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8pNADAL
10-12-2009, 07:09 AM
i don't think she belongs on the top level with graf/navratilova etc., she hits a lot of unforced errors, and seems to lack powers of concentration at times, her game is not consistent enough to be a goat, or do people just point to the 'serena slam' and say her best form is better than graf?

JoelDali
10-12-2009, 07:10 AM
This is epic fail.

TMF
10-12-2009, 07:22 AM
For sure Serena benefitted from Henin/Kim early retirement, and Sharapova non-existent in 2008 b/c of the shoulder injury.

Winning slams without them is alot easier.

rommil
10-12-2009, 07:25 AM
Ask her weighing scale. It will tell you that Serena's over......something.

jamesblakefan#1
10-12-2009, 08:28 AM
For sure Serena benefitted from Henin/Kim early retirement, and Sharapova non-existent in 2008 b/c of the shoulder injury.

Winning slams without them is alot easier.

Just as Henin benefited from Serena's knee injury 2003-2004.

Chadwixx
10-12-2009, 08:30 AM
The whole wta is overrated. Players take #1 off another players loss, not their win. She hasnt won a tournament in a few months yet moved up in the rankings? Tells you how bad the wta is.

jamesblakefan#1
10-12-2009, 08:31 AM
The whole wta is overrated. Players take #1 off another players loss, not their win. She hasnt won a tournament in a few months yet moved up in the rankings? Tells you how bad the wta is.

That is such an original thought. Never heard that before, ever! :shock:

jones101
10-12-2009, 09:03 AM
She is an underachiever, but definitely not overated, in fact, and I may get flamed for this, I think the variety in her strokes in underrated these days, as people only remember her power.

She hits with a lot more topspin than in 03, uses angles more, incorporated a slice, lobs frequently etc.

Any multi slam winner is not overrated IMO.

This is a thread which was created to ultimatley diss Serena in some form, and I think the ammount of hate she receicves on this board is way too much.

She has achieved a lot and has had an amazing career. She has had the best career OF ANY WOMAN POST GRAF and this can't be denied, so she obviouly cant be overrated.

jones101
10-12-2009, 09:05 AM
That is such an original thought. Never heard that before, ever! :shock:

Some people just hate for the sake of hating, I have seen a lot a great matches on the WTA this year and will always defend it.

Even if the matches are not always of the highest caliber points wise, the tension/drama etc more than makes up for it.

grafselesfan
10-12-2009, 12:36 PM
Ridiculous thread. If anything she is vastly underrated on places like TW planet.

grafselesfan
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
For sure Serena benefitted from Henin/Kim early retirement, and Sharapova non-existent in 2008 b/c of the shoulder injury.

Winning slams without them is alot easier.

Serena owns Sharapova. Kim has choked in all her slam finals except the two she played a 30-something women in the twilight of her career and a teenage first time finalist with no major offensive weapons. Henin was playing awful for her standards the first several months of 2008 and her most likely slam wins out of form are the French Open which Serena hasnt won in a long time anyway.

8pNADAL
10-12-2009, 06:05 PM
not saying shes overrated for being a multislam champion, but she is overrated for being compared to graf (which she has been compared to by many)

World Beater
10-13-2009, 08:46 PM
The whole wta is overrated. Players take #1 off another players loss, not their win. She hasnt won a tournament in a few months yet moved up in the rankings? Tells you how bad the wta is.

yeah well.

it happened in the atp too. didnt kafelnikov lose like 6 six straight times when he was #1 and then moya and rafter became #1. not sure whether they won anything or if the previous guy lost.

clijsters and henin are back to restore order. this will reinvigorate williams as well. the tour will become competetive again.

boredone3456
10-13-2009, 08:57 PM
I think maybe in terms of this year alone she is slightly overrated. Yes she has won 2 slams but she hasn't won a single non slam tournament this year (hasn't won one since Charleston in 2008, roughly 17 months) and has lost at those tournaments to quite a few people who have done little of note this year, yet she is hailed as by far the best on the tour, which she may be in terms of talent but the results are not there to back it up.

But, historically, I don't think she is, 11 slams, top 10 all time, she is not overrated. Do I think she is an underachiever, yes I do, in 2003 I fully expected her to have something like 14 or 15 slams right now instead of 11, and more than 50 titles overall, and she doesn't even have 40. How can someone be overrated when most people would agree she is a top 10 all time player, double digit slams, a career slam...and so on.

1970CRBase
10-13-2009, 09:04 PM
Is Serena Williams overrated? Well, how does she rate herself?

:D

boredone3456
10-13-2009, 09:06 PM
Is Serena Williams overrated? Well, how does she rate herself?

:D

in terms of how she rates herself she is overrated.

zagor
10-13-2009, 09:36 PM
I wouldn't say overrated but she isn't up with Graf and Navratilova for sure,they accomplish a lot more than Serena.

Overall I do think Serena is a great player and mentally very tough,a great champion.She could have accomplished much more still with her talent and athleticism(as much as Evert,Graf,Navratilova and like IMO)but I'm sure she's personally happy with her career the way it is.

SerbWhoLovesDelPo
10-13-2009, 09:47 PM
2 things:

1. she was hurt by family problems and injuries, so maybe she could have had more slams from 2005-2008. From that aspect, she was unlucky

2. on the other hand, she won a couple of easy slams since last year's USO, and then got crushed by some fat mommy last month, so perhaps her recent slam successes are a bit questionable. From that aspect, she was lucky

So, it evens out, I guess.

anointedone
10-14-2009, 02:30 AM
2 things:

1. she was hurt by family problems and injuries, so maybe she could have had more slams from 2005-2008. From that aspect, she was unlucky

2. on the other hand, she won a couple of easy slams since last year's USO, and then got crushed by some fat mommy last month, so perhaps her recent slam successes are a bit questionable. From that aspect, she was lucky

So, it evens out, I guess.

I think that is a fair accessment. I do think she had some bad luck with the untimely injury after Wimbledon 2003 when she was dominating and the tragedy of her sisters murder. On the other hand very lucky with Henin missing from all 5 slams she won since mid 2003, and the last 3 won without Henin, Clijsters, or even a healthy Sharapova (I know Kim and Maria were in the semis and finals of the 07 AO but Kim was going through the motions at that point and Maria was already badly injured). So like you said it probably events out.

jelle v
10-14-2009, 02:48 AM
Ridiculous thread. If anything she is vastly underrated on places like TW planet.

Exactly..

I get the feeling a lot of people on this board are downplaying her results because they simply hate Serena. Granted, wrong behavior like at the US Open doesn't belong on a tennis court, but all the haters are very eager to hold that against her. All the talk like "she should be banned for a year" is pathetic.

I have never seen a WTA tennis player that can dominate like Serena can. Granted, it basically just hardhitting, but that's just the way tennis is these days.

jelle v
10-14-2009, 03:01 AM
Maybe she is underrated by some, but you are overrating her with your last statement. Never seen a WTA player who can dominate like Serena can?! Ever see Graf and Navratilova in their primes, far more dominant than Serena ever was in their best years. Anyway Serena only ever completely dominated one year- 2002. That is it. Justine's 2007, 2003, and 2006 would be Serena's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best years ever.

I don't mean dominate the WTA tour, I mean dominate in matches.. I started watching tennis in 1987 or so. Never have I seen Graf blow away opponents like Serena has done. Note that I'm not saying that Serena is better than Graf, but Serena is far better than a lot of people on this board like to admit. Serena (and Venus) have brought a big evolution in the women's tennisgame.

dannykl
10-14-2009, 03:27 AM
Exactly..

