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Topaz
12-02-2009, 10:22 AM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes? Anyone else tired of checking their email and seeing an inbox full of complaints (as if I can do anything about it)? Anyone else tired of people talking smack about 3.5 players, and then complaining when they get bumped to 4.0? Anyone else tired of people saying 'well gosh, I went undefeated...how did I get bumped up'? Anyone else tired of people complaining that they can't appeal back down after being rightfully bumped up?

If so, this is the thread for you!!!!

No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh

*awaiting the flames...

sphinx780
12-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Seems like we finally have a rating thread worth reading :)

JoelDali
12-02-2009, 10:34 AM
We're all headed to 2.0 Nationals in the van now. Its like the Bad News Bears for tennis I tell ya. Playboys and Fried Chicken.

If I win a pen I will dedicate it to Cindy or that cool old dude.

http://tommee.net/His%20Blog/uploaded_images/amanda4-794369.jpg

sphinx780
12-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Gotta love all the hate we see about how the rating system needed to be changed because it's broken...so they change it. Wait! You can't do that, that's not the way to change it! Go back to the way we hated it originally!!!

Cindysphinx
12-02-2009, 10:38 AM
We're all headed to 2.0 Nationals in the van now. Its like the Bad News Bears for tennis I tell ya. Playboys and Fried Chicken.

If I win a pen I will dedicate it to Cindy or that cool old dude.

http://tommee.net/His%20Blog/uploaded_images/amanda4-794369.jpg

Awesome!! Try to swipe a second pen and send it along to me.

Topaz
12-02-2009, 11:21 AM
To be clear...it isn't just the whining on here that has gotten to me...but seriously...the emails!!! People!!! They need to go get out of the house or get a job or volunteer or *something*!

And, it isn't jealously...not at all. I'm quite happy to stay right where I am, and didn't expect anything else, given my losing record last year. I won some, I lost some...I'm about as 3.5 as you can possibly get!

Kostas
12-02-2009, 11:25 AM
In my admittedly limited experience from what I can tell these changes really constricted the skill discrepancies in the 3.5 level in my area. The difference between the best and worst 3.5s is now much smaller than it used to be (which is a good thing).

On the down side...it has practically wiped out 3.0 and 2.5 tennis in my area. There just aren't going to be enough players to field a team this year because they're all literally 3.5s now. We had two 3.0 teams last year.

Topaz
12-02-2009, 11:34 AM
On the down side...it has practically wiped out 3.0 and 2.5 tennis in my area. There just aren't going to be enough players to field a team this year because they're all literally 3.5s now. We had two 3.0 teams last year.

That happened to women's 2.5 in my area a few years ago...but if people merit being moved up to 3.0, they shouldn't be held back in order keep enough numbers to field a team. The idea is to play where you are competitive. Hopefully this will continue to be cyclical (as it seems it always is) or the 2.5s and 3.0s can play up.

JRstriker12
12-02-2009, 11:43 AM
No whine here. I've wanted this for a while.

If I get whooped up on in 4.0 play, so be it. I think I might be okay in dubs depending on my partner, but don't know if I'll get to play much or any singles. I usually played #1 singles at 3.5.

Haven't seen much whining from the people on my team that also got the bump.

Only whining I've seen is on the TW boards.

Kostas
12-02-2009, 11:49 AM
That happened to women's 2.5 in my area a few years ago...but if people merit being moved up to 3.0, they shouldn't be held back in order keep enough numbers to field a team. The idea is to play where you are competitive. Hopefully this will continue to be cyclical (as it seems it always is) or the 2.5s and 3.0s can play up.

Well the merit of being moved up seems to be somewhat arbitrary depending on how USTA feels any given year...I'm relatively new to tennis so I don't know what happened years ago and what not. I do know that had this been last year that at least 50% of the "new" 3.5s would be still be 3.0s and they would merit being 3.0s based on what the skill spectrum looked like back then.

Unfortunately I disagree with you the 2.5s and 3.0s playing up because most of them (whoever they are) will have to come into league play as self-rated players and will risk dynamic DQ's if they play up.

Topaz
12-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Well the merit of being moved up seems to be somewhat arbitrary depending on how USTA feels any given year...I'm relatively new to tennis so I don't know what happened years ago and what not. I do know that had this been last year that at least 50% of the "new" 3.5s would be still be 3.0s and they would merit being 3.0s based on what the skill spectrum looked like back then.

It actually isn't arbitrary at all (despite what you may read on here and except for the few weird cases that you will find here and there)...the bumps are based on results. It appears they tweaked the formula to adjust some areas (such as the back up at 3.5), but even still...it is a mathematical formula based on the rating you generate as you play through the season.

Unfortunately I disagree with you the 2.5s and 3.0s playing up because most of them (whoever they are) will have to come into league play as self-rated players and will risk dynamic DQ's if they play up.

