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View Full Version : Ratings starting to trickle out...


nkbond
11-29-2009, 12:23 PM
41 year-end 12/31/2009 ratings are posted in Southern Section (Alabama District) from the facility where I play.

nkbond
11-29-2009, 12:27 PM
up to 52...makes you think someone is entering these ratings by hand...weird.

JoelDali
11-29-2009, 12:32 PM
Wilbur and I entering them all in now, we should be done by 8 in time for Cops.

nkbond
11-29-2009, 12:34 PM
sweet, put me down for 4.0 and I'm all good!

JoelDali
11-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Sorry buddy, Wilbur here has seen your serve and he says you're a strong 4.5.

GeoffB
11-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Mine is posted. Bumped up to a 4.0. I'm in norcal.

nkbond
11-29-2009, 02:15 PM
Sorry buddy, Wilbur here has seen your serve and he says you're a strong 4.5.

Wilbur needs new glasses...maintained my early-start bumpage down to 4.0, and, since I'm recovering from an ACLr, I could not be more happy! Great end to the holiday weekend for this camper.

GMay
11-29-2009, 02:43 PM
My husband's rating is posted but not mine. We are both 3.0 so they must be doing it by rating and gender. He maintained his 3.0 rating. Still waiting for mine.

JavierLW
11-29-2009, 03:22 PM
2 out of the 15 players on my team were updated so far. (both stayed at 3.5 including myself, both benchmarks)

Weird how it works sometimes.....

JavierLW
11-29-2009, 03:28 PM
I figured out the pattern.

Everyone in our summer league that's had their rating changed was also in a couple winter leagues (that are non-progressive).

Cindysphinx
11-29-2009, 03:47 PM
Yep, I have one player who moved up. She is a transplant from Atlanta. She moved from 3.5 to 4.0. Shouldn't affect our 7.5 combo team much because I already use her as a 4.0 for all practical purposes.

Interestingly, her last name is very similar to mine. It looks like I've been passed over. Again.

10sguy
11-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Mine is posted. Bumped up to a 4.0. I'm in norcal.

Me too (gulp)!

fe6250
11-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Pretty much done here now. My entire 3.5 team got bumped to 4.0. Wow!

robby c
11-29-2009, 03:56 PM
It's a Tidal Wave raising all boats.
In my league-Upstate South Carolina- mid level as well as the stronger players were bumped.
I'm 4.0.
Robby C

86golf
11-29-2009, 03:56 PM
From our club in Charlotte, the biggest movement was from 3.5 - 4.0. about 26 of 30 guys were bumped up. We only had 3 bump from 4.0 to 4.5 out of of 20. We may have five 4.0 teams in the spring...crazy

PatrickB
11-29-2009, 04:13 PM
Still trickling in for southwest section, though I was happy to see that I got bumped to 3.5. :)

JLyon
11-29-2009, 04:49 PM
somehow got a bump to 5.0, going 2-1 at 4.5 and 1-2 at 5.0

CrispyFritters
11-29-2009, 04:55 PM
How are you checking these early ratings? link?

Jim A
11-29-2009, 04:57 PM
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.asp

Just enter the name

I just checked and got my bump :) feel like I'm no longer a rookie

michael_1265
11-29-2009, 06:46 PM
Lost three guys (all of whom were less than .500 W/L) from my 3.0 team that was 2-7 last year.

Crap.

Jim A
11-29-2009, 06:50 PM
that seems to be par for the course, 16 of the 23 3.0's I beat last year were bumped up to 3.5

Blask
11-29-2009, 07:03 PM
unbelievable how many people they are moving up. A lot of guys on my team who I thought might get moved down actually got bumped up. Crazy

bpp
11-29-2009, 07:10 PM
I got bumped as well. I was expecting it.

Blade0324
11-29-2009, 07:13 PM
5 of my 11 on my team got the bump from 3.5 to 4.0 and i went to 4.5, gulp.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2009, 07:31 PM
OK, I am stoked!

My top women didn't get moved up. All of the women who have been handing me my head got moved up to 4.0.

Maybe now I can win a match?

Cindy -- who just got crushed by a new 3.5 woman and a new 4.5 guy in 7.0 mixed

bpp
11-29-2009, 07:54 PM
Half of our 3.5 team got bumped. Everyone who should have gotten bumped did, along with all the borderline players and 2-3 players that should not have been bumped. Hopefully those 2-3 players can appeal because I dont think they belong at 4.0.

kylebarendrick
11-29-2009, 09:42 PM
I've gotten my bump to 4.0 - looking forward to playing at a new level. About 2/3 of my 3.5 team was also bumped.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2009, 11:08 PM
OK, it's not just in my head. I have actual data to prove that I am better than my miserable 2009 record shows.

I lost 18 ladies 3.4 or 4.0 matches in 2009. In 14 cases, one or both opponents were already 4.0 or were just bumped to 4.0. I had just two losses to teams where all players were 3.5s (both in 3rd set tiebreaks), and one 7.5 combo tiebreak loss where both teams were 7.5. I also had two wins over teams where one player was just bumped to 4.0.

Well, that makes me feel a bit better about things. In this new rating regime, I am definitely on the high end of 3.5. Sweet!

I feel like I have been sitting in a massive 3.5 traffic jam for two years, and finally the bottleneck is starting to clear out.

OrangePower
11-29-2009, 11:18 PM
Absolutely crazy amount of people bumped up. I got bumped to 4.5 and was expecting it, but more than half of my 4.0 team also got bumped which is totally unexpected. Captains everywhere are tearing their hair out as we speak... :twisted:

Cindysphinx
11-29-2009, 11:25 PM
Not all captains.

Some of us are thrilled that we actually have a shot now. Dynasties are crumbling all around me.

Huzzah!!

lagniappe12
11-30-2009, 01:34 AM
I got bumped to 3.0 after only two USTA matches ever...

bleach
11-30-2009, 04:02 AM
I got bumped to 4.0. 11 of 14 on my team were bumped and benchmarked, so no appeal!

atatu
11-30-2009, 04:49 AM
There were 12 guys in Austin bumped from 4.5 to 5.0, or those twelve I would say only three were surprises. Still, that is a higher percentage of guys getting bumped than usual.

JRstriker12
11-30-2009, 04:52 AM
Bumped to 4.0...... last night. 8)

herrburgess
11-30-2009, 05:04 AM
I got the dreaded double-bump (from 2.5 to 3.5). Now I can't play 2.5 in January at combo Sectionals. Will instead have to play at 3.0 with the old 2.5s...No appeal either, as it's a B rating.

mirnyifan
11-30-2009, 05:04 AM
They bumped a ton of people in Tennessee, especially in 3.5 and 4.0!!!

Jim A
11-30-2009, 05:07 AM
That is the correction though, especially at 3.0/3.5 where they are bumping more up to the next level to get to what the USTA believes is the correct rated player at the proper level

Am I surprised at some of the people who were bumped, of course. However I think its better for the game to have 3.0 (for men at least) be more like a 2.5 since 2.5 is virtually non-existent in most cases

bpp
11-30-2009, 05:38 AM
I appealed my rating and they denied it. I actually think this is a good thing as I think this puts a lot of people more in line with what their actual rating should be. I just feel sorry for some like on my team who had bad losing records in doubles but got bumped because of one or two strong matches when paired with a strong player.

raiden031
11-30-2009, 05:50 AM
I actually think this is a good thing as I think this puts a lot of people more in line with what their actual rating should be.

I'm not sure what to make of it. Roughly 70 men in my league got moved from 3.5 to 4.0. I actually thought that I was the perfect example of a border-level player and now there are dozens of new people who I would easily beat in singles that are now at 4.0 as well. This definitely re-defines the 4.0 level, that is for sure. For all the players that got moved up to 4.0, it doesn't seem like enough got moved out of 4.0. So now there are still alot of strong players at 4.0 and also alot of significantly weak players.

