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JennyS
11-04-2009, 09:07 AM
Here's why:

With the sports media making a huge deal out of the Yankees starters only having 3 days of rest during the World Series, it got me wondering how many strokes the tennis players hit in a match. I figured that between serving and groundstrokes/volleys, they probably hit a couple of hundred shots even in a blowout match. Yet top players often have to play 4-5 days in a row in one week tournaments.

And since I uploaded the Nadal/Djoker Madrid match, I decided to count how many shots Nadal hit and here's what I counted:

serves: 169
groundstrokes/returns/Volleys: 753

This has to take more out of an athlete than throwing 90-100 pitches in a baseball game, right? I think the fact that tennis players often play a few days in a row gets overlooked. It really is a grueling game!

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Baseball-pitchers??
Uhrm ok...ill probably get bashed by Americans for saying this but wtf, pitching a ball and earning millions of dollars...uhrm yeah ok...:shock:
Guess its an American thing.

Carsomyr
11-04-2009, 09:19 AM
This is obvious; when a 230 lb. beer gut can throw a perfect game "half drunk" (his words) and another guy who looks like a professional bowler is considered the one of the greatest pitchers of the last 20 years and of all time, you know it is not the most taxing of sports.

Mr.Brightside
11-04-2009, 09:20 AM
nah, i'm american and i don't understand it either

The_Steak
11-04-2009, 09:20 AM
Here's why:

With the sports media making a huge deal out of the Yankees starters only having 3 days of rest during the World Series, it got me wondering how many strokes the tennis players hit in a match. I figured that between serving and groundstrokes/volleys, they probably hit a couple of hundred shots even in a blowout match. Yet top players often have to play 4-5 days in a row in one week tournaments.

And since I uploaded the Nadal/Djoker Madrid match, I decided to count how many shots Nadal hit and here's what I counted:

serves: 169
groundstrokes/returns/Volleys: 753

This has to take more out of an athlete than throwing 90-100 pitches in a baseball game, right? I think the fact that tennis players often play a few days in a row gets overlooked. It really is a grueling game!

You have to throw your arm out every pitch...

Not on a groundstroke, volley, and return, or even the serve.

Cup8489
11-04-2009, 09:21 AM
Baseball-pitchers??
Uhrm ok...ill probably get bashed by Americans for saying this but wtf, pitching a ball and earning millions of dollars...uhrm yeah ok...:shock:
Guess its an American thing.

pitching a ball VERY WELL gets you money. i can pitch decent, but not compared to those guys. when's the last time you threw a 90 mph slider? i thought so.

but yes, baseball pitchers do seem to have to do less, but on the serve in tennis i'm sure most of you dont hit as hard as you possibly can EVERY, single, serve. pitchers need alot of arm speed to throw as hard as they do, and don't have a racket to help them out.

hifi heretic
11-04-2009, 09:29 AM
What timing! My son and I were just discussing this as well.

..I think pitching a baseball at MLB speeds is indeed harder on the body than serving a tennis ball at ATP speeds. ..As evidence, consider that many many pro pitchers have mangled rotator cuffs by the time they quit the game. Still, I don't think it is SO much tougher as to explain how much a MLB pitcher is coddled. ..And as for the big guts on many of these players (all positions, not just pitcher) it's embarrassing. I couldn't call myself an athlete looking like that. All things considered, tennis players - in my opinion - are better athletes.

Part of it may be that there are simply more pitchers to draw from so you might as well rest them as much as you can. There are 30 MLB teams, each with 10 - 15 pitchers on staff?? That's about 400 players in the majors making a living JUST for pitching. They don't need to do anything else well but pitch. In tennis, you have maybe the top 200 IN THE WORLD who make decent livings as touring pros. ..Clearly, an ATP players set of skills is rarer and harder to come by

JennyS
11-04-2009, 09:33 AM
I think the combination of serving, hitting groundstrokes and running is a lot tougher on the body than pitching and spending at least half the game sitting on the bench.

Haasquet
11-04-2009, 09:44 AM
I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I'd like to point out that tennis racquets are pretty huge levers for getting the ball up to speed.

Pitchers throw heavier objects without the benefit of a racquet to provide leverage. If you haven't pitched a ball game before, you can't really get an accurate feeling for how rough it is on the arm...

Vyse
11-04-2009, 09:44 AM
I agree. Some fielders are pretty athletic but yes, tennis is much more grueling. It was the 7th ranked sport on that ESPN toughest sport list. Baseball was not near that high

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-04-2009, 01:07 PM
when's the last time you threw a 90 mph slider? i thought so.

Never, ive never even held a baseball in my hands. I dont even know what a 90 mph slider is and that was not my point.

Serendipitous
11-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Tennis players get paid pennies compared to football, baseball, and basketball players.

Pennies.