I get the feeling a lot of people on this board are downplaying her results because they simply hate Serena. Granted, wrong behavior like at the US Open doesn't belong on a tennis court, but all the haters are very eager to hold that against her. All the talk like "she should be banned for a year" is pathetic.

I have never seen a WTA tennis player that can dominate like Serena can. Granted, it basically just hardhitting, but that's just the way tennis is these days.

Quite a few wta legends can 'dominate like Serena can' at least, if not be more dominating, say Graf, Court or Nav.

To say Serena should be banned for a period is 'pathetic',her threating and abusive behavior in the US this year is totally unacceptable and should be properly punished.

dannykl
10-14-2009, 03:29 AM
To say Serena should be banned for a period is 'pathetic',her threating and abusive behavior in the US this year is totally unacceptable and should be properly punished.

To say Serena should be banned for a period is not 'pathetic',her threating and abusive behavior in the US this year is totally unacceptable and should be properly punished

jelle v
10-14-2009, 03:35 AM
This is exactly what I mean.. so much hate for Serena.. I'm not going to post 30 posts to defend Serena. :rolleyes:

boredone3456
10-14-2009, 05:52 AM
This is exactly what I mean.. so much hate for Serena.. I'm not going to post 30 posts to defend Serena. :rolleyes:

LOL..I guess we can add Serena Williams to the list of players we are not even allowed to be critical of anymore. Just because everyone doesn't heaps tons of praise upon her doesn't make everyone haters. Serena is a great player when at her best, I will not deny that, but she doesn't dominate the game when at her best anymore than Graf, Evert, Court, Lenglen, Wills, Nav or Connolly did at their bests. In fact I would say she dominates it less then they did. Fact is, based on her form and pace in 2002-2003, she is an underacheiver, its not downplaying her results to call her that, and its not downplaying her to state the fact that she hasn't won a non slam tournament in over a year, pretty sad for the current number 1 player in the world if you ask me. I guess I am a hater though for not saying only positive things about Serena all the time though.

Cyan
10-14-2009, 05:54 AM
yuhhhhhhhhhhh. She plays in the muggiest
WTA era ever. She would be slamless if she played in the hard-c0ck era of the early 90s.

jamesblakefan#1
10-14-2009, 07:24 AM
I don't mean dominate the WTA tour, I mean dominate in matches.. I started watching tennis in 1987 or so. Never have I seen Graf blow away opponents like Serena has done. Note that I'm not saying that Serena is better than Graf, but Serena is far better than a lot of people on this board like to admit. Serena (and Venus) have brought a big evolution in the women's tennisgame.

I'd say that the WS and Henin are the only players from this era that would still have near the level of success they have had in this era had they played in Graf's era. Serena is stronger competition than any player in Graf's era, save for Seles and aging Navratilova. The rest of Graf's competition was really ducks when it comes to talking about all time greats - Sanchez-Vicario was solid, but nothing special, same with Martinez, Sabbatini, though I'd put ASV a level above those players.

LDVTennis
10-14-2009, 08:44 AM
I don't mean dominate the WTA tour, I mean dominate in matches.. I started watching tennis in 1987 or so. Never have I seen Graf blow away opponents like Serena has done. Note that I'm not saying that Serena is better than Graf, but Serena is far better than a lot of people on this board like to admit. Serena (and Venus) have brought a big evolution in the women's tennisgame.

You started watching tennis in 1987. Did you perhaps skip watching in 1988 and 1989? In 1988, Steffi won 20 straight matches at the majors without losing a set. That led to this comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pMuNAgeemg. When has Serena ever been compared to Lenglen and Wills-Moody? You'll let me know.

In 1989, Steffi was blowing away her opposition to such a degree that more than one article was written about the fact that her opponents didn't go on the court looking so much to win, but rather looking to keep her out on the court for more than an hour. If you doubt what I am saying, read this http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126662/index.htm.

And, to think in 1988 and 1989, Steffi hadn't yet reached her peak level. So, yes, Serena is overrated whenever anyone tries to compare her to Graf. Outside of that comparison, there's not much to distinguish Serena's game from the other ball-bashers of her generation, except her 11 majors.

Cyan
10-14-2009, 09:05 AM
You started watching tennis in 1987. Did you perhaps skip watching in 1988 and 1989? In 1988, Steffi won 20 straight matches at the majors without losing a set. That led to this comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pMuNAgeemg. When has Serena ever been compared to Lenglen and Wills-Moody? You'll let me know.

In 1989, Steffi was blowing away her opposition to such a degree that more than one article was written about the fact that her opponents didn't go on the court looking so much to win, but rather looking to keep her out on the court for more than an hour. If you doubt what I am saying, read this http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126662/index.htm.

And, to think in 1988 and 1989, Steffi hadn't yet reached her peak level. So, yes, Serena is overrated whenever anyone tries to compare her to Graf. Outside of that comparison, there's not much to distinguish Serena's game from the other ball-bashers of her generation, except her 11 majors.

Steffi = female Fed.

TMF
10-14-2009, 09:20 AM
Serena owns Sharapova. Kim has choked in all her slam finals except the two she played a 30-something women in the twilight of her career and a teenage first time finalist with no major offensive weapons. Henin was playing awful for her standards the first several months of 2008 and her most likely slam wins out of form are the French Open which Serena hasnt won in a long time anyway.

Iím talking about 2008(throw in 2009 AO if you want to). Henin, Maria and Clijsters combined to win a total of 12 GS. Losing Maria after winning the AO was another big blow to the tour. During Serena absent, Serena was competing against slamless players like Jankovic, Safina, Dementieva. Serena had only Venus who gave her trouble, thatís all. And despite of the depleted field, she managed to win only 1 GS that year. Four different player won a slam in 2008, and Serena was not the year end #1. So this is a good case to say Serena is overrated.

Kim choked in all her slam? Did she choke when she gave Serena a spanking lesson in Flushing?

Cyan
10-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Iím talking about 2008(throw in 2009 AO if you want to). Henin, Maria and Clijsters combined to win a total of 12 GS. Losing Maria after winning the AO was another big blow to the tour. During Serena absent, Serena was competing against slamless players like Jankovic, Safina, Dementieva. Serena had only Venus who gave her trouble, thatís all. And despite of the depleted field, she managed to win only 1 GS that year. Four different player won a slam in 2008, and Serena was not the year end #1. So this is a good case to say Serena is overrated.

Kim choked in all her slam? Did she choke when she gave Serena a spanking lesson in Flushing?

And she plays in a mug era...

grafselesfan
10-14-2009, 10:03 AM
I’m talking about 2008(throw in 2009 AO if you want to). Henin, Maria and Clijsters combined to win a total of 12 GS. Losing Maria after winning the AO was another big blow to the tour. During Serena absent, Serena was competing against slamless players like Jankovic, Safina, Dementieva. Serena had only Venus who gave her trouble, that’s all. And despite of the depleted field, she managed to win only 1 GS that year. Four different player won a slam in 2008, and Serena was not the year end #1. So this is a good case to say Serena is overrated.

Kim choked in all her slam? Did she choke when she gave Serena a spanking lesson in Flushing?

Check out Serena's career head to head with Clijsters and get back to me on her. As for the U.S Open good for Kim finally beating someone like Serena in a slam semi or final. It only took her forever to finally do it. Maybe now she can do it a few more times before she is anointed some goddess of tennis. It will take more than one big win in a slam to erase her history of choking in big matches vs Venus, Serena, Henin, and even Capriati.

