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View Full Version : Expensive multis vs cheap NG and other alternatives


ac3111
10-25-2009, 03:36 PM
Since last April I was playing with Babolat Tonic 16g gut.
Now I am trying Rip Control 16 and K GutPro 17. Already placed an order for some polys but I want to try a few more multis before I come to any conclusion.
Checked some very well known multis like the X-1 B phase and Babolat Xcel premium and power.
The X-one B phase in terms of price is very close to the Tonic 16 and I was wondering why someone would buy an expensive multi and not go the Tonic route even if Tonic is lower quality natural gut...

So I did some research and narrowed my choices to the following multis that would combine power, control and maintenance..
1. Weisscannon Explosiv 1.30
2. Klip Venom 17
3. Topspin Cyberblue 1.24

The racquets to be strung with are PS 6.0 95 16x18, K 6.1. 95 18x20, AG 4D 300 Tour, Liquidmetal Radical MP, and maybe Pure Storm LTD GT...
For the latter I am considering Tonic 16...

I know Topspin Cyberblue or Weisscannon Explosiv or Klip Venom 17 can not substitute or reproduce the feel or power of Tonic strung at the same tension but are they good choices for their price compared to the expensive multis of Babolat and Tecnifibre?

slow_duster
10-25-2009, 03:41 PM
Please let me know what you think of the Rip control 16. I am looking for string with good spin, low power, and softer on my elbow than Prince syn gut (duraflex) at same tensions. Thanks

ac3111
10-25-2009, 03:47 PM
I like more the combination of Rip Control+PS 6.0 95 16x18 than the KGutPro 17+K 6.1 95 18x20...
The RipControl 16 although thicker I think it gives more spin. Both racquets are strung at the same tension. Control seems to be on the side of KGutPro 17 but Pro Staff 6.0 95 is more comfortable and powerful I think than the K 6.1. 95.
The KGutPro 17 feels a bit springy... it may be that new Wilson Pro Feel Plus vibration dampener... I think it is more for decoration...

aggfan
12-28-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm thinking of chosing one of the below for my Dunlop 4d 200 (18x20). Any feedback is appreciated.

Kgut 17: Really liked it, but it's a bit expensive. I'll love to have something similar to kgut but little cheaper. I loved the control and ball gripping of kgut and the string doesn't move much.

X-1 biphase: Prefer the Kgut over x-1

Head Rip Control 17L : Just got it strung on one of my racquets. Need to test it out.

Tech NRG2 17 or Gamma Live Wire Xp 17: Which one these I should demo first.

I'm looking for a string that has the max control and great ball gripping for a multi (don't wanna go with the Polys). Or maybe something similar to kgut but little cheap.

BreakPoint
12-28-2009, 06:36 PM
Kgut 17: Really liked it, but it's a bit expensive. I'll love to have something similar to kgut but little cheaper. I loved the control and ball gripping of kgut and the string doesn't move much.
Hmmm...sounds to me like you're describing a poly. :wink:


I'm looking for a string that has the max control and great ball gripping for a multi (don't wanna go with the Polys). Or maybe something similar to kgut but little cheap.
Why don't you want to go with polys? The characteristics of K-Gut that you describe that you like are common amongst polys, and almost all polys are cheaper than K-Gut. The only strings that I have ever tried that play similar to K-Gut have all been polys.

aggfan
12-28-2009, 07:24 PM
Kgut plays better for me than polys. It doesn't losses tension much has better power and is better for my arm.

I know you had issues with Kgut, but for me it's more comfortable than any poly.

BreakPoint
12-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Kgut plays better for me than polys. It doesn't losses tension much has better power and is better for my arm.

I know you had issues with Kgut, but for me it's more comfortable than any poly.
Have you also tried K-Gut Pro?

aggfan
12-28-2009, 09:08 PM
Nope, haven't tried the kgut pro. But it's the same price as kgut.

ClubHoUno
12-28-2009, 10:11 PM
Have you also tried K-Gut Pro?

I have tried both [K] Gut and [K] Gut Pro, and I know how you feel about them, especially the Pro.

But to be honest, I did NOT feel quite the same way about them, once I did find my preferred tension for them. I found they both played stiff at high tension, but I normally string multis at high tension, but they still did NOT feel like poly, more like a soft new generation CoPoly and at 4 lbs lower tension they started to feel like a real multi, especially the [K] Gut NON PRO.
I agree that playing better at low tension sounds very poly like, and maybe Wilson made this multi for avid poly users/fans, who wanted something better feeling. Maybe Wilson just didn't test it enough or got some weird feedback on it from all the volunteer testers.

I still think It's an OK string, but prefer the NXT TOUR - but I've never been a Wilson string fan, and since I found out they got most of their high techstrings from Babolat and Tecnifibre, I just dumped Wilson as a brand altogether.

Used to be a complete Wilson HO in the 90's - Wilson racquets, wilson bag, wilson overgrip, wilson leather grip, wilson dampener, wilson strings, wilson balls etc.

Not so anymore. Next year, I will have NOTHING from Wilson in my bag and my bags will be from Babolat and Head.

But still will not agree that [K] Gut and [K] Gut Pro plays like a poly and hurts your arm like a stiff poly - but I agree that It's not the softest multi out there, and It's most definitely NOT the best multi out there for my game.

armsty
12-28-2009, 10:18 PM
How does Gaucho Natural Gut compare to NXT, KGut, X-1 BiPhase, Multifeel, etc.?

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 12:39 AM
But still will not agree that [K] Gut and [K] Gut Pro plays like a poly and hurts your arm like a stiff poly - but I agree that It's not the softest multi out there, and It's most definitely NOT the best multi out there for my game.
ALL polys hurt my arm, even the softest ones you can think of, like SPPP, ProLine II, Luxilon M2 Pro, etc. So that's why I find K-Gut Pro to feel as stiff as a poly, because even if it's no stiffer than a soft poly, that's still too stiff for me, so for me, it might as well BE a poly. I got TE from using K-Gut Pro because I continued to use it for two weeks even though I would cut out even the softest of polys in only 10 minutes. And I only kept using it because I thought K-Gut Pro was supposed to be a arm-friendly, high-end multi which shouldn't damage my arm. Boy, was I wrong! :(

BTW, yes, K-Gut is not as stiff as K-Gut Pro, but both are stiffer than any other multis I have ever used.

armsty
12-29-2009, 12:55 AM
Does it actually feel stiff or just cause arm pain?

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 01:01 AM
Does it actually feel stiff or just cause arm pain?
Both. It even behaves like a poly when you string it, i.e., on a drop weight stringer, the weight doesn't drop at all so there's no resiliency in K-Gut and K-Gut Pro, just like with polys. K-Gut Pro feels and plays as stiff as any poly I've ever tried. It also doesn't move very much in the stringbed, just like a poly.

raygo
12-29-2009, 04:23 AM
I just tried TF Promix and it's hard to believe it's a poly. Pliable as a multi, more feel than M2 but not as much as a 'true' multi. I think I'm in love. :)

Valjean
12-29-2009, 04:47 AM
Neither K-Gut nor K-Gut Pro have caused any arm problems for anyone that I am aware of. Instead, most experiences correspond pretty much to those for multis with comparable string data, within the multi subset. This is confirmed by feedback information on this site for K-Gut and K-Gut Pro as well as the comments and ratings provided by the USRSA's 25-30 randomly-selected playtesters, in each case, here:

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2009/01/1600_wilson_k_gut_pro_16.html

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2008/03/wilson_k_gut_16.html

BP, even though you've been previously shown and made aware of how unique your K-Gut experience is to you, you persist in over-representing yourself, requiring us each time to offer alternative reviews in order to balance it. No one so far has agreed that K-Gut has caused their arm troubles, as you insist they have, for example. How about showing an awareness of where K-Gut opinion truly stands, and where you stand out then, from now on? Label your view as selfishly brought in, and we won't have to begin doing it for you then.

Richie Rich
12-29-2009, 06:08 AM
I just tried TF Promix and it's hard to believe it's a poly. Pliable as a multi, more feel than M2 but not as much as a 'true' multi. I think I'm in love. :)

it is a unique string. i enjoyed hitting with it a few years ago. under the radar for sure as it's been around a long time. i'm not even sure if TF still makes promix, do they?

Richie Rich
12-29-2009, 06:12 AM
Neither K-Gut nor K-Gut Pro have caused any arm problems for anyone that I am aware of. Instead, most experiences correspond pretty much to those for multis with comparable string data, within the multi subset. This is confirmed by feedback information on this site for K-Gut and K-Gut Pro as well as the comments and ratings provided by the USRSA's 25-30 randomly-selected playtesters, in each case, here:

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2009/01/1600_wilson_k_gut_pro_16.html

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2008/03/wilson_k_gut_16.html

BP, even though you've been previously shown and made aware of how unique your K-Gut experience is to you, you persist in over-representing yourself, requiring us each time to offer alternative reviews in order to balance it. No one so far has agreed that K-Gut has caused their arm troubles, as you insist they have, for example. How about showing an awareness of where K-Gut opinion truly stands, and where you stand out then, from now on? Label your view as selfishly brought in, and we won't have to begin doing it for you then.

while BP may a bit enthusiastic in his dislike of k-gut his point of view is good to have out there. his experience with the string may be a unique one and not fit in with the standard reviews but each persons experience is different. even if he is the only one with arm issues with k-gut/pro it might be of benefit to someone reading this.

JackB1
12-29-2009, 06:58 AM
ALL polys hurt my arm, even the softest ones you can think of, like SPPP, ProLine II, Luxilon M2 Pro, etc. So that's why I find K-Gut Pro to feel as stiff as a poly, because even if it's no stiffer than a soft poly, that's still too stiff for me, so for me, it might as well BE a poly. I got TE from using K-Gut Pro because I continued to use it for two weeks even though I would cut out even the softest of polys in only 10 minutes. And I only kept using it because I thought K-Gut Pro was supposed to be a arm-friendly, high-end multi which shouldn't damage my arm. Boy, was I wrong! :(

BTW, yes, K-Gut is not as stiff as K-Gut Pro, but both are stiffer than any other multis I have ever used.

So what do you use now?

JackB1
12-29-2009, 06:59 AM
I just tried TF Promix and it's hard to believe it's a poly. Pliable as a multi, more feel than M2 but not as much as a 'true' multi. I think I'm in love. :)

TF Promix doesn't get much attention, but its a very soft poly in the same vein as "Sonic Pro" or "Cyber Blue".

meowmix
12-29-2009, 07:02 AM
How does Gaucho Natural Gut compare to NXT, KGut, X-1 BiPhase, Multifeel, etc.?

The feel of natural gut is unique... No multi can really compare. There are some that can come close, but the feel of gut is unique. IMO, even cheap gut (like global) will play better than than more expensive multis.

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 12:16 PM
Neither K-Gut nor K-Gut Pro have caused any arm problems for anyone that I am aware of. Instead, most experiences correspond pretty much to those for multis with comparable string data, within the multi subset. This is confirmed by feedback information on this site for K-Gut and K-Gut Pro as well as the comments and ratings provided by the USRSA's 25-30 randomly-selected playtesters, in each case, here:

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2009/01/1600_wilson_k_gut_pro_16.html

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2008/03/wilson_k_gut_16.html

BP, even though you've been previously shown and made aware of how unique your K-Gut experience is to you, you persist in over-representing yourself, requiring us each time to offer alternative reviews in order to balance it. No one so far has agreed that K-Gut has caused their arm troubles, as you insist they have, for example. How about showing an awareness of where K-Gut opinion truly stands, and where you stand out then, from now on? Label your view as selfishly brought in, and we won't have to begin doing it for you then.
Yet, you keep ignoring everyone here that keep saying that K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are STIFF and have caused them arm/shoulder problems. No, I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about these strings. :-?

K gut pro's very stiff, stiffer than some polys out there.

I'd say NXT tour is the closest. K Gut is way too stiff.

The usrsa ratings are worthless to me. I have had elbow problems for 10 years the yonex 880 I can play 30 days in a row pain free that rates at 188. I tried kgut pro which rates much lower and my arm was killing me for days. I think you need to test the string on the court to really tell if something hurts or not. What may feel good for one person my hurt another. Lab tests on strings are as worthless as the paper they are on.



To Breakpoint,

I agree with you on the stiffness of KGut Pro - it was surprisingly so for a multi. I normally play with VS M, ALU X in my K90, and thought I'd try this just for fun. My wife plays with NXT in her KBlade 98, and we put some 17 in her stick.

She comes back to me before I can play with my setup, "What IS this?". I play with my K90 and think the same. We have em cut out.

I've played quite a few string setups, Venom, Excellerator, NXT, NXT Tour, VS Gut, Hybrid, all ALU in various forms. KGut Pro is on the stiff side of all of these... more along the lines of a poly, at least to start. I'm not sure if it breaks in and becomes a bit softer, because I didn't give it a chance.

I had a K 95 18x20 strung at 52.8 lbs with KGut Pro 17g and a Dunlop AG 4D 300 Tour at 51.5 lbs with MSV Focus hex 1.18...
I know K 6.1 must be stiffer than Dunlop but string pattern is the same and tension also is very close.
KGut Pro feels too stiff compared with MSV Hex 1.18. If I had my eyes closed I'd think that the KGut Pro must be the poly.
And I start to wonder whether my stringer strings my racquets according to my desired tension...

Should I start doubting about his abilities? K Gut Pro feels noticeably stiffer so I wonder if it is strung several lbs/kgs more than the MSV...

