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New Daddy
10-14-2009, 02:12 PM
Why is remaining sideways throughout swing important for 1HBH?
How does that creed square with some pros known to have excellent 1HBH - Wawrinka, for example - who seem to open up their torso at or right after impact?

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 02:29 PM
The body rotation used for the 1-hander is considerably less than for the FH or the 2-hander. This is because the back arm & shoulder is not attached to the racquet, so the back shoulder does not really need to come around in order to swing and follow-thru.

The kinetic chain for the 1-hander is quite a bit different than the "back shoulder" groundstrokes. There is some leg drive and body rotation early on in the kinetic chain sequence. However, as the forward swing commences, the torso suddenly stops. This provides a complete power transfer from the body rotation to the arm and racquet. For other types of groundstrokes, the transfer is not complete since the body continues to rotate during the forward swing & follow-thru.

LeeD
10-14-2009, 02:39 PM
Maybe staying sideways more important in conti and eastern backhands, just like conti and eastern FOREHANDS.
Once you start to head over towards full SW and W (very few use W's), possibly less important to stay sideways and closed stances.
Sideways was always good for longer strike zone, so you can control the depth (by height) with more control.

35ft6
10-14-2009, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I don't see the need for remaining sideways. Maybe if you're hitting down the line but guys really open up their shoulders on cross court shots.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 03:10 PM
Yeah, I don't see the need for remaining sideways. Maybe if you're hitting down the line but guys really open up their shoulders on cross court shots.

The torso will often open up a bit on x-court shots. However, I've seen Federer hit many (not all) of his x-court shots without opening up his shoulder very much at all. Many times the back shoulder will come around after contact as the player goes back to their ready position to prepare for the next shot. Still there is a lot less torso rotation for most 1-handed BH shots than with other g'strokes.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 03:10 PM
TennisClip.com/media/129/Roger_Federer__Slow_Motion__Backhand__Topspin (http://www.tennisclip.com/media/129/Roger_Federer__Slow_Motion__Backhand__Topspin/)
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xFullCourtTenniSx
10-14-2009, 03:18 PM
The more shoulder rotation you get, the more power and disguise you get.

Now, as for why remain sideways, it's so you can solidly hit through the ball (more power) and brush up it properly without creating sidespin (more consistency, spin, and control). It also gives you the greatest reach.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 03:24 PM
The more shoulder rotation you get, the more power and disguise you get...

Up to a point. Yes, you should coil up on the preparation so that the back of the front shoulder is to the net. The uncoiling shoulder rotation should happen early in the forward stroke. If the rotation continues thru contact, the power transfer is diminished.

aimr75
10-14-2009, 03:36 PM
SystemicAnomaly, nice explanation

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-14-2009, 03:44 PM
Now, as for why remain sideways, it's so you can solidly hit through the ball (more power) and brush up it properly without creating sidespin (more consistency, spin, and control). It also gives you the greatest reach.

Up to a point. Yes, you should coil up on the preparation so that the back of the front shoulder is to the net. The uncoiling shoulder rotation should happen early in the forward stroke. If the rotation continues thru contact, the power transfer is diminished.

Didn't I already say that?

You should show your back to your opponent on your takeback. That is the best general measurement of how much rotation you should get. Easier to understand and say than "the back of the front shoulder is to the net." :/ Not only that, they might not get as much rotation as if you told them to show their back to their opponent (or net). Yes some rotation into the forward swing is going to happen, but blah blah blah, it's been covered. :/

Nellie
10-14-2009, 07:49 PM
I also think it is about contact point/swing path - if you are open (with a one handed backhand) you will hit across and not through the ball. Just try it sometime.

In contrast, the open two-hander use the backside arm to push through the ball, even with an open stance.

Djokovicfan4life
10-14-2009, 07:59 PM
I also think it is about contact point/swing path - if you are open (with a one handed backhand) you will hit across and not through the ball. Just try it sometime.

In contrast, the open two-hander use the backside arm to push through the ball, even with an open stance.

Yeah, I've noticed that with beginners who try the 1HBH. They swing straight across their body and impart only side spin.