:cry::cry::cry::cry:

davey
11-04-2009, 01:32 PM
Pitching isn't too hard on the body overall but is very hard on the shoulder and elbow. After every game the starting pitchers are icing down their shoulders and elbow. They then rest for 4 days before starting again. Every year dozens of pitchers have either elbow or shoulder surgery. There's an elbow surgical procedure named after the first pitcher is was ever performed on, Tommy John, around which there is an whole niche medical industry just because of the strain pitching puts on the elbow.

If a tennis player has bad form in a stroke, they could develop some soreness and on the rare occasion, require surgery(sharapova) but that is easily remedied. Even pitchers that are perceived to have perfect form become injured(Mark Prior). The history of baseball is filled with pitchers with great arms and tons of potential whose careers ended early due to arm injuries or came no where near what was expected of them by the time they retired. For every major leaguer that you have heard of whose career was shortened due to arm injuries there are a dozen minor leaguers that never made it because they got hurt.

Yes, running around a hard court is hard on the body, but most players can handle it. Nadal's problems is the exception and not typical.

Djokovicfan4life
11-04-2009, 01:38 PM
You actually counted the strokes? Wow.

This is interesting stuff, but man, you've got way too much time on your hands. :)

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-04-2009, 01:44 PM
This is interesting stuff, but man, you've got way too much time on your hands. :)
Shes not a "man", shes a woman.
And i think her threads are awesome, to much time on her hand? Or MAYBE she is actually really a fan of the game of tennis?

SuperFly
11-04-2009, 02:30 PM
This is, in fact, obvious. When you can throw a no-hitter against a pretty decent team on LSD (http://www.snopes.com/sports/baseball/ellis.asp) then pitchers don't have to be great athletes.

Vermillion
11-04-2009, 02:35 PM
I wanted to try pitching once so I went out a bought a baseball. My shoulder/arm became very tired/sored after about 12 pitches. I don't think my form was atrocious, but still. Very taxing on the arm.

tacou
11-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Baseball-pitchers??
Uhrm ok...ill probably get bashed by Americans for saying this but wtf, pitching a ball and earning millions of dollars...uhrm yeah ok...:shock:
Guess its an American thing.

not bashing you because to each his own, and I don't find baseball very interesting, but pitching is a very hard technique to master. you don't need to be in nearly as good shape as a tennis player but pitching destroys your shoulder. throwing a ball 90+mph WITH movement is insane.

I guess football, just kicking a ball, is a european thing, right?

borg number one
11-04-2009, 02:42 PM
Vyse, for what its worth, see:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills

I think its very subjective though. Its based on "the word of our panel of experts, a group made up of sports scientists from the United States Olympic Committee, of academicians who study the science of muscles and movement, of a star two-sport athlete, and of journalists who spend their professional lives watching athletes succeed and fail."



This ESPN survey was based on the following criterion:
ENDURANCE: The ability to continue to perform a skill or action for long periods of time. Example: Lance Armstrong
STRENGTH: The ability to produce force. Example: NFL linebackers.
POWER: The ability to produce strength in the shortest possible time. Example: Barry Bonds.
SPEED: The ability to move quickly. Example: Marion Jones, Maurice Green.
AGILITY: The ability to change direction quickly. Example: Derek Jeter, Mia Hamm.
FLEXIBILITY: The ability to stretch the joints across a large range of motion. Example: Gymnasts, divers.
NERVE: The ability to overcome fear. Example: High-board divers, race-car drivers, ski jumpers.
DURABILITY: The ability to withstand physical punishment over a long period of time. Example: NBA/NHL players.
HAND-EYE COORDINATION: The ability to react quickly to sensory perception. Example: A hitter reacting to a breaking pitch; a drag racer timing acceleration to the green light.
ANALYTIC APTITUDE: The ability to evaluate and react appropriately to strategic situations. Example: Joe Montana reading a defense; basketball point guard on a fast break.

JennyS
11-04-2009, 02:48 PM
Shes not a "man", shes a woman.
And i think her threads are awesome, to much time on her hand? Or MAYBE she is actually really a fan of the game of tennis?

Thank you! I was off from work today, plus it really didn't take that much time to count the strokes because I watched my "just the tennis" version of the match from You Tube.

Jchurch
11-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Never, ive never even held a baseball in my hands. I dont even know what a 90 mph slider is and that was not my point.


You're essentially just like the people who think tennis requires no skill. I can't tell you how many people I know that assume if you're a good athlete, that you'll be great at tennis.

You think Federer and Nadal can make the ball drop quickly with all their top spin, look up some pitchers with great sliders or curve balls.

And for the record, I like tennis a hell of a lot more than baseball. However pitching isn't easy.

edmondsm
11-04-2009, 04:22 PM
Pitching in the major leagues is incredibly tough on your throwing arm. Many great pitchers get to the majors and simply can't be starters because their arm will not tolerate it. Throwing a heavy baseball as hard as you can puts huge strain on your arm. There are little-leaguers in this country that ruin their arms before their 16th birthday, even sooner.

I dislike baseball as much as the next guy. But pro baseball players are pretty tough dudes, and gifted athletes.

