PDA

View Full Version : how long can roger defer his compulsory military service?


pushing_wins
11-12-2009, 12:05 AM
or has he served already?

dropshot winner
11-12-2009, 12:17 AM
or has he served already?

You don't need to serve in the swiss military, if you're willing to pay up to 3% of your yearly income.
I'm sure that Federer was able to get a nice deal to avoid military service, he's way more useful to Switzerland as a tennis player.

prattle128
11-12-2009, 12:22 AM
lol............

Gorecki
11-12-2009, 12:49 AM
not long ago my country had compulsory MS too, but you could skip it easily, by being a professional sports player or being a university student (and a few other exception)... so my guess is that it was no big deal for him to dodge the CMS by filing some sort of request to swiss army services...

Bud
11-12-2009, 12:56 AM
IMO, the US should require compulsory military service as well.

lawrence
11-12-2009, 01:38 AM
Imagine the government getting 3% of Federer's yearly income :p

OTMPut
11-12-2009, 01:54 AM
IMO, the US should require compulsory military service as well.

No need actually. In a short while that would be the primary source of jobs for youths.

Bud
11-12-2009, 02:22 AM
No need actually. In a short while that would be the primary source of jobs for youths.

Your comment makes no sense.

KenC
11-12-2009, 02:29 AM
Your comment makes no sense.

Unfortunately for the US and the rest of the world his comment does make sense.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 04:02 AM
You don't need to serve in the swiss military, if you're willing to pay up to 3% of your yearly income.
I'm sure that Federer was able to get a nice deal to avoid military service, he's way more useful to Switzerland as a tennis player.
Agree with this.
And if he pays 3 % of his yearly income to the Swiss Military id say HE is their biggest milk-cow

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 04:03 AM
Your comment makes no sense.
Let me explain it to you, in Europe (except for some countries) the people doesnt give a **** when Uncle Sam calls! We have better things to do.

OTMPut
11-12-2009, 04:12 AM
Your comment makes no sense.

Dude the unemployment rate in US is nearly 17%. Wake up!

dropshot winner
11-12-2009, 04:14 AM
Dude the unemployment rate in US is nearly 17%. Wake up!

17%? :shock:

Damn...

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 04:18 AM
17%? :shock:

Damn...

Really??? :shock::shock:
No...that would make it around 45-50 million people...cant be right?

boris becker 1
11-12-2009, 08:33 AM
10.2 % not 17

Cup8489
11-12-2009, 08:37 AM
No worries. We'll just invade Mexico to boost our economy. It always works [/sarcasm]

mandy01
11-12-2009, 08:39 AM
Dude the unemployment rate in US is nearly 17%. Wake up!Thats a shame seeing the standard of living there..

mandy01
11-12-2009, 08:40 AM
delete post..

drakulie
11-12-2009, 08:40 AM
how arrogant of him.

edmondsm
11-12-2009, 09:10 AM
Let me explain it to you, in Europe (except for some countries) the people doesnt give a **** when Uncle Sam calls! We have better things to do.

I have literally no idea what you mean.

But I do know that our country needs to get a clue and start slashing its military budget.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 09:11 AM
I have literally no idea what you mean.

But I do know that our country needs to get a clue and start slashing its military budget.

Thats basically what I meant, you had an idea after all!

Cup8489
11-12-2009, 09:12 AM
I have literally no idea what you mean.

But I do know that our country needs to get a clue and start slashing its military budget.

no, not slashing, but streamlining. Im sure that every carrier and sub out there is not entirely necessary, and they are expensive to maintain (especially carriers. i would be intrigued to find out how much it costs to operate one, with ammunition, food, thousands of sailors, etc etc)

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 11:21 AM
Let me explain it to you, in Europe (except for some countries) the people doesnt give a **** when Uncle Sam calls! We have better things to do.

While i dislike some of the right wing foreign policy decisions made by the us, if it wasnt for the yanks, there is a fair chance that your country would be speaking russian at some stage during the past 50 years.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 11:24 AM
While i dislike some of the right wing foreign policy decisions made by the us, if it wasnt for the yanks, there is a fair chance that your country would be speaking russian at some stage during the past 50 years.

Not very likely, so the Americans are heroes?

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 11:28 AM
Not very likely, so the Americans are heroes?

Actually its quite likely. If it wasnt for NATO Ie the united states, the USSR would have swallowed up western europe. Im not saying they are hero's, i am saying that europe has lived under americas shield for the past 50 or so years.
I have as many gripes as the next european about the united states but its merely stating a fact

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Actually its quite likely. If it wasnt for NATO Ie the united states, the USSR would have swallowed up western europe. Im not saying they are hero's, i am saying that europe has lived under americas shield for the past 50 or so years.
Thats not saying they are heros, its merely stating a fact

USA DEFINETELY needs Western Europe, and vice versa.

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 11:49 AM
Back on topic, why is there a swiss army? Is there also an equadorian alpine division?

namelessone
11-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Actually its quite likely. If it wasnt for NATO Ie the united states, the USSR would have swallowed up western europe. Im not saying they are hero's, i am saying that europe has lived under americas shield for the past 50 or so years.
I have as many gripes as the next european about the united states but its merely stating a fact

And how exactly would have the soviets conquered all of western europe? They relied on their winter to beat the much better german army and only did so because the germans opened up too many fronts. The russians have the numbers but they lack the firepower and resources to keep western europe in their hands for too long,even without american intervention in Europe. And I am talking just about the context after WWII. The ****es,who had a much better army,couldn't take england and they had problems in scandinavia. And if they would have succesfully expanded eastwards you bet that trouble would have arrisen back in the west and I doubt the ****es would have kept the whole area at bay. Napoleon and other conquerors couldn't keep the west of europe for a long time because,as much as they bicker,these westerners get their crap together once the **** hits the fan.See how they all banded against Napoleon when he ruled Europe. The resistance in the countries controlled by ****es were backed up by the americans just like the americans were backed up by the french when they had their war against the british.

The West stays together in times of turmoil.

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 12:19 PM
And how exactly would have the soviets conquered all of western europe? They relied on their winter to beat the much better german army and only did so because the germans opened up too many fronts. The russians have the numbers but they lack the firepower and resources to keep western europe in their hands for too long,even without american intervention in Europe. And I am talking just about the context after WWII. The ****es,who had a much better army,couldn't take england and they had problems in scandinavia. And if they would have succesfully expanded eastwards you bet that trouble would have arrisen back in the west and I doubt the ****es would have kept the whole area at bay. Napoleon and other conquerors couldn't keep the west of europe for a long time because,as much as they bicker,these westerners get their crap together once the **** hits the fan.See how they all banded against Napoleon when he ruled Europe. The resistance in the countries controlled by ****es were backed up by the americans just like the americans were backed up by the french when they had their war against the british.

The West stays together in times of turmoil.

With all due respect i dont think any single european country has had an infantry that could compare to the germans in ww2. And the reason the germans couldnt take britain was due to it being an island and germany having an inferior navy. How can the ussr have sufficient numbers but not sufficient firepower!? Its the joint top military power since ww2.
I dont think the usa would have invested so heavily in europes defense if they didnt think the soviets capable of expanding throughout the continent

MAX PLY
11-12-2009, 02:27 PM
Back on topic, why is there a swiss army? Is there also an equadorian alpine division?

