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chess9
10-20-2009, 08:42 AM
My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years? ;)

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister.... ;)

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Nellie
10-20-2009, 09:32 AM
I think it depends on your serve - if you have a good wide serve, it is harder for the returner to go down the line (the weakness of the Australian). Imagine, for example, that the returner is off the side of the court, trying to hit the ball over the high part of the net and back into the court. Even if the returner gets some in - some returns will likely miss.

When you play the standard formation, the wide serve give a lot of angles for the returner to go crosscourt. With Australian, your partner is there to get those crosscourt returns.

I find recreational players often can get good results by going Australian on the ad court while going standard on the duece side, thereby allowing you to target serves at the backhand side of the returners.

LeeD
10-20-2009, 10:01 AM
Assuming most 50+ year tennis players have some tennis experience, and mostly doubles, you guys in Aussie (not Ozzie) formation would do little to disrupt their games. They just lob DTL, forcing YOU to cover and start the point in DTL formation. And then they go DTL a few times before CC lobs, which can travel farther without going long, and easily over your netman.
Possibly the suggestion was fueled by YOUR lack of experience in doubles. I find few doubles teams ever have problems with Aussie formations, as it's NOT the normal, accepted, winning formation of choice for anyone.

chess9
10-20-2009, 10:57 AM
I think it depends on your serve - if you have a good wide serve, it is harder for the returner to go down the line (the weakness of the Australian). Imagine, for example, that the returner is off the side of the court, trying to hit the ball over the high part of the net and back into the court. Even if the returner gets some in - some returns will likely miss.

When you play the standard formation, the wide serve give a lot of angles for the returner to go crosscourt. With Australian, your partner is there to get those crosscourt returns.

I find recreational players often can get good results by going Australian on the ad court while going standard on the duece side, thereby allowing you to target serves at the backhand side of the returners.

Yes, this is the suggestion he made. Ad court primarily. But, I worry about a cross court backhand-a shot I hit well-and the net man having to stop quickly and reach back to volley. I don't think this is a strong suit for my partner. His footwork is good, but not brilliant. On the plus side, I serve very hard, and can hit all three serves and all parts of the court. He is less strong on serve than me, but still a solid server.

Lee:

I reached exactly the same conclusion you did. And these older players are lob meisters. I see little advantage.

-Robert

SystemicAnomaly
10-20-2009, 11:50 PM
Ozzie doubles, huh? Was this, perchance, a tennis formation developed by Ricky Nelson's dad (whose wife = Harriet)? Or perhaps this was a version of doubles developed by Black Sabbath where one or both partners are required to bite the head off a bat for every match lost?

SystemicAnomaly
10-20-2009, 11:57 PM
Sorry Robert. Couldn't resist.

chess9
10-21-2009, 02:51 AM
Sorry Robert. Couldn't resist.

No problemo! ;)

-Robert

larry10s
10-21-2009, 04:21 AM
do you plan to have the net player always stay or will you be doing signals where the net player will cross sometimes and sometimes not? for you as a singles player the advantage of australian is you are starting off closer to the center more like your singles serving starting point.i disagree with nellie you dont want to serve wide unless that is a glaring weak return side. most serves should be up the middle so if the net player crosses hes closer to the ball when it crosses the net from the middle than if you serve wide.i agree many teams use aussie on the ad side so the server gets to hit a forehand(righty). aussie as the steady formation loses its novelty as the match goes on so i think it loses its effectiveness.I formation would be better as a steady (every)formation but older guys sometime have trouble bending down low enough and/or getting up fast enough from that position:(

larry10s
10-21-2009, 04:24 AM
heres a link from operations doubles http://web.archive.org/web/20071023183535/www.operationdoubles.com/australian_doubles_tennis.htm

5263
10-21-2009, 07:30 AM
do you plan to nave the net player always stay or will you be doing signals where the net player will cross sometimes and sometimes not? for you as a singles player the advantage of australian is you are starting off closer to the center more like your singles serving starting point.i disagree with nellie you dont want to serve wide unless that is a glaring weak return side. most serves should be up the middle so if the net player crosses hes closer to the ball when it crosses the net from the middle than if you serve wide.i agree many teams use aussie on the ad side so the server gets to hit a forehand(righty). aussie as the steady formation loses its novelty as the match goes on so i think it loses its effectiveness.I formation would be better as a steady (every)formation but older guys sometime have trouble bending down low enough and/or getting up fast enough from that position:(

With you on this Larry,
Standard formation is the standard for a good reason in this case. Other formations should be used as change ups and/or to take advantage of certain skill sets/ match ups (or lack there of).

