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SystemicAnomaly
10-11-2009, 07:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa7zySEgV2g

This is not the shot I'm talking about. The one above is Rafa hitting a standard backhand smash. The shot that I have in mind is where the player rotates the other way to hit a BH overhead (smash or high volley). A right-handed player would rotate CCW to hit a standard BH overhead, but would spin CW to hit the shot that I have in mind. This latter shot is the first specialty ("trick") that I ever mastered (some 30 yrs ago), but never knew what people called it.


Bonus track (this isn't it either):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEsARpxuYTM

.

SystemicAnomaly
10-11-2009, 07:05 AM
Here is Andre hitting CW spin BH returns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ttaIWqbT-U

Now imagine if he was at the net hitting a high overhead version of this shot. That would be the shot that I'm talking about in this thread. Anyone have a name for it?

Ken Honecker
10-11-2009, 07:10 AM
In street parlance it is known as the You Suck So Bad I don't Have to Look at the Net to Beat You Shot. I'm afraid I don't recall the latin translation.

SystemicAnomaly
10-11-2009, 07:43 AM
^ Nice try. Thank you for playing. The shot that I have in mind, not the Agassi shot, is more of a necessity (esp in doubles) rather than a hot-dog shot.

charliefedererer
10-11-2009, 08:02 AM
I'll give it a name.

The Anomamalous Smash.

SystemicAnomaly
10-11-2009, 09:09 AM
^ I can't take credit for the shot. I first saw it in the early 1970s in a tampon TV commercial of all things. It was the coolest thing that I had ever seen (the shot, not the tampon). After seeing that commercial, I knew that I had to learn how to play this game of tennis.

tribunal4555
10-11-2009, 09:45 AM
The inside backhand overhead/high volley ?
:confused: sorry was my best guess lol

Bagumbawalla
10-11-2009, 11:11 AM
I think you would just call it a high backhand volley or a backhand overhead smash.

How you get to the ball is not so relevant as what happens when you make contact.

SystemicAnomaly
10-11-2009, 02:23 PM
I think you would just call it a high backhand volley or a backhand overhead smash.

How you get to the ball is not so relevant as what happens when you make contact.

Kinda like saying that the tweener is just another FH g'stroke. Or why do we make a distinction between a reverse FH, a WW FH and an OTS FH? When the execution of a shot deviates significantly from the norm, we tend to give it a special name, like the "Bucharest Backfire" for instance.

Don't know if the shot I'm talking about already has a name or not.
.

Bagumbawalla
10-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Well, now, you're asking me to think (and possibly be serious). Haven't done that in a while.

As I've mentioned before, tennis is one of the sports that has been around a long time and is still lacking a consistant (or even accurate) vocabulary to describe the various strokes or what really is happening when we execute them. I am actually in favor of coming up with a uniform way of describing shot production, placement, body and court position...

Possibly I misunderstood your description of the stroke you describing, but this is what I imagined- there is a high ball coming to the backhand side- which is either too high to catch with the racket where you are standing-- or you did not have time to react quickly enough--- so you whip around (possibly stepping back as well) making about 3/4 of a revolution (to reach the ball) and then hit a sort of high "swinging" volley or backhand overhead with your back angled toward the net. If that is the case, then that is what I would call it- backhand overhead.

In general, if a person has time to get back and set up then they would hit a conventional overhead smash- so a good percentage of backhand overheads are actually something like what you are describing.

But, possibly I am not visualizing it properly- in that case I will go with the consensus.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Kinda like saying that the tweener is just another FH g'stroke. Or why do we make a distinction between a reverse FH, a WW FH and an OTS FH? When the execution of a shot deviates significantly from the norm, we tend to give it a special name, like the "Bucharest Backfire" for instance.

Don't know if the shot I'm talking about already has a name or not.
.

He's right. It's a standard backhand overhead with a low preparation time and a reverse setup. Basically you're setting up and hitting it in one full motion because you fail to prepare properly (though it's a good compensation). Also, you're turning your shoulders the other way so you have to turn more in that direction to hit your backhand overhead.

It's not all that hard to do. If you master a backhand overhead, you can do it rotating your shoulders in either direction. You just choose to hit it with a reverse shoulder turn. No this would not make it a reverse backhand overhead, to do that you would have to pull off a sky hook with your back facing the net or something...

SystemicAnomaly
10-13-2009, 06:29 AM
^ You trying your best to kill my buzz here, aren't you?