NamRanger
11-04-2009, 04:27 PM
Baseball-pitchers??
Uhrm ok...ill probably get bashed by Americans for saying this but wtf, pitching a ball and earning millions of dollars...uhrm yeah ok...:shock:
Guess its an American thing.



Hate to show how ignorant you are but baseball is an international sport and I'm pretty sure the Japanese have won the World Baseball Classic back to back (international tournament).

andrew_fernando2
11-04-2009, 05:07 PM
tennis players are certainly better athletes and most baseball players would agree because of the level of difficulty required to play baseball. but to assert that they are tougher is quite a stretch.

consider throwing a baseball at 5.5 ounces with your forearm to serving a tennis ball at 2.1 ounces with a racquet as a lever and the well documented evidence of injury should be well within conceptual grasp.

for those not familiar, if you are ever able to go to a batting cage (surely not possible for many here) step into a cage that throws even seventy miles per hour and you will find it dangerously fast.

andrew_fernando2
11-04-2009, 05:08 PM
tennis players are certainly better athletes and most baseball players would agree because of the level of difficulty required to play baseball. but to assert that they are tougher is quite a stretch.

consider throwing a baseball at 5.5 ounces with your forearm as a lever to serving a tennis ball at 2.1 ounces with a racquet as a lever and the well documented evidence of injury should be well within conceptual grasp.

for those not familiar, if you are ever able to go to a batting cage (surely not possible for many here) step into a cage that throws even seventy miles per hour and you will find it dangerously fast.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

svijk
11-04-2009, 05:29 PM
Good insightful thread.

Let me say I am a much bigger tennis fan than baseball but the comparison is not fair.

Throwing 100 pitches at 90 mph average does take a toll especially since you have to be accurate too. I guess you can throw with even 2 days rest but given what is at stake (one hit can change the game), it is important to give the arm optimum rest.

Pitching puts a strain on one muscle group mostly where as hitting the ball with a racquet , sometimes with 2 hands is more of a balanced effort.

To prove it to yourself, try hurling a ball at a 2ft by 2ft target about 50 ft away, as hard as you can and see how many times you hit and how many pitches you can throw without reducing speed.

lawrence
11-04-2009, 06:32 PM
that ESPN list is bogus, rugby is so many places behind, the endurance on rugby should be at least a few points higher too

autumn_leaf
11-04-2009, 06:42 PM
Here's why:


serves: 169
groundstrokes/returns/Volleys: 753

This has to take more out of an athlete than throwing 90-100 pitches in a baseball game, right? I think the fact that tennis players often play a few days in a row gets overlooked. It really is a grueling game!

it really depends. we have like a 2ft lever to deliver the serves and groundstrokes which makes a pretty big difference. i've seen a decent amount of young pitchers ruin their shoulders in early age due to overtaxing their shoulders.

kOaMaster
11-05-2009, 02:46 AM
it's not even close worth a comparison, look at baseball fatties like bonds.
about as stupid as the golf-discussion.

having a big shoulder does not make you though.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 05:08 AM
I guess football, just kicking a ball, is a european thing, right?
LOL, Yeah you got me there. BUT NO. Football is the biggest global sport there is in except for USA/Canada, and the footbaal stars are THE biggest stars in the world (except again for North-America)
Ever heard of Ronaldo? Beckham? Kaka? Messi?
The audience who are watching the World Cup is 15-20 timmes bigger than the World Series or Super Bowl or whatever.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 05:12 AM
Hate to show how ignorant you are but baseball is an international sport and I'm pretty sure the Japanese have won the World Baseball Classic back to back (international tournament).
OK i am ignorant. I still will never be able to respect just throwing a ball that spins or whatever making millions of it, imo just like Bowling or Dart where the elite drink 5 beers a day and are 50 Ibs overweight.

NamRanger
11-05-2009, 05:37 AM
OK i am ignorant. I still will never be able to respect just throwing a ball that spins or whatever making millions of it, imo just like Bowling or Dart where the elite drink 5 beers a day and are 50 Ibs overweight.



Roger Federer gets paid millions of dollars to hit a ball with a 90 square inch racquet. I don't really see the difference here.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 05:38 AM
Roger Federer gets paid millions of dollars to hit a ball with a 90 square inch racquet. I don't really see the difference here.
Wait wait wait...are you comparing Roger Federer to a baseball-pitcher ???

NamRanger
11-05-2009, 05:44 AM
Wait wait wait...are you comparing Roger Federer to a baseball-pitcher ???



Yes I am. I certainly do not like baseball, but I guarantee you Roger Federer wouldn't be able to throw as well as any MLB pitcher.

JRstriker12
11-05-2009, 05:44 AM
Baseball-pitchers??
Uhrm ok...ill probably get bashed by Americans for saying this but wtf, pitching a ball and earning millions of dollars...uhrm yeah ok...:shock:
Guess its an American thing.

