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View Full Version : Incoming ball, turn hip first?


morten
11-24-2009, 01:38 AM
Just thought about it...on groundstrokes.

gzhpcu
11-24-2009, 03:43 AM
Unit turn first (shoulders...)

aimr75
11-24-2009, 03:55 AM
Unit turn first (shoulders...)

step out first

papa
11-24-2009, 04:46 AM
Just thought about it...on groundstrokes.

Interesting question. Sure, we're looking for the unit turn but the hips actually get started first. Its one of those things that where ever the hips go the shoulders will follow - the opposite is not necessarily true. I believe that if you think of getting the hips moving a fraction of a second before the shoulders your going to be in great shape - if the shoulders move first, your in trouble because the hips might lag behind by quite a bit.

Now, I happen to be a big believer in using the lower body - legs and hips. Players who seem focused on the shoulder & arm "alone" are very prone to injury and don't get very far.

SystemicAnomaly
11-24-2009, 05:43 AM
^ Yes, I believe that this is what the OP was asking about. After the player has already turned for his/her preparation, the hips do uncoil slightly before the torso. In some preparations, the player already has an offset between the hips and the torso, so the hip turn might not be obvious.

Perhaps the OP can let us know, if this is what was meant.

LeeD
11-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Consciously try to turn the unit shoulder first. Some peeps, the hips go almost ahead.
But shoulder is the platform you hit with, like a tank, you can turn the threads to turn the turret, but try to turn the turret first!
In IPSC shooting, always a locked semi Weaver shoulder turn first.
In clay pigeon shooting, always a locked upper shoulder turn first.
When you get out of sync, you start to miss and get inconsistent.

Bungalo Bill
11-24-2009, 07:28 AM
Just thought about it...on groundstrokes.

You got it. When you are lowering your racquet and getting it ready to come forward, the importance of the knee bend starts to crystalize. The knee bend does several things with one of them allowing the hips to initiate your forward swing into the ball. Be careful not to over do it. It is simply part of your kinetic chain.

As an exercise, you can place your hands in front of you and keep them together (like you are praying). Now swing them back and forth in a figure eight style motion. When you want to swing your hands to the other side, the hips should initiate the movement and your hands follow. Keep repeating until you develop a ryhytm and flow. Back and forth, back and forth. Keep your knees bent while doing this. This is a great exercise to feel the kinetic chain on both sides.

morten
11-24-2009, 08:18 AM
^ Yes, I believe that this is what the OP was asking about. After the player has already turned for his/her preparation, the hips do uncoil slightly before the torso. In some preparations, the player already has an offset between the hips and the torso, so the hip turn might not be obvious.

Perhaps the OP can let us know, if this is what was meant.

It is what i meant yes :) because many times as i focus on rotating shoulders my hips don`t follow... I know this is a bit nerdy question, but i love visualizing things like that on my way to tennis perfection ... :)

LeeD
11-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Full combat Weaver stance is what BB is referring to. Accurate, replicable, fast, and easiest to employ. Hips pivot yes, but shoulders show the most movement pivoting from the hips.

papa
11-24-2009, 06:42 PM
Full combat Weaver stance is what BB is referring to. Accurate, replicable, fast, and easiest to employ. Hips pivot yes, but shoulders show the most movement pivoting from the hips.

Not sure what a "full combat weaver stance" is but you are correct in that the shoulders can and do over-rotate the hips on both sides. My only point was that the hips should get going first and the shoulders will not only catch up but over-rotate on the finish. We're talking about very small differences in time here but I like players thinking hip and legs. I even encourage them to hit the ball with their legs which is really is not what happens but I want the legs involved with the whole process.

spacediver
11-24-2009, 09:26 PM
As an exercise, you can place your hands in front of you and keep them together (like you are praying). Now swing them back and forth in a figure eight style motion. When you want to swing your hands to the other side, the hips should initiate the movement and your hands follow. Keep repeating until you develop a ryhytm and flow. Back and forth, back and forth. Keep your knees bent while doing this. This is a great exercise to feel the kinetic chain on both sides.

