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View Full Version : Which country has the best system for producing pros?


papatenis
11-27-2009, 03:36 PM
We all know that the USTA is a joke when it comes to producing professional players. But which country do you think has the best system for producing pros?

I personally think the French has the best system.

Tsonga#1fan
11-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Judging by the number of top ranked players I'd say either France or Spain.

AM95
11-27-2009, 03:48 PM
Rwanda

10 char

Serendipitous
11-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Tankenville

jimbo333
11-27-2009, 04:37 PM
Well the UK has the worst!

(Murray had to go to Spain)

austro
11-27-2009, 04:42 PM
Clearly France. Not only in terms of top pro players but even at the club level... And this is consistent over time. Not like a one-time flash of three like Serbia.

Indeed, UK ranking near the bottom, as is Germany. Although, if you look at other top-producing countries (Spain, Argentina) it is hard to disentangle socio-economic incentives from the merits of the system without knowing it intricately (which I do not).

JeMar
11-27-2009, 04:45 PM
France and Spain.

TennisLurker
11-27-2009, 04:49 PM
Argentina doesn't have much of a system.

JeMar
11-27-2009, 04:54 PM
Argentine apparently has one coach that came up with something like 5 pros.

chadrico
11-27-2009, 04:55 PM
Kazakhstan Tennis Federation for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan

Serendipitous
11-27-2009, 04:55 PM
Kazakhstan Tennis Federation for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan

Lol, that's pretty funny. :D

TennisLurker
11-27-2009, 05:09 PM
Argentine apparently has one coach that came up with something like 5 pros.

The players helped each other, Gumy (in the late 90s he was the only argentine in the top 100) helped Gaston Gaudio with money so that he could travel outside of Argentina and play tournaments.
Sabatini also helped with money.

We do have a tennis federation and they helped both Coria and Nalbandian, and some female players who failed to deliver (Argentina has many good male players but has not had a good female player since Sabatini)

But everything is minimal compared to first world tennis federations.

sennoc
11-28-2009, 02:42 AM
Poland.

/deep sarcasm

kOaMaster
11-28-2009, 02:46 AM
switzerland *lol*

russia? ah no, they all go to the us...

joeri888
11-28-2009, 02:46 AM
Is Switzerland also doing something right? Or were they just that lucky to produce two good players, one of which is just so talented the coaches didn't have to do that much?

It's easy to call spain and France, but their big nations, and tennis is big there. I wonder whether countries like Israel or Croatia aren't doing a better job?

Spain and France of course judging by the numbers, but I'm not sure their education is the best.

Australia and UK are doing a poor job I think.

MuseFan
11-28-2009, 02:54 AM
Def Spain and France, by far.

the little dasher
11-28-2009, 03:06 AM
Is Switzerland also doing something right? Or were they just that lucky to produce two good players, one of which is just so talented the coaches didn't have to do that much?

It's easy to call spain and France, but their big nations, and tennis is big there. I wonder whether countries like Israel or Croatia aren't doing a better job?

Spain and France of course judging by the numbers, but I'm not sure their education is the best.

Australia and UK are doing a poor job I think.

We have a serious problem. Haven't got anyone coming through. We've had the same mgmt @ tennis Australia for too long though people like Hewitt are starting to speak out against it now. Unfortunately Pollard got re elected but I'm hopeful his days will soon be over. Not that I have much hope in his putative replacement (one of the non descript Macs - I forget which one) but at this stage I'm willing to try for the devil I don't know.

No_tricks
11-28-2009, 03:55 AM
We have a serious problem. Haven't got anyone coming through. We've had the same mgmt @ tennis Australia for too long though people like Hewitt are starting to speak out against it now. Unfortunately Pollard got re elected but I'm hopeful his days will soon be over. Not that I have much hope in his putative replacement (one of the non descript Macs - I forget which one) but at this stage I'm willing to try for the devil I don't know.

Bob Brett (coach Cilic, Becker) about Australian tennis and some other things:

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/news-audio/200901/20090116-sport-bobbrett.mp3

No_tricks
11-28-2009, 03:58 AM
Is Switzerland also doing something right? Or were they just that lucky to produce two good players, one of which is just so talented the coaches didn't have to do that much?

