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View Full Version : Will we ever see man as the greatest ever on every surface like Graf is among women?


grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 05:16 PM
On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time, but probably the greatest women player of all time on each individual surface as well. Will we ever see a man duplicate Graf's feat and become the greatest player ever not only overall, but on each individual surface as well.

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 05:18 PM
No. There is way to much competition in the men's game to allow that to happen.

sanchino
11-28-2009, 05:22 PM
I think there already have been men as great, they just had to deal with more competition. Even Graf was prone to loose on occasion to lesser players like Sanches-Vicario and Sabatini

Blinkism
11-28-2009, 05:22 PM
No, men's tennis is too deep for that to happen.

JeMar
11-28-2009, 05:26 PM
No, the men's game is much deeper.

flyinghippos101
11-28-2009, 05:31 PM
No, the men's field is deeper

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 05:32 PM
You have to take into consideration that the men are playing best of 5, and women are playing best of 3 at the slams. For the women, the slams are more like a vacation then a special test.

Dimitrov_Fan
11-28-2009, 05:33 PM
No, the men's field has too much depth.

TheFifthSet
11-28-2009, 05:35 PM
Nope.

And Navratilova was IMO a better grasscourter than Graf.

JeMar
11-28-2009, 05:37 PM
Nope.

And Navratilova was IMO a better grasscourter than Graf.

Oh no, you did not just go there.


Prepare yourself. Grafselesfan takes no prisoners.

Outbeyond
11-28-2009, 05:41 PM
You have to take into consideration that the men are playing best of 5, and women are playing best of 3 at the slams. For the women, the slams are more like a vacation then a special test.

That was especially mean....:)

Cantankersore
11-28-2009, 05:44 PM
Evert was better on clay... and Greg Norman.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 05:45 PM
Nope.

And Navratilova was IMO a better grasscourter than Graf.

I agree Navratilova was a great grasscourter. Certainly worthy of 2nd greatest of all time on that surface behind Graf. Graf leads 2-1 in Wimbledon finals proving her superiority and only didnt break Martina's record Wimbledon titles due to her injuries which prevented her from winning 9 or more, 97 and 98 for sure, and a contender in 99 and 2000 as well likely.

2nd greatest ever on clay behind Graf is either Seles, Connolly, or Evert. Henin could reach that point someday though.

2nd greatest ever on hard courts behind Graf is Serena, Evert, Court, or Connolly.

Camilio Pascual
11-28-2009, 05:46 PM
On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time,
What a cheap and dishonest way to present your argument.
No sale.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 05:48 PM
No. There is way to much competition in the men's game to allow that to happen.

Yeah you are probably right. It would take a field as weak as it was from 1998-2006 and a great player in their primes that whole time frame. Of course Federer was only in his prime a few of those years, and Sampras at the tail end of his prime for 1 or 2 of those. Since the best players to have all of their prime during that time frame were guys like Hewitt, Safin, or Kuerten you were never going to get someone fully capatilizing on it.

zagor
11-28-2009, 05:54 PM
Yeah you are probably right. It would take a field as weak as it was from 1998-2006 and a great player in their primes that whole time frame. Of course Federer was only in his prime a few of those years, and Sampras at the tail end of his prime for 1 or 2 of those. Since the best players to have all of their prime during that time frame were guys like Hewitt, Safin, or Kuerten you were never going to get someone fully capatilizing on it.

In 2005 and 2006 you already had Nadal at the FO who would be tough obstacle for any great HC/grasscourt player on clay.Men's and women's tennis is just different so I don't expect it to happen but chances are bigger that it happens in today's homogenizied conditions so you never know.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 05:58 PM
In 2005 and 2006 you already had Nadal at the FO who would be tough obstacle for any great HC/grasscourt player on clay.Men's and women's tennis is just different so I don't expect it to happen but chances are bigger that it happens in today's homogenizied conditions so you never know.

Yeah you are right. And Sampras from 1998-2000 was still nearly unbeatable at Wimbledon, despite being on a bit of decline overall. So maybe I should change that to 2001-2004.

cuddles26
11-28-2009, 06:01 PM
The overrated Graf cow is not the greatest ever on any surface, let alone all of them. Oh wait, she is the greatest ever on the following surfaces- being devoid of compassion or remorse, tax evasion and fraud, excuse making, and discrediting opponents. The greatest ever on all 4 major surfaces- Steffi Graf.