I realize Jankovic, Safina, and Dementieva are much weaker players than Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova. My point is that while they are higher caliber opponents Serena still owns Sharapova and Clijsters both. Both players have beaten her in a slam only once. Maria hadnt beaten Serena anywhere since 2004. Kim's overall head to head with Serena only speaks for itself. So just because they are alot better players than what Serena has faced while they were out doesnt mean she wouldnt handle them and they would have been beating her, they havent often in the past after all. Only Henin of those 3 is a for sure threat to Serena, but look at how she was playing in early 2008. How do you know she was going to play well enough to take hard and grass court slams from Serena the last 2 years. It looks to me like she had to take the break she did, otherwise her game would have just gone down further. In the form she showed in early 2008 the only slams she would win are French Opens which Serena doesnt win anyway.

As for 2008 the only result that stands out is the Australian Open where Serena had a dissapointing and surprising quarterfinal loss to Jankovic. The French she isnt that huge a threat anymore. Wimbledon she lost to Venus. U.S Open she won.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 12:42 PM
First off, Serena annoys me. I'm not a Serena fan at all, but I do recognize her superior talent. However, this poll is an epic fail. Ppl seems be voting based on popularity rather than on her skills.

Tony48
10-14-2009, 03:23 PM
yuhhhhhhhhhhh. She plays in the muggiest
WTA era ever. She would be slamless if she played in the hard-c0ck era of the early 90s.

She sucks because she didn't play when you wanted her to play?

This thread is full of so many stupid statements. I'm out.

Objective Danny
10-14-2009, 10:05 PM
Not only is she overrated, she's also detrimental to the sport!

jamesblakefan#1
10-14-2009, 10:09 PM
Not only is she overrated, she's also detrimental to the sport!

Perfect example of someone saying something shocking just to illicit a response, AKA trolling.

dannykl
10-15-2009, 01:02 AM
The sooner Serena is banned and fined the better for the WTA!

Totally agreed.

8pNADAL
10-15-2009, 01:32 AM
in 1997 hingis was far more dominant than serena

THUNDERVOLLEY
10-15-2009, 05:21 AM
Check out Serena's career head to head with Clijsters and get back to me on her. As for the U.S Open good for Kim finally beating someone like Serena in a slam semi or final. It only took her forever to finally do it. Maybe now she can do it a few more times before she is anointed some goddess of tennis. It will take more than one big win in a slam to erase her history of choking in big matches vs Venus, Serena, Henin, and even Capriati.

Rational post. Clijsters is aging, and there's no evidence proving she will end her career (for the 2nd time) as some all-time great player. As it stands, for a slam winner, she's less than average.

I realize Jankovic, Safina, and Dementieva are much weaker players than Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova. My point is that while they are higher caliber opponents Serena still owns Sharapova and Clijsters both. Both players have beaten her in a slam only once. Maria hadnt beaten Serena anywhere since 2004. Kim's overall head to head with Serena only speaks for itself. So just because they are alot better players than what Serena has faced while they were out doesnt mean she wouldnt handle them and they would have been beating her, they havent often in the past after all. Only Henin of those 3 is a for sure threat to Serena, but look at how she was playing in early 2008. How do you know she was going to play well enough to take hard and grass court slams from Serena the last 2 years.

More rational points. Certain members love to accuse Serena of making excuses, yet they generate enough for Henin's when she repeatedly failed to win Wimbledon. There's a reason for that: her game is not suited for that surface, no matter who happens to be on the other side of the net. For all of the hype and desire for her to win Wimbledon as though she's a natural, her cheerleaders still fail to admit Bartoli outplayed Henin in that unforgettable semifinal. Sorry, but Henin had no answers.

grafselesfan
10-15-2009, 05:22 AM
in 1997 hingis was far more dominant than serena

Hingis in 97 was not anymore dominant than Serena in 2002. If you want to say Serena's dominance only lasted a year and a half, the same could be said for Hingis so no difference there either. The field in 1997-early 1998 was also nothing like 2002-early 2003.

1997-early 1998: badly injured Graf near the end of her career, Graf didnt even play 4 of the 6 slams in this time frame and was destroyed by Amanda Coetzer in the other two. Seles struggling emotionally with her fathers impending death and looking like someone on maternity leave. Sanchez Vicario suffering from obvious burn out after many years playing her grinders game and nothing like the 89-96 version, Martinez also burnt out. Venus just starting out on tour and very raw, Serena even moreso. So that left a pre prime Davenport, Novotna also in the twilight of her career, inconsistent Pierce, and for some real laughs the likes of Majoli, Huber, Coetzer, and Spirlea, as her main competition.

2002-early 2003- Serena at her peak, Venus at her peak, Henin and Clijsters on the rise and starting to come into their primes, Davenport still near her best, Capriati at her peak, Seles still formidable, Hingis still a force, Mauresmo a major contender, Dokic and Hantuchova also factors.

8pNADAL
10-15-2009, 09:15 PM
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p222/the_x-phile/ObviousTroll.jpg

thanks thats the best picture ive ever seen i'll add that to the photobucket

janipyt05
10-16-2009, 07:31 AM
For sure Serena benefitted from Henin/Kim early retirement, and Sharapova non-existent in 2008 b/c of the shoulder injury.

Winning slams without them is alot easier.

what rubbish who the hell told them to walk away from the game you best remember that Serena was in the game before Henin was and there after she left, you forget Serena was still winning slams while Henins and Kim where there and went on winning while they were not there so no she did not benefit from there being there or gone, yes Henins beat Serena and so did Serena mind you Serena is an all surface winner not just a clay and 1 time us open, aus open winner. She can only deal with what is in front of her they had no deal like if you play then i play... what!

Breaker
10-16-2009, 07:54 AM
Rated fairly enough. She's one of the most talented women's players of all time and probably should have won a few more majors. However, on places such as this forum she is downgraded just because of her attitude which is 100% separate from game and results.

I believe her results speak for themselves and her talent level is great so not overrated.

flying24
10-16-2009, 07:56 AM
what rubbish who the hell told them to walk away from the game you best remember that Serena was in the game before Henin was and there after she left, you forget Serena was still winning slams while Henins and Kim where there and went on winning while they were not there so no she did not benefit from there being there or gone, yes Henins beat Serena and so did Serena mind you Serena is an all surface winner not just a clay and 1 time us open, aus open winner. She can only deal with what is in front of her they had no deal like if you play then i play... what!

Serena actually hasnt won a slam since Wimbledon 2003 with Justine Henin even in the draw. In fact even Kim Clijsters has only been in the draw for 1 of her 5 slam wins since Wimbledon 2003. Serena is not the player she used to be and needs the kind of fields she has gotten the last year and a half to win alot of slams. Now with Henin and Clijsters back I predict she has already had her last multi slam year.

TMF
10-16-2009, 08:30 AM
what rubbish who the hell told them to walk away from the game you best remember that Serena was in the game before Henin was and there after she left, you forget Serena was still winning slams while Henins and Kim where there and went on winning while they were not there so no she did not benefit from there being there or gone, yes Henins beat Serena and so did Serena mind you Serena is an all surface winner not just a clay and 1 time us open, aus open winner. She can only deal with what is in front of her they had no deal like if you play then i play... what!

Let say Murray and Nole walk away from the ATP, and Del Potro hammered with shoulder injury this year, don't you think people will say Fed/Nadal had a depleted field? Of course, and that's exactly happened in the WTA. It's not Serena's fault but the fact is the WTA lost some great players. I'm not taking any slams away from her, but she could of faced stiffer resistent. Plus, if Serena is so good she should of been undispute #1, but a slamless player Jankovic and Safina were the #1 most of the time. That's not dominant and it's the reason she's overrated. In fact, Serena right only only has a total of 74 weeks at #1, that's well behind some of the players in this decade.

