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JISTUINS
11-06-2009, 05:46 PM
Hi, I'm new here and I searched for this topic but I couldn't find anything on the subject. I am coaching high school tennis. Two girls who are pretty good players wanted to work on the slice (mostly for defense purposes as they are pretty steady baseline rallyers). They have a two-handed backhand, and I have a one-handed backhand myself, so I could use some advice on the subject.

Basically, I tossed the ball from the ad side alley so that they could slice the ball crosscourt. I focused on stepping in, hitting from the outside of the ball, and extending the arm forward to hit through on the follow through.

As is often the case, they sliced from the inside of the ball, plus the two-handed backhand means that it is harder for them to extend the arm forward on the follow through. So, even though they were hitting crosscourt, their balls sliced back into the center of the court.

Here's a video to better illustrate what I am describing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9PtgPprR_Y

Any advice would be much appreciated.

actionflies
11-06-2009, 08:45 PM
That's a pretty good looking 2 handed slice. I think you need to feed them a higher ball for them to slice because it's harder to hit a 2 handed backhand when the ball is bouncing high outside of your hit zone.

Blake0
11-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Well, i'm not too sure about this, but try feeding them from the other side of the court, and let them use it while practicing and see how it goes. if it works out well, i'd say stick with it.

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-07-2009, 12:22 AM
You expect them to hit THOSE slices on defense?! If I had the option of hitting THAT on defense, I'd just hit the high looper! What are you people thinking?!

If you could get to the ball THAT quickly, you wouldn't be on defense! You'd be in a neutral position!

For one, they should be hitting defensive slices with ONE HAND! This gives added reach, which a two handed backhand robs from a player.

And for them to be taking THAT MANY adjustment steps on a defensive shot is totally unrealistic! On a defensive shot you're taking full strides and might even be lunging for the ball! That's an offensive situation! If I had balls like that, I'd be crushing them. 1-3 adjustment steps means slow-paced neutral. 0 adjustment steps without using full strides means fast-paced neutral. 3+ adjustment steps means you should be hurting your opponent with this shot! Look at how close they are to their final position before they move! It's like 3 feet!

Okay, for you TO DO THIS RIGHT, follow these guidelines:
-Force them to hit with one hand. If they aren't, then they aren't really on defense (or at least not to the degree they will need a slice; basically they should be hitting a lob or a final attempt at a winner since the point is over either way in the latter situation).
-Change the drill. This is TERRIBLE! Have them start from the center of the court (maybe a few feet behind the baseline), and from the center of the service line, feed them balls to the corners. Whether it goes outside the lines or not, make them hit the ball anyways. In this scenario, you're probably looking at a passing shot, so they should focus on either hitting a passing shot setup, or a passing shot winner (depending on whether they think they can make it to try another second passing attempt or not).
-A second drill to do is to have them start on one side of the court, and from the baseline feed a ball into the corner of the other side. Do this for forehands and backhands. Here they have quite a few options. They can hit the high deep crosscourt moonball to give themselves time to regain their balance, the defensive slice crosscourt, the or the defense to offense running forehand/backhand down the line or wide crosscourt. You should probably tell them which one you want them to hit before the ball bounces.

They should be on the full run when hitting a defensive shot, without any time to take any adjustment steps.

And finally, the amount of sidespin they put on the ball doesn't even matter. They hardly put any on it. Now if they floated it, then it would go into the center, but that barely goes a foot to the side! And if you want them to get it to curve the other way, the ball has to be higher.

thejoe
11-07-2009, 05:19 AM
Why on Earth would you teach this hideous shot? Half the balls that went over the net weren't even slices!

volusiano
11-07-2009, 06:14 AM
I agree that you should train them to use 1hbh slice for defense. Usually the slice as a defense shot is used when there's not enough time to get to the ball fast enough and by the time you get there, you may even have to reach out to the ball and therefore become fully extended, perhaps even with your back facing the net. So a 2hbh slice is not going to work in that case. That's why you see most players who are 2hbh still use only 1hbh for their slices. It's just not natural or effective to force a 2hbh slice in my opinion.