JeMar
11-28-2009, 06:02 PM
The overrated Graf cow is not the greatest ever on any surface, let alone all of them. Oh wait, she is the greatest ever on the following surfaces- being devoid of compassion or remorse, tax evasion and fraud, excuse making, and discrediting opponents. The greatest ever on all 4 major surfaces- Steffi Graf.

This was actually pretty funny. Well-written too.

Outbeyond
11-28-2009, 06:06 PM
This was actually pretty funny. Well-written too.

cuddles is growing on me.

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Yeah you are probably right. It would take a field as weak as it was from 1998-2006 and a great player in their primes that whole time frame. Of course Federer was only in his prime a few of those years, and Sampras at the tail end of his prime for 1 or 2 of those. Since the best players to have all of their prime during that time frame were guys like Hewitt, Safin, or Kuerten you were never going to get someone fully capatilizing on it.

+1..........

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 06:16 PM
That was especially mean....:)

And especially true....

MuseFan
11-28-2009, 06:18 PM
How can Steffi be the greatest on ALL surfaces when she didn't win the most French Opens(Evert with 7), Wimbledons(Martina with 9). Be thankful she won the most career slams(4). She's the greatest OVERALL women's player.

JeMar
11-28-2009, 06:20 PM
cuddles is growing on me.

You see, being devoid of compassion and remorse is actually two different surfaces. Being devoid of compassion is like European clay, while being devoid of remorse is more like Har-tru clay.

Al Czervik
11-28-2009, 06:22 PM
Graf wouldn't have been half the player if that nutcase hadn't put a shank in Seles' back.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 06:22 PM
On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time, but probably the greatest women player of all time on each individual surface as well. Will we ever see a man duplicate Graf's feat and become the greatest player ever not only overall, but on each individual surface as well.

The overrated Graf cow is not the greatest ever on any surface, let alone all of them. Oh wait, she is the greatest ever on the following surfaces- being devoid of compassion or remorse, tax evasion and fraud, excuse making, and discrediting opponents. The greatest ever on all 4 major surfaces- Steffi Graf.

Umm...I'm just gonna say no to the OP...and umm...I'm just gonna leave now. Have fun kids! :D

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:23 PM
How can Steffi be the greatest on ALL surfaces when she didn't win the most French Opens(Evert with 7), Wimbledons(Martina with 9). Be thankful she won the most career slams(4). She's the greatest OVERALL women's player.

The purpose of this thread is not to needlessly debate and discuss the obvious truths and facts about Graf, but given the example of how a female can be greatest ever on all surfaces, discuss if the possability exists for a man to do so anytime in the future. It seems most feel that is not doable for a man, which was the intent of this thread to discuss.

TheFifthSet
11-28-2009, 06:24 PM
I agree Navratilova was a great grasscourter. Certainly worthy of 2nd greatest of all time on that surface behind Graf. Graf leads 2-1 in Wimbledon finals proving her superiority and only didnt break Martina's record Wimbledon titles due to her injuries which prevented her from winning 9 or more, 97 and 98 for sure, and a contender in 99 and 2000 as well likely.

2nd greatest ever on clay behind Graf is either Seles, Connolly, or Evert. Henin could reach that point someday though.


Fair points, but remember that Navratilova was in her 30's when Steffi beat her at Wimby, and both matches were close . . . also, I don't see why we should reward her extra slams for being injured. Injuries are a part of the game.

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 06:25 PM
The purpose of this thread is not to needlessly debate and discuss the obvious truths and facts about Graf, but given the example of how a female can be greatest ever on all surfaces, discuss if the possability exists for a man to do so anytime in the future. It seems most feel that is doable for a man, which was the intent of this thread to discuss.

Are we reading the same thread?

MuseFan
11-28-2009, 06:27 PM
The purpose of this thread is not to needlessly debate and discuss the obvious truths and facts about Graf, but given the example of how a female can be greatest ever on all surfaces, discuss if the possability exists for a man to do so anytime in the future. It seems most feel that is doable for a man, which was the intent of this thread to discuss.

I don't think it's possible for a man to win the most GS at each of them. Because the skill set required to say win 8 Wimbledons takes away from the ability to win 7 French Opens. It's impossible.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:28 PM
Fair points, but remember that Navratilova was in her 30's when Steffi beat her at Wimby, and both matches were close . . . also, I don't see why we should reward her extra slams for being injured. Injuries are a part of the game.