Davenport...98 weeks
Hingis.......209 weeks
Henin........117 weeks

Keep in mind these players even have a shorter career than Serena. Is serena overrated? Yes. She is lucky to even considered a tier 2 great(and I'm being nice).

bluetrain4
10-16-2009, 09:20 AM
I would defintely say "No."

With all overrated/underrated threads, no one every really explains the starting point. Is Serena overrated? Well what is her initial "rating'? Is it a certain ranking on the "best of all time" list that we are considering in determining whether she is overrated? Is it tennis publication declaration that she is the best player of her generation we are considering? There has to be a staring point. Or is it simply the collective remarks, opinions, analysis of commentators and fans that were are considering, which is always tricky since such collective opinion tends to go up and down.

People seem to just judge for themselves what the "mood" is surrounding a player and then deem them underrated or overrated. If they think too many people are saying Serena is great, then she's overrated.

Given all of the general hatred for Serana (for legitimate and non-legitimate reasons) and given that her 11 Slams are constantly being questioned on these boards due to the absence of Henin and various "weak era" arguments (at least for her last 6 Slams), I'd say that on TW, Serena is definitely not overrated.

Outside of TW, what are we talking about? The highest platitude I've heard about Serena is that she is Top 10 all time. That is a definitive "rating." So if you believe she's not Top 10, she's overrated.

And, I think a lot of posters get hung up on one poster's statements in regards to a player. I remember reading a post on TW that Serena, at her absolute best, would destroy Graf and Navratilova and therefore, she was "better" than them. Of course, this is an outlier opinion, and in that narrow context she could be overrated, but it's not a generally held opinion, so in a larger context, it is immaterial to a true discussion of whether she is overrated.

I don't know, it just seems like there has to be a definitive starting point (a GOAT ranking, a proven general consensus about a player's accomplishments and talent (which is rare)) to deem someone overrated or underrated.

More often than not, it usually devolves into "I really like this player and not enough other people share my enthusiasm, so he's underrated," or "I really don't like this player, yet many people still speak about him/her positively, so she's overrated."

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 09:29 AM
Serena actually hasnt won a slam since Wimbledon 2003 with Justine Henin even in the draw. In fact even Kim Clijsters has only been in the draw for 1 of her 5 slam wins since Wimbledon 2003. Serena is not the player she used to be and needs the kind of fields she has gotten the last year and a half to win alot of slams. Now with Henin and Clijsters back I predict she has already had her last multi slam year.

If you really think Clijsters would have been the one taking slams from Serena, you're dreaming. And don't blame Serena for Henin quitting.

boredone3456
10-16-2009, 09:53 AM
If you really think Clijsters would have been the one taking slams from Serena, you're dreaming. And don't blame Serena for Henin quitting.

The Only Slam I could see Clijsters taking from Serena would have been the 2008 US Open maybe had she stayed and kept up her form, but Clijsters wasn't winning one of her Wimbledons..or any of the others...As for Henin quitting..I don't blame Serena...I blame Sharapova....that Bagel at the Aussie destroyed Henin mentally.

Joe Pike
10-16-2009, 10:33 AM
I don't mean dominate the WTA tour, I mean dominate in matches.. I started watching tennis in 1987 or so. Never have I seen Graf blow away opponents like Serena has done. ...


Go and watch the youtube clips of Graf destroying the greatest grass-court player ever in the last 2 sets of the Wimbledon 1988 final. Graf won 12 of the last 13 games against Navratilova, breaking her in 7 service games in a row.

Or have a look at Graf beating Seles silly in the Wimbledon 1992 final (6-2 6-1). Or maybe the AO 1994 final against Sanchez (6-0 6-2). Or what about the FO 1988 final (6-0 6-0 against Zvereva)?

Navratilova was a 9-time Wimbledon champ. Seles has won 9 slams, 6 of them in 1991/92. Sanchez has 4 slam titles, 2 of them in 1994.

What did Serena do in comparison?

Joe Pike
10-16-2009, 10:37 AM
I'd say that the WS and Henin are the only players from this era that would still have near the level of success they have had in this era had they played in Graf's era. Serena is stronger competition than any player in Graf's era, save for Seles and aging Navratilova. The rest of Graf's competition was really ducks when it comes to talking about all time greats - Sanchez-Vicario was solid, but nothing special, same with Martinez, Sabbatini, though I'd put ASV a level above those players.

Sabatini was able to beat Graf 11 times.
A true duck ...

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 11:15 AM
The Only Slam I could see Clijsters taking from Serena would have been the 2008 US Open maybe had she stayed and kept up her form, but Clijsters wasn't winning one of her Wimbledons..or any of the others...As for Henin quitting..I don't blame Serena...I blame Sharapova....that Bagel at the Aussie destroyed Henin mentally.

The beatdown Serena gave her in Miami didn't help matters either. Losing to Safina on clay was the final straw though.

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 11:16 AM
Sabatini was able to beat Graf 11 times.
A true duck ...

11 of 40, and only once in a slam....I stand by my assesment.

Bertie B
10-16-2009, 11:46 AM
Davenport...98 weeks
Hingis.......209 weeks
Henin........117 weeks

Are these numbers right? I'm sure Davenport has been #1 much longer than 98 weeks, and longer than Henin. Wasn't she Year End #1 four times?

EtePras
10-16-2009, 11:58 AM
ah think serena williams overated nuh uh

longst
10-16-2009, 12:04 PM
For sure Serena benefitted from Henin/Kim early retirement, and Sharapova non-existent in 2008 b/c of the shoulder injury.

Winning slams without them is alot easier.

Sharapova encounters with the Williams sister has been on the losing side. She posed no real threat to them. Only one in your list that did was Henin and maybe Clisjters. We'll see next year how it pans out but in the past the only real threat in the majors was Henin and that wasn't major like Roddick vs Federer where you know who's gonna win.

Chadwixx
10-16-2009, 01:05 PM
Let say Murray and Nole walk away from the ATP, and Del Potro hammered with shoulder injury this year, don't you think people will say Fed/Nadal had a depleted field? Of course, and that's exactly happened in the WTA. It's not Serena's fault but the fact is the WTA lost some great players. I'm not taking any slams away from her, but she could of faced stiffer resistent. Plus, if Serena is so good she should of been undispute #1, but a slamless player Jankovic and Safina were the #1 most of the time. That's not dominant and it's the reason she's overrated. In fact, Serena right only only has a total of 74 weeks at #1, that's well behind some of the players in this decade.

Davenport...98 weeks
Hingis.......209 weeks
Henin........117 weeks

Keep in mind these players even have a shorter career than Serena. Is serena overrated? Yes. She is lucky to even considered a tier 2 great(and I'm being nice).

Great post

She is overrated because people dont take her inconsistencies into account.

IvanAndreevich
10-16-2009, 01:08 PM
She's overweight. Don't care about her being overrated or not :lol:

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 01:16 PM
Great post

She is overrated because people dont take her inconsistencies into account.

People do take that into account, it's inherently into account by the fact she only won 3 slams between 2004-2008. But that does not change the fact that when she's at her best she's one of the top 10 of all time, and now even not at her best she's still atop the women's game. Even if Henin were still playing (which I know you're going to bring up :roll:), Serena would still be at or near the top of the game. The stretch Serena had from 2002-2003, up until her knee injury, was one of the best runs in the history of the women's game, and against one of the strongest fields in the women's game. I don't see how someone who has won 11 slam can be overrated, she's not on the Graf/Navratilova/Evert/etc level of greatness, but she is a tier below it.

Chadwixx
10-16-2009, 01:23 PM
But that does not change the fact that when she's at her best she's one of the top 10 of all time, and now even not at her best she's still atop the women's game.

