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View Full Version : where are the advanced forehand threads?


2ndServe
11-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Currently it's a very capable shot, even above average in terms of spin and pace. But in today's advanced game, you can't be a dominant player without a dominant forehand IMO.

I'd like to start playing and improving again, currently I'm not loading it like I should for the modern game. I need it to be a real weapon. Right now I'm looking into properly loading it and getting massive amounts of racket head, power and spin, I can always find consistency latter with practice.


If you can point me to any articles, tips or slow mo frame by frame video.

Thanks

5263
11-05-2009, 01:34 PM
You may be right, but I don't agree with the idea of building consistency later. If the Fh stroke is built well, you should be able to work into exceptional power with excellent consistency fairly quick.

LeeD
11-05-2009, 02:51 PM
He might hate me for saying so, but look into BungalowBill's take on the modern openstanced freeswinging forehands. And he's got vids too.

user92626
11-05-2009, 03:33 PM
i;m dealing with the same issue myself. I have enough consistency that I am willing to trade off to learn to increase pace and spin. In a few recent matches there were many points that I clearly saw that I could definitely have won outright if I could hit a tad more pace, instead they became retrievable by opponents.

Discusion point: I think for the coming time I am gonna just swing out fast and furious and adjust from there. I have enough wins in recent days that I can afford loses (if my ego can buy that lol).

federer_FREAK
11-05-2009, 03:47 PM
Go big or go home.

2ndServe
11-05-2009, 04:12 PM
there is a reason why the best coaches in all sports teach young kids to swing all out and then the control wiill come later. You develop a "live" arm, the youger the better. I've seen tennis players, golfers, batters, pitchers who have had major weapons learn to control it, I've never seen it vice versa ( a control player developing a powerful weapon).

I'm willing to take 2 steps backwards if it means the potential upside on my game is increased. I can not feel the torque and loading the back foot doesn't seem to create a lot more power.

naylor
11-05-2009, 04:38 PM
... I've seen tennis players, golfers ... who have had major weapons learn to control it, I've never seen it vice versa ( a control player developing a powerful weapon)...

It's certainly true in golf. Now they first teach you to hit it long (particularly, off the tee) and then they teach you to get it tighter onto the fairway. However, in golf part of the problem is that as the equipment is getting better (drivers hit longer, balls carry longer) the only way they defend the courses is by making them longer, and to play long courses properly you need to hit a long ball - so it all becomes self-fulfilling. There's another way to defend the course - by making it tighter, or with doglegs, so you have to take irons rather than woods off the tee. But that makes it too punitive - and slow and boring (like, looking for balls in the trees) - for the average Joe Public, who only wants to blast the ball, find it, and blast it again!

At least, in tennis, you have lines that provide a boundary to sheer power. You can hit it as hard as you like, but the ball still has to bounce in. And yes, improved equipment and strings help you keep it in, but to get the best of the rackets and strings you still have to develop good technique. If you push it hard but your tennis game is slightly off, you can end up putting lots of balls out. In golf, if you push just as hard when your game is slightly off, you're on the left or right of the fairway but still in play, or you end up 30 feet from the hole rather than 10 - but still both are only a two-putt away.

GuyClinch
11-05-2009, 05:05 PM
Chuck Kriese Power Tennis on youtube has some tips that might be applicable..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFKfERXZyGU

He has some medicine ball exercises too in other videos. It is sales pitch for a device but he does give some nice tips in there if you sit through it, IMHO.

Also a guy called Coach Kryll

http://www.youtube.com/user/CoachKyril#p/a/u/1/6TrKHZzetpc

Not surprisingly they are at the core similiar ideas - trying to teach you how to tap into rotational power to get more pop on your forehands.. Coach Kryll little drill with the ball under the armpit basically mimics the strap thing that Chuck Kriese is explaining.

Cody
11-05-2009, 05:08 PM
He might hate me for saying so, but look into BungalowBill's take on the modern openstanced freeswinging forehands. And he's got vids too.