It's easy to call spain and France, but their big nations, and tennis is big there. I wonder whether countries like Israel or Croatia aren't doing a better job?

Spain and France of course judging by the numbers, but I'm not sure their education is the best.

Australia and UK are doing a poor job I think.

On the women's side Switzerland is doing pretty well with Mikaelean, Casanova, Gagliardi, Schnyder, Bacszinsky, Hingis, Voegele all in the top 100 in the last 5 years.
If you compare it to Sweden, who only had Arvidsson or the Netherlands who only had Krajieck.

Tsonga#1fan
11-28-2009, 04:06 AM
Is Switzerland also doing something right?

Australia and UK are doing a poor job I think.

I think Roger Federer is a rare breed. It wouldn't have mattered where he was from. Hell, he could have been from the UK and as long as a racquet found it's way into his hand he was destined for greatness.

jwbarrientos
11-28-2009, 04:06 AM
In ATP world based on results and considering material row I'd say:

1. France
2. Spain

Those two countries are ahead of the rest, honorable mention to my own country ARG, that I don't know how we still produce pros :neutral: I know our Natl Fed works silently on that.

In WTA not sure what country beyond Russia, those "babies" :oops: are all around, but don't know if Russia Natl Fed is behind them, take a look of Maria Sharapova's case, she is a pro "build" in USA but "born" in Russia.

equinox
11-28-2009, 05:22 AM
Mens, spain and france lead.
Womens, russia and in the future china.
Seriously check how many Chinese are outside the 100, it's crazy.

Ash_Smith
11-28-2009, 08:33 AM
In terms of having a structure which allows the vast majority of players to fulfil or exceed their potential then Spain and France are doing pretty well. The "system" that you talk of is simply that, an ability to put players in situations where they can thrive and achieve. A cohesive and unified approach to coaching and coach education helps too.

Womens tennis looks to be the former eastern bloc countries and I know China are plowing resources into womens tennis - but I havent worked in any of those countries so I don't know the "system" they have.

groundbreaker
11-28-2009, 08:48 AM
France, Spain, U.S., Germany, and Russia tend to have the highest number of ATP players.

kishnabe
11-28-2009, 08:53 AM
Spain I would believe is the best right now!

Marty502
11-28-2009, 09:06 AM
Certainly not Chile. Since 1997 we've had Rios, Gonzalez, Massu, and nobody.

Capdeville never rised his game to the elite, unlike Massu who enjoyed a period of glory, even with a brief stint into the Top 10. Capdeville's highest ranking was 70-something and he's almost 27 years old. We've got almost no inmediate prospects, but with plenty of juniors touring here and there who might become good.

One of the young players who might surprise us Chileans is Cristobal Saavedra, 19 years old ranked #403, who became a pro 2 years ago. So he's climbed almost 1000 spots in the rankings in that period, which is awesome. Write down his name somewhere.

There's also Jorge Aguilar, who's 24 years old and ranked #200-something. Might be a late bloomer. Hope he is.

Chadwixx
11-28-2009, 09:15 AM
Florida, thats why they are all here

rommil
11-28-2009, 09:21 AM
I say the Philippines but you will not hear about them because they never show up on time so they get disqualified.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 09:23 AM
I'll say France. They have a good system where the players come up together and motivate each other to do well, i.e. when Monfils was being successful it inspired Tsonga, Tsonga inspired Simon. Those guys really seem to get along well, and they're all so talented.

Mansewerz
11-28-2009, 09:25 AM
I think Roger Federer is a rare breed. It wouldn't have mattered where he was from. Hell, he could have been from the UK and as long as a racquet found it's way into his hand he was destined for greatness.

Would he say c'mon like Murray then?!!!

dincuss
11-28-2009, 09:35 AM
The USA is a great tennis producing country as well dont forget.
Just a lot of players they produce dont play for the USA.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 09:55 AM
Yeah the list of players Bollitieri's trained is astounding. And not all Americans.