I agree with breakpoint because he told me about it after I got my microgel extreme strung with it.If I play for two hours or more My shoulder hurts a little bit before I go to bed or the next day and Im only 16.But I've been playing with very stiff racquets last 2 years.k sixonetour flex 67 microgel extreme 2008 flex 68 But right now im trying out a prince ozone tour right and it feels softer so I might go to that.

I have tried K-Gut Pro in the past and really like it. I found that it does have a unique feel to it for a multi for sure. I found that it can feel stiff to someone that is not used to stiffer strings but for me being mostly a poly user I found it pretty soft. It also has a bit of a tacky coating to it that I really enjoyed.
I think that this string is very overpriced but certainly a very nice string.

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 12:20 PM
So what do you use now?
Back to Prince Syn Gut Multifiliment and Gosen OG Sheep Micro. Also using Wilson Hollow Core.

Valjean
12-29-2009, 03:29 PM
Yet, you keep ignoring everyone here that keep saying that K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are STIFF and have caused them arm/shoulder problems. No, I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about these strings. :-?
You do this each time, don't you? The issue isn't, it cannot be, whether one disapproves of K-Gut Pro AT ALL. Nor is it about whether anyone else can call it STIFF. It's about whether doing either of those automatically says they can agree with the claim that K-Gut Pro *causes* TE. No, it doesn't. In fact, you yourself admit that you've never sought to determine what else could have caused your TE, seen a doctor to confirm your condition and its cause, and so on.

By the way, ignoring the feedback section, the USRSA playtesters, and yes, even the TT search function--and you ALWAYS do it--shows how little you're influenced by what people in here and elsewhere ACTUALLY think about the string, except as they can be made to appear in agreement with what you hold to.

Not even all of the eight you cite agree that the string is even stiff, what they do in fact complain of can be marked down as mere discomfort that could be improved on, and more than one suspects their selected tension is the true culprit.

By the way, stop discouraging anyone you agree with from *reading*, too, would you? It's unseemly, rude even.

raygo
12-29-2009, 03:37 PM
it is a unique string. i enjoyed hitting with it a few years ago. under the radar for sure as it's been around a long time. i'm not even sure if TF still makes promix, do they?

It's still on their website, but since it's a few years old already it might be put to pasture soon--why does this happen to everything I like? I just found this string!

Looks like it might be time stock up...grr. :mad:

TF Promix doesn't get much attention, but its a very soft poly in the same vein as "Sonic Pro" or "Cyber Blue".

I was curious about Sonic Pro since it's another multi-poly, haven't tried CB, either. The shops here only sell the big brands, so I'm curious about all the 'sleeper' strings out there. Might have to switch if ProMix is indeed finished.

Valjean
12-29-2009, 03:40 PM
while BP may a bit enthusiastic in his dislike of k-gut his point of view is good to have out there. his experience with the string may be a unique one and not fit in with the standard reviews but each persons experience is different. even if he is the only one with arm issues with k-gut/pro it might be of benefit to someone reading this.
It might, if his were sincere or factual and not just self-promotion. He is no mere iconoclast; he thinks you shouldn't read or think about strings, just feel them. What's more, he plainly believes those who can't agree with his view are being prevented from it by reading they do, as well as when sinews and nerves are corrupted from association with lesser choices than his, which then mislead them.

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 05:21 PM
You do this each time, don't you? The issue isn't, it cannot be, whether one disapproves of K-Gut Pro AT ALL. Nor is it about whether anyone else can call it STIFF. It's about whether doing either of those automatically says they can agree with the claim that K-Gut Pro *causes* TE. No, it doesn't. In fact, you yourself admit that you've never sought to determine what else could have caused your TE, seen a doctor to confirm your condition and its cause, and so on.

By the way, ignoring the feedback section, the USRSA playtesters, and yes, even the TT search function--and you ALWAYS do it--shows how little you're influenced by what people in here and elsewhere ACTUALLY think about the string, except as they can be made to appear in agreement with what you hold to.

Not even all of the eight you cite agree that the string is even stiff, what they do in fact complain of can be marked down as mere discomfort that could be improved on, and more than one suspects their selected tension is the true culprit.

By the way, stop discouraging anyone you agree with from *reading*, too, would you? It's unseemly, rude even.
Um..I don't use the TT search function? How do you think I found all of those quotes?

I know a heck of a lot about tennis elbow because I had it 7 years ago, so I know EXACTLY what caused the tennis elbow, NO ands, ifs, or buts. I've done extensive research on tennis elbow and know the difference between a stiff string and a soft one since I've been hitting with tons of different strings over the past 35 years. I also know what causes tennis elbow. Heck, I probably know more about tennis elbow at this point than most doctors do!

YES, I KNOW that K-Gut Pro caused my tennis elbow. There is NO DOUBT in my mind! I have been extremely careful in doing everything I can to avoid tennis elbow over the past 7 years, EXCEPT trying K-Gut Pro. I could feel the harshness and stiffness as soon as I hit the first ball. Much harsher and stiffer than even plain full OG Sheep Micro.

Oh, and did you miss the quote where someone said that they could use another multi for 30 days in a row without any pain but tried K-Gut Pro and his arm was in pain for days?

Let me ask you this: Have you ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight machine? If so, did the weight drop at all when you released it? Now, feel may be subjective, but whether a weight drops is not! Are you saying that I imagined the weight not dropping at all just like when I string a poly? I started stringing on a drop weight machine well over 30 years ago. I think I know when the weight drops and when it doesn't budge even a millimeter. Even with OG Sheep Micro, its resiliency will cause the weight to drop by maybe 10-12 inches. Sometimes I have to even ratchet the weight a second time and drop again to stretch the string some more. With K-Gut Pro, the drop was ZERO! The string has zero resiliency! That, my friend, is NOT subjective, but a FACT!

And, yes, for all I know, most of those people in the feedback section are regular poly users, so of course they don't find K-Gut Pro to feel much stiffer. But even poly users agree that it's not soft but on the stiffer side.

BreakPoint
12-29-2009, 05:22 PM
It might, if his were sincere or factual and not just self-promotion. He is no mere iconoclast; he thinks you shouldn't read or think about strings, just feel them, and plainly believes those who can't agree with his view when they do are being prevented from it by reading they do and sinews and nerves corrupted by association with lesser choices than his, which then mislead them.
Do you work for the USRSA?

"Self-promotion"? What am I promoting about myself? The fact that I'm injured, lame, and can't play tennis due to tennis elbow caused by a string? Great "self-promotion", huh?

And ALL of my statements about K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are 100% sincere and factual. Don't you think I'd much rather be out playing tennis than sitting here complaining about some stupid string?

mikeler
12-29-2009, 07:07 PM
Breakpoint and I both agree that the USRSA ratings are useful, but not gospel. I used Gosen synthetic gut 17 a few months ago and my golfer's elbow flared up after that 2 set match. The ratings would not support such an event since the week before I played a 3 set match in the same weather conditions/balls with Gamma synthetic gut 16 (higher stiffness rating) against the same opponent and had little soreness afterwards.

I've been on the sidelines most of the last 2 months, so I have been using the USRSA tables to research strings on the lower end of the stiffness rating. Before I go to the expense of natural gut, I'm going to try some multis with stiffness ratings close to natural gut.

Richie Rich
12-30-2009, 04:39 AM
Breakpoint and I both agree that the USRSA ratings are useful, but not gospel. I used Gosen synthetic gut 17 a few months ago and my golfer's elbow flared up after that 2 set match. The ratings would not support such an event since the week before I played a 3 set match in the same weather conditions/balls with Gamma synthetic gut 16 (higher stiffness rating) against the same opponent and had little soreness afterwards.

I've been on the sidelines most of the last 2 months, so I have been using the USRSA tables to research strings on the lower end of the stiffness rating. Before I go to the expense of natural gut, I'm going to try some multis with stiffness ratings close to natural gut.

i agree. the USRSA ratings, like anything else, just another data point to help you filter what might work for you. they let you know what you are likely to expect from a string but you still won't 100% know until you put it in your frame at your tension and see how it works for you.

Valjean
12-30-2009, 11:55 AM
Um..I don't use the TT search function? How do you think I found all of those quotes?

I know a heck of a lot about tennis elbow because I had it 7 years ago, so I know EXACTLY what caused the tennis elbow, NO ands, ifs, or buts. I've done extensive research on tennis elbow and know the difference between a stiff string and a soft one since I've been hitting with tons of different strings over the past 35 years. I also know what causes tennis elbow. Heck, I probably know more about tennis elbow at this point than most doctors do!

YES, I KNOW that K-Gut Pro caused my tennis elbow. There is NO DOUBT in my mind! I have been extremely careful in doing everything I can to avoid tennis elbow over the past 7 years, EXCEPT trying K-Gut Pro. I could feel the harshness and stiffness as soon as I hit the first ball. Much harsher and stiffer than even plain full OG Sheep Micro.

Oh, and did you miss the quote where someone said that they could use another multi for 30 days in a row without any pain but tried K-Gut Pro and his arm was in pain for days?

Let me ask you this: Have you ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight machine? If so, did the weight drop at all when you released it? Now, feel may be subjective, but whether a weight drops is not! Are you saying that I imagined the weight not dropping at all just like when I string a poly? I started stringing on a drop weight machine well over 30 years ago. I think I know when the weight drops and when it doesn't budge even a millimeter. Even with OG Sheep Micro, its resiliency will cause the weight to drop by maybe 10-12 inches. Sometimes I have to even ratchet the weight a second time and drop again to stretch the string some more. With K-Gut Pro, the drop was ZERO! The string has zero resiliency! That, my friend, is NOT subjective, but a FACT!

And, yes, for all I know, most of those people in the feedback section are regular poly users, so of course they don't find K-Gut Pro to feel much stiffer. But even poly users agree that it's not soft but on the stiffer side.
Actually, you don't even "know" what role a tennis string can play in bringing on TE, did you know that? No one knows it. Moreover, it cannot even known what part of the arm is responsible for the TE when TE first appears. This is how one noted TE specialist insists on treating shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, wrist and hand when TE strikes, and why an examination of stroke technique is even called for. As you point out, to be so sure as you have been literally now requires that you believe and know more about TE than the entire medical profession combined.... How likely is that, to you?

Valjean
12-30-2009, 11:59 AM
Breakpoint and I both agree that the USRSA ratings are useful, but not gospel.....
There is no one here who is going to disagree with that--and anyone who ever did--insofar as you mean these measurements don't often add up for play itself. And that's not what we're talking about too, though, in here now, did you know it?

Valjean
12-30-2009, 12:02 PM
Do you work for the USRSA?

"Self-promotion"? What am I promoting about myself? The fact that I'm injured, lame, and can't play tennis due to tennis elbow caused by a string? Great "self-promotion", huh?

And ALL of my statements about K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are 100% sincere and factual. Don't you think I'd much rather be out playing tennis than sitting here complaining about some stupid string?
You bring your own context in here, even quote yourself, and ban every other source contradicting you from consideration for low motives. Does that add up to you?

BreakPoint
12-30-2009, 12:09 PM
Actually, you don't even "know" what role a tennis string can play in bringing on TE, did you know that? No one knows it. Moreover, it cannot even known what part of the arm is responsible for the TE when TE first appears. This is how one noted TE specialist insists on treating shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, wrist and hand when TE strikes, and why an examination of stroke technique is even called for. As you point out, to be so sure as you have been literally now requires that you believe and know more about TE than the entire medical profession combined.... How likely is that, to you?
How about this? I know. I probably know as much or more about TE than some doctors that have never experienced TE themselves and who don't play tennis.

When you use the same racquet, the same strokes, play the same frequency, on the same surface for many years, and the only thing that changed were the strings, then the cause is the strings. By not using the strings, I didn't even have a hint of TE. When the string feels harsh and stiff and every time you hit the ball you can feel it tearing your elbow tendon, it is the strings causing your TE. I can't think of anything else in this world that's more black and white and clear.

Here's a list of things that can cause TE from playing tennis (in no particular order):

1. Poor technique
2. Old, brittle, weak elbow tendons
3. Overuse
4. Stiff and/or light and/or extra long racquets.
5. Smaller racquet heads and denser string patterns
6. Stiff, unforgiving, and less resilient strings.

Not an exhaustive list but I'd say these are the main causes of the great majority of people who get TE from playing tennis. This is also why so many people experience elbow problems after switching to poly strings when nothing else has changed.

mikeler
12-30-2009, 12:10 PM
There is no one here who is going to disagree with that--and anyone who ever did--insofar as you mean these measurements don't often add up for play itself. And that's not what we're talking about too, though, in here now, did you know it?


Lots of stiffness numbers being thrown around in this thread so I just thought I'd bring it up. You and BP can go back to your flame war now...

BreakPoint
12-30-2009, 12:12 PM
You bring your own context in here, even quote yourself, and ban every other source contradicting you from consideration for low motives. Does that add up to you?
Huh? "quote myself"? "low motives"? Where? :confused:

OTOH, you obviously have some vested interest in the USRSA or else you wouldn't always defend them so vehemently all the time.

JackB1
12-30-2009, 12:46 PM
When the string feels harsh and stiff and every time you hit the ball you can feel it tearing your elbow tendon, it is the strings causing your TE. I can't think of anything else in this world that's more black and white and clear.

My experience is different. I tried a soft poly (Sonic Pro) and it felt fine while hitting, but I feel the pain afterwards after I am done playing. It's weird how the stringbed feels nice and soft while playing, but then you get TE afterwards.

