09 at 8:06)

For one, we know that a higher first serve percentage will inevitably lead to more aces. However, Roddick's first serve is 13% higher than Federer's (relatively, which means multiply Federer's serve percentage [62] by 1.129 and you'll get Roddick's [70]). If their serves were the same, then we should expect Federer's average number aces per match to be the same as Roddick's if we have the same percentage.

Federer's average ace count in a match is 9.51
Federer's average ace count if his first serve percentage was 13% higher is still only 10.73

Roddick's average ace count in a match is 12.76.

So Roddick gets 2 more aces in the match compared to Federer if their first serve percent was the same. That's not a lot. Even as it is, it's only a difference of 3.25. Meaning Roddick gets an extra 3 free points in a match compared to Federer. But their first serve winning percentages are the same. So what conclusions can we make from that? Well, assuming 100 points will be played on their serve, Roddick will play 70 points on his first serve, and Federer will play 62. From there, Roddick will win 55 of those points, nearly 13 will be from aces. That means Roddick earns 42 points with his first serve after the opponent got a racket on it. Federer will win 50 points on his first serve, and 9-10 will be from aces (we have to round up to make things simple, so it'll be considered 10 from now on). That means Federer earns 40 points on his serve after the opponent gets a racket on it. Even if we increase that number by 13%, it's still only 45 points, a 3 point difference. But we know Federer's overall game and usage of the serve are far superior to Roddick's, yet despite all that he only wins 3 more points using the combination of his serve and ground game in 100 points! Of course this gap will further increase in a longer match, but that's still not that much. Roddick's serve HAS to be better than Federer's for the gap in points won to be so small. And on Federer's average first serve percentage, Roddick wins more points on serve!

No matter how you look at it, Roddick (as it stands right now) will on average win more points on serve than Federer. Of course, these numbers change drastically when Federer's on the receiving end of those serves.

Now, there are some small out of the ordinary happenings that modify these statistics (second serve aces, service winners, blah blah blah). But looking at these numbers, Roddick does a better job on serve even though the rest of his game isn't as good as Federer's. The conclusion is simple: Roddick's serve is better than Federer's. And you consider average serve speed, Roddick's is an extra 10 mph faster and he still maintains a noticeably higher first serve percentage than Federer.

The other way to interpret this is that Roddick has a more powerful serve, or that his overall service game is better. Aside from when someone gets a good return in, I agree. Roddick having a more powerful serve is self evident, but the numbers show his service game is better. Punch in the numbers, Roddick wins more points on serve.

However, I am not saying that playing against each other, Roddick will eventually win because his serve numbers are so great. If they played each other, Federer's percentages would actually go up! And Roddick's would go down! Why? Because Roddick has a terrible return game while Federer's is excellent. Federer makes you play on your serve and he knows how to serve such that Roddick can't make a dent in his serve.

So overall, against other players on the tour, Roddick is the better server if we go by results and numbers. But Federer clearly uses his serve better, and has a better overall game which totally eclipses Roddick's overall game.

Some of you might've misinterpreted the quoted post because of how it was written. That or you're Federer fans who don't want to believe anything other than Federer is the best at everything.

And as I said, if you can prove me wrong, do it. It'll further everyone's knowledge on the subject.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-09-2009, 07:42 PM
Laver has the best second serve.

He doesn't count. He's a lefty. Haha. XP

EtePras
10-09-2009, 07:47 PM
So Roddick serves more aces than Federer but has played less matches and Roddick wins about the same about of points on his second serve as Federer despite having a much inferior game, this proves that Roddick's serve is much better than Federer's. Thanks Chopin.

but but omg the variety! and teh placement! roddick cant place his serves at all and hits teh same shot every time while federer can hit any type of serve anywhere he wants!!!11

federerGOAT
10-09-2009, 08:17 PM
Roger's 2nd serve is a beast.


Yes I agree, definitely much better than those clowns Pete Sampras or Boris Becker.

lawrence
10-09-2009, 08:28 PM
This is actually a very good argument. And it can be interpreted multiple ways.

For the second serve, the main idea is to not let your opponent get on the offensive right away and let you set the point up. This means you must rally after you hit your second serve, even if you were aggressive with is. So this means both players must get into a rally after hitting a second serve. And we ALL agree that Roddick's ground game is not nearly as good as Federer's. So all else being equal, Roddick shouldn't even come close to Federer in second serve points won. If they both had the exact same second serve and used it in the exact same way, Roddick should still have a lower winning percentage on second serve points no matter how you look at it. But their percentages are EQUAL! The only rational inference that can be made from this evidence is that something is compensating for Roddick's ground game on second serve points. There are only 2 things that Roddick has in these points: his second serve, and his ground game. If his ground game is weaker than Federer's, his second serve must be stronger. For Federer and Roddick to have the same second serve winning percentages, this is the only plausible conclusion available to us.