I just did this and then decided to experiment a bit, and had something of a revelation:

I took off my top and stood in front of mirror.

I then raised my arm to shoulder level and pointed my hand directly in front of me.

I then rotated only my hips, and locked my shoulder joint so that there was no independent rotation coming from my shoulder joint.

I was amazed! The amount of power generated by the hips alone is staggering!

Now imagine what you can do in terms of power if you add the following ingredients:

1) Loosen the shoulder joint so that angular momentum can be transferred to the arm. This has two benefits as far as I can see:

a) on the backswing, the momentum is transferred to the arm once the hip stops rotating. This allows the arm to be brought back nicely, activating stretch receptors in the deltoids and pectorals, which can facilitate optimal neuromuscular firing from those muscles.

b) on the forward swing, once the hips slow down, the momentum is transferred to the arm, increasing its velocity.

2) Rotate the shoulder joint independently, using the deltoids and pectorals to swing the arm.

3) Spring forward using the legs so that your body is thrust forward.

All this ontop of the piggybacking velocity of the hips!!

SystemicAnomaly
11-25-2009, 02:29 AM
Having the hips offset from the torso (coil) will create stretching (tension) of the core muscles. This will store energy in those muscles which is released when the upper body uncoils. By uncoiling the hips slightly before the torso rotation, the core muscles momentarily store energy which is subsequently released as the upper body rotation follows the hip rotation. This relationship between the hips and the torso is illustrated very well in the following video of the spring-loaded serve technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88)
.

papa
11-25-2009, 04:44 AM
Having the hips offset from the torso (coil) will create stretching (tension) of the core muscles. This will store energy in those muscles which is released when the upper body uncoils. By uncoiling the hips slightly before the torso rotation, the core muscles momentarily store energy which is subsequently released as the upper body rotation follows the hip rotation. This relationship between the hips and the torso is illustrated very well in the following video of the spring-loaded serve technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88)
.

Well, I'm sure you realize that he is talking about what many of us refer to as a "cross over step" on the serve - Williams sisters used this approach which has now become quite common, especially among females and older players. Does it work, absolutely but you have to be careful of several factors and foot-faulting with the "back" or the "cross over step" can be tricky -- it often over-steps the baseline. You also have to hit a little higher arc and change your target position somewhat. No question there is a lot of body twist and if you just stand back from you computer and try it without a racquet you'll feel the additional loading.

SystemicAnomaly
11-25-2009, 04:52 AM
^ I've experimented with the serving style with some very good results and no foot faults even tho' I use normally use a platform stance more than a pinpoint stance. However, the primary reason I posted this is because The Serve Doctor does a pretty good job of describing the relationship between the hips and torso and talks about how the differential between them stores energy in the core.

papa
11-25-2009, 05:47 AM
^ I've experimented with the serving style with some very good results and no foot faults even tho' I use normally use a platform stance more than a pinpoint stance. However, the primary reason I posted this is because The Serve Doctor does a pretty good job of describing the relationship between the hips and torso and talks about how the differential between them stores energy in the core.

Although I live fairly close to Pat and visit that place a few times every year, I've never met him - at least I don't think I have. I have however seen a couple (few) of his videos from time to time - good stuff. I like adjusting the instruction to the level/ability of the player - not an easy task at times. However, only teaching one way can/often does lead to disaster. A sixty year old body just can't do what a twenty year old body can but that doesn't mean we can't all learn from the pro ranks.

albesca
11-25-2009, 12:58 PM
....

1) Loosen the shoulder joint so that angular momentum can be transferred to the arm. This has two benefits as far as I can see:

a) on the backswing, the momentum is transferred to the arm once the hip stops rotating. This allows the arm to be brought back nicely, activating stretch receptors in the deltoids and pectorals, which can facilitate optimal neuromuscular firing from those muscles.

b) on the forward swing, once the hips slow down, the momentum is transferred to the arm, increasing its velocity.

2) Rotate the shoulder joint independently, using the deltoids and pectorals to swing the arm.

3) Spring forward using the legs so that your body is thrust forward.

All this ontop of the piggybacking velocity of the hips!!