SystemicAnomaly
10-14-2009, 11:05 PM
Didn't I already say that?

You should show your back to your opponent on your takeback. That is the best general measurement of how much rotation you should get. Easier to understand and say than "the back of the front shoulder is to the net." :/ Not only that, they might not get as much rotation as if you told them to show their back to their opponent (or net). Yes some rotation into the forward swing is going to happen, but blah blah blah, it's been covered. :/

No, it wasn't really clear. When you said "the more shoulder rotation you get...". The way it read, I assumed that you were talking about rotation into the shot. Couldn't really tell if you were talking about coiling or uncoiling when you mentioned shoulder rotation.

xFullCourtTenniSx
10-14-2009, 11:46 PM
No, it wasn't really clear. When you said "the more shoulder rotation you get...". The way it read, I assumed that you were talking about rotation into the shot. Couldn't really tell if you were talking about coiling or uncoiling when you mentioned shoulder rotation.

Shouldn't you know I'm a one hander by now? :)

It's the shot that, although weaker than my forehand, is reliable to me on good and bad days.

spacediver
10-14-2009, 11:54 PM
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The kinetic chain for the 1-hander is quite a bit different than the "back shoulder" groundstrokes. There is some leg drive and body rotation early on in the kinetic chain sequence. However, as the forward swing commences, the torso suddenly stops. This provides a complete power transfer from the body rotation to the arm and racquet. For other types of groundstrokes, the transfer is not complete since the body continues to rotate during the forward swing & follow-thru.

thanks for this nugget of insight. I guess that this also means that due to the arm absorbing the bulk of the momentum one also needs strong wrist stabilizers in the forearm muscles, especially considering that the stabilizers in question are primarily the wrist extensors which are weaker than the flexors that are used in forehands and serves.

volusiano
10-15-2009, 01:03 AM
thanks for this nugget of insight. I guess that this also means that due to the arm absorbing the bulk of the momentum one also needs strong wrist stabilizers in the forearm muscles, especially considering that the stabilizers in question are primarily the wrist extensors which are weaker than the flexors that are used in forehands and serves.

Are you talking about wearing some kind of "wrist stabilizer" device here??? Or are you just saying "don't be too wristy" on the 1hbh?

spacediver
10-15-2009, 01:11 AM
I mean that one needs more powerful forearms to keep the wrist from flexing during the stroke.

spacediver
10-15-2009, 01:14 AM
see the top of this image - you need strong extensors.

http://www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/elbow/elbow_anatomy/elbow_anatomy07c.jpg

New Daddy
10-15-2009, 04:42 AM
I also think it is about contact point/swing path - if you are open (with a one handed backhand) you will hit across and not through the ball. Just try it sometime.

In contrast, the open two-hander use the backside arm to push through the ball, even with an open stance.

Is it about contact point/swing path?
Then how does opening up your body when hitting forehand still let you hit through the ball and not across the ball?

5263
10-15-2009, 07:16 AM
Is it about contact point/swing path?
Then how does opening up your body when hitting forehand still let you hit through the ball and not across the ball?

Up and across the ball is a good thing which it does allows you to do.

drakulie
10-15-2009, 07:24 AM
Is it about contact point/swing path?
Then how does opening up your body when hitting forehand still let you hit through the ball and not across the ball?

Because in the FH you arm is behind your body, on the BH, your arm is in front of your body.

So, on the FH, you have to open up, in order to get your body out of the way to let your arm come thru. This is not the case with the BH.

drakulie
10-15-2009, 07:30 AM
Federer backhands in slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQpBaCnVYbE

As you could see, there is slight opening of the right shoulder. ON the higher ball, he stayed more closed.

5263
10-15-2009, 08:11 AM
Why remaining sideways throughout swing important for 1HBH?
How does that creed square with some pros known to have excellent 1HBH - Wawrinka, for example - who seem to open up their torso at or right after impact?

It's more important if you hit a traditional one hander, but there are techniques for hitting the 1 hander that open the shoulders more.