Can anyone point out these vids.

Thanks,

Kenny022593
11-05-2009, 05:13 PM
Can anyone point out these vids.

Thanks,

How is your playing going cody? Still having fun improving? :)

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Currently it's a very capable shot, even above average in terms of spin and pace. But in today's advanced game, you can't be a dominant player without a dominant forehand IMO.

I'd like to start playing and improving again, currently I'm not loading it like I should for the modern game. I need it to be a real weapon. Right now I'm looking into properly loading it and getting massive amounts of racket head, power and spin, I can always find consistency latter with practice.


If you can point me to any articles, tips or slow mo frame by frame video.

Thanks

Safin and Nalbandian did pretty well and had more of a dominant backhand than a dominant forehand. While Safin did have a pretty big forehand, Nalbandian's was a clear liability. Granted he can still produce winners and play solid points with it, but it wasn't nearly as solid as the backhand and definitely was not a strength.

Also, Hewitt was number one for over a year I believe without giving up his ranking (one of only 5 or 6 people in ATP Open Era history). He definitely doesn't have a dominant forehand or a dominant backhand. But he's VERY consistent and can get a lot of balls back.

There are many counterexamples to your idea of needing a "dominant forehand" to be "dominant". I mean, are we talking Federer and Nadal dominant? They're there for more than just their forehands. Very few people can move as well as they do and play the big points as well as they do (or in Federer's case - DID). You need speed, a few weapons, and a thirst to win at all (legal) costs. If you're in pain, you'll play through it (like Sampras constantly did). If you're tired, you'll ignore it and fight on. If you're cramping, you'll get the medical trainer, then forge on as best as you can. Though, to be the best, you must be fit and would not cramp anyways. :)

there is a reason why the best coaches in all sports teach young kids to swing all out and then the control wiill come later. You develop a "live" arm, the youger the better. I've seen tennis players, golfers, batters, pitchers who have had major weapons learn to control it, I've never seen it vice versa ( a control player developing a powerful weapon).

I'm willing to take 2 steps backwards if it means the potential upside on my game is increased. I can not feel the torque and loading the back foot doesn't seem to create a lot more power.

Well... Young kids can't hit that far anyways... And depth is important. Directional control will eventually come later, but depth is more important starting out. Now for big, strong adults, this might not be the way to go. If they go all out, they'll hit well long. Little kids, they can hit all out and might just reach the service line. Or they can get it close to the baseline, but they won't hit too many long.

Cody
11-05-2009, 05:42 PM
How is your playing going cody? Still having fun improving? :)

I'm going great, thanks for asking:)

I'm playing a match today, maybe i'll film it and get some match play analysis which is when all your flaws come out.

Right now i'm trying to stick my camara to my bag so i can film from up high on the back fence.

Cody ,

nfor304
11-05-2009, 05:43 PM
Hewitt's backhand is definitely better than his forehand and he was number 1 for 80 straight weeks.

Kafelnikov and Gustavo Kuerten also were number 1's with better backhands than forehands.

2ndServe
11-05-2009, 08:20 PM
well I youtubed the slo mo fed forehands and went out and hit it all wristy with a closed face just whipping it through. Getting a lot more pop and adjusted pretty fast to it.

I've seen these guys hit in real life safin, kafelnikov, Kuerten their backhands were magnificent but on every big point, when they got a look at a 2nd serve, when a short ball came they always tried to run around it and hit a forehand.

Even today guys like Wawrinka and Rochus with great backhands, when the opportunity comes they don't run around the forehand and hit a backhand.

It's the easier movement to, the larger strike zone, the easier last second adjustments and the recovery when hitting a forehand that makes it the 2nd most important shot in tennis.

CHOcobo
11-05-2009, 08:41 PM
He might hate me for saying so, but look into BungalowBill's take on the modern openstanced freeswinging forehands. And he's got vids too.

i searched that name, nothing came up.

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-05-2009, 09:33 PM
well I youtubed the slo mo fed forehands and went out and hit it all wristy with a closed face just whipping it through. Getting a lot more pop and adjusted pretty fast to it.