But if they are playing up and not at their own level, a DQ at their own level won't affect anything. For example, a 2.5 playing only 3.0 who gets DQ'd at 2.5 still gets to keep on playing at 3.0. If someone who self-rates plays up and does well enough to get the DQ, then they self-rated too low and should be playing up anyway.

SteveI
12-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes? Anyone else tired of checking their email and seeing an inbox full of complaints (as if I can do anything about it)? Anyone else tired of people talking smack about 3.5 players, and then complaining when they get bumped to 4.0? Anyone else tired of people saying 'well gosh, I went undefeated...how did I get bumped up'? Anyone else tired of people complaining that they can't appeal back down after being rightfully bumped up?

If so, this is the thread for you!!!!

No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh


*awaiting the flames...

Topaz,

Are you a team captain or league coordinator? Or are these just team members or friends?

Yes.. at the end of the day "YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS". Wow.. I might lose sleep over being a 3.5 vs a 4.0.. Yikes

How are my x-mas cookies coming? :-)

Steve

Blade0324
12-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Sign me up to be sick of the whiners. my team has been emailing me like crazy. What is the team gonna do, this. Are you gonna captain, that. Those that didn't get bumped don't want to play up but don't want a bunch of recently bumped 3.0's either. Bla Bla Bla. Just go play tennis you sissy's.

catfish
12-02-2009, 12:19 PM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes? Anyone else tired of checking their email and seeing an inbox full of complaints (as if I can do anything about it)? Anyone else tired of people talking smack about 3.5 players, and then complaining when they get bumped to 4.0? Anyone else tired of people saying 'well gosh, I went undefeated...how did I get bumped up'? Anyone else tired of people complaining that they can't appeal back down after being rightfully bumped up?

If so, this is the thread for you!!!!

No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh



*awaiting the flames...


Yes!! I'm with you. I think a lot of people that got bumped up are upset that they will no longer be able to dominate their level and they just can't take it. And as always, if people don't like something they say it's "unfair".

Topaz
12-02-2009, 12:20 PM
Topaz,

Are you a team captain or league coordinator? Or are these just team members or friends?

Yes.. at the end of the day "YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS". Wow.. I might lose sleep over being a 3.5 vs a 4.0.. Yikes

How are my x-mas cookies coming? :-)

Steve

I have captained and co-captained, but the emails came from a team where I was just a member, and it has been circulating around...insane!

I think some people are losing sleep over this...that's the thing! I have plenty of other things to lose sleep over, my rating is way on the bottom of the list. Though, I did come close to this feeling the year I thought I was going to be dropped back to 3.0...and then I realized that even if that happened...I STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS! :) In fact, I probably would have been in high demand (or I'd like to think so!).

Good news...the pumpkin oatmeal cookies were a hit! LOL

Sign me up to be sick of the whiners. my team has been emailing me like crazy. What is the team gonna do, this. Are you gonna captain, that. Those that didn't get bumped don't want to play up but don't want a bunch of recently bumped 3.0's either. Bla Bla Bla. Just go play tennis you sissy's.

Ok, good, I'm not the only one getting emails!

JavierLW
12-02-2009, 12:23 PM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes? Anyone else tired of checking their email and seeing an inbox full of complaints (as if I can do anything about it)? Anyone else tired of people talking smack about 3.5 players, and then complaining when they get bumped to 4.0? Anyone else tired of people saying 'well gosh, I went undefeated...how did I get bumped up'? Anyone else tired of people complaining that they can't appeal back down after being rightfully bumped up?

If so, this is the thread for you!!!!

No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh

*awaiting the flames...

Ha, I was just thinking Im getting annoyed at the 8 different emails from various USTA sources announcing the "new" ratings changes.

(all are the very same text that was discovered here on the MSTennis.com website a week ago)

I think I do have one legitimate guy though that got screwed by this believe it or not.

But my explanation to him is this:

When humans used to maintain this (especially when it came to appeals) you have players who abuse the system and you had coordinators who would also abuse the system in a lot of cases and give out appeals like hotcakes (and ratings before that when we had rating clinics).

You also had people sandbagging and working their scores as well.

In our area a local club coordinator actually admitted in a USTA last year that they encourage their players to doctor the scores so they dont get moved up. (because they feel it's not "fair" if they get moved up because they cant get past sectionals or wherever)

So you'd like to have some common sense and have an actual human review your case but they cant be trusted so they took a very DRASTIC step to take care of that.

So if he wants to blame anyone he can blame all of those people for not being honest and ruining it for people like him who maybe really deserved an appeal. (he's like 5'0", uses a two handed forehand, he has no serve, but somehow runs around everywhere and pushes everything back and now he's 4.0 from just playing 3 matches!!!)

It's not really all that different from society and for those of you who want to whine and complain yourselves that we're not all being "grey" but some people want to be honest and stick strictly with the rules, this should be a little social lesson for you....

sphinx780
12-02-2009, 12:25 PM
Put me down in the email reception line...not a captain, just seem to be a lot of invested people. At this point I think I'm going to break out an old Seinfeld play in response to emails as they did to someone who sneezes.

