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grafselesfan
11-30-2009, 08:59 AM
Now that the TMC is concluded I think it is clear Nadal has had been the best mens hard court player of 2009. Who do you think it has been.

BigServer1
11-30-2009, 09:17 AM
I'd go Nadal, though he's coasting on the fumes of his AO win.

If DelPo had beaten Davy, he would have gotten my vote.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 09:19 AM
Nadal by a very small, small, small margin.

Docalex007
11-30-2009, 09:19 AM
I can't vote any of them as best HC player for this year! None of them deserve that title. It's too even between them. All of them have highs and their lows, no consistency in dominating HCs.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:21 AM
Nadal's losses on HC in 2009:

RR Robin Soderling (SWE) 9 L 4-6, 4-6 Stats

RR Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 7 L 1-6, 6-7(4) Stats

RR Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 6-7(5), 3-6 Stats

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 2-6, 3-6

F Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 8 L 6-7(3), 3-6 Stats

S Marin Cilic (CRO) 15 L 1-6, 3-6

S Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 2-6, 2-6, 2-6

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 4 L 1-6, 4-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 6-7(5), 1-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 7 L 4-6, 6-3, 6-7(3)

F Andy Murray (GBR) 4 L 3-6, 6-4, 0-6

Q Gael Monfils (FRA) 13 L 4-6, 4-6


So the answer is NO. Nadal is NOT the best HC player of 2009.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 09:22 AM
Nadal's losses on HC in 2009:

RR Robin Soderling (SWE) 9 L 4-6, 4-6 Stats

RR Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 7 L 1-6, 6-7(4) Stats

RR Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 6-7(5), 3-6 Stats

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 2-6, 3-6

F Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 8 L 6-7(3), 3-6 Stats

S Marin Cilic (CRO) 15 L 1-6, 3-6

S Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 2-6, 2-6, 2-6

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 4 L 1-6, 4-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 6-7(5), 1-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 7 L 4-6, 6-3, 6-7(3)

F Andy Murray (GBR) 4 L 3-6, 6-4, 0-6

Q Gael Monfils (FRA) 13 L 4-6, 4-6


So the answer is NO. Nadal is NOT the best HC player of 2009.




Based on results Nadal is the best HC player of 2009, but by only a very small margin.

flying24
11-30-2009, 09:23 AM
I voted Del Potro. U.S Open is the biggest title, and his performances in Canada and the TMC were atleast as impressive as Nadal at Indian Wells anyway. He just got a killer draw in Canada which was too tough to quite finish (he got 20 minutes away before running out of gas). Nadal got so lucky at Indian Wells it is hard to even put into words.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:24 AM
Based on results Nadal is the best HC player of 2009, but by only a very small margin.

Results as in ranking points accumulated on HC events? Anyone has that stat?

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 09:29 AM
Nadal. He made at least the QF of every HC event he played in, no other player did that.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:34 AM
Nadal. He made at least the QF of every HC event he played in, no other player did that.

by that logic, if a player made QF of every event he played in, he would automaticly become the best player of all surfaces in that season?

Cesc Fabregas
11-30-2009, 09:36 AM
I voted Del Potro. U.S Open is the biggest title, and his performances in Canada and the TMC were atleast as impressive as Nadal at Indian Wells anyway. He just got a killer draw in Canada which was too tough to quite finish (he got 20 minutes away before running out of gas). Nadal got so lucky at Indian Wells it is hard to even put into words.

Nadal beat Nalbandian, Roddick and Murray to win his Indian Wells title, Del Potro lost to Murray in the final.

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 09:37 AM
by that logic, if a player made QF of every event he played in, he would automaticly become the best player of all surfaces in that season?

I mean on top of his AO title and MS title, obviously. :roll:

He's been the most consistent HC player all season.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:38 AM
Nadal beat Nalbandian, Roddick and Murray to win his Indian Wells title, Del Potro lost to Murray in the final.

After Nalbandian choked away matchpoints after matchpoints...He was right to say he got lucky.

Mustard
11-30-2009, 09:38 AM
by that logic, if a player made QF of every event he played in, he would automaticly become the best player of all surfaces in that season?

Nadal was the winner of the Australian Open and Indian Wells Masters, and was also runner-up of the Shanghai Masters. Add this to the fact that he reached at least the quarter finals of every hardcourt event he played in this year, I say Nadal.

This is about the whole of 2009, not just the last few weeks or months.

batz
11-30-2009, 09:40 AM
So the guy who won the most hardcourt titles, who has the highest % of hardcourt wins, the best hardcourt head to head v top 8 and the only guy to win 2 hardcourt masters titles doesn't even get a place in the poll?

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 09:40 AM
After Nalbandian choked away matchpoints after matchpoints...He was right to say he got lucky.

Haas choked BPs vs Fed after being 2 sets up. Is it right to devalue Fed's FO title b/c of that?

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Haas choked BPs vs Fed after being 2 sets up. Is it right to devalue Fed's FO title b/c of that?

BPs are not MPs.

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 09:45 AM
BPs are not MPs.

It was a glorified MP being 4-3 up.

Still, answer the question. Is it OK to say Fed was lucky to win the French, since you're saying Nadal was lucky to win IW?

Cesc Fabregas
11-30-2009, 09:46 AM
It was a glorified MP being 4-3 up.

Still, answer the question. Is it OK to say Fed was lucky to win the French, since you're saying Nadal was lucky to win IW?

Exactly. Some also might say Federer choked the US Open final to Del Potro.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:47 AM
I mean on top of his AO title and MS title, obviously. :roll:

He's been the most consistent HC player all season.

I was refering to the logic of that post alone. I did not see "I mean on top of his AO title and MS title" in that post.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 09:50 AM
It was a glorified MP being 4-3 up.

Still, answer the question. Is it OK to say Fed was lucky to win the French, since you're saying Nadal was lucky to win IW?

glorified MP is not multiple REAL MPs.