I've seen these guys hit in real life safin, kafelnikov, Kuerten their backhands were magnificent but on every big point, when they got a look at a 2nd serve, when a short ball came they always tried to run around it and hit a forehand.

Even today guys like Wawrinka and Rochus with great backhands, when the opportunity comes they don't run around the forehand and hit a backhand.

It's the easier movement to, the larger strike zone, the easier last second adjustments and the recovery when hitting a forehand that makes it the 2nd most important shot in tennis.

People don't run around forehands to hit backhands because it's more difficult than doing so for a forehand. And people naturally think hitting the forehand will allow them to pound a shot better, even though they know that their backhand is way better (or maybe they don't know).

When you run around a shot to hit a forehand, you send a message that you're going to hurt them. This is something you want to consistently do. Even if someone's backhand hurts you more than your forehand, you're more scared of seeing the opponent run around the backhand to hit the forehand than you are when you see them step in and line up the backhand. It's all mental.

If they wanted to win points, they'd just kill everyone with backhands. Smart servers like Federer will serve to their forehands on big points, especially someone like Nalbandian who's forehand can be quite unreliable at times. The simple reason is that he doesn't fear the idea of dealing with the forehand, because he knows it's the weaker wing, so he'll either get a free point or an easy look at finishing the point.

And you don't want to be practicing excessively wristy forehands... They are more likely to break down during match pressure either from you getting tight, or from you losing confidence after sending a few long.

Djokovicfan4life
11-06-2009, 01:36 AM
i searched that name, nothing came up.

It's just "Bungalo Bill" now, no W in there.

Ken Honecker
11-06-2009, 02:57 AM
It's certainly true in golf. Now they first teach you to hit it long (particularly, off the tee) and then they teach you to get it tighter onto the fairway. However, in golf part of the problem is that as the equipment is getting better (drivers hit longer, balls carry longer) the only way they defend the courses is by making them longer, and to play long courses properly you need to hit a long ball - so it all becomes self-fulfilling. There's another way to defend the course - by making it tighter, or with doglegs, so you have to take irons rather than woods off the tee. But that makes it too punitive - and slow and boring (like, looking for balls in the trees) - for the average Joe Public, who only wants to blast the ball, find it, and blast it again!

At least, in tennis, you have lines that provide a boundary to sheer power. You can hit it as hard as you like, but the ball still has to bounce in. And yes, improved equipment and strings help you keep it in, but to get the best of the rackets and strings you still have to develop good technique. If you push it hard but your tennis game is slightly off, you can end up putting lots of balls out. In golf, if you push just as hard when your game is slightly off, you're on the left or right of the fairway but still in play, or you end up 30 feet from the hole rather than 10 - but still both are only a two-putt away.

All I can say is you haven't golfed with me and my crew. I have absolutely no problem finding the pretty little trees but what are these fairways you speak of?

KenC
11-06-2009, 03:17 AM
well I youtubed the slo mo fed forehands and went out and hit it all wristy with a closed face just whipping it through. Getting a lot more pop and adjusted pretty fast to it.


I've been studying Federer's FH since it is more like mine, except way better. He obviously comes from the old school like me (Eastern grip, arm more extended) and then adapted it to a more modern open stance swing that has a weight transfer from the back foot to the front foot combined with hip and shoulder rotation. I think he generates a lot of power because of a weight transfer and body rotation combined with both the arm accelerating and the important fact that his wrist goes from a 60 degree angle to straight and blocked right before he hits the ball. This causes the racquet head to really whip the ball at contact. Then, he also makes contact with the ball at the same moment that the arm starts to naturally pronate (the check the watch movement) and finishes with a sort or windshield wiper swing. This allows him to put a great deal of topspin on the ball and all totaled delivers a very powerful and effective FH.

