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Chopin
10-12-2009, 11:43 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/12/rafael-nadal-injury-atp

Nadal is right--again.

THUNDERVOLLEY
10-12-2009, 11:51 AM
Of course he's right. This applies to the WTA, as well. The greed and thoughtless establishment of too many tournaments hurts careers though the injury and burnout Nadal mentioned.

Ah, but even amongst fans, instead of being concerned for the players, some only think of their desire for entertainment--player health (and ultimately longevity) be damned.

namelessone
10-12-2009, 11:57 AM
This was true even before Nadal was on the scene,I don't see why it is so surprising to so many people. That is why players miss certain events or even tank in some mandatory events in the first rounds. Sometimes it feels like there is too much tennis and that it isn't evened out properly throughout the season. Not to mention the fact that 50% of the tour is played on the toughest surface for the body,HC. What the hell happened to grass? Grass season lasts about a month or so. That's just wrong.Clay is the only survivor from the HC onslaught,claiming about a third of all atp tournaments. And where the hell did carpet go to?

mandy01
10-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Then he should just not play..he can afford it.

Adi-das
10-12-2009, 12:16 PM
Then he should just not play..he can afford it.

That's a losers game.

AAAA
10-12-2009, 12:38 PM
This is like Nadal saying he is feeling burnt out.

aphex
10-12-2009, 12:45 PM
*yawn*

wake me up when he doesn't oppose what doesnt suit HIM.

(i.e. drug tests, the tour schedule, hardcourts etc...)

THUNDERVOLLEY
10-12-2009, 12:51 PM
*yawn*

wake me up when he doesn't oppose what doesnt suit HIM.

(i.e. drug tests, the tour schedule, hardcourts etc...)

He's not the only player against too many tournaments. He-like others--are mere players, not workhorses or machines.

aphex
10-12-2009, 12:53 PM
He's not the only player against too many tournaments. He-like others--are mere players, not workhorses or machines.

give me 20 names (out of 1800 ranked atp pros)

drakulie
10-12-2009, 12:55 PM
Serena makes too many excu...... oops :shock: >>> sorry, I didn't realize this was, Nadal talking.

Cesc Fabregas
10-12-2009, 12:58 PM
Serena makes too many excu...... oops :shock: >>> sorry, I didn't realize this was, Nadal talking.

What do you have against Nadal? Maybe he didn't sign an autograph at a tournament you were at? Maybe he hasn't been responding to your letters? Or maybe he just has a winning record against your hero?

drakulie
10-12-2009, 01:03 PM
^^She , erhmm I mean he has a winning record against, Mcenroe??

settolove
10-12-2009, 01:05 PM
He's not the only player against too many tournaments. He-like others--are mere players, not workhorses or machines.

Ok, how many of those players complaining are outside of the top ten? The top one hundred?

It seems like it was good enough while they were climbing up the rankings but now they are at the top, its not a good thing. But they don't want to just stop playing those tournaments because then that might affect their ranking and they can't pick up those hefty appearance fees if they fall down the rankings. :cry: So of course the tour must reduce so they can play less tournaments and still get big appearance fees. :)

jamesblakefan#1
10-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Blake, Nadal, Safin, and Roddick are all on record in the past year saying the season is too long, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones that have those sentiments. Don't kill the messenger - don't attack Nadal for saying what everyone else believes and knows is true, the season is too long.

mandy01
10-12-2009, 01:09 PM
^^ Nadal knows well that the tour will suffer if the ATP gives in to his convenience.Sure,Nadal is not the only one to complain about the tour.But then again,the guy dosent complain he literally whines all the time (and mostly when he loses.) .He'd do better to come up with a reasonable solution

TheMagicianOfPrecision
10-12-2009, 01:13 PM
Blake, Nadal, Safin, and Roddick are all on record in the past year saying the season is too long, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones that have those sentiments. Don't kill the messenger - don't attack Nadal for saying what everyone else believes and knows is true, the season is too long.
Im sure this wouldnt be a problem for players like Blake-no disrespect i like him and i even saw when he won Stockholm Open the other year and he gets a lot of appearance money for playing tournaments so im sure he shouldnt have a problem with this, and in all fairness neither Blake or Safin has had any deep runs in tournaments for years.

jamesblakefan#1
10-12-2009, 01:15 PM
^^ Nadal knows well that the tour will suffer if the ATP gives in to his convenience.Sure,Nadal is not the only one to complain about the tour.But then again,the guy dosent complain he literally whines all the time (and mostly when he loses.) .He'd do better to come up with a reasonable solution

But isn't he right though? The season is too long, that is why so many players burn out on both tours. It's ridiculous how in tennis you're viewed as old at 25, while in other sports you can play well into your mid and late 30s. Don't you think the length of the season has something to do with guy's careers being so short in comparison to other sports?