Thats the problem, she is never at her best.

She is only on top of the womens game today because its such a weak field. She didnt take back her #1 because she won, she got it because safina lost. Thats what womens tennis has become. #1 in the world without winning, much like the complaints when safina was #1.

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 01:30 PM
Thats the problem, she is never at her best.

She is only on top of the womens game today because its such a weak field. She didnt take back her #1 because she won, she got it because safina lost. Thats what womens tennis has become. #1 in the world without winning, much like the complaints when safina was #1.

The time from 2002-2003 is what most use when judging peak Serena. Serena's peak was albeit short due to injury, but still one of the best runs seen in the WTA. And it the weak field now doesn't change the 11 slams Serena has won. You don't win 11 slams by luck, no matter how weak the field is. In historical context, Serena will not be downgraded b/c of the weak field, she will still be looked at as an all time great b/c of her accomplishments in 2002-2003, where she was dominant in one of the deepest fields in the history of the WTA.

flying24
10-16-2009, 01:52 PM
If you really think Clijsters would have been the one taking slams from Serena, you're dreaming. And don't blame Serena for Henin quitting.

Really. Is that why Clijsters was able to beat Serena in straight sets in only her 3rd event back in nearly 3 years? Is that why Clijsters played Serena virtually equal on hard courts once Clijsters began to prime in late 2002 (a straight sets win, a straight sets loss, and a 3 set loss Kim was up 5-1 in the 3rd) back when Serena was at her absolute peak and twice the player she is today? Is that why Kuznetsova who was never close to the caliber of player Clijsters is (check out their head to head) was able to beat Serena at the French this year and should have beaten her in Australia this year too where she was up a set and 5-3. Werent you telling people who thought Clijsters had a chance at the U.S Open they were dreaming too? I guess all of that is a mirage and dream as well then.

As for Henin, Serena not only won 3 slams since Henin quit but her only 2 slams from late 2003-Henin's retirement when Henin was the queen of womens tennis during this time frame were 2 Henin did not play as well. Henin's 4-1 record in slams vs Serena since 2003 speaks for itself. We get it, you love Serena. However she will be lucky to win even 1 slam next year and any future years now with some real competition back. She simply isnt the player she used to be and she has benefited greatly from the shallow competition the last couple years. Anyone disputing this and thinking she will still be the dominant slam player with tougher opponents back now, barring an unlikely major rededication to fitness and training, are the ones who are really dreaming.

lambielspins
10-16-2009, 02:37 PM
Really. Is that why Clijsters was able to beat Serena in straight sets in only her 3rd event back in nearly 3 years? Is that why Clijsters played Serena virtually equal on hard courts once Clijsters began to prime in late 2002 (a straight sets win, a straight sets loss, and a 3 set loss Kim was up 5-1 in the 3rd) back when Serena was at her absolute peak and twice the player she is today? Is that why Kuznetsova who was never close to the caliber of player Clijsters is (check out their head to head) was able to beat Serena at the French this year and should have beaten her in Australia this year too where she was up a set and 5-3. Werent you telling people who thought Clijsters had a chance at the U.S Open they were dreaming too? I guess all of that is a mirage and dream as well then.

As for Henin, Serena not only won 3 slams since Henin quit but her only 2 slams from late 2003-Henin's retirement when Henin was the queen of womens tennis during this time frame were 2 Henin did not play as well. Henin's 4-1 record in slams vs Serena since 2003 speaks for itself. We get it, you love Serena. However she will be lucky to win even 1 slam next year and any future years now with some real competition back. She simply isnt the player she used to be and she has benefited greatly from the shallow competition the last couple years. Anyone disputing this and thinking she will still be the dominant slam player with tougher opponents back now, barring an unlikely major rededication to fitness and training, are the ones who are really dreaming.

Very well said.

lambielspins
10-16-2009, 02:39 PM
You're biased at best, you need to relax.
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/headtohead/justine-henin_2255881_3541/0,,12781~3541~9044,00.html

Serena leads Kim 7-2.

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/headtohead/kim-clijsters_2255881_1583/0,,12781~1583~9044,00.html

Again you are obviously biased at the least.... at the worst... you need to see a shrink.

flying explained it perfectly. In the few matches Serena and Kim played with Kim in her prime and Serena still at her peak they even played virtually even. Kim looks like she has returned as good as ever, while Serena is nowhere near the player she was for even those few matches where Kim and her were virtual equals. Serena played over half of those matches when Kim was clearly before her prime AND Serena in her prime so of course she is going to have an overall one sided head to head considering that. The head to head you show of Justine only shows since Justine won her first slam she has had the clear edge over Serena overall especialy in slams. Players who arent anywhere near the calibre of even Clijsters, let alone Henin, have been a handful for Serena in slams these last couple years, and she cant even dominate the current pitiful WTA field which has no opponents for her anywhere near the calibre of Henin, Clijsters, or even a healthy Sharapova (other than Venus on grass). Perhaps you are unable to actually read or comprehend basic english which is your problem, not anyone elses.

LDVTennis
10-16-2009, 02:41 PM
You're biased at best, you need to relax.
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/headtohead/justine-henin_2255881_3541/0,,12781~3541~9044,00.html

Serena leads Kim 7-2.

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/headtohead/kim-clijsters_2255881_1583/0,,12781~1583~9044,00.html

Again you are obviously biased at the least.... at the worst... you need to see a shrink.

Flying24 doesn't need me to defend him. But, he's a smart guy and knows a great deal about the history of the game. I always learn something from his posts.

As for you, I can tell you are new around here. You've also got a lot to learn. If things ever get to complicated for you here, you can always go back to wtaworld.

boredone3456
10-16-2009, 03:09 PM
Really. Is that why Clijsters was able to beat Serena in straight sets in only her 3rd event back in nearly 3 years? Is that why Clijsters played Serena virtually equal on hard courts once Clijsters began to prime in late 2002 (a straight sets win, a straight sets loss, and a 3 set loss Kim was up 5-1 in the 3rd) back when Serena was at her absolute peak and twice the player she is today? Is that why Kuznetsova who was never close to the caliber of player Clijsters is (check out their head to head) was able to beat Serena at the French this year and should have beaten her in Australia this year too where she was up a set and 5-3. Werent you telling people who thought Clijsters had a chance at the U.S Open they were dreaming too? I guess all of that is a mirage and dream as well then.

As for Henin, Serena not only won 3 slams since Henin quit but her only 2 slams from late 2003-Henin's retirement when Henin was the queen of womens tennis during this time frame were 2 Henin did not play as well. Henin's 4-1 record in slams vs Serena since 2003 speaks for itself. We get it, you love Serena. However she will be lucky to win even 1 slam next year and any future years now with some real competition back. She simply isnt the player she used to be and she has benefited greatly from the shallow competition the last couple years. Anyone disputing this and thinking she will still be the dominant slam player with tougher opponents back now, barring an unlikely major rededication to fitness and training, are the ones who are really dreaming.

