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View Full Version : for those over 40-why switch to the 1 handed backhand from a 2 hander as you age?


EKnee08
11-17-2009, 10:48 AM
This was originslly posted on health and fitness in the "over 40 thread"
Quote:
Originally Posted by court_zone
No problem, My dad is now regretting switching to the one-hander, he's going to try and practice the mechanics on the two-hander again.

I have always had a one-hander. I learned back in the early 70s when the classic way was a one hander with continental grip. Since returning to the game in the mid to late 90s I adopted a modern one hander with topspin.
My question is this, why would you switch from a two hander to a one hander as you age? I would have thought about doing the opposite. As one gets older, and has less strength, wouldn't a two hander be more beneficial in the same way it is for ladies and kids?

LeeD
11-17-2009, 10:54 AM
I switched from 2HBH to one hander around that age.
2HBH needs one more step each direction, which I can't provide.
2HBH needs a running style not complimentary to speed and quickness.
2HBH tends to hit the ball faster, not something I'd choose to do all the time.
2HBH doesn't tend to defend against body shots as well as 1HBH. At 5.0 levels and good speed, opponents beat me with body shots on critical points.
Loss would be controlled topspin lobs, great 2HBH overheads, and solid volleys on balls I can reach, but mainly solid half volleys on tough low balls.
I suspect best would be to 2HBH flat and topspin, and 1HBH slice and approach shots.
Volleys your choice.

dozu
11-17-2009, 11:51 AM
1h rules.

the reach difference makes recreational tennis so much more efficient with the 1hbh than the 2hbh.

I always have the 1hbh.... since I blew my knee 2 years ago, I have since used more and more squash slap shot even on the FH side, this allowed me to play at about 80% of my pre-injury level and I still get to beat up the old foes :)

40 may not be a big threshold.... but once one pushes 50, movement with 2hbh just becomes such a liability.

and we all know movement is key number 1 in tennis.

Nellie
11-17-2009, 11:55 AM
well, you could go with a slice on every shot. I certainly do not want to bend that much.

Djokovicfan4life
11-17-2009, 12:08 PM
I switched from 2HBH to one hander around that age.
2HBH needs one more step each direction, which I can't provide.

Care to explain that one?

2HBH needs a running style not complimentary to speed and quickness.

Why would you have to run any more with 2 hands?

2HBH tends to hit the ball faster, not something I'd choose to do all the time.

Again, why?

2HBH doesn't tend to defend against body shots as well as 1HBH. At 5.0 levels and good speed, opponents beat me with body shots on critical points.

If anything, I've heard the opposite. What does a one hander offer over two hands when it comes to body shots?

Loss would be controlled topspin lobs, great 2HBH overheads, and solid volleys on balls I can reach, but mainly solid half volleys on tough low balls.
I suspect best would be to 2HBH flat and topspin, and 1HBH slice and approach shots.
Volleys your choice.

The rest of your post doesn't make much sense. Are you saying that 2 hands is better for backhand overheads and and volleys? You're gonna have to explain this as well.

papa
11-17-2009, 12:19 PM
I think a lot of this depends on what level your playing. If your against some big hitters, or age has slowed you down a spec, then a 2HBH will compensate for these and other factors. One hander looks better, I guess, but harder to time and complete the swing - less macho. Older players are into more doubles and the 2HBH seems to work better for them. Can you convince everyone to use it? - NO, I don't even try anymore. I'll show them the stroke mechanics and if they think it for them, fine.

I actually like the 2HBH and use it myself for the above reasons and I can get a lot more spin on the ball. Its easier for return of serve especially if your having to return balls with a lot of pace. To me its just more consistent/dependable and I find it a more relaxing stroke. I still use a slice drive with one hand.

