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View Full Version : Pronation = fast twitch forearm muscle??


teppeiahn1
11-09-2009, 08:19 AM
How can you exactly improve on stronger pronation?

I remember hearing about practicing with ur 4 fingers touching thumb and making the wrinst go up and down as fast a you can. Im guessing that works out your fast twitch muscles in forearm?

I want a big serve! help.

LeeD
11-09-2009, 08:27 AM
NOT fast or slow twitch muscles!!
Pronation is the twisting of the hand to square the contact with the ball.
Racket is not held in line with the foream, so an inward twisting motion adds racket acceleration. And the twisting is NOT commanded by muscle, but rather by inertia from the initial backswing.
RELAX your wrist, elbow, and shoulders to get pronation. Start your swing with a conti type grip and allow the racketface to close (square up) just before it contacts the ball.

teppeiahn1
11-09-2009, 09:41 AM
NOT fast or slow twitch muscles!!
Pronation is the twisting of the hand to square the contact with the ball.
Racket is not held in line with the foream, so an inward twisting motion adds racket acceleration. And the twisting is NOT commanded by muscle, but rather by inertia from the initial backswing.
RELAX your wrist, elbow, and shoulders to get pronation. Start your swing with a conti type grip and allow the racketface to close (square up) just before it contacts the ball.

So only way on working the pronation is getting more raquet headspeed with loose wrist?

LeeD
11-09-2009, 09:46 AM
Loose wrist are expecially imporatant during the prep, backswing, and followthru, not necessarily the ball strike.
Loose elbows for the backswing and for reaching up to raise the strikezone.
Loose shoulders are the most important, as it allows everything to work together as well as incorporating the torso, thighs, knees, and ankles.
Some say, the only real muscles you PUSH with are the thighs and calfs, everything else is momentum based.

GuyClinch
11-09-2009, 09:50 AM
If pronation was only controlled by inertia of the backswing then why would pro tennis players have one forearm that's twice the size of their off hand?

I am not buying this whole you don't actively pronate stuff.

Pronation is not just controlled by the backswing. A good example is the Brad Gilbert drill where you spike the ball the ball in front of you with the serve..so that it bounce over the net (and hopefully over the back fence).

I totally think is the #1 myth perpertrated by tennis pros. What's going on is that once your good enough the time is incorprated into your swing such that you don't have to think about it..

While you can't change these "programs" on the fly - they are in there, IMHO. I don't think pro football quarterback worry about pronating either. But that's because its become so built into their throwing motion. When your teaching someone to throw a football you absolutely have to show then how to use the wrist and forearm.

As for pronation exercises - there are some but I have no idea if they actually translate to improving your tennis serve. I would do on court tennis drills like these - and the Brad Gilbert drill i mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUDzYl2IJg

Pete

LeeD
11-09-2009, 10:05 AM
BradGilbert had the slowest, weakest serve of any pro with his otherwise unworldly abilities. Don't take HIS course in fast serve speeds. His sister Dana could almost serve as fast, and often did just to keep the family name linked to male hormones. But she was a cutie.
Yes, you need SOME amount of muscle, like some amount of fitness, like some amount of ungodly eyesight, like some amount of athleticism. But not a lot of muscle. Those big rackearms are a result of YEARS and hundreds of thousand hours of hitting with that hand, not musclebuilding 4 months courses.
And maybe volleys, forehands, and backhands use and build some muscles, not just serves.
I'm 5'11" and maybe 135 lbs in my tennis days. Timed at over 125 repeatedly, and most top Open players respect my first serves to stand 5' behind the baseline when I go body hunting. I have no big left forearm (my right has always been stronger and bigger), but even today, at 60 years old, most of my peers choose to stand well behind the baseline to successfully return my first serves.
Don't take muscle, tennis takes fitness and replication.

Kevo
11-10-2009, 01:46 PM
The biggest serves I ever hit were after a day of fence mending pounding metal posts into the ground with a 4lb. sledge. After about 4 - 5 of those posts my forearm was pumped so big my skin hurt. It was ridiculous. I thought something was seriously wrong for a few minutes.

Anyway, the next day I was pounding down huge serves with less effort than I ever have before. It was great. So my advice is spend about 30min. a day pounding metal posts in the ground with a small sledge hammer. If I were playing in tournaments for ATP points I would seriously try this.

LeeD
11-10-2009, 01:56 PM
Kevo, and you'd still be the only one trying to build forearm muscles, the rest would work on their game..... everything including the serves, but there's so much to learn and serves are only about 1/4th of the equation.

paulfreda
11-10-2009, 04:40 PM
I do agree that doing barbell curls [for the way it strengthens your hands] and or using those grip squeeze exercisers will improve a serve.

