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New Kid On the Block
12-03-2009, 03:56 AM
I am really not quite sure what the usta thinks they accomplished with what they did a few days ago. I believe they just felt nationally their what they perceived as cheaters and overrated players at the tops of levels seeing the same old faces at districts sectionals and nationals every year. So they just bumped up huge percentages of people hoping to put these players in the next level and not giving them the chance to appeal.

I dont think they needed to bump all these people up, they have basically redefined what the levels are. the 4.0 division is really like a 3.5 league now.

They could of accomplished what they wanted to with taking away the appeals and letting the computer bump the players the way they had been, this would of worked

bpp
12-03-2009, 05:42 AM
I am really not quite sure what the usta thinks they accomplished with what they did a few days ago. I believe they just felt nationally their what they perceived as cheaters and overrated players at the tops of levels seeing the same old faces at districts sectionals and nationals every year. So they just bumped up huge percentages of people hoping to put these players in the next level and not giving them the chance to appeal.

I dont think they needed to bump all these people up, they have basically redefined what the levels are. the 4.0 division is really like a 3.5 league now.

They could of accomplished what they wanted to with taking away the appeals and letting the computer bump the players the way they had been, this would of worked

I think the point of the bump was to put people more in line with what the USTA descriptions of the levels are. I would have to agree with the USTA that there was such discrepancy in playing levels that the old systems was not working and some overhaul was needed.

With the lower levels, new ringers would come in every year, that even the strong players that should be bumped would end up losing a couple matches and would be able to stay down. On my 3.5 team, we had players competing at the 4.0 level as well. They were competitive at 4.0 but then would lose 6-1, 6-1 at the 3.5 level to a ringer who had managed to stay down there for several years. Something had to be done.

raiden031
12-03-2009, 06:00 AM
I am really not quite sure what the usta thinks they accomplished with what they did a few days ago. I believe they just felt nationally their what they perceived as cheaters and overrated players at the tops of levels seeing the same old faces at districts sectionals and nationals every year. So they just bumped up huge percentages of people hoping to put these players in the next level and not giving them the chance to appeal.

I dont think they needed to bump all these people up, they have basically redefined what the levels are. the 4.0 division is really like a 3.5 league now.

They could of accomplished what they wanted to with taking away the appeals and letting the computer bump the players the way they had been, this would of worked

The only problem is that all the whiners think they have a better understanding of the NTRP system themselves then the creators of the system (USTA) do.

They aren't redefining anything. They are undoing something that has been happening over the course of many years, and that is the ratings being squeezed together by players wanting to play in the lower level possible.

For example, USTA believes that a player with a rating showing them to be a 'strong 3.5' as of last year is better than they ever intended them to be, so they decided to adjust the ratings to correct this discrepency.

jrod
12-03-2009, 06:11 AM
....I dont think they needed to bump all these people up, they have basically redefined what the levels are. the 4.0 division is really like a 3.5 league now.....

Agreed.

I haven't played in USTA leagues for nearly 3 years now, yet I play plenty in other leagues and with numerous different players. The springtime is the only time folks around here join USTA leagues and is really the only opportunity the USTA has to observe and rate many of the players in my area.

From what I can tell, a fairly large number of them got bumped. A few were deserving but most were questionable in my opinion. There are a few players that I have use to gauge other players levels; one is at the 4.5 level, one at the 4.0 level and one at the 3.5 level. Both the 3.5 and 4.0 players got bumped to 4.0 and 4.5, respectively.

The 4.5 player that wasn't bumped is a club pro and has little time to play USTA. He practices with other 4.5 players at the club and routinely beats them all, even on a bad day. He's even golden-setted one of the stronger 4.5 players. My sense is if anyone deserved to be bumped it was him, but he wasn't likely due to little exposure. Both the 3.5 and 4.0 players were questionable bumps in my opinion. I consider myself a 4.0 singles player and weaker 4.5 level doubles player. I can routinely beat the 3.5 player that was bumped and I win about 50% of the time when playing the 4.0 player that was bumped.

When I look around at the newly defined 4.0 players I can probably beat the majority of them better than 80% of the time. When I look at the current pool of 4.5 players I can probably win about 50% of the time with about half of them, and stand little chance of winning with the top half of this group. The number of players at each level here is on the order of 15-20, so this assesment is not based on a small sample set.

So it does appear as if the large number of bumps have redefined what the NTRP levels are.

JoelDali
12-03-2009, 06:25 AM
The 3.0 ringers are going to get destroyed in the 3.5s.

Yer going down Fedace.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qdzfWVHquXA/StPPeAZG0-I/AAAAAAAAEjU/k7FZ1bjLyzM/s400/MSC+Wilbur+the+washback+getting+weighed+092909.JPG

Nellie
12-03-2009, 06:42 AM
They needed to redo the levels - I saw some ridiculous play by 4.0/4.5 players this last year. You should not have scholarship college players at 4.0 and former challenger level players at 4.5. At the same time, you should not have healthy players with 10+ years of league experience in 3.0 leagues. It leaves no room for new players, which is what the USTA needs/wants.

jrod
12-03-2009, 06:49 AM
...It leaves no room for new players, which is what the USTA needs/wants.