TheMagicianOfPrecision
10-12-2009, 01:19 PM
I have a solution, lets erase some off the clay-court tournaments!! How about that! And extend the grasscourt-"season"...if 3-4 weeks deserves too be called a season.

mandy01
10-12-2009, 01:21 PM
But isn't he right though? The season is too long, that is why so many players burn out on both tours. It's ridiculous how in tennis you're viewed as old at 25, while in other sports you can play well into your mid and late 30s. Don't you think the length of the season has something to do with guy's careers being so short in comparison to other sports? But on one hand these players demand sky-high appearance fees..leave alone all the ammenities they need and on the other hand they want the ATP to cut short upon its sources of income.Wont work.Tennis is as it is an expensive sport.People outside top 100 still struggle to make it through financially.They need these tournaments.
The fans,again,there are tennis fans all over the world..they deserve fair opportunities to watch their favourite players.
How will a sport like tennis get promoted otherwise?
These are just a few of the problems..I'm sure the ATP could put up a small list.
Fact is-Players like Nadal can afford to be in-charge of their own schedule and can opt out of a few events if they so wish.

drakulie
10-12-2009, 01:22 PM
I have a solution, lets erase some off the clay-court tournaments!! How about that! And extend the grasscourt-"season"...if 3-4 weeks deserves too be called a season.


I think a better idea is for Nadal to go play on the WTA tour.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
10-12-2009, 01:23 PM
I think a better idea is for Nadal to go play on the WTA tour.
Thats actually not a bad idea, lots off baby-mama-drama going on there

JennyS
10-12-2009, 01:25 PM
I think the biggest problem is that you can't go more than a month without there being a mandatory event or Davis Cup tie. So if someone wanted to skip all the tournaments after the US Open, they'd miss three mandatory events, plus they'd possibly "let down their country" if a Davis Cup tie was on the schedule.

So my suggestion is, have all mandatory events AND Davis Cup held during an 8 or 9 month period and then play the rest of the events all year long.

drakulie
10-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Thats actually not a bad idea, lots off baby-mama-drama going on there


Yup, he will be the queen of drama! Although, I'm sure Serena will have a thing or two to say about that.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
10-12-2009, 01:29 PM
Yup, he will be the queen of drama! Although, I'm sure Serena will have a thing or two to say about that.
They would clash soo hard! :shock:

paulorenzo
10-12-2009, 01:32 PM
But isn't he right though? The season is too long, that is why so many players burn out on both tours. It's ridiculous how in tennis you're viewed as old at 25, while in other sports you can play well into your mid and late 30s. Don't you think the length of the season has something to do with guy's careers being so short in comparison to other sports?

good point. my hat goes off to guys who are able to grind it out at the top of the tour, 5+ day tournaments, week in and week out. it sheds some light on how much guys have to go through in order to stay on top and hold the number 1 spot for x number of consecutive weeks.

film1
10-12-2009, 01:32 PM
I agree, It is difficult to have the mental and physical ability, let alone the passion for something you play year round at such a high level.

It's not a reasonable schedule right now and that is one of the big reasons tennis players almost age in dog years.

Carsomyr
10-12-2009, 01:45 PM
He brings up good points, but it's unsurprising that the loudest outcry against the schedule is from the WORST scheduler in tennis history - he could have opted to skip Monte Carlo; he didn't. He could have skipped Beijing and Shanghai, like Roger and Murray, and risk whatever weak punishment the ATP wouldn't dare attack him with anyway; he didn't.

It is too long, but if scheduled correctly, one can effectively avoid burnout and avoid playing an absurd amount of matches. His point about playing the most or second most matches every year is ridiculously whiny; the other members top players have the same expectations on them, yet rarely do their number of matches come remotely close to his. Not just singles, but for whatever reason, he thinks it is a wise decision to play quite a few doubles matches every year, too: over twenty last year and over ten this year.

World Beater
10-12-2009, 02:15 PM
everyone plays the same schedule. So if some players are able to play the full schedule, it is to their full credit.

players at the end of the day are in charge of their performances and their schedule.

Gorecki
10-12-2009, 02:25 PM
yet, he keeps playing doubles...

zagor
10-12-2009, 02:33 PM
If Nadal is so concerned about players getting injuried and being burned out for starters he should lobby for the return of carpet for the entire indoor season as a legitimate surface again since it's easier on the legs than HC and points are much shorter(less rallies,less running around etc.).

Also returning Wimbledon and USO to it's 90s speeds would be great as well since as I said shorter rallies and less running=less injuries.

Gorecki
10-12-2009, 02:36 PM
Player Council
Roger Federer (Pres.)
Rafael Nadal (VP)
Novak Djokovic
Fernando Gonzalez
Peter Luczak
Michael Berrer
Yves Allegro
Eric Butorac
David Martin
Martin Garcia
Jaime Fillol

BreakPoint
10-12-2009, 02:40 PM
What do you have against Nadal? Maybe he didn't sign an autograph at a tournament you were at? Maybe he hasn't been responding to your letters? Or maybe he just has a winning record against your hero?
And what do you have against Federer?

He hasn't been responding to your love letters? :oops:

Carsomyr
10-12-2009, 02:41 PM
If Nadal is so concerned about players getting injuried and being burned out for starters he should lobby for the return of carpet for the entire indoor season as a legitimate surface again since it's easier on the legs than HC and points are much shorter(less rallies,less running around etc.).

Also returning Wimbledon and USO to it's 90s speeds would be great as well since as I said shorter rallies and less running=less injuries.