JISTUINS
11-07-2009, 06:40 AM
Thank you for some good advice. Perhaps to keep this thread on topic, I should further clarify some things. First, I myself agree that the 1hb slice is better, but there are certain reasons why this shot has become necessary at the moment, and to be honest, this shot (as well as the 2hb volley) is not so taboo at the girl's high school level here in Japan. However, I hope this thread does not turn into a 1hb slice vs 2hb slice as that was not my intention. And so, second is that if there are any people who have experience with this shot, I would love to hear your productive comments regarding the mechanics and instruction of this shot.

You expect them to hit THOSE slices on defense?! If I had the option of hitting THAT on defense, I'd just hit the high looper!...If you could get to the ball THAT quickly, you wouldn't be on defense!...And for them to be taking THAT MANY adjustment steps on a defensive shot is totally unrealistic!

I agree, but I also don't think "defense" has to mean slice lob on the dead run. Also, I thought starting them out from ball toss --> racquet feeds --> live drills would be a more efficient and natural learning progression in terms of getting the feel for stroke mechanics before incorporating that sort of tough balance, lunging footwork. I do agree that by the time this stroke becomes usable in match play, those two drills you mentioned should have been already practiced repeatedly.

And finally, the amount of sidespin they put on the ball doesn't even matter.

Actually, I thought a common mistake of most novice slices (besides the more common chopping straight down) was that it ends up sidespinning as novices have a tendency to contact from the inside of the ball (so curves away from hitter). And so, one technique was to have the students imagine slicing from outside of the ball (and which would also be useful for retrieving balls on the dead run otherwise they might end up floating down-the-line curving out into the alley)

Half the balls that went over the net weren't even slices!

Exactly. Any productive advice from people who have experience and success with this shot would be much appreciated.

sheets
11-07-2009, 07:00 AM
Are two hands really so bad? Look at Santoro. Its of the forehand side, but it's still kinda the smae things. I also jave an aunt who hits a two handed backhand slice as her go to shot (she plays 4.0's) thats wicked. Why not tweak the slice they have? The essentials are there (high to low) and they hit it solid. Just practice. But thats just my opinion.

LeeD
11-07-2009, 08:09 AM
Good players....
I think the two handed slice is an excellent idea, giving VARIETY to normally looping topspin backhands. Can be used for passing shots, when hit that low, and can be used when tentative.
But they both need also a ONE HANDED defensive slice, where they can't set their feet, or turn sideways for the ball. That's used when you're run around by the opponent, need to save some energy, and just get an off speed, off spin ball back to prolong the point.
As a former high level B player, one thing that made most my higher level opponents comment on was the unpredictibility of my 2HBH's. I could top, slice, or sidespin at will, and often hit a low trajectory topspin lob during a rally.

fuzz nation
11-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Santoro's two-handed forehand is interesting in that he takes his bottom hand off the grip on his follow-through, maybe for a more fluid stroke. Tennis magazine (or someone) did a frame by frame analysis of that specific stroke and it was very cool to gain some understanding of such a unique (and in my opinion, quite effective) shot. Having seen him up close on a few occasions, he can slice or pound the ball on that wing with both great accuracy as well as exceptional disguise.

OP, sorry for the heavy criticism from some of our fellow posters here.

I tend to avoid the idea of hitting a 2hbh with slice, but your video has given me a couple of things to chew on. I grew up playing on grass courts and learned a slice backhand before anything else, so I hold some appreciation for that shot. Some of the strokes in that video look rather good, but it's also easy to see how two hands on the racquet can work somewhat in opposition when trying to slice a backhand. The racquet has to travel more through an arc around the hitter's rotational axis when using two hands. That can be stable, but it can also limit the way the racquet moves to the ball.

With a one-handed slice, the arm rather leads the racquet through the ball to a broad finish without a release of the racquet. By release, I mean a breaking of the wrist so that the racquet passes ahead of the arm through contact, which it commonly the case with a topspin 1hbh. Ideally, the "L" formed between the racquet and the hitter's forearm doesn't break down and at the finish of the stroke, the tip of the racquet ought to point in the general direction of the intended target. I think of this as rather essential geometry for a decent slice backhand. One thing it allows for is a more linear high-to-low swing through the ball where you don't see so much curving back toward the center with a crosscourt hit.