LeeD
11-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Hi DJ, I guess your take is polar opposite mine. I played up to maybe 5.5 levels with 2HBH, hardly ever slicing wide balls one handed.
But age catches up. With 2 hands on racket, I find my reach is shorter, like you all say for both groundies and volleys. When I stretch out wide, one handed reaches farther FOR ME. Maybe not for you.
For me, topspin 2HBH's took full commitment, so I couldn't just reach out and hit it, I had to get into position with closed feet and shoulders turned, which takes longer to recover from than sliced 1HBH's. You'll agree, I think. Modern 2HBH can be hit semi openstanced, so the recovery can be quicker and needs less distance. Alas, I played my best tennis from '77 thru '79. Meaning conti grip strong, conti with EFH flavor weak hand....which worked great for strong volleys.
Defending body shots are done ONE HANDED with the backhand side. Both hands on the racket, you need to let go, so it's ONE HANDED. You know that.
Can anyone hit a harder BACKHAND overhead than the William's sisters? Guess what, 2HBH.
Volleys.... you musta heard of FrewMcMillian, GeneMayer, and JimmyConnors! Connors used 2HBH VOLLEYS exclusively until he made #1. The other's were ranked top 3 doubles players, for their volleys.
Two handed volleys have double the stability, encourage the body to move forwards, is waaaaay quicker in fast net exchanges. You know that!
If you need any more explanations, maybe you're lacking a bit of knowledge you always preach that you have. FACT.... 2HBH can work! If it works on groundies, why not volleys?

Ultra2HolyGrail
11-17-2009, 03:26 PM
There is no good reason at all to switch to a one hander. Reach? Extra step? Pleeze. Just realize you will throw your consistent backhand most one handers dream about, and better returns, for nothing. It can only hurt you than help you. Hit a one handed slice if you are pulled out wide. It's that simple. It's not like a one hander is going to make you hit great shots when pulled way wide anyway especially if you where a two hander your whole life. And just think of all the crappy returns, missed passing shots, and shanked shots you will hit on shots hit right to you.


I've played two handers that are 45yrs old and still there baseline game is more consistent than the vast majority of one handers that are younger.

Another thing is any good player will keep his game until he stops playing. Same with a one hander. Just say a two hander had better reach somehow. I would not expect a player to take up a two hander having played with a one hander his whole life.

LeeD
11-17-2009, 03:36 PM
I suspect you could GUESS all you want about your future, but until that future ARRIVES, you're only guessing.
I"m 60. Decision made 20 years ago. Most of my opponents can hit alley to alley easily, making an old fart run more than he wants to run.
YOU might be a gazelle at 40. Not me, I'm more a skinny, out of shape old man who plays tennis once a week at most...when I was 40. And 10 years off tennis completely made me realize I maybe should have adopted the 1HBH to match my speed and retrieval skills.

papa
11-17-2009, 03:51 PM
......... I would not expect a player to take up a two hander having played with a one hander his whole life.

Excellent post.

Sometimes/often a player has to give up a one hander due to circumstances beyond his control - age, for instance, plays terrible tricks on us and although, try as we might, we've lost a little "something" and we're mishitting balls. If your unable/willing to make adjustments to your game as you grow older than you might find you've missed the boat.

I played guys tonight that were years younger, stronger and just plain good players. Even with a 2HBH I was a little late on more shots than I care to mention. But the bottom line was, they were just too strong, too good and I could not keep up. With a one hander, I'm not sure how many balls I could have even really kept in play or returned.

But I agree with your assessment of this situation.

nfor304
11-17-2009, 04:47 PM
1 hander requires less upper body rotation than a 2 hander. Maybe some players make the switch because of back issues.

junbumkim
11-17-2009, 05:46 PM
I think they start to use 1 bh slice more and more. Biggest reason is movement.

Switching to 1h bh isn't really easy at the age of 40, but adopting slice backhand isn't as difficult.

I remember Agassi started to use more and more slice bh in the final year of his career. I think it's largely related to his decreased movement - because of his age or injury, i don't know.

aimr75
11-17-2009, 05:57 PM
1 hander requires less upper body rotation than a 2 hander. Maybe some players make the switch because of back issues.

or lower body for that matter, with the one hander, youre for the most part remaining in a closed stance.. with the 2hbh, there is alot more hip rotation to bring the body around..

VaBeachTennis
11-17-2009, 05:58 PM
This was originslly posted on health and fitness in the "over 40 thread"
Quote:
Originally Posted by court_zone
No problem, My dad is now regretting switching to the one-hander, he's going to try and practice the mechanics on the two-hander again.