The way I see it, it is not a standard BH overhead. For a right-hander, the standard BH overhead has the player coiling counter-CW (and then sometimes uncoiling a bit) to play the shot. The distinct variation that I'm talking about has the the player spinning around CW instead to play the high BH shot. The mechanics, the way the muscles are recruited, is significantly different. The angular momentum of the CW body spin and the unique timing of the swing are integral parts of this variation.

While it is may easy for you and I, it is not easy for all players to execute. But then, I find the tweener relatively easy to execute as well (as long as I can catch up to the ball). This variation is sufficiently different from the standard BH overhead to warrant its own name.

Kaptain Karl
10-13-2009, 08:53 AM
It's a "Reflex Oops-I'm-Wrong-Footed-BH-Desperation-Overhead." (Or "What the heck? I'll try one of the lowest percentage shots possible and boast about the one-in-one-thousandth that worked!")

- KK

ubermeyer
10-13-2009, 06:10 PM
Kinda like saying that the tweener is just another FH g'stroke. Or why do we make a distinction between a reverse FH, a WW FH and an OTS FH?

the tweener is special because it is hit in the middle of the body, not like a forehand on one side, or a backhand, on the other side.

and the last 3 are still all forehands... so you kind of proved yourself wrong

SystemicAnomaly
10-13-2009, 07:58 PM
the tweener is special because it is hit in the middle of the body, not like a forehand on one side, or a backhand, on the other side.

and the last 3 are still all forehands... so you kind of proved yourself wrong

Not at all. Read that post again. It appears that you missed really the point that I was making. The point is that any time a stroke deviates from the norm in some manner we tend to apply a special name to it.

BTW, the tweener is a type of FH shot because it is hit with the FH face of the racquet. If you hit a BH volley directed at the middle of your chest, it is still a BH even tho' it is on the mid-line of your body.

wyutani
10-13-2009, 08:04 PM
seems common to me. i see this shot everytime i play.

SystemicAnomaly
10-13-2009, 08:12 PM
seems common to me. i see this shot everytime i play.

Are you playing Prince of Tennis?

wyutani
10-13-2009, 08:13 PM
Are you playing Prince of Tennis?

well its common in doubles.

SystemicAnomaly
10-13-2009, 08:18 PM
Yes, it is more common in doubles. But every time? Not talking about the regular BH smash or high BH volley. Taking about a reverse 180 spin to play the ball over your non-dominant shoulder (or high to the side of that shoulder), right?

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-13-2009, 08:33 PM
^ You trying your best to kill my buzz here, aren't you?

The way I see it, it is not a standard BH overhead. For a right-hander, the standard BH overhead has the player coiling counter-CW (and then sometimes uncoiling a bit) to play the shot. The distinct variation that I'm talking about has the the player spinning around CW instead to play the high BH shot. The mechanics, the way the muscles are recruited, is significantly different. The angular momentum of the CW body spin and the unique timing of the swing are integral parts of this variation.

While it is may easy for you and I, it is not easy for all players to execute. But then, I find the tweener relatively easy to execute as well (as long as I can catch up to the ball). This variation is sufficiently different from the standard BH overhead to warrant its own name.

Not my fault you rotated the wrong way for this shot. XP

I can't do a tweener. I'm too afraid. But at one point, the backhand overhead was far easier for me than the regular one. In doubles, anytime I got the backhand overhead, I smacked the hell out of it at an angle. Even now, it's better than my regular overhead.

SystemicAnomaly
10-13-2009, 08:44 PM
Not my fault you rotated the wrong way for this shot. XP ...

For some reason, I suspect that it is your fault that I'm rotating the wrong way. I've wondered for a long time who was responsible for this anomaly. Or maybe its because I'm left-handed & playing North of the equator. If I played in the Southern Hemisphere, I probably rotate the other way.

.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-13-2009, 09:10 PM
For some reason, I suspect that it is your fault that I'm rotating the wrong way. I've wondered for a long time who was responsible for this anomaly. Or maybe its because I'm left-handed & playing North of the equator. If I played in the Southern Hemisphere, I probably rotate the other way.

.

