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View Full Version : Left Arm Release On 1h Backhand


larry10s
10-20-2009, 04:44 AM
the pros hold onto the racquet longer with their left (non hitting) hand than i do . they seem to release around their left hip pocket in the foward swing whereas i let go much earlier in the foward swing when my hand is behind me .i have tried to emulate the pros and change that but unfortunately looking at some recent video of myself i still have not corrected that.:(. but will concentrate on that this year:) .since thats what the pros do there must be a biomechanicla advantage. can anyone tell me what is the advantage of doing it that way and/ or what is the disadvantage of doing it my way? thanks, larry10s

bad_call
10-20-2009, 05:00 AM
less work for the racquet holding arm amongst other reasons...

aimr75
10-20-2009, 05:06 AM
i think it helps keep the racquet stable for a longer period of time during the swing.. letting go earlier i think would cause the racquet to be less stable through to impact... maybe try having the feeling of letting go of the racquet only from the time you swing forward, it might delay you releasing the left hand

this is an older vid, but i think i tend to hold on till it gets to the hip.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0pv8o90RRs

larry10s
10-20-2009, 06:09 AM
you are still behind your hip at release but more foward than i do. look at this slo mo of fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE

bad_call
10-20-2009, 06:17 AM
you are still behind your hip at release but more foward than i do. look at this slo mo of fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE

i let go earlier than aimr or mr fed with no ill effects. so has letting go earlier or later affected your bh shot?

ryangoring
10-20-2009, 06:20 AM
I believe that I hold mine for the same amount of time as Fed and Amir does. I have been playing with 1hbh for so long now, that I dont even know the reason why we hold it that long. But as BAD_CALL said it maybe for stability?!?! Who knows.

larry10s
10-20-2009, 06:47 AM
i let go earlier than aimr or mr fed with no ill effects. so has letting go earlier or later affected your bh shot?

like most my bh is not as strong as my fh. more problems have to do with timing and footwork ,duh how unusual for that to be a key area that needs improvemnt lol. i dont think it has affected my swing into the ball. this is me about 1-2 years ago http://www.hi-techtennis.com/student_video.php?player_id=12&stroke=onehander&account=566

Sublime
10-20-2009, 07:51 AM
Our minds have been optimized over all those years of evolution to be very good at understanding and positioning our hands in space. The feedback from all our joints are pretty much centered around understand where our hands are.

We try to leverage this ability in tennis mechanics. We use our non-hitting hand on a FH to understand and gauge where the ball will be. When waiting on the ball we hold the racket with both hands, because that gives us two points of reference to the frame so that we can feel much more connected with the racket head. (This is why it's good to wait in this position with our shoulders turned for a FH, rather than at the end of the backswing)

So the longer you can hold the racket with 2 hands on your 1 handed BH the less time there is for the racket head to wonder off from where our mind thinks it is.

There's also a power consideration. You gain some racket head speed in your backhand by puffing out your chest right before impact. By keeping 2 hands on the racket, you delay unloading that last bit of speed, so its closer to contact.

larry10s
10-20-2009, 08:12 AM
^^^^ very interesting perspective. i never thought of it that way. good points

wyutani
10-20-2009, 08:29 AM
jimmy connors did this.

bad_call
10-20-2009, 08:32 AM
jimmy connors did this.

thought jimmy had 2hbh?

teachestennis
10-20-2009, 08:52 AM
the pros hold onto the racquet longer with their left (non hitting) hand than i do . they seem to release around their left hip pocket in the foward swing whereas i let go much earlier in the foward swing when my hand is behind me .i have tried to emulate the pros and change that but unfortunately looking at some recent video of myself i still have not corrected that.:(. but will concentrate on that this year:) .since thats what the pros do there must be a biomechanicla advantage. can anyone tell me what is the advantage of doing it that way and/ or what is the disadvantage of doing it my way? thanks, larry10s

This is where a study of the biomechanics as to what the pros attempt to do comes in handy. I had a decent one handed slice for thirty years but never mastered the 1HBH until Oscar Wegner's book taught me to connect the long muscles of the back by contracting my shoulder blades together as hard as I could. At 45 I was a 3.5 1H BH and had tennis elbow. Then I saw on the Wegner videos to just point the butt of the racket at the ball while I was tracking it and to then step forward but lift up and back while pulliing my shoulder blades to the finish as hard as I could. In MTM (modern tennis methodology) we teach, that force is generated by change of direction, creating racket acceleration and torque. I often count to five beginning at one on the bounce and then blast it on five. My shoulders used to get sore and even my girlfriend noted I was developing new muscles between my scapulas when I started mastering this technique of pulling the scapulas together, keeping my body closed while I contracted my scapulas.