Are you trying to ruin the knife business??

malakas
11-12-2009, 02:35 PM
Let me explain it to you, in Europe (except for some countries) the people doesnt give a **** when Uncle Sam calls! We have better things to do.

if by except for some countries,you mean every country apart from Scadinavia then you're right.
And patriotism flares when the economical situation is not good,when there is media manipulation when the sociopolitical conditions become fertile soil for it.Noone is immune to it.

malakas
11-12-2009, 02:38 PM
While i dislike some of the right wing foreign policy decisions made by the us, if it wasnt for the yanks, there is a fair chance that your country would be speaking russian at some stage during the past 50 years.

I don't understand the point of your comment.:confused: If it wasn't for europeans USA wouldn't be in the first place if I'm not mistaken..no?:rolleyes:

Besides Finland DID stop Russia by itself alone,with no substantial help from the yanks or from whoever else apart from their only good friends the Swedes and the Danes,in the Winter War.So before you make such statement better check some facts first.

ninman
11-12-2009, 03:12 PM
And how exactly would have the soviets conquered all of western europe? They relied on their winter to beat the much better german army and only did so because the germans opened up too many fronts. The russians have the numbers but they lack the firepower and resources to keep western europe in their hands for too long,even without american intervention in Europe. And I am talking just about the context after WWII. The ****es,who had a much better army,couldn't take england and they had problems in scandinavia. And if they would have succesfully expanded eastwards you bet that trouble would have arrisen back in the west and I doubt the ****es would have kept the whole area at bay. Napoleon and other conquerors couldn't keep the west of europe for a long time because,as much as they bicker,these westerners get their crap together once the **** hits the fan.See how they all banded against Napoleon when he ruled Europe. The resistance in the countries controlled by ****es were backed up by the americans just like the americans were backed up by the french when they had their war against the british.

The West stays together in times of turmoil.

Why would they want to stop at England, don't they like Wales, Scotland and Ireland too? I'm pretty sure the other three countries in the UK would be much easier targets. Do you have any idea how insulting it is for you to refer to Britain as England in the context of WW2, my grandfather fought for 6 long years in WW2 as a proud SCOTTISH soldier in the BRITISH army, you are basically saying that he did nothing, it was all England, well sorry but ENGLAND cannot fight a war because ENGLAND has no army, just like Scotland Wales and NI. Yes there are English divisions, but they are all in the BRITISH army.

Ledigs
11-12-2009, 03:15 PM
17%? :shock:

Damn...

No it's 10% but "underemployment" is 17%

Ledigs
11-12-2009, 03:16 PM
While i dislike some of the right wing foreign policy decisions made by the us, if it wasnt for the yanks, there is a fair chance that your country would be speaking russian at some stage during the past 50 years.

Or German (last 80)

Ledigs
11-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Newsflash. I'm a left winger, but the military here in the US creates tons of jobs and economic benefits. Then again it's totally corrupt. What's the solution?

psYcon
11-12-2009, 03:20 PM
10.2 % not 17

that's the official figure but unofficial is higher.

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 03:20 PM
Or German (last 80)

Many would argue that the russians played a large part along with USA in defeating the germans. Britain and other countries played as large a part as possible too.
Plus, the USA hesitated to get involved until pearl harbour.

malakas
11-12-2009, 03:22 PM
Why would they want to stop at England, don't they like Wales, Scotland and Ireland too? I'm pretty sure the other three countries in the UK would be much easier targets. Do you have any idea how insulting it is for you to refer to Britain as England in the context of WW2, my grandfather fought for 6 long years in WW2 as a proud SCOTTISH soldier in the BRITISH army, you are basically saying that he did nothing, it was all England, well sorry but ENGLAND cannot fight a war because ENGLAND has no army, just like Scotland Wales and NI. Yes there are English divisions, but they are all in the BRITISH army.

I think you need to take a chill pill.:)

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 03:37 PM
I don't understand the point of your comment.:confused: If it wasn't for europeans USA wouldn't be in the first place if I'm not mistaken..no?:rolleyes:

Besides Finland DID stop Russia by itself alone,with no substantial help from the yanks or from whoever else apart from their only good friends the Swedes and the Danes,in the Winter War.So before you make such statement better check some facts first.

No you are not mistaken although thats not relevant to the point i made.

Finlands stance and victory was highly impressive but The cold war USSR was a different proposition to the Russian army that Finland faught against where Russia probably allocated a minute percentage of its military resources.

The biggest Army & Nuclear power would have breezed through europe imo.

malakas
11-12-2009, 03:46 PM
No you are not mistaken although thats not relevant to the point i made.

Finlands stance and victory was highly impressive but The cold war USSR was a different proposition to the Russian army that Finland faught against where Russia probably allocated a minute percentage of its military resources.

The biggest Army & Nuclear power would have breezed through europe imo.

yes perhaps,I believe it could have at least in part of europe.Definitely Finland.

But again,I don't understand the point of this discussion right now.Because if we make hypothetic scenarios like - if we the yanks wouldn't have helped you... - by the same way we could say that if it wasn't for the europeans these yanks wouldn't exist alltogether.That's why such discussions are completely useless.And the europeans I assure you,owe no gratitude to the yanks because in the world politics it all happens for the money and the power and the yanks didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart but for their own motives.

~ZoSo~
11-12-2009, 03:53 PM
yes perhaps,I believe it could have at least in part of europe.Definitely Finland.

But again,I don't understand the point of this discussion right now.Because if we make hypothetic scenarios like - if we the yanks wouldn't have helped you... - by the same way we could say that if it wasn't for the europeans these yanks wouldn't exist alltogether.That's why such discussions are completely useless.And the europeans I assure you,owe no gratitude to the yanks because in the world politics it all happens for the money and the power and the yanks didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart but for their own motives.

Im just saying that most of Europe benefitted from Nato which was mostly American firepower. Its a fact. And i am by no means a supporter of everything the US does.

malakas
11-12-2009, 03:57 PM
Im just saying that most of Europe benefitted from Nato which was mostly American firepower. Its a fact. And i am by no means a supporter of everything the US does.

oh yes.But this relationship was mutual since USA benefited the same if not more from such a relationship.
Anyway I critisize as much the americocentric comments that believe that the world owe them gratitude for breathing as much as I critisize the eurocentric ones who believe they're more educated or superior than the yanks.We're all the same and things change.Someday usa won't be the biggest superpower of the world and anyone who knows a little bit of history can see some patterns and repetitions.:)

Chadwixx
11-12-2009, 04:06 PM
Dude the unemployment rate in US is nearly 17%. Wake up!

You guys asked for change, and you got it.

Bhagi Katbamna
11-12-2009, 05:06 PM
Man, some of the european posters are woefully ignorant of history. One of the reasons that Sweden and many other western EU countries were able to try their ill-advised socialist utopian schemes was that Uncle Sam was protecting them from the threat of the USSR and they didn't have to spend a lot of money on defence. In the US, we spend way more on social programs(i.e. welfare) than we do on the military.
Back on topic, I'm sure they have an exemption for Federer.

kOaMaster
11-12-2009, 05:17 PM
btw, to give a clear answer to the topic:
federer is ineligible.

there are four possibilities for young swiss men:
1. do the regular military service (about 50% do that)
2. do civil service (about 10%). beginning with this year it is free to choose. before you had to be accepted and have some conversations about you not being able to do the military service for what reason there ever was. the only "problem": it's 50% longer, so ~400 days, not 260.
3. do civil protection/defense service (maximum 10%). you only get there if you have an injury, a sickness or something that makes you ineligible for military service but not civil protection service. it's less demanding and less days
4. completely ineligible (>30%)
you do not make any service, but pay at least an amount of about 250$/year or 3% of your income before taxes until the age of 30.

there is a special military service for sportives like skiers, footballers etc. and federer was supposed to go there. later when he became really good they suspended him from the service. was probably a good idea ;)

(for myself, I did the normal military service and I would not recommend it at all. rather go for the civil service or better pay than wasting a year of your live)

pound cat
11-12-2009, 05:37 PM
No worries. We'll just invade Mexico to boost our economy. It always works [/sarcasm]

Just keep out of Canada, our economy is doing great. If you do we'll cut off the oil lines to the US.