Don't these guys make some change????? Not only an american thing.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/6548424_36_3.jpg

IMHO- Pitching is probably harder on the arm but Tennis is much harder on the body overall.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 05:49 AM
Yes I am. I certainly do not like baseball, but I guarantee you Roger Federer wouldn't be able to throw as well as any MLB pitcher.
From what I understand a baseball-pitcher only throws a ball.
What does Federer do? He hits with forehands with precise accuracy and perfect technique,backhands, serves, volleys,slices,dropshots,slices,blocks, he runs, he jumps and he does this hundreds of times during a match and he always has to adapt as to where his opponents shots are landing except on the serve. How many pitches does a pitcher throw during a game? 10-15?
Ridiculous!

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 05:51 AM
Don't these guys make some change????? Not only an american thing.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/6548424_36_3.jpg

IMHO- Pitching is probably harder on the arm but Tennis is much harder on the body overall.

Thats cricket-where they use a totally different technique than baseball.

NamRanger
11-05-2009, 06:01 AM
From what I understand a baseball-pitcher only throws a ball.
What does Federer do? He hits with forehands with precise accuracy and perfect technique,backhands, serves, volleys,slices,dropshots,slices,blocks, he runs, he jumps and he does this hundreds of times during a match and he always has to adapt as to where his opponents shots are landing except on the serve. How many pitches does a pitcher throw during a game? 10-15?
Ridiculous!



A. The pitcher puts an enormous amount of pressure on his shoulder and elbow when pitching. Federer does not go all out on 50+ groundstrokes in a row. A pitcher does.


B. A pitcher has to throw with precise accuracy and perfect technique. He can throw all sorts of different spins at you.


C. Not just that, the pitcher's box is also not totally accurate due to the fact that it is a judgment call by the Umpire. That is another difficulty he must face.


D. A pitcher must also be aware of someone trying to steal a base. If he throws too soon, someone could steal a base.


E. Pitcher's do not throw 10-15 pitches per game. Try 40-50.


F. Pitcher's also have to play defense and be aware of where their teammates are.




I'm not saying baseball is more physically tougher than tennis (because it's not IMO), however on a skill level, both are on a very similar level. Pitching is incredibly difficult to do, and that's why there are only a few men in the world who are capable of doing it day in and day out.

inthemisosoup
11-05-2009, 06:05 AM
the skills required for tennis and baseball pitching are different, and the skill and/or finesse required for such different sports should not be compared. suffice it to say that both sports require a lot of athletic skill, and baseball pitchers are undoubtedly talented. yes, they may need to have as much overall athleticism as a professional tennis player, but that does NOT mean they aren't as "strong" and don't exert themselves as a professional tennis player. how can you compare pitching a ball and hitting a ball with a tennis racquet? it is completely arbitrary . . . like i said before.

magician . . . just because you don't understand or particularly like a sport doesn't mean you should doubt the skill required of its athletes or the legitimacy of the sport. there are plenty of sports i don't watch, or don't particularly like--eg american football, rugby, hockey, but that doesn't mean their athletes are not talented (sure, the best of the best of their sports are as talented and skilled as federer has been, just in different ways being that each sport requires different abilities), or that the sport is not difficult (pitching is extremely difficult, stressful mentally on a pitcher, and extremely grueling on the body). don't be culturally ignorant. you sound like all of those people who don't understand tennis and the skills it requires, so they denounce it as a "sissy" sport that anyone and their grandmother can play. it is so ignorant and off-putting.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 06:05 AM
A. The pitcher puts an enormous amount of pressure on his shoulder and elbow when pitching. Federer does not go all out on 50+ groundstrokes in a row. A pitcher does.


B. A pitcher has to throw with precise accuracy and perfect technique. He can throw all sorts of different spins at you.


C. Not just that, the pitcher's box is also not totally accurate due to the fact that it is a judgment call by the Umpire. That is another difficulty he must face.


D. A pitcher must also be aware of someone trying to steal a base. If he throws too soon, someone could steal a base.


E. Pitcher's do not throw 10-15 pitches per game. Try 40-50.


F. Pitcher's also have to play defense and be aware of where their teammates are.

Ok, i guess you are making some good points and to be fair i know to little about pitching to have a case really and to continue debating it, but from what ive seen it doesnt look like rocket-science-so you are saying that pitchers are better athletes than Federer and should make more money?

inthemisosoup
11-05-2009, 06:06 AM
^meant to say, don't exert themselves AS MUCH as a professional tennis player. oops. :)

tacou
11-05-2009, 06:40 AM
it's not even close worth a comparison, look at baseball fatties like bonds.
about as stupid as the golf-discussion.

having a big shoulder does not make you though.

bonds is not a pitcher?

JRstriker12
11-05-2009, 06:41 AM
Thats cricket-where they use a totally different technique than baseball.

I know it's cricket.
I know the technique is different.

But it's still a dude throwing a ball and making money - same/same.
A cricket bowler and a pitcher prob have more in common than a pitcher and a tennis player.

tacou
11-05-2009, 06:41 AM
LOL, Yeah you got me there. BUT NO. Football is the biggest global sport there is in except for USA/Canada, and the footbaal stars are THE biggest stars in the world (except again for North-America)
Ever heard of Ronaldo? Beckham? Kaka? Messi?
The audience who are watching the World Cup is 15-20 timmes bigger than the World Series or Super Bowl or whatever.

ugh I was being sarcastic I love football. you're reducing pitching to simply throwing a ball, which it is not, the same as I simplified football to kicking a ball.