I am aware of the age but Navratilova's reached all but 4 of her 31 slam finals from 1982-1990, and won all but 2 of her slam titles in these years (the 81 AO ended in early January). Thus that was her prime. Her prime was not the typical age of most players as she was a late bloomer. Most great women begin their prime as teenager and end it by their late 20s or sooner. Martina however didnt even join the tour until she 19. Her prime began in her mid 20s and extended to her early 30s. Also while the two Graf wins went 3 sets the final scorelines were not really that close: 5-7, 6-2, 6-1 in 88 with Martina losing 12 of the last 13 games and her last 6 service games; and 6-2, 6-7, 6-1 in 89.

Injuries are part of the game it is true. I am not saying Steffi should be considered as having more Wimbledon titles than Martina. She should be considered as having 7 and Martina as having 9 as is, and Martina fully deserves her record as having most Wimbledon titles. However injuries are more a reflection on luck rather than actual ability, so when evaluating actual ability, not strictly achievements, it makes sense to consider such things, atleast for me.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Are we reading the same thread?

Sorry a typo.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Fair points, but remember that Navratilova was in her 30's when Steffi beat her at Wimby, and both matches were close . . . also, I don't see why we should reward her extra slams for being injured. Injuries are a part of the game.

Hmm...interesting point.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't think it's possible for a man to win the most GS at each of them. Because the skill set required to say win 8 Wimbledons takes away from the ability to win 7 French Opens. It's impossible.

The funny thing is Borg had that kind of extreme dominance on grass and clay. Granted he isnt considered the greatest grass courter of all time by many, but had he continued he might have been considered the greatest ever on both surfaces (although far from certain with McEnroe now a problem). Yet obviously he doesnt even scrape the surface of the greatest hard court players of all time, so the fulfillment of being the greatest ever on each surface was never possible for him, but he showed dominance of atleast the extremes of clay and grass is possible for the right person. Even easier perhaps in the future now with the slowed down grass, as long as there arent two players like Federer or Nadal stopping each other, or if that player in the future is so formidable they are able to overcome even that type of foe.

markwillplay
11-28-2009, 06:32 PM
wow, I saw Graph all the time growing up..I remember when Seles came along....Graph was overmatched in every way. Hate to tell you, as good as Graph was, Seles owned her in the big matches in both of their primes. Sorry.

sanchino
11-28-2009, 06:33 PM
I don't think it's possible for a man to win the most GS at each of them. Because the skill set required to say win 8 Wimbledons takes away from the ability to win 7 French Opens. It's impossible.

It was a great accomplishment thet Bjorn Borg won 6 French and 5 Wimbledon titles. If he had not walked away from the game when he did, he may have won more. He certainly could have been a contender at those events for a few more years.

edmondsm
11-28-2009, 06:33 PM
I am aware of the age but Navratilova's reached all but 4 of her 31 slam finals from 1982-1990, and won all but 2 of her slam titles in these years (the 81 AO ended in early January). Thus that was her prime. Her prime was not the typical age of most players as she was a late bloomer. Most great women begin their prime as teenager and end it by their late 20s or sooner. Martina however didnt even join the tour until she 19. Her prime began in her mid 20s and extended to her early 30s. Also while the two Graf wins went 3 sets the final scorelines were not really that close: 5-7, 6-2, 6-1 in 88 with Martina losing 12 of the last 13 games and her last 6 service games; and 6-2, 6-7, 6-1 in 89.

Injuries are part of the game it is true. I am not saying Steffi should be considered as having more Wimbledon titles than Martina. She should be considered as having 7 and Martina as having 9 as is, and Martina fully deserves her record as having most Wimbledon titles. However injuries are more a reflection on luck rather than actual ability, so when evaluating actual ability, not strictly achievements, it makes sense to consider such things, atleast for me.

Just to confirm. Are you saying Graf is the greatest on every surface, or the greatest all-surface player?

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:34 PM
wow, I saw Graph all the time growing up..I remember when Seles came along....Graph was overmatched in every way. Hate to tell you, as good as Graph was, Seles owned her in the big matches in both of their primes. Sorry.