Fed was lucky to win the French? I thought thats the forgone conclusion here on TW that he is. Isn't it? Not facing Nadal = lucky. Weren't you around during the FO? lol

egn
11-30-2009, 09:50 AM
Points on hardcourts


Federer 5100 (11)
Nadal 5325 (12)
Del Potro 5025 (13)



These numbers should be right..might be off did this quickly will look at it again but basically I took every point earned on hardcourts even non counted one. Nadal is the clear leader here but if I am correct Fed played the least actual tournaments due to withdrawls Nadal played the second least and Del Potro played the most. They are all extremely close and a big factor could be both Fed and Del Potro missed a master series tournament on hardcourts. Very interesting numbers. Could someone double check the point totals though? I might have god the year end championship values for as I could not find it listed and had to do the calculations based off wikipedia and could have minor adding errors.

flying24
11-30-2009, 10:07 AM
So the guy who won the most hardcourt titles, who has the highest % of hardcourt wins, the best hardcourt head to head v top 8 and the only guy to win 2 hardcourt masters titles doesn't even get a place in the poll?

If you lose in the 4th round of the 2 biggest hard court events of the year, and are eliminated in the RR of the 3rd, no you shouldnt get any place on the poll.

vanity
11-30-2009, 10:11 AM
What the heck has Djokovic won to be in this pole? While Murray isn't?

You got to love the fact the OP has not added Murray even though he's won more MS titles on HC this year than any of the top 5.

flying24
11-30-2009, 10:12 AM
What the heck has Djokovic won to be in this pole? While Murray isn't?

You got to love the fact the OP has not added Murray eventough he's won more MS titles on HC this year than any of the top 5.

LOL, Djokovic is not in the poll.

vanity
11-30-2009, 10:13 AM
LOL, Djokovic is not in the poll.

Wrong thread, but it's still true.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
11-30-2009, 10:14 AM
Nadal beat Nalbandian, Roddick and Murray to win his Indian Wells title, Del Potro lost to Murray in the final.

Talk about he will lose a shitload of points failing to defend that title in 3,5 months ! :shock:

Breaker
11-30-2009, 10:14 AM
What the heck has Djokovic won to be in this pole? While Murray isn't?

You got to love the fact the OP has not added Murray even though he's won more MS titles on HC this year than any of the top 5.

Think you have to get to the quarterfinals of a hard court slam first to be considered a top hard court player on the year..

I voted Nadal even though the other three could be argued for. It was very close on hard courts this year.

batz
11-30-2009, 10:20 AM
If you lose in the 4th round of the 2 biggest hard court events of the year, and are eliminated in the RR of the 3rd, no you shouldnt get any place on the poll.

OK. The whole hardcourt season is only about the two slams and WTF. Now I understand.

A player could win all 5 hardcourt MS events and 4 ATP 500 hardcourt events, but if another player won the WTF then he should be in the poll but the guy who won those 9 titles shouldn't - assuming their hardcourt slam records are the same.

That's the clear implication of your statement. Only those 3 titles count.

GasquetGOAT
11-30-2009, 10:20 AM
Points on hardcourts


Federer 5100 (11)
Nadal 5325 (12)
Del Potro 5025 (13)



My calculation:

Federer 5100
Nadal 5925
Del Potro 5480


Again, could be wrong.

batz
11-30-2009, 10:20 AM
Think you have to get to the quarterfinals of a hard court slam first to be considered a top hard court player on the year..

I voted Nadal even though the other three could be argued for. It was very close on hard courts this year.

Like Davydenko did?

Breaker
11-30-2009, 10:22 AM
OK. The whole hardcourt season is only about the two slams and WTF. Now I understand.

A player could win all 5 hardcourt MS events and 4 ATP 500 hardcourt events, but if another player won the WTF then he should be in the poll but the guy who won those 9 titles shouldn't - assuming their hardcourt slam records are the same.

That's the clear implication of your statement. Only those 3 titles count.

IF Murray had won all 5 then he would definitely be in with a shout, however, he only won two and made the final of another. His performances in the slams were average at best and only a RR performance at TMC doesn't help either. There's nothing that he really has over Federer, Nadal, Davydenko, or Del Potro.

batz
11-30-2009, 10:27 AM
IF Murray had won all 5 then he would definitely be in with a shout, however, he only won two and made the final of another. His performances in the slams were average at best and only a RR performance at TMC doesn't help either. There's nothing that he really has over Federer, Nadal, Davydenko, or Del Potro.

Winning two is so easy isn't it - that's how come nobody else on tour did it this year.

Murray won 5 hardcourt titles - more than any of them. He has won a higher % of hardcourt matches than any of them. He has the best hardcourt head to head v the rest of the top 8 than any of them. He has won more hardcourt Masters Events than any of them.

You're right - that's nothing.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Winning two is so easy isn't it - that's how come nobody else on tour did it this year.

Murray won 5 hardcourt titles - more than any of them. He has won a higher % of hardcourt matches than any of them. He has the best hardcourt head to head v the rest of the top 8 than any of them. He has won more hardcourt Masters Events than any of them.

You're right - that's nothing.




Federer has 2 slam finals and a Masters title. Nadal has a slam and a masters title. Del Potro has a final at a Masters and a slam title. Davydenko has a Masters and a TMC.



You're right, he has everything over them.

kishnabe
11-30-2009, 10:52 AM
Federer for his run at the Slam finals, Cincinatti beatdown and semi's of TMC!

grafselesfan
11-30-2009, 11:05 AM
I voted Nadal. If Del Potro had won Sundays final I would have said him but he didnt.

fps
11-30-2009, 11:49 AM
IMO there is no "best" hardcourt player this year, just a group of players who have done very well.

Breaker
11-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Winning two is so easy isn't it - that's how come nobody else on tour did it this year.

Murray won 5 hardcourt titles - more than any of them. He has won a higher % of hardcourt matches than any of them. He has the best hardcourt head to head v the rest of the top 8 than any of them. He has won more hardcourt Masters Events than any of them.

You're right - that's nothing.

If you think those things are enough to put him over 1 slam each from Nadal (and MS) and DelPo, 2 slam runners up + MS from Fed, and a TMC and a MS from Davydenko --- then that's fine.

It makes no sense whatsoever though.

grafselesfan
11-30-2009, 12:02 PM
OK. The whole hardcourt season is only about the two slams and WTF. Now I understand.