Sender: Can you believe I got bumped up, now I can't play with my mixed team!

Reply: You're sooooo good lookin.

sphinx780
12-02-2009, 12:31 PM
So if he wants to blame anyone he can blame all of those people for not being honest

They don't make rules in reaction to the honest people...same thing I get to tell clients all the time.

Funny thing, I hear you describe the game of this player and think...there's a lot of 4.0 guys that could easily beat themselves against someone with that style too...now he gets a season to see where he stacks up.

ksteph
12-02-2009, 12:31 PM
I have never seen so many emails/comments "How did he/she move up?", "I don't know how I moved up", "So and so had this amount of wins and so and so didn't, why, how, why, how, why?". I had 20 emails yesterday! This is ridiculous! In all my years of playing USTA, I had never heard this many complaints about ratings. Like Topaz says,


It's all about playing tennis!

sphinx780
12-02-2009, 12:33 PM
It's all about playing tennis!

Exactly...there are much worse things you could be doing than playing a tennis match.

catfish
12-02-2009, 12:38 PM
Ha, I was just thinking Im getting annoyed at the 8 different emails from various USTA sources announcing the "new" ratings changes.

(all are the very same text that was discovered here on the MSTennis.com website a week ago)

I think I do have one legitimate guy though that got screwed by this believe it or not.

But my explanation to him is this:

When humans used to maintain this (especially when it came to appeals) you have players who abuse the system and you had coordinators who would also abuse the system in a lot of cases and give out appeals like hotcakes (and ratings before that when we had rating clinics).

You also had people sandbagging and working their scores as well.

In our area a local club coordinator actually admitted in a USTA last year that they encourage their players to doctor the scores so they dont get moved up. (because they feel it's not "fair" if they get moved up because they cant get past sectionals or wherever)

So you'd like to have some common sense and have an actual human review your case but they cant be trusted so they took a very DRASTIC step to take care of that.

So if he wants to blame anyone he can blame all of those people for not being honest and ruining it for people like him who maybe really deserved an appeal. (he's like 5'0", uses a two handed forehand, he has no serve, but somehow runs around everywhere and pushes everything back and now he's 4.0 from just playing 3 matches!!!)

It's not really all that different from society and for those of you who want to whine and complain yourselves that we're not all being "grey" but some people want to be honest and stick strictly with the rules, this should be a little social lesson for you....

You got that right! The current system is much more trustworthy than relying on people. I became involved in leagues about 2 years before TennisLink came along. And unfortunately, there were some shenanigans going on with some human verifiers and league coordinators. (Not all by any means, but some.) TennisLink and the Dynamic NTRP system are not perfect, but they are so much more reliable than the old paper system. With the old paper system you could have scorecards not getting turned in at all (which affected ratings), scores tampered with, non-rostered players playing in matches, falsified league standings, etc., etc. By the time I became a local coordinator, we had TennisLink and USTa websites, so things were MUCH better.

Topaz
12-02-2009, 12:42 PM
NTRP isn't perfect, but for the majority, it works. And right now, it is the best thing we have.

Javier, I have a friend, too, that I was stunned about and I think she got screwed (by not being bumped). But you know what...she's still gonna play 4.0! And anyone who bothered to look up her record would not have a problem with the 3.5 that is still next to her name.

Cindysphinx
12-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Dang. No one is e-mailing me. :(

Topaz
12-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Dang. No one is e-mailing me. :(

Really? Lol, trust me, you're not missing anything!

SteveI
12-02-2009, 01:37 PM
Really? Lol, trust me, you're not missing anything!

Topaz,

Forward those emails to Cindy.. she feels unloved.. :-)

Annika
12-02-2009, 02:18 PM
This is a great thread because yesterday morning my daughter called and said: "Mom, 4 on my team made 3.5, so the whole team now plays 3.5". Okee dokee!

So off I went to my dentist appt. My dentist (she) also plays USTA (3.5). And while she was looking at my teeth, with her mask on, she says: "Have you seen the ratings?" :-? Then we spent the rest of my appointment time talking about tennis. I had to laugh, she also mentioned some of her team mates moved up to 4.0 but she didn't. And while I couldn't speak because she was working on my tooth, she was saying how much more she liked doubles because of the social aspect...knowing I am a singles player. I kept grunting and shaking my head.

OrangePower
12-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes?...

Yup, I've heard lots of complaints, and yup, I'm tired of hearing them. Not like there's anything we can do about it, right?

Actually the reactions I've heard from my 4.0 (now 4.5) teammates have been split almost 50/50 between those that are happy and those that are peeved.

The happy ones, myself included, see this as an opportunity to challenge ourselves at the 4.5 level.

The ones that are peeved think there is no way that they can hang at that level. And to be fair to them, they have a point:

4.5 is now a very broad level, at least here in Norcal. Not many got bumped from 4.5 to 5.0, so at the upper end of 4.5 you find ex-D1 college players in their 40's. At the lower end you now have ex 4.0 'pusher' types, who don't have the fundamentals to improve much further. That's where things are going to get ugly...

cak
12-02-2009, 03:58 PM
No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh

*awaiting the flames...

