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View Full Version : Thanks ATP, for screwing up the indoors season!


jamesblakefan#1
10-14-2009, 01:48 PM
It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

Blinkism
10-14-2009, 01:52 PM
Well, after Shanghai there's still Stockholm, the 2 Russian indoor tournaments, Vienna - they're all 250's, but they all lead into Valencia and Basel - 500's and then we have Paris, an indoor Master's and the season ends in the indoor Master's Cup

So, it all kind of builds up after Shanghai..

And there's even the 3 indoor tourneys before Shanghai.

The indoor season's not what it used to be, though, I agree JBF.

There's not too much space after the USO for more tournaments so what they have to do is convert Beijing and Tokyo into indoors along with Shanghai and maybe even turn the Bucharest 250 into an indoor tournament

Also, we need to get carpets back!!

Turn Paris back into carpets, and also turn the 2 Russian tournaments (Moscow + St.Petersburg) back into carpets, I say!

jamesblakefan#1
10-14-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm just really ticked. I'm ok with moving Madrid to clay, but I don't see why they didn't just keep Shanghai as an indoor event at the place the TMC was held.

ubermeyer
10-14-2009, 01:57 PM
i want carpet back too...

they hate ivo karlovic

but they love nadal

President of Serve/Volley
10-14-2009, 02:13 PM
i want carpet back too...

they hate ivo karlovic

but they love nadal


Karlovic would be The Man on Caperts. I guess they want to see more baseline power from Nadal rather than S/V of Karlovic.

SerbWhoLovesDelPo
10-14-2009, 02:20 PM
That's a general trend. Indoor carpet turning into outdoor HC.

roundiesee
10-14-2009, 02:51 PM
jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

P_Agony
10-14-2009, 02:55 PM
You're spot on JBF, the indoor season is my favorite alongside the north american HC season, and it's sad to see it destroyed. I guess there's always Basel to look forward too...:-(

P_Agony
10-14-2009, 02:56 PM
jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

Plus, MS finals used to be best of 5 sets. That's gone too.

JennyS
10-14-2009, 02:58 PM
Why did they get rid of carpet? Isn't it much easier on the body that hardcourts? And it's not like it's an expensive surface like grass!

JennyS
10-14-2009, 03:06 PM
jamesblakefan, you're not the only one who's upset; remember how they decided to throw out Hamburg? One of the oldest tournaments in tennis history? These days they're only concerned about ratings and their top players; it's not really about the great game of tennis itself, and how to be fair to all players. I also do not like the idea of all top players getting a first round bye; I thought all players used to play all the rounds regardless of their seeding. Pro tennis is changing and it's not for the better.

At this rate, the Australian Open will move to Beijing or Shanghai, Barcelona will replace Rome as a Masters Series event, and the European tournaments after Wimbledon will all be on hardcourts!

nfor304
10-14-2009, 04:59 PM
I for one would like to see either Indian wells or Miami move to Asia and have it played before the Aus Open, which would have to be pushed back.

4 outdoor hardcourt Masters series events in North America seems a bit much

JankovicFan
10-15-2009, 03:41 AM
I believe Shanghai changed because it upgraded to a Masters 1000 event and needed the number of courts and spectator accommodations to support the 56 draw within a week's schedule. The indoor hard courts were only supporting a championship series among 8 players (former Masters Cup, now scheduled for London).

It is the same reason events don't get combined, men and women, until the facilities can accommodate it. Really it all hinges on the amount of prize money available, whether a date is open, and whether there are lead in or following events that justify travelling to the region. Effectively, it ends a hard court season rather than starts an indoor season.

The schedule really just follows the weather around the world, so that all the larger events are held outdoors. That really only applies to large "hard courts", because grass and clay are outdoors and weather dependent by definition.

I don't see any point in making more of indoor events on mats, because the players apparently don't like that surface and drop out or tank to avoid it. Paris can be kind of sad.