While everything you say is true the thing I would say is, that even though clijsters played well against Serena at her peak, her peak was very sporadic...2003, the summer of 2005 and then she went downhill steadily and then retired to start a family. She was playing pretty poorly when she left the tour the first time and her last match until her resurgence was a loss to Julia Vakulenko, Kim only seemed to play her best in spurts, while for the most part she struggled with his form due to injuries. Would she, had she stayed, really have been able to challenge Serena at all the slams Serena won. Kim, while a good player, would have never really stood a chance at Wimbledon this year, Venus was in deadly form up until the final where she caved out against Serena, Serena played pretty bad against Dementieva, but Kim on grass vs Serena on Grass I would favor Serena even in their current states. The Australian, maybe, Serena had a ton of luck their yes, so i guess she could have denied Serena the title but even then depending on circumstances it doesn't mean she wins it. The US Open in 08 would be arguably the one she could have won, if she was in form. Based on the way she was playing before she left the first time her heart was no longer in the game so I highly doubt she would have challenged Serena much. Clijsters may have completely dismantled Serena at the US Open, but she was back and her heart was in it...it wasn't in it at all when she left the tour the first time and I think it would have taken monumental effort just to get her head back in it...not to mention regain any kind of good form...because she didn't consistantly have a ton of that back then either.

halalula1234
10-16-2009, 09:24 PM
stooooopid pooost! she is not over rated but isnt up there with graff and stuff as well. she hasnt been consistent enough like graf and nav had. if she gets a few more slams she could be a little under them. ppl hate serena too much like how they hate bartoli because shes tubby.

longst
10-16-2009, 10:02 PM
Flying24 doesn't need me to defend him. But, he's a smart guy and knows a great deal about the history of the game. I always learn something from his posts.

As for you, I can tell you are new around here. You've also got a lot to learn. If things ever get to complicated for you here, you can always go back to wtaworld.


Honestly... do you listen to yourself when you talk? It's gibberish.

longst
10-16-2009, 10:05 PM
flying explained it perfectly. In the few matches Serena and Kim played with Kim in her prime and Serena still at her peak they even played virtually even. Kim looks like she has returned as good as ever, while Serena is nowhere near the player she was for even those few matches where Kim and her were virtual equals. Serena played over half of those matches when Kim was clearly before her prime AND Serena in her prime so of course she is going to have an overall one sided head to head considering that. The head to head you show of Justine only shows since Justine won her first slam she has had the clear edge over Serena overall especialy in slams. Players who arent anywhere near the calibre of even Clijsters, let alone Henin, have been a handful for Serena in slams these last couple years, and she cant even dominate the current pitiful WTA field which has no opponents for her anywhere near the calibre of Henin, Clijsters, or even a healthy Sharapova (other than Venus on grass). Perhaps you are unable to actually read or comprehend basic english which is your problem, not anyone elses.


Honestly... do you listen to yourself when you talk? It's nonsense. If you really believe this... I feel sorry for you.

OHBH
10-16-2009, 10:09 PM
She may be ugly but you just can't deny that game.

OHBH
10-16-2009, 10:10 PM
57% voted yes???????? COME ON PEOPLE
don't give into mere suggestion

longst
10-16-2009, 10:12 PM
57% voted yes???????? COME ON PEOPLE
don't give into mere suggestion


What??:-?:-?:-?

jamesblakefan#1
10-16-2009, 11:05 PM
Really. Is that why Clijsters was able to beat Serena in straight sets in only her 3rd event back in nearly 3 years? Is that why Clijsters played Serena virtually equal on hard courts once Clijsters began to prime in late 2002 (a straight sets win, a straight sets loss, and a 3 set loss Kim was up 5-1 in the 3rd) back when Serena was at her absolute peak and twice the player she is today? Is that why Kuznetsova who was never close to the caliber of player Clijsters is (check out their head to head) was able to beat Serena at the French this year and should have beaten her in Australia this year too where she was up a set and 5-3. Werent you telling people who thought Clijsters had a chance at the U.S Open they were dreaming too? I guess all of that is a mirage and dream as well then.

As for Henin, Serena not only won 3 slams since Henin quit but her only 2 slams from late 2003-Henin's retirement when Henin was the queen of womens tennis during this time frame were 2 Henin did not play as well. Henin's 4-1 record in slams vs Serena since 2003 speaks for itself. We get it, you love Serena. However she will be lucky to win even 1 slam next year and any future years now with some real competition back. She simply isnt the player she used to be and she has benefited greatly from the shallow competition the last couple years. Anyone disputing this and thinking she will still be the dominant slam player with tougher opponents back now, barring an unlikely major rededication to fitness and training, are the ones who are really dreaming.

Henin benifited from Serena's knee surgery, just as Serena benifited from Henin's quitting. Serena is still a factor in every slam played, even on her worst surface, clay. To say she'll be cowering do to the return of Clijsters, who she still owns, and Henin, who she clobbered last time they saw one another, is ridiculous. Serena is a much bigger obstacle for Henin, than Henin is for Serena.

flying24
10-17-2009, 12:41 AM
Serena is a much bigger obstacle for Henin, than Henin is for Serena.

Unfortunately the facts of the last 7 years fail to back your statement up. I already mentioned the fact Serena has not won a slam since Wimbledon 2003 which Justine has even been in the draw, which you for some reason continously ignore. In the 5 times they have met in slams since the start of 2003 Justine has eliminated Serena 4 of those times and Serena has eliminated Justine only 1 time. Lastly Serena is absolutely ZERO threat to Henin on her favorite surface (clay) at this point in time and hasnt been for many years now, while Henin is a threat to Serena on every surface considering she beat her on all surfaces as recently as just 2 years ago. So tell me again where is the indication that Serena is a bigger threat to Justine than vice versa, or where that has ever been the case for a long time now.

Joe Pike
10-17-2009, 03:37 AM
Henin benifited from Serena's knee surgery, just as Serena benifited from Henin's quitting. Serena is still a factor in every slam played, even on her worst surface, clay. To say she'll be cowering do to the return of Clijsters, who she still owns, and Henin, who she clobbered last time they saw one another, is ridiculous. Serena is a much bigger obstacle for Henin, than Henin is for Serena.



Who won the last three slam matches, Justine or Serena?

navratilovafan
10-17-2009, 03:39 AM
Who won the last three slam matches, Justine or Serena?

jamesblakefan is an excellent poster but arguing with him about Serena is a waste. He is a huge Serena fan and too biased towards her to see things from an objective standpoint when it comes to Serena.

jamesblakefan#1
10-17-2009, 05:23 AM
jamesblakefan is an excellent poster but arguing with him about Serena is a waste. He is a huge Serena fan and too biased towards her to see things from an objective standpoint when it comes to Serena.

If Henin had kept playing, and had not retired, and had remained in her 2008 form, it's hard to say definitively that she would have taken any slams from Serena. Henin was burned out in 2008, and was not the same player that beat Serena in 3 slams in 2007, as evidenced by the beatdowns she was handed by Sharapova in Australia and Serena in Miami. Therefore I do not think it is right to simply say that Henin would have won every slam Serena's won since 2008, seeing as how Henin was already running on fumes in early 2008 and probably would have run out of gas or taken time off for injury either way, even if she didn't retire, which she did.

Either way, I don't see people making similar concessions about Henin's 03 US and 04 AO titles, which Serena missed due to knee injury.

THUNDERVOLLEY
10-17-2009, 05:55 AM
flying explained it perfectly. In the few matches Serena and Kim played with Kim in her prime and Serena still at her peak they even played virtually even. Kim looks like she has returned as good as ever, while Serena is nowhere near the player she was for even those few matches where Kim and her were virtual equals. Serena played over half of those matches when Kim was clearly before her prime AND Serena in her prime so of course she is going to have an overall one sided head to head considering that. The head to head you show of Justine only shows since Justine won her first slam she has had the clear edge over Serena overall especialy in slams. Players who arent anywhere near the calibre of even Clijsters, let alone Henin, have been a handful for Serena in slams these last couple years, and she cant even dominate the current pitiful WTA field which has no opponents for her anywhere near the calibre of Henin, Clijsters, or even a healthy Sharapova (other than Venus on grass). Perhaps you are unable to actually read or comprehend basic english which is your problem, not anyone elses.