Yeah, what was with the decision to no longer play on carpets? That was the best part about the fall indoor season.

sureshs
10-12-2009, 02:46 PM
I don't get an off-season from my work. If Nadal and Roddick don't want to play, maybe Soderling, Del Potro and Djokovic can step up. There are fans around the world who would love to see action in winter. I also can't see why they are afraid to lose. OK, you feel tired, you lose early and go away. The guy who is not feeling tired wins and moves on to the next round. Survival of the fittest. Or survival of the guy who happens to be feeling OK that day. Either way, fans get their tennis around the year.

JennyS
10-12-2009, 02:51 PM
Yeah, what was with the decision to no longer play on carpets? That was the best part about the fall indoor season.

Yeah, I don't get it. It went extinct along with astroturf in the NFL.

Expired
10-12-2009, 04:44 PM
Doesn't he practice 8 hours a day?? Maybe that would contribute to a short career?

FedSampras1
10-12-2009, 04:57 PM
I think a better idea is for Nadal to go play on the WTA tour.

and let the ladies scratch his ass:twisted:

World Beater
10-12-2009, 05:01 PM
in this age where tennis is as physical as ever, players complaining about the schedule cos their joints ache.

fedbeast has 21 consecutive semifinals.

LOL.

nfor304
10-12-2009, 07:46 PM
He's right, but its been said before.

The schedule has been a mess for years, even going back to the 70's when the Davis Cup final was played the day after christmas.

Agassifan
10-12-2009, 07:55 PM
I have a solution, lets erase some off the clay-court tournaments!! How about that! And extend the grasscourt-"season"...if 3-4 weeks deserves too be called a season.

This is acceptable. Too many clay court tournaments.

darrinbaker00
10-12-2009, 07:57 PM
I would love to sympathize with self-employed multimillionaires like Rafael Nadal. I really would. Pray for me. :evil:

8pNADAL
10-12-2009, 08:01 PM
should just change the rankings so grand slams carry most of the ranking points and also get rid of the silly fines imposed on players skipping masters events

obsessedtennisfandisorder
10-12-2009, 08:01 PM
He brings up good points, but it's unsurprising that the loudest outcry against the schedule is from the WORST scheduler in tennis history - he could have opted to skip Monte Carlo; he didn't. He could have skipped Beijing and Shanghai, like Roger and Murray, and risk whatever weak punishment the ATP wouldn't dare attack him with anyway; he didn't.

It is too long, but if scheduled correctly, one can effectively avoid burnout and avoid playing an absurd amount of matches. His point about playing the most or second most matches every year is ridiculously whiny; the other members top players have the same expectations on them, yet rarely do their number of matches come remotely close to his. Not just singles, but for whatever reason, he thinks it is a wise decision to play quite a few doubles matches every year, too: over twenty last year and over ten this year.


brilliant post

Can't stand ******, never have, never will...

Multiply your typical hatred for serena on these boards multiplied by three and you roughly have my opinion of him.

No-one is forcing nadal to play any tournamnets...comprehende?

Just don't play Indian wells or Miami if you end up feeling burnt out.

If you do...how about developing a game less taxing on the body..eg
a decent serve creating weak returns etc..that results in less body wear.

I'm starting to tkae drakulie's approach to anything nadal says.

for example...what was forcing him to play all those events in dubai start
of the year...and all three clay masters series? why play IW and Miami?

The season is fine..just change the ranking system a little...best 5 of9
masters-series results etc...and don't have to play all of them..

This is where at least...I can't stand the ATP either..pathetic $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$

obsessedtennisfandisorder
10-12-2009, 08:02 PM
For the record:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$

Tennis_Maestro
10-12-2009, 08:04 PM
Nadal, right? Please.

Mr play it safe, diplomatically correct Nadal.

He only says what people want to hear. This is what people want to hear.

Tennis_Maestro
10-12-2009, 08:05 PM
Or his fans, should i say, want to hear.

THUNDERVOLLEY
10-12-2009, 08:54 PM
Blake, Nadal, Safin, and Roddick are all on record in the past year saying the season is too long, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones that have those sentiments. Don't kill the messenger - don't attack Nadal for saying what everyone else believes and knows is true, the season is too long.

Agreed; i says much that any "fan" would argue against anything that would aid the player.

8pNADAL
10-12-2009, 08:59 PM
add to me last post: get rid of the silly ranking point penalties for skipping events too

Blinkism
10-12-2009, 09:17 PM
Whether Federer "complains" about the schedule or not, it clearly affects him.

First he dropped out of Dubai and Davis Cup earlier in the year, complained about his back and was glad that the hardcourt season was over, dropped out of Halle due to exhaustion, and then dropped out of Tokyo and Shanghai after the US Open due to fatigue.

Whether he says it or not, his actions indicate that the season is too long for him, also.

Same goes for other guys who don't say anything about the season, like Murray, who withdrew in Dubai, dropped out of Davis Cup earlier in the year, and skipped Tokyo and Shanghai due to "wrist injury"

Del Potro skipped Cincinnati after a very tiring HC season after Wimbledon

Nadal, Roddick, and others are only saying what others are making clear through their actions.

Baikalic
10-12-2009, 09:18 PM
I have a solution, lets erase some off the clay-court tournaments!! How about that! And extend the grasscourt-"season"...if 3-4 weeks deserves too be called a season.

3-4 weeks is definitely too short.
How many Clay tournies are there compared to HC tournies?

Baikalic
10-12-2009, 09:21 PM
brilliant post

Can't stand ******, never have, never will...