This year's Shanghai was kind of a sample of how big events disappoint, when a number of the top players fall out. It becomes Djokovic season.

dropshot winner
10-15-2009, 03:45 AM
The surface in shanghai is a disgrace, they went from medium slow, low bouncing hardcourt to ultra slow and high bouncing hardcourt.

Cincinatti and US Open are the only big tournaments left that still have a fast surface.
Does anyone know what kind of hardcourt is used at the WTF?

Ventolin
10-15-2009, 04:44 AM
I think the issue of surfaces is more pressing than the whole indoor/outdoor thing.

The only reason the indoor events are indoor at all is because of the weather at that time of year in those countries

Blade0324
10-15-2009, 05:50 AM
Well I for one am glad to see the indoor events slowly disappearing. I am not a fan of indoor tennis and even less of a fan of carpet. The more the surfaces are made neutral the more there is an even playing field, so to speak, for everyone.
I have a coach that is a former ATP player and we have discussed surfaces quite a bit. He said that most players dislike playing indoors and most dislike carpet. However he has told me, to my surprise that many players would like to see something like HarTru green clay if the tourneys have to be played indoors and possibly even outdoors.
I would say that the reason we are seeing carpet gone and indoor disappearing is because the it's what most of the players want.

dropshot winner
10-15-2009, 05:58 AM
Well I for one am glad to see the indoor events slowly disappearing. I am not a fan of indoor tennis and even less of a fan of carpet. The more the surfaces are made neutral the more there is an even playing field, so to speak, for everyone.
I have a coach that is a former ATP player and we have discussed surfaces quite a bit. He said that most players dislike playing indoors and most dislike carpet. However he has told me, to my surprise that many players would like to see something like HarTru green clay if the tourneys have to be played indoors and possibly even outdoors.
I would say that the reason we are seeing carpet gone and indoor disappearing is because the it's what most of the players want.
I agree about carpet, that surface is dead for a reason, there's nothing worse for the ankles and knees.

I disagree about the rest. How is a ATP-calendar with only slow surfaces "even"?
AO, IW and Miami (the three biggest tournament at the begin of the year) are already slow, after that you've many slow tournaments on clay, then you play on the slowed down grass on Wimbledon, followed by the two only fast surfaces (Cincy and US Open), and then you want some more slow surfaces to make it "even"?

Why not play on clay all year long and change the color of it? It wouldn't make much difference.

Rob_C
10-15-2009, 08:58 AM
The reason the ATP gave for eliminating carpet was that switching between surfaces caused more injuries to the players.

srinrajesh
10-15-2009, 10:18 AM
I agree about carpet, that surface is dead for a reason, there's nothing worse for the ankles and knees.

I disagree about the rest. How is a ATP-calendar with only slow surfaces "even"?
AO, IW and Miami (the three biggest tournament at the begin of the year) are already slow, after that you've many slow tournaments on clay, then you play on the slowed down grass on Wimbledon, followed by the two only fast surfaces (Cincy and US Open), and then you want some more slow surfaces to make it "even"?

Why not play on clay all year long and change the color of it? It wouldn't make much difference.

I think part of the indoor season could definitely be played on indoor clay which could be made quite fast and would also be better for the knees and ankle. Hamburg is one of the faster clay courts and Federer has won it 4 times..

dropshot winner
10-15-2009, 10:54 AM
I think part of the indoor season could definitely be played on indoor clay which could be made quite fast and would also be better for the knees and ankle. Hamburg is one of the faster clay courts and Federer has won it 4 times..

I like the idea of an indoor fast clay event at the expense of a slow hardcourt tournament.

What the ATP tour also needs are two big indoor events with a fast hardcourt surface. In such a tournament the points would be shorter and as a result the matches would be less physical.

Hamburg is one of the slowest clay tournaments, a indoor clay event should use a much faster surface.

coloskier
10-15-2009, 11:08 AM
Personally, I think they ought to make all the courts faster to prevent injuries. The longer you have to stay in the point, the greater the chance of injury. Then you wouldn't have all the whining about the long schedule because the points AND matches would be over a lot quicker and there would not be near as much wear and tear on the body. That is why there weren't near as many injuries in the 80's and early 90's. But, of course, the clay court specialists would have an embolism if they did that.