"Two-way trade between Canada and the United States has more than doubled in value since the signing of the NAFTA in 1994. They are each other's largest trading partner, with $ 1.2 bn in trade now crossing the Canada-US border every single day.

***An important part of the bilateral trade is energy. Canada is the largest supplier of oil, natural gas and electricity to the United States.***** "


Source: US Newswire

Surprising isn't it. I bet most people in the world would have said Saudi Arabia.

pushing_wins
11-12-2009, 06:29 PM
btw, to give a clear answer to the topic:
federer is ineligible.

there are four possibilities for young swiss men:
1. do the regular military service (about 50% do that)
2. do civil service (about 10%). beginning with this year it is free to choose. before you had to be accepted and have some conversations about you not being able to do the military service for what reason there ever was. the only "problem": it's 50% longer, so ~400 days, not 260.
3. do civil protection/defense service (maximum 10%). you only get there if you have an injury, a sickness or something that makes you ineligible for military service but not civil protection service. it's less demanding and less days
4. completely ineligible (>30%)
you do not make any service, but pay at least an amount of about 250$/year or 3% of your income before taxes until the age of 30.

there is a special military service for sportives like skiers, footballers etc. and federer was supposed to go there. later when he became really good they suspended him from the service. was probably a good idea ;)

(for myself, I did the normal military service and I would not recommend it at all. rather go for the civil service or better pay than wasting a year of your live)

how do option 1 people feel about those who chose option 2?

Mun
11-12-2009, 06:32 PM
No military service and no Davis Cup. It explains why Federer is so unpopular in Switzerland.

OTMPut
11-12-2009, 07:42 PM
Man, some of the european posters are woefully ignorant of history. One of the reasons that Sweden and many other western EU countries were able to try their ill-advised socialist utopian schemes was that Uncle Sam was protecting them from the threat of the USSR and they didn't have to spend a lot of money on defence. In the US, we spend way more on social programs(i.e. welfare) than we do on the military.
Back on topic, I'm sure they have an exemption for Federer.

Actually if you think about it, US kept the soviet threat alive and hyped up during the cold war era. US was equally responsible (may be more)for the arms race. Even now with Russia a shadow of the past, US pulled out on ABM treaty and is very keen on building missile defense.

We cannot simply remove US from the landscape and assume the other parts remain the same and specualte what would have happened.

OTMPut
11-12-2009, 07:43 PM
No military service and no Davis Cup. It explains why Federer is so unpopular in Switzerland.

Pretty sure you are gj011. : )

OTMPut
11-12-2009, 07:46 PM
You guys asked for change, and you got it.

would have been 20%+ if that cow boy continued on the job. do you have any convincing arguments against this?

crazylevity
11-12-2009, 09:10 PM
People, as it is we can't agree on things related to tennis.

Now we want to discuss politics and history? :p

inthemisosoup
11-12-2009, 09:42 PM
^EXACTLY!!!!

look all of our countries have done some things that we are not proud of throughout history. there is no superior country to another, we know that. sometimes the politicians and policy makers act differently but i am assuming we are not them . . . please, we are not our countries, we are not our governments. we are people, normal citizens. so for christ's sake, the argument of "your country . . . " "your politicans . . . " is not only childish & xenophobic, it's completely irrelevant to why we are here. we post bc we like tennis and tennis obviously knows no borders. :) thanks for listening to my melodrama.

MuseFan
11-12-2009, 09:49 PM
Actually the real unemployment rate in US is 17%... We are on the verge of societal collapse.

MuseFan
11-12-2009, 09:49 PM
would have been 20%+ if that cow boy continued on the job. do you have any convincing arguments against this?

Any evidence for that bucko? Or just more speculative garbage? :):):):)

Netspirit
11-12-2009, 10:12 PM
Actually the real unemployment rate in US is 17%... We are on the verge of societal collapse.

This is the speculative garbage at its finest. The unemployment is barely above 10%.

All those "unofficial numbers" are *always* higher no matter what - otherwise nobody would mention them and the conspiracy freaks that make them up would get no publicity whatsoever.

Unemployment is the most lagging indicator of a recession. The most forward-looking indicator is the stock market - here's your clue. There is a concensus that technically the recession ended this summer, this may be confirmed after the Q4 GDP results are published early next year.

namelessone
11-12-2009, 10:45 PM
Man, some of the european posters are woefully ignorant of history. One of the reasons that Sweden and many other western EU countries were able to try their ill-advised socialist utopian schemes was that Uncle Sam was protecting them from the threat of the USSR and they didn't have to spend a lot of money on defence. In the US, we spend way more on social programs(i.e. welfare) than we do on the military.
Back on topic, I'm sure they have an exemption for Federer.

Speculating on what MIGHT have happened is just as ignorant IMO. Like I said before Western Europe is sandwiched between american interests and eastern threats if you will. Anybody who knows their history knows how hard it is to take all of western Europe and KEEP it. By the end of WWII,the russian army was in tatters and it wasn't greatly supplied,they defeated the germans by the "wait for the winter" tactic and by the fact that their numerical advantage(in men,tanks and so on),even though their tech wasn't as good as the germans or americans. Western Europe may be historically divided but when the **** hits the fan they band together against a common enemy and this happened before US was even involved in foreign affairs. See Napoleon's case and how they all formed a coalition to bring him down.

I don't know where you get this image of la-la land in WE. So according to you the blissful europeans tried out their "utopian socialist ideals" while the good guys a.k.a america protected them against the baddies in the east. Thank you America!!! Look,europeans are not a united bunch not matter how much we get the EU shoved down are throats. We have waged war A LOT,especially among each other,there are "rivalries" between some countries still,but as I said before,Western Europeans do stick together when the **** hits the fan. Sure,they reacted slowly to hitler but hitler was from a WE country,it's not like he came from the east conquering all. He did an inside job if you will,benefiting from the fact that most of Europe didn't want war coming fresh off WWI and he pushed the envelope as much as he could before finally starting the war officially in 1939.

As OTMPut said,the americans hyped up the russian threat just to keep the arms race going. The americans were doing what every young and economically booming nation did at one point in their history: arm up. And you can't arm up if you don't have a perceived enemy,in this case the russians. Nowadays it's terrorists in Afghanistan and Irak. Tomorrow it will be Iran. Then probably Pakistan. The US is using WE(with american bases scattered throughout Europe) as a buffer towards eastern threats while weaking certain eastern and middle-eastern countries,protecting israel,extending their influence,gathering some resources and playing the good guys role throughout. See Caesar's push into Gaul to see the "good guy while attacking" role played to perfection.

Those who read a bit of history see the pattern.

OTMPut
11-13-2009, 01:40 AM
This is the speculative garbage at its finest. The unemployment is barely above 10%.