Multiply your typical hatred for serena on these boards multiplied by three and you roughly have my opinion of him.

No-one is forcing nadal to play any tournamnets...comprehende?

Just don't play Indian wells or Miami if you end up feeling burnt out.

If you do...how about developing a game less taxing on the body..eg
a decent serve creating weak returns etc..that results in less body wear.

I'm starting to tkae drakulie's approach to anything nadal says.

for example...what was forcing him to play all those events in dubai start
of the year...and all three clay masters series? why play IW and Miami?

The season is fine..just change the ranking system a little...best 5 of9
masters-series results etc...and don't have to play all of them..

This is where at least...I can't stand the ATP either..pathetic $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$

I doubt everyone here actually hates Serena. I really don't understand people who hate people they don't know in real life.

Be chill, be happy.

mandy01
10-12-2009, 09:23 PM
If Nadal is so concerned about players getting injuried and being burned out for starters he should lobby for the return of carpet for the entire indoor season as a legitimate surface again since it's easier on the legs than HC and points are much shorter(less rallies,less running around etc.).

Also returning Wimbledon and USO to it's 90s speeds would be great as well since as I said shorter rallies and less running=less injuries.I'm not sure how much success Nadal will have if the rallies are kept short..thats why he isnt complaining about grass.He complains about hard courts

vive le beau jeu !
10-13-2009, 05:04 AM
If Nadal is so concerned about players getting injuried and being burned out for starters he should lobby for the return of carpet for the entire indoor season as a legitimate surface again since it's easier on the legs than HC and points are much shorter(less rallies,less running around etc.).

Also returning Wimbledon and USO to it's 90s speeds would be great as well since as I said shorter rallies and less running=less injuries.
excellent points !

coloskier
10-13-2009, 10:10 AM
His comment is a beautiful self assessment about what has happened to his game. He can't play that kind of game for a full season without getting injured or mentally blown away.

TheTruth
10-13-2009, 06:49 PM
One compromise would be to stop putting him on the last day of the round all the time. Ever notice how he always has to play the second or third day resulting in a more compressed schedule? Odd, is what I think about it. He has a reason to complain considering they're always messing with his recovery time. Remember Wimbledon?

sureshs
10-14-2009, 04:41 AM
Del Potro and Roddick have both retired injured (right wrist and knee respectively). Nadal is always complaining. Federer does not even show up.

There seems to be no depth in the ATP. WTA is much better.

rommil
10-14-2009, 07:22 AM
One compromise would be to stop putting him on the last day of the round all the time. Ever notice how he always has to play the second or third day resulting in a more compressed schedule? Odd, is what I think about it. He has a reason to complain considering they're always messing with his recovery time. Remember Wimbledon?

Oh please. Nadal's stupid approach to his scheduling, his too much intensity on court, his lengthy practice times, his unneccessary movements on court, his STYLE OF PLAY. Nadal should look into things he can control first and make an adjustment. He is only 23 and he sounds like an ailing 33 year old veteran who is b!tching because he isn't winning. It doesn't help him that he is so vocal about the schedule then next thing you know he signs up for an exhibition. Wasn't Nadal the pro that was jetskiing, motorcycling, Aston Martining while the other players were battling at Wimbledon and didn't come back until the US hardcourt season? Oh yeah, he was "injured". Nadal is a great tennis player but sometimes he can just be a ******. After they do the coin toss in a match, he sprints zig zag to the baseline. WTF is that?

drakulie
10-14-2009, 07:30 AM
One compromise would be to stop putting him on the last day of the round all the time.

A better compromise would be for him to just shut the hell up already.

Cesc Fabregas
10-14-2009, 07:34 AM
A better compromise would be for him to just shut the hell up already.

Man your a troll. The grass has slowed down when Nadal wins Wimbledon but is fast when Federer wins his. Nadal is a whiner but when Federer swears at umpires and always moans about hawkeye you say nothing. YOU'RE A PATHETIC TROLL.

jamesblakefan#1
10-14-2009, 07:37 AM
Man your a troll. The grass has slowed down when Nadal wins Wimbledon but is fast when Federer wins his. Nadal is a whiner but when Federer swears at umpires and always moans about hawkeye you say nothing. YOU'RE A PATHETIC TROLL.

Correct. He is the only man that can get you and I to agree on something. Maybe we should send Drak over to solve the Israeli-Palestine conflict, or the Iranian nuclear situation. :lol:

drakulie
10-14-2009, 07:40 AM
Man your a troll.

really?? you think so?

sureshs
10-14-2009, 08:00 AM
Oh please. Nadal's stupid approach to his scheduling, his too much intensity on court, his lengthy practice times, his unneccessary movements on court, his STYLE OF PLAY. Nadal should look into things he can control first and make an adjustment. He is only 23 and he sounds like an ailing 33 year old veteran who is b!tching because he isn't winning. It doesn't help him that he is so vocal about the schedule then next thing you know he signs up for an exhibition. Wasn't Nadal the pro that was jetskiing, motorcycling, Aston Martining while the other players were battling at Wimbledon and didn't come back until the US hardcourt season? Oh yeah, he was "injured". Nadal is a great tennis player but sometimes he can just be a ******. After they do the coin toss in a match, he sprints zig zag to the baseline. WTF is that?