Cyan
10-15-2009, 11:32 AM
There should be tournaments played on wood.

Blinkism
10-15-2009, 11:37 AM
There should be tournaments played on wood.

LOL, stuck in the 60's and 70's much?

Those days are over. Can't remember why they stopped.

Something about twisted ankles and broken hips, I think.

:)

ksbh
10-15-2009, 11:43 AM
JBF ... I have to agree with you. The ATP should rename themselves ACP ... association of clueless professionals.

This bunch of jokers is destroying my beloved sport! Very sad!

It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

Cyan
10-15-2009, 11:44 AM
LOL, stuck in the 60's and 70's much?

Those days are over. Can't remember why they stopped.

Something about twisted ankles and broken hips, I think.

:)

LOL. I wasn't even alive back then. I just wonder what it would look like. Rafa wouldn't like it though ...

Blade0324
10-15-2009, 11:47 AM
The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.

Ledigs
10-15-2009, 01:19 PM
The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.

Slow courts not a good thing if you want to keep points shorter to keep injuries to a minimum. 4 hour matches are bad on the body!

Blade0324
10-15-2009, 01:33 PM
Slow courts not a good thing if you want to keep points shorter to keep injuries to a minimum. 4 hour matches are bad on the body!

Not necessarily. Tiring yes but bad on the body is not an absolute. I have played plenty of really long matches and I'm not in as good of shape as these top teir athletes. Just becuase you get tired does not mean you get hurt.

timnz
10-15-2009, 03:56 PM
They remove the indoor carpet events - and replace them with slower court events. The players whose game suits slower court become prominent. Those players are interviewed - do you like indoor carpet? No, I prefer slower surfaces. See a self-fulfilling prophesy. If the carpet events stayed the serve and volleyers and players whose game it suits would be prominent. Asked if they like indoor carpet - yes, I do. Self Fulfilling prophesy.

If Becker was a young man today, he wouldn't get higher than 15 in the world. He has no forum to show his wonderful game anymore. Grass is slow, no indoor carpet season.

The homegenisation of surface speeds is hurting the sport. It causes all the players to become clones of a standard baseliner.

Slower court players have 90% of the season locked up for them. They get a chance. Fast court players don't have a chance.

Proof: Ask Roger Federer why he changed his style of play at Wimbledon?

JeMar
10-15-2009, 04:11 PM
Karlovic would be The Man on Caperts. I guess they want to see more baseline power from Nadal rather than S/V of Karlovic.

What Karlovic does can hardly be called serve and volley. :)

Cody
10-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Karlovic's style is just Serve. :)

NamRanger
10-15-2009, 04:23 PM
The biggest reason that has been said to me that players generally want slower surfaces is because you have more time to get to balls to stay in points.
Also some of you are missing the point too that most players to not want indoor events at all. Many of them do not like the lighting etc. indoors and much prefer to play outside. I think you will see many indoor tournaments move to outdoor events in the coming years, as that is what the players have expressed that they want.





The only published opinions I see want indoor courts (Tsonga, Soderling, Ancic, etc.)

obsessedtennisfandisorder
10-15-2009, 08:17 PM
It's bad enough that the grass court season is basically non existent. Now the ATP has decided to change the traditional indoors season and make Shanghai an outdoors MS event. They took carpet away, now it looks as if they want to cut down on the importance of indoors events, even though one of the biggest tourneys of the year (ATP World Tour Finals) is played indoors.

This being said, I think it's ridiculous that Shanghai is a semi-outdoors even. They have the roof, but that's only used when conditions are bad. It would be ok if the court speeds were the same as they were in Shanghai for the TMC. But these courts...pardon the term...it's like 'blue clay'. The ATP has gone farther and farther over the years to neutralize court speeds, and now it seems they've taken another step, adding another slow HC outdoors MS event instead of a fast indoors or carpet MS event.