Looking at your video clip, lots of those strokes finish with the hitter's racquet tip pointed up to the sky or off to the right. The racquet seems as though it has to release through contact for any sort of shot to happen. Although they may be using a generally high-to-low path through the ball in this drill than for topspin strokes, that trailing arm on the racquet forces more of a motion across the ball than straight through it. That means that most of those two-handed slices will probably curve back toward the left unless maybe your hitters can manage to make contact farther back beside them. That's more in the neighborhood where contact for a one-handed slice usually happens. It may help the line that the ball travels through, but it might also break down the leverage in the two-hander when trying to catch the ball farther back.

ubermeyer
11-07-2009, 01:05 PM
Are you sure they should hit a 2h slice? One of the girls has a high follow through despite hitting a slice, which I find strange.

Ripper014
11-07-2009, 01:16 PM
The reason the ball is moving to the middle of the court is that they are hitting a sidespin backhand. Something I like to hit when approaching the net... I like to hit it with sidespin down the line so it moves away from my opponent.

I you want them to hit a chip or slice... have them hit behind the ball and through it to the target. A chip... change of pace slower shot with a more high to low motion... and a slice you hit much more through the ball.

If you can get some video on Connors... he was one of the few I would see using it quite a bit with 2-hands... I have always used a 1-handed backhand and found hitting anything other than a flat or topspin 2-handed backhand rather ackward. I think that is because my lead arm felt like it had to breakdown.

And I agree thats not a bad backhand that your kids are hitting.

moroni
11-07-2009, 02:41 PM
okay i hate 2 handed backhand ..... but i respect a well done two hander.... but using it for slice is just stupid.... 1 handed slice gives more reac which is what you need for a defensive slice

Nellie
11-07-2009, 02:45 PM
When I have seen two-handed backhand slices, I see the backhand-side hand release to allow the racquet to continue down below the ball, after contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP_Hylsddd4

Both the girls follow over the shoulder, which means they will tend to hit across the ball with sidespin if the time is off at all.

Also, I would open the racquet face perhaps with a continental grip on the dominant hand, to get the ball over the net and since, on defensive shots, the contact point will be further back.

julian
11-07-2009, 02:50 PM
Did you feed such a low boucing balls by design?
BTW: a coach a high school team in States-see my signature

JISTUINS
11-09-2009, 12:15 AM
Thank you for some Santoro and Connors references. I looked them up on youtube as well to see if I could get some good footage. There was a good one on Santoro (thanks Nellie).

To sum up, if I understand everyone correctly, looks like trying to figure a way to hit through longer may be key. And so, not hitting out in front so much is one suggestion, also letting go of the trailing arm on the follow through. I will try these out as well with the girls. I have a feeling that releasing on follow through might work better with the girl in black since her right arm dominates her 2hbh motion and might have more touch, while the girl in pink uses more of her left arm in her 2hbh motion.

I was also looking Connors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFvYMpuJLI and though I have not seen this kind of stroke hit recently, and granted it is probably more flat-slice than a real slice, I did notice that his racquet head does not end at the opposite side of his body. Rather, he finishes the racquet head high after hitting through the ball. So that seems like another interesting technique to counter what we've been talking about.

Here's another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9axeuv_7aw that emphasizes compact backswing and compact follow through. I figure the backswing should look like the normal 2hbh swing as much as possible until the last minute, but the short follow through may be to avoid pulling across the body because of the two hands, but that might trade off on control as compared to the Santoro and Connors follow throughs.

Did you feed such a low boucing balls by design?

They hit topspin about 99.9% of the time, and so I thought they could use their normal strokes most of the time except when the ball drops below their normal contact point. Several posts have suggested to try a higher contact point. What do you think?

Bud
11-09-2009, 12:40 AM
Hi, I'm new here and I searched for this topic but I couldn't find anything on the subject. I am coaching high school tennis. Two girls who are pretty good players wanted to work on the slice (mostly for defense purposes as they are pretty steady baseline rallyers). They have a two-handed backhand, and I have a one-handed backhand myself, so I could use some advice on the subject.

Basically, I tossed the ball from the ad side alley so that they could slice the ball crosscourt. I focused on stepping in, hitting from the outside of the ball, and extending the arm forward to hit through on the follow through.