Why is Nadal playing? Part of the reason is money. He is playing Abu Dhabi next January, with Federer. Why? App fees. Nadal's strategy seems to be to play as many tourneys early on, including clay, where he racks up money by going deep, even if he is not winning. Then complain from September onwards. If I were him, I would also make money as fast and early as I can, because I wouldn't be sure of winning even if I was fit. These guys don't have steady incomes, or have retirement copays deposited into some fund, or their medical insurance taken care of. Make hay when the sun shines.

ksbh
10-14-2009, 08:06 AM
I don't care if Federer isn't complaining about the schedule. The man is a whiner, just like anybody else. He just doesn't whine about the schedule, that's all.

rommil
10-14-2009, 08:06 AM
Why is Nadal playing? Part of the reason is money. He is playing Abu Dhabi next January, with Federer. Why? App fees. Nadal's strategy seems to be to play as many tourneys early on, including clay, where he racks up money by going deep, even if he is not winning. Then complain from September onwards. If I were him, I would also make money as fast and early as I can, because I wouldn't be sure of winning even if I was fit. These guys don't have steady incomes, or have retirement copays deposited into some fund, or their medical insurance taken care of. Make hay when the sun shines.

Nobody is questioning why they are playing suresh. And as of this moment I am trying to find a way to contribute to Rafa's 401k. I didn't realize they have it that bad.LOL



Overheard at Rafa's meeting with his financial planner:

Planner; "Rafa when do you plan to retire?"

Nadal:"When I see Soderling, Cilic or del POtro on the draw,no?".

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:09 AM
Why is Nadal playing? Part of the reason is money. He is playing Abu Dhabi next January, with Federer. Why? App fees. Nadal's strategy seems to be to play as many tourneys early on, including clay, where he racks up money by going deep, even if he is not winning. Then complain from September onwards. If I were him, I would also make money as fast and early as I can, because I wouldn't be sure of winning even if I was fit. These guys don't have steady incomes, or have retirement copays deposited into some fund, or their medical insurance taken care of. Make hay when the sun shines.

So what your saying is that Nadal would play this much regardless of his requirements because he needs to make as much money as he can, and the complaining is just something he does......why?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I have no idea why he whines about this stuff. His actions don't follow his words. Last year in Paris he was complaining about all the tennis he was having to play and then he entered the doubles draw.......bizarre.

Federer doesn't complain about the schedule. When he doesn't want to play, he doesn't show up. It's not that complicated.

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:11 AM
I don't care if Federer isn't complaining about the schedule. The man is a whiner, just like anybody else. He just doesn't whine about the schedule, that's all.

Federer does his whining on court, Nadal does his in the media. Neither is better, just different.

yellowoctopus
10-14-2009, 08:11 AM
I'm having a difficult time gathering enough sympathy for these players, especially since majority of the world goes to work almost everyday just to be able to survive.

mandy01
10-14-2009, 08:14 AM
Federer does his whining on court, Nadal does his in the media. Neither is better, just different.
I still havent seen him whine more than once a year or so about the hawkeye if at all though.I understand his view point but he needs to get over it,thats for sure.

sureshs
10-14-2009, 08:15 AM
So what your saying is that Nadal would play this much regardless of his requirements because he needs to make as much money as he can, and the complaining is just something he does......why?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I have no idea why he whines about this stuff. His actions don't follow his words. Last year in Paris he was complaining about all the tennis he was having to play and then he entered the doubles draw.......bizarre.

Federer doesn't complain about the schedule. When he doesn't want to play, he doesn't show up. It's not that complicated.

It is actually quite complicated. The Shanghai organizers were secretely mad at Federer. He relied on the goodwill from previous years to buck them. It is also a balance. There was news that Federer's camp monitored Nadal before announcing their decision. If all the top players pull out, it is a problem. There is much wheeling and dealing that goes on behind the scenes, and also communication between players that we are not aware of.

ProfoundBasic
10-14-2009, 08:17 AM
People get tired of working the same thing after a while.

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:24 AM
I'm having a difficult time gathering enough sympathy for these players, especially since majority of the world goes to work almost everyday just to be able to survive.

For sure. It's hard to tell whether they're complaints are just, or if they are just prima donnas. You can't put yourself in their shoes, so you don't really know. What I do know is that I don't hear any of the journeymen complaining about the schedule. I'm sure the Vince Spadea's of the world would love to be playing Shanghai right now.

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:26 AM
It is actually quite complicated. The Shanghai organizers were secretely mad at Federer. He relied on the goodwill from previous years to buck them. It is also a balance. There was news that Federer's camp monitored Nadal before announcing their decision. If all the top players pull out, it is a problem. There is much wheeling and dealing that goes on behind the scenes, and also communication between players that we are not aware of.

I don't doubt everything you say is true. But if this is how so many players feel then they should hit the tour where it hurts and boycott.

ksbh
10-14-2009, 08:31 AM
Spot on , Ed! that was exactly my point.

Very objective & intelligent response but coming from you, it isn't a surprise! :)

Federer does his whining on court, Nadal does his in the media. Neither is better, just different.

sureshs
10-14-2009, 08:32 AM
I don't doubt everything you say is true. But if this is how so many players feel then they should hit the tour where it hurts and boycott.