If only. I'm the USTA coordinator at a small club. Before the great bump of 2010 we has a robust stable of about a dozen 3.0 guys, half of whom you could count on to be available for most mixed matches. That number has dropped to 5 3.0 guys, only one of which is dedicated to playing USTA. That's not enough for a mixed 6.0 team. On the other hand, I still have a dozen 3.0 women ready and willing and wanting to play 6.0 mixed. For some reason, at our club, the men were bumped willy nilly, yet in the women sector there were very few bumps. (I believe 2 to 3.5, and 2 to 4.0)

And I have a 7.0 mixed captain that was short a few 3.5 men who I thought would be thrilled to pick up some new recruits, but somehow, not so much.

So I'm afraid with the new ratings, no, some people don't get to play tennis.

JavierLW
12-02-2009, 05:48 PM
Funny thing, I hear you describe the game of this player and think...there's a lot of 4.0 guys that could easily beat themselves against someone with that style too...now he gets a season to see where he stacks up.

Maybe there are in the "new 4.0". :-)

But otherwise at least in our area I cant imagine there was hardly any legitimate 4.0 player that would lose to this guy. Usually they either have big enough weapons that he cant simply run everything down, or they themselves are very steady so they play his same game but with weapons. (I call them super-counterpunchers although the "super" part is from a 3.5 perspective, it means the weapons they pull out when they need too are mighter then this guy possesses)

This guy could pick up the ball and throw it into the service box and he'd be a lot better off, that's how bad his serve is. But in singles he gets away with at 3.5 because he can run almost any return down. (and 3.5 players have trouble returning extremely slow and short serves sometimes)

In doubles (even at 3.5) it's horrible because it screws up his partner and even he cant cover an entire doubles court by himself. Typically the partner ends up being a statue because they have to deal with watching the serve fall a mere 3 feet in front of them and they cant do anything because there is no time.

But it's December 2nd and we dont really start our league until mid May. So I told him that he had better play some tournaments, challenge ladders whatever and prove himself in those, because otherwise he's going to have a heck of a time even getting on a 4.0 team.

(but to make it worse even when he does beat people they typically dont respect him or give him any credit for him, I guess that's the problem with having that sort of game)

JavierLW
12-02-2009, 05:52 PM
If only. I'm the USTA coordinator at a small club. Before the great bump of 2010 we has a robust stable of about a dozen 3.0 guys, half of whom you could count on to be available for most mixed matches. That number has dropped to 5 3.0 guys, only one of which is dedicated to playing USTA. That's not enough for a mixed 6.0 team. On the other hand, I still have a dozen 3.0 women ready and willing and wanting to play 6.0 mixed. For some reason, at our club, the men were bumped willy nilly, yet in the women sector there were very few bumps. (I believe 2 to 3.5, and 2 to 4.0)

And I have a 7.0 mixed captain that was short a few 3.5 men who I thought would be thrilled to pick up some new recruits, but somehow, not so much.

So I'm afraid with the new ratings, no, some people don't get to play tennis.

Well then your club needs to promote itself and get some more members and encourage them to get involved in playing league tennis.

Too many areas just look at the players who are currently playing rather then try to get new players and that's really why there is a shortage of the lower level players. It was shrinking in our area before this huge overhaul and if you see who's there it's the same exact people every year, nobody new.

And the local coordinators here sound the same. They just want to run leagues and they blame people getting moved up for not being able to run certain levels rather then spending more resources to find new players.

(I believe there are tons of them out there, they just dont have the means any longer to get on a team)

Wakenslam
12-03-2009, 11:01 AM
Isn't the idea of playing tennis to have fun and improve your game? Why in the world would someone complain about getting bumped up? It doesn't make sense to me.

I wanted to get bumped from 4.0 to 4.5, and only lost 1 match all last year at 4.0 (two leagues.) I guess the guys I beat weren't rated high enough? Anyway, I'll try again this year to make 4.5.

Mick
12-03-2009, 11:20 AM
i can understand why some people don't like to get bumped up.

being a 3.5 is not too bad if you win most of your matches and being a 4.0 is not too good if you lose most of your matches.

people like to play tennis but they want to win, not lose most of the time.

JavierLW
12-03-2009, 01:19 PM
people like to play tennis but they want to win, not lose most of the time.

Yes but some people take that as a challenge and work to improve their game and fix it so they are not "losing all the time" and some people would rather just stay where they are where they win all the time.

I think if someone is that miserable where their only real goal is to win constantly then they dont really enjoy what they are doing in the first place...

Cindysphinx
12-03-2009, 01:43 PM
OK, the e-mails are coming in finally.

Teams are breaking up.

Players who got bumped are scrambling for a new team.

Players who got bumped down are begging for mercy.

I don't have time for this crap . . .

Topaz
12-03-2009, 03:16 PM
I don't have time for this crap . . .