Valjean
12-30-2009, 05:46 PM
How about this? I know. I probably know as much or more about TE than some doctors that have never experienced TE themselves and who don't play tennis.

When you use the same racquet, the same strokes, play the same frequency, on the same surface for many years, and the only thing that changed were the strings, then the cause is the strings. By not using the strings, I didn't even have a hint of TE. When the string feels harsh and stiff and every time you hit the ball you can feel it tearing your elbow tendon, it is the strings causing your TE. I can't think of anything else in this world that's more black and white and clear.

Here's a list of things that can cause TE from playing tennis (in no particular order):

1. Poor technique
2. Old, brittle, weak elbow tendons
3. Overuse
4. Stiff and/or light and/or extra long racquets.
5. Smaller racquet heads and denser string patterns
6. Stiff, unforgiving, and less resilient strings.

Not an exhaustive list but I'd say these are the main causes of the great majority of people who get TE from playing tennis. This is also why so many people experience elbow problems after switching to poly strings when nothing else has changed.
For someone who claims incomparable knowledge of TE, how is it you don't refer to it as the overuse injury it often is instead of something that comes on suddenly? This is the type someone of your years and experience is likely to develop and that type can be particularly hard to diagnose as it lacks specific causes. Similarly, overall strength can play a dominant role, which is how one pro trainer came to say the reason there is so little TE on the pro tours is the strength and conditioning work the players do. Do you know yours? Your approach to your own injury seems controlled by your taste in injury therapy rather than related to what you did. I still think your refusal to playtest NXT Tour next to K-Gut Pro reflects that.

Valjean
12-30-2009, 05:52 PM
Huh? "quote myself"? "low motives"? Where? :confused:

OTOH, you obviously have some vested interest in the USRSA or else you wouldn't always defend them so vehemently all the time.
To my knowledge the USRSA has never taken a position on whether K-Gut Pro causes TE, and whether string itself can do that. (For instance, what can account for the different pace at which TE comes on for different people, if it's the potent cause you seem to think it is?) Have they to you, though? How do they get involved, even, then?

BreakPoint
12-30-2009, 07:27 PM
To my knowledge the USRSA has never taken a position on whether K-Gut Pro causes TE, and whether string itself can do that. (For instance, what can account for the different pace at which TE comes on for different people, if it's the potent cause you seem to think it is?) Have they to you, though? How do they get involved, even, then?
Has the USRSA ever taken a position on whether ANY string causes TE, not just K-Gut Pro? Why would an organization that exists because of strings ever want to claim that strings can cause TE? Wouldn't that be like the tobacco industry voluntarily admitting that smoking can kill people?

People get TE at different rates because everyone's arms are different, their tendons are different, their ages are different, their strokes are different, their racquets are different, the frequency and amount they play are different, their level of play is different, their style of play is different (S&V or baseliner, etc.), their backhands are different (1HBH vs. 2HBH), and yes, they use different string set-ups at different tensions. Some people are also just less prone to TE than others, e.g., they have arms of steel, etc. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer nor at the same rate either but would you claim that smoking is not hazardous to your health?

BreakPoint
12-30-2009, 07:42 PM
For someone who claims incomparable knowledge of TE, how is it you don't refer to it as the overuse injury it often is instead of something that comes on suddenly? This is the type someone of your years and experience is likely to develop and that type can be particularly hard to diagnose as it lacks specific causes. Similarly, overall strength can play a dominant role, which is how one pro trainer came to say the reason there is so little TE on the pro tours is the strength and conditioning work the players do. Do you know yours? Your approach to your own injury seems controlled by your taste in injury therapy rather than related to what you did. I still think your refusal to playtest NXT Tour next to K-Gut Pro reflects that.
Are you kidding? TE and GE are VERY common amongst the pros. Del Potro had to retire during several tournaments this fall because of his elbow. Krajicek had to retire from tennis period because of TE. Sampras, Gasquet, Roddick, Nishikori, etc. have all had TE or GE. However, since most pros are very young, they would have to do a lot of damage before they get TE. And how many recreational players train and condition themselves as much as the pros do? How many pros are over the age of 40?

Yes, TE is an overuse injury, but you can also injury yourself suddenly. TE is a tear in your tendon and you can tear your tendon in a myriad of ways. I play a lot of tennis, but as long as I don't use a stiff string, I am fine and can play as much as I want for as long as I want. My elbow is always under stress when I play tennis but not enough to tear my tendon. I do overuse my elbow but not at the stress level required to tear the tendon. It takes a stiff string to do that. Just like you can put below the maximum number of people inside an elevator and it will work fine for a long time and will continue to work fine as long as you never overload it. But once you overload it by putting more than the maximum number of people in elevator and causing more stress to the cable system, you risk eventually having a failure. It may or may not happen right away, but the extra stress will more likely eventually cause it to fail than if you've never overloaded the elevator.

BreakPoint
12-31-2009, 12:38 AM
I still think your refusal to playtest NXT Tour next to K-Gut Pro reflects that.
Is this answer enough for you?

I'll admit it. I was suckered. I bought three sets of the stuff since I enjoyed NXT 17 and wanted to try an 18 in the NXT family. The NXT Tour has none of the qualities that I enjoyed in the regular NXT. The tour played very stiff and makes a weird sound when I hit. :(

Why would I want to play with another stiff, arm damaging string after my experience with K-Gut Pro? I'm not a masochist.

BTW, have you noticed that Wilson has dropped the price of K-Gut and K-Gut Pro to $16.95? Probably because of all the people that stopped buying it after it destroyed their arms.

Valjean
12-31-2009, 05:59 AM
Why would I want to play with another stiff, arm damaging string after my experience with K-Gut Pro? I'm not a masochist.....
Quite simply because NXT Tour preceded K-Gut Pro in the Wilson line and has a measured stiffness value considerably above K-Gut Pro. Can't you say it is stiffer than K-Gut Pro then? I wonder how you keep missing the point; can't keep the conversation in focus, it looks like to me.

Also of general interest for us now too might be how K-Gut got into all this since you've never claimed *it* gave you TE too.

Valjean
12-31-2009, 06:04 AM
Are you kidding? TE and GE are VERY common amongst the pros. Del Potro had to retire during several tournaments this fall because of his elbow. Krajicek had to retire from tennis period because of TE. Sampras, Gasquet, Roddick, Nishikori, etc. have all had TE or GE. However, since most pros are very young, they would have to do a lot of damage before they get TE. And how many recreational players train and condition themselves as much as the pros do? How many pros are over the age of 40?

Yes, TE is an overuse injury, but you can also injury yourself suddenly. TE is a tear in your tendon and you can tear your tendon in a myriad of ways. I play a lot of tennis, but as long as I don't use a stiff string, I am fine and can play as much as I want for as long as I want. My elbow is always under stress when I play tennis but not enough to tear my tendon. I do overuse my elbow but not at the stress level required to tear the tendon. It takes a stiff string to do that. Just like you can put below the maximum number of people inside an elevator and it will work fine for a long time and will continue to work fine as long as you never overload it. But once you overload it by putting more than the maximum number of people in elevator and causing more stress to the cable system, you risk eventually having a failure. It may or may not happen right away, but the extra stress will more likely eventually cause it to fail than if you've never overloaded the elevator.
You've had better experience with elevators, apparently. They're seemingly more readable for you too.

When I wrote little TE on the tours, I didn't expect you to respond as if I had said *none*.

Wait, I did too--you do that all the time too, over-represent what's said.

BreakPoint
12-31-2009, 12:45 PM
Quite simply because NXT Tour preceded K-Gut Pro in the Wilson line and has a measured stiffness value considerably above K-Gut Pro. Can't you say it is stiffer than K-Gut Pro then? I wonder how you keep missing the point; can't keep the conversation in focus, it looks like to me.
But those measured stiffness values are meaningless remember? They measured the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16 at 182 and Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 at 203 but I find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel significantly stiffer than OG Sheep Micro. So, to me, it's irrelevant what they measured NXT Tour's stiffness to be.

BTW, I even find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel stiffer than Wilson Stamina 16, which is rated at 219. I played with a few racquets strung with Stamina 16 for years with no elbow problems at all. Not even a twinge. In a blind test, there's no doubt that I would choose K-Gut Pro as the stiffer of the two. If I had to guess the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16, I would guess around 240.


Also of general interest for us now too might be how K-Gut got into all this since you've never claimed *it* gave you TE too.
I played with both at the same time. They are both stiff, but K-Gut Pro is the stiffer of the two. So since it plays and feels stiffer than K-Gut, it's logical to believe that K-Gut Pro was damaging my arm more than the K-Gut was.

BreakPoint
12-31-2009, 12:48 PM
You've had better experience with elevators, apparently. They're seemingly more readable for you too.

When I wrote little TE on the tours, I didn't expect you to respond as if I had said *none*.

Wait, I did too--you do that all the time too, over-represent what's said.
But it's not "little", it's rampant. So many pros get injured all the time and very often the injury is TE or GE. It would be even much worse if the pros kept playing past the age of 40.

Valjean
12-31-2009, 01:01 PM
But those measured stiffness values are meaningless remember?....

I played with both at the same time. They are both stiff, but K-Gut Pro is the stiffer of the two. So since it plays and feels stiffer than K-Gut, it's logical to believe that K-Gut Pro was damaging my arm more than the K-Gut was.
"Meaningless?" Have you answered yet (in another thread) where your "meaningless" comes from? Then, we could all share in your "meaning"--its "meaning" for you, that would be.

I'm still talking about your definition when I say you should report how you compare against those reported stiffness values, using something with supposed higher stiffness--why not the NXT Tour, Wilson's predecessor string, with its handy number--against your bete noire, K-Gut Pro.

I believe your threat to us was how K-Gut *as well*--though, strangely enough, previously you'd not told that you used it enough to tell--could give us all TE.

Still not conversing over how players using the same string--any one, polyester, what have you--did, and did not, experience arm discomfort, let alone TE? And how it's taken varying amounts of time/play to produce what they did experience? What kind of alarm does one give out *then*?

BreakPoint
12-31-2009, 02:12 PM
"Meaningless?" Have you answered yet (in another thread) where your "meaningless" comes from? Then, we could all share in your "meaning"--its "meaning" for you, that would be.

I'm still talking about your definition when I say you should report how you compare against those reported stiffness values, using something with supposed higher stiffness--why not the NXT Tour, Wilson's predecessor string, with its handy number--against your bete noire, K-Gut Pro.

I believe your threat to us was how K-Gut *as well*--though, strangely enough, previously you'd not told that you used it enough to tell--could give us all TE.

Still not conversing over how players using the same string--any one, polyester, what have you--did, and did not, experience arm discomfort, let alone TE? And how it's taken varying amounts of time/play to produce what they did experience? What kind of alarm does one give out *then*?
"Meaningless" = does not mean anything. When test results are inaccurate and not to be trusted, then they do not mean anything to me, i.e., "meaningless".

Come back to us after you've had several bouts of TE. Maybe only then you will actually start to understand.

Valjean
01-01-2010, 05:11 AM
"Meaningless" = does not mean anything. When test results are inaccurate and not to be trusted, then they do not mean anything to me, i.e., "meaningless".

Come back to us after you've had several bouts of TE. Maybe only then you will actually start to understand.
Come on, now; wander on over to that 2009 Members' Choice Awards thread and answer those related questions about identifying stiffness in play you've been ignoring. We'd all like to know just what you've been saying about that too: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=303624&page=2

JackB1
01-01-2010, 09:15 AM
I can't believe you guys are still arguing about K-Gut. Give it a rest!

Azzurri
01-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Yet, you keep ignoring everyone here that keep saying that K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are STIFF and have caused them arm/shoulder problems. No, I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about these strings. :-?

I love it! Valjean owned..again. thanks for sharing BP.

TenniseaWilliams
01-01-2010, 10:47 AM
Materials studies indicate a non-linear modulus (stress vs elongation) for tennis string. That is, a string could change stiffness (modulus) values relative to another based on stringing tension, swing speed of the player, hitting weight of the racquet hoop, etc.

Trying a string for yourself is the only real way to evaluate it, but the USRSA numbers are real measurements and do help. Insights that you gain from playtesting are obviously more specific to your situation, but might not be as transferable to others, and certainly not in as general a way as BP proposes.


Both. It even behaves like a poly when you string it, i.e., on a drop weight stringer, the weight doesn't drop at all so there's no resiliency in K-Gut and K-Gut Pro, just like with polys. K-Gut Pro feels and plays as stiff as any poly I've ever tried. It also doesn't move very much in the stringbed, just like a poly.

Slow stretching on a stringing machine is not the same as a fast stretch from impact. Not even close.


I know a heck of a lot about tennis elbow because I had it 7 years ago, so I know EXACTLY what caused the tennis elbow, NO ands, ifs, or buts. I've done extensive research on tennis elbow and know the difference between a stiff string and a soft one since I've been hitting with tons of different strings over the past 35 years. I also know what causes tennis elbow. Heck, I probably know more about tennis elbow at this point than most doctors do!

YES, I KNOW that K-Gut Pro caused my tennis elbow. There is NO DOUBT in my mind! I have been extremely careful in doing everything I can to avoid tennis elbow over the past 7 years, EXCEPT trying K-Gut Pro. I could feel the harshness and stiffness as soon as I hit the first ball. Much harsher and stiffer than even plain full OG Sheep Micro.

...