But the best advice is what Roy Emerson told his students .....

"Loosey goosey"

LeeD
11-11-2009, 09:53 AM
Seems if somebody like Roy would recommend "looseygoosey", why would you want to lift weights and get bigger?
You're only going to have to move that weight around, change it directions, and as we all know, an object finally set in motion likes to STAY in motion the same direction and speed.
Isn't tennis all about changing directions and speed?

paulfreda
11-11-2009, 08:48 PM
No no no
You lift weights to get stronger, not bigger
That is for body builders.
There are tow extremes to lifting;
1/ heavier and heavier weight for low reps, repeated several times
2/ lighter weight done with many many reps

#2 is what a tennis player would do
#1 is what a body builder would do

And as you likley know, the LOW percentage shot is the
one that CHANGES the direction of the ball.

LeeD
11-12-2009, 09:09 AM
Now why would you automatically assume EVERY tennis player needs to become stronger? Plenty of strong people around.
Before I started tennis, I played 1 JV year in high school football and 2 varsity seasons. All 3 years on varsity basketball. I raced motorcycles on road tracks at Cotati, Vacaville, Riverside, Washogal, Willow, and a few others, mostly being about 110 lbs and pushstarting 250's that weighed right around 255, and 500's (BSA twin carb Daytona GP bikes) that weighed closer to 320 lbs. I never rode 125's even tho I was offered a ride on Honda's 3 cylinder bike.
And surfing from '65 thru '74 helped with body strength.
Skiing SquawValley with a 5 season passes helped leg strength and timing.
I didn't need to get stronger, I needed to get BETTER.

Slazenger07
11-12-2009, 10:08 AM
No no no
You lift weights to get stronger, not bigger
That is for body builders.
There are tow extremes to lifting;
1/ heavier and heavier weight for low reps, repeated several times
2/ lighter weight done with many many reps

#2 is what a tennis player would do
#1 is what a body builder would do

And as you likley know, the LOW percentage shot is the
one that CHANGES the direction of the ball.

Wrong.
Heavy weight for low reps 1-5 is best for strength.
Bodybuilders train in the 6-12 rep range as this is best for hypertrophy, but with it comes alot of strength as well so this is generally the best range to train in for strength and big muscles, the best of both worlds.
Light weight done for many reps (15+) is NOT what tennis players should focus on, this kind of training is basically cardio through weight lifting and will NOT make you stronger

Trust me, Ive got alot of experience weight training, been muscle building seriously for about three years.

Slazenger07
11-12-2009, 10:16 AM
Seems if somebody like Roy would recommend "looseygoosey", why would you want to lift weights and get bigger?
You're only going to have to move that weight around, change it directions, and as we all know, an object finally set in motion likes to STAY in motion the same direction and speed.
Isn't tennis all about changing directions and speed?

Bigger Leg muscles will without a doubt make you faster. You dont want to be huge as a tennis player, because obviously speed is extremely important in our sport. Too much mass will slow you down, so you need to shoot for having mass without being too big. Id say 140-180 lbs depending on your body fat levels would be ideal. Bottom line is Bigger(to an extent), Stronger, muscles will make you a better tennis player.

Kevo
11-12-2009, 10:22 AM
Kevo, and you'd still be the only one trying to build forearm muscles, the rest would work on their game..... everything including the serves, but there's so much to learn and serves are only about 1/4th of the equation.

Well, at the higher levels of tennis, every little advantage helps. If you can hold serve reliably and get one mini-break in a tiebreak you win. We all know what Pete's serve did for him at crucial times. Same for a lot of other top players.

I can tell you from personal experience that it does help. It certainly doesn't help as much as good technique, but when your technique is already good, a bit of extra strength would help.

LeeD
11-12-2009, 11:59 AM
But does the extra strength compromise your ability to move, recover, stop and start. Usually it does!
You don't get a free ride anywhere in life, and certainly not in tennis.
You might get stronger, move faster, but can't gracefully change direction. You might hurt your knees getting stronger, you might OVERHIT when you're stronger.
Can't say catagorically that "getting stronger" is good for everyone. You have to look at the individual cases, one by one.
And BruceLee, when alive, at his peak, was around the same size (5'9", 140 lbs.).

mike53
11-12-2009, 12:35 PM
How can you exactly improve on stronger pronation?

I remember hearing about practicing with ur 4 fingers touching thumb and making the wrinst go up and down as fast a you can. Im guessing that works out your fast twitch muscles in forearm?