LuckyR
10-21-2009, 10:08 AM
My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years? ;)

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister.... ;)

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Australian formation has no inherant advantage when played as you say your partner wants to, ie both sides, every point, for no particular reason. In fact, since the server will have to travel a bit farther to cover routine returns and much, much farther to cover lobs, it has a low to moderate disadvantage.

Naturally we all know there are specific instances where it can provide a solution to a specific problem, but you aren't asking about that.

chess9
10-24-2009, 09:39 AM
heres a link from operations doubles http://web.archive.org/web/20071023183535/www.operationdoubles.com/australian_doubles_tennis.htm

Excellent resource. Many thanks!

-Robert

chess9
10-24-2009, 09:45 AM
Australian formation has no inherant advantage when played as you say your partner wants to, ie both sides, every point, for no particular reason. In fact, since the server will have to travel a bit farther to cover routine returns and much, much farther to cover lobs, it has a low to moderate disadvantage.

Naturally we all know there are specific instances where it can provide a solution to a specific problem, but you aren't asking about that.

Yes, I agree.

-Robert

Burt Turkoglu
10-24-2009, 11:19 AM
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

chess9
10-24-2009, 12:37 PM
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

ubermeyer
10-24-2009, 12:56 PM
don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

SystemicAnomaly
10-24-2009, 02:40 PM
don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

You are not playing it correctly. The serving team might start in an up-back (or "I") formation but they do not stay that way -- as soon as the serve receiver has started their forward swing, the "up" player moves one way or the other. The "back" player moves accordingly.
.

larry10s
10-24-2009, 05:37 PM
What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

if %80 of serves you face are up the T i dont think you go down the line that often

LeeD
10-26-2009, 09:53 AM
I really think it DEPENDS on the return skills of your opposition. If they can only return well CC, then Aussie works.
However, serve me up the middle on either court, and my best topspin returns DTL come into play. I like to go into the alley from center position, and the low dipping heavy topspin shot is not easy to put away for the netman.
Unfortunately, I also have a weaker CC return, usually sliced, sometimes floatedly sliced, so it would do well to play normal and serve well wide to my backhand.

LuckyR
10-27-2009, 12:13 PM
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

Happy to hear of your good fortune but most >50 year olds around here are very good lobbers and giving them the CC lob would not be pretty, especially if you are playing S&V. In addition as you go up the middle the typical DTL return will be tailing away from the server and he is starting with a 1-2 step disadvantage since he is lining up on the wrong side.

Use with caution.

Burt Turkoglu
10-27-2009, 03:42 PM
What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

I am a 4.5 with a 5.0 tournament win. I START with the aussie and look for weaknesses from there. One of my last matches, I came across a guy who hit very well from both wings into the alley but I found out he couldn't lob the return so we played the I formation with the netman close in....he struggled. Another fellow couldn't return an inside-out backhand from the deuce side if I served out wide. Always PROBE for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The reason I start out aussie is because I believe they are playing a REASON. Usually because they can hit effective crosscourt returns and/or good down the line lob returns. I've come across players that lob well down the line but cannot lob it well crosscourt. When you learn their strengths on the return, take those shots away. Make them beat you with least favorite returns.

Burt Turkoglu
10-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Happy to hear of your good fortune but most >50 year olds around here are very good lobbers and giving them the CC lob would not be pretty, especially if you are playing S&V. In addition as you go up the middle the typical DTL return will be tailing away from the server and he is starting with a 1-2 step disadvantage since he is lining up on the wrong side.

Use with caution.

We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

Burt Turkoglu
10-27-2009, 04:03 PM
don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

Aussie takes AWAY the return angles. By the time he makes contact, I am in pretty good position near the service line which brings my strengths in to play. To faster the return, the better for me. However, it is important that I stand next to the hash mark while serving mostly within a 2 feet of the center service line which I've learned to do very well. Again, you need to practice this way a bit.

Cindysphinx
10-27-2009, 06:26 PM
Burt, I'm with you.

The big advantage of Aussie is that it forces the returners out of their comfort zone. There are scores of players who have their returns dialed in. You throw them a different look, and they will either: (1) return equally well, or (2) return much more defensively. Either way, Aussie either doesn't hurt or helps.

I mean, the women I play with (most of whom are 50 or older) actually specialize in ad or deuce. I play ad. If someone lines up Aussie against me, all of my most consistent shots do not work. I now have to take my BH up the line or take my FH inside in. Or I have to lob when I don't really want to lob (or I would have been lobbing in regular formation). If I approach, I now have an opponent in the "wrong" spot, further messing me up.