Cindysphinx
11-30-2009, 05:52 AM
I'm not sure what to make of it. Roughly 70 men in my league got moved from 3.5 to 4.0. I actually thought that I was the perfect example of a border-level player and now there are dozens of new people who I would easily beat in singles that are now at 4.0 as well. This definitely re-defines the 4.0 level, that is for sure. For all the players that got moved up to 4.0, it doesn't seem like enough got moved out of 4.0. So now there are still alot of strong players at 4.0 and also alot of significantly weak players.

That's my feeling too, Raiden. Now there are a whole bunch of 3.5 women I can beat, and I'm not seeing too many 3.5 names out there that strike fear into my heart.

Ironically, relatively few women on my 3.5 team that went to sectionals moved up. Weird.

mirnyifan
11-30-2009, 05:54 AM
I think this is going to cause a lot of people (ahem... like team captains) to have a complete mind shift in the way they perceive ratings. I mean it's like last year's 3.0 level is now 3.5, 3.5 is now 4.0 and so on... I think it's great!

raiden031
11-30-2009, 05:54 AM
That's my feeling too, Raiden. Now there are a whole bunch of 3.5 women I can beat, and I'm not seeing too many 3.5 names out there that strike fear into my heart.

Ironically, relatively few women on my 3.5 team that went to sectionals moved up. Weird.

One thing that makes me feel good is that like 4 out of 8 guys who beat me in singles got moved up to 4.5.

86golf
11-30-2009, 05:59 AM
Appeals are being granted. I saw a rumor that if you played 5 matches you wouldn't be allowed to appeal, but that isn't true. Several guys from my team won their appeal, unfortunately I wasn't one of them.

Put your ego aside and appeal. Our pro is recommending that everyone appeal. If you get denied, then you are likely where you should be, however I agree that there will be more disparity at the 4.0 level now.

raiden031
11-30-2009, 06:02 AM
Appeals are being granted. I saw a rumor that if you played 5 matches you wouldn't be allowed to appeal, but that isn't true. Several guys from my team won their appeal, unfortunately I wasn't one of them.

Put your ego aside and appeal. Our pro is recommending that everyone appeal. If you get denied, then you are likely where you should be, however I agree that there will be more disparity at the 4.0 level now.

Appealing is for cowards.

The rule is something like if you played 6 or more matches that count towards your DNTRP. Some matches against self-rated players do not count towards your DNTRP, which might explain why some of your teammates won their appeals.

Cindysphinx
11-30-2009, 06:15 AM
Appealing is for cowards.

The rule is something like if you played 6 or more matches that count towards your DNTRP. Some matches against self-rated players do not count towards your DNTRP, which might explain why some of your teammates won their appeals.

Correction: Appeals are for cowards, weaklings and girly-men.

mirnyifan
11-30-2009, 06:16 AM
I agree Raiden. Appealing down is for cowards!

86golf
11-30-2009, 06:28 AM
I agree Raiden. Appealing down is for cowards!

Well, I'll disagree and here is the reality. Come February, I'll have 50 guys wanting to play in the spring. A bunch of them will be 4.0 bump ups with losing records at the 3.5 level. I'm sorry but it will be difficult to get them on teams with legit 4.0's. Plus, we don't have the courts to support 4 teams. There are still a lot of strong 4.0's that didn't get bumped that will destroy these borderline players.

schap02
11-30-2009, 06:31 AM
I know USTA was trying to level out the field a bit but does anyone else feel that they moved WAY too many guys into 4.0 and way too many to 4.5 - most of the 5.0's I know didn't get bumped and it's a little odd that I could be playing them on mixed and combo teams, I truly think that USTA needed more teams at higher levels??

Anyone else similar thoughts?

raiden031
11-30-2009, 06:31 AM
Well, I'll disagree and here is the reality. Come February, I'll have 50 guys wanting to play in the spring. A bunch of them will be 4.0 bump ups with losing records at the 3.5 level. I'm sorry but it will be difficult to get them on teams with legit 4.0's. Plus, we don't have the courts to support 4 teams. There are still a lot of strong 4.0's that didn't get bumped that will destroy these borderline players.

With this many new players at 4.0, there will be new teams created to accomodate them. How can 3.5 have the courts to accomodate them but not 4.0?

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 06:37 AM
Haha... my 2.5 parter that I won 6.5 VA Championships with is now a 3.5!

mirnyifan
11-30-2009, 06:45 AM
Well, I'll disagree and here is the reality. Come February, I'll have 50 guys wanting to play in the spring. A bunch of them will be 4.0 bump ups with losing records at the 3.5 level. I'm sorry but it will be difficult to get them on teams with legit 4.0's. Plus, we don't have the courts to support 4 teams. There are still a lot of strong 4.0's that didn't get bumped that will destroy these borderline players.

I agree with you in the short term. This spring will probably be difficult. But in the longer term, probably the spring of 2011, I think things will begin to sort themselves out. A lot of those "strong 4.0's" probably won't be playing 4.0 in 2011. I'm sorry y'all will have difficulty with having enough courts... I truly am. But still, I have to think that your current predicament is better than not having enough players to field some good local competition.

JRstriker12
11-30-2009, 07:03 AM
Appeals are being granted. I saw a rumor that if you played 5 matches you wouldn't be allowed to appeal, but that isn't true. Several guys from my team won their appeal, unfortunately I wasn't one of them.

Put your ego aside and appeal. Our pro is recommending that everyone appeal. If you get denied, then you are likely where you should be, however I agree that there will be more disparity at the 4.0 level now.

Why is your pro recommending that everyone appeal??? Does he have some interest in keeping certain players at a lower level to stack his team (knowing that most of the strong players will have been moved up)??? I can see if he recommended that SOME people appeal based on his perception of their level of play, but why make the recommendation to "everyone" as you put it?

I'm sort of excited to be bumped up - in fact, reaching 4.0 has been a goal of mine. I may get thumped, but that's fine with me, I'm looking for new challenges and to improve my game. In fact, I've been playing 8.0 mixed and it's been a lot of fun playing against two 4.0's or even a 4.5 guy and a 3.5 woman. In spite the fact that I was a 3.5 playing with a 4.5 woman, we even managed to get some wins under our belts.

As for most players - they should take the bump and see how it shakes out over the year. If they don't do well, they'll get dropped.

Cindysphinx
11-30-2009, 07:05 AM
Well, I'll disagree and here is the reality. Come February, I'll have 50 guys wanting to play in the spring. A bunch of them will be 4.0 bump ups with losing records at the 3.5 level. I'm sorry but it will be difficult to get them on teams with legit 4.0's. Plus, we don't have the courts to support 4 teams. There are still a lot of strong 4.0's that didn't get bumped that will destroy these borderline players.

The reality is that there will be a lot of shuffling at 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5. I predict everyone will have a soft landing. For every 3.5 woman who moved to 4.0, there is now a slot for a 3.0 who moved to 3.5. There will be lots of new teams created at the higher levels.

But the reality is also that there will be a lot more playing opportunities for those at the higher levels, like 4.5. Previously, it was hard to have enough 4.5s in some areas to have a decent league.

Also, I heartily applaud bringing the levels more in line with the description. The descriptions had become a joke.

Yes, there will be some heartache. My 7.0 mixed team now cannot stay together unless some major surgery takes place. Maybe the answer is to just move en masse to 8.0. We would get crushed often, but we could still beat the 7.0 teams who make the same decision to move up.

Ugh. 8.0 mixed. I am *so* not ready for 8.0 mixed . . . .

