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View Full Version : Year-end Ratings WILL BE HIGHER


10sguy
11-11-2009, 10:56 PM
A word to the wise; be very flexible in your team planning for 2010 because there is an expectation of an overall "bump up" of most player's NRTP's in an attempt to more closely match player ratings to NTRP descriptions. There, IMO, is a VERY POSITIVE EFFECT from this, that being we'll likely see many new faces enjoying the experience of postseason play (rather than so many of the same old faces). But this doesn't necessarily mean if you're a low to average 3.5, for example), you can expect to be a Y/E 4.0 - but you can almost be assured that players who are accustomed to appealing down most years and being relatively successful year in and year out will very likely find themselves at a new higher level (and ineligible to appeal). I, for one, think this is great!

amarone
11-12-2009, 03:33 AM
A word to the wise; be very flexible in your team planning for 2010 because there is an expectation of an overall "bump up" of most player's NRTP's in an attempt to more closely match player ratings to NTRP descriptions. There, IMO, is a VERY POSITIVE EFFECT from this, that being we'll likely see many new faces enjoying the experience of postseason play (rather than so many of the same old faces). But this doesn't necessarily mean if you're a low to average 3.5, for example), you can expect to be a Y/E 4.0 - but you can almost be assured that players who are accustomed to appealing down most years and being relatively successful year in and year out will very likely find themselves at a new higher level (and ineligible to appeal). I, for one, think this is great! Also, note that appeals will fail if a player played at least a certain number of matches. It has been reported as 5 on these boards, but I have heard that it is 6.

amarone
11-12-2009, 03:53 AM
A further thought - if there is a bump up it gives an advantage to those areas that have already started their 2010 season with a roster governed by early start ratings. Atlanta is starting its second 2010 season right now.

herrburgess
11-12-2009, 04:55 AM
Are they revamping the NTRP computer system in a way that will result in higher ratings. Will match results now be weighted differently somehow? I assume that this is the announcement that our league is planning to make at our local captains' meeting this Sunday. Did you already receive the news at your local captains' meeting? Would like to know if this is truly official.

raiden031
11-12-2009, 05:04 AM
Did USTA publish this information or is it just a rumor?

Cindysphinx
11-12-2009, 05:17 AM
Boy, I hope the rumor is true. This bunching of female players at 3.0 and 3.5 has got to stop.

sphinx780
11-12-2009, 05:36 AM
It be interesting to see if there is truth to this and how it will play out.

kylebarendrick
11-12-2009, 08:25 AM
I have good reason to believe that the OP knows what he is talking about.

vizsla
11-12-2009, 09:20 AM
The OP? who is that

raiden031
11-12-2009, 09:25 AM
I have good reason to believe that the OP knows what he is talking about.

And why should the rest of us also have good reason to believe that?

Douggo
11-12-2009, 09:28 AM
I have good reason to believe kylebarendrick is a maniac, and not to be trusted.





No, not really.

vizsla
11-12-2009, 09:37 AM
Who is OP?????

vizsla
11-12-2009, 09:37 AM
Original poster?

10sguy
11-12-2009, 09:52 AM
Original poster?

Hmmm, original (im)poster? (just kidding)

Seriously, what I posted is the general gist and effect of what is coming with this year's year-end ratings. Far be it for me to try to guess at how National will present this; I just put it out as a "heads up." And, no, it's not a rumor.

Wakenslam
11-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Yes, OP=Original Poster.

I wholeheartedly agree about bumping people up and not letting them appeal back down. Its gets really old. Around here, if you get bumped to 4.5 you have to start driving a long way to your matches. God forbid you make 5.0. I think there's like 2 teams in the whole city.

kylebarendrick
11-12-2009, 10:01 AM
And why should the rest of us also have good reason to believe that?

You don't - I may just be a maniac. I trust 10sguy though.

catfish
11-12-2009, 10:14 AM
I hope this is true. The levels get stagnant and it does get old when people get bumped up and appeal back down over and over again.

goober
11-12-2009, 10:51 AM
Boy, I hope the rumor is true. This bunching of female players at 3.0 and 3.5 has got to stop.

I guess it depends on the area. Around here all the females are bunched at 3.5 and 4.0 with a fair amount at 4.5.

3.0 however is dead with only a small number of teams.

kennydoe
11-12-2009, 01:12 PM
I can shed a little light on this and it's based on a lot of heresay, so I can't vounch for its validity...but it does make sense.

Here on Long Island (maybe elsewhere as well), a bunch of 5.0 teams took on Division-I college players who self-rated at 5.0

For those unfamiliar, Division-I college players will outplay a "normal" 5.0 player pretty easily. The "normal" 5.0 players get destroyed by these college players and subsequently got bumped down to 4.5, so now there are 5.0 players playing at 4.5 and blowing out the 'normal' 4.5 players....etc etc etc, and on down the line.

They apparently need to s-t-r-e-t-c-h out the rating system now because of this.

We've seen it happen here - and there is now a major discrepancy at the 4.5 level between the top and bottom players in the level.

Maybe somebody here can confirm or deny this....
~Kenny (who only wishes he were that good!)

Islandtennis
11-12-2009, 01:37 PM
The percentage of 3.5's is quite a bit higher than it has been in the past.

damazing
11-12-2009, 03:41 PM
Would this mean that people may get bumped more than a level? i.e. 3.0 bumped to 4.0 or 3.5 bumped to 4.5

10sguy
11-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Would this mean that people may get bumped more than a level? i.e. 3.0 bumped to 4.0 or 3.5 bumped to 4.5

No, not unless an exceptional player - let's take a 3.0, for example - who would, under normal circumstances, be going to advance to a fairly high 3.5 level. This COULD result in just a few such players jumping a whole 1.0 level. I would expect this to be very rare though.

OrangePower
11-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I do think there is going to be a significant 'shifting' of players next season from each level to the next higher level. However, I think most of this effect is going to come because of the new appeal rules that will limit appeals.

In my area, probably 15%-20% of all the 4.0s last season were actually 4.0A (appealed down from 4.5). And probably were an even higher percentage in terms of matches actually played, since these are the better players and tend to be put into more matches than the weaker 4.0s. So having these players now be 4.5s is going to change the landscape significantly.

If in addition the USTA is readjusting the rating algorithms so that even more get bumped, then it will be total mayhem. Better that they make one change at a time (i.e. just enact the appeal rule change for now, and see where it leaves things).

10sguy
11-13-2009, 06:32 PM
I do think there is going to be a significant 'shifting' of players next season from each level to the next higher level. However, I think most of this effect is going to come because of the new appeal rules that will limit appeals.

In my area, probably 15%-20% of all the 4.0s last season were actually 4.0A (appealed down from 4.5). And probably were an even higher percentage in terms of matches actually played, since these are the better players and tend to be put into more matches than the weaker 4.0s. So having these players now be 4.5s is going to change the landscape significantly.

If in addition the USTA is readjusting the rating algorithms so that even more get bumped, then it will be total mayhem. Better that they make one change at a time (i.e. just enact the appeal rule change for now, and see where it leaves things).

Only those with access 'inside the numbers' will know what will cause how much of the effect . . . but my guess is the "bump up" of players who would otherwise be at the top of their NTRP level will (along with "ineligible for appeals due to playing five or more matches in the rating year" and benchmarks) will significantly change the landscape - FOR THE BETTER!
Heck, maybe even chronic complainer "Joey-what's-his-name" will get his long sought after 5.0 (but we'll all know it's "tainted," right?). All of you who have him blocked will LOVE that!

I say, "Bring on the mayhem (your words)." It'll be great for many players who have never been to Nationals, Sectionals and have maybe just tasted Districts once or twice.

raiden031
11-13-2009, 06:43 PM
Only those with access 'inside the numbers' will know what will cause how much of the effect . . . but my guess is the "bump up" of players who would otherwise be at the top of their NTRP level will (along with "ineligible for appeals due to playing five or more matches in the rating year" and benchmarks) will significantly change the landscape - FOR THE BETTER!
Heck, maybe even chronic complainer "Joey-what's-his-name" will get his long sought after 5.0 (but we'll all know it's "tainted," right?). All of you who have him blocked will LOVE that!