I have always had a one-hander. I learned back in the early 70s when the classic way was a one hander with continental grip. Since returning to the game in the mid to late 90s I adopted a modern one hander with topspin.
My question is this, why would you switch from a two hander to a one hander as you age? I would have thought about doing the opposite. As one gets older, and has less strength, wouldn't a two hander be more beneficial in the same way it is for ladies and kids?

For some folks, the "belly" gets in the way. For others it's footwork..........
I've used a 1 hander since I was 20, before that I used two hands.

EKnee08
11-18-2009, 06:16 AM
1h rules.

the reach difference makes recreational tennis so much more efficient with the 1hbh than the 2hbh.

I always have the 1hbh.... since I blew my knee 2 years ago, I have since used more and more squash slap shot even on the FH side, this allowed me to play at about 80% of my pre-injury level and I still get to beat up the old foes :)

40 may not be a big threshold.... but once one pushes 50, movement with 2hbh just becomes such a liability.

and we all know movement is key number 1 in tennis.

Yes-I am getting close to 50 and have Osteoarthritits in both knees with little or no cartilage. As a result, I had microfracture surgery on one knee. I had very good footwork before the knee problems really hit me. I can still move okay but am still adapting to my conditionand trying to adjust my game with the goal of playing for the rest of my life. I have always had a onehander.
Based on my your post, it seems that it would make the most sense to stay with the one hander?

LeeD
11-18-2009, 07:25 AM
More impact on joints playing 2HBH. Your joints not perfect, so you decide.
I don't know why DJ for life questions the lack of reach with 2HBH, but you all seem to agree with me.
And slice is just fine, if you mix it with topspin occasionally. KenRosewall only sliced one handers. At his best, he would be at least 5.5 nowadaze, ya dink?
JimmyConnors mostly sliced or sidespun his 2HBH. He could go a few rounds in Open tournaments now.
TommyHaas and Federer slice quite a few 1HBH's, and they seem to play decent tennis...at least to me.

jrod
11-18-2009, 09:19 AM
I'm 53 and have always had a 1HBH. At times when my tennis elbow flares up I have considered switching to a 2HBH, but ultimately opted to stay with the 1HBH.

Why? Simple. Movement. LeeD has already explained but the extra half-step or so isn't that easy to summon at this age. I know several players who have switched from 2HBHs to 1HBHs because they've lost a step (or two). I know of no one who has gone the other direction unless it was medically necessary (1 guy due to chronic tendonitis, and another guy because of surgery issues).

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-18-2009, 09:29 AM
Can anyone hit a harder BACKHAND overhead than the William's sisters? Guess what, 2HBH.

Rafter, Agassi, Federer, Sampras... :)

Djokovicfan4life
11-18-2009, 09:52 AM
More impact on joints playing 2HBH. Your joints not perfect, so you decide.
I don't know why DJ for life questions the lack of reach with 2HBH, but you all seem to agree with me.
And slice is just fine, if you mix it with topspin occasionally. KenRosewall only sliced one handers. At his best, he would be at least 5.5 nowadaze, ya dink?
JimmyConnors mostly sliced or sidespun his 2HBH. He could go a few rounds in Open tournaments now.
TommyHaas and Federer slice quite a few 1HBH's, and they seem to play decent tennis...at least to me.

I don't recall saying that the 2HBH had the same reach. I do recall you saying that a 2HBH requires more running, which I thought was absurd. The difference in reach is minimal (we're talking a few inches here), not nearly enough to force a player to move much further.

Couple that with the fact that the one hander is hit much further out in front than the two hander and you can see that one handers have to get fairly close to the ball to set up for a proper topspin backhand. The added reach is only really a factor when you're talking about desperation lunging backhand slices.

Matt

LeeD
11-18-2009, 09:55 AM
er...
In a boxing match, as in line play in football or scrum in rugby, the MALE player wins.
Your example of top male pros vs FEMALE pros don't hold water in reality.
Why not say "which can grow taller"?
Or "more hair"
Most tennis players can hit two handed backhand overheads harder than one handers because the support arm SUPPORTS and involves the whole body into the shot.
Shots out of reach are just that. Don't count, it's out of reach!

