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View Full Version : looking for feedback on these strokes, including open stance 1hbh


spacediver
10-26-2009, 04:13 PM
Here they are:

http://www.vimeo.com/7275640

I noticed that I tend to hit the 1hbh with an open stance, even when I have time to get into a closed stance. And on the rare occasion where I do approximate a closed stance, I tend to rely more on torso twist than a linear drive through.

Oddly, however, the stroke seems to give me a fairly good degree of success, although I can imagine that the closed stance will give me better accuracy and balance during and after the stroke.


p.s. there's a little treat at 2:05


I appreciate any feedback, even if it seems obvious. In the other thread, someone pointed out a flaw in my service motion that was blindingly obvious upon review, but which I never noticed until it was pointed out. It also happened to be incredibly important.


If interested, for comparison, here is the thread with my previous video made 5 days before, and since that time, I've tried to focus on using more of my torso in the forehand, rather than using "arm only":

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=294051

5263
10-26-2009, 04:46 PM
you actually do a lot of pretty good stuff, just not consistently. Like turning your shoulders with you shots. sometimes you do it very well except a small case of dead arm on the Fh, but often you just arm your shots. Same with balance, sometime real good, but often reaching and unbalanced.

spacediver
10-26-2009, 04:56 PM
Thanks. I definitely suffer balance issues on approaching shots - i tend to underestimate how much I need to move forward to make clean contact.

And believe me, this is a heavily edited video, so it's difficult to gauge my true consistency from these selected gems

in other words, my consistency is even worse than what it may appear here :p

Still, I would rather showcase what I consider my best strokes for criticism, as I feel that is the best way to learn.

spacediver
10-27-2009, 01:28 PM
any comments on the backhand? Should I try to avoid the open stance as much as possible and only use it when necessary? Or does it look like it could be a decent weapon?

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2009, 02:29 PM
Here they are:

http://www.vimeo.com/7275640

I noticed that I tend to hit the 1hbh with an open stance, even when I have time to get into a closed stance. And on the rare occasion where I do approximate a closed stance, I tend to rely more on torso twist than a linear drive through.

Please dont take this wrong, but if you are hitting onehanded backhands in an open stance when you have a chance to setup in a neutral stance, your footwork and perhaps your ball judgement is lazy.

I am not saying you shouldn't learn the onehander open stance backhand because it certainly has its place in service returns and for balls hit hard where you dont have time to setup. However, the onehanded backhand is a linear stroke for the most part and I always recommend mastering that even if you want to learn to hit it open stance.

Oddly, however, the stroke seems to give me a fairly good degree of success, although I can imagine that the closed stance will give me better accuracy and balance during and after the stroke.


p.s. there's a little treat at 2:05


I appreciate any feedback, even if it seems obvious. In the other thread, someone pointed out a flaw in my service motion that was blindingly obvious upon review, but which I never noticed until it was pointed out. It also happened to be incredibly important.

If interested, for comparison, here is the thread with my previous video made 5 days before, and since that time, I've tried to focus on using more of my torso in the forehand, rather than using "arm only":

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=294051

James Blake hits quite a few open stance onehanded backhands. At some point in my analyses I reviewed his open stance backhand. Just because I said what I said above, does not mean I am not a fan of the open stance onehander. I actually like the stroke, all I am saying is make sure you learn it with the other stance that is clearly one of the best stances for that stroke which is the neutral stance and not necessarily a closed stance.

One of thee most important things you need to know is although the lower body is situated differently on this stroke (open stance vs. neutral or closed), the upper body follows the same traditional onehanded discipline. So, you are not rotating with your open stance like you are with your forehand. It is still very much a classic onehander for the upper body and how the arm flows through contact and extends.

These are the times I wish I was talking to you about this at Yandell's site. I know he has a ton of clips to study for the open stance bakchand. I couldn't find anything. Perhaps you can?

Djokovicfan4life
10-27-2009, 02:40 PM
On the backhand, you follow through too far across your body and open up way too much. Try not to open up your shoulders more than 45 degrees in relation to the net.

At the end of this clip you can see the proper amount of uncoiling for the one handed backhand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv4Mh7lR_wk

Nice catch, BTW.

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2009, 03:06 PM
On the backhand, you follow through too far across your body and open up way too much. Try not to open up your shoulders more than 45 degrees in relation to the net.

At the end of this clip you can see the proper amount of uncoiling for the one handed backhand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv4Mh7lR_wk

Nice catch, BTW.