As is often the case, they sliced from the inside of the ball, plus the two-handed backhand means that it is harder for them to extend the arm forward on the follow through. So, even though they were hitting crosscourt, their balls sliced back into the center of the court.

Here's a video to better illustrate what I am describing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9PtgPprR_Y

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Teach them to hit the BH slice using 1 hand. It's too difficult to dig out low balls with a 2HBH slice and then maintain control on the ball.

Are their 2HBH grips conducive to a fairly easy 1HBH slice? In other words, is their dominant hand using the continental grip? If so, it's an easy transition.

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-09-2009, 12:43 AM
I agree, but I also don't think "defense" has to mean slice lob on the dead run. Also, I thought starting them out from ball toss --> racquet feeds --> live drills would be a more efficient and natural learning progression in terms of getting the feel for stroke mechanics before incorporating that sort of tough balance, lunging footwork. I do agree that by the time this stroke becomes usable in match play, those two drills you mentioned should have been already practiced repeatedly.



Actually, I thought a common mistake of most novice slices (besides the more common chopping straight down) was that it ends up sidespinning as novices have a tendency to contact from the inside of the ball (so curves away from hitter). And so, one technique was to have the students imagine slicing from outside of the ball (and which would also be useful for retrieving balls on the dead run otherwise they might end up floating down-the-line curving out into the alley)

Defense doesn't mean slice lob on the run. It means put the shot back into the court because you're on the full run! Smart defense means select a shot, and hit it where you want on the court WHILE you're on the full run. You need to work on their athletic ability to get to the ball, which is TEN TIMES more important than the shot itself. If they could get to the ball THAT well, there is no way they should even bother hitting a slice, they should be hitting a hard ball. They aren't even slicing all of them. Some are hit with a little bit of topspin! You're wasting everyone's time with that drill... Really. Unless you want them to work on pounding low balls and using a lot of adjustment steps to get into the perfect position, that drill isn't what you're looking for.

Screw learning the shot, it's far more important to be able to get to the ball. If they can achieve that to high levels of proficiency, they don't even have to deal with a backhand slice most of the time, they can hit running backhands. If you want them to learn a shot, feed it to them constantly. If you want to learn a shot for a specific situation, have them learn both on the fly. They're going to have to make plenty of adjustments anyway once they start hitting it on the run, so just let them learn it on their own. Give them the general idea of knife through the ball with a slightly open racket face and aim for good placement. They'll learn it themselves. The biggest problem will be strengthening the wrist as well as developing the proper coordination. So don't expect too much until after maybe ball #1000.

And when the ball is that low, you must have a pretty small racket in addition to some incredible racket handling abilities to make it spin the other way. A ball that low on the full run, you're pretty much looking at a flat lob or a slice down the line. To get it crosscourt and to spin it into the ally takes serious talent.

Now, when the ball is a bit higher, like chest height or above, you can easily put that kind of spin on it. Otherwise, focus on getting the spin as straight as possible in the situation you're focusing on. Even on the full run, I can't put that kind of sidespin on it unless I catch it at chest height or above (which isn't too hard if you're a good athlete and on the full run dealing with a ball that would normally be around stomach height anyways), and a defensive slice is one of my specialty shots.

Athleticism and movement are more important than the strokes themselves. You can get away with a lot using purely that as opposed to great strokes. However, people who have developed both (Murray, Federer, Nadal, Sampras) end up playing tennis at levels far above their peers. On the run, you need to be able to separately control the movements of your upper and lower body, and have a strong core to support that. The lower body gets you to where you need to be at full speed, the core keeps you balanced, and the upper body does the stroke. Athletes can naturally do this very well, which is why the best athletes tend to dominate their sports.

julian
11-09-2009, 10:35 AM
Thank you for some Santoro and Connors references. I looked them up on youtube as well to see if I could get some good footage. There was a good one on Santoro (thanks Nellie).

To sum up, if I understand everyone correctly, looks like trying to figure a way to hit through longer may be key. And so, not hitting out in front so much is one suggestion, also letting go of the trailing arm on the follow through. I will try these out as well with the girls. I have a feeling that releasing on follow through might work better with the girl in black since her right arm dominates her 2hbh motion and might have more touch, while the girl in pink uses more of her left arm in her 2hbh motion.