TheFifthSet
11-05-2009, 06:50 AM
Ok, i guess you are making some good points and to be fair i know to little about pitching to have a case really and to continue debating it, but from what ive seen it doesnt look like rocket-science-so you are saying that pitchers are better athletes than Federer and should make more money?

Why are you arguing with such vigor if you admit you know nothing about it?

boredone3456
11-05-2009, 06:55 AM
Pitchers put a lot of physical stress on their shoulder, it is physically wearing. I used to play tennis and do little league at the same time, and while its not comparable to the pros I remember I did feel exertion and both were tiring. Pitchers do put a lot of stress on their body. Now if we talk about tennis players vs like, a DH in baseball, or just a batter in baseball in general, no contest the tennis player wins everytime (I mean Andy Roddick could probably be a great baseball player if he wanted to...Manny Ramirez would be a terribly tennis player), but a pitcher does put a lot of stress on their shoulder, especially a starter who throws the ball over 100 times in a game.

kOaMaster
11-05-2009, 06:58 AM
bonds is not a pitcher?

I know that. was just point out what others are involved in this "sport". I've lived my time in the US, I did watch baseball a lot (or was in a stadium where beside talking and eating guys threw balls around) and still follow it. It's definetly not unattractive (crickett I call unattractive!) but come on and be honest with yourself, overall baseball is nowhere as "tough".
I do believe there are some pitchers like johnson who're doing a lot but still, how old is he now? 50? that alone shows to me that it can't be that hard.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 07:19 AM
Why are you arguing with such vigor if you admit you know nothing about it?
Because my spontaneous reaction ws-ridiculous to even compare !

tacou
11-05-2009, 08:38 AM
I know that. was just point out what others are involved in this "sport". I've lived my time in the US, I did watch baseball a lot (or was in a stadium where beside talking and eating guys threw balls around) and still follow it. It's definetly not unattractive (crickett I call unattractive!) but come on and be honest with yourself, overall baseball is nowhere as "tough".
I do believe there are some pitchers like johnson who're doing a lot but still, how old is he now? 50? that alone shows to me that it can't be that hard.

Johnson is 46 (pretty close) but as you said, tennis is not as "tough" as tennis, something I'm not trying to argue. I think any sport at a professional level is extremely difficult and you must be a gifted athlete to perform, let alone Johnson who last year (aged 45) led the league in strike outs per 9 innings pitched. Him being old in no way discredits what talent it takes to be a pitcher, in my opinion. You need strength and endurance in different measures/areas of the body in pitching than in tennis.

I'd never argue an average baseball player (especially a pitcher) is in better physical shape than an average tennis player, but to say it's "easier" to serve a tennis ball or less draining than pitching a professional fast-ball is ignorant.

edmondsm
11-05-2009, 08:41 AM
From what I understand a baseball-pitcher only throws a ball.
What does Federer do? He hits with forehands with precise accuracy and perfect technique,backhands, serves, volleys,slices,dropshots,slices,blocks, he runs, he jumps and he does this hundreds of times during a match and he always has to adapt as to where his opponents shots are landing except on the serve. How many pitches does a pitcher throw during a game? 10-15?
Ridiculous!

A pitcher throws fastballs, curveballs, sliders, change-ups. Depending on the rules, they have to bat and run bases as well. And they throw more then a 100 pitches in a game depending on the situation. Rarely would a pitcher throw fewer then 30 pitches in a game. 10-15!? You are obviously very ignorant and biased on the subject and therefore shouldn't be arguing with people who know both sports. Sorry, you are wrong on this one.

edmondsm
11-05-2009, 08:48 AM
Ok, i guess you are making some good points and to be fair i know to little about pitching to have a case really and to continue debating it, but from what ive seen it doesnt look like rocket-science-so you are saying that pitchers are better athletes than Federer and should make more money?

Since when does the better athlete make more money? A decathlete probably makes less money then an a janitor, yet they are some of the most impressive athletes in the world.

I hate baseball, and am so glad that the endless season is over. But people in this country like it, and that's why they make tons of money. They're level of athleticism, whatever we score it as, doesn't factor in.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 08:55 AM
Since when does the better athlete make more money? A decathlete probably makes less money then an a janitor, yet they are some of the most impressive athletes in the world.

I hate baseball, and am so glad that the endless season is over. But people in this country like it, and that's why they make tons of money. They're level of athleticism, whatever we score it as, doesn't factor in.
OK, im done with this thread, let the Americans have their baseball.

tacou
11-05-2009, 09:02 AM
thank you so much for your approval Sweden, our inferior American sporting events will never catch on but I appreciate you letting us enjoy it :(

by the way, can Cuba and Japan play? they are prettty good

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 09:08 AM
thank you so much for your approval Sweden, our inferior American sporting events will never catch on but I appreciate you letting us enjoy it :(

by the way, can Cuba and Japan play? they are prettty good
Sorry, didnt mean to offend anyone. I was just truing to say, i dont get what is fun with baseball...Im sure its a great sport and i know that it has strong and rich traditions in USA and Japan.