86golf
11-30-2009, 07:08 AM
With this many new players at 4.0, there will be new teams created to accomodate them. How can 3.5 have the courts to accomodate them but not 4.0?

We'll have two 3.5 teams as usual(one away and one home each week), but now we will need four 4.0 teams and we only have 8 available courts (10 plus two teaching courts). So we would need to stagger lines which no one likes to do. We could likely do 3 teams, so if some of these guys win appeals it would be better to have three 3.5 teams and three 4.0 teams.

kylebarendrick
11-30-2009, 07:46 AM
Let's see... three 3.5 teams and three 4.0 teams is 6 teams using the courts. Two 3.5 teams and four 4.0 teams is (let's count)... 6 teams using the courts!

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 08:23 AM
Just like us. So that means we'll be utilizing our Public Tennis Center (10 courts), Two local high schools (6 courts each), and a middle school (10 courts) with two sessions each 6:30 pm and 8 pm.

Thats freaking 40 public tennis courts on lock a session.

I hope this is USTA's big objective to get more league players... ahem money.

JoelDali
11-30-2009, 08:47 AM
I hope this is USTA's big objective to get more league players... ahem money.

You have no idea how wrong you are.

The USTA makes more in one day off Ben and Jerry's smoothies royalties at the USO than league all year.

MMmmmm love those 9$ smoothies!

:)

JLyon
11-30-2009, 09:02 AM
ok so 3 cases linked below, 2 remained 4.5 and one got bumped to 5.0:
http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/TennisLinkReports.asp?Level=I&MemberID=DB006CC7D0D026B685047B7A19781FBE3D&CYear=2009 15-2 record at 4.5 did not drop a set in 3 matches at Nationals

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/TennisLinkReports.asp?Level=I&MemberID=DB00AD987FD050B685843B7A29384F2F1C&CYear=2009 went 2-1 local 4.5, 1-2 local 5.0

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/TennisLinkReports.asp?Level=I&MemberID=DB00AAD557D00936B594FBFA39C82F1E1C&CYear=2009 16-3 record at 4.5, 2-1 at Nationals

Shows the Computer is still clueless in many cases and seems to penalize those who play up.

CrocodileRock
11-30-2009, 09:16 AM
I know USTA was trying to level out the field a bit but does anyone else feel that they moved WAY too many guys into 4.0 and way too many to 4.5 - most of the 5.0's I know didn't get bumped and it's a little odd that I could be playing them on mixed and combo teams, I truly think that USTA needed more teams at higher levels??

Anyone else similar thoughts?

I agree schap. After one of my worst years ever in 4.0, I have been moved to 4.5, and 10 of our 13 team members also got moved up, including one who went 0-4 at sectionals. One of my friend's 3.5 teams lost 12 of their players, including one who went 6-10 at 3.5s. Several didn't win a match at sectionals.

86golf
11-30-2009, 11:39 AM
Let's see... three 3.5 teams and three 4.0 teams is 6 teams using the courts. Two 3.5 teams and four 4.0 teams is (let's count)... 6 teams using the courts!

Sorry for the confusion, but 3.5's and 4.0's play on different nights. If we have four 4.0 teams at our club, that would require 2 home and 2 away matches on Tuesday nights plus fighting with any ladies leagues that same night. We'll be lucky to finish our matches by midnight.

Cindysphinx
11-30-2009, 11:49 AM
Sorry for the confusion, but 3.5's and 4.0's play on different nights. If we have four 4.0 teams at our club, that would require 2 home and 2 away matches on Tuesday nights plus fighting with any ladies leagues that same night. We'll be lucky to finish our matches by midnight.

You could change your system to be like ours. Matches can be on any given day of the week throughout the season. Then you could just play everyone at a reasonable time without having backlogs on certain nights for no good reason.

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 12:26 PM
You have no idea how wrong you are.

The USTA makes more in one day off Ben and Jerry's smoothies royalties at the USO than league all year.

MMmmmm love those 9$ smoothies!

:)

So in otherwords, you've never donated additional money for wheelchair tennis or junior development programs when renewing your USTA membership?

How about this area's lack of a 4.5 league? All those new 4.5 players that sit out after getting bumped up now have a decent amount of players to start a league.

Just take the the following numbers and multiply them by $40 per member (or $65 for families) and then $50 for playing a league:


As seen on http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.asp

This table shows a broad overview of the movement of players at 2009 year end.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2znv0cg.jpg

RelivingMyTennisYouth
11-30-2009, 12:39 PM
Maybe I am a little confused, but people who have gone to sectionals are complaining about being bumped up? Sectionals usually means you are the best of local league teams where I come from.

Also, If the best of 3.0, 3,5, and 4.0 are moved up, doesn't that even the playing field in all of the levels. Are are some just alarmed that they will not dominate their level like they are use to. They will no longer be the dynastity they once were and have to actually put out an effort just like the rest of us (playing somewhere in the middle of their particular level).

nyc
11-30-2009, 12:54 PM
Wow, this is starting to look like a Tsunami! In my local leagues there's so many bump up, that it will completely reshuffle the field and mix up the teams that have been stagnant for years.

I for one am very happy for this, as I was seriously considering not to play anymore next year - tired of these old geezers that slice'n'dice their way to ugly wins.

I guess there was such a lack of players at the 4.5 and 5.0 levels that the USTA decided to move the masses up.

It's gonna get ugly....

sunshinez
11-30-2009, 12:58 PM
The whole idea of the rating system is to match alike players and make it as even as possible.I applaud there effect.

OrangePower
11-30-2009, 01:07 PM
Maybe I am a little confused, but people who have gone to sectionals are complaining about being bumped up? Sectionals usually means you are the best of local league teams where I come from.

Also, If the best of 3.0, 3,5, and 4.0 are moved up, doesn't that even the playing field in all of the levels. Are are some just alarmed that they will not dominate their level like they are use to. They will no longer be the dynastity they once were and have to actually put out an effort just like the rest of us (playing somewhere in the middle of their particular level).

I agree with your sentiment, but want to point out one thing:

This isn't going to level the playing field; because no matter where the USTA draws the boundaries between the levels, and how they decide to distribute players across all the levels, there will always be players close to the top of each level, and players close to the bottom - have's and have-nots.

What this has caused though is that many players who are used to being near the top now find themselves at a new level where they will be average at best. The real 'winners' are those that were in the middle of a level, and now find themselves close to the top of that level since the better players were all bumped up.

Even though I'm one of the have's turned into a have-not, I still think this reshuffle is a great thing because it will be motivation for players to get better, plus it means less of a glut of players at the lower levels and more players at the higher levels, which should lead to more playing opportunities for everyone.

ohplease
11-30-2009, 01:35 PM
So let's spend some time w/the data: http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.asp

This translates to the following table, where column 1 is the playing level, #2 is the old percentage of the total playing population at that level, #3 is the new percentage:

2.5 6.21 4.05
3.0 26.57 17.37
3.5 38.91 38.97
4.0 21.41 29.72
4.5 5.97 8.82
5.0 0.86 1.00
5.5 0.04 0.03

Essentially, they reduced the number of 3.0s by making them 3.5s, and they increased the number of 4.0s by moving up 3.5s. The total number of 3.5s remains pretty much the same. There's more competition at 4.5, and there remains very few computer rated 5.0+ players in USTA league play

Note: there are about 500 5.0+ players in the entire nation by this measure - either a whole bunch don't play USTA (possible), or this board has a whole hell of a lot of liars (also possible).

I've been advocating that the USTA do something like this for a long time, and I actually think they didn't bump up enough people. For example, before 72% of league participants were 3.5 or lower, and 93% were 4.0 or lower. Now, 60% are 3.5 or lower, and 90% are 4.0 or lower - those percentages are still way too high. Both 3.5 and 4.0 levels are still far too big. In fact, w/the changes, the aggregate size of 3.5+4.0 got even bigger, where before those two levels represented 60% of the playing population, now they represent 70%.