I am a big fan of both Graf and Seles. However Graf leads 10-5 head to head and 6-3 in slams. Seles has never destroyed Graf in a match, while Graf has destroyed Seles in matches on several occasions. Seles has never beaten Graf on a medium or faster surface, the only surfaces she has beaten her are rebound ace and clay. The 2 times she played Graf on grass she averaged 1 game per the 2 matches and 4 sets. Graf has beaten Graf on all surfaces. In Seles's best year ever she squeeked past Graf 10-8 in the final set on her own best surface and Graf's worst, and lost 6-2, 6-1 on Graf's best surface and her own worst. Even while dominating the womens game she never could dominate Graf head to head, the way Nadal was able to do to Federer for years. The stabbing was a shame as Monica was certainly on her way to a much higher place in tennis history than she currently occupies, and would have continued a great rivalry with Graf, but without a doubt Graf is still the superior player.

sanchino
11-28-2009, 06:34 PM
wow, I saw Graph all the time growing up..I remember when Seles came along....Graph was overmatched in every way. Hate to tell you, as good as Graph was, Seles owned her in the big matches in both of their primes. Sorry.

I agree with that. I think that guy that stabbed Seles thought so too.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 06:35 PM
Just to confirm. Are you saying Graf is the greatest on every surface, or the greatest all-surface player?

The greatest of all time on every surface amongst the women IMO.

darthpwner
11-28-2009, 06:36 PM
You can't compare men and women. Men are too good.

tudwell
11-28-2009, 06:40 PM
I don't see any reason something like that couldn't happen. It just hasn't yet.

Camilio Pascual
11-28-2009, 06:48 PM
However injuries are more a reflection on luck rather than actual ability, so when evaluating actual ability, not strictly achievements, it makes sense to consider such things, atleast for me.
You really can't prove that and I can make a good argument that may not be true.
There are things that can be done to prevent injuries concerning:
technique
conditioning
hydration
rest
not overplaying
An inability to do these things as well as another player will put one at greater risk of injury.

hewittboy
11-28-2009, 07:32 PM
Such an egotistical thread.

ninman
11-28-2009, 08:03 PM
I don't see any reason something like that couldn't happen. It just hasn't yet.

Federer was pretty unlucky not to do it already. Only Nadal stopped him from dominating every surface.

Agassifan
11-28-2009, 08:06 PM
If it wasn't for Nadal, fed would've had like 20+ slams, 5 french opens and 3 calendar slams. It would've been hard to argue Graf > Fed in that scenario. Fed is a once in a lifetime talent. So who knows..

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Federer was pretty unlucky not to do it already. Only Nadal stopped him from dominating every surface.

Even if he won 5 straight French Opens without Nadal though I dont think he would be considered the greatest ever on that surface as it is just clear ability wise he isnt that calibre on clay. Plus without Nadal his competition looking at who is remaining wouldnt be considered that strong on clay. Plus he has had losses in big Masters events on clay the last 5 years to guys like Volandri, Stepanek, Wawrinka. He has struggled alot at the French with guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Monfils, and others. So he wouldnt be considered the greatest ever on clay even without Nadal, no way.

JeMar
11-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Even if he won 5 straight French Opens without Nadal though I dont think he would be considered the greatest ever on that surface as it is just clear ability wise he isnt that calibre on clay. Plus without Nadal his competition looking at who is remaining wouldnt be considered that strong on clay. Plus he has had losses in big Masters events on clay the last 5 years to guys like Volandri, Stepanek, Wawrinka. He has struggled alot at the French with guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Monfils, and others. So he wouldnt be considered the greatest ever on clay even without Nadal, no way.

Your argument works against Graf on clay and on grass. She's better on clay than Martina, and she's better on grass than Evert, but she's not as good as either of them on their best surface, no matter what the records might say.

I don't get the point of this thread, it's basic premise is flawed and extremely short-sighted and biased.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 08:22 PM
Your argument works against Graf on clay and on grass. She's better on clay than Martina, and she's better on grass than Evert, but she's not as good as either of them on their best surface, no matter what the records might say.

I don't get the point of this thread, it's basic premise is flawed and extremely short-sighted and biased.

What did what I say have to do with Graf. Graf ability wise can compare favorably to any women in history on any surface. Federer ability wise, dominance wise, overall performance wise, wouldnt compare at all to say Borg on clay even if Nadal never existed, with the reasons I cited serving as obvious proof of that. His record overall wouldnt be as good on clay either since unlike Nadal and Borg he would not have completely dominated events like Rome and Monte Carlo even without Nadal around as his losses I mentioned prove.