Lol, now you see where I was coming from...something along the lines of 'stop the insanity'!

Though, I got a very nice offer in my email today, and I took it!!! Not sure how it will work out scheduling wise (what with work, school, a children's musical, and a need for sleep) but we'll see in the spring.

Cindysphinx
12-03-2009, 03:38 PM
My DC team just dissolved today.

I think I am going to skip DC for the spring. I'll have a 3.5 team and a 4.0 team to play on in our county. Really, that should be plenty.

Topaz
12-03-2009, 03:43 PM
My DC team just dissolved today.

I think I am going to skip DC for the spring. I'll have a 3.5 team and a 4.0 team to play on in our county. Really, that should be plenty.

Not surprised, but you already know how I feel about that!

Sure about DC? I'm gonna see LN tomorrow...we only lost 2 (and one more who won't be coming back).

Cindysphinx
12-03-2009, 04:39 PM
Eh, I'm never sure. We should talk off-line . . .

Casey10s
12-03-2009, 05:49 PM
I got moved back to 4.5 after 2 years of 4.0. I am not sure how really. Must have been my match scores. I didn't win a match at 4.5 and split at 4.0 singles and won both of my senior doubles. Played on a 9.0 mixed and went 2-3 matched up with a 5.0 girl where we mostly played #1. But I guess they must of look at the scores. I played 2 matches at #1 doubles for 4.5 and had 2 highly competitive matches, one went to 3 sets. For the opposing team in those matches, one of the guys on each team got moved to 5.0. When I played at #3 doubles, mostly got whipped due to being matched up with mid-4.0 players. Our 4.5 team wasn't very good.

Do your records count from non-NTRP tournaments? In a final in sectional doubles, we beat a guy who won 3 doubles matches at 4.5 at the sectionals and 3 at the Nationals. I also had 2 wins at national age bracket tournaments. Almost seems they had to look at those.

I am fine being moved up but I guess I will only be on 1 team instead of 4 unless we get a 4.5 seniors team. I don't think I will be on the 9.0 Mixed since I will be one of the weaker guys on the present team. I was on the roster since I could play with the 5.0 girls on the team.

I get tired of all the complaining of the ratings. People complain about people who should be moved up until they become the one getting moved and then it is unfair.

10sguy
12-03-2009, 09:54 PM
If only. I'm the USTA coordinator at a small club. Before the great bump of 2010 we has a robust stable of about a dozen 3.0 guys, half of whom you could count on to be available for most mixed matches. That number has dropped to 5 3.0 guys, only one of which is dedicated to playing USTA. That's not enough for a mixed 6.0 team. On the other hand, I still have a dozen 3.0 women ready and willing and wanting to play 6.0 mixed. For some reason, at our club, the men were bumped willy nilly, yet in the women sector there were very few bumps. (I believe 2 to 3.5, and 2 to 4.0)

And I have a 7.0 mixed captain that was short a few 3.5 men who I thought would be thrilled to pick up some new recruits, but somehow, not so much.

So I'm afraid with the new ratings, no, some people don't get to play tennis.

My impression is that men's ratings were bumped up more that women's.

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 06:54 AM
I got moved back to 4.5 after 2 years of 4.0. I am not sure how really. Must have been my match scores. I didn't win a match at 4.5 and split at 4.0 singles and won both of my senior doubles. Played on a 9.0 mixed and went 2-3 matched up with a 5.0 girl where we mostly played #1. But I guess they must of look at the scores. I played 2 matches at #1 doubles for 4.5 and had 2 highly competitive matches, one went to 3 sets. For the opposing team in those matches, one of the guys on each team got moved to 5.0. When I played at #3 doubles, mostly got whipped due to being matched up with mid-4.0 players. Our 4.5 team wasn't very good.

Do your records count from non-NTRP tournaments? In a final in sectional doubles, we beat a guy who won 3 doubles matches at 4.5 at the sectionals and 3 at the Nationals. I also had 2 wins at national age bracket tournaments. Almost seems they had to look at those.

I am fine being moved up but I guess I will only be on 1 team instead of 4 unless we get a 4.5 seniors team. I don't think I will be on the 9.0 Mixed since I will be one of the weaker guys on the present team. I was on the roster since I could play with the 5.0 girls on the team.

I get tired of all the complaining of the ratings. People complain about people who should be moved up until they become the one getting moved and then it is unfair.

You are correct, it goes by your match scores, not wins or losses.

Not sure all of that stuff counts (mixed doesnt count toward your rating for sure), but if you're beating players who were at nationals that certainly would help. (heck if you're in sectionals yourself it's no surprise you were moved up, considering how many people they moved this time around....)

michael_1265
12-04-2009, 09:44 AM
Anyone else tired of the complaining about rating changes? Anyone else tired of checking their email and seeing an inbox full of complaints (as if I can do anything about it)? Anyone else tired of people talking smack about 3.5 players, and then complaining when they get bumped to 4.0? Anyone else tired of people saying 'well gosh, I went undefeated...how did I get bumped up'? Anyone else tired of people complaining that they can't appeal back down after being rightfully bumped up?