All those "unofficial numbers" are *always* higher no matter what - otherwise nobody would mention them and the conspiracy freaks that make them up would get no publicity whatsoever.

Unemployment is the most lagging indicator of a recession. The most forward-looking indicator is the stock market - here's your clue. There is a concensus that technically the recession ended this summer, this may be confirmed after the Q4 GDP results are published early next year.

Dude do you have any idea how these < 10% official numbers are calculated?
They leave out people who stopped looking for work (because they are effin tired of looking for it; because they are not getting what they should be getting). They leave out people who work less hourse than what they actually want to do. You do not have to go to conspiracy websites Some fed economists have claimed this number.

GDP is a bad indicator to describe the state of the economy. And stock market can say anything (are oyu looking at S&P500?) at anytime. It of course went up when sh*t was piling up during Greenspan time.

dropshot winner
11-13-2009, 01:47 AM
Newsflash. I'm a left winger, but the military here in the US creates tons of jobs and economic benefits. Then again it's totally corrupt. What's the solution?

It's complicated, but one thing's for sure, fighting pointless wars to subsidize the people in the military industry (incl. lobbyists) with tax money and foreign credits can't be the solution.

Baikalic
11-13-2009, 02:00 AM
Actually the real unemployment rate in US is 17%... We are on the verge of societal collapse.

In what way are we on the verge of societal collapse? The unemployment rate in the US during the Depression was way higher, and no societal collapse occurred then either.

kOaMaster
11-13-2009, 02:35 AM
how do option 1 people feel about those who chose option 2?

they don't care. or most people don't.
I think civil service makes more sense, it's a better opportunity to help the country. military in switzerland is basically just a waste of money as it is now imo (4-5% of the GDP).

jwbarrientos
11-13-2009, 03:08 AM
No need actually. In a short while that would be the primary source of jobs for youths.

Irony is involved, right?

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 02:02 PM
Let me explain it to you, in Europe (except for some countries) the people doesnt give a **** when Uncle Sam calls! We have better things to do.


Every time I hear this attitude expressed by my Euro friends I have to laugh. Current day Europe enjoys the fruits of American militarism, and most of the semi-intelligent people in the E.U. know that it's a situation that can't be sustained; namely because the U.S. cannot afford to outspend the rest of the world for very much longer.

Once the American military shield withdraws from Europe (which it is in the process of starting a shift to Asia) Europe will have to allocate a significant portion of GDP to compensate; the U.S. is not the only country in the world that has a high debt to GDP ratio... Europeans should be worried, but of course most of them are oblivious.

When the system changes, U.S. influence will wane, but we'll see how diplomatic the Euro's are when they have to pony up for their own defense.

klementine
11-13-2009, 02:09 PM
how arrogant of him.

Hahahahahaha

or as the swiss say..

Xaxaxaxaxaxa

klementine
11-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Every time I hear this attitude expressed by my Euro friends I have to laugh. Current day Europe enjoys the fruits of American militarism, and most of the semi-intelligent people in the E.U. know that it's a situation that can't be sustained; namely because the U.S. cannot afford to outspend the rest of the world for very much longer.

Once the American military shield withdraws from Europe (which it is in the process of starting a shift to Asia) Europe will have to allocate a significant portion of GDP to compensate; the U.S. is not the only country in the world that has a high debt to GDP ratio... Europeans should be worried, but of course most of them are oblivious.

When the system changes, U.S. influence will wane, but we'll see how diplomatic the Euro's are when they have to pony up for their own defense.

NATO(80% funded by America) is the worst thing that could've happened to europe... Turkey and Greece are both in NATO.. In 1996, Turkey occupied a Greek island in the aegean sea... Where is the protectionist contract? A NATO country occupying another NATO country. Why did the U.S. stand by and let this happen, Greece was helpless and could not take action.. in fear of WWIII starting... America uses NATO as a political tool in eastern europe and it has destroyed the region.

In 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus-- The government of Turkey did not want to.. America and NATO forced Turkey's hand along with a military dictatorship in Greece that was started/supported by America. 3 NATO countries attacked a small island in the SE mediterranean.. 10's of 1,000's of refugees.. 1,000's slaughtered... for what reason? So England and America could open some Naval and Air Force Bases to protect shipping interests and Israel.

If America wants air force and naval bases in the mediterranean.. pay the rent.. don't start proxy wars using other NATO allies.. killing 1,000's and creating even more refugees.. just for some rent-free bases to protect trade routes. And who do these trade-routes and bases protect? Europe's interests... I don't think so. There are many more examples but I want to keep this short.

America can keep it's NATO money, militarism/imperialism and stop involving itself in European matters.

Right now America is using NATO as a ploy to try to get Turkey into the E.U.

In 10years Europe will have its own unified defense coalition... Good-bye America.. Good-bye NATO.

If you have bad information or do not read... then do not talk/comment. It's better. These are very sensitive issues for some, especially those victims of this militarism/imperialism.

Europe will allocate the money needed. We don't need to fight America's enemies. Diplomacy is much cheaper than war.

And please.. don't label us as 'oblivious'.. Here we enjoy unfiltered access to information and news. Unlike some places I know of.

Even some of your congressman and political figures ( such as Joe Biden, Colin Powell and Bill Clinton) have apologized for America's coup de'tats, proxy wars and agrressive military stance.. But apologies don't mean ***** when your son or daughter have died for American facism/imperialism.

Jchurch
11-13-2009, 03:22 PM
No military service and no Davis Cup. It explains why Federer is so unpopular in Switzerland.


http://www.daviscup.com/teams/player.asp?player=10019424

Agreed. He has not done anything in the Davis cup. 48 rubbers is nothing at all. :)

~ZoSo~
11-13-2009, 03:45 PM
NATO(80% funded by America) is the worst thing that could've happened to europe... Turkey and Greece are both in NATO.. In 1996, Turkey occupied a Greek island in the aegean sea... Where is the protectionist contract? A NATO country occupying another NATO country. Why did the U.S. stand by and let this happen, Greece was helpless and could not take action.. in fear of WWIII starting... America uses NATO as a political tool in eastern europe and it has destroyed the region.

In 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus-- The government of Turkey did not want to.. America and NATO forced Turkey's hand along with a military dictatorship in Greece that was started/supported by America. 3 NATO countries attacked a small island in the SE mediterranean.. 10's of 1,000's of refugees.. 1,000's slaughtered... for what reason? So England and America could open some Naval and Air Force Bases to protect shipping interests and Israel.

If America wants air force and naval bases in the mediterranean.. pay the rent.. don't start proxy wars using other NATO allies.. killing 1,000's and creating even more refugees.. just for some rent-free bases to protect trade routes. And who do these trade-routes and bases protect? Europe's interests... I don't think so. There are many more examples but I want to keep this short.

America can keep it's NATO money, militarism/imperialism and stop involving itself in European matters.

Right now America is using NATO as a ploy to try to get Turkey into the E.U.

In 10years Europe will have its own unified defense coalition... Good-bye America.. Good-bye NATO.

If you have bad information or do not read... then do not talk/comment. It's better. These are very sensitive issues for some, especially those victims of this militarism/imperialism.

Europe will allocate the money needed. We don't need to fight America's enemies. Diplomacy is much cheaper than war.

And please.. don't label us as 'oblivious'.. Here we enjoy unfiltered access to information and news. Unlike some places I know of.

Even some of your congressman and political figures ( such as Joe Biden, Colin Powell and Bill Clinton) have apologized for America's coup de'tats, proxy wars and agrressive military stance.. But apologies don't mean ***** when your son or daughter have died for American facism/imperialism.