I won't go to pieces, but I will have to work harder to get the point started without an error and will have to play more conservatively.

I say OP should get comfortable with Aussie and see what happens. Even some of my slower partners find they have ample time to cross to deal with the returns.

Burt Turkoglu
10-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Burt, I'm with you.

The big advantage of Aussie is that it forces the returners out of their comfort zone. There are scores of players who have their returns dialed in. You throw them a different look, and they will either: (1) return equally well, or (2) return much more defensively. Either way, Aussie either doesn't hurt or helps.

I mean, the women I play with (most of whom are 50 or older) actually specialize in ad or deuce. I play ad. If someone lines up Aussie against me, all of my most consistent shots do not work. I now have to take my BH up the line or take my FH inside in. Or I have to lob when I don't really want to lob (or I would have been lobbing in regular formation). If I approach, I now have an opponent in the "wrong" spot, further messing me up.

I won't go to pieces, but I will have to work harder to get the point started without an error and will have to play more conservatively.

I say OP should get comfortable with Aussie and see what happens. Even some of my slower partners find they have ample time to cross to deal with the returns.

You sound like a very smart 3.5 (-: You made 3 key points that I feel are important....1. Take them out of their comfort zone. 2. Many doubles players specialize on one side. Look at one of history's best doubles player, John McEnroe. Have you ever seen him on the deuce side? Ever? He has a great block inside-out backhand from the ad side. And a great topspin forehand return. Both always seems to find the netrusher's feet. I saw his last pro match a couple of years ago. He played the ad side with Bjorkman in the deuce. They won the tournament. He returned great in the early rounds but in the last set of the semis, the other team went "I" against him and he struggled mightily. In the finals, they used the "I" and again he struggled. Fortunately, Bjorkman returned out of his mind. Anyway, this formation took away his signature shots. And number 3....to "get comfortable with Aussie" so that YOU are comfortable with it. The Aussie is certainly not the "end all" formation but it is, at the very least a viable Plan B when you are struggling holding serve. After matches, I've had opponents admit that they didn't like it.

LuckyR
10-28-2009, 11:34 AM
We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.


If the netman positions deep in the Aussie, then the netman would be more vulnerable to dipper returns right at them (since the net is lower there from the Aussie). If your lobbers didn't figure that out, then I am not suprised you killed them. But again, I would use with caution routinely.

Cindysphinx
10-28-2009, 05:46 PM
If they can lob in Aussie formation and make the server scramble, they can do it in regular. Aussie has the advantage that the server lines up in the middle and therefore can go either way to track down lobs.

Bungalo Bill
10-28-2009, 07:01 PM
My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years? ;)

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister.... ;)

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Hey Robert,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the I formation or the Aussie formation? They are different and used for different purposes. Sometimes people get the names mixed up.

One of the main purposes for the Aussie is to take the crosscourt return away from a good returner. The netman usually stays and the serve just moves to the opposite from a normal formation.

The I formation can be mixed in any timeand is useful for multiple purposes.

5263
10-29-2009, 06:55 AM
We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

Fast helps, but really you don't even have to be fast if you recognize lobs early and get those hips and shoulders turned quick, opposed to watching and waddling back. but I'm not telling you anything as you clearly have the Right mindset against the lob for doubles.
I, like you, love to make them lob.

chess9
10-29-2009, 07:20 AM
I am a 4.5 with a 5.0 tournament win. I START with the aussie and look for weaknesses from there. One of my last matches, I came across a guy who hit very well from both wings into the alley but I found out he couldn't lob the return so we played the I formation with the netman close in....he struggled. Another fellow couldn't return an inside-out backhand from the deuce side if I served out wide. Always PROBE for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The reason I start out aussie is because I believe they are playing a REASON. Usually because they can hit effective crosscourt returns and/or good down the line lob returns. I've come across players that lob well down the line but cannot lob it well crosscourt. When you learn their strengths on the return, take those shots away. Make them beat you with least favorite returns.

Very good analysis.

-Robert

chess9
10-29-2009, 07:22 AM
We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

Yes, I've found the same. Doubles is a game of patience and explosion, eh? ;)

-Robert

chess9
10-29-2009, 07:27 AM
Hey Robert,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the I formation or the Aussie formation? They are different and used for different purposes. Sometimes people get the names mixed up.