If so, this is the thread for you!!!!

No matter your rating...at the end of the day, really only one thing is important...YOU STILL GET TO PLAY TENNIS.

Sheesh

*awaiting the flames...

I agree that whining about the rating if you get bumped up is useless. Accept the challenge! The effect of the rating change, on the other hand, can be disastrous. I am captain of a 3.0 men's team, and the development I live in also has a 3.5 men's team. My team is a great bunch of guys; this spring, my first year as captain, we were rebuilding and were 2-7. I only had nine players during the season , which was not enough, and I recruited two more in the summer, for 11 total. When the ratings came out I (amazingly) lost three players. So we are now no longer viable at 3.0. Since the 3.5 talent pool has obviously been watered down, I asked my team if they would like to move up to the 3.5 league, and they agreed. Turns out that moving up will be problematic. Our development has a rule that residents have first choice at league spots. If I were to move the team up, retaining our newly-minted 3.5s, the existing 3.5 team would no longer be viable, because they lost four to uprating. I have three players who have been on the team long-term, but come from outside the neighborhood. So existing 3.5s, who number maybe eight or nine, would file a grievance to kick my non-neighborhood players out. It sounds stupid, but this really sucks, and someone is going to end up thrown under the bus. I'm sure there are no issues like this in Atlanta or NorCal, but our playing population is limited, and these changes will definitely lead to the collapse of the a number of teams.
Mike

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 09:56 AM
I agree that whining about the rating if you get bumped up is useless. Accept the challenge! The effect of the rating change, on the other hand, can be disastrous. I am captain of a 3.0 men's team, and the development I live in also has a 3.5 men's team. My team is a great bunch of guys; this spring, my first year as captain, we were rebuilding and were 2-7. I only had nine players during the season , which was not enough, and I recruited two more in the summer, for 11 total. When the ratings came out I (amazingly) lost three players. So we are now no longer viable at 3.0. Since the 3.5 talent pool has obviously been watered down, I asked my team if they would like to move up to the 3.5 league, and they agreed. Turns out that moving up will be problematic. Our development has a rule that residents have first choice at league spots. If I were to move the team up, retaining our newly-minted 3.5s, the existing 3.5 team would no longer be viable, because they lost four to uprating. I have three players who have been on the team long-term, but come from outside the neighborhood. So existing 3.5s, who number maybe eight or nine, would file a grievance to kick my non-neighborhood players out. It sounds stupid, but this really sucks, and someone is going to end up thrown under the bus. I'm sure there are no issues like this in Atlanta or NorCal, but our playing population is limited, and these changes will definitely lead to the collapse of the a number of teams.
Mike

Forgive my denseness, but could you explain to me why appealing a ratings bump that you feel is unjustified is whining while what you just went through here isn't? :confused:

Just curious, friend. Not looking for a fight. :)

michael_1265
12-04-2009, 08:41 PM
Forgive my denseness, but could you explain to me why appealing a ratings bump that you feel is unjustified is whining while what you just went through here isn't? :confused:

Just curious, friend. Not looking for a fight. :)

JMO, but I'm defining whining in this case as not being able to deal with the situation on a personal level, ie, "I've been kicking the crap out of 3.5s, and I just won't be able to do that any longer at 4.0". Not that there aren't legitimate gripes; I know a 72 year old who just got bumped to 4.0. In this case, we might have people who want to play who won't be able to. I really don't care if I play at 3.0 or 3.5; as long as I have a league to play in, I'm fine. The gripe I have is that some egghead changed the NTRP algorithm, and a lot of folks could end up paying the price.

But if you think it's a whine that's fine. Not looking for a fight here either.

Topaz
12-05-2009, 04:16 AM
To be clear, in my original post, it is the 'I've been kicking the crap out of 3.5s and I won't be able to do that at 4.0' whiners that are under my skin.

I totally get the people who are disappointed or even upset about losing a team that they were playing with for a long time. But I think it is an unrealistic expectation to think that the team will never have to break up or lose people.

One of my teams had 3 people move up. Last year, we were a threat to win our division, which sends us straight to sectionals (no districts). So, we could play at 3.5 again, without those three, and still be a *very* strong team.

But, we want to stay together. So, we're playing up at 4.0 where we will get slaughtered, but we get to stay together.

So, sometimes there are tough decisions to be made...but you have to figure out your priorities for playing league tennis and/or for that team. If you want to play with your friends, find a level where everyone can play together. But playing with your friends *and* beating the snot out of everyone else in your league at the same time...well, if it happens, awesome (probably a very fun time!), but again, it just isn't a realistic expectation every season.

I think the bumps were needed. I know in my area we've had some teams just sitting at the top of the leagues year after year and they weren't getting bumped. There was a bit of a traffic jam, and even though some might have gotten caught up in the rating moves that shouldn't have, this is like a big case of NTRP draino! And, if they really don't belong at the new level, then they will get dropped (but they have to be willing to play and possibly get beaten badly to do that).