-Maria Sharapova
-Jelena Jankovic
-Tatiana Golovin
-Nicole Vaidisova
-Sabine Lisicki
-Tommy Haas
-Monica Seles
-Mark Phillipousis
-Daniela Hantuchova
-Mary Pierce
-Paul Henri Mathieu

Those are just some of the international players who trained at Bollitieri's. Not to mention, 10 former world #1s trained at Bollitieri's. Maybe Bollitieristan is the best country for producing tennis talent! :lol:

Chadwixx
11-28-2009, 10:00 AM
And thats just one of the many academys in florida.

SikSerb
11-28-2009, 10:03 AM
Definetly isnt Serbia.

Tsonga#1fan
11-28-2009, 10:18 AM
Would he say c'mon like Murray then?!!!

No, I don't think so. I think only a ****** like Murray would even want to steal that from Hewitt.

Tsonga#1fan
11-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Serbia seems to turn out some good men's players. Not sure if it is just a fluke or a leftover from the Yugoslavia era.

PGSanta76
11-28-2009, 11:04 AM
Yeah the list of players Bollitieri's trained is astounding. And not all Americans.

-Maria Sharapova
-Jelena Jankovic
-Tatiana Golovin
-Nicole Vaidisova
-Sabine Lisicki
-Tommy Haas
-Monica Seles
-Mark Phillipousis
-Daniela Hantuchova
-Mary Pierce
-Paul Henri Mathieu

Those are just some of the international players who trained at Bollitieri's. Not to mention, 10 former world #1s trained at Bollitieri's. Maybe Bollitieristan is the best country for producing tennis talent! :lol:

I think Academies like Bolitieri's do a good job of taking an almost finished product, and finely developing it.

The USTA's problem isn't really one it can solve on it's own... Tennis is just not as popular in the states with young athletes as it used to be. In Spain and France Tennis vies with a few others behind "soccer". For various reasons young American athletes gravitate towards the big three in the U.S. (Football, Basketball, Baseball); until the USTA starts to pull some of those athletes from the big three... the days of the U.S. churning out grand slam winners is gone. We really got spoiled in the 90s.

borg number one
11-28-2009, 11:25 AM
I think that stating that the USTA is completely terrible is overstating things, especially when also considering Pro Women, and Doubles as well.

In the Open Era, the U.S. has had the following 9 Male Grand Slam Champions: Stan Smith, Arthur Ashe, Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi, Jim Courier, Michael Chang, and Andy Roddick. I think many Countries around the world would like to have such results.


In addition, look at all the other sporting opportunities great athletes have in the U.S.. The U.S. has a fairly good tennis system actually, as it constantly cranks out great junior players, as well as a lot of good college players as well. It's not doing too bad in the professional ranks either, but Americans tend to start freaking out whenever there isn't an American at least vying for the very top spot.

So, it's all relative when people say the U.S. is somehow "bad" as far as producing top tennis players. It's just that several countries are doing an equally good job, or better, in the top ranks, with in effect fewer resources (in absolute dollar terms) devoted to the programs.

Most countries on this list would be very satisfied with being tied for 4th, with 9 players currently in the Men's Top 100 (also #1 Men's Doubles Team). I'm not even counting all the foreign players that come to the U.S. either to attend college and play tennis or train at academies/tennis facilities, or basically become U.S. Citizens, such as Ivan Lendl, Martina Navratilova or Maria Sharapova.

Here's a breakdown by the number of players each country has in the Men's Top 100.

France, Germany and Spain are the only 2 countries that have more guys in the top 100 than the U.S.A. currently. Spain (R. Nadal) is the only one of those 3 that has a player ranked higher than Roddick currently.