I was also looking Connors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFvYMpuJLI and though I have not seen this kind of stroke hit recently, and granted it is probably more flat-slice than a real slice, I did notice that his racquet head does not end at the opposite side of his body. Rather, he finishes the racquet head high after hitting through the ball. So that seems like another interesting technique to counter what we've been talking about.

Here's another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9axeuv_7aw that emphasizes compact backswing and compact follow through. I figure the backswing should look like the normal 2hbh swing as much as possible until the last minute, but the short follow through may be to avoid pulling across the body because of the two hands, but that might trade off on control as compared to the Santoro and Connors follow throughs.



They hit topspin about 99.9% of the time, and so I thought they could use their normal strokes most of the time except when the ball drops below their normal contact point. Several posts have suggested to try a higher contact point. What do you think?

A classic/unorthodox approach when to hit slice is that one hits slice on balls
which do have a higher bounce than yours.
There are two kind of slice:
1.high to low mechanics
2.a slice drive a la Australians - a shallow U shape

Feeding acrross a net would be a bit better to keep a time scale a bit more realistic.If you prefer E-mail my E-mail address is juliantennis@comcast.net

LeeD
11-09-2009, 10:40 AM
Two handed slices with some side component are most effective for shoulder and HIGHER incoming balls.
On shin height balls, much more energy saving and efficient to go one handed.
And high balls sliced with two handers DTL tend to drift towards the alley, making the opponent run an extra step without you needing to hit that extra step closer to the sidelines. Same as DTL sidespin forehands.
Learn all the weapons, choose to employ them at your will.

papa
11-10-2009, 05:07 PM
Interesting shot but keep in mind the bounce provided is very low - little bit like a moving golf shot. I actually like it, if not used all the time and based on what you say, its not - why not it keeps the ball low, cc and has some pace. If you hit that same shot one handed, your going to pop the ball up more than not.

LeeD
11-11-2009, 09:48 AM
My only concern with that shot is that modern younger players tend to hit the ball with lots of TOPSPIN, bouncing it high to our backhands, and we seldom get those low bouncing skidders or flats. I'd like to see those players hitting head high shots directed to their backhands also.
If given a low shot like that, a one handed slice CC goes low right back to your opponent, giving them the equal puzzle. A very easy shot to do.

papa
11-11-2009, 12:13 PM
A very easy shot to do.


Really, go out and try it - not as easy as it looks.

EP1998
11-11-2009, 12:25 PM
Thank you for some good advice. Perhaps to keep this thread on topic, I should further clarify some things. First, I myself agree that the 1hb slice is better, but there are certain reasons why this shot has become necessary at the moment,.

What situations? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious.

LeeD
11-11-2009, 01:10 PM
er....
Being a S/V'er from the late '70's, with excellent volleys and so so groundies, I've found a sliced approach deep off a low skidder a really easy shot to hit. That's all I faced for 4 years of tennis, everyone hitting low shots at me hoping I'd pop one up.
Closed stance, set feet at impact, stroke thru the ball with eyes on it. You know the height of the net, it never changed. Clear it with some pace, the ball goes deep into the corner.

EP1998
11-11-2009, 02:39 PM
er....
Being a S/V'er from the late '70's, with excellent volleys and so so groundies, I've found a sliced approach deep off a low skidder a really easy shot to hit. That's all I faced for 4 years of tennis, everyone hitting low shots at me hoping I'd pop one up.
Closed stance, set feet at impact, stroke thru the ball with eyes on it. You know the height of the net, it never changed. Clear it with some pace, the ball goes deep into the corner.

You hit this with one hand though, right?

LeeD
11-11-2009, 04:14 PM
From '76 thru '79, two handed DTL's with sidespin.
Now that I'm slow and can't move, one handed conti grip with slight twist towards EForehand side.

JISTUINS
11-12-2009, 12:46 AM
2.a slice drive a la Australians - a shallow U shape

I'm curious about this. Please elaborate (and I'll email just to be safe).


From '76 thru '79, two handed DTL's with sidespin.

Interested to hear more about this shot. I would love to hear about how you did it.


What situations? I'm not trying to be mean, just curious.