I say, "Bring on the mayhem (your words)." It'll be great for many players who have never been to Nationals, Sectionals and have maybe just tasted Districts once or twice.

I read the new USTA regulations and dont recall reading about any 5 match appeal rule. Did I miss this, or is it not documented? If so then I doubt it will be happening, otherwise why wouldn't it be in the regulations?

I think the 'appeal problem' is grossly exaggerated. I've only known a few appeal players, but its changed alot already after the new non-appeal for benchmark players went into effect last year. What I find helpful would be if they indeed update the algorithm to stretch the ratings more.

10sguy
11-13-2009, 06:46 PM
I read the new USTA regulations and dont recall reading about any 5 match appeal rule. Did I miss this, or is it not documented? If so then I doubt it will be happening, otherwise why wouldn't it be in the regulations?.

Don't know if it's "documented" but yet . . . BELIEVE IT!

raiden031
11-13-2009, 06:51 PM
Don't know if it's "documented" but yet . . . BELIEVE IT!

Maybe in 2011. I just think its odd that when they changed the rules last year, it was documented well in advance. They've already documented a bunch of changes for 2010. Since you don't know, I either need to re-read it, or a betcha it ain't happenin this year.

fe6250
11-14-2009, 09:06 AM
Any ideas on when year-end ratings are supposed to be published? Typically they seem to happen in late November. Just wondered if there was a 'target' date yet.

On the topic - it is hard for anyone to know for sure what the effect will be, but in general it seems like a good move as it appears we need to spread things out a bit as so many are bunching up in the 3.5 / 4.0 levels. I know many of us find ourselves sort of between levels, but won't this just move the 'between' area somewhere else?

OrangePower
11-14-2009, 10:35 AM
I read the new USTA regulations and dont recall reading about any 5 match appeal rule. Did I miss this, or is it not documented? If so then I doubt it will be happening, otherwise why wouldn't it be in the regulations?

Don't know if it's "documented" but yet . . . BELIEVE IT!

Maybe in 2011. I just think its odd that when they changed the rules last year, it was documented well in advance. They've already documented a bunch of changes for 2010. Since you don't know, I either need to re-read it, or a betcha it ain't happenin this year.

Believe it. It's documented, at least in Norcal. I posted about this back in July:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=277370

Edit: Looks like the link I posted in my original thread is dead. But take a look here:

http://www.norcal.usta.com/sitecore/content/NorCal/Global/Custom%20Pages/General/21545_Rating_Information_Automatic_appeals.aspx

Looks like they have made the language a little more vague: "Effective 2010, appeals will be granted only for players whose rating falls within the allowed margin AND who have limited match playing history".

Previously they had defined limited match playing history as 5 or 6 rated matches. Now they are leaving it more open - maybe trying to give themselves some wiggle room?

But at any rate, there is definitely going to be a further restriction on automatic appeals for 2010, at least in Norcal. And I think that's a good thing - even though I will probably be one of the casualties of this rule :-)

OrangePower
11-14-2009, 10:47 AM
Only those with access 'inside the numbers' will know what will cause how much of the effect . . . but my guess is the "bump up" of players who would otherwise be at the top of their NTRP level will (along with "ineligible for appeals due to playing five or more matches in the rating year" and benchmarks) will significantly change the landscape - FOR THE BETTER!
Heck, maybe even chronic complainer "Joey-what's-his-name" will get his long sought after 5.0 (but we'll all know it's "tainted," right?). All of you who have him blocked will LOVE that!

I say, "Bring on the mayhem (your words)." It'll be great for many players who have never been to Nationals, Sectionals and have maybe just tasted Districts once or twice.

Don't get me wrong, I think this would be a great change in the long run.

I would just spread the changes out over 2 seasons (1 season for the "no automatic appeal" change, next season for the "adjust rating algorithm to bump more players up" change.

Ratings come out end Nov / early Dec, and people are already signing teams up in Jan (at least that's the calendar here in Norcal). So if too many people are impacted in one go, there's not much time for prospective captains to determine if they are going to be able to put a team together.

One team I played on last season would be a good example: We had 13 regulars on the roster. Of those, the captain figures on losing 4 or 5 due to bump ups with no appeals. If that's the extent of it, he can recruit enough new players to still field a team. But let's say that because of changes to the rating algorithm, he ends up losing 7-8 players. If that's the case he would probably not be able to put a team together in time.

Topaz
11-14-2009, 11:58 AM
Hmmm, will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I like the further restrictions on appeals. Personally I don't see it abused too much in this area, but I know it happens. Does this also apply to medical appeals, though?

We don't have ES ratings in my section, and I have to admit to being confused by them...so, if you get an ES rating, must you play at the rating or can you continue at your old rating (assuming a change in the ES) until the 'real' ratings come out? What is the purpose really? And how can some areas be in their second 2010 season? Lol, when does it end? Shall we just get a jump on 2011 while we're at it? ;)

herrburgess
11-14-2009, 11:59 AM
Don't get me wrong, I think this would be a great change in the long run.

I would just spread the changes out over 2 seasons (1 season for the "no automatic appeal" change, next season for the "adjust rating algorithm to bump more players up" change.

Ratings come out end Nov / early Dec, and people are already signing teams up in Jan (at least that's the calendar here in Norcal). So if too many people are impacted in one go, there's not much time for prospective captains to determine if they are going to be able to put a team together.

One team I played on last season would be a good example: We had 13 regulars on the roster. Of those, the captain figures on losing 4 or 5 due to bump ups with no appeals. If that's the extent of it, he can recruit enough new players to still field a team. But let's say that because of changes to the rating algorithm, he ends up losing 7-8 players. If that's the case he would probably not be able to put a team together in time.

This may explain, however, the urgent tone of my local coordinator's recent e-mail regarding MAJOR CHANGES (that I posted about in another thread). My suspicion is that they have truly made significant changes, perhaps even in the NTRP logarithm. They even have an NTRP "expert" on hand for the meeting. We'll see (meeting's at 2:30 tomorrow)...

Topaz
11-14-2009, 12:01 PM
This may explain, however, the urgent tone of my local coordinator's recent e-mail regarding MAJOR CHANGES (that I posted about in another thread). My suspicion is that they have truly made significant changes, perhaps even in the NTRP logarithm. They even have an NTRP "expert" on hand for the meeting. We'll see (meeting's at 2:30 tomorrow)...

Wow, you guys have meetings? Please report back, I'm all curious now (though I don't think I'm moving this year at all). I'm on the 'captain's email list' for our area, and I haven't heard a peep from our local coordinator!

herrburgess
11-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Wow, you guys have meetings? Please report back, I'm all curious now (though I don't think I'm moving this year at all). I'm on the 'captain's email list' for our area, and I haven't heard a peep from our local coordinator!

Yea, this is the first meeting I've been to locally (been to them at States, etc.). Must be important. And now I'm thinking I might get the "double bump," as I went 6-0 in the Spring playing up at the next level. I'll report back tomorrow.

Topaz
11-14-2009, 12:20 PM
^^^Thanks! I appreciate it!

We usually have one meeting in mid-Feb to prepare for our regular USTA season, but since ratings come out soon and it sounds like some might get a shocking surprise, it would be good to know beforehand.

JavierLW
11-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Believe it. It's documented, at least in Norcal. I posted about this back in July:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=277370

Edit: Looks like the link I posted in my original thread is dead. But take a look here:

http://www.norcal.usta.com/sitecore/content/NorCal/Global/Custom%20Pages/General/21545_Rating_Information_Automatic_appeals.aspx

Looks like they have made the language a little more vague: "Effective 2010, appeals will be granted only for players whose rating falls within the allowed margin AND who have limited match playing history".

Previously they had defined limited match playing history as 5 or 6 rated matches. Now they are leaving it more open - maybe trying to give themselves some wiggle room?

But at any rate, there is definitely going to be a further restriction on automatic appeals for 2010, at least in Norcal. And I think that's a good thing - even though I will probably be one of the casualties of this rule :-)

The fact that it's not on www.usta.com as a new rule means it's not a new rule, that's a FACT.