Cantankersore
11-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Sorry, didnt mean to offend anyone. I was just truing to say, i dont get what is fun with baseball...Im sure its a great sport and i know that it has strong and rich traditions in USA and Japan.

My Swedish office mate is the same way. But like most sports, if you're raised around it, you probably enjoy it, and if you weren't, it may seem strange or boring. The game is also a lot more difficult than it looks, and is quite good at causing injuries, because there are brief periods of going all out, sandwiched between long periods of inactivity.

Jchurch
11-05-2009, 09:40 AM
Sorry, didnt mean to offend anyone. I was just truing to say, i dont get what is fun with baseball...Im sure its a great sport and i know that it has strong and rich traditions in USA and Japan.

Baseball is much more fun to actually play than it is to watch.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 09:40 AM
My Swedish office mate is the same way. But like most sports, if you're raised around it, you probably enjoy it, and if you weren't, it may seem strange or boring. The game is also a lot more difficult than it looks, and is quite good at causing injuries, because there are brief periods of going all out, sandwiched between long periods of inactivity.
I guess this sums it up pretty well. Good post.

Jchurch
11-05-2009, 09:46 AM
My Swedish office mate is the same way. But like most sports, if you're raised around it, you probably enjoy it, and if you weren't, it may seem strange or boring. The game is also a lot more difficult than it looks, and is quite good at causing injuries, because there are brief periods of going all out, sandwiched between long periods of inactivity.

There are some pretty grotesque injuries that happen in baseball that would probably never happen in tennis.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/10/gal_kendall.jpg

Anyone remember what happened when Jason Kendall stepped on first base awkwardly.

I still think I'd have better luck trying to return a 120+ mph serve over trying to hit a 90 mph fastball.

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 09:51 AM
I grew up playing all the major sports here in the U.S. Throwing a baseball 90 plus miles and hour 100 times accurately enough to be in the major leagues is one of the greatest sports accomplishments there is in sports.

This is the reason a big fat ******* like CC Sabathia gets 16 million a year, because there are so few who can do it that well. The amount of strain that is put on your arm is unbelievable. The amount of tourque on your back and legs is almost as bad. The pitching motion is not just about arm strength,many of the greatest pitchers in history all had one thing in common, big legs and thighs in which to drive towards the plate.

Now I would like to see anyone here try and hit a major league curve ball or fast ball. It is the hardest thing is sports. Think about failing 7 out of every 10 tries and you are one of the best.

Imagine a pro tennis player having a serving percentage of 30 percent. I am a lover of tennis and have been since I was a kid and I was good enough to be no. 1 singles in h.s but when it came to hitting a baseball, I sucked and it wasn't from a lack of effort. When I pitched, after 3 innings my arm would fall off( I threw a nasty curve), baseball is an unbelievably tough sport and I can appreciate how great they are as athletes just like I appreciate how great tennis players are as athletes.

Now when it comes to the toughest mo fo's on the planet, that would be hockey players, that is a whole other world.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 09:55 AM
Now when it comes to the toughest mo fo's on the planet, that would be hockey players, that is a whole other world.

No, that would be Rugby-players, real Rugby without any protection.

IvanAndreevich
11-05-2009, 09:58 AM
I'll go make a thread: why tennis players are tougher than first graders.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 09:59 AM
I'll go make a thread: why tennis players are tougher than first graders.
Tennisplayers job isnt to be tough in case youve missed it.

mucat
11-05-2009, 10:00 AM
The other day, I heard on the radio someone not so young played the professional (minor) league for the first time and either got a shutout or something good.

Try that with tennis. Tennis is a very very skilled sport. You just cannot pick up a racket and be good at it. Combine that with lots of running, sliding, hitting, jumping and it is tough.

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 10:00 AM
magician, while rugby is a very physical sport, it is not in the same league as hockey or even American football. Have you ever played either? I have played rugby and yes you have to be in incredible shape, but you cannot get killed like you can in either hockey or football.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 10:04 AM
magician, while rugby is a very physical sport, it is not in the same league as hockey or even American football. Have you ever played either? I have played rugby and yes you have to be in incredible shape, but you cannot get killed like you can in either hockey or football.
If you are unlucky enough just about any sport will kill you.
How about MMA then?
So are you saying that Sidney Crosby is as bad of a mo-fo as for example the MVP of the French English or New Zealand Rugby-team? Just asking, im not saying you are wrong.

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 10:05 AM
The other day, I heard on the radio someone not so young played the professional (minor) league for the first time and either got a shutout or something good.