One of the main purposes for the Aussie is to take the crosscourt return away from a good returner. The netman usually stays and the serve just moves to the opposite from a normal formation.

The I formation can be mixed in any timeand is useful for multiple purposes.

I was referring to Aussie. We are going to be playing a lot of steady returners as these guys are all close to 4.5 in doubles and 50-60 years old. Both of us are fairly hard servers with consistent serves, though I can hit a big twist or a 100 mph flat serve, so we usually get a pop up if my first serve goes in.

I would say the biggest problem for our team is MY shot selection. I have an extensive singles repertoire, but none in doubles. Historically, I've loathed doubles. :) But, I'm trying to appreciate doubles more now that I no longer have mother's milk in my mouth. ;) When I get old I might play doubles even more. ;) Anyway, I love hitting down the line at 80 mph and in doubles that's often not the wise shot, obviously. But, I just love giving the guy at the net a hot ball to handle. Too much testosterone, still....

-Robert

Bungalo Bill
10-29-2009, 07:28 PM
I was referring to Aussie. We are going to be playing a lot of steady returners as these guys are all close to 4.5 in doubles and 50-60 years old. Both of us are fairly hard servers with consistent serves, though I can hit a big twist or a 100 mph flat serve, so we usually get a pop up if my first serve goes in.

I would say the biggest problem for our team is MY shot selection. I have an extensive singles repertoire, but none in doubles. Historically, I've loathed doubles. :) But, I'm trying to appreciate doubles more now that I no longer have mother's milk in my mouth. ;) When I get old I might play doubles even more. ;) Anyway, I love hitting down the line at 80 mph and in doubles that's often not the wise shot, obviously. But, I just love giving the guy at the net a hot ball to handle. Too much testosterone, still....

-Robert

I love doubles when my partner and I are in sync and moving. I hate doubles when we aren't and are wrestling with our individual personalities and styles.

So Aussie style? Well, here is my take as doubles is what I have played nearly all my time with tennis. I am an okay singles player but doubles is my game.

AUSSIE FORMATION
You already know that the Aussie formation is used to put pressure on your opponents who have real good crosscourt returns. It can be used as a poaching formation especially if your opponent is not a good straight-away hitter and is leaving some balls short that your partner can either take the ball instinctively on a poach or from a planned play. You would simply come straight in as normal.

The Aussie formation places you and your partner in a switched position, so you have to be aware of somethings. Because there is a high chance your partner is gonna hit the ball (unless the returner demonstrates he is good straight-away returner as well), he is going to have to know how to handle the ball that will be hit to him.

1. He needs to have a good up the middle volley.

2. He needs to have good reflexes and challenge the opponents netman who he is straight across from and be ready for a quick exchange. Obviously, your partner needs to have good command of his volleys and footwork.

The bottom-line is the Aussie is all about ending the point quickly and your netman needs to know he just cant "get it" back.

As the server, you can position yourself two ways. Either slide over and stay back, or come in diagnolly and line-up to take net on the opposite side as your partner. If you stay back, and you are serving to the AD court, you can use the stay back strategy and use your strong DTL type forehand to be aggresive on your opponents returner who hit it straight away back to you.

One of the reasons you want to end the point quickly is because you are in a switched position. This means you are vulnerable to be poached on if you do not take command of the point. If you choose to stay back and take advantage of your forehand, then you need to know that your weakness in that formation is diagnolly between both of you.

If you decide to come up to net, you eliminate the switched position and you play net.

The serve for this formation is very important. You have to have a good one and it is one of the few times you dont necessarily want to hit down the T. Instead, for the Australian, you wan to hit into the body and jam them. You dont want them to get a good cut at the ball. So the best serve is into the hips.

The Aussie should be used sparingly as it has holes in the defense of the formation. IMO, it is the most aggressive of all formations and you are basically telling your opponent that "this point is going to be over quickly." Because the Aussie is an aggresive formation you also increase your risk of losing the point as well. This formation is a "go for it and see what happens" kind of formation.

If you do decide to poach using the formation and get out of the switched position do it on a good serve and the side of the court where you can handle the incoming ball from your serve.

chess9
10-30-2009, 04:59 AM
I love doubles when my partner and I are in sync and moving. I hate doubles when we aren't and are wrestling with our individual personalities and styles.

So Aussie style? Well, he is my take as doubles is what I have played nearly all my time with tennis. I am an okay singles player but doubles is my game.

AUSSIE FORMATION
You already know that the Aussie formation is used to put pressure on your opponents who have real good crosscourt returns. It can be used as a poaching formation especially if your opponent is not a good straight-away hitter and is leaving some balls short that you partner can either take the ball instinctively on a poach or from a planned play. You would simply come straight in as normal.