Bravo USTA for right shifting the curve. Next year, flatten it out some, too - the tails shouldn't be this narrow.

BTW: I got bumped. Instead of a boring regular season+competitive post-season, I now get a competitive regular season - and I'm happy w/that change.

aldekeuk
11-30-2009, 01:40 PM
Also, If the best of 3.0, 3,5, and 4.0 are moved up, doesn't that even the playing field in all of the levels. Are are some just alarmed that they will not dominate their level like they are use to. They will no longer be the dynastity they once were and have to actually put out an effort just like the rest of us (playing somewhere in the middle of their particular level).

That may be the case at 3.0-4.0 but is NOT the case at 4.5 and above where the # of bumps was FAR lower. as ohplease has since pointed out the tails remained pretty narrow (very few players got bumped in my local league from 4.5 to 5.0 so 5.0 remains a place where there isn't much opportunity to play USTA league tennis due to a small # of players).

smoothtennis
11-30-2009, 01:57 PM
I agree schap. After one of my worst years ever in 4.0, I have been moved to 4.5, and 10 of our 13 team members also got moved up, including one who went 0-4 at sectionals. One of my friend's 3.5 teams lost 12 of their players, including one who went 6-10 at 3.5s. Several didn't win a match at sectionals.

Crock - did you see how many 4.0's were bumped to 4.5 from our state?! Wow - and a massive shift from 3.5 to 4.0. This looks like a big shift going on to me. It's all good, I played 4.5 USTA this year, and frankly, it was quite a bit funner than 4.0. I know you like to play those tournaments, and a 4.5 bump is harder to deal with for singles tourneys. But the leauge play is great.

From what I could see, only one 4.5 was bumped last year in TX., and then Atutu said 12 guys from Austin were bumped? Something is up.

JavierLW
11-30-2009, 02:50 PM
Bravo USTA for right shifting the curve. Next year, flatten it out some, too - the tails shouldn't be this narrow.

.

I disagree.

It's HARD to advance to 5.0 or 5.5 skill level wise, you are almost as close you can get without playing pro.

It's silly to complain just because they have X number of players and 3.5 has Y number of players as if it should be exactly even, that just doesnt make sense.

If you started out with 100 brand new tennis players who have just learned how to play tennis, you'll be lucky if one of them works on their game so much that they are 5.0. (or even 4.5, even in the current system)

OrangePower
11-30-2009, 02:58 PM
So let's spend some time w/the data: http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.asp

This translates to the following table, where column 1 is the playing level, #2 is the old percentage of the total playing population at that level, #3 is the new percentage:

2.5 6.21 4.05
3.0 26.57 17.37
3.5 38.91 38.97
4.0 21.41 29.72
4.5 5.97 8.82
5.0 0.86 1.00
5.5 0.04 0.03

Essentially, they reduced the number of 3.0s by making them 3.5s, and they increased the number of 4.0s by moving up 3.5s. The total number of 3.5s remains pretty much the same. There's more competition at 4.5, and there remains very few computer rated 5.0+ players in USTA league play

Note: there are about 500 5.0+ players in the entire nation by this measure - either a whole bunch don't play USTA (possible), or this board has a whole hell of a lot of liars (also possible).

I've been advocating that the USTA do something like this for a long time, and I actually think they didn't bump up enough people. For example, before 72% of league participants were 3.5 or lower, and 93% were 4.0 or lower. Now, 60% are 3.5 or lower, and 90% are 4.0 or lower - those percentages are still way too high. Both 3.5 and 4.0 levels are still far too big. In fact, w/the changes, the aggregate size of 3.5+4.0 got even bigger, where before those two levels represented 60% of the playing population, now they represent 70%.

Bravo USTA for right shifting the curve. Next year, flatten it out some, too - the tails shouldn't be this narrow.

BTW: I got bumped. Instead of a boring regular season+competitive post-season, I now get a competitive regular season - and I'm happy w/that change.

Agree with you!

Just for fun I charted out the numbers and posted on another thread:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4161919#post4161919

Definitely the curve should have been flattened.

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Damn... saw some 3.5s in my area got bumped up to 4.5. Too bad.

Worst thing about all these USTA NTRP changes, there's only one local club here that references your USTA rating. That's the one with all the courts and all the tournaments. Half the time they let members play where ever they want.

The rest of the clubs do it on their pros' speculation, or just have it Open, then trickle down to B and C brackets.

Fedace
11-30-2009, 06:10 PM
Damn... saw some 3.5s in my area got bumped up to 4.5. Too bad.

Probably Ringers,, got what they deserved.....

innoVAShaun
11-30-2009, 06:12 PM
Ringers at Mixed maybe. But not at mens.

Rabbit
11-30-2009, 07:51 PM
This crap makes no sense at all. On our team last year, there was a guy who played all his matches with either me or another guy on the team. He got bumped to 5.0 and neither of us did. Exactly how does this work? It would seem that at least one partner should go with him considering that they had an equal share in the wins.

Not that I'm complaining. I think as a protest, I'm going to lay out 3 years and self-rate 3.0.

innoVAShaun
12-01-2009, 06:33 AM
^^^^^I'm with you

MrTennis
12-01-2009, 11:32 AM
The whole idea of the rating system is to match alike players and make it as even as possible.I applaud there effect.


I agree with you whole heartedly!

amarone
12-01-2009, 11:35 AM
This crap makes no sense at all. On our team last year, there was a guy who played all his matches with either me or another guy on the team. He got bumped to 5.0 and neither of us did. Exactly how does this work? It would seem that at least one partner should go with him considering that they had an equal share in the wins. Partners have the same changes made to their ratings after a match, e.g. both get .04 added, or both get .03 deducted.

The most likely explanation is that the guy in question started the season with a higher rating than you. You both had x added to your rating as a result of your matches. His original rating plus x put him over the line, yours plus x did not.

MrCLEAN
12-01-2009, 05:04 PM
I haven't played any matches since June, in July the mid seasons came out and I was a 3.5. Year ends came out and I'm a 4??

amarone
12-01-2009, 06:02 PM
I haven't played any matches since June, in July the mid seasons came out and I was a 3.5. Year ends came out and I'm a 4?? Entirely possible. For a start, there is the general move-up that we have all been talking about. Even without that, year-end ratings can differ from ESRs because of the benchmark process.

Tennisman912
12-01-2009, 06:39 PM
Cindy,

You said “Now there are a whole bunch of 3.5 women I can beat, and I'm not seeing too many 3.5 names out there that strike fear into my heart.”

We have two issues. First, All the USTA did in the mass move of ratings is give people the idea that they are better than they are. They’re skills have not improved yet many were bumped up. Now instead of competing with mostly 3.5s, now you are competing against 3.0s that were bumped up to help the curve. Many of these 3.0s you will dominate or kill in the upcoming season will be pretty down on tennis and I see many leaving the sport for the seemingly arbitrary way everyone was moved up. The same process will play out in the 4.0 and 4.5 levels as well.

Yes, there are many more people in each level but that just dilutes the level to a lower standard of play (at least in the short term). Everyone thought people complained about potential sandbaggers before but wait until this season. There will be such a wide level of skill at each level that the lower players for level will think everyone who kills them is a sandbagger. The vast majority will not be competitive and will not be having fun while getting killed. Many people will not have a happy USTA season this coming year.

Moving people up when they aren’t ready does not help them or the game. But I guess it is good for all those who thought they would never reach a certain level (speaking generally here) and now they have, even though they are probably not any better than they were. The computer helped them. All I can say to those is be careful what you wish for; you just may get it and realize, gee, maybe I should not be at that level or this is much different than I thought it would be.