All of this can be settled in this way: if Clijsters was the great player some suggest she is, why the failure to win more during her original run? Why no Wimbledon titles (where one assumes Henin would not be her primary threat, given her utter failure to win there)?

ZhengJieisagoddess
10-17-2009, 06:48 AM
She's not overrated. But...The thing about Serena is that she could have been a lot better than she is. She just has other priorities.
But even if she did focus, I don't think she could ever get to the point where she would be mentioned in the same breath as Martina and Steffi.
I'd say she was a third-tier legend, with Martina and Steffi being at the top, followed by Chrissie, Billie Jean and Margaret Court on the second tier.

SoCal10s
10-17-2009, 06:55 AM
this thread is an epic fail... how can she be overrated when she has already won over 20 grand slams titles ? and doing that while most of the time out of shape and not giving 100% to her profession ?

longst
10-17-2009, 06:58 AM
this thread is an epic fail... how can she be overrated when she has already won over 20 grand slams titles ? and doing that while most of the time out of shape and not giving 100% to her profession ?


First thread that speaks to the point. Agassi won 8 singles slams and Serena 11 (plus doubles makes it 21 actually) and this overrarted business. The word "haters" comes to mind.

longst
10-17-2009, 07:02 AM
The thing about Serena is that she could have been a lot better than she is. She just has other priorities.
But even if she did focus, I don't think she could ever get to the point where she would be mentioned in the same breath as Martina and Steffi.
I'd say she was a third-tier legend, with Martina and Steffi being at the top, followed by Chrissie, Billie Jean and Margaret Court on the second tier.


Actually your order should be Maraget Court won 24 slams (singles) thats more than anyoneon the planet. male or female. So she should be above Martina N.

TheTruth
10-17-2009, 07:36 AM
Ridiculous thread. If anything she is vastly underrated on places like TW planet.

Best post of the thread. No need to read further after this great summation.

longst
10-17-2009, 07:47 AM
Last thing I am saying on this.... if Serena is underrated then Agassi is underrated also. He won 8 she won 11 slams. So if you see the logic with that then... God help you. Really.

TheTruth
10-17-2009, 08:12 AM
this thread is an epic fail... how can she be overrated when she has already won over 20 grand slams titles ? and doing that while most of the time out of shape and not giving 100% to her profession ?

It's mind-boggling to me too.

lambielspins
10-17-2009, 08:15 AM
All of this can be settled in this way: if Clijsters was the great player some suggest she is, why the failure to win more during her original run? Why no Wimbledon titles (where one assumes Henin would not be her primary threat, given her utter failure to win there)?

I am not saying Clijsters is a legendary player as of yet. I am saying she is a real threat to Serena in her current state. I am pretty sure you would agree with me Serena is nowhere near the player she was at her peak from 1999-2003. That is the Serena who has made herself a legend and all time great today, not the Serena of the last 5-6 years.

As for Kim her biggest weakness in her first career if you will was her weak mental game. She had the game to win more big matches and titles but sometimes in big matches vs Henin (especialy vs Henin, it was like Henin put some withcraft over her she was so spooked by her in big matches), Serena, Venus, and Capriati she would choke away significant leads and chances to win big semis and finals. It is quite possible, especialy if the U.S Open is any indiciation, that the time off and having a different life now has given her a new sense of perspective which will lead to increased focus and relaxation to not choke in those big matches vs her biggest rivals when she gets those opportunities.

As for Wimbledon Kim's weakest surface by far is grass so she will most likely never win there.

TMF
10-17-2009, 08:41 AM
Last thing I am saying on this.... if Serena is underrated then Agassi is underrated also. He won 8 she won 11 slams.


You can't compare ATP to WTA. It's harder to win slam in men's tennis. Just look at their history....Court, Graf, Martina, Chris won 24, 22, 18, 18 respectively. No player in mens' tennis have ever came close to win that much.

Adi-das
10-17-2009, 08:42 AM
You can't compare ATP to WTA. It's harder to win slam in men's tennis. Just look at their history....Court, Graf, Martina, Chris won 24, 22, 18, 18 respectively. No player in mens' tennis have ever came close to win that much.

Longst's logic is flawed. Good luck convincing him.

grafselesfan
10-17-2009, 08:52 AM
You can't compare ATP to WTA. It's harder to win slam in men's tennis. Just look at their history....Court, Graf, Martina, Chris won 24, 22, 18, 18 respectively. No player in mens' tennis have ever came close to win that much.

This I agree completely with. It is pointless to even compare slam # wins of the men to the women so any argument that does that is already a fail.

lambielspins
10-17-2009, 09:10 AM
The fact that there are more votes for Serena being overrated speaks to the inherent Serena hate some have.

Actually many people have given good reasons (I am not referring to the people who tried to bring racism into the thread) as to why Serena could be considered overrated. Also overrated does not have to be extremely overrated, it can even be just slightly. However at the very least there is a good case that she is atleast slightly overrated given a variety of factors:

1. The prevailing consensus she has truly benefited from the weakened competition (Henin's abrupt retirement, Kim already being retired, Maria constantly hurt, and the overall field collapasing and being full of mental midgets with limited talent) in the last 2 years especialy to pad her career stats when it had appeared her best days were behind her, and days of reigning as even the unofficial top dog were long past. Her quality of play, and immense struggles in the slams she did win with players far less quality than those I mentioned, also indicates her increased fortunes of the last couple years are not related to any improvement or resurgence in her play, but instead to what has happpened to others around her.

2. That there is more to a players career than slam wins. An 11 slam winner having fewer tournament titles than say Davenport and Clijsters is truly pathetic in a certain way. And no I am certainly not saying Davenport or Clijsters should rank higher all time than her, but that this could be considered a major mark against her career is hardly unreasonable. It is short sighted to think all that a player should be evaluated by are slam wins, otherwise Court would be the womens GOAT over Navratilova, Graf, and Evert which she is to very few people (at best maybe 3rd all time just over Evert to some). She also has only ended a year ranked #1 once, maybe twice if she does it this year. Again also low for an 11 slam winner, particularly when not only Henin but even players such as Davenport and Hingis have done it more often.

3. That she does not even take fitness or training completely seriously anymore, something that is expected of a major champion. Her winning 3 slams inspite of that these last 2 years due to all the retirements/absences also speaks again to the very weak field she has benefited from to recently pad her career stats that I spoke of.

4. The fact that despite that her career overall is still clearly above Henin's at this point, Henin actually achieved alot more than her and was clearly the better player for the entire time span (not just some of it) from mid 2003 until the end of 2007 near the time she retired. Basically regardless of whether Henin ever challenges or surpasses Serena's overall career, Serena was still an inferior player to the currently 2nd greatest player of her own generation for almost 4 years.

5. That she is hyped in the U.S as being an even more dominant and successful player than she actually is. The way many of them talk about her you would think she already had the same # of slams and achievements as people like Graf and Navratilova, rather than even her best achievements and totals being in the bottom of the top 10.

TMF
10-17-2009, 09:39 AM
Are these numbers right? I'm sure Davenport has been #1 much longer than 98 weeks, and longer than Henin. Wasn't she Year End #1 four times?

According to wiki, Davenport had 98 weeks. Here's the players that are #1 in this era:

Hingis...209 weeks
Henin....117
Davenport...98
Serena...73
Mauresmo....39
Safina...25
Clijster....19
Jankovic...18
Sharapova...17
Venus...11
Ivanonic....9

Serena ranked 5th, and keep in mind some of the players below her are still young and will have oppotunity to add more in the future.


You are right, Davenport ended the year #1 for 4 years.