The Aussie formation places you and your partner in a switched position, so you have to be aware of somethings. Because there is a high chance your partner is gonna hit the ball (unless the returner demonstrates he is good straight-away returner as well), he is going to have to know how to handle the ball that will be hit to him.

1. He needs to have a good up the middle volley.

2. He needs to have good reflexes and challenge the opponents netman who he is straight across from and be ready for a quick exchange. Obviously, your partner needs to have good command of his volleys and footwork.

The bottom-line is the Aussie is all about ending the point quickly and your netman needs to know he just cant "get it" back.

As the server, you can position yourself two ways. Either slide over and stay back, or come in diagnolly and line-up to take net on the opposite side as your partner. If you stay back, and you are serving to the AD court, you can use the stay back strategy and use your strong DTL type forehand to be aggresive on your opponents returner who hit it straight away back to you.

One of the reasons you want to end the point quickly is because you are in a switched position. This means you are vulnerable to be poached on if you do not take command of the point. If you choose to stay back and take advantage of your forehand, then you need to know that your weakness in that formation is diagnolly between both of you.

If you decide to come up to net, you eliminate the switched position and you play net.

The serve for this formation is very important. You have to have a good one and it is one of the few times you dont necessarily want to hit down the T. Instead, for the Australian, you wan to hit into the body and jam them. You dont want them to get a good cut at the ball. So the best serve is into the hips.

The Aussie should be used sparingly as it has holes in the defense of the formation. IMO, it is the most aggressive of all formations and you are basically telling your opponent that "this point is going to be over quickly." Because the Aussie is an aggresive formation you also increase your risk of losing the point as well. This formation is a "go for it and see what happens" kind of formation.

If you do decide to poach using the formation and get out of the switched position do it on a good serve and the side of the court where you can handle the incoming ball from your serve.

That's great stuff, BB! Many thanks. I sent that to my doubles partner. Based on that, and his lack of footspeed, I'm loathe to recommend Aussie Doubles, but we'll try it in practice.

-Robert

moroni
10-30-2009, 05:21 AM
it would be an incredible solution (if you were playing in prince of tennis) real life nope it requires more atheletism and fitness than standard doubles formation ,, something you lack at this ag i suppose,, so go standard ,,,you can go Australian in some points to mix it up but not all the points

chess9
10-30-2009, 07:00 AM
it would be an incredible solution (if you were playing in prince of tennis) real life nope it requires more atheletism and fitness than standard doubles formation ,, something you lack at this ag i suppose,, so go standard ,,,you can go Australian in some points to mix it up but not all the points

Funny! I'd love to be the PrinceOfTennis! ;) I agree about the athleticism. That's a good word for what's missing at my age. ;)

-Robert

Bungalo Bill
10-30-2009, 08:44 AM
That's great stuff, BB! Many thanks. I sent that to my doubles partner. Based on that, and his lack of footspeed, I'm loathe to recommend Aussie Doubles, but we'll try it in practice.

-Robert

But you can use the I formation. That is a very versatile formation and you might want to use it when the straight-away return of your opponent goes to your forehand. So if you are right handed, that would be the AD side.

chess9
10-30-2009, 09:21 AM
But you can use the I formation. That is a very versatile formation and you might want to use it when the straight-away return of your opponent goes to your forehand. So if you are right handed, that would be the AD side.

I play the ad side. :)

I'll look at the I formation as a possibility, but I've never played it, and the issues look similar, at first blush.

-Robert

Bungalo Bill
10-30-2009, 09:23 AM
I play the ad side. :)

I'll look at the I formation as a possibility, but I've never played it, and the issues look similar, at first blush.

-Robert

At first blush they do. So does certain openings in chess. ;)

The I formation can be used any time. I would suggest you have a good up the T serve when you use it. Mix it in because you dont have to poach or get in in a switched position if you dont want too.

Cindysphinx
11-02-2009, 01:36 PM
Hey, Chess?

I played some 7.0 mixed doubles yesterday. Opponents were a 4.0 guy in the deuce court; 3.0 woman in the ad court.

Throughout the first set, the guys held and the women were broken. This left us at 5-5 with the other woman stepping up to serve. We broke her. Which meant it was up to me to serve out the set. :gulp :

I was having all kinds of trouble on my serve. I hadn't played in six weeks and I had zero footwork, which mean zero groundstrokes. The 4.0 was crushing my serve back to me almost before I regained my balance, and I wasn't getting these balls back.