I believe it may of been on there, but maybe it was taken away.

It's likely Norcal just likes the idea so they are keeping it in since ultimately the section gets to decide whether to accept an appeal or not, and I believe they are not using tennislink directly so perhaps they can better accommodate something like that. (I heard once that they charge you money if you appeal your rating as well, where other sections practically hold your hand to get everyone to auto-appeal)

Im not sure where 10sguy comes up with this stuff. It's true, they tweak the formulas sometimes to create certain affects, but you hear all sorts of storys from within the sections themselves that dont pan out.

Cruzer
11-14-2009, 05:03 PM
Based on the ESR's in Norcal it seems a certainty that the final year end ratings will generally be higher than at the beginning of the year. Obviously the USTA is redefining what the playing abilities are for each level. The vast majority of the Norcal ESR's had players' ratings going up. The reality is 99% of the players with higher ESR's are not playing any better than they were a year ago although some believe that since their USTA rating went up they must be better players.

Islandtennis
11-14-2009, 05:57 PM
Yea, this is the first meeting I've been to locally (been to them at States, etc.). Must be important. And now I'm thinking I might get the "double bump," as I went 6-0 in the Spring playing up at the next level. I'll report back tomorrow.


Herr,

My suspicion is that your report will be anticlimatic, but it is good to go to your local meetings.

J011yroger
11-14-2009, 06:44 PM
I can shed a little light on this and it's based on a lot of heresay, so I can't vounch for its validity...but it does make sense.

Here on Long Island (maybe elsewhere as well), a bunch of 5.0 teams took on Division-I college players who self-rated at 5.0

For those unfamiliar, Division-I college players will outplay a "normal" 5.0 player pretty easily. The "normal" 5.0 players get destroyed by these college players and subsequently got bumped down to 4.5, so now there are 5.0 players playing at 4.5 and blowing out the 'normal' 4.5 players....etc etc etc, and on down the line.

They apparently need to s-t-r-e-t-c-h out the rating system now because of this.

We've seen it happen here - and there is now a major discrepancy at the 4.5 level between the top and bottom players in the level.

Maybe somebody here can confirm or deny this....
~Kenny (who only wishes he were that good!)

Kenny, E-mail me if you ever want to get together for a hit. I live about 15 mins away from you. Have met up and hit with about 40 board members, who can vouch that I am not an axe murderer or otherwise wierdo.

J

amarone
11-14-2009, 06:58 PM
We don't have ES ratings in my section, and I have to admit to being confused by them...so, if you get an ES rating, must you play at the rating or can you continue at your old rating (assuming a change in the ES) until the 'real' ratings come out? What is the purpose really? And how can some areas be in their second 2010 season? Lol, when does it end? Shall we just get a jump on 2011 while we're at it? ;) You must play at your ES rating - that is what they are for. National ratings do not come out until end of November/start of December, so any area that starts its next championship season before then must produce ES ratings to govern roster eligibility.

You mention 2011. Georgia will produce its first ES ratings for 2011 in March of 2010, so not long to wait.

amarone
11-14-2009, 07:03 PM
The fact that it's not on www.usta.com as a new rule means it's not a new rule, that's a FACT.A change in how NTRP is managed is not a rule change and hence will not be documented as such. Trust me, the appeals process has changed such that appeals fail if the player has played a certain number of matches. As already mentioned, I was told that 6 matches was the limit, but 5 has also been mentioned in this thread.

TennisLink was giving a message to players as to why their appeal had failed and was stating the fact that they had played x matches. That message was removed, but the algorithm did not change.

I assume that it is part of the USTA's policy of not giving out too much information about how NTRP works so as to minimize the possibility of players taking unfair advantage.

JavierLW
11-14-2009, 08:12 PM
A change in how NTRP is managed is not a rule change and hence will not be documented as such. Trust me, the appeals process has changed such that appeals fail if the player has played a certain number of matches. As already mentioned, I was told that 6 matches was the limit, but 5 has also been mentioned in this thread.

TennisLink was giving a message to players as to why their appeal had failed and was stating the fact that they had played x matches. That message was removed, but the algorithm did not change.

I assume that it is part of the USTA's policy of not giving out too much information about how NTRP works so as to minimize the possibility of players taking unfair advantage.

Was this when the ESR's were appealed? (since obviously year end ratings are not out yet)

I did notice that the website used to talk about how the auto-appeal would work if you fell within .05 (or .10 for a senior), but now it seems to not say anything about that. So maybe they are totally trying to hide how appeals are granted.

Topaz
11-15-2009, 02:28 AM
You must play at your ES rating - that is what they are for. National ratings do not come out until end of November/start of December, so any area that starts its next championship season before then must produce ES ratings to govern roster eligibility.

You mention 2011. Georgia will produce its first ES ratings for 2011 in March of 2010, so not long to wait.

Hmm, ok, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, our first 'official' season starts in January, so we wouldn't have a need for ESR.

Has it ever happened that someone gets bumped up in the ESR, starts playing on a team at that new rating, and then gets bumped back down with the 'real' ratings in NOV/DEC? I would imagine that would really screw a player (and their team) over, but maybe it really doesn't happen much?

But why in the world would a 2011 season start in March of 2010?!? Must be a loooong season!

amarone
11-15-2009, 02:55 AM
Was this when the ESR's were appealed? (since obviously year end ratings are not out yet)
Yes - Georgia ESRs were published in August.

amarone
11-15-2009, 03:02 AM
Has it ever happened that someone gets bumped up in the ESR, starts playing on a team at that new rating, and then gets bumped back down with the 'real' ratings in NOV/DEC? I would imagine that would really screw a player (and their team) over, but maybe it really doesn't happen much? I would expect so, but I don't see how that would screw anyone over. It is still the same player, so the team has got what they expect.

Note that Atlanta has just started a season (yesterday, in fact). A player who gets bumped down in the National Ratings will be allow to join a team at his new lower level after the National Rating comes out. A player who is bumped up in the National Ratings will be allowed to stay on his current team.

But why in the world would a 2011 season start in March of 2010?!? Must be a loooong season! It doesn't start in March. The ES ratings are published in March. The season starts in late May and finishes in late August. That is too late to be completed in time for District championships for that year. The second season starts in November (ESRs published in August), and completes in February.

Islandtennis
11-15-2009, 07:58 AM
Amarone, you have a better handle on what is happening than does 10sguy

Topaz
11-15-2009, 08:13 AM
I would expect so, but I don't see how that would screw anyone over. It is still the same player, so the team has got what they expect.

Note that Atlanta has just started a season (yesterday, in fact). A player who gets bumped down in the National Ratings will be allow to join a team at his new lower level after the National Rating comes out. A player who is bumped up in the National Ratings will be allowed to stay on his current team.

It doesn't start in March. The ES ratings are published in March. The season starts in late May and finishes in late August. That is too late to be completed in time for District championships for that year. The second season starts in November (ESRs published in August), and completes in February.

I was thinking that players/captains would get screwed if the people were not allowed to stay and play out the season, but since they do, well then, that makes more sense.

Thanks for the explanations. Since our leagues don't 'cross' the district year, I'm just unfamiliar with how ESR work.

kennydoe
11-15-2009, 01:26 PM
Kenny, E-mail me if you ever want to get together for a hit. I live about 15 mins away from you. Have met up and hit with about 40 board members, who can vouch that I am not an axe murderer or otherwise wierdo.

J


I've seen your videos - i think i'd rather play with an axe murderer if you know any :twisted: - it would probably be more fun for both of us.

Seriously though - I'm nowhere near your level, and while I always love to 'play up', I'm not sure it would be much fun for you.

If you want to hit with a 3.5, I certainly won't deny you the privlege - let me know.
~Kenny

herrburgess
11-15-2009, 01:30 PM
A change in how NTRP is managed is not a rule change and hence will not be documented as such. Trust me, the appeals process has changed such that appeals fail if the player has played a certain number of matches. As already mentioned, I was told that 6 matches was the limit, but 5 has also been mentioned in this thread.