A player could win all 5 hardcourt MS events and 4 ATP 500 hardcourt events, but if another player won the WTF then he should be in the poll but the guy who won those 9 titles shouldn't - assuming their hardcourt slam records are the same.

That's the clear implication of your statement. Only those 3 titles count.

Murray hasnt even come close to winning all 9 of those events so your hypothetical is pointless.

batz
11-30-2009, 12:14 PM
For clarity - I don't think Murray is hardcourt player of the year or anywhere close, but if Davydenko is in the poll then so is Murray.

batz
11-30-2009, 12:16 PM
Murray hasnt even come close to winning all 9 of those events so your hypothetical is pointless.

Flying24 said that:

If you lose in the 4th round of the 2 biggest hard court events of the year, and are eliminated in the RR of the 3rd, no you shouldnt get any place on the poll.

I didn't say Murray came close. I didn't mention murray. I simply pointed out the logical implication of Flying24's assertion.

batz
11-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Federer has 2 slam finals and a Masters title. Nadal has a slam and a masters title. Del Potro has a final at a Masters and a slam title. Davydenko has a Masters and a TMC.



You're right, he has everything over them.

enough with your strawman - I never said Murray was ahead of any of them but to repeat, if Davy's in the poll then si so is Murray.

It's funny how those guys winning a single masters title is part of the equation but Murray's two wins are disregarded. Must be an easy thing to do - so easy that none of those other guys were able to do it this year.

flying24
11-30-2009, 12:27 PM
enough with your strawman - I never said Murray was ahead of any of them but to repeat, if Davy's in the poll then si so is Murray.

It's funny how those guys winning a single masters title is part of the equation but Murray's two wins are disregarded. Must be an easy thing to do - so easy that none of those other guys were able to do it this year.

Winning the Year end Event plus a regular Masters is bigger than winning 2 regular Masters, as the Year End Event is clearly bigger than a regular Masters.

TMF
11-30-2009, 12:28 PM
Now that the TMC is concluded I think it is clear Nadal has had been the best mens hard court player of 2009. Who do you think it has been.

The problem for Nadal is he start out strong at the beginning of the year, but ended the year with a terrible note. A player who finished strong in the 2nd half of the year normally gets the edge over a player did in the 1st half. Sure Nadal is the best in the earlier stage of the year, but in the 2nd half the other players were better than him. And not only Rafa was winless at RR, he was set-less, which hurts him even more.

batz
11-30-2009, 12:37 PM
Winning the Year end Event plus a regular Masters is bigger than winning 2 regular Masters, as the Year End Event is clearly bigger than a regular Masters.

I don't disagree with this. But Murray has been to another Masters final and has another 3 hardcourt titles to his name. Titles that he beat Roger, Roddick, Rafa and Verdasco to win.

P_Agony
11-30-2009, 12:42 PM
Resutls wise, Nadal is 1st. You can't argue with a GS title and an MS title. However, performence wise, Nadal is not even top 3, as he lost just about every HC match in recent months to top 10 players and most in straight sets. Performence wise I have to go with Del Potro.

Federer has also seen some good performences like AO (for the most part), USO (for the most part) and Cincy (beating Murray and Djoko in a row) but also very bad ones like Miami, IW, Montreal, Basel final, even WTF one would say.

T1000
11-30-2009, 12:48 PM
Nadal - slam+ms title and reached QF or better
Federer - ms title + two slam finals
Del Potro - slam title
Davydenko - WTF title
Djokovic - US semi
Murray - didn't come up big in the big events

akv89
11-30-2009, 12:49 PM
1. Nadal
2. Del Potro
3. Federer

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 12:51 PM
enough with your strawman - I never said Murray was ahead of any of them but to repeat, if Davy's in the poll then si so is Murray.

It's funny how those guys winning a single masters title is part of the equation but Murray's two wins are disregarded. Must be an easy thing to do - so easy that none of those other guys were able to do it this year.




Enough with my strawman? I'm sorry, I can't use ridiculous logic like you?




Let me lay this out to you :



Andy Murray didn't make it past the 4th round of either HC slam. He won 2 Masters Titles, which is an impressive feat, however it is overshadowed by the fact that :


1. Federer, 1 Master Title and 2 Slam Finals, which overshadows the 2 Master Title wins by quite a large margin.

2. Nadal, 1 Slam and 1 Master Title, wins by a mile over Murray's results.

3. Del Potro 1 Slam, 1 Final at a Masters Tournament, QF in Australia, and good showings at the majority of HC tournaments. Beats Andy Murray's results again.

4. Davydenko, Tennis Masters Cup and a Masters Title. Overshadows Murray's results, again. And not just that, Davydenko beat Nadal, Federer, and Del Potro in the same tournament, all who are slam winners. Wait, what? Murray isn't even close in terms of results.




Wait why should Murray even be on this poll again? Andy Murray isn't on this poll because he doesn't deserve to be even in the same conversation as the best hardcourt player of the year. He has no right, at all. Period.

tomas9848
11-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Fed played great like always. But, he won a clay title and a grass. So he is the best grass player. And he has one 5 US OPENS and a couple Aussie Opens. But, Del Po has played great too. Its really hard but, overall with the Nadal injury and not being 100%. Probably Mr. Roger Federer

batz
11-30-2009, 12:58 PM
Enough with my strawman? I'm sorry, I can't use ridiculous logic like you?




Let me lay this out to you :



Andy Murray didn't make it past the 4th round of either HC slam. He won 2 Masters Titles, which is an impressive feat, however it is overshadowed by the fact that :


1. Federer, 1 Master Title and 2 Slam Finals, which overshadows the 2 Master Title wins by quite a large margin.

2. Nadal, 1 Slam and 1 Master Title, wins by a mile over Murray's results.

3. Del Potro 1 Slam, 1 Final at a Masters Tournament, QF in Australia, and good showings at the majority of HC tournaments. Beats Andy Murray's results again.

4. Davydenko, Tennis Masters Cup and a Masters Title. Overshadows Murray's results, again.



Wait why should Murray even be on this poll again?