I think this is bad for tennis but time will tell. Good tennis all.

TM

JavierLW
12-01-2009, 06:56 PM
We have two issues. First, All the USTA did in the mass move of ratings is give people the idea that they are better than they are. They’re skills have not improved yet many were bumped up. Now instead of competing with mostly 3.5s, now you are competing against 3.0s that were bumped up to help the curve. Many of these 3.0s you will dominate or kill in the upcoming season will be pretty down on tennis and I see many leaving the sport for the seemingly arbitrary way everyone was moved up. The same process will play out in the 4.0 and 4.5 levels as well.

I realize that is some people's opinion's, but if you talk to any knowledgeable professional teaching pro they will tell you this:

The NTRP Skill ratings were not just meant for league play. They are a GENERAL definition of what constitutes a certain level player.

You work on your game, your skill level improves. Notice that all the skill levels talk about aspects of how you play the game and not how you are managing to defeat people at any such level. (because that's all relative)

The problem with league play though is it's hard for that to correspond with these ratings. And it may be hard for someone to accept but anyone who's been following who exists in these ratings will say that they've been off in the direction where too many people are UNDER-rated, not OVER-rated.

When you follow it to the bottom, the proof in some areas is always in the pudding. At 3.0 Men's for example, if you find a real beginner tennis player, they cant even find a 3.0 team to play on because 3.0 is full of guys who actually have pretty strokes, decent serves, etc... (what the descriptions say for 3.5 and 4.0) (Like Raiden!!! :-) )

I would agree with you though if they took it too far like some guy suggested on here. It's silly to assume that there should be the same number of players at each level from 2.5 to 5.5 because that's not what the SKILL ratings are about. (like moving a ton of players into 5.0 just to satisfy some bean counter WOULD mean a bunch of players didnt actually get good enough to get to 5.0)

But I dont think that's what they intended, they just saw that the lines were somewhat off from the description chart, so they just redrew them.

Cindysphinx
12-01-2009, 07:19 PM
Tennisman,

My opinion is that the ratings adjustment will simply change the identities of Those Who Are Happy and Those Who Are Unhappy.

Before the ratings adjustment I was Unhappy. I played my heart out and couldn't beat some ladies. They were Happy because they were winning; I was Unhappy because I was not.

Now they are Unhappy and I am Happy. The net is that the same number of people are Happy/Unhappy, so it won't affect overall satisfaction with league play.

JMHO.

raiden031
12-01-2009, 07:30 PM
Cindy,

You said “Now there are a whole bunch of 3.5 women I can beat, and I'm not seeing too many 3.5 names out there that strike fear into my heart.”

We have two issues. First, All the USTA did in the mass move of ratings is give people the idea that they are better than they are. They’re skills have not improved yet many were bumped up. Now instead of competing with mostly 3.5s, now you are competing against 3.0s that were bumped up to help the curve. Many of these 3.0s you will dominate or kill in the upcoming season will be pretty down on tennis and I see many leaving the sport for the seemingly arbitrary way everyone was moved up. The same process will play out in the 4.0 and 4.5 levels as well.

Yes, there are many more people in each level but that just dilutes the level to a lower standard of play (at least in the short term). Everyone thought people complained about potential sandbaggers before but wait until this season. There will be such a wide level of skill at each level that the lower players for level will think everyone who kills them is a sandbagger. The vast majority will not be competitive and will not be having fun while getting killed. Many people will not have a happy USTA season this coming year.

Moving people up when they aren’t ready does not help them or the game. But I guess it is good for all those who thought they would never reach a certain level (speaking generally here) and now they have, even though they are probably not any better than they were. The computer helped them. All I can say to those is be careful what you wish for; you just may get it and realize, gee, maybe I should not be at that level or this is much different than I thought it would be.

I think this is bad for tennis but time will tell. Good tennis all.

TM

You're talking as if the previous ratings were what USTA intended, and that this year's change is some new idea. That clearly isn't the case and USTA is just reacting to a trend that has been happening over the years and has gotten out of hand...which is basically that there has been alot of downward pressure on the rating system because of the desire to win matches and championships.

I always found it odd that college players on the Experienced player guidelines seems to range from like 4.5 to 6.5, yet I have played numerous former college players who seem to all range in the 4.0 to 4.5 range. I have even played former D-1 college players who are no better than a 4.5 player.

It will certainly be painful because teams are being ripped apart and players who are used to having winning records are now going to have losing records. If someone is going to quit over this change, then maybe they weren't really that dedicated to the game and were playing for the wrong reasons (ie. the pen).

Tennisman912
12-01-2009, 10:15 PM
You make an excellent point there Cindy. I don't profess to having any easy answers myself.

Good tennis

TM

Tennisman912
12-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Yes Raiden031, it will be painful for some and you also make some valid points about what kind of tennis fan might stop playing because of this. But I believe the ratings were more accurate overall the old way for the vast majority of players. Do some fall through the cracks? Of course, but it was better than deciding to move 30% or whatever the number was all in one season. It will be interesting to say the least though.

But this will not prevent those who want to manipulate the system to their own benefit, i.e. very good players playing down. They will find a way to get where they want as always, although it may take a little extra time this year.

The scale is pretty sparse at the top end meaning if you are a real 5.5 (or even 5.0) in many areas, you just can't play USTA league tennis unless you live in a tennis hotbed. Not that that excuses sandbagging in any way shape or form. But as a former college player, I just can't understand or comprehend the mindset of how a really strong player, college or otherwise, at any level for that matter, would want to play down. I play for the competition and want the best I can find. If I play respectably and lose, so be it and that is fine. But it certainly is not fun to dominate those below your true level for I just can't respect that player, not matter the level. Most ex college players I know are hyper competitive so they would feel empty if they beat someone vastly inferior (as they should IMHO). If anything, they would swing in the opposite direction and would rather just not play if the tennis won't be competitive. If you are filling in or helping out in social tennis fine but play your level if in league play. Just my thoughts on it.

Good tennis all and best of luck in your second 4.0 season.

TM

TM

cak
12-01-2009, 11:26 PM
Tennisman,

My opinion is that the ratings adjustment will simply change the identities of Those Who Are Happy and Those Who Are Unhappy.

Before the ratings adjustment I was Unhappy. I played my heart out and couldn't beat some ladies. They were Happy because they were winning; I was Unhappy because I was not.

Now they are Unhappy and I am Happy. The net is that the same number of people are Happy/Unhappy, so it won't affect overall satisfaction with league play.

JMHO.

Hmm, I wonder where I fit in. Last year I was extremely happy. Those playing against me, less so. Got bumped in ESRs for seniors, now not happy at all. But then end of the year ratings came out and everyone and their brother got bumped up with me, so come winter I should end up back in the middle, right?

(Though women in my area seem much less affected than the men. So I may not be as happy as I was hoping.)

brad1730
12-02-2009, 05:01 AM
I am surprised that I haven't read more comments like... "the 3.5's in our section were more like 4.0's everywhere else, so this just evens things out."

Also, I wonder if anyone will run these numbers by section - to see if one area of the country really did get more bumps based on a percentage of players.

amarone
12-02-2009, 05:34 AM
Also, I wonder if anyone will run these numbers by section - to see if one area of the country really did get more bumps based on a percentage of players.That would be interesting, although I assume it would be a result of the existing benchmark process rather than an effect of the general move up.

raiden031
12-02-2009, 05:36 AM
Yes Raiden031, it will be painful for some and you also make some valid points about what kind of tennis fan might stop playing because of this. But I believe the ratings were more accurate overall the old way for the vast majority of players. Do some fall through the cracks? Of course, but it was better than deciding to move 30% or whatever the number was all in one season. It will be interesting to say the least though.