LeeD
11-18-2009, 09:58 AM
Hi Matt...
I see where you're getting at. And I agree! If you insist on hitting only topspin backhands, then there is no reach difference to speak of. However, at SIXTY years really old, a few inches makes a BIG difference!
But my backhand game is about 50/50 top to slice ratio, so when run out beyond the alleys, or over 4 steps, I slice it back low and slow deep to give me time...which incidentally is running out for me.

jrod
11-18-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't recall saying that the 2HBH had the same reach. I do recall you saying that a 2HBH requires more running, which I thought was absurd. The difference in reach is minimal (we're talking a few inches here), not nearly enough to force a player to move much further.

Couple that with the fact that the one hander is hit much further out in front than the two hander and you can see that one handers have to get fairly close to the ball to set up for a proper topspin backhand. The added reach is only really a factor when you're talking about desperation lunging backhand slices.

Matt


Valid point. For a solid 1HBH the ideal position is not that different from the 2HBH in terms of distance from the ball. In addition, most 2HBH players have a slice anyway so we can discard that from the equation.

The question is, what happens in between the drive and desparation slice? I can tell you that I hit a number of 1HBHs that don't fall into either category. Some are more defensive than others. The question of using a 2HBH on these in-between balls is well, an existential one.

LeeD
11-18-2009, 11:30 AM
Unless you're JimmyConnors, you run faster with the racket held in one hand.

mike53
11-18-2009, 11:35 AM
1 hander requires less upper body rotation than a 2 hander. Maybe some players make the switch because of back issues.

I actually developed pain in my non-dominant shoulder from the 2hbh follow through over the dominant shoulder. This inspired me to really work on my slice.

Djokovicfan4life
11-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Unless you're JimmyConnors, you run faster with the racket held in one hand.

One handers prepare with the left hand holding the throat of the racquet, so that's all moot as well. Check out Federer's running backhand at 0:27-0:30, you can see that he's holding the racquet with two hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vrojpBD2iU

LeeD
11-18-2009, 02:19 PM
When I'm forced to run wide and far, I SLICE the ball, something that can be done mostly with one hand.
For topspin backhands, I ALWAYS use the support and help from the oft hand, making a unit turn, but that's topspin.
I don't want to hit every backhand with topspin, not before, not now, not ever.

jrod
11-18-2009, 02:30 PM
When I'm forced to run wide and far, I SLICE the ball, something that can be done mostly with one hand.
For topspin backhands, I ALWAYS use the support and help from the oft hand, making a unit turn, but that's topspin.
I don't want to hit every backhand with topspin, not before, not now, not ever.


Which brings us to an interesting set of questions:

1. For a 1HBHer, what percentage of BH's do you slice?

2. For a 2HBHer, what percentage of BH's do you slice?

I'm a 1H'er, and I slice at least 50% of BHs. My son is a 2H'er and he slices maybe 30% of BH's.

LeeD
11-18-2009, 03:03 PM
Hmm...
30 years ago, when I was OK, I'd hit 95% 2HBH flat or slightly topped.
Now, one handed, tops 50% when confident, maybe 10% when tentative. When I'm forced from alley to alley, run like a dog, you might say I'm getting tentative..:cry:

Djokovicfan4life
11-18-2009, 05:07 PM
When I'm forced to run wide and far, I SLICE the ball, something that can be done mostly with one hand.


Good slice backhands use the left hand just like the topspin backhand.

LeeD
11-19-2009, 07:03 AM
When I'm forced to run 4 steps or alley to alley, I don't think about GOOD backhands, I'm thinking "get the ball back somewhere away from opponent's strong shot". Don't need to be GOOD, don't need to be GREAT FORM, don't need to be TEXTBOOK.
Don't you even PLAY tennis, Matt? Retreiving, fetching, and getting is NOT GOOD TENNIS. So when you do the RFG, you just get the ball back any way you can !:shock::shock:
Matt, play some real matches, don't teach so much.

mike53
11-19-2009, 07:35 AM
Like this? Here is bh slice,topspin, onehand, twohand and even a slice forehand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MjTSmgaLKU

A fine lesson for all in doing what you have to do

papa
11-19-2009, 09:24 AM
For some folks, the "belly" gets in the way. For others it's footwork..........
I've used a 1 hander since I was 20, before that I used two hands.