Xisbum
12-05-2009, 05:19 AM
JMO, but I'm defining whining in this case as not being able to deal with the situation on a personal level, ie, "I've been kicking the crap out of 3.5s, and I just won't be able to do that any longer at 4.0". Not that there aren't legitimate gripes; I know a 72 year old who just got bumped to 4.0 In this case, we might have people who want to play who won't be able to. I really don't care if I play at 3.0 or 3.5; as long as I have a league to play in, I'm fine. The gripe I have is that some egghead changed the NTRP algorithm, and a lot of folks could end up paying the price.

But if you think it's a whine that's fine. Not looking for a fight here either.

Good argument; much better than those sophomoric folks who question the manhood of people who file legitimate appeals. Good to have a decent discussion for a change. :)

Good luck in 2010.

if they really don't belong at the new level, then they will get dropped (but they have to be willing to play and possibly get beaten badly to do that).

Ah, but the rub is this: to play and get beaten badly in USTA leagues, you first have to be asked to play at your new level. It's the classic Catch 22: You won't get moved down if you don't lose, you can't lose if you can't play, and no 4.0 captain who looks at my record will ask me to play. Heck, no 3.5 captains were knocking down my door, either, so why should 4.0 captains take the risk?

And thank you, too, for making logical arguments and not falling back on what passes for debate these days. :)

DISCLAIMER: My arguments apply to my situation only; I'm not speaking for anyone else who may or may not have a legitimate gripe with what just happened.

michael_1265
12-05-2009, 08:38 AM
Good argument; much better than those sophomoric folks who question the manhood of people who file legitimate appeals. Good to have a decent discussion for a change. :)

Good luck in 2010.



Ah, but the rub is this: to play and get beaten badly in USTA leagues, you first have to be asked to play at your new level. It's the classic Catch 22: You won't get moved down if you don't lose, you can't lose if you can't play, and no 4.0 captain who looks at my record will ask me to play. Heck, no 3.5 captains were knocking down my door, either, so why should 4.0 captains take the risk?

And thank you, too, for making logical arguments and not falling back on what passes for debate these days. :)

DISCLAIMER: My arguments apply to my situation only; I'm not speaking for anyone else who may or may not have a legitimate gripe with what just happened.

Thanks. Things will work out for almost everyone with a year or so of adjustment; they always do. I feel the worst about the 72 yo man I mentioned above. He is not ready to play at 4.0, so he won't play. How many more years does he have to play? This may be it for him. To have the last few years of your league-play life stolen from you is really sad.

JavierLW
12-05-2009, 10:24 AM
Thanks. Things will work out for almost everyone with a year or so of adjustment; they always do. I feel the worst about the 72 yo man I mentioned above. He is not ready to play at 4.0, so he won't play. How many more years does he have to play? This may be it for him. To have the last few years of your league-play life stolen from you is really sad.

I had a player who is 67 in the same boat.

But I think you're way over-dramatizing it. A HUGE chuck of the 3.5's got moved into 4.0 so you dont really have an argument that somehow this guys is screwed now.

If he chooses to not play 4.0 that's his choice.

It's not the same 4.0 again so it's really not true that he's "not ready to play at 4.0". I mean what do you mean by that, he's not going to win most of his matches? He's not going to go to the playoffs?

He's playing a large amount of the same players that he saw at 3.5, so if he was ready to play them there he shouldnt mind playing them at 4.0.

If you really cared about that much about it, you'd tell him that and encourage him to play rather then give up because of some silly notion that he's suddenly "screwed" because he's at this magical 4.0 level.

Lakers4Life
12-05-2009, 10:56 AM
NTRP isn't perfect, but for the majority, it works. And right now, it is the best thing we have.

Javier, I have a friend, too, that I was stunned about and I think she got screwed (by not being bumped). But you know what...she's still gonna play 4.0! And anyone who bothered to look up her record would not have a problem with the 3.5 that is still next to her name.

There is no rule that says you can't play UP. You might get your lunch handed to you, but if you manage to beat someone higher, chances are you might get bumped up, mid year.

My impression is that men's ratings were bumped up more that women's.

Same here, about 80% of the men in my Leauge (not just my team), got moved up. While only about 25% of the Women got bumped. Something is wrong with this picture.

JavierLW
12-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Same here, about 80% of the men in my Leauge (not just my team), got moved up. While only about 25% of the Women got bumped. Something is wrong with this picture.

Not really. They probably observed different trends between men and women.

In my area it's pretty common that men like to play down and women like to play up.

Besides that in a lot of cases they have a lot more time to work on their game, take drills, lessons, etc.. and they take it a lot more seriously.

There are also a LOT more women's teams then men's teams so it's easier for them to find a team. And it also means there will be more teams full of average players that wont get moved up.

I dont think hardly any women got moved up in my area.