Try that with tennis. Tennis is a very very skilled sport. You just cannot pick up a racket and be good at it. Combine that with lots of running, sliding, hitting, jumping and it is tough.

mucat, do you have any idea how long you have to train to even get into the minors in baseball? It takes years before you can even make it to single A ball, then it can take time to get to AA, then longer still till AAA then you may never even get a sniff of the majors.

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 10:07 AM
If you are unlucky enough just about any sport will kill you.
How about MMA then?
So are you saying that Sidney Crosby is as bad of a mo-fo as for example the MVP of the French English or New Zealand Rugby-team? Just asking, im not saying you are wrong.

I am saying that Sidney is as bad as your rugby guys yes and has way more skill to boot.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 10:21 AM
I am saying that Sidney is as bad as your rugby guys yes and has way more skill to boot.
With this statement i think you are out hiking...and i hugely disagree.
When it comes to skills tennisplayers are in a league of their own imo.

kingdaddy41788
11-05-2009, 10:24 AM
You have to throw your arm out every pitch...

Not on a groundstroke, volley, and return, or even the serve.

Exactly. It's very grueling...

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 10:28 AM
I agree tennis players are right at the top when it comes to skills and athletic ability,but there are also many others in the conversation.

Of all the sports I have played, and I think I have played almost everyone the toughest to play well is still golf. I am not saying golf is physically tough, but as far as mental it is a killer.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 10:31 AM
I agree tennis players are right at the top when it comes to skills and athletic ability,but there are also many others in the conversation.

Of all the sports I have played, and I think I have played almost everyone the toughest to play well is still golf. I am not saying golf is physically tough, but as far as mental it is a killer.
Golf is definetely the most mental tough one-i agree.
But do you think it would be the same at the very highest level as far as toughness is concerned on "recreational"-level?

tacou
11-05-2009, 10:37 AM
The other day, I heard on the radio someone not so young played the professional (minor) league for the first time and either got a shutout or something good.

Try that with tennis. Tennis is a very very skilled sport. You just cannot pick up a racket and be good at it. Combine that with lots of running, sliding, hitting, jumping and it is tough.

some old person in his first game in triple A pitched something good? sweet argument.

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 10:46 AM
Golf is definetely the most mental tough one-i agree.
But do you think it would be the same at the very highest level as far as toughness is concerned on "recreational"-level?

All I know is that I have been playing golf for 40 years and even at a recreation level ( 9 handicap ) it is still the most aggravating game on the planet. I hate it. heheh

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 10:50 AM
All I know is that I have been playing golf for 40 years and even at a recreation level ( 9 handicap ) it is still the most aggravating game on the planet. I hate it. heheh
Yeah, im the first one to agree with this. Ive played pro tennis for 5 years with a world-ranking in doubles and when i was 14 i tried playing golf a few times since my uncle is a former pro on the European Tour but it was the worse thing ive ever done in my life and i threw the club as long as i could, i had no idea that it would **** people off. My nephew became really ****ed, when we see eachother these days he usually says-care for a round of Golf Freddi!? :shock:

NamRanger
11-05-2009, 11:13 AM
Ok, i guess you are making some good points and to be fair i know to little about pitching to have a case really and to continue debating it, but from what ive seen it doesnt look like rocket-science-so you are saying that pitchers are better athletes than Federer and should make more money?



Baseball is a bigger market and therefore brings in more money. Simple economics.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-05-2009, 11:16 AM
Baseball is a bigger market and therefore brings in more money. Simple economics.
Bigger market where?? In middle-America??:-?
No idea where you live, where DO u live? There is a huge world outside of USA, its true!

cigrmaster
11-05-2009, 11:17 AM
You are lucky you gave it up when you did, I have spent a lifetime letting it aggravate me. I even went as far as joining a country club and spent big money to be tortured on a daily basis. I finally gave it up and went back to tennis. I no longer ride around for 4.5 hours drinking beer and smoking cigars as my daily exercise.

tacou
11-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Bigger market where?? In middle-America??:-?
No idea where you live, where DO u live? There is a huge world outside of USA, its true!

um yes? Clubhouses can afford to pay players millions and millions of dollars and still turn a huge profit just off of concessions/ticket sales. So they do. Tennis players play all year long and travel all over the world for not even a fraction of what some ball players get paid because otherwise tennis venues would not make a profit.

ttbrowne
11-05-2009, 01:10 PM
Pitching in Major League Baseball is a lot tougher on your arm than serving in the ATP tour. If you don't believe me, then get a baseball, go to a pitching mound and throw it almost as hard as you can 50 times. Then throw a slider 50 times. Actually, switch back and forth just to make it seem real.
See how your arm feels the rest of the day. You'll be toast...for a couple of days.
The torque your arm goes thru when pitching is rough.

If your in the Tulsa area, let me know...I'll dig out my old catcher gear and catch for you.

ReopeningWed
11-05-2009, 01:26 PM
Never, ive never even held a baseball in my hands. I dont even know what a 90 mph slider is and that was not my point.

When was the last time one of us even HIT a 90 mph slider? Not as easy as it sounds, even for tennis.

hifi heretic
11-05-2009, 01:29 PM
Pitching in Major League Baseball is a lot tougher on your arm than serving in the ATP tour.