Im not denying that the US has pulled some shady practices all over the world in the name of self interest, but for all the failings of Nato, i think the situation would have been worse for many european countries had it not existed.

Noveson
11-13-2009, 03:59 PM
Dude do you have any idea how these < 10% official numbers are calculated?
They leave out people who stopped looking for work (because they are effin tired of looking for it; because they are not getting what they should be getting). They leave out people who work less hourse than what they actually want to do. You do not have to go to conspiracy websites Some fed economists have claimed this number.

GDP is a bad indicator to describe the state of the economy. And stock market can say anything (are oyu looking at S&P500?) at anytime. It of course went up when sh*t was piling up during Greenspan time.

No sh*t. I'm sure most know what cyclical unemployment is(which is what is calculated). What you're aren't getting is that unemployment is exactly what we define it as. Never was unemployment calculated as the total number of people not working, as this would be unrealistic. Of course more than 10% of people don't have jobs, but this 10% has been measured the same way as always and in no way is 10% on the verge of "societal collapse".

klementine
11-13-2009, 04:15 PM
Im not denying that the US has pulled some shady practices all over the world in the name of self interest, but for all the failings of Nato, i think the situation would have been worse for many european countries had it not existed.

Sometimes I can get rather emotional/irrational when it comes to this subject (personal reasons ). It's hard to seperate my personal emotions and cold reality.

I'm sorry but every time I ponder this theme from a nuetral stand-point I always react very, very irrational and just can't seem to do it. Again, personal reasons interfere.. I envy those who can look at the way this subject from an objective stand-point.

The only analogy I can give is the death penalty. The majority of people are against it.. except for those who have been affected by a herendous crime and the criminal is in jail watching cable t.v. on tax payers money. Then the situation is a little more complex under those circumstances.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 04:16 PM
NATO(80% funded by America) is the worst thing that could've happened to europe... Turkey and Greece are both in NATO.. In 1996, Turkey occupied a Greek island in the aegean sea... Where is the protectionist contract? A NATO country occupying another NATO country. Why did the U.S. stand by and let this happen, Greece was helpless and could not take action.. in fear of WWIII starting... America uses NATO as a political tool in eastern europe and it has destroyed the region.

Right. The age old conflicts of eastern Europe are of U.S. making; we're all too stupid across the pond to see it's our fault in the 400+ years of bickering. I'll agree with you that the U.S. does ALL of the heavy lifting in NATO, because Europe is incapable of handling it's own interests (which overlap with American interests)... Bosnia is a nice example of European competence. If Europe was left to itself, nothing would have been done and the problem would have spread.

In 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus-- The government of Turkey did not want to.. America and NATO forced Turkey's hand along with a military dictatorship in Greece that was started/supported by America. 3 NATO countries attacked a small island in the SE mediterranean.. 10's of 1,000's of refugees.. 1,000's slaughtered... for what reason? So England and America could open some Naval and Air Force Bases to protect shipping interests and Israel.

We've made several mistakes along the way in fighting the cold war, Greece was one of them, along with Iran, and several instances in Latin America. I'm not going to defend mistakes, mostly because I don't want to... however, I will remind you that the soviet threat was a real one.

If America wants air force and naval bases in the mediterranean.. pay the rent.. don't start proxy wars using other NATO allies.. killing 1,000's and creating even more refugees.. just for some rent-free bases to protect trade routes. And who do these trade-routes and bases protect? Europe's interests... I don't think so. There are many more examples but I want to keep this short.

Complete and utter oversimplification of the dynamics of the region. The U.S. security guarantee for the region extends to everyone who trades there, and you know it. On one hand you complain about NATO as primarily U.S. funded, and with the other you complain that the U.S. doesn't provide enough in compensation for it's use of allied bases. The ability of Europe to rebuild after WWII and during the cold war under the American umbrella is payment enough in itself. The fact is Europe isn't ready for the security blanket to get pulled off, which is why Germany and France freaked out after the pullout in 2004. Believe me there's a large portion of the U.S. establishment that is ready for the E.U. to grow up and fill in for an overextended U.S. presence.

America can keep it's NATO money, militarism/imperialism and stop involving itself in European matters.

Comedy.

Right now America is using NATO as a ploy to try to get Turkey into the E.U.

True. The U.S. has made no bones about supporting Turkey's admission into the E.U. It's France and Germany who have COMPLETELY jerked the Turks around by increasing requirements for admission once the previous levels are close to being met. Please deny this so I can laugh at you some more.

The U.S. is interested in the security of the region, and we feel that Turkey is a vital part of that security; the issue of Turkey and the E.U. is another example of how Europe is paralyzed to act on matters.

In 10years Europe will have its own unified defense coalition... Good-bye America.. Good-bye NATO.

If only.

If you have bad information or do not read... then do not talk/comment. It's better. These are very sensitive issues for some, especially those victims of this militarism/imperialism.

Imperialism is primarily a European tool. Anytime you want to debate I'm here, if you want to start using source comments we can see who's information is bad.

Europe will allocate the money needed. We don't need to fight America's enemies. Diplomacy is much cheaper than war.

When you've got a security guard reminding the bad guys to not enter, you're right.

And please.. don't label us as 'oblivious'.. Here we enjoy unfiltered access to information and news. Unlike some places I know of.

In some cases it's worse than being oblivious, sometimes you guys across the pond are just plain stupid.

Even some of your congressman and political figures ( such as Joe Biden, Colin Powell and Bill Clinton) have apologized for America's coup de'tats, proxy wars and agrressive military stance.. But apologies don't mean ***** when your son or daughter have died for American facism/imperialism.

Mistakes have been made, but the world shaped by American leadership is better than the alternative, if you can't see that.... I'm sorry....well not really.

onkystomper
11-13-2009, 04:26 PM
Why would they want to stop at England, don't they like Wales, Scotland and Ireland too? I'm pretty sure the other three countries in the UK would be much easier targets. Do you have any idea how insulting it is for you to refer to Britain as England in the context of WW2, my grandfather fought for 6 long years in WW2 as a proud SCOTTISH soldier in the BRITISH army, you are basically saying that he did nothing, it was all England, well sorry but ENGLAND cannot fight a war because ENGLAND has no army, just like Scotland Wales and NI. Yes there are English divisions, but they are all in the BRITISH army.

does not matter... we are all under the USA's mighty shield :)

onkystomper
11-13-2009, 04:26 PM
Actually its quite likely. If it wasnt for NATO Ie the united states, the USSR would have swallowed up western europe. Im not saying they are hero's, i am saying that europe has lived under americas shield for the past 50 or so years.
I have as many gripes as the next european about the united states but its merely stating a fact

hahahha... stupidest post of the year

klementine
11-13-2009, 04:30 PM
TO PGSanta76 -

That's all you can say.... You admit America has made mistakes? People died. Had to flee from there homes.

I never complained about America's lack of compensation, what compensation?... Britain doesn't pay any rent for their bases in Cyprus, America has built the largest Air Force Base in the mediterreanean in the occupied area of Cyprus and are waiting for the recognition of the 'N.Cypriot Turkish Govt.' to pay the cheap rent.

Imperialism might have started in France and England but America practices this without diplomacy.

Let's not forget, were talking about a country that their govt. leaked 'false' info to the press, then quoted the NYtimes and Washington post as a cause to pre-empt war... If that's not facism.. Then I must be clueless.