TennisLink was giving a message to players as to why their appeal had failed and was stating the fact that they had played x matches. That message was removed, but the algorithm did not change.

I assume that it is part of the USTA's policy of not giving out too much information about how NTRP works so as to minimize the possibility of players taking unfair advantage.

Just returned from the IMPORTANT meeting and got to talk to the Director of NTRP, Self-Rate Appeals, and NTRP Grievances for the Southern Section. Without being too specific, he said that they are constantly tweaking how NTRP is managed (but not that ratings will definitely be higher), and also said that people who play 6 matches that are recognized by the computer as affecting dynamic ratings will not be eligible for appeal.

raiden031
11-15-2009, 02:48 PM
Believe it. It's documented, at least in Norcal. I posted about this back in July:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=277370

Edit: Looks like the link I posted in my original thread is dead. But take a look here:

http://www.norcal.usta.com/sitecore/content/NorCal/Global/Custom%20Pages/General/21545_Rating_Information_Automatic_appeals.aspx

Looks like they have made the language a little more vague: "Effective 2010, appeals will be granted only for players whose rating falls within the allowed margin AND who have limited match playing history".

Previously they had defined limited match playing history as 5 or 6 rated matches. Now they are leaving it more open - maybe trying to give themselves some wiggle room?

But at any rate, there is definitely going to be a further restriction on automatic appeals for 2010, at least in Norcal. And I think that's a good thing - even though I will probably be one of the casualties of this rule :-)

Looks like you're probably right. I can no longer find any documentation whatsoever that talks about appeal criteria such as automatic appeals being granted for .05/.10. Now it just says what rating categories are allowed to appeal, but not when they will be granted or denied.

OrangePower
11-15-2009, 03:09 PM
Just returned from the IMPORTANT meeting and got to talk to the Director of NTRP, Self-Rate Appeals, and NTRP Grievances for the Southern Section. Without being too specific, he said that they are constantly tweaking how NTRP is managed (but not that ratings will definitely be higher), and also said that people who play 6 matches that are recognized by the computer as affecting dynamic ratings will not be eligible for appeal.

Ok, pretty much what we've all been speculating. Thanks for reporting back. Now we wait for year-end ratings to come out in a few weeks... gonna be interesting!

J011yroger
11-15-2009, 04:41 PM
I've seen your videos - i think i'd rather play with an axe murderer if you know any :twisted: - it would probably be more fun for both of us.

Seriously though - I'm nowhere near your level, and while I always love to 'play up', I'm not sure it would be much fun for you.

If you want to hit with a 3.5, I certainly won't deny you the privlege - let me know.
~Kenny

How about we get together in the spring one day then? I am sure I can set you up with a few people if you are looking to expand your hitting circles. Or if you wanted to meet up at one of the tennis parties, that way we could eat and drink too.

I usually go to a few every winter, the food is good, you get a ton of court time, and when the sissys start to clear out, you can play singles.

Send me an e-mail whenever.

J

Islandtennis
11-16-2009, 02:50 AM
Just returned from the IMPORTANT meeting and got to talk to the Director of NTRP, Self-Rate Appeals, and NTRP Grievances for the Southern Section. Without being too specific, he said that they are constantly tweaking how NTRP is managed (but not that ratings will definitely be higher), and also said that people who play 6 matches that are recognized by the computer as affecting dynamic ratings will not be eligible for appeal.


no message

kennydoe
11-16-2009, 11:58 AM
How about we get together in the spring one day then? I am sure I can set you up with a few people if you are looking to expand your hitting circles. Or if you wanted to meet up at one of the tennis parties, that way we could eat and drink too.

I usually go to a few every winter, the food is good, you get a ton of court time, and when the sissys start to clear out, you can play singles.

Send me an e-mail whenever.

J

I'm happy to make new tennis friends - wife and i hit the parties occasionally - we like Carefree the best...I'm SURE you'd be dissapointed hitting iwth me, but she's a much better player than I am. What town are you in?

J011yroger
11-16-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm happy to make new tennis friends - wife and i hit the parties occasionally - we like Carefree the best...I'm SURE you'd be dissapointed hitting iwth me, but she's a much better player than I am. What town are you in?

Sent you an e-mail.

J

10sguy
11-17-2009, 08:56 PM
Amarone, you have a better handle on what is happening than does 10sguy

10sguy does not pretend to know how the Southern Section operates!

Islandtennis
11-18-2009, 04:49 AM
I was referring to nationally not Southern. You were close at 5, but Amarone was correct about the 6 matches needed to not be able to appeal. Didn't mean to offend you. You seem to know what you are talking about.

You are very insightful and knowledgeable about your bump ups and also agree that it is a good thing

Kostas
11-18-2009, 09:37 AM
In regards to the 6-match appeal I emailed our state league coordinator and she replied:

"Basically what you have is correct. I would like to add some clarification concerning this change.
If a player has 6 or more match ratings, he/she will not be eligible for an appeal.
Not all matches produce ratings at the end of the year.
o 6-0, 6-0 matches, for example, do not produce a rating at year end.
o So if you played 6 matches and one of them was a 6-0, 6-0 match, you could still have an appeal granted (provided you were within the appeal range).
o There are other times when matches don’t produce ratings also. Some matches involving Self-rated players don’t produce ratings for their computer rated opponents.
As to the why of it—The more matches a player plays, the more the player’s rating stabilizes. It has been determined by the National Oversight group, that after 6 matches that calculate, the rating is stable enough to not need the range of appeal. "

dennis10is
11-18-2009, 05:57 PM
I can shed a little light on this and it's based on a lot of heresay, so I can't vounch for its validity...but it does make sense.

Here on Long Island (maybe elsewhere as well), a bunch of 5.0 teams took on Division-I college players who self-rated at 5.0

For those unfamiliar, Division-I college players will outplay a "normal" 5.0 player pretty easily. The "normal" 5.0 players get destroyed by these college players and subsequently got bumped down to 4.5, so now there are 5.0 players playing at 4.5 and blowing out the 'normal' 4.5 players....etc etc etc, and on down the line.

They apparently need to s-t-r-e-t-c-h out the rating system now because of this.

We've seen it happen here - and there is now a major discrepancy at the 4.5 level between the top and bottom players in the level.

Maybe somebody here can confirm or deny this....
~Kenny (who only wishes he were that good!)

Kenny,

I've seen a couple of the 5.0 men's matches and it is always the case that the singles player is a complete ringer and if they want to win they would stack one of the doubles thereby assuring them of 2 of 3 points.

Isn't this "expected" at 5.0? It is basically, unrestricted or Open. If you are 5.0+ you make up your own league and play one another instead of relying on USTA. There is an invitation only league on the island.

I assume that other places will have a 5.5 league, so for these places, the 5.5 would be the unrestricted level.

dennis10is
11-18-2009, 06:00 PM
I've seen your videos - i think i'd rather play with an axe murderer if you know any :twisted: - it would probably be more fun for both of us.

Seriously though - I'm nowhere near your level, and while I always love to 'play up', I'm not sure it would be much fun for you.

If you want to hit with a 3.5, I certainly won't deny you the privlege - let me know.
~Kenny

Kenny,

You are too modest. Jolly is a 3.0 accord to the correct rating system. You'll be able to handle him easily.

10sguy
11-19-2009, 08:43 AM
I was referring to nationally not Southern. You were close at 5, but Amarone was correct about the 6 matches needed to not be able to appeal. Didn't mean to offend you. You seem to know what you are talking about.

You are very insightful and knowledgeable about your bump ups and also agree that it is a good thing

Thanks . . . jus realized from whence the "5" came; I have a recollection of it being described as "more than 5 (matches in the system)" - as it was later fully detailed by Kostas' State League Coordinator. ALSO NOTE: "NOG" is the acronym for NTRP Oversight Group (NOT "National Oversight Group").