But this will not prevent those who want to manipulate the system to their own benefit, i.e. very good players playing down. They will find a way to get where they want as always, although it may take a little extra time this year.

The scale is pretty sparse at the top end meaning if you are a real 5.5 (or even 5.0) in many areas, you just can't play USTA league tennis unless you live in a tennis hotbed. Not that that excuses sandbagging in any way shape or form. But as a former college player, I just can't understand or comprehend the mindset of how a really strong player, college or otherwise, at any level for that matter, would want to play down. I play for the competition and want the best I can find. If I play respectably and lose, so be it and that is fine. But it certainly is not fun to dominate those below your true level for I just can't respect that player, not matter the level. Most ex college players I know are hyper competitive so they would feel empty if they beat someone vastly inferior (as they should IMHO). If anything, they would swing in the opposite direction and would rather just not play if the tennis won't be competitive. If you are filling in or helping out in social tennis fine but play your level if in league play. Just my thoughts on it.

Good tennis all and best of luck in your second 4.0 season.

TM

TM

The only problem I have with your logic is the bolded statement. How do you know that the old ratings were more accurate? With respect to what? USTA is the almighty God when it comes to NTRP ratings. If they say that a low 4.0 is really what most of us have been considering an average 3.5 for many years, then who are we to say that they are wrong?

When you have many former college players joining 4.5 leagues (because they are the highest level available in many areas), then they get to play against each other so they still get the competition. The side effect is that it causes the "true" 4.5s to get pushed towards 4.0 and so on.

Explorer3903
12-02-2009, 09:05 AM
I agree with TennisMan912 - I would want to play someone comparable in level or higher. I don't get some people who have been rated up (even on several occasions) and appeal. It seems like they are more worried about their win/loss record than getting better. You're only going to get better at the game by playing better competition.

There will always be people trying to "beat' the system. Feel sorry for those people that try to stay at a certain level - they are only cheating themselves at getting better. To each, his/her own.

Just go out and hit the court - play hard, but also have some fun.

Tennisman912
12-02-2009, 11:13 AM
Raiden, you said "How do you know that the old ratings were more accurate?"

I can't prove it was better than before, I just think that the majority of the players were where they should have been. I am the first to admit to some anomalies in the whole way things are calculated as evidenced by how many misplaced players we had in the past that we have all seen. I have certainly seen my share of people who were bumped before who shouldn't have been (IMHO) and vice versa. But adjusting 30% at once certainly doesn't help most players IMHO.

This doesn't affect cheaters as cheaters will always find a way to game the system. I am ignoring that.

Regarding many ex college players playing 4.5, I agree that is not ideal. But many are older now and just have lost a step to compete with true 5.0+ players in their twenties. If they are still 25, then yes they should not be allowed to play 4.5 and should be removed. But those that are 35-45 certainly have good strokes but are no where near where they were in their 20s. That is how former D1 players end up in 4.5 as they age. Then we come to where do we draw the line? Who decides? There are a few that probably shouldn't be playing 4.5 as they are pretty strong players, but that number is not excessive in my area. I would love to have local 5.0 but we (like many areas) just don't have the players. They are out there but just don't care to play USTA.

Worse is yes, all those players are competitive with each other but now all those who were just bumped to 4.5 are in for a world of hurt (for many of them). Granted, the mass move up is more in the 3.5 to 4.0 area as the numbers bumped to 4.5 is much smaller comparatively. But they are now in the midst of many who have played on and off their whole lives. One weakness and they won't ever get a chance to hit their favorite shot. And let's face it, it they didn't have any, they would have already been bumped to 4.5.

To me, irregardless of the rating guidelines, the 4.5 level is the first level of players who can hit every shot in the book comfortably without having to think about technique. This is true with rare exception. Sure they have strengths and weaknesses, but to the average player, they don't see them. They can be offensive returning off both wings consistently and more importantly, have better shot selection than those below that level. They don't make mental mistakes often. My point is they will mercilessly attack the weakness of that new player bumped up and the new player will not have fun never seeing another forehand against the players who can control the ball and court with their knowledge of the game. That equates to frustrated players IMHO.

And before the argument is made that playing better players is good for your game I agree with that to a point. But not when they are consistently late and out of position or are just in the wrong place. This just reinforces poor technique to survive in the now and does not help their game in the long run. They then have to retool and start over where they were before this happened.

As I said, this is just my opinion and it will be interesting to see how things play out. But I consider this a step it the wrong direction.

good tennis

TM

raiden031
12-03-2009, 06:07 AM
Raiden, you said "How do you know that the old ratings were more accurate?"

I can't prove it was better than before, I just think that the majority of the players were where they should have been. I am the first to admit to some anomalies in the whole way things are calculated as evidenced by how many misplaced players we had in the past that we have all seen. I have certainly seen my share of people who were bumped before who shouldn't have been (IMHO) and vice versa. But adjusting 30% at once certainly doesn't help most players IMHO.


So let me ask you this...do you think that the skill difference between a top 4.0 and a bottom 4.0 has grown larger due to the changes?

gameboy
12-03-2009, 08:20 AM
I can't prove it was better than before, I just think that the majority of the players were where they should have been.

If I go by what you are saying, I do not understand what the beef is. The VAST majority of the players stayed exactly where they were before. The adjustment only affected about 1/4 or less.

Or are you just complaining about what happened to you or your team?

Tennisman912
12-03-2009, 12:01 PM
Raiden031,

Yes, I do believe the disparity in skill between a top 4.0 and a newly bumped 4.0 is wider after these changes (but it was wide before). Not nearly as many great 4.0s were bumped to 4.5 as 3.5s were bumped to 4.0. So I think the 4.0 level is much more varied and on average, will be weaker now IMHO.

Gameboy,

First, I have no beef from a personal standpoint, as my team is essentially unaffected. Even if we were affected, it wouldn’t bother me as I play for the competition and could care less about post-season play or the chance for a coveted pen or bag. This is more of an inquisitive nature in is this good for the betterment of tennis than any personal effect to my team. It is just a curious occurrence to me and doesn't really affect me either way. But this doesn't mean it isn't interesting to think about. This affects the 3.5 and 4.0s much more than other levels. But many at those levels in my area are very affected and certainly many were bumped that probably should not have been and a few are down right insane. All this in the name of progress. Of course none of that affects me, I just get to hear all the people talking about it. We did have a player who was bumped who only played 2 matches in the regular season and didn't play at states but was still bumped. My understanding is that 30% or so were moved and that is a lot compared to past years for no other reason as some committee apparently decided to shake things up this year, thinking (and I use thinking loosely) this will “help.” It just doesn’t make sense to me at all.

As I said, it will be interesting to see how it plays out over the next year.

Good tennis

TM

Vik
12-03-2009, 12:54 PM
From what I could see, only one 4.5 was bumped last year in TX., and then Atutu said 12 guys from Austin were bumped? Something is up.

Um, there were a lot more than 1 last year. There were dozens. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like about the same number of 4.5s bumped up in TX this year as last.

That's the problem. 50% more 4.5 ratings overall = watered down 4.5. They should have bumped more people to 5.0. They did well at 3.5/4.0 just ran out of steam at 4.5.

JavierLW
12-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Um, there were a lot more than 1 last year. There were dozens. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like about the same number of 4.5s bumped up in TX this year as last.

That's the problem. 50% more 4.5 ratings overall = watered down 4.5. They should have bumped more people to 5.0. They did well at 3.5/4.0 just ran out of steam at 4.5.

Or they just realize that it's significantly harder to get from 4.5 to 5.0 so it's not reasonable to move people there just to "even it out".

They didnt do all this to even things out, they did it because they want the league players to better match what the skill descriptions stand for. The higher you go, naturally the less players you'll encounter....