Anyway since you bring it up with Graf it is just the opposite of what you are saying. Her record isnt as great as Navratilova on grass because of injuries denying her an additional 2 or more Wimbledon titles at the end of her career, but ability wise IMO she is every bit as great or a little better. Her record isnt as great as Evert on clay, but IMO she would beat Evert on clay with both in their primes, and she just faced a many times tougher clay court field than Evert (the 70s fields on clay were the biggest joke ever). Her record is the greatest ever overall, and the greatest overall on hard courts. So if it were just based on achievements she would be merely the greatest women player of all time, greatest ever on hard courts, and 2nd greatest ever on clay behind Evert, and 2nd greatest ever on grass behind Martina. However her actual ability goes beyond her achievements which do not do full justice to her ability, and thus she is also the greastest ever on grass and clay inspite of only the 2nd greatest achievements ever on those 2 surfaces.

cuddles26
11-28-2009, 08:28 PM
This thread is ********. It is nothing more than an excuse for the OP to pimp up her hero Steffi Graf to the heavens, while pretending to be starting an objective topic on the current mens game.

Graf fans are even more arrogant than Federer or Nadal fans. It isnt even good enough to be considered the greatest ever overall and maybe the greatest ever on 1 or 2 of the 3 or 4 surfaces as most consider her (already way overrated I think), but no she has to be the greatest ever on ever single surface too. Not only that, the undisputed greatest ever on every single surface, and shame on anyone who even considers anyone else. Blech, if grafselesfan is an example of typical Graf fans thank goodness she is retired, as otherwise they would be swarming this forum today and they would even make *******s look humble.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 08:32 PM
http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/2b905b61651f3a85ea0cc92f96a49517.jpg

TMF
11-28-2009, 08:40 PM
If Graf had to played 5 set format, she would not win 22 GS b/c is much brutal than a 3 set format. Having to win a total of 21 sets in 7 matches is much tougher to overcome. That's what separate between the men and the boys.

Federer 15 GS >> Graf 22 GS.
Sampras 286 weeks at #1 >> Graf 377 weeks.

LDVTennis
11-28-2009, 08:41 PM
The overrated Graf cow is not...

I bet you were the "best" in your class... :razz:

JeMar
11-28-2009, 08:44 PM
On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time, but probably the greatest women player of all time on each individual surface as well. Will we ever see a man duplicate Graf's feat and become the greatest player ever not only overall, but on each individual surface as well.

This thread is ********. It is nothing more than an excuse for the OP to pimp up her hero Steffi Graf to the heavens, while pretending to be starting an objective topic on the current mens game.

Graf fans are even more arrogant than Federer or Nadal fans. It isnt even good enough to be considered the greatest ever overall and maybe the greatest ever on 1 or 2 of the 3 or 4 surfaces as most consider her (already way overrated I think), but no she has to be the greatest ever on ever single surface too. Not only that, the undisputed greatest ever on every single surface, and shame on anyone who even considers anyone else. Blech, if grafselesfan is an example of typical Graf fans thank goodness she is retired, as otherwise they would be swarming this forum today and they would even make *******s look humble.

http://www.takkle.com/thumbs/scale/max/468x351/photofiles/2007/07/1121/91886.jpg

LDVTennis
11-28-2009, 08:47 PM
wow, I saw Graph all the time growing up..I remember when Seles came along....Graph was overmatched in every way. Hate to tell you, as good as Graph was, Seles owned her in the big matches in both of their primes. Sorry.

That Wimbledon match was pretty big. If Seles had won Wimbledon in 1992, she probably would have completed a calendar-year Grand Slam.

Remind me what happened. Oh yeah. Sabatini didn't help Seles out by beating Steffi in the semi's. Faced with the task of having to beat Steffi herself on a fast surface, Seles was thrashed.

President of Serve/Volley
11-28-2009, 08:59 PM
Pete Sampras-Roger Federer have done it on grass...

I say if you combine Sampras and Federer skills, you would have THE greatest surface player of all time.

grafselesfan
11-28-2009, 09:12 PM
If Graf had to played 5 set format, she would not win 22 GS b/c is much brutal than a 3 set format. Having to win a total of 21 sets in 7 matches is much tougher to overcome. That's what separate between the men and the boys.