I will explain, though I am not sure if revealing a lot of info about myself will make the situation better. Basically, I am new here but not a newbie to tennis having played for nearly 30 years. (When I was younger I had national rankings but in a small Asian country, and now that I am older I can still manage a top 20 ranking in this prefecture, or state, in Japan). And so, I was hired at this school, which happens to be a powerhouse of the prefecture with almost 30 years tradition of state championship, placing well in regionals and qualifying for nationals (Interhigh and Senbatsu) for girls team, and 10 years for boys team. (And high school sports is akin to college NCAA in the US since high school is when Japan is intensely serious about sports, and so we train everyday including weekends and holidays, of which I do not twiddle my thumbs thinking about the 2hbh slice all day... we do, as xFullCourtTenniSx suggested, work on training everyday after practice, rotating different drills to work on different physical aspects) I was asked by the main coach, and the father of one these girls who happens to be the current 18 under champion in this prefecture, to look into it, and I have told the main coach about the 1hbh suggestion which I am more qualified to avice on (of which I do use the 2 drills xFullCourtTenniSx suggested and there's a slice study here which I also sifted through), but as an employee, I still have to look into it, and so I had hoped that this thread would help reveal the dynamics of the 2hbh slice, which I am pretty unfamiliar with. I know there are 1hbh vs 2hbh arguers (I prefer the 1hbh slice, too, you know...) but if you could, please refrain and let the people with 2hbh slice talk otherwise, no one will contribute because of automatic flame by 2hbh slice haters. That, like I said, can be a different thread. Of course, am doing my research elsewhere as well, since for me this is a job I am passionate about, and I do not know who everybody here is.

So in short, I was asked to look into it by the powers above me. So, God knows I see the advantages of the 1hbh slice over the 2hbh slice... but I need to know about the 2hbh slice as well, so if there are any experienced persons out there, or people who want to discuss its mechanics, I welcome the opportunity. I believe the point that 1hbh slice is more advantageous has been voiced.

LeeD
11-12-2009, 09:01 AM
2hb slice with side approach off a low ball is easy. You move over there, outside in swing across your body to control pace, the two hands actually encourages this swing, slightly open stance so you are ahead in court coverage recovery, and the ball goes towards the sideline on a DTL approach.
I could not hit pure underspin because I couldn't bend low enough to get fully under the ball. And on a slice, you can't hit inside out, so outside in is the only way it works..:shock::shock::shock:

Cindysphinx
11-12-2009, 09:11 AM
As a lay person, I'm totally confused.

The player starts off with the racket high, but then seems to scoop under the ball rather than having a more linear swing path. The trajectory of the ball, to my untrained eye, looks more like a topspin shot than a slice shot.

Am I way off base?

Just trying to learn something here . . .

Cindy -- who will not be adding this shot to her arsenal

LeeD
11-12-2009, 09:17 AM
High backswing and what seems like scooping under the ball MUST result in some backspin/underspin/slice. And when done as an approach shot off a low ball, the oft hand tends to force the swing across the body, giving it sidespin also. The followthru is high because both my arms are connected to my shoulders.
All DTL shots hit this way curve INTO the sidelines, away from the opposition.
JimmyConnors and KenRosewall regularly hit this way, forcing the opponent to run an extra step on every one of the DTL shots.

Cindysphinx
11-12-2009, 09:18 AM
High backswing and what seems like scooping under the ball MUST result in some backspin/underspin/slice. And when done as an approach shot off a low ball, the oft hand tends to force the swing across the body, giving it sidespin also. The followthru is high because both my arms are connected to my shoulders.
All DTL shots hit this way curve INTO the sidelines, away from the opposition.
JimmyConnors and KenRosewall regularly hit this way, forcing the opponent to run an extra step on every one of the DTL shots.

A. Radwanska hits this shot. I cringe whenever I see it.

LeeD
11-12-2009, 09:23 AM
I used to cringe when I watched JimmyConnors play tennis! How can anyone who runs like a crab two handed, hit sidespin all the time, serve at 105 max, yell and scream and generally play gamesmenship, wear that ridiculous looking Beatles haircut, have a straight takeback showing little athleticism, ......and he showed he can have some game! :):)

EP1998
11-12-2009, 09:30 AM
I'm curious about this. Please elaborate (and I'll email just to be safe).




