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View Full Version : Bercy court pace and bounce circumstance!


Manhattan
11-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Hi guys

I'd like to know about the pace of court central in Bercy?!
How fast is it?! Is it still the fastest Masters this year or not?! How do you compare it with the previous years?! slower faster?!
Thanks in advance

Manhattan
11-12-2009, 01:47 PM
No one has any opinion on this?!

Manhattan
11-13-2009, 09:10 AM
Bump! .....

Bud
11-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Hi guys

I'd like to know about the pace of court central in Bercy?!
How fast is it?! Is it still the fastest Masters this year or not?! How do you compare it with the previous years?! slower faster?!
Thanks in advance

It's fairly slow with a nice high bounce.

DNShade
11-13-2009, 02:20 PM
It's fairly slow with a nice high bounce.

Actually, it apparently has a pretty low bounce - it's laid over wood so the ball tends to die a bit quicker and stay lower - but it is a relatively slow (for indoor) surface.

Blinkism
11-13-2009, 02:25 PM
I'd say it's pretty consistent with the rest of the indoor tournaments in the fall.

It's definitely faster than the Australian Open or Indian Wells courts.

DNShade
11-13-2009, 02:28 PM
Well the word directly from some of the guys who have been playing on it this week is that it's playing similar in speed to IW with a lower (wood) bounce.

Bud
11-13-2009, 02:29 PM
Actually, it apparently has a pretty low bounce - it's laid over wood so the ball tends to die a bit quicker and stay lower - but it is a relatively slow (for indoor) surface.

Just look at the ball and the action off the court. Even the announcers stated earlier today that the players were noticing the slow court and the high bounce :oops:

The ball stays lower when it's sliced or on a DS... which is par for the course on a rough court.

Bud
11-13-2009, 02:30 PM
Well the word directly from some of the guys who have been playing on it this week is that it's playing similar in speed to IW with a lower (wood) bounce.

Funny... because the announcers stated the opposite of this earlier.

DNShade
11-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Just look at the ball and the action off the court. Even the announcers stated earlier today that the players were noticing the slow court and the high bounce :oops:

The ball stays lower when it's sliced or on a DS... which is par for the course on a rough court.

Well I'm not sure what announcers you are listening too - but Robbie and Jason have mentioned all week that it was bouncing low and not giving players a lot of time to get to the ball - why the drop shot was working well - not because of the rough surface but because of the sub-surface its laid over (wood). Now it is a fairly rough (slow) court surface too but it's NOT a high bouncing court at all. There is a difference between how a court takes spin and the actual bounce of the ball. Bercy takes spin well but doesn't bounce nearly as high as a hard court.

My info isn't just from watching TV it's from some of the camps of the players I spoke with earlier in the week. I don't know myself - I haven't played on it - just going by what the actual players have said - and it seems to jive with what I'm seeing and what that announcers are saying. And if you've played on indoor (temp) courts that are laid down like these are you know what that indoor (sort of dead) bounce is like.

Bud
11-13-2009, 03:19 PM
Well I'm not sure what announcers you are listening too - but Robbie and Jason have mentioned all week that it was bouncing low and not giving players a lot of time to get to the ball - why the drop shot was working well - not because of the rough surface but because of the sub-surface its laid over (wood). Now it is a fairly rough (slow) court surface too but it's NOT a high bouncing court at all. There is a difference between how a court takes spin and the actual bounce of the ball. Bercy takes spin well but doesn't bounce nearly as high as a hard court.

My info isn't just from watching TV it's from some of the camps of the players I spoke with earlier in the week. I don't know myself - I haven't played on it - just going by what the actual players have said - and it seems to jive with what I'm seeing and what that announcers are saying. And if you've played on indoor (temp) courts that are laid down like these are you know what that indoor (sort of dead) bounce is like.

Yes, they were referring to slices and knifed volleys... which die on this surface. However, the topspin is really bouncing pretty high (which makes sense if you think about it since the rough court will grab the opposite spin, slow the ball down and then kick it upwards)... and the side kick component on twist serves is definitely noticeable.

It would be an unusual court that is rough, slow and has a low topspin bounce... as rough + slow = high bounce. Slick + fast = low bounce on both slice and TS since the ball has nothing to grab.

Ever played tennis on a smooth concrete court? TS balls stay low and fly through the court while sliced balls also stay low and slide through the court... I've never played on grass but imagine it's very similar to a 'real' concrete court.

DNShade
11-13-2009, 03:56 PM
Yes, they were referring to slices and knifed volleys... which die on this surface. However, the topspin is really bouncing pretty high (which makes sense if you think about it since the rough court will grab the opposite spin, slow the ball down and then kick it upwards)... and the side kick component on twist serves is definitely noticeable.

It would be an unusual court that is rough, slow and has a low topspin bounce... as rough + slow = high bounce. Slick + fast = low bounce on both slice and TS since the ball has nothing to grab.

Ever played tennis on a smooth concrete court? TS balls stay low and fly through the court while sliced balls also stay low and slide through the court... I've never played on grass but imagine it's very similar to a 'real' concrete court.