Blade0324
11-19-2009, 05:24 PM
This is all very interesting bantor and it seems that some of you have some insight on the upcoming year end ratings. I like to think I am about as knowledgeable as an average person can be on NTRP and ratings but have not heard any peeps about any of this in the intermountain region. I really hope that there is a significant increase in bumps this year as we have a pretty good group in my area that has appealed several times and been moved back down simply so that they can play mixed doubles at a lower level. It would be nice for these sissys to have to play at a good level.

vizsla
11-20-2009, 03:30 AM
I just heard that our local board had a meeting two nights ago and that it was announced that 35% of 3.5 men will be bumped and 15% of 4.0 men.

JavierLW
11-20-2009, 06:24 AM
I just heard that our local board had a meeting two nights ago and that it was announced that 35% of 3.5 men will be bumped and 15% of 4.0 men.

Wow, I wish the ratings would just come out already, so we could start talking about what ACTUALLY happened versus what's going to happen....

I could see them doing something like this just for certain sections to attempt to balance things out, but not necessarily everywhere.

(but if they do that, then they are acknowledging that the current benchmark system does not help balance out ratings, it pretty much does the opposite, it pounds all of the ratings down in some cases.....)

fe6250
11-20-2009, 10:30 AM
I just heard that our local board had a meeting two nights ago and that it was announced that 35% of 3.5 men will be bumped and 15% of 4.0 men.

What region are you in? I hope this is true as we have a glut at 3.5 here locally and the range of talent in the 3.5 ranks is far too broad. We also have an elite set of 4.0s that need to move up. This percentage shift would be about perfect in my view.

I'm also with Javier - Post the year-end ratings so we can quit talking about it!

vizsla
11-20-2009, 11:33 AM
Southern --- South Carolina

Topaz
11-20-2009, 11:43 AM
What region are you in? I hope this is true as we have a glut at 3.5 here locally and the range of talent in the 3.5 ranks is far too broad. We also have an elite set of 4.0s that need to move up. This percentage shift would be about perfect in my view.

I'm also with Javier - Post the year-end ratings so we can quit talking about it!

Has anyone heard a date yet? I think last year it was the very beginning of December?

vagabondma
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
According to USTA Florida website, the first week of December. They already have the early start ratings posted.

http://www.usatennisflorida.usta.com/Global/Custom%20Pages/USA%20League%20Tennis%20Pages/8445_NTRP_Ratings.aspx

vizsla
11-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Agree about "why not release the ratings now"? Heard that they are ready for release.

Hope my local coordinator can answer that question, being it will best to start there for everybody to ask their respective local coordinators. Gotta start at the bottom of the chain of command ;)

vizsla
11-20-2009, 12:04 PM
PS Also heard an email will be sent out the day prior to release indicating the unusual number of bump ups. I think though that it may be a local email (district or sectional). IF anybody from Southern or SC (chain of command) is reading this, please state if this is true.

Thank you kindly

JavierLW
11-20-2009, 12:06 PM
Agree about "why not release the ratings now"? Heard that they are ready for release.

Hope my local coordinator can answer that question, being it will best to start there for everybody to ask their respective local coordinators. Gotta start at the bottom of the chain of command ;)

Ya, Im not sure local coordinators really have anything to do with ratings. It's all done by computer for one, and they typically only release the "secret" info to the section coordinators or district ones at the lowest.

I hear all sorts of storys from local coordinators, they are not always true. Unless they attending some USTA meeting recently. (with national people)

vizsla
11-20-2009, 12:09 PM
They don't have anything to do with ratings but probably at least have some info they can post on the respective local websites

catfish
11-20-2009, 12:30 PM
Ya, Im not sure local coordinators really have anything to do with ratings. It's all done by computer for one, and they typically only release the "secret" info to the section coordinators or district ones at the lowest.

I hear all sorts of storys from local coordinators, they are not always true. Unless they attending some USTA meeting recently. (with national people)

You are correct. Local coordinators have nothing to do with ratings. Many District coordinators don't either. Local coordinators usually just get notified when ratings come out so they can alert their captains. Thats about the extent of their involvement. All the LC's are anxiously awaiting new ratings too.

JavierLW
11-20-2009, 01:21 PM
You are correct. Local coordinators have nothing to do with ratings. Many District coordinators don't either. Local coordinators usually just get notified when ratings come out so they can alert their captains. Thats about the extent of their involvement. All the LC's are anxiously awaiting new ratings too.

Yep that was my experience as well.

Typically in some areas like mine, they make rumors about how "their" players will or wont get moved up. They are just as much out of the loop as we are.

I feel like this is when I used to work at a newspaper station and the paper delivery children who were too lazy to come and wait would keep calling up every 5 minutes to ask "are the papers there yet?".

As if I had some magical inside information over anyone else who was just standing around waiting for the newspaper truck to arrive....

damazing
11-20-2009, 01:35 PM
For some reason this waiting for the Year End Ratings makes me think of the scene in the Steve Martin film the Jerk when he got the new phone book.

When they come out I envision all of the TW posters jumping up and down in front of their computer screens yelling "The new NTRP's are here! The new NTRP's are here!"

Topaz
11-20-2009, 01:41 PM
For some reason this waiting for the Year End Ratings makes me think of the scene in the Steve Martin film the Jerk when he got the new phone book.

When they come out I envision all of the TW posters jumping up and down in front of their computer screens yelling "The new NTRP's are here! The new NTRP's are here!"

Uh yup, it is pretty much that way here every year! :)

catfish
11-20-2009, 03:08 PM
The day year end ratings come out is the biggest day of the year in the world of league tennis. Emails start flying around saying, "Did you hear that player XYZ got bumped up and player ZYX got bumped down?" And the captains who's lives depend on making it to post season start getting on the phone calling players from higher levels who got bumped down. It's a crazy day!

sunshinez
11-20-2009, 03:53 PM
From What I have seen about 30% will be getting move up to the next level. If you are in a early start league you will need to use your new rating after the year end rating come out.

JavierLW
11-20-2009, 04:10 PM
From What I have seen about 30% will be getting move up to the next level.

are you basing this on the early start ratings? cant imagine what else anyone has "seen".

btw, "ARE THE RATINGS OUT YET??????"

10sguy
11-20-2009, 04:19 PM
I just heard that our local board had a meeting two nights ago and that it was announced that 35% of 3.5 men will be bumped and 15% of 4.0 men.

That would be good; would probably move me up but I'm OK with that too (no, ego not involved). Regarding "when," my impression is the Secions get the ratings early - in order to have an opportunity to review to determine if there are any inconsistencies or obvious errors (which they could probably feed back to National for review/possible correction) . . . then the year-end ratings are released - for our ravenous consumption! (sounds like I'm ready for Thanksgiving Dinner, doesn't it?)

OK, so going STRICTLY by the numbers - and if you make the mathematical assumption the NTRP numbers are spread evenly across the board, one could then surmise that, in the case of 3.5's, the 35 percent would include players with year-end (extended to hundreths) ratings of approximately 3.32 to 3.49. Players within that range would probably receive an automatic (.xx) bump to where they's now be 3.51 to 3.68 (or so). The same/similar thing would tend to occur with 4.0's where, going by the numbers suggested above, players with year-end extended ratings of approximately 3.92 to 3.99 would get bumped to 4.01 to 4.09 (or so). I did this quickly and these numbers are guesstimates based on the above post - but you get the idea.

We'll all know (something) within 10 days or so!

JavierLW
11-20-2009, 04:32 PM
That would be good; would probably move me up but I'm OK with that too (no, ego not involved). Regarding "when," my impression is the Secions get the ratings early - in order to have an opportunity to review to determine if there are any inconsistencies or obvious errors (which they could probably feed back to National for review/possible correction) . . . then the year-end ratings are released - for our ravenous consumption! (sounds like I'm ready for Thanksgiving Dinner, doesn't it?)

OK, so going STRICTLY by the numbers - and if you make the mathematical assumption the NTRP numbers are spread evenly across the board, one could then surmise that, in the case of 3.5's, the 35 percent would include players with year-end (extended to hundreths) ratings of approximately 3.32 to 3.49. Players within that range would probably receive an automatic (.xx) bump to where they's now be 3.51 to 3.68 (or so). The same/similar thing would tend to occur with 4.0's where, going by the numbers suggested above, players with year-end extended ratings of approximately 3.92 to 3.99 would get bumped to 4.01 to 4.09 (or so). I did this quickly and these numbers are guesstimates based on the above post - but you get the idea.