Interested to hear more about this shot. I would love to hear about how you did it.




I will explain, though I am not sure if revealing a lot of info about myself will make the situation better. Basically, I am new here but not a newbie to tennis having played for nearly 30 years. (When I was younger I had national rankings but in a small Asian country, and now that I am older I can still manage a top 20 ranking in this prefecture, or state, in Japan). And so, I was hired at this school, which happens to be a powerhouse of the prefecture with almost 30 years tradition of state championship, placing well in regionals and qualifying for nationals (Interhigh and Senbatsu) for girls team, and 10 years for boys team. (And high school sports is akin to college NCAA in the US since high school is when Japan is intensely serious about sports, and so we train everyday including weekends and holidays, of which I do not twiddle my thumbs thinking about the 2hbh slice all day... we do, as xFullCourtTenniSx suggested, work on training everyday after practice, rotating different drills to work on different physical aspects) I was asked by the main coach, and the father of one these girls who happens to be the current 18 under champion in this prefecture, to look into it, and I have told the main coach about the 1hbh suggestion which I am more qualified to avice on (of which I do use the 2 drills xFullCourtTenniSx suggested and there's a slice study here which I also sifted through), but as an employee, I still have to look into it, and so I had hoped that this thread would help reveal the dynamics of the 2hbh slice, which I am pretty unfamiliar with. I know there are 1hbh vs 2hbh arguers (I prefer the 1hbh slice, too, you know...) but if you could, please refrain and let the people with 2hbh slice talk otherwise, no one will contribute because of automatic flame by 2hbh slice haters. That, like I said, can be a different thread. Of course, am doing my research elsewhere as well, since for me this is a job I am passionate about, and I do not know who everybody here is.

So in short, I was asked to look into it by the powers above me. So, God knows I see the advantages of the 1hbh slice over the 2hbh slice... but I need to know about the 2hbh slice as well, so if there are any experienced persons out there, or people who want to discuss its mechanics, I welcome the opportunity. I believe the point that 1hbh slice is more advantageous has been voiced.

I see, thank you for clarifying. I thought maybe it was court surface or something. I have never played tennis in Asia (have been to many countries there, very nice people). I hope you can find what you are looking for here and I think the way you have handled this thread keeping it on the topic you want is just awesome!

EP1998
11-12-2009, 09:32 AM
I used to cringe when I watched JimmyConnors play tennis! How can anyone who runs like a crab two handed, hit sidespin all the time, serve at 105 max, yell and scream and generally play gamesmenship, wear that ridiculous looking Beatles haircut, have a straight takeback showing little athleticism, ......and he showed he can have some game! :):)

That is a funny post!

Ripper014
11-12-2009, 09:42 AM
I used to cringe when I watched JimmyConnors play tennis! How can anyone who runs like a crab two handed, hit sidespin all the time, serve at 105 max, yell and scream and generally play gamesmenship, wear that ridiculous looking Beatles haircut, have a straight takeback showing little athleticism, ......and he showed he can have some game! :):)

Connors made the game as easy as you can... there is little to go wrong with his mechanics... and being as simple as it is makes it a lot easier to time. His mechanics are extremely compact compared to the players of today, and his swing path keeps his racket on plane with the tennis ball longer. All things that promote cleaner contact... what it does not do is provide the added safety of a lot of topspin.

Ripper014
11-12-2009, 09:51 AM
As a lay person, I'm totally confused.

The player starts off with the racket high, but then seems to scoop under the ball rather than having a more linear swing path. The trajectory of the ball, to my untrained eye, looks more like a topspin shot than a slice shot.

Am I way off base?

Just trying to learn something here . . .

Cindy -- who will not be adding this shot to her arsenal



I hate the term scoop under the ball... if you want to try and hit this shot... you are correct.. swing in a linear path from high to low... and make contact with a relatively square racket face. The sharper the angle (swing path) from high to low will generate more spin... a chip versus a slice... To hit a sidespin ball you are just going to hit the ball on the inside half, the spin will move the ball away from the side where you struck it. Basic physics.

Pay attention to your topspin forehand... where your swing path is from low to high... and I would hope when you make contact with the ball the racket is relatively square. Hitting a slice is just the opposite...