Because 2 masters wins and 1 final + 3 other titles > 1 WTF win + 1 Masters + 1 other titles Why? Because it's harder to do.

Murray won more titles on hard than Davy. Murray won more points on hard than Davy. He has a better hard head to head v the rest of the top 10 than Davy. Davy did no better in slams than Murray.

Telepatic
11-30-2009, 01:01 PM
Slam/masters /YEC : Nadal (right after him is Federer with 2 slam finals and 1 masters)

Other: Djokovic/Murray

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:01 PM
Because 2 masters wins and 1 final + 3 other titles > 1 WTF win + 1 Masters + 1 other titles Why? Because it's harder to do.




Says who? You? You call me out on a logical fallacy and now you are using one yourself. The WTF alone is nearly worth 2 Masters in terms of points if I'm not mistaken, and in terms of prestige it's worth way more.



The World Tennis final is also filled with the best players in the world, so it's a totally different atmosphere. Every match is tough, not like in Master Tournaments where sometimes top players can scathe by against lower ranked players. Your argument that what Murray did is harder is absolutely ridiculous.

dlk
11-30-2009, 01:04 PM
I voted JMDP, but that was based on the fall hardcourt season & maybe biased because I saw him play alot (& usually well); but stats previously displayed are contrary.

batz
11-30-2009, 01:09 PM
Says who? You? You call me out on a logical fallacy and now you are using one yourself.

OK - how many guys have won the WTF and a single masters in one year and how does this compare to the number of guys who have won 5 hardcourt titles including 2 MS in a single year?

Guys win 5 hardcourt titles in a single season with 2 MS all the time. I'm sure you'll reel off all the times it's happened. I'll start you off, Murray did it this year and last. Pretty sure Roger will have managed it too. Maybe you've done it as well and I missed it - you seem to think it doesn't reperesent much of an achievement

Rafa hasn't done it once, let alone in back to back years, neither has Novak. Davy of course has never come close, neither has the big guy.

Your'e right - why would doing such an easy thing as winning 2 hardcourt MS plus another 3 hardcourt titles make someone a poll contender for best hardcourt player of the season.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:16 PM
OK - how many guys have won the WTF and a single masters in one year and how does this compare to the number of guys who have won 5 hardcourt titles including 2 MS in a single year?

Guys win 5 hardcourt titles in a single season with 2 MS all the time. I'm sure you'll reel off all the times it's happened. I'll start you off, Murray did it this year and last. Pretty sure Roger will have managed it too. Maybe you've done it as well and I missed it?




So wait, your argument has now come down to what is more difficult to do (which is a preposterous argument since it comes down to a matter of opinion when it is this close)?



I don't dispute that Andy Murray had a very good year on the hardcourts, but he does not deserve to be in the same conversation as any of the players on this poll, with the exception of MAYBE Davydenko. Still, Davydenko missed the AO, Indian Wells, and Miami, 3 tournaments which he consistently performs well at.





Your argument is becoming more desperate and illogical. Roger Federer won 2 Masters and 5 HC titles for years on end. Pretty sure Agassi did it a few times too, as well as Sampras, etc.

batz
11-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Says who? You? You call me out on a logical fallacy and now you are using one yourself. The WTF alone is nearly worth 2 Masters in terms of points if I'm not mistaken, and in terms of prestige it's worth way more.



The World Tennis final is also filled with the best players in the world, so it's a totally different atmosphere. Every match is tough, not like in Master Tournaments where sometimes top players can scathe by against lower ranked players. Your argument that what Murray did is harder is absolutely ridiculous.

The WTF is also a place where you can lose and win the tournament - so spare me the 'it's so tough to win' b/s.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:18 PM
OK - how many guys have won the WTF and a single masters in one year and how does this compare to the number of guys who have won 5 hardcourt titles including 2 MS in a single year?

Guys win 5 hardcourt titles in a single season with 2 MS all the time. I'm sure you'll reel off all the times it's happened. I'll start you off, Murray did it this year and last. Pretty sure Roger will have managed it too. Maybe you've done it as well and I missed it - you seem to think it doesn't reperesent much of an achievement

Rafa hasn't done it once, let alone in back to back years, neither has Novak. Davy of course has never come close, neither has the big guy.

Your'e right - why would doing such an easy thing as winning 2 hardcourt MS plus another 3 hardcourt titles make someone a poll contender for best hardcourt player of the season.



BECAUSE OTHER PLAYERS HAVE BETTER ACHIEVEMENTS LIKE WINNING A FREAKING HARDCOURT SLAM, SOMETHING ANDY MURRAY HAS FAILED TO DO DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU HARP ON THAT HE'S GOD'S GIFT TO THE EARTH.



Wow. I can't believe you can't understand that.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:19 PM
The WTF is also a place where you can lose and win the tournament - so spare me the 'it's so tough to win' b/s.




If it's so easy then how come Andy Murray couldn't do it? He actually should have won it last year had he not made a bone headed move. He didn't win this year because he couldn't win one or two more games. You think winning the World Tennis Final is so easy? Ok, why don't you go face off against the world's best 8 players in a round robin format, and let's see how you do.




Seriously, stop with the sour grapes. Murray isn't in this conversation because he doesn't belong here.

batz
11-30-2009, 01:21 PM
So wait, your argument has now come down to what is more difficult to do (which is a preposterous argument since it comes down to a matter of opinion when it is this close)?



I don't dispute that Andy Murray had a very good year on the hardcourts, but he does not deserve to be in the same conversation as any of the players on this poll, with the exception of MAYBE Davydenko. Still, Davydenko missed the AO, Indian Wells, and Miami, 3 tournaments which he consistently performs well at.





Your argument is becoming more desperate and illogical. Roger Federer won 2 Masters and 5 HC titles for years on end. Pretty sure Agassi did it a few times too, as well as Sampras, etc.

My only (consistent) beef is the notion that Davy should be in the poll and Murray not.

So Federer, Sampras and Agassi were able to do it - not Henman, rusedski etc i.e. you have to be among the best hardcourt players of a given year to have done it. Unless your name's Murray - in that case winning 2 MS and 3 other hard titles ain't no big thing.