I have been hitting this way with an extreme Eastern grip for the last few months. I used to hit with the wrist always blocked and straight and now that I let it whip I get much more power. The downside is a flexible wrist has to straighten out and block just before contact or the ball will not go where I want. True talent is to be able to hit like this with the surgical precision that Federer has.

I am trying to adapt this to my 1HBH using the extreme Eastern grip, but the BH is not as amenable to an open stance and a lot of hip and shoulder rotation, and the arm naturally wants to pronate rather than supinate. But, using a weight transfer plus getting some rotation out of the hips and shoulders plus hitting at the moment the arm starts to naturally pronate is making my BH more powerful.

Anyway, my point above is that having a great forehand just means that our opponents will naturally just hit everything to our backhands. I think our backhands have to be just as brutal as our forehands in today's game.

LeeD
11-06-2009, 10:50 AM
Post #13 by BungalowBill on the thread started by ShangriLa about loading the right or back leg.

naylor
11-06-2009, 12:16 PM
... I have absolutely no problem finding the pretty little trees but what are these fairways you speak of?

They're the grass tennis courts laid end-to-end in between the dense forests of pretty little - and not-so-little - trees either side ... Just have to be positive, if you just dropped a tennis ball and hit a good forehand, how many courts away would you hit the ball and still be in (i.e., not out wide)? - now, put golf ball on tee, grab driver and repeat!!!

tricky
11-06-2009, 01:13 PM
Right now I'm looking into properly loading it and getting massive amounts of racket head, power and spin,

Pretty much starts with footwork. The loading of the leg itself is not meaningful without weight transfer. If you have a "swivel swing", you don't have weight transfer. Rather, your leg is just bending to support the extra "winding" up that you're doing around the swivel.

Anyway, to test whether you have a swivel swing. Execute a normal stroke and observe where your contact point is. Now, do the same with almost no takeback and observe where that contact point is. They should be almost identical. If not, you have a "swivel swing."

IF you have that, then you may need to rebuild your groundstroke if you want to progress much further. The most important thing is the step-out. Work on stepping out with the foot closest to the ball and using that to initiate the unit turn. You'll find that your unit turn and the "feel" of your groundstroke is very, very different than before when you incorporate the step-out pattern. (that is because now you're experiencing true weight transfer, facilitated by true hip rotation.) Then you want to evaluate whether you want to do the work of rebuilding the FH, or continue on with a "swivel swing."

Kinda wish footwork was emphasized from the start. Just so much easier when you have that foundation.

paulfreda
11-13-2009, 04:55 AM
Pretty much starts with footwork.
Anyway, to test whether you have a swivel swing. Execute a normal stroke and observe where your contact point is. Now, do the same with almost no takeback and observe where that contact point is. They should be almost identical. If not, you have a "swivel swing."
.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm ...
Don't you mean that if the contact points are identical,
you DO have a swivel swing ???

That is, if you have leg thrust, the contact point will be more forward and thus you are NOT just swivelling.

Power Player
11-13-2009, 05:46 AM
I have always been told I have a big forehand. There are a few keys to it.

Prep. Bring the racquet back so the head is facing up to the sky when you release your left hand. This aids in the low to high swing needed and also gets your shoulders turned. Track the ball with your left hand.

Definitley load up the back foot. The way to transfer power is to step in to the shot at contact.

The other thing is you HAVE to make contact out in front. That is a must.

When you are not getting power and pace..for me at least it is because I am not getting a full shoulder turn and not loading up on my back foot.

fruitytennis1
11-13-2009, 06:08 AM
Go big or go home.

Our previous #1 singles favorite saying. Then he usually ended up with a second serve ace.

mental midget
11-13-2009, 06:35 AM
when i feel my strokes have fallen out of rhythm, i work on timing. i've found trying to hit the ball as hard as possible, with the slowest possible stroke, at the contact point i prefer, is a good way of 'feeling your way' back into your shots, of getting your body weight and momentum transferring into the ball.

You can take the hugest, fastest hack at the ball, if you're not transferring your mass into the shot, you're only realizing a fraction of the power you can potentially generate.