Bottom line, this evidence proves that Roddick's second serve is better than Federer. This does not necessarily mean that he uses it better than or even as well as Federer, but the overall quality of his second serve is much better (and apparently so much better that he doesn't need to use it nearly as well as Federer does). If you disagree with my logic, prove me wrong.

Now, as for the first serve, this can be interpreted in two ways. But before that, I'd like to present some new evidence which was either overlooked or excluded by the OP that is terribly crucial for both sides to logically continue this argument with all the facts.

1st Serve Percentage

Position / Player / % / Matches Played
2 / Roddick / 70% / 59
21 / Federer / 62% / 61

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/MatchFacts.aspx (Stats taken 10/9/09 at 8:06)

For one, we know that a higher first serve percentage will inevitably lead to more aces. However, Roddick's first serve is 13% higher than Federer's (relatively, which means multiply Federer's serve percentage [62] by 1.129 and you'll get Roddick's [70]). If their serves were the same, then we should expect Federer's average number aces per match to be the same as Roddick's if we have the same percentage.

Federer's average ace count in a match is 9.51
Federer's average ace count if his first serve percentage was 13% higher is still only 10.73

Roddick's average ace count in a match is 12.76.

So Roddick gets 2 more aces in the match compared to Federer if their first serve percent was the same. That's not a lot. Even as it is, it's only a difference of 3.25. Meaning Roddick gets an extra 3 free points in a match compared to Federer. But their first serve winning percentages are the same. So what conclusions can we make from that? Well, assuming 100 points will be played on their serve, Roddick will play 70 points on his first serve, and Federer will play 62. From there, Roddick will win 55 of those points, nearly 13 will be from aces. That means Roddick earns 42 points with his first serve after the opponent got a racket on it. Federer will win 50 points on his first serve, and 9-10 will be from aces (we have to round up to make things simple, so it'll be considered 10 from now on). That means Federer earns 40 points on his serve after the opponent gets a racket on it. Even if we increase that number by 13%, it's still only 45 points, a 3 point difference. But we know Federer's overall game and usage of the serve are far superior to Roddick's, yet despite all that he only wins 3 more points using the combination of his serve and ground game in 100 points! Of course this gap will further increase in a longer match, but that's still not that much. Roddick's serve HAS to be better than Federer's for the gap in points won to be so small. And on Federer's average first serve percentage, Roddick wins more points on serve!

No matter how you look at it, Roddick (as it stands right now) will on average win more points on serve than Federer. Of course, these numbers change drastically when Federer's on the receiving end of those serves.

Now, there are some small out of the ordinary happenings that modify these statistics (second serve aces, service winners, blah blah blah). But looking at these numbers, Roddick does a better job on serve even though the rest of his game isn't as good as Federer's. The conclusion is simple: Roddick's serve is better than Federer's. And you consider average serve speed, Roddick's is an extra 10 mph faster and he still maintains a noticeably higher first serve percentage than Federer.

The other way to interpret this is that Roddick has a more powerful serve, or that his overall service game is better. Aside from when someone gets a good return in, I agree. Roddick having a more powerful serve is self evident, but the numbers show his service game is better. Punch in the numbers, Roddick wins more points on serve.

However, I am not saying that playing against each other, Roddick will eventually win because his serve numbers are so great. If they played each other, Federer's percentages would actually go up! And Roddick's would go down! Why? Because Roddick has a terrible return game while Federer's is excellent. Federer makes you play on your serve and he knows how to serve such that Roddick can't make a dent in his serve.

So overall, against other players on the tour, Roddick is the better server if we go by results and numbers. But Federer clearly uses his serve better, and has a better overall game which totally eclipses Roddick's overall game.

Some of you might've misinterpreted the quoted post because of how it was written. That or you're Federer fans who don't want to believe anything other than Federer is the best at everything.

And as I said, if you can prove me wrong, do it. It'll further everyone's knowledge on the subject.

I can't really disagree with any of your post, but 90% of your essay seems to be about the 1st serve, and it's common knowledge that Roddick's 1st serve is stronger than Federer's 1st serve.
Solid post, but kind of stating the obvious, no?

Cup8489
10-09-2009, 08:39 PM
Roddick has almost 200 more aces even though he played 2 less games, and has a weaker game than Federer yet both have the same 1st serve winning %. sounds like he has a better serve than federer.


he's not talking about 2nd serves being better, he's talking about first serves.

and this thread was about 2nd serves. most people can figure that roddick is one of the best servers on tour...

Polvorin
10-10-2009, 03:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-enVQiknD2U

:lol:

also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QZQe-B4cNI&feature=related

And, contrary to what Mac says in the Sampras video, it wasn't a bad bounce. Nor a fluke.

Here's another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8PIXXGoq24

Jason Vorhees
10-10-2009, 03:09 AM
but but omg the variety! and teh placement! roddick cant place his serves at all and hits teh same shot every time while federer can hit any type of serve anywhere he wants!!!11

Um................................................ .Did you watch wimbledon

Jason Vorhees
10-10-2009, 03:11 AM
Does anyone actually believe that Federer serves better than roddick on 1st and 2nd serves?