Only the top players who go deep feel that way and have the guts to speak out. But if they boycott, other players may be willing to play for the money. Lots of them resent how much the top guys make, because the pay scale approximately doubles with each higher round. From the management side, the ATP and WTA must take into account the needs of global tournaments and the sponsors who want to be seen there. For example, a multinational company will not invest in tennis if its efforts are not visible in areas where it is trying to increase its presence. If it is trying to grow in China because North America is saturated with its products, it will demand a Chinese tournament. There is much more to this than some of the posters think in a naive way.

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:48 AM
Only the top players who go deep feel that way and have the guts to speak out. But if they boycott, other players may be willing to play for the money. Lots of them resent how much the top guys make, because the pay scale approximately doubles with each higher round. From the management side, the ATP and WTA must take into account the needs of global tournaments and the sponsors who want to be seen there. For example, a multinational company will not invest in tennis if its efforts are not visible in areas where it is trying to increase its presence. If it is trying to grow in China because North America is saturated with its products, it will demand a Chinese tournament. There is much more to this than some of the posters think in a naive way.

Things are always more complicated then they seem. But the fact is that many other sports have had player strikes before. I don't know what the organization level is with the top pros, but I gotta think that even if just the top 10 started boycotting events that would have a huge impact on the marketing powers that you speak of.

Nadal and others have been doin a lot of talkin and not a lot of walkin. Do they think there is going to be change if they keep showing up and playing these events?

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Spot on , Ed! that was exactly my point.

Very objective & intelligent response but coming from you, it isn't a surprise! :)

Hey thanks man. Right back at ya.

TensProfes
10-14-2009, 09:02 AM
I don't doubt everything you say is true. But if this is how so many players feel then they should hit the tour where it hurts and boycott.

The reason they won't boycott is the same reason that this problem hasn't been "fixed", despite the fact that it's been discussed for decades. The problem is that while the top few players want the schedule shortened, the rest of them don't. Anyone trying to improve his ranking or bank account wants more opportunities to do so, and shortening the schedule takes away opportunity. Further, the lower ranked guys aren't as beaten down by the schedule because they are playing 1-3 matches a week, rather than 5-6 (so they are playing less than half as much tennis!). At that rate, the lower ranked guys are getting less abuse on the match court than they are on the practice court, and can control their own rate of burnout if they want to.

There are a few things that need to be understood in order to have an intelligent conversation about this issue:

- It's pretty silly to try to differentiate between the attitudes of Nadal and Federer (or any other top player previously mentioned) simply because someone is a fan of one or the other. It's even sillier to use this thread for that purpose, when it's not the subject at hand. The division isn't between the attitudes of Nadal, Fed, Murray, Djokovic, etc. on the subject. They all feel the same way. The division is between ALL of the top guys, and those ranked low enough that they need/want more tournaments.

- The further issues at hand relate to the fact that tournaments are businesses. Think of each event as a company rather than an event, since that's essentially what they are. They are independently owned and operated for the most part. Since there are only so many calendar spots in the year, removing a tournament is like asking a company to close down just so that other people can make more money, and so that other companies' workers can be less tired. Sounds crazy, no? So, as long as there are tournament directors on the ATP board, it'll never happen in any significant way. Maybe a week here or there, but no major changes.

- The recently renewed press attention to the calendar relates to the very reasonable complaint that the ATP calendar this year has been made even longer (by two weeks) than last year's even though many have requested an effort to make it shorter if possible. It's an argument not about the many weeks of grind, but about managing the very controllable one or two weeks at the beginning and end of the calendar. In effect, they're talking about the way that the "offseason" can be either doubled or halved simply by adjusting things a couple of weeks at one end or the other. That's what Roddick's recent comments related to. Here's the problem: While Nadal and others have complained about the season becoming a week longer, several top players (including Nadal) have VOLUNTARILY shortened that very same offseason even further by electing to play an exhibition tournament a week before the required events start. So naturally, the complaints fall on deaf ears, as they appear to be totally disingenuous. Hard to argue with that. If they were so desperate for time off, why the hell are they playing Abu Dhabi????? We know the answer to that one. And if that's the case, isn't it reasonable for us to assume that the same players probably wouldn't be resting in the offseason even if they had it. So why bother?

- Lastly, the big elephant in the room is the Australian Open. The tournaments at the beginning of the year wouldn't matter at all to the top guys if they weren't warmups for the Autralian Open. They could skip them all (or most of them) without much negative consequence and extend the offseason nicely, if they could just move the Aussie Open later by as much as a couple of months. The whole calendar would make much more sense for the tour, and the Grand Slams would be more cohesive if the Australian Open were in late March or early April. The pressure would be taken off the ends of the season and concentrated in the middle, and many would be happy. However, because the Australian Open is played in...well, Australia....a new set of problems are posed. The current timing in January puts the tournament right in the middle of Australia's summer break. That means many more people get to see it, and the tournament makes MUCH more money that it would otherwise. Much of the recent success of the Aussie Open is due to its summer break timing. Moving it even two weeks later, let alone two months, means that they'd lose tons of money, attendance, fans, following, etc. So there's little chance of the big problem in the calendar being solved. Further, putting the tournament in March or April would take it out of summer and put it in the fall, when Melbourne is much colder and rainier. A non-starter.