The pros wait until the last second to discharge force as much as possible, and actually, I bend down low, tracking with my butt of the racket to get below the ball and line it up, and once I plant my right foot forward, I have learned to lift up and back on my BH like Oscar taught Guga Kuerten to, an he had one of the best 1HBHs ever In all tennis shots, the pros attempt to use the long muscles and in the one handed backhand, focusing on even closing the racket face a bit has taught me to roll incredible topspin BH, even now that I'm 50. I hit one the other day against a 5.0 player I teach and he thought I was lucking out until I did it three times in a row and he couldn't even react as I was in the zone and pulled the racket back behind me and then just got down low and lifted up while pulling across so fast even I didn't see the shot until it was flying over the net wide to his backhand. I was focused on shaping the shot with the back of my hand, pulling across it as fast as I could, pushing my chest towards the sideline. I have a very nice 1HBH that can stand up against any 6.0 player fairly well, though I have to close the racket and hit it a lot earlier against that level player. Try it, focus on waiting, on pulling your large back muscles together, and be sure to lift up and pull back.

W Cats
10-21-2009, 10:32 AM
Sometimes I have a problem with finding the bottom of my stroke, especially on the BH side and I end up hitting the ball flatter than I intended to. When I delay the release of my left hand till it mildly strikes my thigh below my pocket, it helps to get the racquet head low and into the "slot" that I need to execute the shot with topspin.

I also had a lesson once where the pro sugessted that I hold on with my left hand longer to the point of actually feeling the sensation of it providing resistance as you begin pulling with the dominant hand to increase head speed. Sort of like a sling shot. The resistance was mild but noticable. I never did incorporate this as it felt very awkward.:-?

nabrug
10-21-2009, 01:31 PM
the pros hold onto the racquet longer with their left (non hitting) hand than i do . they seem to release around their left hip pocket in the foward swing whereas i let go much earlier in the foward swing when my hand is behind me .i have tried to emulate the pros and change that but unfortunately looking at some recent video of myself i still have not corrected that.:(. but will concentrate on that this year:) .since thats what the pros do there must be a biomechanicla advantage. can anyone tell me what is the advantage of doing it that way and/ or what is the disadvantage of doing it my way? thanks, larry10s

Larry10s started the same thread under nickname IIII at Tennisplayer.

I recently discovered the inner system of nowadays tennis stroke production. Synchronisations or coordination patterns of bodyparts which have set relationships with each other. I knew there had to be these kind of relationships within the body. After years I finally discovered it. I was also fed up with my teachers who only tried to improve me through caracteristics. The caracteristics are the obvious things we can see in tennis stroke production. But I was looking for the essence, the inner system. I wanted to understand the stroke. I want tennis interests to know my discovery and so I wanted to help IIII.

The inner system of stroke production is the sum of the relationships which parts of the body must have. Actions of parts of the body must be synchronised and/or flow out of each other. In nowadays tennis the inner system for the groundstrokes, smash and service is a push-in-push system. This principle follows the kinetic chain. From the ground up and from the inside to the outside like tennis teachers learn in their education. This stays like it is. Only that does not mean that the inner system follows the kinetic chain step by step. The inner system, derived from the pro’s, showed me that there must occur synchronisations/connections of lower and higher body parts. By “skipping” some bodyparts the kinetic chain gets faster because the transfer is directer.

Here are the posts published at Tennisplayer.

<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<In my opinion do not focus on this caracteristic. First focus on the essence of the stroke. The inner system. Than this caracteristic will be solved at once. Or in other words in my opion it is a caracteristic you should not worry about. This against caracteristics which really influence the inner system. But imo first the essence than the caracteristics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by llll
can you elaborate on inner system and carachteristic please?
First of all I want to declare that everybody who is giving advice have good intentions. Let there be no doubt about that.

The inner system of stroke production is the sum of the relationships between parts of the body within the body which have to be synchronised in a specific way. For the BH it is a push-in-push system. In your video’s I do not see that.

The inner system gives us the stroke. And the stroke is giving us caracteristics. In that order. The essence is hard to see. The caracteristics are very obvious to see. Very different from dance- and movement academies in tennis they teach only caracteristics and not the essence of stroke production. I have not heart from anyone in the tennisworld who will teach you the inner system. Oscar Wegner’s method is the only exception for he is partly opening a little bit of the inner system. The way teachers should teach is from the essence to the caracteristics. The road from caracteristics to the essence is a very slow one and eventually only for the people who have the talent themselves. You can see it in this thread already. Well meant advice but in short: paralysis by analysis.

Once again, but be stubborn if you wish (I am), the caracteristic you mentioned will never be an important issue. Other caracteristics will be. Once you know the inner system it will be solved right away.

Oh, by the way http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...93712-0001.mov is an example of Federer using a really unique inner system for the 1hBH which I call BH2. Federer is also using the “normal” technique (BH1). So caracteristics derived from this example can be right for this technique but can also be very wrong for BH1. The technique I saw in your video’s.>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

Federer is using both inner systems on the FH side. The “normal” one I call FH1/BH1 and the unique one FH2/BH2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0pv8o90RRs Aimr75 is IMO showing here an inner connection and synchronisation of the right bodyparts. Maybe it can be optimilised much more? But okay the essence of the stroke is there. Now it is time IMO to look at the caracteristics.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/student...er&account=566 is IMO not showing the inner system of the BH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE This clip is finally showing a BH1. The thread at Tennisplayer only showed BH2 examples. So if you still want to learn through caracteristics learn it from this clip. Federer is showing the inner system in a superb way. You can also see Federer hitting more like what Aimr75 is showing in his clip. I think that depends on the game situation.

To TeachesTennis I want to say that Oscar Wegner stood at the beginning of dicovering the inner system. I still use some of his excercises to let my players (3-88 years old) feel the first push principle. His method still left so many blanks that I can understand the criticism he got. The inner system is filling in all the blanks and makes it a complete method. For a few months everything is clear to me. It gives such peace to finally understand how the pro’s produce their strokes. It is especially rewarding that you understand the unique inner system Federer discovered. Because, sad enough, I stole everything from others. Nothing original.

Gemini
10-21-2009, 01:37 PM
thought jimmy had 2hbh?

Connors does have a 2hbh.

tricky
10-21-2009, 04:27 PM
.since thats what the pros do there must be a biomechanicla advantage. can anyone tell me what is the advantage of doing it that way and/ or what is the disadvantage of doing it my way?

Basically it has to do with the shoulders. You can verify in this with a mirror. As long as the back shoulder remains elevated above the front shoulder, the hands stay together. As the shoulder reaches level height, the hands will separate, and the racquet will come through the contact zone. In slo-mo clips, this is a pretty good indication of how much real power somebody is actually transferring into their BH regardless of shoulder turn, stride, or swing style.

This also suggests the level of left vs.right hand dominance in your 1H BH. If the hand is released very early, then your 1H BH is very left hand dominant, which isn't good. If the hand is released around the hips, then that's usually a sign that the right arm is being properly loaded and is taking control of the forward swing. Which is what you want.

In theory, you can control this in your forward swing by holding on longer, or by keeping your front shoulder down through the down-to-up swing. But, the truth is, that may throw off your timing and it'll only help your power output so much.

The key is in the beginning:

As you plant your loading foot, you want to lower the racquet with your left arm (or left shoulder.) This will initiate the U/smile-pattern takeback, where you continue lowering the racquet (or bringing the racquet under the ball) with your hitting/right arm.

If you think about FHs, this intuitively makes sense. For a rightie, he separates the racquet with his left arm to initiate the takeback. Then he takes the racquet back with his right arm. Same sequence here, except that you don't separate the hands.

If you work with the above hand sequence, you'll feel more power coming into your 1H BH. This is reflected in that you'll end up releasing the racquet usually around the left hip socket. In other words, it is a natural product of the kinetic chain.

Once you get that down, then you can start looking at modifying the kinetic chain, so that your hand releases toward your right hip. To do that,. all that is needed is to visualize hitting through 3 balls when you plant your load foot. This will set up your windup to establish a really long line toward the ball, which gives you better depth control and more power (i.e. sensation of a "heavier" racquet.) You should feel a stretch between the chest and rib cage; this is part of your trunk that facilitates transverse adduction, which is also what facilitates a straight-arm FH.

teachestennis
10-21-2009, 06:37 PM
To TeachesTennis I want to say that Oscar Wegner stood at the beginning of dicovering the inner system. I still use some of his excercises to let my players (3-88 years old) feel the first push principle. His method still left so many blanks that I can understand the criticism he got. The inner system is filling in all the blanks and makes it a complete method. For a few months everything is clear to me. It gives such peace to finally understand how the pro’s produce their strokes. It is especially rewarding that you understand the unique inner system Federer discovered. Because, sad enough, I stole everything from others. Nothing original.

Did you know Oscar was in Finland working with their top coaches and in the Netherlands also earlier this year? I wonder if you are from Europe which is why I mentioned it. I wish I had one original thought in tennis. Before MTM everyone thought I sounded very knowledgable because I could quote all the "great" teaching tips from the "masters" (the usual suspects, I'll leave it at that). Now everyone knows I teach Oscar's techniques, lol so I've lost my anonymity. I don't sound as clever not being so "technical." I now teach MTM (Modern Tennis Methodology)as per having a glass wall in front of the student that I simply push to different angles with to keep the racket moving across the ball, and my students seem to like that visual analogy, but I'm sure someone already thought of that, it's just what I observed the pros doing with their windshield wipers, moving across certain angled planes. And I think you are right on that Oscar Wegner stood at the beginning but keep in mind, when I spent probably 1000 hours on court with him seeing how complete his system was, he made a very interesting point why he did not publish his complete understanding of the advanced tennis techniques on DVD. Oscar told me that first, he set the foundation, and that he left it for others to create on top of it out of respect for other coaches. Second, he chose to cast his lot at the grassroots foundation, because that is where the game needed the most help. Third, he told me that if he gave out all the advanced stuff, how the body moved in synch during the kinetic chain (and you are correct that once in the zone, the chain fires on it's own without even thinking) that coaches would always make it too technical and thus wind up distorting it because it's human nature to want to create and sound very knowledgeable and techical, and this violates Oscar's First Commandment of Tennis Coaching which is the Power of Simplicity. Fourth, he told me anyone one with the correct data could coach a great athlete which explains why so many non certified coaches such as parents can coach their children, all you have to do is not ruin a great athlete, show them the correct data, and they run with it. Fifth, he also told me if a child could not understand a tennis instruction, then an adult or great athlete who plays in the non thinking zone and by their instincts would not likely be able to understand it, and thus technicality such as the kinetic chain is only lingo used between coaches. See Oscar's First Commandment of Coaching: The Power of Simplicity.

So the blanks you mention were left there intentionally because Oscar knows that too much info can cause the real danger of a student thinking given we coaches love to show off how smart we are, and believe me, before I learned MTM, I thought I know how to teach despite the fact i could not teach full time for much of the 25 years I spent coaching prior to MTM. Now I let my students teach me what they need to reach their athletic potential. MTM is pretty weird sometimes, even I'm amazed at how it gets students to improve with the silliest simple phrases, such as find the ball, feel it, and finish it. Those are the three most important fundamentals in my book.

wyutani
10-21-2009, 06:55 PM
thought jimmy had 2hbh?

yes he does but he releases hit right hand (cos hes a lefty) after hitting a volley for example.

larry10s
10-22-2009, 04:04 AM
i am getting alot of good suggestions from everyone . thanks amillion. ill go to the courts and start trying them and get back to you with an update. dont stop with ideas if you have more to say

gzhpcu
10-22-2009, 09:44 AM
Your backhand looks pretty good to me Larry. :)

IMHO, a benefit of holding onto the racket longer with the left hand is to build up tension in the right arm, which helps it to accelerate the the moment you let go with the left hand.

Bungalo Bill
10-22-2009, 09:51 AM
the pros hold onto the racquet longer with their left (non hitting) hand than i do . they seem to release around their left hip pocket in the foward swing whereas i let go much earlier in the foward swing when my hand is behind me .i have tried to emulate the pros and change that but unfortunately looking at some recent video of myself i still have not corrected that.:(. but will concentrate on that this year:) .since thats what the pros do there must be a biomechanicla advantage. can anyone tell me what is the advantage of doing it that way and/ or what is the disadvantage of doing it my way? thanks, larry10s

Slow down the feed and learn to cradle the racquet back and then cradle it coming forward with the smile pattern right where the hip is. Keep your non-dominant arm close to your hip. Don't send it back.

Watch how long the non-dominant arm stays down and does not extend out until the swing is high in the followthrough. Do this except without the non-dominant arm going back toward the back fence.

Practice it slowly. Bring the racquet back with both hands and then forward with both hands until the hands get near the hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNVn0Q9EDn0&feature=related

larry10s
10-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Slow down the feed and learn to cradle the racquet back and then cradle it coming forward with the smile pattern right where the hip is. Keep your non-dominant arm close to your hip. Don't send it back.

Watch how long the non-dominant arm stays down and does not extend out until the swing is high in the followthrough. Do this except without the non-dominant arm going back toward the back fence.

Practice it slowly. Bring the racquet back with both hands and then forward with both hands until the hands get near the hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNVn0Q9EDn0&feature=related

im trying now to do just that. focus on holding onto the racquet until i get to my left hip. thanks for advice.

Bungalo Bill
10-23-2009, 09:55 AM
im trying now to do just that. focus on holding onto the racquet until i get to my left hip. thanks for advice.

Make sure you are using the "smile" pattern as well. Many people think they are and are not.