Men's Top 100 (Number of Players By Country):

France-12
Germany-11
Spain-11

USA-9
Argentina-9

Russia-6
Italy-5
Croatia-4

Belgium-3
Serbia-3
Switzerland-3
Czechoslovakia-2
Brazil-2
Australia-2
Austria-2

(Republic of China) Taiwan-1
Equador-1
Cypress-1
Uruguay-1
Portugal-1
Netherlands-1
Great Britain-1
Israel-1
Slovenia-1
Romania-1
Sweden-1
Slovakia-1
Poland-1
Chile-1
Latvia-1
Ukraine-1

Dilettante
11-28-2009, 11:48 AM
Those two countries are ahead of the rest, honorable mention to my own country ARG, that I don't know how we still produce pros

Some Argentine players work a lot with Spanish coaches and/or assistants, and because language and certain closeness (not geographical, obviously, but personal) they have some opportunities to hang around Spanish system.

Anyway, there must be at least ONE -if not more- academy in Argentina that is making some things right. I know Argentines like to say there's not a system there, but if you look to Spain 30 years ago there wasn't a "system" either, but some academies that were working in the right path. They were not very known by then, but they existed and produced the Spanish tennis boom. Of course a great player can appear anywhere as an isolated phenomenon -and usually because they have some kind of early connection to tennis world. Rafael Nadal is not really a result of Spanish system, but an isolated phenomenon himself because his uncle was a tennis player and became his coach. By how many Nadals would you get that way? Not many if you ask me.

Argentina creates loads of good players for a country that doesn't have any kind of system. I think there's a big myth among Argentine fans about players coming out of nothing by talent alone (a myth very common in Argentina, it exists not only about tennis, but it's a myth anyway). But a country simply can't have 10 players in the top 100 without any kind of system, or without using academies from other countries at least.

papatenis
11-28-2009, 04:24 PM
10 char.....

raging
11-29-2009, 03:10 AM
I doubt this will help, but ....No one country has got the template for producing pros. A lot would like to have it but really national associations should concentrate on the base, get more people, kids and families playing and even competing.
From the base you can grow.
Spain and France are two countries that have a good tournament system for kids and for aspiring pros.Every other country is trying...even germany, australia, uk, usa,russia, china, etc etc. It is not a matter of money...you can just look at what has been wasted in...germany, australia, uk, usa..etc..etc.
It is how this money is effectively used to provide facilities that are fully utilized and that have purchasing power AND that produce high performance players. They are not really made though they have to be talented and motivated...Problem is they are hard to find or they don't know which academy, country to go to/ or what is best for their child.
The Academy side is another way by pooling all the motivated, talented players in one place. That grows a few pros especially if the coaching and entire set-up is professionally run and of good quality.
But there is no template for cutting tennis pros. The selection process is too tough for most people.

jwbarrientos
11-29-2009, 03:39 AM
In terms of having a structure which allows the vast majority of players to fulfil or exceed their potential then Spain and France are doing pretty well. The "system" that you talk of is simply that, an ability to put players in situations where they can thrive and achieve. A cohesive and unified approach to coaching and coach education helps too.

Womens tennis looks to be the former eastern bloc countries and I know China are plowing resources into womens tennis - but I havent worked in any of those countries so I don't know the "system" they have.

:shock: Ash, your post rocks, clear and solid, congrats.

jwbarrientos
11-29-2009, 03:55 AM
Some Argentine players work a lot with Spanish coaches and/or assistants, and because language and certain closeness (not geographical, obviously, but personal) they have some opportunities to hang around Spanish system.

Anyway, there must be at least ONE -if not more- academy in Argentina that is making some things right. I know Argentines like to say there's not a system there, but if you look to Spain 30 years ago there wasn't a "system" either, but some academies that were working in the right path. They were not very known by then, but they existed and produced the Spanish tennis boom. Of course a great player can appear anywhere as an isolated phenomenon -and usually because they have some kind of early connection to tennis world. Rafael Nadal is not really a result of Spanish system, but an isolated phenomenon himself because his uncle was a tennis player and became his coach. By how many Nadals would you get that way? Not many if you ask me.

Argentina creates loads of good players for a country that doesn't have any kind of system. I think there's a big myth among Argentine fans about players coming out of nothing by talent alone (a myth very common in Argentina, it exists not only about tennis, but it's a myth anyway). But a country simply can't have 10 players in the top 100 without any kind of system, or without using academies from other countries at least.