So now that the real issues are on the table, feel free to discuss. I think you'll find there isn't a real solution, and the problems aren't what most think they are.

mandy01
10-14-2009, 10:14 AM
^wow..probably the best post I've seen on this topic so far :shock:

drakulie
10-14-2009, 10:17 AM
Reason why the scheudle won't be shortened is because all the lower level players outside say the top 40, won't be able to make a living so the tour will be about a thousand players short.

In essence, you'll have 25-40 guys playing all the events, with many of the events allowing locals to play in the tourneys>>> like they did in the days of Laver.

TheMusicLover
10-14-2009, 10:21 AM
^wow..probably the best post I've seen on this topic so far :shock:

+1. EXCELLENT post, quite much sums it all up. :-o
Now only the ones offering a solution to the problem should be allowed to further post in this thread eh. :)

ksbh
10-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Good point. I'm willing to offer a solution, so if you will-

First, current players should not fall for greed by agreeing to play these crap exhibitions against retired former greats. I don't see any reason other than money why current pros should play Sampras in these meaningless matches.

Second, don't play any exhibition match against current or former players, period. If the lure of money is too great, don't bi*tch about a long season!

Third, if you really have to play to meet the ATP requirements and the ATP won't mend its ways, tank!

+1. EXCELLENT post, quite much sums it all up. :-o
Now only the ones offering a solution to the problem should be allowed to further post in this thread eh. :)

crazylevity
10-14-2009, 10:50 AM
As highlighted by the post above, the problem is a complex and multi-faceted one. I like to think of Roger's approach as one of the better ones: accept that the tour can't be changed to fit everyone's needs/wants. Tailor your own schedule to suit your own needs. Players at the top have that luxury. All that rubbish about mandatory tournaments and what not...there is a way around those issues and has been for a long time.

edmondsm
10-14-2009, 10:52 AM
The reason they won't boycott is the same reason that this problem hasn't been "fixed", despite the fact that it's been discussed for decades. The problem is that while the top few players want the schedule shortened, the rest of them don't. Anyone trying to improve his ranking or bank account wants more opportunities to do so, and shortening the schedule takes away opportunity. Further, the lower ranked guys aren't as beaten down by the schedule because they are playing 1-3 matches a week, rather than 5-6 (so they are playing less than half as much tennis!). At that rate, the lower ranked guys are getting less abuse on the match court than they are on the practice court, and can control their own rate of burnout if they want to.

There are a few things that need to be understood in order to have an intelligent conversation about this issue:

- It's pretty silly to try to differentiate between the attitudes of Nadal and Federer (or any other top player previously mentioned) simply because someone is a fan of one or the other. It's even sillier to use this thread for that purpose, when it's not the subject at hand. The division isn't between the attitudes of Nadal, Fed, Murray, Djokovic, etc. on the subject. They all feel the same way. The division is between ALL of the top guys, and those ranked low enough that they need/want more tournaments.

So if the top players are that unified on this subject then why is there no action from them? Certainly these tournaments/companies stand to lose a lot of money, maybe all of their money if the top players don't show up. The real power lays in the hands of guys like Federer, Nadal, etc. They can significantly effect the marketing power of the tournament directors and the ATP as a whole, and what can the ATP do to them? Ban them from the tour? Fine them?

You're painting of the situation makes it sound like tennis is incredibly different from a sporting league like MLB. When it really isn't. Think of a team like the Yankees. The Yankees finance their own expendatures like players salaries, stadium construction, etc., just like a tournament on the tennis tour.

When the Players Association in the MLB wasn't happy, they went on strike. What happened as a result? The MLB brought in minor league players to continue the season. You see, it's the same basic concept as in tennis. Sure there are lower level players that are more then happy to play these events, but are people going to watch? No. So in the end the superstars that go on strike get what they want, because the league needs them more then they need the league.

crazylevity
10-14-2009, 10:55 AM
[Delete post]

TensProfes
10-14-2009, 06:53 PM
So if the top players are that unified on this subject then why is there no action from them? Certainly these tournaments/companies stand to lose a lot of money, maybe all of their money if the top players don't show up. The real power lays in the hands of guys like Federer, Nadal, etc. They can significantly effect the marketing power of the tournament directors and the ATP as a whole, and what can the ATP do to them? Ban them from the tour? Fine them?

You're painting of the situation makes it sound like tennis is incredibly different from a sporting league like MLB. When it really isn't. Think of a team like the Yankees. The Yankees finance their own expendatures like players salaries, stadium construction, etc., just like a tournament on the tennis tour.

When the Players Association in the MLB wasn't happy, they went on strike. What happened as a result? The MLB brought in minor league players to continue the season. You see, it's the same basic concept as in tennis. Sure there are lower level players that are more then happy to play these events, but are people going to watch? No. So in the end the superstars that go on strike get what they want, because the league needs them more then they need the league.

As stated, the reason there is no action from the players is because the majority don't want to shorten the calendar. Even though the top few players are most visible and influential, any democratic process involving the players voting would result in the status quo. And more to the point, even the top guys don't really want to shorten it much. Some say they do, but their actions don't support that. So in the end, the top players are not that unified on the subject. But the lower ranked ones are, and they're all against shortening.