So doing , right shoulder doesn't move inline with the left ... but stretches and rotate back .. and after it brings the arm ahead . Right deltoid and right pectoral become the first engine ...
is this the matter some pro do a very high beginning of the take back loop ? Are They unlocking the right shoulder joint and stretch back the right deltoid and pectoral ?

SystemicAnomaly
11-25-2009, 01:17 PM
... I like adjusting the instruction to the level/ability of the player - not an easy task at times. However, only teaching one way can/often does lead to disaster. A sixty year old body just can't do what a twenty year old body can but that doesn't mean we can't all learn from the pro ranks.

Agreed. I will usually present students with different options and let them chose the one or ones that suits them best after a bit of experimentation. My 57 year old body & brain doesn't seem to have any problems learning new or different techniques to pass on to others. However, many players do not seem to have this ability so you go with what works best for them.

spacediver
11-25-2009, 01:59 PM
So doing , right shoulder doesn't move inline with the left ... but stretches and rotate back .. and after it brings the arm ahead . Right deltoid and right pectoral become the first engine ...
is this the matter some pro do a very high beginning of the take back loop ? Are They unlocking the right shoulder joint and stretch back the right deltoid and pectoral ?

if i understand you correctly, here is my response:

I think the stretch in the pecs and delts peaks when the hips start opening up (so if you're right handed and preparing for a forehand, this would mean that the maximum stretch occurs when the torso (powered by the hips) starts to rotate counterclockwise).

So this creates a bit of a lag effect on the shoulders.

Not sure what pros do or if this is even advisable mechanics - I'm just thinking out aloud here :)

albesca
11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
if i understand you correctly, here is my response:

I think the stretch in the pecs and delts peaks when the hips start opening up (so if you're right handed and preparing for a forehand, this would mean that the maximum stretch occurs when the torso (powered by the hips) starts to rotate counterclockwise).

So this creates a bit of a lag effect on the shoulders.

Not sure what pros do or if this is even advisable mechanics - I'm just thinking out aloud here :)

...i see i am a step back on forehand understanding ... you are talking about "When" the right shoulder retracts and stretch its linked tendons ..
..
May you clarify what happen inside the right shoulder joint using this pic ?
--> http://www.quailridgestudios.com/med3.html

papa
11-26-2009, 05:30 AM
Agreed. I will usually present students with different options and let them chose the one or ones that suits them best after a bit of experimentation. My 57 year old body & brain doesn't seem to have any problems learning new or different techniques to pass on to others. However, many players do not seem to have this ability so you go with what works best for them.

Yeah, you reach an age where your brain starts making commitments you body can't keep - this applies to tennis as well.

LeeD
11-26-2009, 07:28 AM
I started really concentrating on pivoting my torso into my forehands about a month ago. Hit really hard and consistently for 2 weeks, then strained my torso muscles and have been out since ....:shock::shock::oops:
Yup, old age (60), and out of shape has caught up again....

spacediver
11-26-2009, 07:34 PM
...i see i am a step back on forehand understanding ... you are talking about "When" the right shoulder retracts and stretch its linked tendons ..
..
May you clarify what happen inside the right shoulder joint using this pic ?
--> http://www.quailridgestudios.com/med3.html

the stretch would occur when the shoulder undergoes an external rotation (bottom left picture in that image you linked to).

albesca
11-26-2009, 10:51 PM
the stretch would occur when the shoulder undergoes an external rotation (bottom left picture in that image you linked to).

Thank you. I would know more ..i'll open a new post about..

Bungalo Bill
11-30-2009, 08:06 PM
I just did this and then decided to experiment a bit, and had something of a revelation:

I took off my top and stood in front of mirror.

I then raised my arm to shoulder level and pointed my hand directly in front of me.

I then rotated only my hips, and locked my shoulder joint so that there was no independent rotation coming from my shoulder joint.

I was amazed! The amount of power generated by the hips alone is staggering!