Again, this is a very personal subject for me. And you will never understand until one of your family members is a victim of these 'mistakes' and I pray you never will have to live with this reality. I'll just stop here.

The problem is America believes everything can be bought and sold.... the 'mistake' is the rest of the world does not think like this. There exist more important things like ancestral lands and culture... but I wouldn't expect Americans to understand those concepts.

klementine
11-13-2009, 04:38 PM
True. The U.S. has made no bones about supporting Turkey's admission into the E.U. It's France and Germany who have COMPLETELY jerked the Turks around by increasing requirements for admission once the previous levels are close to being met. Please deny this so I can laugh at you some more.
The U.S. is interested in the security of the region, and we feel that Turkey is a vital part of that security; the issue of Turkey and the E.U. is another example of how Europe is paralyzed to act on matters.

I'll just take this quote as a small example of your complete and utter ignorance to international matters and opinion.

Here in Europe, we feel that borders between U.S. and Mexico should be open and that Mexican citizens should have the same rights as American citizens. For the security of the region.

Do you now see why American foreign diplomacy doesn't work? Because you only take into consideration the American view point. The U.S. is interested in the security of the region???? How??? and for Who??? Not for us. For you.

onkystomper
11-13-2009, 04:38 PM
Right. The age old conflicts of eastern Europe are of U.S. making; we're all too stupid across the pond to see it's our fault in the 400+ years of bickering. I'll agree with you that the U.S. does ALL of the heavy lifting in NATO, because Europe is incapable of handling it's own interests (which overlap with American interests)... Bosnia is a nice example of European competence. If Europe was left to itself, nothing would have been done and the problem would have spread.



We've made several mistakes along the way in fighting the cold war, Greece was one of them, along with Iran, and several instances in Latin America. I'm not going to defend mistakes, mostly because I don't want to... however, I will remind you that the soviet threat was a real one.



Complete and utter oversimplification of the dynamics of the region. The U.S. security guarantee for the region extends to everyone who trades there, and you know it. On one hand you complain about NATO as primarily U.S. funded, and with the other you complain that the U.S. doesn't provide enough in compensation for it's use of allied bases. The ability of Europe to rebuild after WWII and during the cold war under the American umbrella is payment enough in itself. The fact is Europe isn't ready for the security blanket to get pulled off, which is why Germany and France freaked out after the pullout in 2004. Believe me there's a large portion of the U.S. establishment that is ready for the E.U. to grow up and fill in for an overextended U.S. presence.



Comedy.



True. The U.S. has made no bones about supporting Turkey's admission into the E.U. It's France and Germany who have COMPLETELY jerked the Turks around by increasing requirements for admission once the previous levels are close to being met. Please deny this so I can laugh at you some more.

The U.S. is interested in the security of the region, and we feel that Turkey is a vital part of that security; the issue of Turkey and the E.U. is another example of how Europe is paralyzed to act on matters.



If only.



Imperialism is primarily a European tool. Anytime you want to debate I'm here, if you want to start using source comments we can see who's information is bad.



When you've got a security guard reminding the bad guys to not enter, you're right.



In some cases it's worse than being oblivious, sometimes you guys across the pond are just plain stupid.



Mistakes have been made, but the world shaped by American leadership is better than the alternative, if you can't see that.... I'm sorry....well not really.

have you ever been outside of the USA?

klementine
11-13-2009, 04:54 PM
The fact is NATO helps America 100x more than any help/stability it offers to Europe.

If the opposite was true, America would not be paying 80% of the bill and they would have ceased support years after the 'wall fell'. They still pay the bills, because America needs NATO.

Again, Bosnia and Kosovo and the recognition of F.Y.R.O.M. all benefit America's interests not Europes. If America was so philanthropic... why aren't they intervening in Darfur or blackmailing China to do so through embargos?

Because it doesn't make money... No bases=No trade Routes=No money.

NamRanger
11-13-2009, 05:09 PM
The fact is NATO helps America 100x more than any help/stability it offers to Europe.

If the opposite was true, America would not be paying 80% of the bill and they would have ceased support years after the 'wall fell'. They still pay the bills, because America needs NATO.

Again, Bosnia and Kosovo and the recognition of F.Y.R.O.M. all benefit America's interests not Europes. If America was so philanthropic... why aren't they intervening in Darfur or blackmailing China to do so through embargos?

Because it doesn't make money... No bases=No trade Routes=No money.




I can answer that. Because the last time the U.S. intervened in Africa, they had dead soldiers on their hands and a lot of angry U.S. citizens (talking about Somalia).



Now it's true that the U.S. could embargo China and black mail them, however it would hurt the U.S. economically too much for what they would receive. I'm not an expert on this area though.

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:20 PM
Right. The age old conflicts of eastern Europe are of U.S. making; we're all too stupid across the pond to see it's our fault in the 400+ years of bickering. I'll agree with you that the U.S. does ALL of the heavy lifting in NATO, because Europe is incapable of handling it's own interests (which overlap with American interests)... Bosnia is a nice example of European competence. If Europe was left to itself, nothing would have been done and the problem would have spread.


Here's another quote I have a problem with. After the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, the Greeks and Turks lived in relative peace. Some of the most powerful and educated citizens of the Ottoman empire were Greeks. It wasn't until Britain got into game around the time of the Greek revolution 1823, when the British Empire needed the southern area of Greece for their benefit, because at the same time they were losing control of Egypt. They supported the Greeks and the Greek revolution and the modern Greek State was founded.

They divided and conquered. The modern Greek State was under British authority/support until 1922. Then Britain supported and sided with the Turkish Revolution, for British Petroleum (BP) to have access to the kurdish oil fields in eastern Turkey. The catostrophe in Smyrma of 1922 is a perfect example of this.

America decided to do the same thing in Cyprus, but not over 100years .. in 3months!!!... In Greece we have a saying.. 'The British will kill you with cotton.. the Americans with a knife'.

It's the difference in historical recognition... the British know their history and understand culture.. therefore their foreign diplomacy reflects this.

History is not the Black and White version that you believe it is.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 05:22 PM
That's all you can say.... You admit America has made mistakes? People died. Had to flee from there homes.

We've made mistakes in foreign policy. We will probably make mistakes in the future. What state has not. On a personal level, I've traveled to many places around the world... I don't like to see suffering, I don't think anyone does. If I could wave a magic wand and make the world a happy place for everyone... who wouldn't? Global politics is something that's difficult for most people to comprehend in scope; most look through the spyglass that is their own personal experience and project, and I think that is the source of a lot of ant-Americanism in the world.

I never complained about America's lack of compensation, what compensation?... Britain doesn't pay any rent for their bases in Cyprus, America has built the largest Air Force Base in the mediterreanean in the occupied area of Cyprus and are waiting for the recognition of the 'N.Cypriot Turkish Govt.' to pay the cheap rent.

I've never complained about risking American lives to fight a war that Europe should have taken care of itself either.... oh wait, I just did woops.

Imperialism might have started in France and England but America practices this without diplomacy.

Actually... no. Read a history book. Imperialism started long before the formation of the European nation states as we know them, modern Europe just globalized it in a nice little package. America is not an Empire, if you want to discuss Neo-imperialistic tendencies, fine... but we don't hang on to foreign lands for decades.

Let's not forget, were talking about a country that their govt. leaked 'false' info to the press, then quoted the NYtimes and Washington post as a cause to pre-empt war... If that's not facism.. Then I must be clueless.