T1000
11-30-2009, 01:24 PM
My only (consistent) beef is the notion that Davy should be in the poll and Murray not.

So Federer, Sampras and Agassi were able to do it - not Henman, rusedski etc i.e. you have to be among the best hardcourt players of a given year to have done it. Unless your name's Murray - in that case winning 2 MS and 3 other hard titles ain't no big thing.

So Davy won a bigger title than Murray did. That's why he's in it and not Murray. Murray won more hardcourt tournaments than Del Potro but Delpo is still up there, why, because he won a slam.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:24 PM
My only (consistent) beef is the notion that Davy should be in the poll and Murray not.

So Federer, Sampras and Agassi were able to do it - not Henman, rusedski etc i.e. you have to be among the best hardcourt players of a given year to have done it. Unless your name's Murray - in that case winning 2 MS and 3 other hard titles ain't no big thing.




The reason why his name is not on this poll is because :


A. Players have done better than him on the hardcourts; this is an undisputable fact.

B. He has failed to live up to expectations in the major tournaments, going out early at the USO, the AO, and the World Tennis Final.

C. Davydenko is on this poll because of hype, however, his one World Tennis Final achievement alone is bigger than any single title that Andy Murray has won, and he has a Masters Title on top of that.

D. Agassi in 95 torched the living snot out of Pete Sampras during the North American Hardcourt season. However, Sampras won the USO title that year, and Agassi didn't. Overall, Sampras was the best player during the North American HC season because he won the single major title that everyone was gunning for (and beat Agassi in the final to boot).

batz
11-30-2009, 01:25 PM
If it's so easy then how come Andy Murray couldn't do it? He actually should have won it last year had he not made a bone headed move. He didn't win this year because he couldn't win one or two more games. You think winning the World Tennis Final is so easy? Ok, why don't you go face off against the world's best 8 players in a round robin format, and let's see how you do.




Seriously, stop with the sour grapes. Murray isn't in this conversation because he doesn't belong here.

Again with the strawman. I never said winning the WTF was easy - stop making things up. I said it wasn't as hard to win as you are making out - and the reason for that is that (to repeat) unlike any other tennis tournament, you can lose a match and win the tournament. The field makes it a harder tournament to win. The fact you can lose and win makes an easier tournament to win.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:26 PM
So Davy won a bigger title than Murray did. That's why he's in it and not Murray. Murray won more hardcourt tournaments than Del Potro but Delpo is still up there, why, because he won a slam.



Yet such simple logic doesn't make sense to him.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Again with the strawman. I never said winning the WTF was easy - stop making things up. I said it wasn't as hard to win as you are making out - and the reason for that is that (to repeat) unlike any other tennis tournament, you can lose a match and win the tournament. The field makes it a harder tournament to win. The fact you can lose and win makes an easier tournament to win.




Again with the strawman? You were the one saying that Andy Murray's record is harder to achieve than Davydenko without any real evidence to back it up.




Davydenko is on this poll because he has the biggest title after the slams, and a masters title on top of that. It's essentially a near equivalent of Del Potro's slam and Masters Final.

grafselesfan
11-30-2009, 01:32 PM
My only (consistent) beef is the notion that Davy should be in the poll and Murray not.


Actually I probably shouldnt have included Davydenko on the poll at all. Still you are making a big deal out of nothing. The only 3 real candidates are Del Potro, Nadal, and Federer, with all others far behind. Both Murray and Davydenko have no even decent slam results on hard courts to speak of this year. Djokovic has 1 Masters but nothing big in comparision to Del Potro (U.S Open title), Nadal (Australian Open title), and Federer (Australian and U.S Open finals). I already explained I included Davydenko over the other two based on his TMC title, which for me trumps anything Murray has done this year on hard courts. It was my poll so I get to choose the options, if you disagree with that then fine. In the end he was more of an extra option who almost nobody voted for (just like Murray would have been). If it means that much to you then start a poll on Davydenko vs Murray on hard courts. In the big picture neither are real factors for best hard court player of the year anyway.

batz
11-30-2009, 01:33 PM
The reason why his name is not on this poll is because :


A. Players have done better than him on the hardcourts; this is an undisputable fact.

B. He has failed to live up to expectations in the major tournaments, going out early at the USO, the AO, and the World Tennis Final.

C. Davydenko is on this poll because of hype, however, his one World Tennis Final achievement alone is bigger than any single title that Andy Murray has won, and he has a Masters Title on top of that.

To repeat, this is my only bone of contention. But the question isn't 'who has won the the biggest title' the question is who has been the better player on hardcourts this year?

Now my opinion, is that the consistency required over the year to win 5 titles including 2 MS ( usually by someone who is considered to have had a great hardcourt season that year - as evidenced by the calibre of player that has achieved it previously) >>> winning 3 titles - even if one of them is an Ms and the other is the WTF.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:36 PM
The reason why his name is not on this poll is because :


A. Players have done better than him on the hardcourts; this is an undisputable fact.

B. He has failed to live up to expectations in the major tournaments, going out early at the USO, the AO, and the World Tennis Final.

C. Davydenko is on this poll because of hype, however, his one World Tennis Final achievement alone is bigger than any single title that Andy Murray has won, and he has a Masters Title on top of that.

To repeat, this is my only bone of contention. But the question isn't 'who has won the the biggest title' the question is who has been the better player on hardcourts this year?

Now my opinion, is that the consistency required over the year to win 5 titles including 2 MS ( usually by someone who is considered to have had a great hardcourt season that year - as evidenced by the calibre of player that has achieved it previously) >>> winning 3 titles - even if one of them is an Ms and the other is the WTF.




Davydenko didn't play the first half of the year, so how can you say that he couldn't match Murray's achievements (or be better)?





Regardless or not, as gsf, you are making a big deal out of nothing. Murray isn't even close to being in the conversation as the best HC player.



In fact, Nadal wins this by a mile anyways. 1 Slam, 1 Masters title, 1 SF at the USO, not to mention his consistent results in every other HC tournament.

batz
11-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Again with the strawman? You were the one saying that Andy Murray's record is harder to achieve than Davydenko without any real evidence to back it up.