Vik
12-03-2009, 03:09 PM
Or they just realize that it's significantly harder to get from 4.5 to 5.0 so it's not reasonable to move people there just to "even it out".

They didnt do all this to even things out, they did it because they want the league players to better match what the skill descriptions stand for. The higher you go, naturally the less players you'll encounter....

They are reluctant to move people to 5.0 b/c there is not a lot of 5.0 tennis in some areas. Simple as that. However, if they would have applied the same % bump up at 4.5 as lower levels, 5.0 would be on its way to having better activity.

How can you not see that if 20% of 4.0s get bumped but only 5% of 4.5s that 4.5 has been significantly watered down? But hey maybe 3.5/4.0 has been watered down in the past too? Just don't think there should be such a wide disparity in ability within a level.

Think of it this way, a 5.0 and a 4.5 can have a more competitive match against each other than a 4.5 and 4.0 can.

ARNICOLINI
12-03-2009, 06:54 PM
Question:

I just joined USTA in June of 09 and played in 2 leagues. It seems everyone else in this area has their year end ranking date of 12/31/09. Howver mine still says June.

Will I be re ranked this year?

Ronaldo
12-03-2009, 07:18 PM
Had a teammate who lost lost 11, won 2 matches at 4.0 while being rated 3.5. He is 4.0 next yr.

raiden031
12-04-2009, 05:44 AM
Raiden031,

Yes, I do believe the disparity in skill between a top 4.0 and a newly bumped 4.0 is wider after these changes (but it was wide before). Not nearly as many great 4.0s were bumped to 4.5 as 3.5s were bumped to 4.0. So I think the 4.0 level is much more varied and on average, will be weaker now IMHO.



I kinda agree that not enough 4.0s got moved up to 4.5, so there is going to be alot of lop-sided 4.0 matches this year. However I think there will be a big jump in 4.5 ratings next year once matches start playing out.

Slice Approach
12-04-2009, 11:43 AM
I have been thinking about this move by the USTA in bumping a larger number of players up in 2009 (50% higher than last year and what seems to be higher than I have ever seen in the last 10 yrs playing league tennis). It will be interesting to see how this all works out for the 2010 season. I know the USTA was trying to correct some problems in the system, but it seems like "overkill" to me.

I think it will also take some time before you will be able to determine what impact these changes will have on league play. I know that many people were caught off guard with the number of people that were bumped up and the altered definition (or converted back to what was originally intended) of what constitutes a rating level. You used to be able to know, with some rare exceptions, what skill-set a 4.0 or 4.5 level player brings to the table. If you told someone that you were a 4.0 or 4.5...it meant something. Now, it means something else. There were a dozen guys bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 in my section...IMO only 1 was justified, most were average 4.0 players, and a few of them should have gotten bumped down to 3.5 (and I played combo with them.)

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 12:33 PM
I have been thinking about this move by the USTA in bumping a larger number of players up in 2009 (50% higher than last year and what seems to be higher than I have ever seen in the last 10 yrs playing league tennis). It will be interesting to see how this all works out for the 2010 season. I know the USTA was trying to correct some problems in the system, but it seems like "overkill" to me.

I think it will also take some time before you will be able to determine what impact these changes will have on league play. I know that many people were caught off guard with the number of people that were bumped up and the altered definition (or converted back to what was originally intended) of what constitutes a rating level. You used to be able to know, with some rare exceptions, what skill-set a 4.0 or 4.5 level player brings to the table. If you told someone that you were a 4.0 or 4.5...it meant something. Now, it means something else. There were a dozen guys bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 in my section...IMO only 1 was justified, most were average 4.0 players, and a few of them should have gotten bumped down to 3.5 (and I played combo with them.)

I think we'll know right away at least in terms of participants.

It could go way down, or way up, all depending on the logistics of how captains are going to handle this and whether the local leagues are willing to further step in and actually promote more participation rather then just talk about it....

Cindysphinx
12-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Tennisman,

I think this adjustment is perfectly appropriate (and I would say that even if I had been bumped up).

The real gold standard regarding ratings is the rating guidelines. That defines what each level should be, and those standards have not changed. The question becomes whether the players fit the description of their rating level.

Let's look at my level, 3.5:

This player has achieved improved stroke dependability with directional control on moderate shots, but still lacks depth and variety. This player exhibits more aggressive net play, has improved court coverage, and is developing teamwork in doubles.

Do I fit that description when playing someone of my level? Of course. No doubt about it. Let's look at 4.0:
4.0 This player has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both forehand and backhand sides on moderate shots, plus the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots, and volleys with some success. This player occasionally forces errors when serving. Rallies may be lost due to
impatience. Teamwork in doubles is evident.

I would say this description suits me on a bad day. "Teamwork in doubles is evident?" I'm thinking that is an understatement. Able to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with "some success?" Are you kidding? Of course.

Here's 4.5:

This player has begun to master the use of power and spins and is beginning to handle pace, has sound footwork, can control depth of shots, and is beginning to vary game plan according to opponents. This player can hit first serves with power and accuracy and place the second serve. This player
tends to overhit on difficult shots. Aggressive net play is common in doubles.

Eh, no. The thing that looks most familiar here is the bit about overhitting. :)

Hopefully, the rating adjustment will put an end to weak players reading the guidelines and self-rating at 4.0 when they really belong at 3.0. IMHO, the ratings standards are still one level out of synch with the players I see. In other words, my rating level should be 4.0 based on the description. It wouldn't be a bad idea to do another rating adjustment fairly soon to bring the description in line with the players.

OrangePower
12-04-2009, 07:45 PM
I kinda agree that not enough 4.0s got moved up to 4.5, so there is going to be alot of lop-sided 4.0 matches this year. However I think there will be a big jump in 4.5 ratings next year once matches start playing out.

Dunno. Seems to me that the top 1/3 of 4.0s here in Norcal got bumped up to 4.5. Unless that is still 'not enough' by your reckoning :)

Ronaldo
12-04-2009, 07:59 PM
Overall, at our club, guys 60 yo and over that got rated up will no longer play league tennis. Happened 10 yrs ago, most dropped out of USTA. 10 yrs ago had a dozen 4.0 Senior teams, last yr 4.
Next yr maybe 3. I won't play, tired of traveling to Timbuktu and beyond to play on a High School hardcourt for a Coke and a smile on Friday, not Saturday, Friday, yes date nite, not talking about the weekend, Friday nite. Forgetabouit

Tennisman912
12-05-2009, 10:43 AM
Cindy,

Yes, I completely agree with you in that the guidelines can be a bit misleading. But they are only guidelines and the difference between the guidelines and what really happens on the court has been pretty well established by anyone who has played USTA league tennis for a season or two.

It seems like you are just reading the guidelines and just clicking off the boxes I can do that, I can’t do that, etc. just like someone new to tennis who has no idea about league tennis and tennis in the real world. But you have quite a bit of league experience so already know there is not an exact correlation between guidelines and someone’s level in actual match play. If according to your opinion that you are a 4.0 on a bad day, why don’t you just play 4.0 this year and ignore 3.5 since you fit the description? I say put your money where your mouth is and tell us how it goes. I wish you well. But don’t say this mass adjustment was needed and then play down a level instead of going by the guidelines and what your “true” level is. You can’t have it both ways or that would be hypocritical don’t you think?

Also, if you had the skills of a 4.0 in the real world instead of the guidelines world, don’t you think if you were really a 4.0 you would have been bumped already, especially this year as so many were moved to 4.0 from 3.5? I am not saying you are a 3.5 or a 4.0, as I have not seen you play or am I trying to demean your skills in any way. Maybe you really are a 4.0 that has fallen through the cracks of the system. We have all seen many examples of those who were bumped who shouldn’t have and vice versa over time. But playing 4.0 would prove to you beyond a doubt where you truly are in the scale. Are you up for the challenge? You would can a lot of respect from many if you step up and play 4.0.