I actually played quite a bit on a pure concrete court. When I was growing up the courts I started playing on were just that. No surface at all. Just smooth concrete. And to make matters worse - it was near a really sandy dunes area so sand would blow over and leave a nice little layer of sand to make the courts eve slicker...As you can imagine I learned to take the ball very early.

(as an aside - the fastest court I ever played on was in Germany. It was a court laid over concrete that was made up of plastic - it was a sort of snap together jigsaw court surface that was made of slick plastic. Wow - now that was fast!)

When I was a kid, I always thought the same as you - that the old slick concrete court must be what a grass court was like - till I started playing on grass - WRONG. Nothing like it at all to be honest. The ball doesn't slide nearly as much on grass as on slick concrete, and it bounces MUCH lower if it bounces at all - I mean the ball just dies. When you are bouncing the ball before you serve - you have to literally throw the ball down to get it to bounce back to your hand. Really. Take a ball out on your front lawn and bounce it a bit - try to play a little tennis out there. That's what playing on grass is really like. It's almost a totally different sport.

As for Bercy - it has that indoor (laid over wood) bounce. It's a bit dead. Meaning - no matter what kind of surface it is - rough and gritty - the ball just doesn't bounce up as high. Meaning if you drop a ball from the same height on a hard court and on Bercy - it returns - bounces - less. It's literally a softer base court and absorbs a bit more of the ball.

That's what I and the guys mean by a low bounce. It doesn't mean that it doesn't take top/kick well - it does - but the bounce isn't there. It has a low bounce. All you had to do is watch Dr. Ivo and Isner's serves to see that they weren't getting the high bounces they usually do. The spin and kick is there - but just a bit lower. This dead bounce combined with the slower surface really makes the drop shot work well. But trust me - it's bouncing (the actual height of the bounce) quite a bit less that a hard court.

And I've heard there are a few dead spots on both courts as well. Pretty much par for the course for these type on installed courts.

klementine79
11-14-2009, 12:28 PM
as soon as I quit my job... train like Agassi, enter some futures tournaments, get a ranking, train some more like Agassi, join the ITF, work my way up the ranks, train some more like Agassi on meth, get an invite to a tier 2 ATP tourny, qualify... win, train more like Agassi on meth and steroids... beat a top 20 player... twice!!.. then get a qualification for paris....

I'll let you know (just give me like 5 years). ;)

NamRanger
11-14-2009, 12:32 PM
I actually played quite a bit on a pure concrete court. When I was growing up the courts I started playing on were just that. No surface at all. Just smooth concrete. And to make matters worse - it was near a really sandy dunes area so sand would blow over and leave a nice little layer of sand to make the courts eve slicker...As you can imagine I learned to take the ball very early.

(as an aside - the fastest court I ever played on was in Germany. It was a court laid over concrete that was made up of plastic - it was a sort of snap together jigsaw court surface that was made of slick plastic. Wow - now that was fast!)

When I was a kid, I always thought the same as you - that the old slick concrete court must be what a grass court was like - till I started playing on grass - WRONG. Nothing like it at all to be honest. The ball doesn't slide nearly as much on grass as on slick concrete, and it bounces MUCH lower if it bounces at all - I mean the ball just dies. When you are bouncing the ball before you serve - you have to literally throw the ball down to get it to bounce back to your hand. Really. Take a ball out on your front lawn and bounce it a bit - try to play a little tennis out there. That's what playing on grass is really like. It's almost a totally different sport.

As for Bercy - it has that indoor (laid over wood) bounce. It's a bit dead. Meaning - no matter what kind of surface it is - rough and gritty - the ball just doesn't bounce up as high. Meaning if you drop a ball from the same height on a hard court and on Bercy - it returns - bounces - less. It's literally a softer base court and absorbs a bit more of the ball.

That's what I and the guys mean by a low bounce. It doesn't mean that it doesn't take top/kick well - it does - but the bounce isn't there. It has a low bounce. All you had to do is watch Dr. Ivo and Isner's serves to see that they weren't getting the high bounces they usually do. The spin and kick is there - but just a bit lower. This dead bounce combined with the slower surface really makes the drop shot work well. But trust me - it's bouncing (the actual height of the bounce) quite a bit less that a hard court.

And I've heard there are a few dead spots on both courts as well. Pretty much par for the course for these type on installed courts.



Couldn't have said it any better.

Manhattan
11-14-2009, 10:50 PM
if you drop a ball from the same height on a hard court and on Bercy - it returns - bounces - less. It's literally a softer base court and absorbs a bit more of the ball.
I think this example does not make sense, assume you do this test on a clay court and a hard court, What will be the result?! The ball definitely bounces lower on clay, nevertheless we know the ball bounces higher on clay court without a doubt. I think the structure of the drop shots or slice shots is basically different from the other shots, such shots have no enough pace for skidding on the court and also the trajectory of a drop shot is near to the angle of 90 so it prevents skidding the ball too.