Yup, 45 degree angle of the body allowing the arm to come through in classic fashion is what needs to be acheived.

spacediver
10-27-2009, 03:56 PM
Please dont take this wrong, but if you are hitting onehanded backhands in an open stance when you have a chance to setup in a neutral stance, your footwork and perhaps your ball judgement is lazy.

No offense taken. These strokes were most certainly a failure of footwork and body awareness, as my intention during the rallies was to actually use a closed stance. It was surprising when I reviewed the footage to see that I rarely if ever actually set up the stroke as I had intended to.



James Blake hits quite a few open stance onehanded backhands. At some point in my analyses I reviewed his open stance backhand. Just because I said what I said above, does not mean I am not a fan of the open stance onehander. I actually like the stroke, all I am saying is make sure you learn it with the other stance that is clearly one of the best stances for that stroke which is the neutral stance and not necessarily a closed stance.

So a neutral stance would be where the line connecting my inside and outside foot are perpendicular to the direction of my stroke, correct? (I'm assuming it's analagous to the neutral stance in the forehand, as per will hamilton's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpt_2rSvSS8))




One of thee most important things you need to know is although the lower body is situated differently on this stroke (open stance vs. neutral or closed), the upper body follows the same traditional onehanded discipline. So, you are not rotating with your open stance like you are with your forehand. It is still very much a classic onehander for the upper body and how the arm flows through contact and extends.

While I understand this and accept it as a matter of dogma, I have yet to fully internalize the biomechanical wisdom behind it. There is a thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=293219)that discusses it, and my understanding is that the stroke is ideal if the bulk of the momentum is channeled linearly through the arm.

This makes sense to me for a few reasons:

1) by channeling the momentum along a linear path in the direction of the stroke, the accuracy of the stroke is more robust to small changes. If one were to rely more on rotational momentum of the torso and swinging arm, then a small change in the stroke can have drastic changes in the path the ball takes (sort of like the difficulty involved in swinging a rock attached to a rope and releasing it at the precise moment).

2) with a linear drive, the transfer of momentum from arm to racquet will result in a follow through that does not cause undue stress on the body's natural mechanics. With a rotational movement, the follow through can cause an unhealthy compression of the wrist as the momentum cause it to extend.

3) To fully utilize rotational energy in the torso, it seems that you would have to have your back completely turned towards the net, so that you are actually facing in the exact opposite direction of your stroke! This has obvious disadvantages.

4) with a torsional twist, you compromise your balance quite severely.

nevertheless, my body still believes that rotation provides more power than a linear drive. The only way I can fix this implicit, or procedural ignorance, is to experiment more carefully with a linear drive and master its kinetic flow. And even if the linear drive is less powerful, it certainly has the advantages listed above.


These are the times I wish I was talking to you about this at Yandell's site. I know he has a ton of clips to study for the open stance bakchand. I couldn't find anything. Perhaps you can?

is this the revolutionary tennis site? Will check it out. Thanks for the feedback.

spacediver
10-27-2009, 03:57 PM
On the backhand, you follow through too far across your body and open up way too much. Try not to open up your shoulders more than 45 degrees in relation to the net.

At the end of this clip you can see the proper amount of uncoiling for the one handed backhand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv4Mh7lR_wk

Nice catch, BTW.

thanks - that's a beautiful display of human kinetics.

dozu
10-27-2009, 03:59 PM
please... do yourself a favor, get rid of the so called open stance 1hbh. there is no such thing... it's called the 'hacker's tennis elbow ticking bomb' shot.

you look like an athletic guy... you can do it.... so just do it.

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2009, 04:57 PM
No offense taken. These strokes were most certainly a failure of footwork and body awareness, as my intention during the rallies was to actually use a closed stance. It was surprising when I reviewed the footage to see that I rarely if ever actually set up the stroke as I had intended to.

Yes, then it is in preparation with includes reading the ball and moving your feet to setup. Good going.

So a neutral stance would be where the line connecting my inside and outside foot are perpendicular to the direction of my stroke, correct? (I'm assuming it's analagous to the neutral stance in the forehand, as per will hamilton's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpt_2rSvSS8))

Yes, you can consider that a neutral stance. I am probably a little more liberal in that it is describe as being a forward stance meaning you step toward contact on an angle like towards the 45 degree angle. The foot does not turn parallel to the baseline but stays angled back toward the net. It isn't a closed stance either. A closed stance is just what it says "closed". Meaning your hips are blocked or closed off from the net. Let me see if I can provide a photo.

While I understand this and accept it as a matter of dogma, I have yet to fully internalize the biomechanical wisdom behind it. There is a thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=293219)that discusses it, and my understanding is that the stroke is ideal if the bulk of the momentum is channeled linearly through the arm.

Yes, as I mentioned above, you still have to maintain the classic upper body motion of the classic onehanded backhand.

This makes sense to me for a few reasons:

1) by channeling the momentum along a linear path in the direction of the stroke, the accuracy of the stroke is more robust to small changes. If one were to rely more on rotational momentum of the torso and swinging arm, then a small change in the stroke can have drastic changes in the path the ball takes (sort of like the difficulty involved in swinging a rock attached to a rope and releasing it at the precise moment).

Yes.

2) with a linear drive, the transfer of momentum from arm to racquet will result in a follow through that does not cause undue stress on the body's natural mechanics. With a rotational movement, the follow through can cause an unhealthy compression of the wrist as the momentum cause it to extend.

Yes, and you need to study Blake when he uses his open stance onehanded backhand on how he uses his legs (the way they work) to help with his balance during the stroke before, during, and after he makes contact with the ball.

3) To fully utilize rotational energy in the torso, it seems that you would have to have your back completely turned towards the net, so that you are actually facing in the exact opposite direction of your stroke! This has obvious disadvantages.

You dont have to be completely open. However, with a shoulder turn that sends the front shoulder under the chin, that should be your signal that you have a sufficient shoulder turn.

4) with a torsional twist, you compromise your balance quite severely.

Yes, too much of it can pull you away from the ball and you can easily lose the linear arm path along with it. That is why it is a stroke that needs to be practiced and understood not only from a mechanics point of view but when the best time to use this kind of stroke is like for the return of serve. Hence the reason I questionned your footwork. You don't want to hit from an open stance onehander all the time.

nevertheless, my body still believes that rotation provides more power than a linear drive. The only way I can fix this implicit, or procedural ignorance, is to experiment more carefully with a linear drive and master its kinetic flow. And even if the linear drive is less powerful, it certainly has the advantages listed above.

To a certain degree. The ball still has to still stay in the court. Also, linear power is more efficient. So use it in this stroke. You don't need much to get a lot in other words. That is why you use the open stance for pulling ground power up through the body (feet, legs, torso) and linear momentum to hit cleanly and on-time. You don't need much. Just maintain good technique.

is this the revolutionary tennis site? Will check it out. Thanks for the feedback.

Not sure what you mean by that.

spacediver
10-27-2009, 05:02 PM
thanks BB.

I was referring to this site (http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/), but on googling, I think this is yandell's site:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2009, 05:06 PM
thanks BB.

I was referring to this site (http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/), but on googling, I think this is yandell's site:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/

I dont know if this is Revolutionary Tennis stuff. Quite frankly, this is information from my study notes. I was going to write an article on this for Yandell's site as he had all the material I needed to show what the stroke was doing. I just never got around to do it. Perhaps, I should and John would let me. I already have a backhand article on that site.

skuludo
10-29-2009, 02:27 AM
Is it ok to never open the shoulder on the OBH?

jserve
10-29-2009, 03:28 AM
Is it ok to never open the shoulder on the OBH?

I wouldn't recommend it on a 1 hander.

skuludo
10-31-2009, 12:41 AM
I wouldn't recommend it on a 1 hander.

What is wrong with that?
Is it slow recovery?

How about wait for the shot to fly off the racket and then open the shoulder so it doesn't affect the shot?

2ndServe
10-31-2009, 06:12 PM
I've never seen a good open stance 1hb. There is a reason you don't see it on tour.

Bungalo Bill
11-01-2009, 03:06 PM
The open stance backhand is on tour and at other levels. True it isn't a stroke that one should make as their staple backhand, however, for some players, the open stance backhand is a stroke one can perform if they use good technique.

The open stance backhand is most often seen when performed for the return of serve.

jazzyfunkybluesy
11-01-2009, 04:13 PM
Open stance backhand is hard to replicate consistently and torque is created only by your shoulder and arm.

skuludo
11-02-2009, 08:25 AM
What is wrong with never opening the shoulder closed during contact when using a one handed backhand?
Is it really that bad that it's not recommended like what jserve said?
I'll keep that in mind and open my shoulders earlier next time.

EikelBeiter
11-02-2009, 08:53 AM
You're not using your left arm enough as a break

nyc
11-02-2009, 09:02 AM
Sweet catch at 2:06! Put a smile on my face...unfortunately immediately followed by a cringe-inducing, unbalanced BH at 2:12...I'd focus on being balanced on your BHs...

spacediver
11-02-2009, 10:10 PM
yes, that cringe inducing backhand was a massive failure of prediction. I realized too late that I was too far forward and had to compensate from a bad position. Glad you liked the catch!