I only wish we could come up with a simple fix that eliminates the ambiguity of the interpretation between what the ratings guidelines are and their application in the field. But that isn’t going to happen in the real world. There will always be some interpretation involved.

Best of luck at 4.0. I look forward to your response.

TM

Cindysphinx
12-05-2009, 10:52 AM
^I must misunderstand you, Tennisman.

I am saying that the guidelines were *way* out of synch with reality. Now this adjustment has made the guidelines a bit more in synch. Another adjustment in the same direction (that is, moving people up) would be needed to get the guidelines even closer to reality.

So. In my case, I am still rated at 3.5, but I have many of the skills of a 4.0 and am nowhere close to 4.5. One more round of bumps would put me at low 4.0 -- which is where I belong *according to the rating guidelines.*

I have no plans to skip 3.5 and play only 4.0, for lots of reasons (e.g. want to continue playing with my 3.5 pals, want to win some matches for once in my sorry life). It would make sense to do this if the ratings are adjusted again for everyone in 2010. Until then, there are still too many people with 4.5 skills *according to the guideline* playing 4.0, so I could not be competitive.

See what I mean?

raiden031
12-06-2009, 07:05 AM
Cindy and TM, we all know the rating guidelines were and still are a joke. It is all relative. According to the guidelines, I am somewhere between 4.5 and 5.0. My forehand was considered a weapon even when I was still a 3.0 (which having a weapon I think correlates to 5.0 level). I just had so many flaws in my game that I couldn't beat 3.5 players yet. I can do everything the guidelines say a 4.5 can do (except win matches). Plus when I play against a mid 3.5 and below player in singles, I can do anything I want and blow them off the court. Against someone at or above my skill level, my strengths are no longer as effective, and the opponent also hits better shots causing more errors on my part as well. So how you fit the descriptions also can be determined by how good the opponent is.

I think this change in the rating boundaries wasn't just about the guidelines, but it was about the condensing of most players into 4 divisions (3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5), and the skill variation here has become way too wide, mainly in 3.5 and 4.0 divisions. I think USTA intended for most of the elite higher level players to be in 4.5 and 5.0 divisions, not 4.0 and 4.5 divisions.

Cindysphinx
12-06-2009, 07:37 AM
I agree, Raiden. There was a dual purpose -- to correct the compression of players into the lower levels. And to get the actual play at the levels closer to the guidelines.

I agree that the guidelines still do not accurately describe the play. Not yet. They could, but it would take another adjustment.

raiden031
12-06-2009, 09:29 AM
I agree that the guidelines still do not accurately describe the play. Not yet. They could, but it would take another adjustment.

So you're saying the guidelines legitimately outline the differences between one skill level and the next, and that the actual ratings just need to be further shifted?

I think the problem with the guidelines is that they imply that each player of a given skill level are equally developed as tennis players with their peers at the same level. But really a skill level is the summation of all skills as it pertains to match results, some of which are more developed than others on a per individual basis.

There will never be a day where someone completely unfamiliar with NTRP could self-rate accurately based on the guidelines alone. They will always need to be given a context from which to start which means observing rated players either by playing against them or maybe someone knowledgeable on technique could determine by watching them.

Cindysphinx
12-06-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm saying that the USTA guidelines are the best thing we have, and I personally haven't seen anything better.

Given that we have these guidelines, and given that any attempt to rate or rank people with subjective criteria will be flawed and susceptible to misinterpretation, shouldn't we at least *try* to get it as close as we can?

If you're saying you think your game best fits the description of 4.5 and I am saying mine best fits the description of 4.0, doesn't that mean that another universal ratings adjustment might make sense?

That said, the most important goal should be to avoid the condensing of too many players into too few categories.

You know, there might be a difference in the men's game and women's game in this regard. From what I read here at TT, men tend to underrate and sandbag.

On the women's side, I have seen a lot of self-rated women who grossly exaggerated their playing level and get crushed in their first season. That might be one reason why I'd like to keep the guidelines as closely aligned as possible to the actual play levels. It is very annoying as a captain to have someone express interest in your team and claim to be a certain USTA level and then find out they are not even close.

raiden031
12-06-2009, 09:59 AM
I'm saying that the USTA guidelines are the best thing we have, and I personally haven't seen anything better.

If you're saying you think your game best fits the description of 4.5 and I am saying mine best fits the description of 4.0, doesn't that mean that another universal ratings adjustment might make sense?


The guidelines may be the best thing we have to describe the levels, but they should not be utilized for self-rating purposes. I think they could easily be re-written to at least resemble reality a little bit more though, even though it would still be difficult to use them for self-rating purposes.

No...even though I think I might fit in the 4.5 level according to the guidelines, there are people who would fit into a lower level of the guidelines who can beat me handily with their one-dimensional tactics.

raiden031
12-06-2009, 10:03 AM
You know, there might be a difference in the men's game and women's game in this regard. From what I read here at TT, men tend to underrate and sandbag.

On the women's side, I have seen a lot of self-rated women who grossly exaggerated their playing level and get crushed in their first season. That might be one reason why I'd like to keep the guidelines as closely aligned as possible to the actual play levels. It is very annoying as a captain to have someone express interest in your team and claim to be a certain USTA level and then find out they are not even close.

I think this is true in alot of cases. For men its about winning, for women its about social status.

Cindysphinx
12-06-2009, 03:33 PM
The guidelines may be the best thing we have to describe the levels, but they should not be utilized for self-rating purposes. I think they could easily be re-written to at least resemble reality a little bit more though, even though it would still be difficult to use them for self-rating purposes.



But . . . that's their only purpose, no?

I know the savvy people here at TT know better, but if someone just picks up a racket and decides they want to join a league, they have to pick a level. If they know someone in the game, that person can help them. If not, then all they have are the guidelines. I think it makes sense to try to get the guidelines closer to reality.

USTA could simply change the guidelines and label the description of 3.5 to be 3.0. Obviously, this won't work over the long term, as there is only so much downward shifting you can do. So USTA did the most logical thing: bump everyone up.

Topaz
12-06-2009, 04:47 PM
I think this is true in alot of cases. For men its about winning, for women its about social status.

WTF???

Personally, I don't give a sh*t about 'social status'...I want to win and improve and play at a higher level, and I have worked very hard to do so. I also want to play on a team that isn't crazy and have fun while playing hard. I'm hardly the minority when it comes to that on any of my teams.

Social status? Give me a freakin' break.

Cindysphinx
12-06-2009, 06:04 PM
I think Raiden meant that women see their rating as a validation of their tennis prowess. Men, on the other hand, see their rating as permission to beat up on the weak.

Right, Raiden? ;)

raiden031
12-07-2009, 03:20 AM
WTF???

Personally, I don't give a sh*t about 'social status'...I want to win and improve and play at a higher level, and I have worked very hard to do so. I also want to play on a team that isn't crazy and have fun while playing hard. I'm hardly the minority when it comes to that on any of my teams.

Social status? Give me a freakin' break.

Cindy worded it better...

Validation of their tennis prowess. Men don't want that validation, they just want USTA pens and towels....thats their validation.

JoelDali
12-07-2009, 03:51 AM
Very true. Before each match we huddle and put our hands in the middle of the circle and scream:

PEN!
TOWEL!
BOOBIES!
BEER!

LET'S GO!

Intense stuff.

tfm1973
12-07-2009, 05:41 AM
Very true. Before each match we huddle and put our hands in the middle of the circle and scream:

PEN!
TOWEL!
BOOBIES!
BEER!

LET'S GO!

Intense stuff.

lol. +1 internets for you joel. :) i would rearrange your order though personally.