We'll all know (something) within 10 days or so!

Ya I figure some fuzzy math bean counting like that would occur.

Im not sure why people have this much trouble fathoming why it's simply normal to have more participants in one level versus another?

If you find 100 brand new players today and you watch their progress, over 3 years, I assure you, most of them will end up in 3.0, 3.5, and some in 4.0.

If you take another peek 7 years from now it still wont change much. (most players simply dont make it to 4.0 or better, it takes a lot more work and when you're talking about adults, most adults dont have that kind of time...)

Your calculations are pointless because:

1) You cant prove the above percentages

2) You are right away assuming that everyone is spread out evenly within each level, you dont know that thus it ruins your calculations.

Im all for moving people up that should be moved up, but I have trouble believing the league is going to do something that drastic for the entire nation.

It's more likely they might just be just balancing out certain sections. Doing that would make more sense then relying on the benchmark ratings system like they do currently because those screw up the ratings more then anything half the time. (usually close losers from one level of play have a better chance of getting moved up then the teams that beat them who go on to lose at a higher level)

SuperLotto
11-20-2009, 04:49 PM
Will the higher increases be from men only? One of the posts indiciated that 35% of the men would be bumped. I find that pretty hard to believe. 35% is a large number.

vizsla
11-20-2009, 06:31 PM
those % i mentioned are just the local 3.5 and 4.0 men in my local league (from what i heard).

SuperLotto
11-20-2009, 07:45 PM
The calculation for NTRP is a national calculation. So, if you were given percentages for your local league, wouldn't it be safe to assume that would apply nationally? Did you hear anything about the women's calculations? R they different"

10sguy
11-20-2009, 10:26 PM
Ya I figure some fuzzy math bean counting like that would occur.

Im not sure why people have this much trouble fathoming why it's simply normal to have more participants in one level versus another?

If you find 100 brand new players today and you watch their progress, over 3 years, I assure you, most of them will end up in 3.0, 3.5, and some in 4.0.

If you take another peek 7 years from now it still wont change much. (most players simply dont make it to 4.0 or better, it takes a lot more work and when you're talking about adults, most adults dont have that kind of time...)

Your calculations are pointless because:

1) You cant prove the above percentages

2) You are right away assuming that everyone is spread out evenly within each level, you dont know that thus it ruins your calculations.

Im all for moving people up that should be moved up, but I have trouble believing the league is going to do something that drastic for the entire nation.

It's more likely they might just be just balancing out certain sections. Doing that would make more sense then relying on the benchmark ratings system like they do currently because those screw up the ratings more then anything half the time. (usually close losers from one level of play have a better chance of getting moved up then the teams that beat them who go on to lose at a higher level)

"Pointless??" (that's a bit strong) Well, yes, perhaps but this whole thread is speculation based upon what has been leaked to some of us. Also, I believe I qualified my remarks by making it clear the examples were only based on an ASSUMPTION that ratings numbers were/are/might be spread evenly across the spectrum.

Yes, some Sections will be more affected than others - but that should only br a direct result of how well (or poorly) their respective championship teams fared at the Nationals. As we know, it all dribbles down from there.

10sguy
11-20-2009, 10:28 PM
The calculation for NTRP is a national calculation. So, if you were given percentages for your local league, wouldn't it be safe to assume that would apply nationally? Did you hear anything about the women's calculations? R they different"

My understanding is the ladies won't be bumped up as far as somw of the men's NTRP Groups.

10sguy
11-20-2009, 10:29 PM
those % i mentioned are just the local 3.5 and 4.0 men in my local league (from what i heard).

and that may be based on how well your championship teams did at Nationals . . . do you know?

JavierLW
11-21-2009, 06:58 AM
"Pointless??" (that's a bit strong) Well, yes, perhaps but this whole thread is speculation based upon what has been leaked to some of us. Also, I believe I qualified my remarks by making it clear the examples were only based on an ASSUMPTION that ratings numbers were/are/might be spread evenly across the spectrum.

Yes, some Sections will be more affected than others - but that should only br a direct result of how well (or poorly) their respective championship teams fared at the Nationals. As we know, it all dribbles down from there.

It's kind of like the Art Bell show (or "Coast to Coast").

They hear some supposed "facts" from a unreliable sources, and then they build on it, adding more speculation which is also unreliable (it is speculation after all) formulating an entire theory.

Then even after the ratings come out we'll have to deal with people who act like "that's how it works" because they dont know the difference between "assumption" and actual facts.

BTW, DO YOU KNOW IF THE RATINGS ARE OUT YET????

catfish
11-21-2009, 10:31 AM
Then even after the ratings come out we'll have to deal with people who act like "that's how it works" because they dont know the difference between "assumption" and actual facts.

BTW, DO YOU KNOW IF THE RATINGS ARE OUT YET????

Javier, that's funny. :) As a former local league coordinator, I know exactly what you mean. I have often said that many people get their personal opinions and speculations confused with actual facts. And pretty much everything we know about ratings is just speculation. We can all see the same information on the USTA websites, but we never know the actual rating formula, and we never know our true rating or our opponents true ratings. We only see the rounded off numbers. All we can do is make guesses about who gets moved up or down, or stays the same rating.

BTW, are the ratings out yet?

herrburgess
11-21-2009, 10:46 AM
It's kind of like the Art Bell show (or "Coast to Coast").

They hear some supposed "facts" from a unreliable sources, and then they build on it, adding more speculation which is also unreliable (it is speculation after all) formulating an entire theory.

Then even after the ratings come out we'll have to deal with people who act like "that's how it works" because they dont know the difference between "assumption" and actual facts.

BTW, DO YOU KNOW IF THE RATINGS ARE OUT YET????

I'd compare it more to speculating on college or professional sports. BTW, has the Superbowl champion been crowned yet? Jeez, can't people have a bit of fun speculating?

Topaz
11-21-2009, 11:48 AM
Hey, does anyone know if the ratings are out yet?

;)

JavierLW
11-21-2009, 03:33 PM
I'd compare it more to speculating on college or professional sports. BTW, has the Superbowl champion been crowned yet? Jeez, can't people have a bit of fun speculating?

It's nothing like that.

Nobody says "I just talked to someone and they told me that LSU is going to beat Auburn 39-15 this week".

"And if we further speculate the rest of the games we can accurately predict who will be in the Whatever Bowl this year. BELIEVE IT!!!"

Hint: We do not know who wins those games yet. Nobody does.

Nobody probably knows about the ratings either if they havent run them yet, but there IS a formula for what happens with those, and people running around claiming they know something does affect people's perceptions of it.

Islandtennis
11-21-2009, 04:12 PM
Javier,

With due respect, 10Sguy has a much better understanding of what is happening than you do. His predictions are too accurate to be random guesses.

That said, he was just extrapolating data that someone posted from one league in the country and speculating that could be an avg. While not perfect, it could have greater relevance than just pulling numbers out of the air. If I recall correctly, viz is from one of the larger leagues in the country. That is quite different than taking data from a league with a couple of hundred players.

One thing that he said that is undeniable: "We'll all know (something) within 10 days or so!"

JavierLW
11-21-2009, 05:18 PM
Javier,

With due respect, 10Sguy has a much better understanding of what is happening than you do. His predictions are too accurate to be random guesses.

That said, he was just extrapolating data that someone posted from one league in the country and speculating that could be an avg. While not perfect, it could have greater relevance than just pulling numbers out of the air. If I recall correctly, viz is from one of the larger leagues in the country. That is quite different than taking data from a league with a couple of hundred players.

One thing that he said that is undeniable: "We'll all know (something) within 10 days or so!"

Ah, that's right, you're the guy that thinks 0,0 scores get "thrown out", even though there is no published data about that, just people "who heard" it from other people.