Let me ask you this: Have you ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight machine? If so, did the weight drop at all when you released it? Now, feel may be subjective, but whether a weight drops is not! Are you saying that I imagined the weight not dropping at all just like when I string a poly? I started stringing on a drop weight machine well over 30 years ago. I think I know when the weight drops and when it doesn't budge even a millimeter. Even with OG Sheep Micro, its resiliency will cause the weight to drop by maybe 10-12 inches. Sometimes I have to even ratchet the weight a second time and drop again to stretch the string some more. With K-Gut Pro, the drop was ZERO! The string has zero resiliency! That, my friend, is NOT subjective, but a FACT!

...


These claims to authority are very questionable, as are the facts and the conclusion.


Has the USRSA ever taken a position on whether ANY string causes TE, not just K-Gut Pro? Why would an organization that exists because of strings ever want to claim that strings can cause TE? Wouldn't that be like the tobacco industry voluntarily admitting that smoking can kill people?

People get TE at different rates because everyone's arms are different, their tendons are different, their ages are different, their strokes are different, their racquets are different, the frequency and amount they play are different, their level of play is different, their style of play is different (S&V or baseliner, etc.), their backhands are different (1HBH vs. 2HBH), and yes, they use different string set-ups at different tensions. Some people are also just less prone to TE than others, e.g., they have arms of steel, etc. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer nor at the same rate either but would you claim that smoking is not hazardous to your health?

Even in this questionable analogy, light cigarettes didn't have an impact on cancer rates vs stiffer ones. You also seem to claim here that soft strings won't give anyone TE/GE, and the USRSA is somehow gaining something by not complaining about stiff strings. The USRSA should be telling people to abstain from hitting the ball at all? Maybe I am reading too much into this.


...

Yes, TE is an overuse injury, but you can also injury yourself suddenly. TE is a tear in your tendon and you can tear your tendon in a myriad of ways. I play a lot of tennis, but as long as I don't use a stiff string, I am fine and can play as much as I want for as long as I want. My elbow is always under stress when I play tennis but not enough to tear my tendon. I do overuse my elbow but not at the stress level required to tear the tendon. It takes a stiff string to do that. Just like you can put below the maximum number of people inside an elevator and it will work fine for a long time and will continue to work fine as long as you never overload it. But once you overload it by putting more than the maximum number of people in elevator and causing more stress to the cable system, you risk eventually having a failure. It may or may not happen right away, but the extra stress will more likely eventually cause it to fail than if you've never overloaded the elevator.

In this analogy, k-Gut must be a person that weighs much more on the cable than on a scale. Or maybe K-Gut suffers from a syndrome forcing him/her to leap onto elevators, or jump up and down during the ride, thus increasing the stress on the cable.


But those measured stiffness values are meaningless remember? They measured the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16 at 182 and Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 at 203 but I find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel significantly stiffer than OG Sheep Micro. So, to me, it's irrelevant what they measured NXT Tour's stiffness to be.

BTW, I even find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel stiffer than Wilson Stamina 16, which is rated at 219. I played with a few racquets strung with Stamina 16 for years with no elbow problems at all. Not even a twinge. In a blind test, there's no doubt that I would choose K-Gut Pro as the stiffer of the two. If I had to guess the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16, I would guess around 240.

I played with both at the same time. They are both stiff, but K-Gut Pro is the stiffer of the two. So since it plays and feels stiffer than K-Gut, it's logical to believe that K-Gut Pro was damaging my arm more than the K-Gut was.

Does BP believe that a single number can describe the stiffness of a string, and that it would hold true for everyone? Here he doesn't care what was measured, and then that K-Gut Pro should be rated much higher than was measured. Confusing!

BreakPoint
01-01-2010, 01:32 PM
Materials studies indicate a non-linear modulus (stress vs elongation) for tennis string. That is, a string could change stiffness (modulus) values relative to another based on stringing tension, swing speed of the player, hitting weight of the racquet hoop, etc.
So are you saying that someone can think ALU feels softer than NRG2 while another person thinks the opposite? Highly unlikely. I think almost everyone will agree that ALU is the stiffer of the two.

Trying a string for yourself is the only real way to evaluate it, but the USRSA numbers are real measurements and do help. Insights that you gain from playtesting are obviously more specific to your situation, but might not be as transferable to others, and certainly not in as general a way as BP proposes.
Yes, playing with the string yourself is the best way to evaluate the string.

Slow stretching on a stringing machine is not the same as a fast stretch from impact. Not even close.
So you're saying that a poly that doesn't stretch nor budge at all on a drop weight machine will all of a sudden stretch like a rubber band when you hit the ball? Sorry, but that's impossible! Not unless you stick the string in an oven when you hit the ball. Any string that stretches a lot while you're stringing it will be more resilient when it hits the ball than a string that doesn't stretch at all when you're stringing it. That's why poly doesn't stretch when you drop the weight when stringing it - because it has very little resiliency (i.e., it's very stiff), and you can feel this stiffness when you hit the ball. That's why poly hardly moves in your stringbed and why people complain that poly is harder to string than softer strings are. Guess what? K-Gut Pro hardly moved in my stringbed and didn't stretch at all when I strung it on my drop weight machine, and yes, I felt this stiffness the first time a ball hit the stringbed, just like with a poly.

Even in this questionable analogy, light cigarettes didn't have an impact on cancer rates vs stiffer ones. You also seem to claim here that soft strings won't give anyone TE/GE, and the USRSA is somehow gaining something by not complaining about stiff strings. The USRSA should be telling people to abstain from hitting the ball at all? Maybe I am reading too much into this.
Exactly! And softer strings don't give people TE/GE at a higher rate than stiffer strings do. Strings are just one of several factors that impact the likelihood of developing TE/GE as I listed above, and you're more likely to develop TE/GE with a stiffer string than a softer string, all else being equal. That's why so many people complain about getting TE/GE after switching from a soft string to a stiff string like poly. Have you heard of people complaining about arm problems after switching from a poly to a soft string, all else being equal? Not really. Most people find more arm relief when they switch from a stiffer to a softer string.

In this analogy, k-Gut must be a person that weighs much more on the cable than on a scale. Or maybe K-Gut suffers from a syndrome forcing him/her to leap onto elevators, or jump up and down during the ride, thus increasing the stress on the cable.
Stress = force, in simple terms. More weight = more force = more stress.

Stiffer strings like poly or K-Gut Pro transmit more torque to your elbow. Torque = force. Thus, more torque = more stress.

People cause more stress on the elevator system due to their weight. More weight = more force = more stress on the elevator's cable system.

Tell me, would you feel safer getting into an elevator with ten 300lb+ sumo wrestlers or ten 50lb kids?


Does BP believe that a single number can describe the stiffness of a string, and that it would hold true for everyone? Here he doesn't care what was measured, and then that K-Gut Pro should be rated much higher than was measured. Confusing!
No, I don't believe in those numbers at all. But if I was asked by someone who takes these numbers as gospel what I feel the stiffness number of K-Gut Pro should be relative to other strings, like Stamina which has a number of 219, I'd say around 240. Why was this number my guess? Well, I feel that K-Gut Pro feels noticeably stiffer than Stamina and that it's about as stiff as some polys that are around the 240 range.

BreakPoint
01-01-2010, 05:16 PM
I'm another one who didn't like MSV Hex. Strung a full bed at 55lbs on my RDX500 MP - felt as stiff as a board, with next to no feel at all. It just felt so 'plastic'.

Horrible.


KGut Pro feels too stiff compared with MSV Hex 1.18. If I had my eyes closed I'd think that the KGut Pro must be the poly.

K Gut Pro feels noticeably stiffer than the MSV..
Hmmm.....very interesting. K-Gut Pro feels even stiffer than a poly that feels "as stiff as a board"?

I'd agree with that. :)

Valjean
01-02-2010, 08:56 AM
Hmmm.....very interesting. K-Gut Pro feels even stiffer than a poly that feels "as stiff as a board"?

I'd agree with that. :)
If someone else agreed the sun came up, would that suffice too? The point isn't whether there is someone to agree with you about something else, and about something irrelevant to boot.

On another tendril in this matter of what your actual point is, I guess we've got to import the question(s) I referred to that you've been ignoring, leaving us with the impression that you have no real interest in helping out in here, just in yourself:

Another reason why USRSA ratings are not to be trusted and should be taken with a big grain of salt. Their string stiffness ratings are often way off.

First, USRSA does not rate string stiffness. It does, however, measure string stiffness. Big difference.

Second, how do you know the USRSA stiffness measurements are way off? That is, against what are you comparing them?

Third, why do you trust these other (non-USRSA) stiffness measurements so much?

BreakPoint
01-02-2010, 01:29 PM
If someone else agreed the sun came up, would that suffice too? The point isn't whether there is someone to agree with you about something else, and about something irrelevant to boot.

On another tendril in this matter of what your actual point is, I guess we've got to import the question(s) I referred to that you've been ignoring, leaving us with the impression that you have no real interest in helping out in here, just in yourself:
Newsflash: My arm is the best measure of stiffness known to mankind. The human arm cannot be surpassed for tactile feel by ANY machine.

It seems that just about everyone on this board agrees that K-Gut Pro is very stiff. I really don't care what the product feedback or USRSA pages say. Most people only bother to leave customer feedback on a product if they liked it. Just read almost any customer feedback page for racquets. They are overwhelmingly positive for just about ANY racquet, even the really bad ones. Why? People who don't like a racquet get rid of it or stop using it and don't bother to go to the product page for that racquet. Only people who fall in love with a racquet or worship it will bother to go back to the product page to leave feedback. Same with strings. Most people who don't like a string will just stop using it and not bother with it anymore. For example, I hate K-Gut Pro but I never left any feedback in the customer feedback section. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

BTW, you never answered if you have ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight stringer? Why don't you string K-Gut Pro and a poly back-to-back on a dropweight stringer and tell us if you notice any difference in how much the weight drops. Until you do, you haven't got a clue how little resiliency K-Gut Pro has.

Valjean
01-02-2010, 02:50 PM
Newsflash: My arm is the best measure of stiffness known to mankind. The human arm cannot be surpassed for tactile feel by ANY machine.

It seems that just about everyone on this board agrees that K-Gut Pro is very stiff. I really don't care what the product feedback or USRSA pages say. Most people only bother to leave customer feedback on a product if they liked it. Just read almost any customer feedback page for racquets. They are overwhelmingly positive for just about ANY racquet, even the really bad ones. Why? People who don't like a racquet get rid of it or stop using it and don't bother to go to the product page for that racquet. Only people who fall in love with a racquet or worship it will bother to go back to the product page to leave feedback. Same with strings. Most people who don't like a string will just stop using it and not bother with it anymore. For example, I hate K-Gut Pro but I never left any feedback in the customer feedback section. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

BTW, you never answered if you have ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight stringer? Why don't you string K-Gut Pro and a poly back-to-back on a dropweight stringer and tell us if you notice any difference in how much the weight drops. Until you do, you haven't got a clue how little resiliency K-Gut Pro has.
What you are is a complete contradiction in here, inasmuch as you aimlessly provide personal testimony of a personal condition, maintain that any test of a string's suitability remains on that level, yet want to insist your experience with the K-Guts are for all time and anyone who tries them out. You go farther out on that limb you are on, claiming for example that anyone who cannot agree with you about two strings you do approve of, Hollow Core and/or PSGM, has to have been tricked/deceived into it. The claim that just about anyone on this board agrees K-Gut Pro is *stiff* has as much relevance to the above as saying Wilson made them, since private responses, as you have seen with HC and PSGM, will vary, and the claim that K-Gut Pro may "feel stiff" (whatever that is to whom you speak of, despite what string they are coming from, what equipment they own, etc.) to some is not the one you made. Furthermore, what are you basing that on? Threads you are on, where just a very few people comment, and that half the time from frustration at where this is going and confusion about what's said. As of now over 1100 people have viewed this thread; next you'll come out claiming they "voted" too!

And of course you continue to avoid establishing a reader poll to really find out where things stand.

Then we have the obstacle for you that no one yet knows just what combination of events have generated your TE, which is why any onset of it typically warrants individual diagnosis. All you have been contending is reducible, until you get one, to a coincidence.

This is when you typically transcend the tennis realm and ask everyone to believe you know more about medical issues than the medical profession does.

When I string K-Gut Pro it doesn't show the same tensile strength as poly does--not that it should, though, which seems to be your point of view. Instead of avoiding a question put to you with another one, though, how about answering the ones above? Why should we listen, otherwise, when you won't establish a bona fides to do so?

BreakPoint
01-02-2010, 03:30 PM
What you are is a complete contradiction in here, inasmuch as you aimlessly provide personal testimony of a personal condition, maintain that any test of a string's suitability remains on that level, yet want to insist your experience with the K-Guts are for all time and anyone who tries them out. You go farther out on that limb you are on, claiming for example that anyone who cannot agree with you about two strings you do approve of, Hollow Core and/or PSGM, has to have been tricked/deceived into it. The claim that just about anyone on this board agrees K-Gut Pro is *stiff* has as much relevance to the above as saying Wilson made them, since private responses, as you have seen with HC and PSGM, will vary, and the claim that K-Gut Pro may "feel stiff" (whatever that is to whom you speak of, despite what string they are coming from, what equipment they own, etc.) to some is not the one you made. Furthermore, what are you basing that on? Threads you are on, where just a very few people comment, and that half the time from frustration at where this is going and confusion about what's said. As of now over 1100 people have viewed this thread; next you'll come out claiming they "voted" too!

And of course you continue to avoid establishing a reader poll to really find out where things stand.