If you're left handed, then you ARE hitting a 100% standard backhand overhead! LOL

jserve
10-14-2009, 03:18 AM
I think the reason there isn't a name for this shot is because this shot has never been hit by a player that knew what they were doing. Why would any good doubles player choose to spin 270 degrees and take their eye off the ball when they could simply turn in the correct direction. The backhand overhead is already a tough enough shot. There is no point in making it harder.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 02:53 PM
If you're left handed, then you ARE hitting a 100% standard backhand overhead! LOL

I've actually hit BH overheads both ways. The standard for me would be to rotate CW. If this or other options are not suitable for the situation, I'll quickly spin around CCW and hit the alternate high BH shot.

My first option will always be the standard (FH) overhead smash. If the lob is too good (on my right side) and I don't have enough time to fully get around, I'll sometimes hit an 'round-the-head overhead as my next choice. This is a very common stroke in badminton but I've only seen a few pro tennis players attempt it.

My 3rd choice is the standard BH overhead/smash. If the lob is simply too good or I've prepared to the left side of my body expecting to be able to use a FH or standard smash, I'll sometimes resort to option #4 -- the spin-around (CCW for a lefty) high BH shot.


I think the reason there isn't a name for this shot is because this shot has never been hit by a player that knew what they were doing. Why would any good doubles player choose to spin 270 degrees and take their eye off the ball when they could simply turn in the correct direction. The backhand overhead is already a tough enough shot. There is no point in making it harder.

Wrong. In the 35 yrs that I've been playing and watching tennis, I've seen it used quite a few times by pros. However, it is more common in doubs than singles as mentioned before. But it is not a common as the conventional high BH rotation.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-14-2009, 04:15 PM
I've actually hit BH overheads both ways. The standard for me would be to rotate CW. If this or other options are not suitable for the situation, I'll quickly spin around CCW and hit the alternate high BH shot.

My first option will always be the standard (FH) overhead smash. If the lob is too good (on my right side) and I don't have enough time to fully get around, I'll sometimes hit an 'round-the-head overhead as my next choice. This is a very common stroke in badminton but I've only seen a few pro tennis players attempt it.

My 3rd choice is the standard BH overhead/smash. If the lob is simply too good or I've prepared to the left side of my body expecting to be able to use a FH or standard smash, I'll sometimes resort to option #4 -- the spin-around (CCW for a lefty) high BH shot.

Your problems are the facts that you can't immediately read your opponent's shot and you can't commit to a specific shot once the ball comes off the opponent's racket. As a result, you compensate by doing unnecessary things.

You should look to read your opponent's shot as best as you can, and from that select the shot you want to hit. You should do this before the ball comes anywhere near you or the net. Once you've selected your shot, STICK TO IT! If you want to hit the standard overhead, move around quickly to get into position for it! If you want to hit the backhand overhead, move around quickly to get into position for it! Clearly you only want to hit the backhand overhead when it goes far into your backhand side, so you should be hitting mostly standard overheads and moving your feet very quickly to get into position for them. Once you've picked your shot, measure it out, follow and track the ball, then hit your shot.

On the tennis court, you always want to be decisive about what shot you're going to hit. Indecision is the worst sin on the tennis court.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 05:59 PM
Your problems are the facts that you can't immediately read your opponent's shot and you can't commit to a specific shot once the ball comes off the opponent's racket. As a result, you compensate by doing unnecessary things...

Nope, that's not it at all. Am now in my late 50s and I don't move as well as I did in my 30s and 40s. Don't even move as well as I did 3 years ago. I know what I'm doing and my actions are not what I'd call unnecessary. In my 20s, I developed the BH specialty shot because I thought that it looked cool and I was not that good at reading opponent's shots and ball trajectory all that well. These days, my slower body requires me to compensate with 'round the head shots, spin-around shots and other creative shots.

Just wait til you get to the point that you can't react to shots that way you did in your youth.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 06:46 PM
Also important to note that I primarily play doubles where the action is often fast, furious and play often needs to be more creative than singles.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-14-2009, 07:02 PM
Nope, that's not it at all. Am now in my late 50s and I don't move as well as I did in my 30s and 40s. Don't even move as well as I did 3 years ago. I know what I'm doing and my actions are not what I'd call unnecessary. In my 20s, I developed the BH specialty shot because I thought that it looked cool and I was not that good at reading opponent's shots and ball trajectory all that well. These days, my slower body requires me to compensate with 'round the head shots, spin-around shots and other creative shots.

Just wait til you get to the point that you can't react to shots that way you did in your youth.

Then anticipate to play the difficult shots. Don't run around the ball if you know the ball is going to your backhand right away. Hit the backhand overhead, set up for it.