This really leaves only 2 vital indoors events - the TMC and Paris. Are they going to eventually phase out the indoors events all together? Am I the only one upset about this?

jamesblakefan, I'm really upset too....good post. we've disagreed in the past
but your onto something with this...variety of surfaces is important.

I've mentioned this for years...The money interview is Paris 2007 from fed..can't find it

DragonBlaze
10-15-2009, 08:26 PM
jamesblakefan, I'm really upset too....good post. we've disagreed in the past
but your onto something with this...variety of surfaces is important.

I've mentioned this for years...The money interview is Paris 2007 from fed..can't find it

Why? What does he say?

President of Serve/Volley
10-15-2009, 08:50 PM
There should be tournaments played on wood.



Now THAT would be fun to watch. Balls would go super fast.... fastest than any surface.

Hell, if they did do that, Pete Sampras can return and likely win every match. Or even John McEnroe.

World Beater
10-16-2009, 01:37 PM
nadal wanted the surface changed in paris if i remember correctly...and he got his wish!

abmk
10-16-2009, 08:49 PM
sad, I agree with the OP

abmk
10-16-2009, 08:51 PM
nadal wanted the surface changed in paris if i remember correctly...and he got his wish!

is it ? LOL !

egn
10-17-2009, 10:35 AM
OP ftw!

The ATP needs to go grab their schedule back from 2001 and stick to it..

vive le beau jeu !
10-17-2009, 11:00 AM
They remove the indoor carpet events - and replace them with slower court events. The players whose game suits slower court become prominent. Those players are interviewed - do you like indoor carpet? No, I prefer slower surfaces. See a self-fulfilling prophesy. If the carpet events stayed the serve and volleyers and players whose game it suits would be prominent. Asked if they like indoor carpet - yes, I do. Self Fulfilling prophesy.

If Becker was a young man today, he wouldn't get higher than 15 in the world. He has no forum to show his wonderful game anymore. Grass is slow, no indoor carpet season.

The homegenisation of surface speeds is hurting the sport. It causes all the players to become clones of a standard baseliner.

Slower court players have 90% of the season locked up for them. They get a chance. Fast court players don't have a chance.

Proof: Ask Roger Federer why he changed his style of play at Wimbledon?
very sadly true... :(

killing the carpet was a terrible idea.
join the CPL !

HAL9001
10-17-2009, 11:22 AM
LOL, stuck in the 60's and 70's much?

Those days are over. Can't remember why they stopped.

Something about twisted ankles and broken hips, I think.

:)

Wood courts could be sprung to reduce impact and squash is played on wood. Why would tennis be different?

Gizo
10-17-2009, 03:37 PM
Federer and Nadal both played a major part in hammering the final nail in the coffin for the carpet surface. In 2007, they both moaned about the taraflex surface that was last used at the Paris Masters up to and includig 2006. Unfortunately the tournament directors there caved in to these spoilt prima donnas and replaced the carpet with a ridiculously slow hard court. The funny thing is that Federer and Nadal played a grand total of 0 matches combined on the taraflex from 2004-2006. Nadal only ever played one match on it, a qualie in 2003 which he lost.

TheMusicLover
10-17-2009, 03:53 PM
Federer and Nadal both played a major part in hammering the final nail in the coffin for the carpet surface. In 2007, they both moaned about the taraflex surface that was last used at the Paris Masters up to and includig 2006. Unfortunately the tournament directors there caved in to these spoilt prima donnas and replaced the carpet with a ridiculously slow hard court.

This is very true, and I'm afraid you are spot-on for calling out on Fedal having been the major whiners about the carpet surface. Unfortunately, the ATP cares only about $$$$$$$$$$$$$ nowadays and bends over to the whims of the top players much too easily. :evil:
I really can't see the point in making all the courts basically the same - slowing down the fast courts (Wimbledon and most of the HC) and speeding up the clay (Madrid and RG). It's rather disgusting to those who appreciate DIVERSITY in tennis, and would like to see more 'specialists' having a chance on a particular surface...