You are clueless. That was the previous administration, who's party was soundly defeated the following election. That's called representative democracy. Our system is flawed, with signs of structural corruption... but fascist it is not.

Again, this is a very personal subject for me. And you will never understand until one of your family members is a victim of these 'mistakes' and I pray you never will have to live with this reality. I'll just stop here.

On a personal level, I'm sorry for any loss you have experienced. Truly. I don't wish ill on anyone, and I know that the policies of governments around the world including my own cause pain and misery for some peoples... I don't know how to fix that without inviting it on my own people. That's the honest truth.

The problem is America believes everything can be bought and sold.... the 'mistake' is the rest of the world does not think like this. There exist more important things like ancestral lands and culture... but I wouldn't expect Americans to understand those concepts.

You've got no clue about what American's believe in.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 05:25 PM
have you ever been outside of the USA?

France
Germany
Spain
Italy
Portugal
Colombia
Brazil
Venezuela
Mexico
Canada
Australia

Why?

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 05:29 PM
If the opposite was true, America would not be paying 80% of the bill and they would have ceased support years after the 'wall fell'. They still pay the bills, because America needs NATO.

America needs a stable and secure Europe, that's why it's there. If Europe was willing and able to make the necessary concessions for strategic security initiatives for the region the U.S. would be very HAPPY to shuffle along. Man you're clueless.

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:32 PM
America needs a stable and secure Europe, that's why it's there. If Europe was willing and able to make the necessary concessions for strategic security initiatives for the region the U.S. would be very HAPPY to shuffle along. Man you're clueless.

The problem for Europe is that NATO was the first and only (thus far) security alliance... the problem is purely logistical. Europe needs more time to work everything out. These strategic initiatives would benefit the U.S. more than Europe. There are no concessions... there are american demands.

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:36 PM
If these concessions involve Turkey joining the E.U., again that's an American demand of Europe.

EXAMPLE:
Again, Europe demands America to open it's borders with Mexico and have equal rights for Mexican citizens and the right to move freely through-out the borders... I'm the clueless one?

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Actually... no. Read a history book. Imperialism started long before the formation of the European nation states as we know them, modern Europe just globalized it in a nice little package. America is not an Empire, if you want to discuss Neo-imperialistic tendencies, fine... but we don't hang on to foreign lands for decades.



You are clueless. That was the previous administration, who's party was soundly defeated the following election. That's called representative democracy. Our system is flawed, with signs of structural corruption... but fascist it is not.

For argument's sake let's try to keep this within the context of the last 500years or so.


And if you believe that the world changes every four years when you change governments... or that what Bush or all the other Presidents before hand is erased and forgotten.. Then I can't help you. The think-tanks run American government and policy, have been since after WWII. Kennedy tried to fight the 'think-tanks' and special interest groups... well he got a couple of bullets in his head for that.

That's true facsim my friend. When you actually believe you have democracy. Hilarious.

You actually believe that the president and congress in America have power??? That's hilarious.

America has been on auto-pilot since Kennedy was assassinated... I'm the clue-less one?

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:44 PM
The problem, PGSanta76, is you actually believe what you read.

Good Night.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 05:51 PM
If these concessions involve Turkey joining the E.U., again that's an American demand of Europe.

EXAMPLE:
Again, Europe demands America to open it's borders with Mexico and have equal rights for Mexican citizens and the right to move freely through-out the borders... I'm the clueless one?

Stop pulling stuff out of your *****. The U.S. stance on Turkey does nothing to stop a E.U. defense force from being formed. The only "concessions" that are required for a European security initiative is in fact some sort of European initiative... Europe doesn't want to start paying for it's own defense, THAT'S why nothing has been established, THAT'S why nothing WILL be established anytime soon.

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:55 PM
^ Actually Europe started planning for a European.Defence.Coalition.... but guess who doesn't want it???

Again, America benefits from NATO far more than Europe does... that's why they continue to fund the majority of the spending.

klementine
11-13-2009, 05:58 PM
Stop pulling stuff out of your *****. The U.S. stance on Turkey does nothing to stop a E.U. defense force from being formed. The only "concessions" that are required for a European security initiative is in fact some sort of European initiative... Europe doesn't want to start paying for it's own defense, THAT'S why nothing has been established, THAT'S why nothing WILL be established anytime soon.

Oh it does. Big mistake on your behalf. Turkey is the 2nd largest contributor to NATO (besides America). Turkey in the E.U. would substantially cut-costs for America and also keep the NATO umbrella in Europe for the next 30-50years. Because Turkey's entry into the E.U. has to be accepted by Cyprus (an e.u. but not NATO member). It's a logistical nightmare for NATO and America. And without a solution in Cyprus Turkey will never be allowed into the E.U. and America will keep having to front the bill.

Again, America benefits from NATO far more than Europe does. America needs NATO despite the contradictory politics that are slung around in America.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:02 PM
For argument's sake let's try to keep this within the context of the last 500years or so.

You're funny.


And if you believe that the world changes every four years when you change governments... or that what Bush or all the other Presidents before hand is erased and forgotten.. Then I can't help you. The think-tanks run American government and policy, have been since after WWII. Kennedy tried to fight the 'think-tanks' and special interest groups... well he got a couple of bullets in his head for that.

Seriously man, please read a book. The think-tanks run policy? I wish. Can you give any sort of evidence for this at all... from a source other than your own *****hole.

That's true facsim my friend. When you actually believe you have democracy. Hilarious.

Our system has it's fair share of problems and corruption, but a representative democracy it still is.

You actually believe that the president and congress in America have power??? That's hilarious.


Again, you're an idiot. Yes, they do have power... which is why the big international corporations that have the most sway in western socio-political structures dump so much money on them.

America has been on auto-pilot since Kennedy was assassinated... I'm the clue-less one?

Your positions all make sense now.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:08 PM
Oh it does. Big mistake on your behalf. Turkey is the 2nd largest contributor to NATO (besides America). Turkey in the E.U. would substantially cut-costs for America and also keep the NATO umbrella in Europe for the next 30-50years. Because Turkey's entry into the E.U. has to be accepted by Cyprus (an e.u. but not NATO member). It's a logistical nightmare for NATO and America. And without a solution in Cyprus Turkey will never be allowed into the E.U. and America will keep having to front the bill.

Again, America benefits from NATO far more than Europe does. America needs NATO despite the contradictory politics that are slung around in America.

Re-read through what you just posted, and point out where Turkish entry into the E.U. is holding up France and Germany from pushing through a security initiative for the existing members.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:08 PM
^ America doesn't leave anything to coincidence or representitive democracy.

There are plans for the next 100 years of how the world needs to be shaped to benefit America.

That's why Bush stole(the CIA) the election in 2000... to lay the path-out for the next 20years. And then he was re-elected.

Obama will fall in line... just like the rest of them. The pieces are set... he is powerless.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:11 PM
Re-read through what you just posted, and point out where Turkish entry into the E.U. is holding up France and Germany from pushing through a security initiative for the existing members.

America doesn't want a European Defence Coalition. Do you get that?

How would that benefit America?

Why have they been supported 80%+ of the NATO bill for so long after the fall of communist Russia??????

If Turkey joins the E.U.... there's no need for a European Initiative.. the 2nd largest contributor being Turkey would be a logistical nightmare and the Europeans would be forced to support NATO 100%.

It's business when it comes down to it.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:18 PM
As the European Union has grown.. fianacial support for NATO by European countries has declined.