But yeah. Movement is more difficult as you get older, but if you recognize what shot is coming right away, you can set up for it much faster, be more efficient with your movement and preparation, and take less steps.

But hey, whatever works.

SystemicAnomaly
10-15-2009, 09:30 AM
It's a "Reflex Oops-I'm-Wrong-Footed-BH-Desperation-Overhead." (Or "What the heck? I'll try one of the lowest percentage shots possible and boast about the one-in-one-thousandth that worked!")

- KK

Actually, my % on this is quite good -- better than 90%. When I've hit the shot I can usually angle it where I want and quite often end up winning the point.

It seems that this thread keeps getting sidetracked. I'm not really interested in opinions on whether I should be doing the shot or if the pros use it very often or not. It was not my intent to solicit advice on anticipation or shot selection. I use the shot because it is either because I feel that it appropriate for the situation or just because I enjoy it (and yet still effective).

My preference is not to hit high backhands. I prefer to run around and hit a standard overhead whenever I can, even tho' I'm not as quick as I once was. I will not hit the BH shot simply because I don't feel like exerting the effort to hit a proper overhead. The CW & CCW BH overheads are last resort shots.

For those situations where I go for the regular overhead and an not quite quick enough to get into an ideal position, I'll employ a reverse or 'round-the-head overhead. It is usually not quite as powerful as the standard smash, but I can hit winning angles with it. If you've not seen it used, it looks something like these pix:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/59/173949388_48c99da566.jpg (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=597229981076200814&ei=wL_WSureI5TCqAOyzLmMCg&q=badminton+%22round+the+head%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a#)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3253515453_b73c7ce735.jpg?v=0 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=597229981076200814&ei=wL_WSureI5TCqAOyzLmMCg&q=badminton+%22round+the+head%22&hl=en)

To see the shot in action, click on one of the photos above.

5263
10-15-2009, 09:59 AM
I use this overhead in the badminton pics all the time, and like you, wonder why almost no one does?? It's not hard at all and doesn't affect my % what so ever. Way better % than anyone's backhand smash.
Maybe it relates to my normal overhead being such a strong and consistent shot for me.

How about calling it a "lasso overhead"?

ronalditop
10-15-2009, 09:59 AM
Why is it that in badminton they dont need to put themselves sideways to hit an overhead, while in tennis it is necesary. Can it be because of the grip they use?

ronalditop
10-15-2009, 10:05 AM
I just watched some more badminton clips and I notice these players hold the handle really high, their entire hand is in contact with grip. That may be the reason why its so easy for them to hit that kinds of shots.

Kaptain Karl
10-15-2009, 04:16 PM
Actually, my % on this is quite good -- better than 90%. When I've hit the shot I can usually angle it where I want and quite often end up winning the point.Right...! The boys on my HS team are frequently trying to convince (themselves) some crazy low-percentage shot is very effective for them.

But we chart our matches. I can show them the data. They are deluding themselves.

(But I'm sure you're the "one" who is not....)

One of the teams in our Conference has a lot of badminton players. I see very few "good" shots / techniques that translate from that other racquet sport.

- KK

SystemicAnomaly
10-15-2009, 06:47 PM
Right...! The boys on my HS team are frequently trying to convince (themselves) some crazy low-percentage shot is very effective for them...

You are comparing me to your clueless high schools students. Get real. I've been doing this shot for more than 30 yrs. I know what is effective & what is not. I started coaching in the early 80s. Give me friggin' some credit. 'Nuff said!

.

SystemicAnomaly
10-15-2009, 06:51 PM
I just watched some more badminton clips and I notice these players hold the handle really high, their entire hand is in contact with grip. That may be the reason why its so easy for them to hit that kinds of shots.

Good players, especially doubles players, will usually use "short grips" in the fore court and mid-court areas for quickness = racquet manueverability. They use a "long grip in the back court for more power (longer lever arm). I'll address your other question later.

5263
10-15-2009, 07:41 PM
You are comparing me to your clueless high schools students. Get real. I've been doing this shot for more than 30 yrs. I know what is effective & what is not. I started coaching in the early 80s. Give me friggin' some credit. 'Nuff said!

.

and really this shot, while looking pretty interesting to other players,
is really pretty easy, so the % should be very high.

naylor
10-15-2009, 08:08 PM
Thinking of badminton was a good insight, in that sport the backward rotation to play a backhand smash is probably more common and effective for a "normal" backhand smash than a forward rotation (as in the Nadal smash).