Now imagine what you can do in terms of power if you add the following ingredients:

1) Loosen the shoulder joint so that angular momentum can be transferred to the arm. This has two benefits as far as I can see:

a) on the backswing, the momentum is transferred to the arm once the hip stops rotating. This allows the arm to be brought back nicely, activating stretch receptors in the deltoids and pectorals, which can facilitate optimal neuromuscular firing from those muscles.

b) on the forward swing, once the hips slow down, the momentum is transferred to the arm, increasing its velocity.

2) Rotate the shoulder joint independently, using the deltoids and pectorals to swing the arm.

3) Spring forward using the legs so that your body is thrust forward.

All this ontop of the piggybacking velocity of the hips!!

Yes, remember, once you understand the framework of how the body moves and after you connect the dots, now set it in motion going for smooth momentum through your body. Often this is called the kinetic chain. One part accelerates and slows down to speed up another. Do not waste any movement in your body, instead perfect it. Even the proper use of the non-dominant arm contributes to balance, power, momentum, and timing. Feel your legs in the shot from your toes or the balls of your feet.

Just don't over complicate it. I only have four steps to an effective forehand swing. Learning the four steps and once you discover how your hips work and the "figure 8" motion, it is a done deal. The rest is the pursuit of perfecting it.

So in your pursuit to master the technique, just try to draw power from the ground efficiently and effectively. Work on your movement (footspeed and patterns) so you can effectivley use the kinetic chain in your shots and hit more balls in your strike zone.

RafaBrain
11-30-2009, 09:55 PM
Just thought about it...on groundstrokes.
.
.
Incoming ball, turn hip first?
.
Very interesting point.
.
For decades, coaches are passing on "turn the shoulders" to players everywhere. But, many players just cannot (remember) turn their shoulders well.
why?
"Shoulders are not turnable by shoulders themselves".

LeeD
12-01-2009, 06:50 AM
You do need hips to turn shoulders.
So maybe ..... concentrate on USING your hips to turn your shoulders.

papa
12-01-2009, 09:37 AM
You do need hips to turn shoulders.
So maybe ..... concentrate on USING your hips to turn your shoulders.

Bingo - amazing how it works.

LeeD
12-01-2009, 01:58 PM
I don't often explain my thoughts very clearly, so it's amazing when something clicks just right ..:)

jmjmkim
12-01-2009, 02:34 PM
Easily said, hard to do

Bungalo Bill
12-01-2009, 02:50 PM
.
.
Incoming ball, turn hip first?
.
Very interesting point.
.
For decades, coaches are passing on "turn the shoulders" to players everywhere. But, many players just cannot (remember) turn their shoulders well.
why?
"Shoulders are not turnable by shoulders themselves".

That is because they are assuming your lower body is working properly. In certain occasions they will point out hip movement. However, if a player simply allows their body to work right and bends at the knees, openning the hips or turning them comes with the territory or you will look real weird if you don't. What is not normally turned enough is the shoulders which tends to get emphasized more.

Players do not need to over consciously turn the hips. Just bend at the knees get in a decent stance, stay balanced, and rotate back into the ball.

ScoopsHaaganDazs
12-01-2009, 03:56 PM
On my groundstrokes, I move my hip and shoulders at the same time. When I try to only move one of them, the other naturally goes along with it.

LeeD
12-01-2009, 05:19 PM
Hips are grounded by the legs.
Shoulders the link at the top.
But in between, torso twist can account for the entire shoulder turn, with very little hip twisting.
Sit in a chair, twist your shoulders, and see how much shoulder turn you can achieve without moving your hips. I sit all the time.
NOT saying you should hit with just torso twist, but it is part of the kinetic chain.

papa
12-02-2009, 05:00 AM
Hips are grounded by the legs.
Shoulders the link at the top.
But in between, torso twist can account for the entire shoulder turn, with very little hip twisting.
Sit in a chair, twist your shoulders, and see how much shoulder turn you can achieve without moving your hips. I sit all the time.
NOT saying you should hit with just torso twist, but it is part of the kinetic chain.

Damn, guy's getting pretty good on this stuff.

LeeD
12-02-2009, 07:11 AM
:)
and I still can't hit my level forehand, that being my weakest stroke.. :cry: