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crosscourt
11-24-2009, 01:42 PM
Slightly techy question but here goes. When you unwind into a forehand, do you try to unwind your upper body and hip together -- a sort of unit turn forward -- or do you move your shoulders forward much faster?

I hope this makes sense.

cc

LeeD
11-24-2009, 01:55 PM
TIMING is different for different players.
EFFECT is shoulder appear to move more, while hips are grounded with legs, so turn less.
Kinetic chain uses it all, but exact emphasis depends on WHO is doing the hitting and how they like to react to learning stimulas.
I say, concentrate on shoulder turn first, the rest will follow if you are loose and relaxed. If you're not loose and relaxed, the arming it might do the job in a pinch.:oops::oops: bad, but gets the ball back.

user92626
11-24-2009, 02:08 PM
IMO, don't overcomplicate yourself. The second you try to manually control a swing like that, everything will be screwed.

Just hit and incorporate your whole body into the action like one winds up and throws a spear as far as he can. Or like a pitcher pitching a ball involving turning his body. Clearly it should feel sufficiently natural with using the body in such way.

papa
11-24-2009, 03:32 PM
TIMING is different for different players.
EFFECT is shoulder appear to move more, while hips are grounded with legs, so turn less.
Kinetic chain uses it all, but exact emphasis depends on WHO is doing the hitting and how they like to react to learning stimulas.
I say, concentrate on shoulder turn first, the rest will follow if you are loose and relaxed. If you're not loose and relaxed, the arming it might do the job in a pinch.:oops::oops: bad, but gets the ball back.

Well, not sure I would go along with this - regardless of the shot, I want the hips and legs fully involved and moving slightly ahead of the shoulders whenever possible. I don't know much about shooting clay pigeons and the like but in tennis if the player get the shoulders moving first the shot just doesn't develop properly and is more herky jerky.

Others might and probably do see this a little different but to me, the legs and hips are of major/prime factors in hitting a tennis ball correctly - regardless of the stroke.

LeeD
11-24-2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah, we differ in that.
My take, if you have NO time, use your arms.
If you have some time, but not enough, use your shoulders and arms.
If you have time, use the whole kinetic chain from ankles thru arms.
If you're moving forwards with too much time, move forwards obviously using the whole darn ding.

papa
11-24-2009, 07:34 PM
Yeah, we differ in that.
My take, if you have NO time, use your arms.
If you have some time, but not enough, use your shoulders and arms.
If you have time, use the whole kinetic chain from ankles thru arms.
If you're moving forwards with too much time, move forwards obviously using the whole darn ding.

Yeah, no problem.

Bungalo Bill
11-24-2009, 07:45 PM
Slightly techy question but here goes. When you unwind into a forehand, do you try to unwind your upper body and hip together -- a sort of unit turn forward -- or do you move your shoulders forward much faster?

I hope this makes sense.

cc

Without getting into details and endless scenarios, the hips tend to lead the shoulder turn. However, this isn't a start stop kind of thing. it is sort of a chain reaction. Once the player loads and then starts to drop the racquet for the forward portion of the swing, the hips start to open first, then the shoulders open next.

Think of it more like one accelerates which causes the other to accelerate and then one decelerates while the other starts to decelerate. It is fluid. However, it is my belief that the shoulder turn turns a bit faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg

naylor
11-25-2009, 11:48 AM
... in the golf backswing the hips turn 45 degrees, the shoulders 90 degrees. Both turns happen together (the equivalent of the unit turn in golf), at a relatively smooth tempo, and the end result is that power is loaded at the end of the backswing.

However, in the downswing, the hip turn (back to square) has to lead the unwinding of the shoulder turn. Indeed, the hips clear - go past square, and start facing the direction of the shot, in front of the golfer - before the shoulders get back to square and the ball is hit. It is precisely the hips clearing and then slowing down that passes the energy of the swing to the shoulders, and then arms, and clubface, in a series of chain-reaction slingshots.

In the golf swing, it's very clear that if you're loaded at the top but then start the swing with your arms / shoulders (rather than knees and hips), you lose a lot of power and the swing becomes very erratic directionwise. Since the tennis swing loads and releases energy in a very similar way (hip and shoulder turn, and return), then it stands to reason that for the tennis forward swing to be most effective the hip turn have to lead - and then release - the shoulder turn, and as a result the shoulders will move around faster than the hips.

crosscourt
11-25-2009, 02:01 PM
Many thanks for all your help and observations.

cc