Pitching may be harder on the arm than serving, but I maintain that it's harder to become a pro-level tennis player than than to become a pro-level pitcher. ..Each major league baseball team has 20-30 pitchers on staff, about 900 in all of major league baseball. ..And there are scads more making reasonably decent livings in the minor leagues. For an ATP tennis player to earn $3m/ year (the average earned by a MLB pitcher) you have to be near the top 25 in the world.

Djokovicfan4life
11-05-2009, 01:30 PM
Shes not a "man", shes a woman.
And i think her threads are awesome, to much time on her hand? Or MAYBE she is actually really a fan of the game of tennis?

Thank you! I was off from work today, plus it really didn't take that much time to count the strokes because I watched my "just the tennis" version of the match from You Tube.

I was just messing around, Jenny. I also was not calling you a man, that was just my way of showing my surprise that you counted the strokes.

Peace. :)

goober
11-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Pitching may be harder on the arm than serving, but I maintain that it's harder to become a pro-level tennis player than than to become a pro-level pitcher. ..Each major league baseball team has 20-30 pitchers on staff, about 900 in all of major league baseball. ..And there are scads more making reasonably decent livings in the minor leagues. For an ATP tennis player to earn $3m/ year (the average earned by a MLB pitcher) you have to be near the top 25 in the world.

Well why do you think most of the best athletes in the US are in basketball, football and baseball. You have the best chance at a pro sport, making lots of money and become a celebrity. How many current US tennis mens players do you think the public knows? Roddick and maybe Blake- most of them probably wouldn't even know those two. Everybody else is a nobody that makes ok money or barely scraping by.

kOaMaster
11-05-2009, 02:40 PM
I'd never argue an average baseball player (especially a pitcher) is in better physical shape than an average tennis player, but to say it's "easier" to serve a tennis ball or less draining than pitching a professional fast-ball is ignorant.

okay then. I would also never argue about this part. in every disciplin/sport (does not even have to be a sport per se) where many people are contesting for the best it's difficult to be on top. I just think if you throw in the word "tough" for baseball <-> tennis, the 2nd would be the natural decision since it's the more appropriate adjective.

NamRanger
11-05-2009, 03:12 PM
Bigger market where?? In middle-America??:-?
No idea where you live, where DO u live? There is a huge world outside of USA, its true!




And you happen to know most of the U.S.'s top players come from Cuba, Japan, and other foreign countries right? Oops. Somebody's displaying a massive amount of ignorance.



The U.S. Football Market alone is much bigger than Tennis. Baseball as a whole entity (it is surprisingly popular outside the United States) is probably something like 20x bigger than tennis economically.

Yenster
11-05-2009, 08:11 PM
I played both sports at "high" levels. Pitching is baseball is really difficult, curveballs, splitters, sliders, throwing your fastball fast, is really hard. And to place it? That's the most difficult part. YOu have to change your arm angle, use your legs and hips, and study hitters beforehand. Tennis, on the other hand, is more physical.

Yenster
11-05-2009, 08:30 PM
TheMagicianOfPrecision, you are clearly biased and ignorant and you shouldn't be arguing in this thread because you haven't even picked up a baseball.

Lsmkenpo
11-05-2009, 10:05 PM
Pretty ignorant thread, pitching at a major league level requires natural born talent, throwing 90+ mph is not something that can be taught.

A pro tennis player can be made out of an average athlete if they start at a young age and have the desire.

Major league pitchers are born not made.

Hitting a baseball is the most difficult challenge in all of sports, because of major league pitchers.

kOaMaster
11-06-2009, 02:30 AM
Pretty ignorant thread

and you just did your part to make it even worse. congratulation!

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-06-2009, 05:20 AM
TheMagicianOfPrecision, you are clearly biased and ignorant and you shouldn't be arguing in this thread because you haven't even picked up a baseball.
OK, maybe I shouldnt, just that some topics really gets me going. You are right though.

goober
11-06-2009, 05:28 AM
..Go to a team's roster and count the pitchers. ..It's true that they are not all active at one time (many on injured reserve), but - unless I'm reading this incorrectly - they're listed on the roster. The point I was making is that there are considerably more employment opportunities as a pro pitcher than there are for ATP pros.

here's the Phillies roster:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/rosters/philadelphia-phillies/byPOSN_ABRV.html

MLB teams can only have a 25 man active roster. The total roster is 40 man which includes disabled list and optional assigment players. That roster is not a reflection of the 40 man roster since typically teams will carry 4-5 starters and 4-8 relievers. Many of those players on that roster probably are in the minor leagues.

Yes there are more opportunities to be a pro baseball palyer than a pro tennis player, but there is also a lot more competition. Almost every kid is exposed to baseball in America growing up. Not true for tennis. Also being a MLB pitcher for 99% of the pro players is something you either have or you don't. So yes you have the opportunities only if you have the arm for it otherwise your opportunities are zero.