KFactor27
10-16-2009, 10:30 PM
Fed actually opens up on his backhand alittle more than people think. When he adjusts to a tiny bit more of an extreme grip and needs more net clearance he'll really open up to get more spin. Wawrinka has an extreme grip and hits his backhands extremely open..sometimes to the point where his chest is pointed at the net. Personally for me the more open the better!..but it really depends on grip preference and swing style.

here's a vid of Fed and Wawrinka playing a practice point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M5IeTDDhqY

aimr75
10-16-2009, 10:42 PM
Fed actually opens up on his backhand alittle more than people think. When he adjusts to a tiny bit more of an extreme grip and needs more net clearance he'll really open up to get more spin. Wawrinka has an extreme grip and hits his backhands extremely open..sometimes to the point where his chest is pointed at the net. Personally for me the more open the better!..but it really depends on grip preference and swing style.

here's a vid of Fed and Wawrinka playing a practice point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M5IeTDDhqY

great vid!

heretoserve
10-17-2009, 01:23 AM
SA you win the prize for being the least incorrect. You were right on till you said that there is less rotation with the Backhand. The hitting shoulder being in front IS why the body is more sideways at contact than the forehand. But only at contact. SA also made a good comment about the next to last link(the upper body) stopping before contact and working as a reactive break to release the last link (the arm) into the shot. After contact many players momentum CAN carry them open. But players looking to get to the net more won't let that happen. My SA please tell us where you got your great info from as i doubt you spend all your resources researching.

SystemicAnomaly
10-17-2009, 09:42 AM
SA you win the prize for being the least incorrect. You were right on till you said that there is less rotation with the Backhand. The hitting shoulder being in front IS why the body is more sideways at contact than the forehand. But only at contact. SA also made a good comment about the next to last link(the upper body) stopping before contact and working as a reactive break to release the last link (the arm) into the shot. After contact many players momentum CAN carry them open. But players looking to get to the net more won't let that happen...

Actually, there is considerably less rotation, uncoiling, with the 1-handed BH than with the FH or the 2-hander. In these other strokes, the torso rotates on the forward swing 90 degrees or more. For the 1-hander, it is less than half of this. The body does coil up quite a bit so that the back of the front shoulder is towards the net.

As the player is about to commence the forward swing, the body uncoils. It is still rotating a bit as the forward swing starts, but then it abruptly stops rotating. On most 1-handed shots, the back shoulder stops moving tho' the front shoulder might continue to move at contact & during the follow-thru. There are some 1-handed BH shots where some additional rotation occurs (as some have previously noted). However, when the back shoulder does come around on shots after the contact, it us usually in preparation for the ready position and the next shot. It is usually not part of the 1-handed mechanics after the early part of the forward swing.

If you allow the back shoulder & torso to move too early in the follow-thru, then you are probably getting some torso rotation at contact as well -- much of what we see during the follow-thru has it s roots earlier -- at contact or even a bit earlier than contact.


... My SA please tell us where you got your great info from as i doubt you spend all your resources researching.

Prologue: Have been a student of the game for more than 35 yrs. I started analyzing the game, in earnest, when I started teaching friends and (tennis) classmates in the early 80s. I started doing a lot more tennis research from various sources since the mid-90s when I resumed teaching again.
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heretoserve
10-18-2009, 04:32 AM
As I said you would have to show me some data. I think looking at high speed vid you will see 1 handers coiling more and being more sideways at contact, and 2 handers coiling less and being more open at contact(basically coiling the same). Having your hands away from each other allows that extra coil since the shoulders are away from each other and more open. Any ways, great to hear you have learned everything on your own. Great job! Any idols or mentors?

SystemicAnomaly
10-18-2009, 11:36 AM
As I said you would have to show me some data. I think looking at high speed vid you will see 1 handers coiling more and being more sideways at contact, and 2 handers coiling less and being more open at contact(basically coiling the same). Having your hands away from each other allows that extra coil since the shoulders are away from each other and more open. Any ways, great to hear you have learned everything on your own. Great job! Any idols or mentors?

I believe that we are in agreement on that. When I stated that there is less rotation for the 1-hander, I was speaking specifically about uncoiling, not the coiling action.

defrule
10-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I open up a lot when I really spank the ball.