I suggested to my partner (3.5 guy who is not comfortable at net) that he line up Australian, which he had never heard of. I explained it quickly. On the first point, the 4.0 sent his return to my partner, who missed the volley. On subsequent points, the 4.0 decided instead to take his return DTL.

And guess what? He missed. He missed once into the net and once long. I'll never know why he missed, but I suppose that having to take his FH to his alley on a ball curving toward him up the middle threw him off just enough. Those errors were what we needed for me to hold, and we won the set.

Which backs up the theory that Australian really can disrupt a grooved returner.

Bungalo Bill
11-02-2009, 01:55 PM
Hey, Chess?

I played some 7.0 mixed doubles yesterday. Opponents were a 4.0 guy in the deuce court; 3.0 woman in the ad court.

Throughout the first set, the guys held and the women were broken. This left us at 5-5 with the other woman stepping up to serve. We broke her. Which meant it was up to me to serve out the set. :gulp :

I was having all kinds of trouble on my serve. I hadn't played in six weeks and I had zero footwork, which mean zero groundstrokes. The 4.0 was crushing my serve back to me almost before I regained my balance, and I wasn't getting these balls back.

I suggested to my partner (3.5 guy who is not comfortable at net) that he line up Australian, which he had never heard of. I explained it quickly. On the first point, the 4.0 sent his return to my partner, who missed the volley. On subsequent points, the 4.0 decided instead to take his return DTL.

And guess what? He missed. He missed once into the net and once long. I'll never know why he missed, but I suppose that having to take his FH to his alley on a ball curving toward him up the middle threw him off just enough. Those errors were what we needed for me to hold, and we won the set.

Which backs up the theory that Australian really can disrupt a grooved returner.

There you go. In general, that is what the Aussie does. It forces the returner to go directly at the netman or try to hit it DTL. If he is not used to that, and has always played "hit it crosscourt" which many recreational players do, your chances to end the point quick on your winner or their error increase!

naylor
11-02-2009, 04:32 PM
... and you need a partner that can place their service well (and change the placement if needed, when the netperson is switched to Aussie).

I have used the formation occasionally in mixed doubles, from the deuce side. My partner kept serving to the receiver's forehand, and she got into a good groove hitting solid crosscourt returns. This pinned my serving partner at the back, as she was not comfortable attempting to volley the returns, but this made us more vulnerable:- the returner now had a choice, 1) shorter, more acute crosscourt returns to stop me from attempting to intercept, and also force my partner to rush up and lift the ball (an easy putaway for her partner), or 2) a normal deeper crosscourt to force a weak shot by my partner (and another putaway by her partner at the net). So, we tried Aussie a couple of times. But of course, the serve still kept going to the returner's forehand, who now simply had to push it down the line and then the ladies started rallying down the line - but from my partner's weakness (backhand) to the receiver's forehand strength, so it didn't take long for the opponent at the net to pick up an interception and put the volley away.

The lesson from this is, for this formation to work it's not just about cutting out the obvious crosscourt return (by playing Aussie), but crucially it's also about the server taking the receiver out of his/her comfort groove and placing the serve somewhere other than the forehand wheelhouse (so, a lot wider, or a jammer, or down the T to the backhand). Of course, if my partner had been able to do this in the first instance - when we were in the normal formation - the returner would not have got into her groove, which would have avoided the problem altogether.

I've only been at the receiving end of the Aussie formation once, recently, in a men's doubles match. I got into a good groove returning from the backhand side, stepping in for topspin backhand crosscourts on first serves, and running around for forehand inside-out crosscourts on second serves, so the opponents switched to Aussie. And the server also changed first serve placement, going for a jammer. What he didn't realise is that the movement for stepping in for a topspin backhand also unjams the forehand, which gave me enough room to take the ball at the top of the bounce and drive it deep down the singles service line. With hindsight, the server should only have posed one challenge (given me the same wide serve, but asked that I changed the direction of the backhand return to down-the-line); instead, he also challenged that I play an early forehand return, but of course with the Aussie position he was also giving me a huge target to punish him with.

I guess the key is that the switch to Aussie can work if the server is already "doing the right things" (decent serves, well placed to the backhand) but they're not working as expected (I was grooved) - then, the challenge is to ask me to play the same shot, but to a completely different target, immediately. But if the starting point is the server is not doing his/her work properly so the pressure is caused by the weak serve, then going Aussie is not the answer because it's a worse defensive formation than the normal one.