The situation is totally different from baseball (or any professional team sports league) in many many ways. The first and most important is that sports leagues are unilateral entities, and control their own interests. Meanwhile, the ATP calendar is really a collection of individual events. The ATP organization doesn't own any of its own regular season events and has no real control over them ultimately. MLB by contrast is a self contained single entity with a hired board, a commissioner and complete control over their own proceedings. Pro tennis is more a series of dozens of agreements between independent parties. The ATP sanctions its events but doesn't legally control them outright to the degree that sports leagues control their games.

A few other differences to consider are that when a player signs with an MLB team, the team makes most of the decisions for them, and their contract stipulates that they play an existing schedule. The players don't get to protest having too many games in the year or what time of day they play. They don't get to determine which games they feel like playing. They don't get to determine which teams they play. Their team acts on their behalf. The players have very few individual rights in terms of the game's organization. They're more like actors in a show or employees of a company. And for the most part, they get paid the same salary regardless of their results (performance bonuses aside). Tennis players are more like independent contractors and are paid based on how much they play and how much they win. Further, the Yankees are part of a league. If the entire team decides they don't like their schedule or how the league runs its playoffs, etc., guess what they can do about it? Almost nothing. The fact that league players can strike has nothing to do with those issues. It's simply a matter of money.

Which brings us to the strike analogy. It doesn't work. For two reasons:

1. There is no organization of players or a "union" in tennis. There used to be, but the ATP became an organization that included the very tournament owners who don't want to give up or move their events. In fact, there are as many tournament reps as player reps on the ATP board. And the sport's executives care much more about the tournaments' and sponsors' opinions than those of the players because they're the ones paying for everything, and the sports desperately needs them to be happy. Even if the players are a bit disgruntled, they'll still play. They may whine a bit, but they'll show up.

2. Even if there were a player's union, they'd vote roughly 1,468 to 32 against getting rid of events. The only way it would be otherwise is if there was a separate union for top 20 or top 32 players (which is obviously impossible, and its membership would change every week anyway). And even those guys would just as soon have a change to the ranking system as an actual shortened calendar

In the end, the problem is one of supply and demand. Most of the tour's players don't want a shorter schedule. The fans don't want a shorter schedule. The tournament owners don't want a shorter schedule. And the ATP management doesn't want a shorter schedule. That leaves only 25 or so people in the world who actually want a shorter schedule. And even those 25 guys who might want a shorter schedule don't make much of a case for it. Certainly the Davydenkos, Verdascos, Robredos and Simons, who always play as many events as possible, aren't going to campaign too hard for a shortened schedule. In fact, Davydenko recently said publicly that he plays as much as possible to support his wife's shopping habit.:) And despite protestations this week, Djokovic's actions totally bely his interests. He has played the most matches on tour (79) this year, almost 20% more than the next hightest total! And the reason he has so many more matches then anyone else is that he plays tons of events that aren't required and don't even help his ranking. Doesn't sound like a guy who is trying to play less, does it? It's most likely that if they gave the top players the option of a shortened schedule with a stipulation that the players not be allowed to go to exhibitions during the off weeks, support would die almost completely. In the end money trumps rest every time, whether it's in the form of prize money, appearance fees or exhibition cash.

Chopin
10-14-2009, 06:57 PM
Outstanding posting all.

I would not be where I am today on the boards without your contributions to my threads.

Kind regards,
Chopin

heftylefty
10-14-2009, 07:04 PM
If the top players keep playing expos for top dollar, they don't reason to complain. I am curious how many expos did Roddick and Nadal have paid this year.

Rataplan
10-15-2009, 01:44 AM
^^ Nadal knows well that the tour will suffer if the ATP gives in to his convenience.Sure,Nadal is not the only one to complain about the tour.But then again,the guy dosent complain he literally whines all the time (and mostly when he loses.) .He'd do better to come up with a reasonable solution
Beats whining about a player on a forum as much as you do. Give it a rest.

harrpau7
10-15-2009, 02:17 AM
I think that the clay court season needs shortening - 3 Masters on clay is overkill, then the French Open could be brought forward 2 weeks, start in the week that Madrid starts. Then have a two week gap where the French Open used to be, a mid season break then start the grass court season.

The other change I would make is simply bring the Rogers Cup forward a week, so it isn't back to back with Cincy.

The only other solution IMO would be to re-structure the calendar around the big tournaments (Slams, Masters 1000 and Masters Cup) and then have a two year calendar for the 500's and 250's, so that the tournaments are not completely eliminated, but instead of having say 10 ATP 500's a year (not sure of actual number), they are split into two groups of 5, one group played in one year, the other group played in the other year. It's unfair to completely get rid of a tournament, but this is a compromise.

Max G.
10-15-2009, 09:42 AM
If the top players keep playing expos for top dollar, they don't reason to complain. I am curious how many expos did Roddick and Nadal have paid this year.

Are expos really any more tiring than the day of practice they'd have anyway? You show up and play. Is it really the same as a real match that you prepare for and really push yourself in?

P_Agony
10-15-2009, 10:08 AM
I somewhat agree with Nadal and Roddick and the others, but the only question I have for Nadal - why did he start complaining about it in late 2008? What about 2005, 2006, 2007? Don't get me wrong, when Federer complained about it after Cincy 2006, it was a very weird timing as well. I'm not saying their claims aren't right, I clearly agree, I just think making those claims when you aren't having great success in recent tourneys is very comfortable.