You right about how our own perception works, certainly we aren't USA, China, Germany, and even Brazil, all those countries have a system in many disciplines, in terms of team's sports we do almost right, but tennis is different.

Let me go with a short explanation, first tennis isn't cheap for common people, so you need the prospect (player detected in the early stages that have conditions), a little budget to develop technically, also need budget to make him/her compete internationally. So need talent + money + opportunities.

Countries with tennis tradition (ok, UK would be the exception) produces more players, here I was reading how silently ex players like Gabriela Sabatini, Guillermo Coria help the Argentine Tennis Association and player to encourage them (and/or put his/her own money) to allow.

For this reason, “our system” isn’t an institutional system is just a limited budget Association with traditional clubs developing players that are supported financially here and there.

Probably a closer person to our Natl Association could develop properly their efforts and limitations.

A side note would be Tandil, the Delpo’s town that produce (probably) most tennis players per capita than any other similar sized town, that city probably has something in the water and/or invisible system that really works (Delpo, Zabaleta, Monaco, Gonzalez and many others coming).

Ash_Smith
11-29-2009, 06:29 AM
:shock: Ash, your post rocks, clear and solid, congrats.

Thank, I do my best! :)

AM95
11-29-2009, 06:33 AM
I think Roger Federer is a rare breed. It wouldn't have mattered where he was from. Hell, he could have been from the UK and as long as a racquet found it's way into his hand he was destined for greatness.

if he was from the UK he'd become Andy Murray before Andy Murray was Andy Murray

BigSkyChamp
11-29-2009, 06:38 AM
Canada is BANGING out top touring pros... awwwww yeah!

No_tricks
11-29-2009, 08:38 AM
Barcelona organised the Olympics in 1992.
Didn't that give a boost to Spanish tennis?
Jordi Arrese was a finalist at the Olympics and there was Carlos Costa in 1992who was performing well and Sergi Bruguera winning Roland Garros in 1993 and 1994.
:confused:

stanfordtennis alum
11-29-2009, 08:41 AM
russia is the best...

larlarbd
11-29-2009, 08:46 AM
Lol, that's pretty funny. :D

1+

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Barca tennis
12-02-2009, 05:59 AM
Barcelona in Spain.
The place to be at the moment.
Barca:)

AAAA
12-02-2009, 06:42 AM
Barcelona organised the Olympics in 1992.
Didn't that give a boost to Spanish tennis?


That's true from what I read. When Spain was awarded the Olympics they invested substantial money in a national tennis programme which is still reaping fruit today. One thing I've noticed about the retired French and Spanish players is that they give back to the system by taking up advisory or coaching positions.

AAAA
12-02-2009, 06:49 AM
We have a serious problem. Haven't got anyone coming through. We've had the same mgmt @ tennis Australia for too long though people like Hewitt are starting to speak out against it now. Unfortunately Pollard got re elected but I'm hopeful his days will soon be over. Not that I have much hope in his putative replacement (one of the non descript Macs - I forget which one) but at this stage I'm willing to try for the devil I don't know.

I've always thought of Aussies as doers and straight talkers who see right through bs and ineffectual management. It surprises me if what you say is true and it's been allowed to continue.

edmondsm
12-02-2009, 07:19 AM
France seems to be able to produce a lot of guys who can make their livings at tennis, but none that can close the deal and win a slam.

Spain on the other hand has produced Moya, JCF, and of course Nadal, along with many other top professionals.

Dedans Penthouse
12-02-2009, 08:40 AM
France seems to be able to produce a lot of guys who can make their livings at tennis, but none that can close the deal and win a slam.

Spain on the other hand has produced Moya, JCF, and of course Nadal, along with many other top professionals.That's a good assessment edmondsm...the only thing I can come with is that since both camps are probably banging the same tennis groupies, the Frenchies must be nailing 'em longer and deeper into the night; meaning that lack of sleep equals 5-set Grand Slam crashes, i.e. Spanish = better groundstrokes; the Frenchies = better poundstrokes.

bladepdb
12-02-2009, 09:12 AM
It has to be Spain...even players like Safin, Safina, Murray, etc. have gone to train in Spain in their youth.

France is a close second.