Davydenko is on this poll because he has the biggest title after the slams, and a masters title on top of that. It's essentially a near equivalent of Del Potro's slam and Masters Final.

Real evidence to back it up? Here's a clue. 5 is a bigger number than 3. Davydenko has never come close to winning 5 hardcourt titles in a season in his career, neither has Djokovic, neither has Nadal - that tells me it might be quite a tough thing to do.

I love how you continue to wheel out others' making an MS final as evidence of achievement but Murray's 2 wins and a final plus 3 other titles don't mean jack.:)

Grafseles has conceded Davy shouldn't have been in the poll. I'm happy with that. I'm off back into my box now.

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 01:47 PM
Real evidence to back it up? Here's a clue. 5 is a bigger number than 3. Davydenko has never come close to winning 5 hardcourt titles in a season in his career, neither has Djokovic, neither has Nadal - that tells me it might be quite a tough thing to do.

I love how you continue to wheel out others' making an MS final as evidence of achievement but Murray's 2 wins and a final plus 3 other titles don't mean jack.:)

Grafseles has conceded Davy shouldn't have been in the poll. I'm happy with that. I'm off back into my box now.



That's evidence? Your love for Murray has totally blinded your logic.

T1000
11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
Real evidence to back it up? Here's a clue. 5 is a bigger number than 3. Davydenko has never come close to winning 5 hardcourt titles in a season in his career, neither has Djokovic, neither has Nadal - that tells me it might be quite a tough thing to do.

I love how you continue to wheel out others' making an MS final as evidence of achievement but Murray's 2 wins and a final plus 3 other titles don't mean jack.:)

Grafseles has conceded Davy shouldn't have been in the poll. I'm happy with that. I'm off back into my box now.

5 is bigger than one, but Delpo has a slam and Murray doesn't. Why not argue about that? Who are people going to remember, Murray for his 5 titles and crap slam performances, or Davy who has 3 titles despite missing the first half of the year and winning the WTF?

p.s. the answer is Davydenko

NamRanger
11-30-2009, 02:13 PM
5 is bigger than one, but Delpo has a slam and Murray doesn't. Why not argue about that? Who are people going to remember, Murray for his 5 titles and crap slam performances, or Davy who has 3 titles despite missing the first half of the year and winning the WTF?

p.s. the answer is Davydenko



Doubt it, most people don't remember when Corretja won the TMC beating Sampras on indoor carpet along the way.

big bang
11-30-2009, 02:17 PM
LOL fed got more votes than rafa, that really shows the stupidity and ignorance around here:)
1 slam + 1 ms is the best anyone has achieved this year, the poll was not who you like best or who you worship before going to sleep..

brc444
11-30-2009, 08:47 PM
With all those bad losses -- no way it's Nadal.

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 08:52 PM
With all those bad losses -- no way it's Nadal.

Nadal didn't really have any bad losses, at least rank wise, this year on HC. He didn't lose to anyone outside of the top 10, on HC.

flying24
11-30-2009, 08:54 PM
I am surprised Federer has that many more votes than Del Potro.

flying24
11-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Nadal didn't really have any bad losses, at least rank wise, this year on HC. He didn't lose to anyone outside of the top 10, on HC.

That is true. It was a complete joke he didnt in Paris, but a result is a result.

brc444
11-30-2009, 09:23 PM
I guess I have a different definition of a bad loss -- I consider his last 4 losses in straight sets to be bad losses even if the players were in the top 8. I would consider his loss to Del Potro in the US open 6-2, 6-2, 6-2 to be a bad loss -- wouldn't you?

jamesblakefan#1
11-30-2009, 09:26 PM
I guess I have a different definition of a bad loss -- I consider his last 4 losses in straight sets to be bad losses even if the players were in the top 8. I would consider his loss to Del Potro in the US open 6-2, 6-2, 6-2 to be a bad loss -- wouldn't you?

Yeah sure but that doesn't cancel out his GS title and MS title.

JMDP lost to a guy not even top 100 in Tokyo, I'd say that's far worse than any loss Nadal had all year.

big bang
11-30-2009, 09:27 PM
I guess I have a different definition of a bad loss -- I consider his last 4 losses in straight sets to be bad losses even if the players were in the top 8. I would consider his loss to Del Potro in the US open 6-2, 6-2, 6-2 to be a bad loss -- wouldn't you?

no matter what he still had the best results.. 1 slam + 1 ms title.

TMF
11-30-2009, 09:28 PM
LOL fed got more votes than rafa, that really shows the stupidity and ignorance around here:)
1 slam + 1 ms is the best anyone has achieved this year, the poll was not who you like best or who you worship before going to sleep..

You really selling Roger short here. He also won a hardcourt slam + ms. And did better than him at WTF. So voting him over Rafa is nothing wrong.

I didn't even bother to vote.

abmk
11-30-2009, 09:28 PM
nadal. if potro had won WTF, he'd be my pick ...

fed and davy shouldn't even be in the poll IMO.

abmk
11-30-2009, 09:30 PM
You really selling Roger short here. He also won a hardcourt slam + ms. And did better than him at WTF. So voting him over Rafa is nothing wrong.

I didn't even bother to vote.

umm, hello , this is 2009. fed did NOT win a HC slam

brc444
11-30-2009, 09:41 PM
Big Bang: In determining who is the best mens hard court player of 2009, why do you count only two of Nadal's results and no other results? He was the best hard court player for those 2 tournaments but not for 2009.