Then we have the obstacle for you that no one yet knows just what combination of events have generated your TE, which is why any onset of it typically warrants individual diagnosis. All you have been contending is reducible, until you get one, to a coincidence.

This is when you typically transcend the tennis realm and ask everyone to believe you know more about medical issues than the medical profession does.

When I string K-Gut Pro it doesn't show the same tensile strength as poly does--not that it should, though, which seems to be your point of view. Instead of avoiding a question put to you with another one, though, how about answering the ones above? Why should we listen, otherwise, when you won't establish a bona fides to do so?
Because when the weight doesn't drop even a millimeter, that is NOT subjective at all. It is NOT based on anyone's "feel". It is TOTALLY 100% OBJECTIVE! If the weight does not budge, the string is STIFF! Period! No ands, ifs, nor buts. It is not based upon anyone's interpretation, experience, nor tactile feel. It is based on visual fact. Thus, I really don't need anyone's opinions to corroborate what I already know to be a true 100% fact: K-Gut Pro is as stiff as many polys. A fact that for some reason you cannot seem to accept even though you've never strung K-Gut Pro on a dropweight stringer. Maybe that's why you have such low credibility here?

Now, get back to us after you've strung K-Gut Pro and a poly on a drop weight stringer back-to-back.

Oh, and there was no "combination" of anything that caused my TE. Everything else was EXACTLY the same. The ONLY thing that changed was the strings. A stiff string that I normally would have cut out in 10 minutes, which is why I've avoided getting TE for so long. My rule is: If it feels stiff, cut it out immediately. My big mistake was not abiding by this rule with K-Gut Pro. The result? Tennis elbow. It's not exactly rocker science, dude. I have a degree in mechanical engineering. This is simple stress and strain, force and torque stuff. My arm is very sensitive to the stiffness of strings.

And tennis elbow in a tennis player is caused by tennis. What does a doctor who doesn't play tennis and has never had TE really know about what caused the player's TE? Does he even know the difference in stress felt by the elbow tendon between a slice backhand and a topspin backhand? How about the difference between longer and shorter racquets, or smaller and bigger heads, or lighter or heavier racquets as they relate to causing TE? Does he know what the pain of TE feels like and exactly when and where it's felt and when doing what activities?

Valjean
01-02-2010, 04:26 PM
Your alleged dropweight experience against everyone else's? Your arm against mine? Your background as a mechanical engineer versus that of a medical doctor, even the profession as whole, when dealing with his arena? And then you think you've contributed to anyone's welfare?

When you won't so much as test your arm employing other strings of purported higher stiffness in a comparison test and seek medical evaluation to test you out? Troll on. You must not know, then, that TE can be contracted by those who have never so much as *lifted* a tennis racquet.

First, USRSA does not rate string stiffness. It does, however, measure string stiffness. Big difference.

Second, how do you know the USRSA stiffness measurements are way off? That is, against what are you comparing them?

Third, why do you trust these other (non-USRSA) stiffness measurements so much?
And, one might argue, why should we too, when the experience you claim to have had is so specifically you, and cannot rest on anything more *substantial* than your frequent restatement and/or verbal recasting of it. Tiresome, too.

BreakPoint
01-02-2010, 04:49 PM
Your dropweight against everyone else's? Your arm against mine? Your background as a mechanical engineer versus that of a medical doctor, even the profession as whole, when dealing with his arena? And then you think you've contributed to anyone's welfare?

When you won't so much as test your arm employing other strings of higher stiffness in a comparison test? Troll on.
Um...because the force of gravity where I am is different than the force of gravity everywhere else? :rolleyes: ALL dropweight stringers react the same when you drop the weight because the only force in play is gravity!

Yes, I have tested other strings that have a higher stiffness rating than K-Gut Pro. I've told you that many times already. I guess you just don't like to comprehend what you read? I've played with Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 (203), Prince Syn Gut Multi (196) and Wilson Stamina (219) for many years without any arm problems at all. ALL feel much softer and less harsh than K-Gut Pro (182) does. In fact, PSGM feels like a hot knife through butter while K-Gut Pro feels like a brick wall in comparison. I've also played with some polys (e.g., PLII 17g) that have higher stiffness ratings (229) than K-Gut Pro does and even those felt softer than K-Gut Pro.

Now, we're all still waiting for you to string up a set of K-Gut Pro on a dropweight stringer and then string up a set of poly. You'll see no difference in the drop, i.e., none.

rogernext
01-02-2010, 09:48 PM
Feel/Durability: Gaucho > Volkl Powerfiber > Wilson Hollow Core

Valjean
01-03-2010, 05:19 AM
Um...because the force of gravity where I am is different than the force of gravity everywhere else? :rolleyes: ALL dropweight stringers react the same when you drop the weight because the only force in play is gravity!

Yes, I have tested other strings that have a higher stiffness rating than K-Gut Pro. I've told you that many times already. I guess you just don't like to comprehend what you read? I've played with Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 (203), Prince Syn Gut Multi (196) and Wilson Stamina (219) for many years without any arm problems at all. ALL feel much softer and less harsh than K-Gut Pro (182) does. In fact, PSGM feels like a hot knife through butter while K-Gut Pro feels like a brick wall in comparison. I've also played with some polys (e.g., PLII 17g) that have higher stiffness ratings (229) than K-Gut Pro does and even those felt softer than K-Gut Pro.

Now, we're all still waiting for you to string up a set of K-Gut Pro on a dropweight stringer and then string up a set of poly. You'll see no difference in the drop, i.e., none.
You just turn things around, a practice showing little intent to be helpful. How is it you resist comparison testing of K-Gut Pro and NXT Tour, though, too--which is what I have said--strings made by the same company, with K-Gut Pro meant specifically to improve on what NXT Tour did right? And for dropweight testing--how do I validate what worth it has? Do you have related data for more strings than the one you care about? What does your dropweight tell you overall about USRSA testing, too? In fact, the USRSA at one time tried a similar approach, attaching a 60-lb. weight to various strings and recording how much they stretched then. By now, they've proceeded on. Do you want to know how they decided to?

By the way, do you think anyone will agree with you now that each of the strings you cite above plays "softer" than K-Gut Pro?

What people in here are waiting to hear, silly, is why they should listen to your frantic intent just to have them buy into what you sell--just to see if you can get away with this, and what crank interpretation some will buy into when doing so.

In the meantime: "Research by [Rod] Cross at the University of Sydney has shown that [even] pro tennis players have much less feel for strings than they think, and tend to overestimate their importance. A study published last year found that 90% of professionals could not feel a 6 lb. (2.7 kg) difference in the tension of strings in two different frames — even though most professionals insist on exacting string specifications for their matches." Now, I wonder what this should mean for telling the difference between "stiffness" from manufacture and that due to tension, as well as how one knows the difference from play. At that point, we can come to how sensitive individual players do get, and what their comments about the string in play can actually be referring to. That should interest you.

Coincidences, that's all you have going for you. And, as I have shown to you, there are myriad ways to explain away those. Speaking loudly each time you're contradicted isn't going to win you the adherents you appear to crave, though; I wouldn't be betting on that for any reason.

DrewRafter8
01-03-2010, 10:06 AM
How about this? I know. I probably know as much or more about TE than some doctors that have never experienced TE themselves and who don't play tennis.

When you use the same racquet, the same strokes, play the same frequency, on the same surface for many years, and the only thing that changed were the strings, then the cause is the strings. By not using the strings, I didn't even have a hint of TE. When the string feels harsh and stiff and every time you hit the ball you can feel it tearing your elbow tendon, it is the strings causing your TE. I can't think of anything else in this world that's more black and white and clear.

Here's a list of things that can cause TE from playing tennis (in no particular order):

1. Poor technique
2. Old, brittle, weak elbow tendons
3. Overuse
4. Stiff and/or light and/or extra long racquets.
5. Smaller racquet heads and denser string patterns
6. Stiff, unforgiving, and less resilient strings.

Not an exhaustive list but I'd say these are the main causes of the great majority of people who get TE from playing tennis. This is also why so many people experience elbow problems after switching to poly strings when nothing else has changed.

I'm having some arm pain and two MRT's have now suggested that this is because I play with a 27.5 frame. Where do I go to get more information on this?

Valjean
01-03-2010, 10:22 AM
Why not try over here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 12:55 PM
You just turn things around, a practice showing little intent to be helpful. How is it you resist comparison testing of K-Gut Pro and NXT Tour, though, too--which is what I have said--strings made by the same company, with K-Gut Pro meant specifically to improve on what NXT Tour did right?
Isn't Wilson Stamina made by the same company (not that the company that makes the string has anything to do with anything)? Stamina has a the same stiffness rating as NXT Tour (219) and I think it feels and plays significantly softer than K-Gut Pro. So case closed! And how do you know K-Gut Pro is supposed to replace NXT Tour? If that were the case, why is Wilson phasing out K-Gut Pro and raising the price on NXT Tour? :-?


And for dropweight testing--how do I validate what worth it has? Do you have related data for more strings than the one you care about? What does your dropweight tell you overall about USRSA testing, too? In fact, the USRSA at one time tried a similar approach, attaching a 60-lb. weight to various strings and recording how much they stretched then. By now, they've proceeded on. Do you want to know how they decided to?
Um...because the only strings that I have ever strung in my life where the weight did not drop at all have ALL been polys AND K-Gut Pro and K-Gut. ALL other strings, be they ANY syn gut or multi, the weight has dropped a lot, and I mean a lot! Hmmm....so what do you think K-Gut Pro and polys have in common? Stiffness and no resiliency? Nah...that can't be it, can it? :-?

Oh, and why would I care what the USRSA does or doesn't do? They seem to be wrong more often than they are right.


By the way, do you think anyone will agree with you now that each of the strings you cite above plays "softer" than K-Gut Pro?
I don't care what other people think of the strings. I and my arm care what I think of the strings.


What people in here are waiting to hear, silly, is why they should listen to your frantic intent just to have them buy into what you sell--just to see if you can get away with this, and what crank interpretation some will buy into when doing so.
I don't care if they listen or not. They are free to use K-Gut Pro thinking that it's a soft, comfortable, arm-friendly multi, just like I made the mistake of doing. Just don't come back crying to me if they develop TE from using it. Use at your own risk.


In the meantime: "Research by [Rod] Cross at the University of Sydney has shown that [even] pro tennis players have much less feel for strings than they think, and tend to overestimate their importance. A study published last year found that 90% of professionals could not feel a 6 lb. (2.7 kg) difference in the tension of strings in two different frames even though most professionals insist on exacting string specifications for their matches." Now, I wonder what this should mean for telling the difference between "stiffness" from manufacture and that due to tension, as well as how one knows the difference from play. At that point, we can come to how sensitive individual players do get, and what their comments about the string in play can actually be referring to. That should interest you.
I've read both "The Physics and Technology of Tennis" and "Technical Tennis", both by Rod Cross. He also claims that strings don't really matter. I think the great majority of people on this board would disagree with him. If strings really didn't matter, why are there literally hundreds of choices of strings? And why do companies keep coming out with new kinds of strings? And even new string companies with new ideas of improving strings?

If you can't feel the difference in stiffness between Big Banger ALU and NRG2, then you've already got a "dead arm".


Coincidences, that's all you have going for you. And, as I have shown to you, there are myriad ways to explain away those. Speaking loudly each time you're contradicted isn't going to win you the adherents you appear to crave, though; I wouldn't be betting on that for any reason.
Sure, because you've never had TE yourself so somehow you're an expert on TE? I'd bet you don't even use a 1HBH and are under 40 years of age. I don't think anyone here takes you seriously anyway. Sure, TE is caused by "coincidence". :-?

BTW, how have YOU helped anyone in these threads? :confused: And you're mistaken as YOU'RE the one that keeps getting contradicted here, not me.

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 01:07 PM
I'm having some arm pain and two MRT's have now suggested that this is because I play with a 27.5 frame. Where do I go to get more information on this?
Torque = Force x distance. So the longer the racquet, the greater the distance between the point of contact (where the force is applied) and your elbow, so your elbow experiences more stress from the greater torque.

The first time I ever got tennis elbow was 8 years ago when I used a lighter 27.5 inch racquet (Head Ti Fire Tour Edition). After some time off, I came back and switched to a heavier, standard length (27 inch) racquet and never experienced even a hint of TE again until I used the K-Gut Pro strings.

Why not try switching to a shorter racquet for a while to see if your arm feels better? Of course, the weight and stiffness of your current racquet may also be a factor in your arm pain. But try eliminating one variable at a time, if you can. Also, you may want to take some time off to heal and only come back and try these things when you're pain free again. Good luck.

DrewRafter8
01-03-2010, 02:16 PM
I took a month and a half off. Just played a bit last week and this week. Arm's hurting in a different area. Friend that's a MD says it may be tendonitis. I am taking your advice, made a decision this morning. I've got my eye on a couple 27 inch frames that I'll try out in February when it warms up.

My arm only hurts when I serve, which is because of the torque of pronation. Sad thing is that I've played with this racquet for almost three years. I've made some adjustments and am bringing more heat on my serve then ever before. Form is fine, so that leaves me with the thought that the 27.5 is wrecking my arm.

I did hit with a friend's APD with Cortex on Wednesday that was standard length and had no pain. Crazy stuff. Thanks for the advice!

mikeler
01-03-2010, 02:27 PM
The pain will move around your elbow with tendonitis.