Oh yes the belly issue - its a problem especially with older players. Its almost impossible to teach a 2HBH, along with many other things, to these players. Just getting them to hit good overheads can be an adventure in itself.

You really have to modify your entire teaching method because its unrealistic to think they are going to loose the weight. Be interesting to hear different thoughts on this because its frustrating knowing that they cannot do it the right way but they want to learn. Not all are in this position but far too many - I wonder, at times, why they are even out there punishing themselves. Even people who "claim" to "have been" former college/HS players can be a problem because of the weight issue.

I think is one of those things that the older you get the better you were - can be dangerous if they fail to realize their body isn't what it used to be. If you decline to instruct certain players you can get into a lot of hot water too so its a "lose - lose issue".

LeeD
11-19-2009, 11:38 AM
Tell me about it....
Turned 60 in Feb, and sooooo much slower to change directions and get from alley to alley.

papa
11-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Tell me about it....
Turned 60 in Feb, and sooooo much slower to change directions and get from alley to alley.

Well, cheer up, they're going tp get a lot worse.

VaBeachTennis
11-19-2009, 02:08 PM
Oh yes the belly issue - its a problem especially with older players. Its almost impossible to teach a 2HBH, along with many other things, to these players. Just getting them to hit good overheads can be an adventure in itself.

You really have to modify your entire teaching method because its unrealistic to think they are going to loose the weight. Be interesting to hear different thoughts on this because its frustrating knowing that they cannot do it the right way but they want to learn. Not all are in this position but far too many - I wonder, at times, why they are even out there punishing themselves. Even people who "claim" to "have been" former college/HS players can be a problem because of the weight issue.

I think is one of those things that the older you get the better you were - can be dangerous if they fail to realize their body isn't what it used to be. If you decline to instruct certain players you can get into a lot of hot water too so its a "lose - lose issue".

I would tell them to make tennis a "fitness/learning experience". I could probably get away with it because I have a little "spare tire" myself. For the two hander, I would encourage them to learn it like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvhVEBMvh_0
Note the part where he talks about "cramping" your stroke. So in one sense and within reason, the belly could be a training aid. :)
The only reason why I have a belly is that after I work out for a few hours playing tennis, I come back home with my friends and rehydrate with some beers. I'm in my early forties and I'm quicker than and routinely outlast guys younger than me and in "outward" better physical shape than I am.
Yes, as one ages, they still think that they can do the things that they did when they were younger. I'm guilty of it myself. I feel great when I'm playing, but I pay for it later when I had a really hard workout. When I get up from sitting down and am a little stiff, my wife relishes in laughing at me and saying "Hey old man!". ;)

Bungalo Bill
11-19-2009, 02:27 PM
This was originslly posted on health and fitness in the "over 40 thread"
Quote:
Originally Posted by court_zone
No problem, My dad is now regretting switching to the one-hander, he's going to try and practice the mechanics on the two-hander again.

I have always had a one-hander. I learned back in the early 70s when the classic way was a one hander with continental grip. Since returning to the game in the mid to late 90s I adopted a modern one hander with topspin.
My question is this, why would you switch from a two hander to a one hander as you age? I would have thought about doing the opposite. As one gets older, and has less strength, wouldn't a two hander be more beneficial in the same way it is for ladies and kids?

Sometimes it is for physical reasons. Back problems, stamina, etc...

The onehander still requires good footwork and timing though.

papa
11-19-2009, 03:38 PM
I would tell them to make tennis a "fitness/learning experience". I could probably get away with it because I have a little "spare tire" myself. For the two hander, I would encourage them to learn it like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvhVEBMvh_0
Note the part where he talks about "cramping" your stroke. So in one sense and within reason, the belly could be a training aid. :)
The only reason why I have a belly is that after I work out for a few hours playing tennis, I come back home with my friends and rehydrate with some beers. I'm in my early forties and I'm quicker than and routinely outlast guys younger than me and in "outward" better physical shape than I am.
Yes, as one ages, they still think that they can do the things that they did when they were younger. I'm guilty of it myself. I feel great when I'm playing, but I pay for it later when I had a really hard workout. When I get up from sitting down and am a little stiff, my wife relishes in laughing at me and saying "Hey old man!". ;)

Thanks, I had watched that video quite a while ago and had actually forgotten about it but there are some good pointers that I will use.