Federer 15 GS >> Graf 22 GS.
Sampras 286 weeks at #1 >> Graf 377 weeks.

Graf along with Navratilova is the fittest player in womens tennis. Best of 5 format would favor her over the other women. She would have won even more than 22 slams under that format. Sanchez Vicario and Navratilova are her only contemporary rivals who could hang with her in a best 3 of 5 final. So lets first generously assume Sanchez and Navratilova would still have won all the slam finals they won over Graf. Now looking at the players who beat her in slam finals Seles, Sabatini, and Davenport would have had to win in 3 straight sets, as none of those women are fit or athletic enough to hang with Graf in 5 or probably even 4 set final. Beating Graf in 3 straight sets is extemely unlikely, especialy as none of those women killed Graf in the finals they won over her. So Graf proabably gains atleast 4 or 5 more slams there already. That is before getting into some of the times she was eliminated by far less fit, athletic, or mentally tough women who likely couldnt have taken her out in a best 3 of 5- Garrison in the 1990 Wimbledon semis, Novotna in the 1991 Australian Open semis (mostly mental in her case), a 34 year old Navratilova in the 1991 U.S Open semis, McNeil at Wimbledon 94, and that is another possible up to 4 slams for Steffi in a best of 5 format. Under the best of 5 format men play under Graf probably wins about 30 slams instead of 22, even with the injuries that shortened her playing prime and career by several years.

kishnabe
11-28-2009, 09:33 PM
This thread is ********. It is nothing more than an excuse for the OP to pimp up her hero Steffi Graf to the heavens, while pretending to be starting an objective topic on the current mens game.

Graf fans are even more arrogant than Federer or Nadal fans. It isnt even good enough to be considered the greatest ever overall and maybe the greatest ever on 1 or 2 of the 3 or 4 surfaces as most consider her (already way overrated I think), but no she has to be the greatest ever on ever single surface too. Not only that, the undisputed greatest ever on every single surface, and shame on anyone who even considers anyone else. Blech, if grafselesfan is an example of typical Graf fans thank goodness she is retired, as otherwise they would be swarming this forum today and they would even make *******s look humble.

Stop saying that the OP is trying to Pimp up Steffi Graf when You are Doing Exactly the same thing in a different Thread. To be honest Graf is a better player than Serena will ever be. Sorry if the truth hurts but you have to admit Serena does not have 20 slams plus yet.

qindarka
11-28-2009, 09:55 PM
Can cuddles please stop his crusade of madness that is spreading all around the boards?

lawrence
11-28-2009, 10:46 PM
On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time, but probably the greatest women player of all time on each individual surface as well. Will we ever see a man duplicate Graf's feat and become the greatest player ever not only overall, but on each individual surface as well.

haha you're going to hate me for saying this, but ACHIEVEMENT-wise, if what happened to Seles had happened to Nadal, the fedex would have a very similar resume to graf (he already has the grass and hc but no clay to boot)
for sure he wouldn't be the clay GOAT, but he would be the greatest clay courter of his generation and have calendar slams to back it up

but when talking about just the way it is, i dont think so. its kind of like lavers calendar slams, it's almost impossible to be that far ahead of your peers in the mens game.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
11-28-2009, 10:49 PM
Then again in the mens game, they have yet to find a crazed fan to literally stab his closest rival in the back. *Just saying*

iamke55
11-28-2009, 10:53 PM
Pete Sampras-Roger Federer have done it on grass...

I say if you combine Sampras and Federer skills, you would have THE greatest surface player of all time.

Neither of them have a backhand so it would be better to combine Sampras with Nadal, or Federer with Nalbandian.

egn
11-28-2009, 11:12 PM
Injuries or not Graf did not break Martina's record therefore Martina is the better grass court player. Please save the she is 2-1 against Martina in wimbledon finals.. She did not play Martina circa 83-85. She got a prime but not peak Martina while Graf was very well in 88-90 playing the best tennis of her life. Besides if we are judging on injuries case can be made Seles is the greatest clay courter on time had she not had a knife thrusted into her back. The thing about Graf is although she is not the best on every surface she is damn well top 3 if not top 2 on every single on of them, something Chris Evert, Navratilova, Court, Serena etc. can not claim.

jamesblakefan#1
11-28-2009, 11:25 PM
haha you're going to hate me for saying this, but ACHIEVEMENT-wise, if what happened to Seles had happened to Nadal, the fedex would have a very similar resume to graf (he already has the grass and hc but no clay to boot)
for sure he wouldn't be the clay GOAT, but he would be the greatest clay courter of his generation and have calendar slams to back it up

but when talking about just the way it is, i dont think so. its kind of like lavers calendar slams, it's almost impossible to be that far ahead of your peers in the mens game.