(I know for a fact that they do not get "thrown out" because I had a season with only two matches once and one was 0,0 and i was rated UP from it, the other match wasnt anything to write home about in that regard.....)

Ah I see, now if we make "accurate" predictions, then somehow that means everything we say is true? That's crazy....

True wisdom comes from knowing that you know nothing!

Topaz
11-21-2009, 05:25 PM
Hey, are the ratings out yet?

:)

Islandtennis
11-21-2009, 07:15 PM
Ah, that's right, you're the guy that thinks 0,0 scores get "thrown out", even though there is no published data about that, just people "who heard" it from other people.

(I know for a fact that they do not get "thrown out" because I had a season with only two matches once and one was 0,0 and i was rated UP from it, the other match wasnt anything to write home about in that regard.....)

Ah I see, now if we make "accurate" predictions, then somehow that means everything we say is true? That's crazy....

True wisdom comes from knowing that you know nothing!


In the past 0,0 scores did not count. Now they do not count for your dynamic rating, but they do get factored in at the end of the year for year end ratings. I don't make predictions. Sometimes I do try to clear up misinformation. I was just saying that 10Sguy seems to have a greater knowledge than you do of how the USTA works. Reading some of your speculation can be comical though. I wasn't going to say anything, but you are unbelievable. Some of your recent interesting quotes:

"I could see them doing something like this just for certain sections to attempt to balance things out, but not necessarily everywhere."



"The fact that it's not on www.usta.com (http://www.usta.com/) as a new rule means it's not a new rule, that's a FACT.

I believe it may of been on there, but maybe it was taken away.

It's likely Norcal just likes the idea so they are keeping it in since ultimately the section gets to decide whether to accept an appeal or not, and I believe they are not using tennislink directly so perhaps they can better accommodate something like that. (I heard once that they charge you money if you appeal your rating as well, where other sections practically hold your hand to get everyone to auto-appeal)"

I was just going to laugh to myself about your understanding; but when you started attacking 10Sguy for no reason, I decided to comment. 10sguy did not speculate on what seemed right or should happen, he relayed some information that came from a reliable source. Speak to your District coordinator about how 0,0 scores are handled, and also ask them what about the six match appeal rule that you commented on above. When you find that out, let us know what they say. Also ask them if every "rule" and procedure the USTA follows is listed for your access on usta.com.

This may be hard for you to believe, but there are some people on this board who have access to information that you do not. Hopefully you do have "true wisdom."

10sguy
11-21-2009, 09:11 PM
It's kind of like the Art Bell show (or "Coast to Coast").

They hear some supposed "facts" from a unreliable sources, and then they build on it, adding more speculation which is also unreliable (it is speculation after all) formulating an entire theory.

Then even after the ratings come out we'll have to deal with people who act like "that's how it works" because they dont know the difference between "assumption" and actual facts.

BTW, DO YOU KNOW IF THE RATINGS ARE OUT YET????

Facts are reliable - from SLC (Section Leagues Coordinator) - and so, I believe are a few of the others we've seen in this thread.

Ratings not "out" yet, at least not to the public in my section. Based upon usual timing/schedules, I'd guess the Sections have 'em now and are in their reviewing mode (as mentioned earlier).

10sguy
11-21-2009, 09:16 PM
In the past 0,0 scores did not count. Now they do not count for your dynamic rating, but they do get factored in at the end of the year for year end ratings. I don't make predictions. Sometimes I do try to clear up misinformation. I was just saying that 10Sguy seems to have a greater knowledge than you do of how the USTA works. Reading some of your speculation can be comical though. I wasn't going to say anything, but you are unbelievable. Some of your recent interesting quotes:

"I could see them doing something like this just for certain sections to attempt to balance things out, but not necessarily everywhere."



"The fact that it's not on www.usta.com (http://www.usta.com/) as a new rule means it's not a new rule, that's a FACT.

I believe it may of been on there, but maybe it was taken away.

It's likely Norcal just likes the idea so they are keeping it in since ultimately the section gets to decide whether to accept an appeal or not, and I believe they are not using tennislink directly so perhaps they can better accommodate something like that. (I heard once that they charge you money if you appeal your rating as well, where other sections practically hold your hand to get everyone to auto-appeal)"

I was just going to laugh to myself about your understanding; but when you started attacking 10Sguy for no reason, I decided to comment. 10sguy did not speculate on what seemed right or should happen, he relayed some information that came from a reliable source. Speak to your District coordinator about how 0,0 scores are handled, and also ask them what about the six match appeal rule that you commented on above. When you find that out, let us know what they say. Also ask them if every "rule" and procedure the USTA follows is listed for your access on usta.com.

This may be hard for you to believe, but there are some people on this board who have access to information that you do not. Hopefully you do have "true wisdom."

Hey "Island Tennis," (j/k with the "I have a fan," but thanks for your support)!

kylebarendrick
11-21-2009, 09:26 PM
FWIW my understanding is that 6-0, 6-0 scores aren't thrown out. However, if opponents have ratings far enough apart that the predicted score would be 6-0, 6-0 then that match is thrown out. This would be because if the better player loses even a single game their rating would actually be reduced.

Also, although Norcal uses our own web interface, all of our scores (for national leagues) are in the national USTA database.

herrburgess
11-22-2009, 04:34 AM
It's nothing like that.

Nobody says "I just talked to someone and they told me that LSU is going to beat Auburn 39-15 this week".

If I'm not mistaken, there are multibillion dollar industries built around the fact that people DO do this all the time. Isn't this what is done on all the daily/weekly/yearly (including pre-season) sports shows and in the newspapers, not to mention among the betting crowd in Vegas? Apparently people enjoy speculating on sports. Why are you so combative?

snowpuppy
11-22-2009, 05:16 AM
Yup, i think this is true. Two guys in my 6.0 Mixed got bumped to 3.5 right before the season started. Nice job USTA....

Islandtennis
11-22-2009, 06:21 AM
Hey "Island Tennis," (j/k with the "I have a fan," but thanks for your support)!


I didn't want to get into it between the two of you, but it was obvious your information was coming from a reliable source and then you were doing some fun extrapolation of what it would be like if National followed the same percentage at Viz's section. We had our disagreement of the 5 vs. 6, but other than that your info has seemed to be spot on including the timing on when you started the post.

Not that you needed me to defend you, but I do think that it is important that the board discern solid information from simple beliefs. Especially when those beliefs are stated as "FACT" from someone expressing their gut feeling.

catfish
11-22-2009, 07:36 AM
I didn't think Javier was attacking 10sguy. I thought he was making a general statement about people speculating and presenting their speculations as facts. It happens all the time in the USTA league tennis community. I was a local coordinator for quite some time, and I used to get really irritated by captains and players not looking at facts, but instead they'd go by "what John Doe told them". 10sguy seems to know what he's talking about, and he may be a Sectional Coordinator or some other person who is involved in ratings. So I believe what he is saying. And I have heard my sectional coordinator talk about tweaks to the NTRP rating calculations each year. The system evolves and improves all the time.

JavierLW
11-22-2009, 09:17 AM
If I'm not mistaken, there are multibillion dollar industries built around the fact that people DO do this all the time. Isn't this what is done on all the daily/weekly/yearly (including pre-season) sports shows and in the newspapers, not to mention among the betting crowd in Vegas? Apparently people enjoy speculating on sports. Why are you so combative?

Because you're making arguments that are not very well thought out.

Making football picks is not the same thing as stating that something is fact. Everyone who makes football picks for a living understands that it's really just a estimation of what happens, it's not like fortune telling or anything...

JavierLW
11-22-2009, 09:19 AM
Not that you needed me to defend you, but I do think that it is important that the board discern solid information from simple beliefs. Especially when those beliefs are stated as "FACT" from someone expressing their gut feeling.

I would agree with this statement.

However since you cant even mention who you supposably received this information from, and you're basing you whole acknowledgement of 10sguy on the basis of "I believe he's talked to someone who knows what they are talking about", then you obviously cant say that you know the difference between FACT and someone just expressing their gut feeling either.