I want a big serve! help.

Follow the link in the post from CoachDavidH in this thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=291389&highlight=wrist+strength

2ndServe
11-12-2009, 02:43 PM
hitting the serve the edge of the racket is about to slice the ball in half before contact, the only to square up the head is to pronate. Should happen naturally.

nabrug
11-12-2009, 03:00 PM
How can you exactly improve on stronger pronation?

I remember hearing about practicing with ur 4 fingers touching thumb and making the wrinst go up and down as fast a you can. Im guessing that works out your fast twitch muscles in forearm?

I want a big serve! help.

Technically speaking "pronation does not generate a great deal of racket head speed but occurs to modify the orientation of the racket-face to the ball at impact" (Bruce Elliott et al).
The biggest part of racket speed is caused by the internal rotation of the (whole) arm.

Kevo
11-13-2009, 11:12 AM
Technically speaking "pronation does not generate a great deal of racket head speed but occurs to modify the orientation of the racket-face to the ball at impact" (Bruce Elliott et al).
The biggest part of racket speed is caused by the internal rotation of the (whole) arm.

I guess this means that somehow you can "technically" separate pronation of the wrist versus whole arm? I never thought about it like that. I have always seen it as a whole arm movement as far as tennis goes. I'm probably wrong though. Immobilizing my elbow I can see there is quite a bit of movement in the wrist/forearm exclusive of the upper arm and shoulder. I also notice that it seems the wrist leads and the arm follows. This seems especially true if you try to load up by supinating early.

Kevo
11-13-2009, 11:19 AM
Can't say catagorically that "getting stronger" is good for everyone. You have to look at the individual cases, one by one.
And BruceLee, when alive, at his peak, was around the same size (5'9", 140 lbs.).

Are we still talking about forearm or something else. I can see your point if we're talking about squatting 1000lbs., but for the forearm, I can't see how anybody playing tennis at a competitive level has a forearm so massive it will slow them down.

Like everything else there is moderation. If we take the opposing view, we could say that tennis players should get weaker to increase speed. If that's not true, then it must mean that everyone is at the perfect strength level right now. Like anything else, it's a matter of balance. People will have to try things for themselves and make their own determination whether they need more strength or not. I would guess that 80%, if not more, of tennis players will benefit from some additional strength.

user92626
11-13-2009, 11:38 AM
All this pronation, forearm, wrist ect talks is very confusing. Would it be safe to say that you just have to understand the necessary swing path and just whip the racket along it as massively as possible.??

LeeD
11-13-2009, 11:59 AM
For some tennis players, tennis is NOT about fastest swing speeds, massive ball speeds, and running around the court like a bull in heat.
Some people play tennis as an art form, in which subtleties, change of spins, change of ballspeeds, heights, and locations is more fun than big banging.
As for forearms bigger "always" better. Popeye couldn't play tennis. The natural gain in muscle in the forearm is from hitting hundreds of thousand FOREHANDS, BACKHANDS, VOLLEYS, PICKING UP THE BALL, and of course, SERVES.
I'll bet most of you hit more forehands than serves in any week, month, or year. I hit more volleys than serves.

user92626
11-13-2009, 12:25 PM
leed,
are u referring to pushers?

LeeD
11-13-2009, 12:34 PM
Pushers? Nope, not at all.
Some players play tennis as art form, so choose all the varying strokes, toy with the opponent, and vary placement of the ball and speeds. They can be totally aggressive players, wanting to end the point within 3 hits, so they can't be called pushers.
And EVERY top player is a pusher at times. Like when they're returning serve! Lots of them choose to just get the ball back. That is pushing!
Not pushing is trying to WIN the point with placement, speed/spin, and forcing the point to end.

user92626
11-13-2009, 04:02 PM
pushers with junk balls and mis-hits?

that can also be turned into art as well.

LeeD
11-14-2009, 08:23 AM
Think for once in your life!
A PUSHER just hits the ball back repeatedly waiting for his opponent's mistake!
Doesn't matter if he hits hard with topspin or whatever spin, he's WAITING for the opponent's mistake. That is pushing.
A guy who creates openings and tries to end the ball within maybe 1-4 shots is NOT PUSHING. Winning the point is different than the opponent losing the point. Winning is caused by YOU! You hit the ball where the opponent doesn't want it, and follow it up with a chess game of moving the opponent until you create the opening.
Pushing in chess is the guy who doesn't think ahead, but instead only counters his opponent's move.
The opposite of a pusher is someone with pre strategy, implements it, thinks 4 shots ahead, and plays it where the cards fall.