Still, while not very common in tennis, I can see it happening (and being a good option to play) in doubles when all four are at the net, and one person flicks a quick lob volley over the opposition. Then, if I'm anticipating the lob over my right side - I'm a rightie - and already turning for it, but the ball comes over my left shoulder instead and it's just high over the wrong side but without too much penetration, then continuing the turn the wrong way into a 270 pirouette for a high backhand smash is likely to be the most effective play that keeps the initiative and my position at the net.

5263
10-15-2009, 08:27 PM
Thinking of badminton was a good insight, in that sport the backward rotation to play a backhand smash is probably more common and effective for a "normal" backhand smash than a forward rotation (as in the Nadal smash).

Still, while not very common in tennis, I can see it happening (and being a good option to play) in doubles when all four are at the net, and one person flicks a quick lob volley over the opposition. Then, if I'm anticipating the lob over my right side - I'm a rightie - and already turning for it, but the ball comes over my left shoulder instead and it's just high over the wrong side but without too much penetration, then continuing the turn the wrong way into a 270 pirouette for a high backhand smash is likely to be the most effective play that keeps the initiative and my position at the net.

You got it. Works great!

SA, what about the name, Lasso Overhead?

moroni
10-16-2009, 12:44 AM
Are you playing Prince of Tennis?

hahahhah This anime sure brings back memories (there are some wicked shots seriously disappearing balls) watch it again you might find a name for your shot its one of the easiest shots in prince of tennis (well it gotta be compared to the ZERO SHIKI DROP SHOT) XDXD

Jay_The_Nomad
10-16-2009, 01:20 AM
Ballerina's Backhand Smash.

Extra points for spinning En POinte on the tip of your toes.

The BBS

Edit: mm.. on the other hand...BBS could mean a few other things too..

SystemicAnomaly
10-18-2009, 11:19 AM
I use this overhead in the badminton pics all the time, and like you, wonder why almost no one does?? It's not hard at all and doesn't affect my % what so ever. Way better % than anyone's backhand smash.

Maybe it relates to my normal overhead being such a strong and consistent shot for me.

How about calling it a "lasso overhead"?

Is that your new name for the 'round-the-head shot? Or are you referring the the spin-around high BH shot that I was originally talking about?

The 1st time that I attempted an around-the-head shot in tennis, I nearly hurt myself trying. However, by the 2nd time I had figured out how to adapt it to tennis without the risk of injury. It comes in real handy when I can't quite get over quick enough to hit the regular overhead. Sometimes I'll use it just for the surprise element against someone who's not seen it before.


Why is it that in badminton they dont need to put themselves sideways to hit an overhead, while in tennis it is necesary. Can it be because of the grip they use?

A badminton racquet only weighs 90 grams or so (3 to 3.5 oz) and the shuttle weighs quite a bit less than a tennis ball. A badminton player will sometimes use a full kinetic chain when executing a shot just a tennis player would. Quite often, however, the shuttle comes back so quickly there is simply not enough time or even a need to employ a full body kinetic chain. Many times a badminton player will use primarily the upper links -- the torso & arm elements w/o much legs and hips or they may just employ just the shoulder, upper arm & forearm (with a bit of fingers & wrist).

SystemicAnomaly
10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
and really this shot, while looking pretty interesting to other players, is really pretty easy, so the % should be very high.

In a lot of situations, I do find the spin around high BH fairly easy to execute and the % is high. The surprise element gets some opponents who might not be alert, quick or savvy. There are other times when the lob is too good ar the action is too fast and this shot (or any other standard shot) becomes difficult.


Ballerina's Backhand Smash.

Extra points for spinning En POinte on the tip of your toes.

The BBS ...

Not bad. So if it is executed by a male would that be a Ballerino's Backhand Smash? Perhaps we could change it so that it is not gender specific -- to the Pirouette Backhand Smash.

That would be the PBS

We could hold periodic pledge drives for the promotion of the PBS. ;)

5263
10-18-2009, 11:49 AM
Is that your new name for the 'round-the-head shot? Or are you referring the the spin-around high BH shot that I was originally talking about?

The 1st time that I attempted an around-the-head shot in tennis, I nearly hurt myself trying. However, by the 2nd time I had figured out how to adapt it to tennis without the risk of injury. It comes in real handy when I can't quite get over quick enough to hit the regular overhead. Sometimes I'll use it just for the surprise element against someone who's not seen it before.



the around the head one which I guess I confused here from the badmitton pics.