As far as his "predictions" he hasnt said anything that someone who was reading the rule changes on usta.com (2010 rule changes have been on there for months now) wouldnt of already known, it's just that everyone doesnt happen to browse the site so they depend on meetings for that.

The only one that may seem like new news is the new rule that you will not get an appeal granted if you played 6 or more matches. That was out there a few months ago (at least in the appeal section), but they apparently decided not to publish it so they are not mentioning it. (it's part of the formula on whether you'll win your appeal or not so they need not publish it)

They also took out the part where they explain how you will win if it's within .05, so it's probably just an attempt to hide more info from us. (which could help keep people from trying to doctor the system)

herrburgess
11-22-2009, 09:24 AM
Because you're making arguments that are not very well thought out.

Making football picks is not the same thing as stating that something is fact. Everyone who makes football picks for a living understands that it's really just a estimation of what happens, it's not like fortune telling or anything...


here's what the OP said: "there is an expectation of an overall "bump up" of most player's NRTP's in an attempt to more closely match player ratings to NTRP descriptions."

he said "expectation" not "fact."

Lighten up.

JavierLW
11-22-2009, 09:34 AM
here's what the OP said: "there is an expectation of an overall "bump up" of most player's NRTP's in an attempt to more closely match player ratings to NTRP descriptions."

he said "expectation" not "fact."

Lighten up.

Yes, that's the funny thing about it, he even admits himself that it's a guess or an expectation. (yet he's warning us all about it, "word to the wise")

But some of you have to feel you're going to come in to say somehow he knows what he's talking about.

It's not like a sports prediction at all.

You need to lighten up.

sunshinez
11-22-2009, 11:33 AM
What are your thoughts of raising many players ratings. With 1 match to go in a mixed double season, 4 out of 5 men are going to get bumped up on our team. Do you think that USTA should have made it known that it was their plan to re-align the ratings levels as some were bumped down in early ratings?:

Islandtennis
11-22-2009, 11:51 AM
Javier,

Let us know what you find out from you District coordinator. If you do not bother to contact them, you will see what 10sguy has been telling you is accurate within a few months. That is with the possible extrapolation of one league's numbers to the whole nation's, and he didn't imply that would be accurate or that he had inside information that it was.

No need to pollute this thread any further.

Have a good tennis season.

fe6250
11-22-2009, 11:58 AM
What are your thoughts of raising many players ratings. With 1 match to go in a mixed double season, 4 out of 5 men are going to get bumped up on our team. Do you think that USTA should have made it known that it was their plan to re-align the ratings levels as some were bumped down in early ratings?:

Remember that year-end ratings bumps don't go into effect until January even though they are published now. It shouldn't impact current league play in most cases.

amarone
11-22-2009, 07:11 PM
In the past 0,0 scores did not count. Now they do not count for your dynamic rating, but they do get factored in at the end of the year for year end ratings. This is my understanding also.

amarone
11-22-2009, 07:15 PM
Remember that year-end ratings bumps don't go into effect until January even though they are published now. It shouldn't impact current league play in most cases. If there is a general move up in the year-end ratings, it gives a significant advantage to teams playing in Early Start Leagues. These teams were able to put a roster together using pre-bump-up players, and will be allowed to keep those players (other than dynamic DQs, which don't affect most players) through Championship play.

sunshinez
11-23-2009, 08:18 AM
early start ratings are only good in our section until 10 days after the year end ratings come out. At that point you must use the year end ratings. This is a change from last year.

fe6250
11-29-2009, 04:57 AM
I just heard that our local board had a meeting two nights ago and that it was announced that 35% of 3.5 men will be bumped and 15% of 4.0 men.

This looks to be spot on.

http://www.usta.com/USTA/Global/Active/Custom%20Pages/Leagues/Year_End_Ratings.aspx

J011yroger
11-29-2009, 05:03 AM
Who is the guy who got bumped out of 5.5?

lol

J

amarone
11-29-2009, 05:12 AM
Who is the guy who got bumped out of 5.5?

lol

J I expect he posts here. If there are only 143 5.5s in the country, they must all be on these boards.

amarone
11-29-2009, 05:15 AM
Here is what it means for the distribution of players across the levels:

Previous New
2.5 19,352 6.2% 12,193 3.9%
3.0 82,803 26.6% 56,262 18.1%
3.5 121,270 38.9% 119,856 38.5%
4.0 66,717 21.4% 91,596 29.4%
4.5 18,605 6.0% 27,942 9.0%
5.0 2,698 0.9% 3,546 1.1%
5.5 143 0.05% 192 0.06%
Total 311,588 311,587

So the number of 3.5s stay the same but 3.0 decreases significantly and 4.0 increases significantly, in numeric terms. There are 50% more 4.5s than previously.

J011yroger
11-29-2009, 05:31 AM
I expect he posts here. If there are only 143 5.5s in the country, they must all be on these boards.

lol

J

fe6250
11-29-2009, 09:47 AM
lol

J

How do we know it's a "he"? ;-)

amarone
11-29-2009, 09:59 AM
How do we know it's a "he"? ;-)
Good point.

D. Net Tricks
11-29-2009, 12:24 PM
Looks like they're starting with the seniors again...but End of Year's are definitely updating as I send this.

J011yroger
11-29-2009, 06:17 PM
How do we know it's a "he"? ;-)

Hmmmm...I didn't at all consider that the ratings were combined. Gross oversight on my part.

I wonder if the split was even, or if a higher percentage of men or women were bumped and the other left alone.

J

JoelDali
11-29-2009, 06:36 PM
I expect he posts here. If there are only 143 5.5s in the country, they must all be on these boards.

Effen sandbaggas.

Blask
11-29-2009, 07:01 PM
holy crap, my whole team got moved. Some deserved, many are not. They appear to weigh heavily on doubles results as well.

kylebarendrick
11-29-2009, 10:07 PM
Back to the original post, it looks like 10sguy was right about people moving up.

OrangePower
11-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Back to the original post, it looks like 10sguy was right about people moving up.

Definitely right. About 1/3 of Norcal 4.0s seem to have gotten bumped up (at least within my circle). Crazy.

Matt H.
11-30-2009, 09:52 AM
My home park has two 4.0 teams and combined we had about a dozen that got bumped to 4.5

I was told 11 of the people on the 3.5 team got bumped to 4.0. Talk about getting your team wiped out mid-season.

CrocodileRock
11-30-2009, 10:20 AM
10 out of 13 on our 4.0 team got bumped, and 12 out of 15 of our 3.5s did. League's gonna be a lot different next year.

session404
11-30-2009, 10:24 AM
I got bumped up to 3.0 which I was expecting, as well as most of my teammates.

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 10:49 AM
As seen on http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.asp

USTA League 2009 Year End Ratings
Notice of Important Changes


The year end 2009 NTRP ratings will reflect a nationwide movement in which a higher percentage of players will move upward this year. This reflects the concerns of the National Oversight Group, the Observers (Verifiers), charged with protecting the integrity of our NTRP levels as defined below. It was also the clear consensus of many others including staff, volunteers, team captains and players that the system is in need of adjustment as too many players were above the NTRP level they were playing at. Additionally, the same issue was noted through player concerns raised in survey work. A growing disconnect was seen between the standards used in the Self Rating guidelines and the actual characteristics of players on court at various levels, along with players who had been allowed for many years to appeal their year end ratings downward.

Of the 300,000+ league players nationally, more than 90,000 will be seeing movement in their NTRP rating that should coincide with their appropriate skills. With almost a third of the players seeing movement, please know that if you are in this group, you will not be alone. We recognize that there may be initial concerns and questions, but we believe rating adjustments are necessary to protect the integrity of the NTRP and insure that the vast majority of all league players will have competitive matches.

USTA League 2009 Year End Ratings have been published to TennisLink. Click here to find your rating. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact leagues@usta.com.

The table below shows the movement of players up and down from their previous rating levels. Players will continue to have compatible and competitive matches, although many will now be playing at a different level.

Players will also find that there will be far less ability to appeal NTRP ratings successfully based on current appeal guidelines.

This table shows a broad overview of the movement of players at 2009 year end.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2znv0cg.jpg