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 05:25 PM
I took a month and a half off. Just played a bit last week and this week. Arm's hurting in a different area. Friend that's a MD says it may be tendonitis. I am taking your advice, made a decision this morning. I've got my eye on a couple 27 inch frames that I'll try out in February when it warms up.

My arm only hurts when I serve, which is because of the torque of pronation. Sad thing is that I've played with this racquet for almost three years. I've made some adjustments and am bringing more heat on my serve then ever before. Form is fine, so that leaves me with the thought that the 27.5 is wrecking my arm.

I did hit with a friend's APD with Cortex on Wednesday that was standard length and had no pain. Crazy stuff. Thanks for the advice!
You're quite welcome.

If the pain comes from serving only, it may be golfer's elbow, which is the same as tennis elbow in that it's micro tears in the elbow tendon except that it's the tendon on the inside of your elbow (the side of your elbow closer to your chest when you extend your arm straight out with your palm facing up). Golfer's elbow is generally caused by hitting forehands and serves while tennis elbow is generally caused by hitting backhands (usually one-handed backhands).

Yes, it's true that a longer racquet tends to help people hit bigger serves because, for one thing, it essentially gives you more height, but it also puts more force on the ball with the same swing for the same reason it puts more force (stress) on your elbow: torque. This is also why longer racquets will measure higher for swingweight, all else being equal.

Good luck. I hope you find the right solution for you.

hoodjem
01-03-2010, 05:36 PM
ALL polys hurt my arm, even the softest ones you can think of, like SPPP, ProLine II, Luxilon M2 Pro, etc. So that's why I find K-Gut Pro to feel as stiff as a poly, because even if it's no stiffer than a soft poly, that's still too stiff for me, so for me, it might as well BE a poly.

BTW, yes, K-Gut is not as stiff as K-Gut Pro, but both are stiffer than any other multis I have ever used.

Wilson K Gut 16 Nylon 1.31 191
Wilson K Gut 17 Nylon 1.28 183

Babolat Pro Hurricane 18 Polyester 1.21 187
Head Sonic Pro 17 Polyester 1.23 199
Tecnifibre Promix 17 (1.25) Polyester 1.27 199
Pacific Poly Power 18 Polyester 1.09 201

Pretty darn close.

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 06:09 PM
Wilson K Gut 16 Nylon 1.31 191
Wilson K Gut 17 Nylon 1.28 183

Babolat Pro Hurricane 18 Polyester 1.21 187
Head Sonic Pro 17 Polyester 1.23 199
Tecnifibre Promix 17 (1.25) Polyester 1.27 199
Pacific Poly Power 18 Polyester 1.09 201

Pretty darn close.
Yes, true, but again, those USRSA stiffness rating numbers don't really mean anything to me. The only thing that means anything to me when it comes to the stiffness of a string is how stiff it actually feels in your racquet when you hit the ball with it (or while you're stringing it).

I mean, they even rated K-Gut Pro to be softer than K-Gut, which everyone who has used both knows is wrong.

Wilson K Gut 16 Nylon 1.31 191
Wilson K Gut Pro 16 Nylon 1.33 182

Wilson K Gut 17 Nylon 1.28 183
Wilson K Gut 17 Pro Nylon 1.27 163

jazzyfunkybluesy
01-03-2010, 06:12 PM
BP,

You said you are just getting over tennis elbow. Have you tried putting gut or a multi in the main and a soft, super thin, non textured poly in the cross?

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 06:56 PM
BP,

You said you are just getting over tennis elbow. Have you tried putting gut or a multi in the main and a soft, super thin, non textured poly in the cross?
No, I will avoid ALL polys. Polys feel stiff even in the crosses to me, even with an ultra soft multi in the mains. In fact, I got tennis elbow by using K-Gut Pro in only the crosses and at only 48 lbs, even with a very soft multi in the mains at 54 lbs.

No stiff strings of any type - be it poly, multi, or anything else - for me ever again. From now on, it's all about softness for me.

SteveI
01-03-2010, 07:28 PM
Wilson K Gut 16 Nylon 1.31 191
Wilson K Gut 17 Nylon 1.28 183

Babolat Pro Hurricane 18 Polyester 1.21 187
Head Sonic Pro 17 Polyester 1.23 199
Tecnifibre Promix 17 (1.25) Polyester 1.27 199
Pacific Poly Power 18 Polyester 1.09 201

Pretty darn close.

The RSI numbers are a great ref and a very nice starting point.. but they do not always represent real world experience as far as stiffness goes or tension loss. The real proof is how they play in your frame and how hard are they on your arm, shoulder.. etc. The tension specs have not always been accurate in my experience. They are lab data..:-)

Steve

JackB1
01-03-2010, 07:37 PM
No, I will avoid ALL polys. Polys feel stiff even in the crosses to me, even with an ultra soft multi in the mains. In fact, I got tennis elbow by using K-Gut Pro in only the crosses and at only 48 lbs, even with a very soft multi in the mains at 54 lbs.

No stiff strings of any type - be it poly, multi, or anything else - for me ever again. From now on, it's all about softness for me.

I agree. I tried sonic pro as a cross with a soft multi in the mains and my TE starting acting up. Even a soft poly is too much for TE sufferers.

Valjean
01-04-2010, 05:51 AM
I took a month and a half off. Just played a bit last week and this week. Arm's hurting in a different area. Friend that's a MD says it may be tendonitis. I am taking your advice, made a decision this morning. I've got my eye on a couple 27 inch frames that I'll try out in February when it warms up.

My arm only hurts when I serve, which is because of the torque of pronation. Sad thing is that I've played with this racquet for almost three years. I've made some adjustments and am bringing more heat on my serve then ever before. Form is fine, so that leaves me with the thought that the 27.5 is wrecking my arm.

I did hit with a friend's APD with Cortex on Wednesday that was standard length and had no pain. Crazy stuff. Thanks for the advice!
I just finished working my way back to a 27-inch racquet from a 29-inch Ripstick I had used for some time. In the course of it, I employed four different racquet solutions of varying lesser lengths over three years, in a phased attempt to deal with the persistent wrist and forearm tendonitis I had contracted. I could have accelerated the process had I been willing to live with the significant play difference from the Ripstick I invariably encountered, which I could not do.

Any added length increased torque on my arm, but the steady, gradual evolution to a more headlight balance contributed the most to my eventual recovery. I was forced to pay attention to both stiffness and frame weight with each reduction in length I made, making those changes that would help me keep my play level going.

What had brought on the tendonitis in the first place, after so many years of Ripstick use, was additional weight work I had embarked on that further fatigued the arm muscles between bouts of play, forcing the tendons to bear more of the play load.

mikeler
01-04-2010, 06:05 AM
Tried a full job of Maxim Touch 17g yesterday. It was incredibly soft on my arm. Ironically, the slight pain in my elbow today is in a different spot, so the pain moved a little bit once again.

ac3111
01-04-2010, 06:14 AM
The last days I am trying Weisscannon Explosiv on a K 95 18x20 @55 lbs.
Well the 1.25 CyberBlue and the 1.18 BlackCode after some 5-10 hours hitting and losing tension seem more powerful, with more control and not more stressful than the Explosiv.
Either my arm is gone crazy or I'm addicted to poly's...
And guess what. The poly @ 53lbs moves less and vibrates less than the Explosiv...
Maybe my arm has gone totally crazy...

TenniseaWilliams
01-04-2010, 07:51 AM
I've read both "The Physics and Technology of Tennis" and "Technical Tennis", both by Rod Cross. He also claims that strings don't really matter. I think the great majority of people on this board would disagree with him. If strings really didn't matter, why are there literally hundreds of choices of strings? And why do companies keep coming out with new kinds of strings? And even new string companies with new ideas of improving strings?


A complete misrepresentation of the books, the comment "strings don't really matter" was made strictly in the context of spin production.

I am also a little surprised that a mechanical engineer can get peak force and total force so confused, have little to no understanding of viscoelasticity in materials, and is willing to argue that his elbow is more accurate than a load cell.

Personally, I agree with ac3111, I don't feel reasonable ranges of stiffness have a pronounced effect on my elbow; my aging tendons and I will continue to use the USRSA data mixed with subjective player opinions to experiment with and enjoy the many different strings available.

ac3111
01-04-2010, 08:00 AM
Well I have tried only very thin to the thinnest of gauges as far as polys are concerned, MSV Focus Hex 1,18, Kirschbaum PLII 1,15, TF BlackCode 1.18, Topspin CyberBlue 1.25 all strung @53lbs.
The combination of thinner gauge with the immediate tension loss that most of polys feature and the fact that all the above poly's are considered to be soft-copolys may create a different impression to the arm compared to the lab findings.

I will use the USRSA numbers only to reject some poly's. Meaning that if I see a big stiffness number I want bother trying this poly...

What I like is that even after they lose the tension they still offer more control and the access -not the amount of spin- to spin is easier...
Easier means that you can create it easier but in the end if you try hard you can create the same amount of spin with a poly and non poly string.
And these are some remarks from someone who plays about 15 months...

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 01:12 PM
A complete misrepresentation of the books, the comment "strings don't really matter" was made strictly in the context of spin production.

I am also a little surprised that a mechanical engineer can get peak force and total force so confused, have little to no understanding of viscoelasticity in materials, and is willing to argue that his elbow is more accurate than a load cell.

Personally, I agree with ac3111, I don't feel reasonable ranges of stiffness have a pronounced effect on my elbow; my aging tendons and I will continue to use the USRSA data mixed with subjective player opinions to experiment with and enjoy the many different strings available.
Because those things simply don't matter in my example. If a string does not stretch at all on a drop weight machine while you're stringing it, it is NOT going to stretch more when you hit the ball than a string that DOES stretch a lot while stringing it. Can you name one single string that does this? I don't think it exists. The only time there may be an effect is if you're stringing and playing in vastly different temperatures. And I certainly wouldn't want to play with a string that turns into caramel when it gets hot outside.

When you string a string that does not move the drop weight, which is exactly what happens when you string a poly, then that string has a lot more in common in stiffness with a poly than a string that does stretch a lot and drops the weight quite a bit. The force on all 3 strings are the same. It doesn't matter if it's peak or not.

And do I really care what a load cell says if a string feels stiff to me and injures my arm? Um...no, not really. Just like I don't care if a pizza was measured to be the best tasting pizza of all time if it tastes like crap to me.

BTW, I disagree that strings don't make any difference in spin production. Strings that don't move as much (e.g., poly) have more ability to generate spin.

jazzyfunkybluesy
01-04-2010, 01:22 PM
Because those things simply don't matter in my example. If a string does not stretch at all on a drop weight machine while you're stringing it, it is NOT going to stretch more when you hit the ball than a string that DOES stretch a lot while stringing it. Can you name one single string that does this? It doesn't exist because it's impossible. The only time there may be an effect is if you're stringing and playing in vastly different temperatures. And I certainly wouldn't want to play with a string that turns into caramel when it gets hot outside.

When you string a string that does not move the drop weight, which is exactly what happens when you string a poly, then that string has a lot more in common in stiffness with a poly than a string does does stretch a lot and drops the weight quite a bit. The force on all 3 strings are the same. It doesn't matter if it's peak or not.

And do I really care what a load cell says if a string feels stiff to me and injures my arm? Um...no, not really. Just like I don't care if a pizza was measured to be the best tasting pizza of all time if it tastes like crap to me.

BTW, I disagree that strings don't make any difference in spin production. Strings that don't move as much (e.g., poly) have more ability to generate spin.

I guess you don't plan on hitting with much spin. Do you S&V?

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 02:07 PM
I guess you don't plan on hitting with much spin. Do you S&V?
I've hit mostly flat my entire life, so not much has changed. :)

Yes, I used to S&V almost all the time, but nowadays it's less and less because I just can't get up to the net as quickly as I used to be able to. :(

TenniseaWilliams
01-04-2010, 04:38 PM
Because those things simply don't matter in my example. If a string does not stretch at all on a drop weight machine while you're stringing it, it is NOT going to stretch more when you hit the ball than a string that DOES stretch a lot while stringing it. Can you name one single string that does this? I don't think it exists. The only time there may be an effect is if you're stringing and playing in vastly different temperatures. And I certainly wouldn't want to play with a string that turns into caramel when it gets hot outside.


As a general rule of thumb, strings that elongate more on the stringer are softer during impact. But these are separate materials characteristics, one does not imply the other.

Have you ever strung Polyfibre TCS or one of the inexpensive Isospeed copolys?

They stretch like a cheap synthetic gut on the stringer, but play more firmly than the newer copoly. As another example, the thick Global Gut doesn't have anywhere near as much give as either of the above strings, but plays only slightly firmer than Babolat VS.


When you string a string that does not move the drop weight, which is exactly what happens when you string a poly, then that string has a lot more in common in stiffness with a poly than a string that does stretch a lot and drops the weight quite a bit. The force on all 3 strings are the same. It doesn't matter if it's peak or not.


The peak force comment was in context of being struck by a ball, not during stringing. Hopefully the peak force throughout the stringjob would be reasonably close to the force applied by reference tension.


And do I really care what a load cell says if a string feels stiff to me and injures my arm? Um...no, not really. Just like I don't care if a pizza was measured to be the best tasting pizza of all time if it tastes like crap to me.

Except that one is measured, and the other is rated.


BTW, I disagree that strings don't make any difference in spin production. Strings that don't move as much (e.g., poly) have more ability to generate spin.