Agassifan
11-30-2009, 09:42 PM
Nadal's losses on HC in 2009:

RR Robin Soderling (SWE) 9 L 4-6, 4-6 Stats

RR Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 7 L 1-6, 6-7(4) Stats

RR Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 6-7(5), 3-6 Stats

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 L 2-6, 3-6

F Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 8 L 6-7(3), 3-6 Stats

S Marin Cilic (CRO) 15 L 1-6, 3-6

S Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 2-6, 2-6, 2-6

S Novak Djokovic (SRB) 4 L 1-6, 4-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 6 L 6-7(5), 1-6

Q Juan Martin Del Potro (ARG) 7 L 4-6, 6-3, 6-7(3)

F Andy Murray (GBR) 4 L 3-6, 6-4, 0-6

Q Gael Monfils (FRA) 13 L 4-6, 4-6


So the answer is NO. Nadal is NOT the best HC player of 2009.

this is the answer to the question

FedGod
11-30-2009, 09:47 PM
the answer is obviously Nadal, del Potro is a close second.

big bang
12-01-2009, 02:40 AM
Big Bang: In determining who is the best mens hard court player of 2009, why do you count only two of Nadal's results and no other results? He was the best hard court player for those 2 tournaments but not for 2009.
very simple he won better titles than the rest, Im just mentioning his top results. he was a finalist in shanghai and made semis an quarters in every other tournament. he accomplished more than any other player even though he lost many matches lately. the results speak for them self, not h2h or any other BS..

big bang
12-01-2009, 02:47 AM
You really selling Roger short here. He also won a hardcourt slam + ms. And did better than him at WTF. So voting him over Rafa is nothing wrong.

I didn't even bother to vote.

could you please tell me what HC-slam Roger won this year?:) maybe one of those slams I never heard of?? the Swiss cheese open perhaps, you know that one? its played on a new HC surface made from a mix of swiss cheese and cement, its the best I tell you:)

zagor
12-01-2009, 02:58 AM
very simple he won better titles than the rest, Im just mentioning his top results. he was a finalist in shanghai and made semis an quarters in every other tournament. he accomplished more than any other player even though he lost many matches lately. the results speak for them self, not h2h or any other BS..

So H2H is BS when it comes to Nadal and only results matter? Interesting.

I agree however that Nadal is the best HC player this year without a doubt,I would give it to Delpo if he won WTF(which is the biggest tourney after slams for me) but Kolja dispatched him in straights in the final.

For me it's:

1-Nadal
2-Delpo
3-Fed

As far as HC go this year.

big bang
12-01-2009, 03:07 AM
So H2H is BS when it comes to Nadal and only results matter? Interesting.

I agree however that Nadal is the best HC player this year without a doubt,I would give it to Delpo if he won WTF(which is the biggest tourney after slams for me) but Kolja dispatched him in straights in the final.

For me it's:

1-Nadal
2-Delpo
3-Fed

As far as HC go this year.

its the same for every player when you look at results.. I agree with your post, I rank them the same way and Delpo would have been #1 if he had won WTF.

Spider
12-01-2009, 07:29 AM
One fluke slam win and Del Potro is added to the poll? One slam means nothing, even Johansson won it once. It is about being consistent throughout the year. Murray is way better than Del Potro at that.

Murray had a more consistent year and deserves to be in that poll. I would rate Nadal and Federer above Murray but the rest definitely don't deserve to be above him.

jamesblakefan#1
12-01-2009, 07:31 AM
One fluke slam win and Del Potro is added to the poll? One slam means nothing, even Johansson won it once. It is about being consistent throughout the year. Murray is way better than Del Potro at that.

Murray had a more consistent year and deserves to be in that poll. I would rate Nadal and Federer above Murray but the rest definitely don't deserve to be above him.

FAIL.
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-
-

Spider
12-01-2009, 07:37 AM
FAIL.
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-
-

You can call it whatever you want, Del Potro winning a single event doesn't put him over someone who has performed consistently throughout the year.

jamesblakefan#1
12-01-2009, 07:40 AM
You can call it whatever you want, Del Potro winning a single event doesn't put him over someone who has performed consistently throughout the year.

Murray didn't even make a HC slam QF, JMDP made both HC slam QFs and won a slam. No reasonable poster would say a guy with 0 slams had a better year than a guy who won a slam, fluke or no fluke. (Which it wasn't.)

Spider
12-01-2009, 07:43 AM
Murray didn't even make a HC slam QF, JMDP made both HC slam QFs and won a slam. No reasonable poster would say a guy with 0 slams had a better year than a guy who won a slam, fluke or no fluke. (Which it wasn't.)

Do you even know in what condition Murray played those two events that you talk about? Winning US open with an injured wrist and the AO while being sick, yes that is easy to do.

The fact is Murray wasn't fit enough during the two most important tournaments and as a result couldn't perform as many had hoped he would. Despite all this, he has been a very consistent player throughout the year and deserves to be on this poll.

jamesblakefan#1
12-01-2009, 07:46 AM
Do you even know in what condition Murray played those two events that you talk about? Winning US open with an injured wrist and the AO while being sick, yes that is easy to do.

The fact is Murray wasn't fit enough during the two most important tournaments and as a result couldn't perform as many had hoped he would. Despite all this, he has been a very consistent player throughout the year and deserves to be on this poll.

Nadal was more consistent than Murray on HC, never losing before the QF of an event, and had a slam.

I'm not going to indulge you any more, Mur-troll.

Spider
12-01-2009, 07:49 AM
Nadal was more consistent than Murray on HC, never losing before the QF of an event, and had a slam.

I'm not going to indulge you any more, Mur-troll.

Where am I saying Murray deserves to be above Federer or Nadal? I was clear earlier that only Federer and Nadal deserve to be mentioned above Murray and not the rest. So if Davydenko and Del Potro are added to this conversation, surely Murray deserves to be there as well.

jazzyfunkybluesy
12-01-2009, 08:32 AM
Del Potro overall.

brc444
12-01-2009, 05:25 PM
I voted for Del Potro. His hard court results are good with titles in US Open and Washington and Finalist in Canada and Tour Finals. While Nadal and Fed had good results as well, I think Del Potrop's h2h over Fed 2-1 (winning last 2) and Nadal 3-1 (winning last 3) puts him ahead as the best hard court player of 2009.

lambielspins
12-01-2009, 06:26 PM
Murray didn't even make a HC slam QF, JMDP made both HC slam QFs and won a slam. No reasonable poster would say a guy with 0 slams had a better year than a guy who won a slam, fluke or no fluke. (Which it wasn't.)