Then again in the mens game, they have yet to find a crazed fan to literally stab his closest rival in the back. *Just saying*

True, I'm sure if Federer had went all Tonya Harding on Nadal's knees back in 2005, he'd have 4 FO titles right now and be undisputed GOAT.

TMF
11-29-2009, 10:21 AM
Graf along with Navratilova is the fittest player in womens tennis. Best of 5 format would favor her over the other women. She would have won even more than 22 slams under that format. Sanchez Vicario and Navratilova are her only contemporary rivals who could hang with her in a best 3 of 5 final. So lets first generously assume Sanchez and Navratilova would still have won all the slam finals they won over Graf. Now looking at the players who beat her in slam finals Seles, Sabatini, and Davenport would have had to win in 3 straight sets, as none of those women are fit or athletic enough to hang with Graf in 5 or probably even 4 set final. Beating Graf in 3 straight sets is extemely unlikely, especialy as none of those women killed Graf in the finals they won over her. So Graf proabably gains atleast 4 or 5 more slams there already. That is before getting into some of the times she was eliminated by far less fit, athletic, or mentally tough women who likely couldnt have taken her out in a best 3 of 5- Garrison in the 1990 Wimbledon semis, Novotna in the 1991 Australian Open semis (mostly mental in her case), a 34 year old Navratilova in the 1991 U.S Open semis, McNeil at Wimbledon 94, and that is another possible up to 4 slams for Steffi in a best of 5 format. Under the best of 5 format men play under Graf probably wins about 30 slams instead of 22, even with the injuries that shortened her playing prime and career by several years.

Playing more tennis put more wear and tear on the body. Graf had injury in her career, and playing 5 sets she's even more vulnerable. Using your logic about how fit Graf is, then Graf would of win more than 22 slams if there was a 7 set format, which is very unlikely. Even if women play 5 setter, there wouldn't be that much taxing on the body b/c its' not as physically demanding as the men. Having to win 27 sets is a lot harder than 21. Pete, Fed and Rafa went thru war, they had to play some 5 hrs matches, while hardly been push to this extreme physically. Which explain men has fewer years in their prime years than women. Understood?

Also, men's tennis has more weapons than women, which they get eliminated much easier. Just looking at the serving department. In mens' tennis, a great server has the huge advantage when serving. An average player with great serve can beat the elite player. But during Graf's heyday, no player can put pressure on Graf b/c women's serve is NOT a weapon. They don't serve ace at all, and don't get any free points. See SW19 this year, Roddick got aced 50 times, not to mention other unreturned served. When did Graf ever had to deal with great server humbled her? NONE!...b/c there isn't any. Players today are so strong they can hit winners behind the baseline, which any players are at constant pressure and can lose. How many players can during Graf's time has such leathal groundstrokes from the baseline that can win with just one swing? Again, NONE! Now you understand player like Federer had to go through so many obstacles than Graf?

Lastly, Graf had no Seles, but Fed had Rafa. If the situation was reverse, Federer could have MORE slams than Graf. But you already knew that.:)

TheChosenOne
11-29-2009, 03:22 PM
There actually should be a better chance of a player in today's men's game considering the slowing, and homogenization of both surfaces and game (baseline bashing) to actually make this point. You can win over countless slams today playing a primarily baseline game. Years ago good luck. Very difficult to play a clay court style for instance of the old grounds of wimbeldon much less win many slams at both. Too difficult due to the circumstances

markwillplay
11-29-2009, 04:27 PM
maybe their total was 10 and 5 but you are in complete denial if you think that graph was beating seles in seles's prime...not true. She was overpowered. I guess my windo of memory is a small wondow of just a couple of years, I am not considering any match after the stabbing. I just remember when seles came on the scene and started beating graph..I loved graph and sis not like seles (hated that grunt) but it seemed like every big match they played in a slam, Seles won and graph had no answer. How many slams did graph win before seles and after the stabbing and how many did she win in the couplde of years that seles was in her prime?