Had women today, all of which were reasonably fit and eager to learn which makes the time go by quicker.

You know its kinda funny. I've been into athletics my whole life and just grew up with aches, pains, black & blue ankles, missing teeth and the works - thought it was the price you paid to do the sports. Serious aches "get in the whirlpool", semi-serious - "tape it" was always the answer -- my god at times I looked like a halloween freak with mange because the tape would pull out the hair and my general appearance gave the impression I had been in the loosing end of an ongoing brawl. I think eventually I just became sort of numb to the whole process.

VaBeachTennis
11-19-2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks, I had watched that video quite a while ago and had actually forgotten about it but there are some good pointers that I will use.

Had women today, all of which were reasonably fit and eager to learn which makes the time go by quicker.

You know its kinda funny. I've been into athletics my whole life and just grew up with aches, pains, black & blue ankles, missing teeth and the works - thought it was the price you paid to do the sports. Serious aches "get in the whirlpool", semi-serious - "tape it" was always the answer -- my god at times I looked like a halloween freak with mange because the tape would pull out the hair and my general appearance gave the impression I had been in the loosing end of an ongoing brawl. I think eventually I just became sort of numb to the whole process.

LOL, I hear that (minus the missing teeth). I've played tennis, handball, paddleball, racquetball, boxed, grappled, and cycled, for most of my life. Aches and pains have always been a constant in my life as well. ;)
My main sports were tennis, handball, boxing, grappling, and the other racquet sports. I took up cycling in my late 30's.

nfor304
11-19-2009, 05:12 PM
delete 10chars

nfor304
11-19-2009, 05:12 PM
or lower body for that matter, with the one hander, youre for the most part remaining in a closed stance.. with the 2hbh, there is alot more hip rotation to bring the body around..

Great point.

Compare this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2006_08_08_federer_backhand_2.jpg



To this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2007_09_27_djokovic_backhand_2.jpg

Bungalo Bill
11-19-2009, 05:53 PM
Great point.

Compare this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2006_08_08_federer_backhand_2.jpg



To this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2007_09_27_djokovic_backhand_2.jpg


These really aren't good shots to compare. You need to compare a onehander to a twohander with comparable ball heights.

Frank Silbermann
11-19-2009, 08:06 PM
1 hander requires less upper body rotation than a 2 hander. Maybe some players make the switch because of back issues. In a way, that happened to me. At age 26 I tried to switch to a two-handed backhand and very quickly gave myself my first serious back pain. Anytime I had more than a couple of two-handers, the pain would return. That was when I decided to switch to single-handed forehands on both sides.

Before that, I had struggled for ten years trying to develop a one-handed topspin backhand (which most of the tennis books said you should master before adding the supplementary underspin shots). Yeah, I could hit it -- if I were playing well, if my opponent were letting me plant my feet to set up for the shot, if I were hitting cross-court (certainly not inside-out), if the ball were not very high or very low, and certainly not on-the-rise. I couldn't even settle on a grip -- a strong grip wouldn't let me retrieve the wide shots and was tiring on the low balls, and a continental grip required perfect timing and a huge effort even to get a little topspin.

At age 53 I depend on the increased court coverage that I get with two forehands (even if one of them is choked up on the handle). I can hit more easily while moving since open stance, square stance, and closed stance are all good options. And I can hit cross-court, down-the-line, or inside out of either side, so I never have to run around a shot that's down the middle. I don't fear high-bouncers or need to move back to let it drop or up to get it on-the-rise -- I can just hit it at whatever height it comes to me. If the shot is very low I can just switch (from eastern-near-semiwestern) to a continental grip and return the ball flat or with a bit of top without having to squat all the way down; I can use the continental grip to return very wide shots while still hitting through the ball. If the ball is high and short I can go for the winner off either side -- I don't have to settle for a deep approach that will only end up with me having to run back for a lob. Even though I'm slow at the net, at least I don't have to worry about being lobbed over my backhand.