I think Karlovic has the best 1st serve and Roddick has the best 2nd serve.

fed_rulz
10-10-2009, 03:55 AM
Roddick has almost 200 more aces even though he played 2 less games, and has a weaker game than Federer yet both have the same 1st serve winning %. sounds like he has a better serve than federer.


he's not talking about 2nd serves being better, he's talking about first serves.

You don't need a good game to win 1st serve points; Fed wins a whole lot of points on unreturnables, or a weak reply, neither of which require a great ground game to back it up. The 2nd serve is a diff story.

Anyways, I wasn't even disputing that Roddick has a better serve or vice versa. All I was trying to do was point out was that his conclusions cannot be arrived at by whatever data he chose to present.

DonBudge
10-10-2009, 04:05 AM
Good Chopin thread.

helloworld
10-10-2009, 05:30 AM
Fed's serve is definitely top 5 in this era, but it's hardly the best of all time.

Jason Vorhees
10-10-2009, 05:56 AM
Fed's serve is definitely top 5 in this era, but it's hardly the best of all time.

karlovic,roddick,ljubicic,isner,querrey,ancic all have better serves than federer. There's many people at this era with better serves.

jamesblakefan#1
10-10-2009, 07:08 AM
karlovic,roddick,ljubicic,isner,querrey,ancic all have better serves than federer. There's many people at this era with better serves.

Federer uses his serve more effectively than many of those players.

Querrey? Ancic? Ljubicic? Definitely put Fed's serve ahead of those guys. Just because he's able to back up his serve with superior ground game. But the serve alone is still a thing of beauty.

sh@de
10-10-2009, 07:22 AM
Karlovic and Roddick have better serves than Fed, I think. I'd rank Fed right up there after those two though.

DownTheLine
10-10-2009, 07:28 AM
Why would federer go for alot on his second serve when he has one of the best ground stroke games and the best All-Around game?

Jason Vorhees
10-10-2009, 09:01 AM
Federer uses his serve more effectively than many of those players.

Querrey? Ancic? Ljubicic? Definitely put Fed's serve ahead of those guys. Just because he's able to back up his serve with superior ground game. But the serve alone is still a thing of beauty.

But i'm not talking about the GROUND GAME. I'm talking about the serve itself, yes, it might look good but who cares. Federer doesn't rank inside the top 10 on serves

Chopin
10-10-2009, 02:19 PM
I guess my point is this: if Federer's second were really so weak (as some posters have argued), wouldn't guys jump on it? Would he really be #1 on tour in second points won if it were really a liability?

ubermeyer
10-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Does anyone actually believe that Federer serves better than roddick on 1st and 2nd serves?

I think Karlovic has the best 1st serve and Roddick has the best 2nd serve.

Isner has a better 2nd than roddick

Chopin
10-10-2009, 06:25 PM
Excellent posting all! Let's keep this thread alive like Chopin's "Funeral March!"

Kind regards,
Chopin

Jason Vorhees
10-11-2009, 02:16 AM
Roddick does have a better 2nd serve than isner, i have even heard players say that they prefer to face roddick's 1st serve than his 2nd serve. I doubt anyone says that about Isner.

NamRanger
10-11-2009, 06:34 AM
I guess my point is this: if Federer's second were really so weak (as some posters have argued), wouldn't guys jump on it? Would he really be #1 on tour in second points won if it were really a liability?



Nadal has an incredibly weak 2nd serve yet for the past 4-5 years he consistently is a leader on the tour for 2nd serve points won.

JeMar
10-11-2009, 06:45 AM
Roddick does have a better 2nd serve than isner, i have even heard players say that they prefer to face roddick's 1st serve than his 2nd serve. I doubt anyone says that about Isner.

Nobody likes Isner's second serve. I've heard plenty of commentators say the same thing about Isner's second serve, most notably in his match against Querrey in Indianapolis. That beast of a serve consistently bounces over six-footer's heads and there's really no safe way of even starting the point in a neutral position.

Cesc Fabregas
10-11-2009, 06:51 AM
Federer's serve is overrated, sure its a very good serve but nowhere near as good as some of his fans claim. Federer's success is down to his forehand and movement mostly.

JeMar
10-11-2009, 06:53 AM
Federer's serve is overrated, sure its a very good serve but nowhere near as good as some of his fans claim. Federer's success is down to his forehand and movement mostly.

I see you waited until the very last second to write your one sensical post of the week.

You had me a little scared for a few days there.

Cesc Fabregas
10-11-2009, 06:57 AM
I see you waited until the very last second to write your one sensical post of the week.

You had me a little scared for a few days there.

Thank you, thank you.

JeMar
10-11-2009, 07:01 AM
Thank you, thank you.

No problem. That was actually a really good point.