There are a lot of theories about that, most of them centering on string to string interactions. The same theories could explain why a soft string might play stiffer in a stringbed than in isolation, or that a stringbed might play stiffer notched than fresh. What the theories don't do is to declare strings magic, and off-limits to science or objective measurement.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 09:41 PM
As a general rule of thumb, strings that elongate more on the stringer are softer during impact. But these are separate materials characteristics, one does not imply the other.
It has in my experience. Every poly I have ever strung did not stretch at all on the drop weight and they all felt very stiff when I played with them. The exact same thing happened when I strung K-Gut and K-Gut Pro, so it was no surprise to me at all they they both also played stiff. OTOH, every other multi and syn gut I have ever strung have stretched a lot on the drop weight and all of them felt more resilient than every poly and K-Gut Pro/K-Gut when I played with them. The correlation has been 100% for me.


Have you ever strung Polyfibre TCS or one of the inexpensive Isospeed copolys?

They stretch like a cheap synthetic gut on the stringer, but play more firmly than the newer copoly. As another example, the thick Global Gut doesn't have anywhere near as much give as either of the above strings, but plays only slightly firmer than Babolat VS.

No I have not. Are you sure it's not because they are less resilient that when you stretched them while stringing you had taken almost all of the resiliency (pre-stretched) out of those strings so therefore they played more firmly in the stringbed, i.e., no more "snap back"? I'm not surprised that a poly would do this.

But, OTOH, have you ever experienced a string that did not elongate even one millimeter while stringing but then stretched like a rubber band when you hit the ball? I mean, that's what we're talking about here with my K-Gut Pro example, right? I have never heard of such a string characteristic and I don't even think it's possible under normal playing temperature conditions.


The peak force comment was in context of being struck by a ball, not during stringing. Hopefully the peak force throughout the stringjob would be reasonably close to the force applied by reference tension.
Yes, I know what you meant. What I was saying is the I hit the ball exactly the same way regardless of what string is in my racquet. Therefore, the peak force experienced by my stringbed is exactly the same regardless of the string in my racquet.


Except that one is measured, and the other is rated.
I mean a pizza could be measured to have the perfect saltiness, acidity, flavor, softness, crunchiness, etc., but you can still think it tastes terrible.

Besides, there are racquets that are measured to be stiff but feel flexy when you hit the ball. And there are racquets that are measured to have a high swingweight but feel very easy to swing. The bottom line is that nobody has yet figured out how to scientifically and accurately measure tennis strings.


There are a lot of theories about that, most of them centering on string to string interactions. The same theories could explain why a soft string might play stiffer in a stringbed than in isolation, or that a stringbed might play stiffer notched than fresh. What the theories don't do is to declare strings magic, and off-limits to science or objective measurement.
I don't think strings can be measured objectively because the same string will feel and play differently for different people. This is why they conduct playtests with real people and not just measure the strings in a lab and leave it at that.

raygo
01-05-2010, 01:33 AM
I don't think strings can be measured objectively because the same string will feel and play differently for different people. This is why they conduct playtests with real people and not just measure the strings in a lab and leave it at that.

This is why I playtest strings based on lab data; it may not capture the entire big picture (hence the need to playtest), but at least it's impartial as a starting point. I'm burned out sifting through people's opinions, especially here. Having said that, it piques my curiosity when someone vehemently goes against the status quo in defense of a string, so I'll have to try out HollowCore now. And in true TT fashion, there's a "HollowCore sucks" thread right on page 1...

TenniseaWilliams
01-05-2010, 08:19 AM
...
But, OTOH, have you ever experienced a string that did not elongate even one millimeter while stringing but then stretched like a rubber band when you hit the ball? I mean, that's what we're talking about here with my K-Gut Pro example, right? I have never heard of such a string characteristic and I don't even think it's possible under normal playing temperature conditions.


I don't know of any string that goes to that extreme, but as I mentioned before, Global Gut doesn't stretch as much as a lot of synthetics during stringing, but plays softly.


Yes, I know what you meant. What I was saying is the I hit the ball exactly the same way regardless of what string is in my racquet. Therefore, the peak force experienced by my stringbed is exactly the same regardless of the string in my racquet.

The dwell time of the ball on the strings is not constant between string types, tensions, higher swing speeds, etc. If the same amount of force is delivered in a shorter time period, there is a higher peak force.


I mean a pizza could be measured to have the perfect saltiness, acidity, flavor, softness, crunchiness, etc., but you can still think it tastes terrible.

"Perfect" is not a measurable quantity, flavor and texture are ratings. You don't "measure" that stuff. If I want to know how many mg's of sodium are in something, I don't taste it to find out. I think we get each others point here.


Besides, there are racquets that are measured to be stiff but feel flexy when you hit the ball. And there are racquets that are measured to have a high swingweight but feel very easy to swing. The bottom line is that nobody has yet figured out how to scientifically and accurately measure tennis strings.


Those racquets may have additional flexibility in the throat, dampening in the handle, grommet interactions, etc. The hoop stiffness is just one part of how the racquet feels; it cannot be used in isolation to evaluate a racquet. This doesn't invalidate the measurement.


I don't think strings can be measured objectively because the same string will feel and play differently for different people. This is why they conduct playtests with real people and not just measure the strings in a lab and leave it at that.

If you believe that the same string will feel and play differently for different people, why would you assume K-Gut will be stiff for everyone?

TenniseaWilliams
01-05-2010, 08:23 AM
This is why I playtest strings based on lab data; it may not capture the entire big picture (hence the need to playtest), but at least it's impartial as a starting point. I'm burned out sifting through people's opinions, especially here. Having said that, it piques my curiosity when someone vehemently goes against the status quo in defense of a string, so I'll have to try out HollowCore now. And in true TT fashion, there's a "HollowCore sucks" thread right on page 1...

That's because HollowCore has a 43.7 s/uck^2 value when measured against a wall with a golf ball.

ac3111
01-05-2010, 08:30 AM
Don't forget one thing besides the string and arm variables there is the racquet variable.

BreakPoint
01-05-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't know of any string that goes to that extreme, but as I mentioned before, Global Gut doesn't stretch as much as a lot of synthetics during stringing, but plays softly.
I haven't strung Global Gut, but I still find that hard to believe. When you say "softly", are you comparing it to polys?


The dwell time of the ball on the strings is not constant between string types, tensions, higher swing speeds, etc. If the same amount of force is delivered in a shorter time period, there is a higher peak force.
Firstly, I did say my swing speed remains the same regardless of the string, and I also assumed the same tension because I only mentioned different types of strings so of course all else remains equal.

Secondly, I don't buy that the dwell time is that different for different types of strings - it just FEELS different to your hand. The reason is that with a stiff string like poly, when the ball impacts the stringbed the stringbed does not deform all that much, the deformation is more in the ball as it flattens against the stringbed. This is why people get the sensation of "bite" when using poly. With a more resilient string like a multi, the deformation is more in the stringbed than the ball. Since your hand feels stringbed deformation more than ball deformation, it feels like the dwell time is longer because you can feel the stringbed deforming for a period of time. But in both cases, the ball is actually in contact with the stringbed for a similar amount of time, i.e., dwell time. With a stiff stringbed, that time is used up by the ball deforming, while with a soft stringbed that time is used up by the stringbed deforming.


"Perfect" is not a measurable quantity, flavor and texture are ratings. You don't "measure" that stuff. If I want to know how many mg's of sodium are in something, I don't taste it to find out. I think we get each others point here.
Well, I know texture can be measured and I think flavor can as well. In any case, you can measure the mg of sodium to be salty but still not taste salty to you for other reasons.


Those racquets may have additional flexibility in the throat, dampening in the handle, grommet interactions, etc. The hoop stiffness is just one part of how the racquet feels; it cannot be used in isolation to evaluate a racquet. This doesn't invalidate the measurement.
Likewise, there are other factors in the stiffness of a string than just what is measured by the USRSA


If you believe that the same string will feel and play differently for different people, why would you assume K-Gut will be stiff for everyone?
I haven't. I've always said that my experience is that K-Gut Pro plays and feels very stiff. It's Valjean that doesn't believe me.

But I'm not just talking about feel and play. Those things are subjective so each person may have a different opinion. But the fact that K-Gut Pro does not stretch at all while stringing on a drop weight, just like almost all polys, is not subjective but totally objective and a fact which cannot be disputed. Thus, I do believe that K-Gut Pro is a universally stiff string that's more similar to most polys than to most multis, and that the only people who don't think it's stiff must be people that usually use strings that are even stiffer, e.g., poly, kevlar, etc.

Bad Dog
01-05-2010, 02:14 PM
BreakPoint –

Your explanation may seem rather confusing. If your dropweight stringing machine manages to stretch other strings so that they are in effect longer, that would seem to be a clear indication that those other strings have thereby lost significant resilience and thus may be lower quality.
• However, it may be possible to consider that newer strings engineered with enough resilience to not become in effect longer after dropweight machine stretching, may turn out to have higher, better, longer-lasting resilience.

Such differing levels of resilience, and resilience maintenance, may appear to be what separate higher-quality multifilaments from the less expensive varieties. This is why it appears to me that K-Gut Pro maintains its resilience longer than the string it superseded, NXT Tour.
• For example, NXT Tour and K-Gut Pro may play similarly at the beginning, but NXT Tour seemed to lose its resilience properties much sooner than K-Gut Pro. In other words, after vigorous hitting, NXT Tour seemed to stretch out and die sooner, thereby losing its resilience properties faster, and becoming stiffer than K-Gut Pro.


Tangentially, I would also caution you to consider that persistent negative focus on one specific string may inadvertently but effectively obscure the issue you are presumably trying to highlight. In essence, it appears that you feel you acquired tennis elbow from one particular top grade multifilament string. [Of course I am very sorry to hear about your injury, because you are often a valued contributor to these boards – specifically in terms of racquet reviews.]
• So hopefully you might contemplate that you could have just as easily acquired tennis elbow from numerous other top grade multifilaments which may exhibit broadly similar resilience properties on the tennis court, potentially including IsoSpeed Professional (Classic), LaserFibre Supernatural Gut Pro Stock, Babolat TGV, Prince Premier LT, NXT Tour, even Head Rip Control.


In my own personal opinion, K-Gut Pro is great (and K-Gut is even greater). But at exactly the same tension on the same stringing machine, Babolat TGV and Prince Premier LT seemed to give me elbow twinges – even though the latter two may be perceived to be not as stiff as K-Gut Pro.
• My perception was that TGV and Premier may have played slightly less stiff initially – but then they lost their resilience relatively faster than K-Gut Pro.
• And as we all may have figured out by now, when strings lose their resilience because they are stretched, and therefore become in effect longer – they become stiffer. Yes, potentially stiffer than K-Gut Pro.
• Some time ago on these boards, I read about a case of tennis elbow possibly acquired from Wilson Sensation, that had been played in a racquet too long. It seemed to have lost its resilience, stretched, and the resulting stiffness was no good on the elbow. Yet Sensation is claimed to be a relatively soft string, along with, say, Prince Premier LT.

Since there is a separate thread about some people who may even have tennis elbow with natural gut (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=303855 ), it would thus appear that many things are plausible, with many strings. It is therefore conceivable that someone could have tennis elbow with just about any string – even K-Gut Pro or natural gut – especially if a particular string did not happen to agree with his own particular elbow. My elbow doesn't like some strings, your elbow doesn't like others. Luckily, capitalism provides us with a tremendous array of alternatives.

In any case, BreakPoint, I seem to recall that you prefer to play with syn guts, rather than natural gut and top-of-the-line multifilaments. To me, Wilson’s Hollow Core played somewhat similar to syn gut, so hopefully Hollow Core may turn out to be among your strings of choice over the long term.

In conclusion, BreakPoint – I would like to mention that I have a lot of respect for you, and especially your racquet reviews on the Wilson 6.0 95 and Volkl C10 Pro 98 – both of which I am glad to have bought on the basis of your own high recommendations. I hope you get well soon, and get back to reviewing more racquets! How about the reportedly armed-friendly Volkl PB 10 Mid … if you give it as great a review as the C10 Pro, I might have to buy it on your recommendation. :)

BreakPoint
01-05-2010, 02:59 PM
BreakPoint –

Your explanation may seem rather confusing. If your dropweight stringing machine manages to stretch other strings so that they are in effect longer, that would seem to be a clear indication that those other strings have thereby lost significant resilience and thus may be lower quality.

Not in my experience. In my experience, a string that stretches a lot on a drop weight machine is a string that is very resilient and that resiliency remains once it's in the stringbed and plays with a lot resiliency. I never pre-stretch any strings because I want them to remain resilient. In fact, to me, the more a string stretches on the machine, the more resilient it is, and to me, the higher quality string it is.


• However, it may be possible to consider that newer strings engineered with enough resilience to not become in effect longer after dropweight machine stretching, may turn out to have higher, better, longer-lasting resilience.
Not in my experience. In my experience, the only strings that did not stretch at all on the machine have all been polys and K-Gut Pro and K-Gut. All other strings have stretched. So it's no surprise to me that both polys and K-Gut Pro/K-Gut play so stiff in the stringbed.


Such differing levels of resilience, and resilience maintenance, may appear to be what separate higher-quality multifilaments from the less expensive varieties. This is why it appears to me that K-Gut Pro maintains its resilience longer than the string it superseded, NXT Tour.

K-Gut Pro feels like it has almost zero resilience to me even when fresh.