Murray did completely own Del Potro head to head on hard courts in 2009 though, and has their whole careers up to now. That might well be something people consider. In Canada Del Potro played a great tournament, crushing Nadal and outplaying Roddick at his best, he was really in top form there and yet still wasnt able to finish off a sluggish Murray in the final. Other than the U.S Open title Murray had it all over Del Potro on hard courts this year. Granted that U.S Open title is a big something which is why I would rate Del Potro higher than Murray on hard courts for the year, but I also see where those who have it the other way are coming from.

Ambivalent
12-01-2009, 06:27 PM
I mean on top of his AO title and MS title, obviously. :roll:

He's been the most consistent HC player all season.

Right, by losing all three of his matches at the YEC 8)

jamesblakefan#1
12-01-2009, 08:45 PM
Murray did completely own Del Potro head to head on hard courts in 2009 though, and has their whole careers up to now. That might well be something people consider. In Canada Del Potro played a great tournament, crushing Nadal and outplaying Roddick at his best, he was really in top form there and yet still wasnt able to finish off a sluggish Murray in the final. Other than the U.S Open title Murray had it all over Del Potro on hard courts this year. Granted that U.S Open title is a big something which is why I would rate Del Potro higher than Murray on hard courts for the year, but I also see where those who have it the other way are coming from.

Agree w/ most of your post, just wanted to point out JMDP was no spring chicken in that Canada final either. Had won DC in tough conditions the week before, had played Roddick in a tight match the night before the final. He had a great tourney, but to say his effort vs Murray in that final was anywhere near his best is a slight misrepresentation. Granted he still had the chance to take that match in the 2nd set TB, just ran out of gas in the end. Even had to pull out of Cincy (the 5th slam) the week after.

veroniquem
12-01-2009, 09:03 PM
There was not 1 clearly dominant hard court player this year. Neither Murray nor Djokovic were particularly convincing in the 2 hard court slams this year. Federer was a little more performant in the slams (2 finals) but still has only 1 title on hard court to his name for the entire year (while Murray, Djoko and Davydenko all have scored several titles on hard). Delpo won 1 slam but still has failed to pocket a single master shield on hard. Despite his poor performance at WTF, I would have to say Rafa because he's the only guy who won 1 slam AND 1 master shield on hard (+ a master final in Shanghai) in 2009.

bladepdb
12-01-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm not a Fed hater but he doesn't deserve all these votes after the fact that he did not win any hardcourt slams this year. Sure he made the finals but then you toss in the other hard corut event results, and Nadal cleanly surpasses Federer here in terms of TMC events.

Djokovic should be on the list here...

MuseFan
12-01-2009, 09:08 PM
There was not 1 clearly dominant hard court player this year. Neither Murray nor Djokovic were particularly convincing in the 2 hard court slams this year. Federer was a little more performant in the slams (2 finals) but still has only 1 title on hard court to his name for the entire year (while Murray, Djoko and Davydenko all have scored several titles on hard). Delpo won 1 slam but still has failed to pocket a single master shield on hard. Despite his poor performance at WTF, I would have to say Rafa because he's the only guy who won 1 slam AND 1 master shield on hard (+ a master final in Shanghai) in 2009.

Yeah, I'd have to say Rafa by the thinnest hair for 2009 on HC.

grafselesfan
12-01-2009, 09:09 PM
I might as well redo the list with all of Davydenko, Djokovic, and Murray although I really feel none of the 3 have a claim. I agree with veroniquem's accessment by the way.

zagor
12-01-2009, 10:17 PM
Murray did completely own Del Potro head to head on hard courts in 2009 though, and has their whole careers up to now. That might well be something people consider. In Canada Del Potro played a great tournament, crushing Nadal and outplaying Roddick at his best, he was really in top form there and yet still wasnt able to finish off a sluggish Murray in the final. Other than the U.S Open title Murray had it all over Del Potro on hard courts this year. Granted that U.S Open title is a big something which is why I would rate Del Potro higher than Murray on hard courts for the year, but I also see where those who have it the other way are coming from.

Yeah,Murray does own Delpo on HC completely,no question about it but any player would take a USO title over a H2H record in a heartbeat.Overall yes Murray won more HC titles and handled Delpo on HC each time but that USO title kinda overshadows all of that,unfair to Murray perhaps but that's the way most people see things in tennis.

grafselesfan
12-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Yeah,Murray does own Delpo on HC completely,no question about it but any player would take a USO title over a H2H record in a heartbeat.Overall yes Murray won more HC titles and handled Delpo on HC each time but that USO title kinda overshadows all of that,unfair to Murray perhaps but that's the way most people see things in tennis.

I think the best way to look at it perhaps is 20 years from now what did the player accomplish on that surface this year that will add most to their overall career. In that case the only answers could be Del Potro or Nadal. Some people look at Masters titles, so in that sense it could be argued an additional slam and an additional Masters added the most. Then again often people dont even go that far, in which case it would be Del Potro as the U.S Open is taken over the Australian Open all things being equal, and both beat Federer in the finals. I dont think it likely would be Federer as people dont really look at an additional 2 slam finals much many years from now, if anything only looked at negatively since you are this all time great who added a finals loss to so and so, almost better to not reach them at all for people like him if you dont win as strange as that sounds. Murray and Djokovic while they did some nice things this year on hard courts, they are things that wont register much if any in the big picture of their careers 20 years from now, unless either have a dissapointing career from here. Davydenko's biggest achievements this year will register strongly 20 years from now in evaluating his career and comparing to players of similar ilk most likely, but that is because he isnt going to have the career of any of those others I mentioned barring a big surprise. So overall it also it depends who it is. When it is guys who will end their careers with many slams though it doesnt go beyond things like that. Nobody talks much about all the slam finals Lendl reached, all the slam semifinals Connors was in, and that Lendl and Connors won more tournaments than anyone else in the Open Era. On the other hand when you are comparing very good players who end their careers with 0 or 1 slams then they look more in depth at things like Slam semis, Masters finals, small tournament wins in comparing them. It is kind of like when people compare Sabatini to Novotna or Conchita Martinez, those are the sort of things you look at. It seems likely Del Potro is on his way to a more successful career than those people though, and unless he dissapoints greatly probably Djokovic as well. Murray is in real danger of ending with a career similar to players like that if he doesnt step it up in the biggest events pretty soon though.