Either way I dont see why it would be reasonable if both happened to end up exactly the same.

michael_1265
12-05-2009, 12:45 PM
I had a player who is 67 in the same boat.

But I think you're way over-dramatizing it. A HUGE chuck of the 3.5's got moved into 4.0 so you dont really have an argument that somehow this guys is screwed now.

If he chooses to not play 4.0 that's his choice.

It's not the same 4.0 again so it's really not true that he's "not ready to play at 4.0". I mean what do you mean by that, he's not going to win most of his matches? He's not going to go to the playoffs?

He's playing a large amount of the same players that he saw at 3.5, so if he was ready to play them there he shouldnt mind playing them at 4.0.

If you really cared about that much about it, you'd tell him that and encourage him to play rather then give up because of some silly notion that he's suddenly "screwed" because he's at this magical 4.0 level.

Actually, I get the impression that he was "just hanging on" at 3.5, using his knowledge and skills to carve out a slightly under-.500 winning percentage in doubles. Although the original 4.0s have been diluted, the skill level will still be higher, and his skills are moving in the opposite direction. I'm 44, and I never played as a young man, so my skills are on the rise. I would take an uprating in stride, because I have the time and motivation to improve. At 72, you body limits your chances to improve. Who wants to get pounded for a year (at that age) to prove you belong at the lower level?

I'm sure he'll continue to play, just not league.

Lakers4Life
12-05-2009, 12:51 PM
In my League, there were 10 3.5 mens, 6 3.0 mens, 2 3.5 womens and 4 3.0 womens teams. It might differ from area to area, but that's how it is in my area.

Ratio of Men to Women leauge player is about 2:1, the problem with the women's team is they hate playing away games, where as the men will play almost anywhere. And they say, men don't easily commit?!?!

One thing about the Year End ratings is it just shows the total amount of players, it does not divide by gender, or age for that matter.

Lakers4Life
12-05-2009, 01:06 PM
Actually, I get the impression that he was "just hanging on" at 3.5, using his knowledge and skills to carve out a slightly under-.500 winning percentage in doubles. Although the original 4.0s have been diluted, the skill level will still be higher, and his skills are moving in the opposite direction. I'm 44, and I never played as a young man, so my skills are on the rise. I would take an uprating in stride, because I have the time and motivation to improve. At 72, you body limits your chances to improve. Who wants to get pounded for a year (at that age) to prove you belong at the lower level?

I'm sure he'll continue to play, just not league.

My group is about 40-ish, we play one team that is practically over 60+. They try to play the age card, since we are about 20 years younger. The always plead, "To take it easy on us older guys." These Seniors go to the Senior Sectionals consistently, and will give you a run for your money. One of our doubles teams took on the #1 doubles with the idea of making them run, but it ended up being the other way around.

One thing I'd like to see is the actual rating number, kinda like a Golf index, and how it's actually calculated by matches. We all rely on the USTA Computer to come up with the ratings, but we should be able to determine exactly where we are. Wishful thinking?

JavierLW
12-05-2009, 02:41 PM
Actually, I get the impression that he was "just hanging on" at 3.5, using his knowledge and skills to carve out a slightly under-.500 winning percentage in doubles. Although the original 4.0s have been diluted, the skill level will still be higher, and his skills are moving in the opposite direction. I'm 44, and I never played as a young man, so my skills are on the rise. I would take an uprating in stride, because I have the time and motivation to improve. At 72, you body limits your chances to improve. Who wants to get pounded for a year (at that age) to prove you belong at the lower level?

I'm sure he'll continue to play, just not league.

There are lots of great players for 3.5 and 4.0 in their 60's and 70's, especially in doubles. Since you yourself are not 72 I dont think you can really speak to what someone else's ability is.

Tons of players got moved up. It's unlikely that he didnt beat some of them already if he's getting moved up as well.

Did he try to appeal his rating?

robby c
12-05-2009, 04:10 PM
There are lots of great players for 3.5 and 4.0 in their 60's and 70's, especially in doubles. Since you yourself are not 72 I dont think you can really speak to what someone else's ability is.

Tons of players got moved up. It's unlikely that he didnt beat some of them already if he's getting moved up as well.

Did he try to appeal his rating?
I'm guessing this 72 yr old gent was bumped in Seniors or SuperSeniors. Not as big an age mismatch than in Adult league.
Robby C

michael_1265
12-05-2009, 10:46 PM
There are lots of great players for 3.5 and 4.0 in their 60's and 70's, especially in doubles. Since you yourself are not 72 I dont think you can really speak to what someone else's ability is.

Tons of players got moved up. It's unlikely that he didnt beat some of them already if he's getting moved up as well.

Did he try to appeal his rating?

Yeah, electronically, like a bunch of people did. No dice.

Lakers4Life
12-06-2009, 05:11 AM
One thing I did notice was players who played in the Summer Tri-Level and Fall Doubles, moved up. While the players who did not play in the Summer and Fall kept the same level. I was told the Summer and Fall matched did not really count, other than for the Year end ratings.