It's a big advantage that at my intermediate level partially compensates for my general utter lack of athletic talent.

aimr75
11-19-2009, 08:22 PM
These really aren't good shots to compare. You need to compare a onehander to a twohander with comparable ball heights.

BB, so with the contact point of Djok's in the pics, Fed would still be in a closed stance.. but at a very low contact point like Feds, Djok would not be turning the hips so much? Is this what you are referring?

xFullCourtTenniSx
11-19-2009, 09:29 PM
Great point.

Compare this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2006_08_08_federer_backhand_2.jpg



To this:
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Your_Game/Instruction_Articles/Backhand/2007_09_27_djokovic_backhand_2.jpg

Okay then, let's have a go at it shall we?

Picture 1 is by far more beautiful and elegant. Picture 2 is more beastly and savage (and not in the good way like Safin). Picture 1 is composed and calm. Picture 2 looks like the caveman got angry and took out his wifebeater. Picture 1 is balanced and simple. Picture 2 looks like he's twisted and is about to do the same to his ankle joint.

How's that? :)

(Just kidding about the wifebeater part!)

papa
11-20-2009, 03:38 AM
More impact on joints playing 2HBH. Your joints not perfect, so you decide.
I don't know why DJ for life questions the lack of reach with 2HBH, but you all seem to agree with me.
And slice is just fine, if you mix it with topspin occasionally. KenRosewall only sliced one handers. At his best, he would be at least 5.5 nowadaze, ya dink?
JimmyConnors mostly sliced or sidespun his 2HBH. He could go a few rounds in Open tournaments now.
TommyHaas and Federer slice quite a few 1HBH's, and they seem to play decent tennis...at least to me.

Sliced backhand drive is a great shot and often underused in todays game. For most, its easier to execute, more accurate, better consistency and so on. However, if you play that shot most of the time or can't get it low and deep, your just asking for it. I was in a doubles match couple of nights ago and they were just waiting for that shot to attack. If you can keep it low, or use it as a change of pace, great but once that ball pops up, forget it, its going to get pounded back for a winner.

papa
11-20-2009, 04:05 AM
I don't recall saying that the 2HBH had the same reach. I do recall you saying that a 2HBH requires more running, which I thought was absurd. The difference in reach is minimal (we're talking a few inches here), not nearly enough to force a player to move much further.

Couple that with the fact that the one hander is hit much further out in front than the two hander and you can see that one handers have to get fairly close to the ball to set up for a proper topspin backhand. The added reach is only really a factor when you're talking about desperation lunging backhand slices.

Matt

Agree with you but the reach, depending on the players height and style can be a lot more than a few inches - I'd say maybe 6 - 10 inches ---- maybe thats what you meant by a few.

Also, my opinion is, that the 2HBH requires a couple more "adjustment/tiny steps" - and "maybe" a spec more distance but your right, it isn't much.

Many players, even at the pro level, really stay away from the one handed slice and prefer/are able to run those wide shots down and use the 2HBH. For the rest of us mortals, the lunging backhand slice becomes a necessity at times. I'm too often "overjoyed" when I take one of those graceful stabs and either give the net man an easy tap-over or end up so far out of position that any return is a winner.

Bungalo Bill
11-20-2009, 06:49 AM
BB, so with the contact point of Djok's in the pics, Fed would still be in a closed stance.. but at a very low contact point like Feds, Djok would not be turning the hips so much? Is this what you are referring?

Yes, the onehanded backhand is going to favor a nuetral to closed stance. However, the photos above aren't comparing things equally, because the onehanded backhand does lift up on the back foot and the hips do open as the arm heads into followthrough.

Showing the picture above of Federer shows him in the most closed stance for the onehander. Now, although the photo is correct, it is also misleading.