I have never noticed a correlation between the resilience/quality of strings and their price. Some of the worst strings I have ever tried have been the most expensive (e.g., K-Gut Pro, K-Gut, Luxilon M2 Pro, natural gut, etc.) while some of the best strings I have ever tried have been the cheapest (e.g., Gosen OG Sheep Micro, Wilson Reaction, Prince Syn Gut Multi, E-Matrix, etc.)


• For example, NXT Tour and K-Gut Pro may play similarly at the beginning, but NXT Tour seemed to lose its resilience properties much sooner than K-Gut Pro. In other words, after vigorous hitting, NXT Tour seemed to stretch out and die sooner, thereby losing its resilience properties faster, and becoming stiffer than K-Gut Pro.
I've never tried NXT Tour, but I have never experienced a string that actually felt stiffer over time. What usually happens to me is that a string will lose tension over time and will actually feel softer and become too powerful.


Tangentially, I would also caution you to consider that persistent negative focus on one specific string may inadvertently but effectively obscure the issue you are presumably trying to highlight. In essence, it appears that you feel you acquired tennis elbow from one particular top grade multifilament string. [Of course I am very sorry to hear about your injury, because you are often a valued contributor to these boards – specifically in terms of racquet reviews.]

I think "top grade" is a matter of opinion. IMO, K-Gut Pro has the grade of barbed wire. :shock:


• So hopefully you might contemplate that you could have just as easily acquired tennis elbow from numerous other top grade multifilaments which may exhibit broadly similar resilience properties on the tennis court, potentially including IsoSpeed Professional (Classic), LaserFibre Supernatural Gut Pro Stock, Babolat TGV, Prince Premier LT, NXT Tour, even Head Rip Control.
Yes, I certainly could have but I haven't tried any of those other strings you've listed. I'm not knocking all multis as I love most multis (e.g., PSGM, Hollow Core, Sensation, Reaction, E-Matrix, etc.). I just know that K-Gut Pro gave me tennis elbow because it's so stiff, unlike all the other multis I've ever tried.


In my own personal opinion, K-Gut Pro is great (and K-Gut is even greater). But at exactly the same tension on the same stringing machine, Babolat TGV and Prince Premier LT seemed to give me elbow twinges – even though the latter two may be perceived to be not as stiff as K-Gut Pro.
• My perception was that TGV and Premier may have played slightly less stiff initially – but then they lost their resilience relatively faster than K-Gut Pro.
• And as we all may have figured out by now, when strings lose their resilience because they are stretched, and therefore become in effect longer – they become stiffer. Yes, potentially stiffer than K-Gut Pro.

Sure, I guess that could also happen. All I know is that K-Gut Pro is the stiffest multi I have ever hit with, similar to most polys, and is the only non-poly string that I have ever strung on a drop weight machine that did not budge the weight at all when dropped. Thus, to me, there's really not much difference between K-Gut Pro and polys. Both don't stretch on the machine, both play stiff and harsh, both don't move much in the stringbed, both have low power but good control, both enhance spin, etc. That's why poly users tend to like K-Gut Pro a lot more than I do (a multi and syn gut user).


• Some time ago on these boards, I read about a case of tennis elbow possibly acquired from Wilson Sensation, that had been played in a racquet too long. It seemed to have lost its resilience, stretched, and the resulting stiffness was no good on the elbow. Yet Sensation is claimed to be a relatively soft string, along with, say, Prince Premier LT.
K-Gut Pro felt stiff and harsh to me from the very first hit and I only used it for two weeks before it gave me tennis elbow. And the K-Gut Pro was only in the crosses strung at a low 48lbs. I had PSGM in the mains at 54lbs, a string that I have used and loved for many years with no arm issues at all. Soft as butter.


Since there is a separate thread about some people who may even have tennis elbow with natural gut (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=303855 ), it would thus appear that many things are plausible, with many strings. It is therefore conceivable that someone could have tennis elbow with just about any string – even K-Gut Pro or natural gut – especially if a particular string did not happen to agree with his own particular elbow. My elbow doesn't like some strings, your elbow doesn't like others. Luckily, capitalism provides us with a tremendous array of alternatives.

If K-Gut Pro play almost the same as natural gut as Wilson claims it does, I can certainly believe people getting TE from natural gut.


In any case, BreakPoint, I seem to recall that you prefer to play with syn guts, rather than natural gut and top-of-the-line multifilaments. To me, Wilson’s Hollow Core played somewhat similar to syn gut, so hopefully Hollow Core may turn out to be among your strings of choice over the long term.
Hollow Core plays like a very soft syn gut to me, similar to a lot of the softer multis. I love the stuff!


In conclusion, BreakPoint – I would like to mention that I have a lot of respect for you, and especially your racquet reviews on the Wilson 6.0 95 and Volkl C10 Pro 98 – both of which I am glad to have bought on the basis of your own high recommendations. I hope you get well soon, and get back to reviewing more racquets! How about the reportedly armed-friendly Volkl PB 10 Mid … if you give it as great a review as the C10 Pro, I might have to buy it on your recommendation. :)
Thanks. :)

I would also love to try the Volkl PB10 Mid as all the things I've heard about it are things that I like in a racquet. Hopefully soon after I return.

vincent_tennis
01-05-2010, 06:26 PM
ad hominem ftw -,-

Richie Rich
01-05-2010, 06:52 PM
Not in my experience. In my experience, a string that stretches a lot on a drop weight machine is a string that is very resilient and that resiliency remains once it's in the stringbed and plays with a lot resiliency. I never pre-stretch any strings because I want them to remain resilient. In fact, to me, the more a string stretches on the machine, the more resilient it is, and to me, the higher quality string it is.

excluding the higher quality string comment, this has been my experience as well. i used a drop weight for years. but this happens with cranks and constant pull electrics as well.

in a dropweight a soft multi will require you (most times anyway) to tension the string twice so that the arm stays horizontal and at the reference tension. a poly, on the other hand, will only require the dropweight to drop a few degrees to keep the arm horizontal and hit the reference tension.

BreakPoint
01-05-2010, 09:12 PM
excluding the higher quality string comment, this has been my experience as well. i used a drop weight for years. but this happens with cranks and constant pull electrics as well.

in a dropweight a soft multi will require you (most times anyway) to tension the string twice so that the arm stays horizontal and at the reference tension. a poly, on the other hand, will only require the dropweight to drop a few degrees to keep the arm horizontal and hit the reference tension.
The fact of the matter is, when I string a poly string on a drop weight, I have no idea what tension I'm really stringing it at because the weight doesn't drop at all so the weight just stays wherever I release it, whether it's horizontal or not, so how do I even know if the weight has pulled the string to the correct tension or not?

scotus
01-05-2010, 10:41 PM
When you string a string that does not move the drop weight, which is exactly what happens when you string a poly, then that string has a lot more in common in stiffness with a poly than a string that does stretch a lot and drops the weight quite a bit. The force on all 3 strings are the same. It doesn't matter if it's peak or not.


BP,

My manual dropweight machine used to frustrate me when stringing polys for the very reason you mentioned. The darn weight arm does not move! And I always wondered if I was getting any sort of accuracy and consistency.

But that problem disappeared when I switched to the automatic dropweight machine from Stringway. I am not sure whether it is because the Stringway machine has an extra extra long weight arm, but the weight arm moves down and finds the right tension.

BreakPoint
01-05-2010, 11:47 PM
BP,

My manual dropweight machine used to frustrate me when stringing polys for the very reason you mentioned. The darn weight arm does not move! And I always wondered if I was getting any sort of accuracy and consistency.

But that problem disappeared when I switched to the automatic dropweight machine from Stringway. I am not sure whether it is because the Stringway machine has an extra extra long weight arm, but the weight arm moves down and finds the right tension.
Interesting. I've never even heard of an automatic dropweight machine. How does it work? I assumed all dropweight machines only used gravity to tension the string?

Richie Rich
01-06-2010, 05:01 AM
The fact of the matter is, when I string a poly string on a drop weight, I have no idea what tension I'm really stringing it at because the weight doesn't drop at all so the weight just stays wherever I release it, whether it's horizontal or not, so how do I even know if the weight has pulled the string to the correct tension or not?

only time i've had that happen with the drop weight was if i had the arm too high to start with. most times with poly i would only have to lift the arm a few inches, put the string in the tensioner/gripper, and drop the arm so it ended up horzontal. i have no idea if the tension was accurate but the string jobs played well and were similar to what i got on a electronic constant pull so i was happy.

whereas with a multi you pretty much take the arm as high as it can go, drop the arm, then do it again. man, multi's took a long time on my drop weight - every main and cross had to be double tensioned :lol:

scotus
01-06-2010, 09:40 AM
Interesting. I've never even heard of an automatic dropweight machine. How does it work? I assumed all dropweight machines only used gravity to tension the string?

Without getting into the mechanics of it, the automatic dropweight machine simply finds the right tension for you, so that the user does not have to repeatedly lift and let go of the tension arm for the horizontal position. There is no electric motor involved here.

The only way to string polys IMO on a manual dropweight machine is to give the string a whole lot of slack and get the tension arm fairly close to the horizontal position before letting the tension arm drop. And even then I am suspicious of the accuracy of the tension on the dropweight machine when it comes to stringing polys.

ClubHoUno
01-06-2010, 11:45 AM
@ breakpoint:

Have you ever tried Babolat Xcel Power or Babolat Xcel Prime Multis ?

Have you ever tried Babolat VS TEAM 17 NATTY GUT ?

NATTY GUT cured my TE/GE :)

BreakPoint
01-06-2010, 12:06 PM
only time i've had that happen with the drop weight was if i had the arm too high to start with. most times with poly i would only have to lift the arm a few inches, put the string in the tensioner/gripper, and drop the arm so it ended up horzontal. i have no idea if the tension was accurate but the string jobs played well and were similar to what i got on a electronic constant pull so i was happy.

whereas with a multi you pretty much take the arm as high as it can go, drop the arm, then do it again. man, multi's took a long time on my drop weight - every main and cross had to be double tensioned :lol:
Yup, that's been my experience with multis as well. That's why when I strung K-Gut Pro and the weight didn't drop at all, it occurred to me that this string is much more like a poly than any multi I have ever strung. I guess the fact that it played so stiff in the stringbed and that I got tennis elbow from it further confirmed my initial fears about K-Gut Pro. :(

Mansewerz
01-06-2010, 01:43 PM
This is an assbackwards argument between two guys that are not willing to relent.

Here's what I don't understand. Why don't we get two dropweight users to try K-gut Pro against Gosen OG micro, and tell us the difference purely in stringing?

Also, BP how do you know that it is not your technique that is killing your elbow? What's to say that your frame is always to blame?

Standupnfall
01-06-2010, 01:56 PM
This is an assbackwards argument between two guys that are not willing to relent.

Here's what I don't understand. Why don't we get two dropweight users to try K-gut Pro against Gosen OG micro, and tell us the difference purely in stringing?

Also, BP how do you know that it is not your technique that is killing your elbow? What's to say that your frame is always to blame?

I am game, anyone want sell/trade (give:)) me a set, or half set of Kgut pro for an unbiased test?
After my next singles tournament on the 15-17th I will have 2 racquets available to string and playtest. I have Gosen Micro OG in 16 and 17 on hand.

Thanks

bieker
01-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Just drop it you guys...

And do you even play tennis Breaking Point? 26,000 posts?! How do you have time to play. -joking

mikeler
01-06-2010, 04:26 PM
This is an assbackwards argument between two guys that are not willing to relent.

Here's what I don't understand. Why don't we get two dropweight users to try K-gut Pro against Gosen OG micro, and tell us the difference purely in stringing?

Also, BP how do you know that it is not your technique that is killing your elbow? What's to say that your frame is always to blame?


Seems like Valjean has given up, so the thread is getting closer to being on topic.

BreakPoint
01-06-2010, 04:35 PM
This is an assbackwards argument between two guys that are not willing to relent.

Here's what I don't understand. Why don't we get two dropweight users to try K-gut Pro against Gosen OG micro, and tell us the difference purely in stringing?

Also, BP how do you know that it is not your technique that is killing your elbow? What's to say that your frame is always to blame?
Because I have been using the same technique for many decades and the same frame for many years without any problems. I've never had any problems with this frame using soft strings, but as soon as I use poly or a stiff string like K-Gut Pro...watch out!

The cause of my TE was the strings - K-Gut Pro. I would bet my life on it. I am extremely knowledgeable about TE and what causes it and I know my own body and how it reacts to different things extremely well. Heck, I've had the same model body for almost five decades and haven't traded it in for a new model yet. ;)

BreakPoint
01-06-2010, 04:36 PM
Just drop it you guys...

And do you even play tennis Breaking Point? 26,000 posts?! How do you have time to play. -joking
I'm so good that I can post and play at the same time. :lol:

mikeler
01-06-2010, 05:05 PM
Mansewerz,

Not sure if I posted it in this thread or not, but I got some Gosen synthetic gut 17 a few months ago that really aggravated my Golfer's Elbow. The stiffness rating is not especially high for that string. The stiffness ratings are a great starting point to select a string, but you can't just say string X is stiffer than string Y because that is what the table says.

Mansewerz
01-07-2010, 03:01 PM
Mansewerz,

Not sure if I posted it in this thread or not, but I got some Gosen synthetic gut 17 a few months ago that really aggravated my Golfer's Elbow. The stiffness rating is not especially high for that string. The stiffness ratings are a great starting point to select a string, but you can't just say string X is stiffer than string Y because that is what the table says.

Oh i'm not denying the fact that the table may not be correct (as yours and BP's elbows show), but both him and Valjean were going at it. I'd like to get some more unbiased evidence here.