The push is for a E.U. defense... America doesn't want that and by pushing Turkey into the E.U. they can achieve that.

The costs of incorporating a country such as Turkey in this defense plan are too high.

It's just not practical as there already countries in the E.U. that are not in NATO.

America wants all European countries to be active members in NATO... but the growth of the E.U. has rivaled NATO's importance and NATO has become irrelevant... which is not good news for America.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:21 PM
^ America doesn't leave anything to coincidence or representitive democracy.

There are plans for the next 100 years of how the world needs to be shaped to benefit America.

That's why Bush stole(the CIA) the election in 2000... to lay the path-out for the next 20years. And then he was re-elected.

Obama will fall in line... just like the rest of them.

Wow, you figured out our plans to ensure that we rule the world. Do you know about the ultra high frequency radio waves we bombard Europe with to ensure that your children grow up dumb as nails too? Or how we spread N1H1 through the great American beverage "Coca-cola"?

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:22 PM
Turkey in the E.U. would bring back NATO's relevance to Europe and make it a plausable and logical solution.

Invest in the product that already exists... instead of creating one on your own... something which is 10x more expensive and time consuming.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:24 PM
Wow, you figured out our plans to ensure that we rule the world. Do you know about the ultra high frequency radio waves we bombard Europe with to ensure that your children grow up dumb as nails too? Or how we spread N1H1 through the great American beverage "Coca-cola"?

I'm not that stupid. :)
Every country has 'think-tanks'... the diference is in America the think-tanks are supported by very important special interest groups... such as certain financial groups... the same finacial groups that your private federal reserve takes loans from.

No other country 'cuts' money like America.. the federal reserve has very 'special' powers. But it all comes for a price.... democracy is curbed.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:32 PM
I suggest you do some research on your 'Federal Reserve' so you can understand that it is the only central bank that acts in that manner in the world.

Where do they get that priveledge from?

Don't tell me it's production.. because china and india far surpass the states in terms of production.

Maybe it has something to do with the universal resrve?

All these 'abilities' come at a price and if America wants those abilities they have to sacrifice freedom and true democracy.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:41 PM
Listen. Can I tell you something?

I was not always like this.( crazy! :) ) I was raised in the states (but not born there), am an American citizen and love the country and the people. And believe in the core-values of American democracy.

But my fiance's Father here in Greece is a very high ranking general in the Greek Air Force (fighter jet/cargo pilot for 20+ years)... Spent some time in Naples,Italy with NATO and was in NATO during the Bosnia incursion.

Now he holds a position in the Greek pentagon and he has flooded my minded with questions...

His comrades/co-workers all say the same things I'm saying now....

It was a shock for me because I expected them to have some respect for the system they defend and take their bread from... but it's exactly the opposite...

He'll be leaving to visit the States in December with the Greek Minister of Defense ... and although he doesn't divulge everything to me... he describes and tells me what he can.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Turkey in the E.U. would bring back NATO's relevance to Europe and make it a plausable and logical solution.

Invest in the product that already exists... instead of creating one on your own... something which is 10x more expensive and time consuming.

You're buying into French propaganda. The reason no security initiatives have been implemented for existing members of the E.U. has nothing to do with whether or not Turkey is or will be a member. The reason the U.S. wants Turkey in as part of the E.U. has very little to do with NATO, and a WHOLE lot more to do with alternative energy pipelines and supply routes.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:46 PM
I suggest you do some research on your 'Federal Reserve' so you can understand that it is the only central bank that acts in that manner in the world.

Where do they get that priveledge from?

Don't tell me it's production.. because china and india far surpass the states in terms of production.

Maybe it has something to do with the universal resrve?

All these 'abilities' come at a price and if America wants those abilities they have to sacrifice freedom and true democracy.

I know exactly WHO the Fed is. Do you? Can you name the top 5 stake holders in the Fed? I bet you can't. Do you know what EUROPEAN banks are involved with the Fed? Dollar hegemony is probably close to it's end, but the truth is the world needs the Dollar just as much as the bloated U.S. government needs people to keep sucking them up.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:46 PM
^ whoever holds the standing army.... holds the pipelines.

You think they fight wars just for the fun of it?

or make coalitions because they like eachother?

It's all about business and money.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:48 PM
Listen. Can I tell you something?

I was not always like this.( crazy! :) ) I was raised in the states (but not born there), am an American citizen and love the country and the people. And believe in the core-values of American democracy.

But my fiance's Father here in Greece is a very high ranking general in the Greek Air Force (fighter jet/cargo pilot for 20+ years)... Spent some time in Naples,Italy with NATO and was in NATO during the Bosnia incursion.

Now he holds a position in the Greek pentagon and he has flooded my minded with questions...

His comrades/co-workers all say the same things I'm saying now....

It was a shock for me because I expected them to have some respect for the system they defend and take their bread from... but it's exactly the opposite...

He'll be leaving to visit the States in December with the Greek Minister of Defense ... and although he doesn't divulge everything to me... he describes and tells me what he can.

Cool. I think. Hearsay is fun.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:48 PM
I know exactly WHO the Fed is. Do you? Can you name the top 5 stake holders in the Fed? I bet you can't. Do you know what EUROPEAN banks are involved with the Fed? Dollar hegemony is probably close to it's end, but the truth is the world needs the Dollar just as much as the bloated U.S. government needs people to keep sucking them up.

^ we're agreeing in asense here... and yes Rothchild invest group... the largest private financial bank in Europe is the #1 contributor of th FED.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:50 PM
Cool. I think. Hearsay is fun.

Heresay? I don't know about that.... the world is a very fragile and vulnerable place.

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:54 PM
Anyway.

It's 5 in the morning here in Greece and tomorrow is Saturday... sleep in day.

I bid you a good night and may I end with a quote from socrates? ;) as a peace gesture?

'All I know.. is that I know nothing at all'

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:56 PM
Ok, I've got a dinner date I've got to get ready for. It's been fun. I apologize for the personal insults, they are embarrassing to re-read. In the end, there are differing views across the pond that might cause a rift, but never one big enough to forget common roots. Goodnight for now.

P.S. I'm right.

PGSanta76
11-13-2009, 06:57 PM
;-)

10char

klementine
11-13-2009, 06:58 PM
^ I think we're both right.

Just depends which way the world decides to ebb and flow.

Bertie B
11-13-2009, 07:29 PM
Actually... no. Read a history book. Imperialism started long before the formation of the European nation states as we know them, modern Europe just globalized it in a nice little package. America is not an Empire, if you want to discuss Neo-imperialistic tendencies, fine... but we don't hang on to foreign lands for decades.

This poster don't know his elbow from him *****.

edmondsm
11-13-2009, 10:20 PM
no, not slashing, but streamlining. Im sure that every carrier and sub out there is not entirely necessary, and they are expensive to maintain (especially carriers. i would be intrigued to find out how much it costs to operate one, with ammunition, food, thousands of sailors, etc etc)

It is an absurd amount of money. Everybody knows the statistics. We spend more on the military then the next 23 countries combined......or something to that effect. Think about if we spent half that on education. Maybe we'd be smart enough to not subside on MacDonalds our whole lives.

tenniskid567
11-13-2009, 10:55 PM
......oops wrong post.

tenniskid567
11-13-2009, 11:01 PM
No worries. We'll just invade Mexico to boost our economy. It always works [/sarcasm]

Except most of Mexico is already here....haha. (sarcasm....mostly)