The onehander does execute some hip opening especially if it is using a more forward stance.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0hN_xQpdR3Ph6M:http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/77427135.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DIWSAsset%26k%3D2%26d%3D 17A4AD9FDB9CF1937E7588A1370768CD34AC4D9C02621D7CA7 CFF610D5B4FC25 http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:U4S3nRbV9lsFhM:http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/84485021.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DIWSAsset%26k%3D2%26d%3D 17A4AD9FDB9CF19346E4C5E9CA073261005CC73F68AFF1E6B0 1E70F2B3269972

On the shot from the poster of Federer, it is obvious by Federers position and where the ball is that he won't be getting his hips in the ball and will be in a very closed stance.

I understand what the poster of the photos is trying to do but when you are analyzing something both photos or videos need to be more oranges to oranges rather than apples to oranges. That is all I am saying.

jrod
11-20-2009, 07:44 AM
^^^ The head pro at my club who I hit with attended a USPTA clinic last year at the US Open with Patrick McEnroe and a number of others involved in player development. One of the questions that came up was "what can 1H'ers do to compete with the 2HBH?"

The advice given was to set-up like a 2H'er does for a topspin drive BH, load with the back foot (i.e. left for a righty) and lift it on contact with your weight moving in the direction of the shot. This has the effect of causing the hips to open up more after contact and the back leg swings around as you finish the stroke, much like the 2H'ers look after they hit their BH shot.

It was clear that by encouraging this it essentially requires an additional investment in ones footwork to set up properly. I guess the idea of intentionally lifting the back foot on contact demands a more balanced and aligned set-up. The swinging around during recovery makes the shot look more like a 2H'er, even though the core rotation is less than with the 2H'er. When I execute it properly my 1HBH topsin drives are heavier. I still have trouble setting up sometimes, partly due to age and partly due to old-dog, new-trick...

Bungalo Bill
11-20-2009, 08:40 AM
The advice given was to set-up like a 2H'er does for a topspin drive BH, load with the back foot (i.e. left for a righty) and lift it on contact with your weight moving in the direction of the shot. This has the effect of causing the hips to open up more after contact and the back leg swings around as you finish the stroke, much like the 2H'ers look after they hit their BH shot.

Exactly. This is why I thought the two photos provide were more apples to oranges. What I don't want is for people to think I was criticizing the poster. However, I did want to help people improve their analysis skills if they are diving into this area.

The hips are used in the onehanded backhand. One simply needs to look a Justin Henin to verify that one. However, the hips are less used when the stance is more closed due to obvious reasons.

The hips for the twohander are used as well and since it is more important for twohanders to allow their hips to move or swivel in the shot, they will tend to use more open stances rather than closed. Trying to hit a twohander from a closed stance isn't going to go very far.

It was clear that by encouraging this it essentially requires an additional investment in ones footwork to set up properly. I guess the idea of intentionally lifting the back foot on contact demands a more balanced and aligned set-up. The swinging around during recovery makes the shot look more like a 2H'er, even though the core rotation is less than with the 2H'er. When I execute it properly my 1HBH topsin drives are heavier. I still have trouble setting up sometimes, partly due to age and partly due to old-dog, new-trick...

Onehanded bakchand players have to have very good footwork and ball reading skills to execute this stroke consistently. It is a front foot hitting stroke and onehanders hit the ball sooner than twohanders.

Although a onehander can rely on stretching and stabbing at balls more than a twohander, to hit a good consistent ball, a onehanders movement and footwork have to be improved in order for their stroke to improve. Improving just your ability to change grips and swing your arm properly comes nowhere near what onehanders need to do to improve.

Federer hits a damn good onehanded backhand because his footwork, movement and ball reading skills on that side are damn good.

jrod
11-20-2009, 08:47 AM
....The hips for the twohander are used as well and since it is more important for twohanders to allow their hips to move or swivel in the shot, they will tend to use more open stances rather than closed. ...

This is a key point here. If you want to hit crosscourt using this technique, you more or less have to set up in an open stance to maintain your balance through the shot (less open for DTL for obvious reasons, but the backfoot is still loaded). It's a remarkably useful training tool since it naturally requires one to invest in the extra footwork required to hit a solid 1HBH. I continue to work on this to try and make my BH as formidable as my FH.