Davenport...4 years
Henin.....3
Hingis....3
Jankovic...1
Serena....1

For sure, Serena didn't dominate in this decade and that's why I think she's overrated.

lambielspins
10-17-2009, 10:09 AM
According to wiki, Davenport had 98 weeks. Here's the players that are #1 in this era:

Hingis...209 weeks
Henin....117
Davenport...98
Serena...73
Mauresmo....39
Safina...25
Clijster....19
Jankovic...18
Sharapova...17
Venus...11
Ivanonic....9

Serena ranked 5th, and keep in mind some of the players below her are still young and will have oppotunity to add more in the future.


You are right, Davenport ended the year #1 for 4 years.

Davenport...4 years
Henin.....3
Hingis....3
Jankovic...1
Serena....1

For sure, Serena didn't dominate in this decade and that's why I think she's overrated.

Indeed. I dont see how anyone can deny Serena having fewer weeks and many times fewer year end #1s than Davenport isnt bad for a champion of her stature. Again she clearly ranks higher than someone like Davenport all time of course, but she also probably deserves to rank lower all time than her 11 slams would place her. People who think all that matters in a players career are slam wins really have a very narrow viewpoint. As I said is Court the female GOAT over Graf and Navratilova to many people? No, I guess her 24 slams isnt the be all and end all to her place in history, just like Serena's 11 current slams do not automaticaly place her in the top 8 all time either. Lastly the Australian Open reasoning for Court (which btw is very valid) is no different than the fields Serena has won nearly half her slams against, which have been so bad they are basically the equivalent of the old Australian Open more or less.

jamesblakefan#1
10-17-2009, 10:18 AM
Indeed. I dont see how anyone can deny Serena having fewer weeks and many times fewer year end #1s than Davenport isnt bad for a champion of her stature. Again she clearly ranks higher than someone like Davenport all time of course, but she also probably deserves to rank lower all time than her 11 slams would place her. People who think all that matters in a players career are slam wins really have a very narrow viewpoint. As I said is Court the female GOAT over Graf and Navratilova to many people? No, I guess her 24 slams isnt the be all and end all to her place in history, just like Serena's 11 current slams do not automaticaly place her in the top 8 all time either. Lastly the Australian Open reasoning for Court (which btw is very valid) is no different than the fields Serena has won nearly half her slams against, which have been so bad they are basically the equivalent of the old Australian Open more or less.

Navratilova and Graf had their fair share of weak fields as well, though admittedly not as weak as ones the past few years. I don't think you can deny Serena just because of the field. The question has to be if Serena didn't win these slams, who that is not playing would have? Henin is debatable, given her early 2008 form if she had kept playing it is no lock she would have won slams from Serena. And really it's only 3 slams difference, I don't think people look at slams in women's tennis as much as a player's peak level when determining greatness, given the fact that Seles is brought up in all time great debates, though she has far less accomplishments than others and flaws even before the unfortunate incident which took prime years from her.

lambielspins
10-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Navratilova and Graf had their fair share of weak fields as well, though admittedly not as weak as ones the past few years. I don't think you can deny Serena just because of the field. The question has to be if Serena didn't win these slams, who that is not playing would have? Henin is debatable, given her early 2008 form if she had kept playing it is no lock she would have won slams from Serena. And really it's only 3 slams difference, I don't think people look at slams in women's tennis as much as a player's peak level when determining greatness, given the fact that Seles is brought up in all time great debates, though she has far less accomplishments than others and flaws even before the unfortunate incident which took prime years from her.

I actually agree Navratilova has had her share of weak competition. I think if it wasnt for her amazing doubles success, dominance head to head over Evert herself when Evert was still near her best diminishing Evert to some degree, the big asterixes on Graf and Court with the crimincal act of the Seles stabbing, and the Aussie Open 60s and 70s status, Navratilova wouldnt even be a major GOAT contender at all. Of course all those things are true which brings those 4 almost equal, with Graf and Navratilova slightly ahead of the other two as the main GOAT choices to most.

As for your question to who would take slams away from Serena I would say in her form of the last two years which is still light years removed from her best all of Henin, Clijsters, and a healthy Sharapova were very capable. These three women are head and shoulders above the other top women of the current field (other than Venus on grass and only grass given that she is clearly past her prime overall as a player) which Serena has struggled significantly win even in the 3 slams she won and is unable to dominate overall. Everyone will form their own opinion of course but I dont think there is anyway Henin would have continued playing as poorly as she did the first several months of 2008 if she kept playing. She hadnt played at that low a level since probably 2000, and she is too hard a worker to not have found her groove and confidence again, particularly with opportunities the weak field affords her to. As for Clijsters her career head to head with Serena really means nothing if we are discussing her current chances vs her, since late 2002 their head to head is 2-2 (one of the wins Serena recovering from 5-1 down in the 3rd set), and 3 of those 4 matches when Serena was still at her peak in 2002 and 2003 which she is nowhere near now. With Kim beating Serena in only her 3rd tournament back and her last true dominance over Kim way back in mid 2002 when both Serena was at her career peak and Kim a pre-prime bottom end top 10 player, you cant really expect others to concede your opinion she would have been no real threat to the current Serena, even though you are entitled to believe that yourself. Sharapova is the least likely as she is a terrific matchup for Serena, but the only times Serena has played Maria since 2005 she has been badly injured and unable to serve properly, and Maria without her serve to start points and set the tone for her overall game is about 60% the player she is otherwise. A healthy up and coming Maria was certainly no easy task for Serena in 2004-January 2005 when I dont think her level was much different than today (both far removed from 2002-2003 and far above 2005-2006).

You make a good point about peak level of play though being largely what people evaluate greatness by, sometimes even more than slam wins. It is true Serena's peak level of play in 2002-2003 is outstanding, some have even argued the greatest in womens tennis history. She probably does get some well deserved bonus points for that. I do think she has other holes in her career though which atleast by me and some others dont go unnoticed, which is what I was saying. In Seles's case most people I hear now rank her only 9th or 10th all time, which is exactly where her achievements put her. The only people I notice any longer who discuss her in GOAT status in the slighest are the biggest Selestials of all, the "woulda coulda shoulda" club who are increasingly drowned out altogether as Seles's career goes further into the past. Basically I havent seen for a very long time anyone who didnt come across as an enormous Seles fan who ranks her any higher than the bottom part of the top 10 all time. Which is sad in a way but true.

Joe Pike
10-17-2009, 10:44 AM
You can't compare ATP to WTA. It's harder to win slam in men's tennis. Just look at their history....Court, Graf, Martina, Chris won 24, 22, 18, 18 respectively. No player in mens' tennis have ever came close to win that much.


But more men have won 5+ slams than women.
So it's harder to win slams at the WTA.

jamesblakefan#1
10-17-2009, 10:51 AM
But more men have won 5+ slams than women.
So it's harder to win slams at the WTA.

I'd say this is due to the fact that the ATP has always been classically deeper than the WTA. There have been several periods during the WTA where the great players are so much better than the rest of the field, it's not even funny. The field now is bad, but this is not the first bad field of the WTA.

My point is, the great players in the WTA are usually able to dominate easier and for a longer period of time than greats on the men's side; this fact is beared out when comparing slam totals all time on both sides. WTA is topheavy, while ATP is more distributed in slam totals. I would disagree with the assessment, it depends on what your definition of harder is, but on the men's side there are more people capable of winning slams, but this does not mean it is easier.

Chadwixx
10-17-2009, 11:24 AM
But more men have won 5+ slams than women.
So it's harder to win slams at the WTA.

They play 2 out of 3 sets in normal tournaments, they play 2 out of 3 sets in grand slams. I dont think grand slams on the womens side mean very much. Just another tournament, only they get more rest inbetween matches