It was mentioned on one of the threads here by VGP... I believe it was Tildens book that made thing really clear to me how spin worked when I first started playing tennis. Strokes have changed, players have changed but the physics of how things work in the world are still the same, at least in this universe.

LeeD
11-12-2009, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I"ve always appreciated the spin and effect on the path of the ball.
DTL's, an outside in swing can end up well off the sidelines, but clear the net well inside the sidelines. Not good for passing shots, but great for approaches and making the guy run.
CC, topspin shots carry the ball away from the opponent, making him run farther than it's location over the net would have him believe. OK for passing shots, as you can extreme the top and shorten the ballpath, allowing you to hit more angle. And most people don't slice forehands for aggressive shots.
That's where the TWO HANDED strokes come into play. Those peeps need to run farther to get to the ball, but can make the opponent run far with safe curving shots!
Variety is the spice of tennis, so we should consider expanding our horizons.

Nellie
11-12-2009, 07:07 PM
I was looking at this video (long) and note that Chris Everett hits a nice two-handed slice at about 43-44 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfkm6dk1AMQ

I note that she hits high to low and stays low to finish. Admittedly, this is more of short, skidding slice than a defensive slice. You can compare with the shot before in which she starts lower and finishes high for a heavy topspin.

ttbrowne
11-12-2009, 07:16 PM
I used to cringe when I watched JimmyConnors play tennis! How can anyone who runs like a crab two handed, hit sidespin all the time, serve at 105 max, yell and scream and generally play gamesmenship, wear that ridiculous looking Beatles haircut, have a straight takeback showing little athleticism, ......and he showed he can have some game! :):)

Nah...he just showed you can intimidate the linespeople and the chair umpire. If there were a Spotshot replay back in those days, he wouldn't have won anything.

GinoGinelli
11-12-2009, 11:59 PM
I've used a 2 handed down the line chip slice with highish bouncing serves a few times in doubles, works a treat if the net player isn't expecting it!

papa
11-13-2009, 05:19 AM
I've used a 2 handed down the line chip slice with highish bouncing serves a few times in doubles, works a treat if the net player isn't expecting it!

Shot everyone should have - glad you use it. Key word here is "highish" - is that really a word? Got to be.

JISTUINS
11-15-2009, 02:38 PM
I see, thank you for clarifying. I thought maybe it was court surface or something.

I hadn't thought about it. Actually, in Japan, most courts are omni / synthetic grass courts since it is also used for soft tennis. I grew up on hard courts, so I don't really like this surface, but I think slice is more effective on this surface while topspin effect (especially on serve) is diminished.


I was looking at this video (long) and note that Chris Everett hits a nice two-handed slice at about 43-44 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfkm6dk1AMQ

I note that she hits high to low and stays low to finish.

Thanks for the video. This seems to be the example of short follow through. It looks like a high-to-low swing with a short follow through staying low for a short dropshot. It seems like a longer follow through is needed for deep balls. A short follow through for deep balls may easily end up as floaters.


I've used a 2 handed down the line chip slice with highish bouncing serves a few times in doubles, works a treat if the net player isn't expecting it!

Would it be correct to assume that the left-hand (if right-handed) does most of the work, breaking in the process, in bringing the ball down when you do this shot?

omigod
11-17-2009, 09:06 AM
Interesting shot but keep in mind the bounce provided is very low - little bit like a moving golf shot. I actually like it, if not used all the time and based on what you say, its not - why not it keeps the ball low, cc and has some pace. If you hit that same shot one handed, your going to pop the ball up more than not.

The court is an omni-court (basically carpet with sand). It does not bounce much. Slow like clay but no bounce at all. Besides, it looked like they were practicing low bouncing shots. Most double handed backhand ladies don't slice the waist high or high bouncing balls.

papa
11-17-2009, 12:05 PM
The court is an omni-court (basically carpet with sand). It does not bounce much. Slow like clay but no bounce at all. Besides, it looked like they were practicing low bouncing shots. Most double handed backhand ladies don't slice the waist high or high bouncing balls.

OK, thanks.

Interesting observation concerning the slice - could this be a upper body strength issue with the women. Something I'm going to be a little bit more observant about which might become more pronounced with age. I'm generally dealing with older players and body types, along with strength and age, become limiting factors.