Interesting comment/observation Nellie....I never thought about their motivation for doing this but now you've got me thinking. The USTA makes a lot of noise about how they have been successful at "growing the game", with new recruits numbers up over the last several years.

This kind of self-promotion is evident in all sorts of business endeavors and usually is loudest with the companies that are struggling. One has to wonder how much the recent rash of player bumps is specifically designed to perpetuate the self-promotional tendancies of this largely inept organization?

New Kid On the Block
12-03-2009, 07:20 AM
They needed to redo the levels - I saw some ridiculous play by 4.0/4.5 players this last year. You should not have scholarship college players at 4.0 and former challenger level players at 4.5. At the same time, you should not have healthy players with 10+ years of league experience in 3.0 leagues. It leaves no room for new players, which is what the USTA needs/wants.

I agree, so DQ them, or bump them up so they only have one year at it.
I think the contstant appeals has always been the problem, take away the appeal which they are doing now and they didnt need to do all of the extra bump ups. They changed the talent level of the pools, so this year 4.0 will be weaker then last because it will contain the top 25 percent of 3.5. Yes some of these were ringers who probably could play 4.0 anyway, but many are not.

I am not complaining, i am just saying that there was clearly a shift and changed the leagues. As far as self raters and ringers, they are still going to rate at levels where they think they can dominate, now a 4.0 captain wont need as strong of a ringer to win now, that is the only change.

gameboy
12-03-2009, 08:14 AM
I am glad they did the mass adjustment, it was needed.

I wish they would go one step further and decree automatic bump up for all team members who play in playoffs beyond sectionals. That would lessen the desire to stack teams with sandbaggers.

ohplease
12-03-2009, 08:27 AM
My prediction is winning playoff teams that moved wholesale from one level to another will be in the playoff hunt at their new higher level as well. They might not get to that stage of competition as easily, or even at all - but they won't be doormats, either. Their members figured out how to win before, and I wouldn't be the least surprised if they did so again. I've seen it happen repeatedly with teams that go to sectionals/nationals.

New Kid On the Block
12-03-2009, 09:25 AM
My prediction is winning playoff teams that moved wholesale from one level to another will be in the playoff hunt at their new higher level as well. They might not get to that stage of competition as easily, or even at all - but they won't be doormats, either. Their members figured out how to win before, and I wouldn't be the least surprised if they did so again. I've seen it happen repeatedly with teams that go to sectionals/nationals.
i agree with that but if those players from those teams are bumped up by the computer, and didnt have the ability to appeal that would correct that.
I dont think bumping up half of the division are in that boat of the top one or two teams. They took players from almost every team in our local league, i am not complaining about it, just dont think they needed to do that to correct the problem. Taking away all appeals would of done the trick.

raiden031
12-03-2009, 09:36 AM
i agree with that but if those players from those teams are bumped up by the computer, and didnt have the ability to appeal that would correct that.
I dont think bumping up half of the division are in that boat of the top one or two teams. They took players from almost every team in our local league, i am not complaining about it, just dont think they needed to do that to correct the problem. Taking away all appeals would of done the trick.

You are missing the point of why USTA did what they did! USTA says that the NTRP levels no longer represent the skill level boundaries that they intended them to represent. The problem isn't that players with a 3.53 rating are still playing 3.5, the problem is that a player with a 3.4 rating is typically too good (in the eyes of the NTRP experts) to even be a 3.5 player these days.

New Kid On the Block
12-03-2009, 01:57 PM
You are missing the point of why USTA did what they did! USTA says that the NTRP levels no longer represent the skill level boundaries that they intended them to represent. The problem isn't that players with a 3.53 rating are still playing 3.5, the problem is that a player with a 3.4 rating is typically too good (in the eyes of the NTRP experts) to even be a 3.5 player these days.
If you are talking about fitting players into the below rating model, I think it is impossible to put people into that general a terms, but i guess they know what they are doing.

1.0 Just starting to play tennis
1.5 Has limited experience and is still working primarily on getting the ball into play.
2.0 Needs on-court experience. Has obvious stroke weaknesses but is familiar with basic positions for singles and doubles play.
2.5 Learning to judge where the ball is going although court coverage is weak. Can sustain a short rally of slow pace with other players of the same ability.
3.0 Fairly consistent when hitting medium-paced shots, but is not comfortable with all strokes and lacks execution when trying for directional control, depth or power. Most common doubles formation is one-up and one-back.
3.5 Has achieved improved stroke dependability with directional control on moderate shots, but still lacks depth and variety. Starting to exhibit more aggressive net play, has improved court coverage and is developing teamwork in doubles.
4.0 Has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both forehand and backhand sides on moderate shots, plus the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success. Occasionally forces errors when serving and teamwork in doubles is evident. Rallies may be lost due to impatience.
4.5 Starting to master the use of power and spins and beginning to handle pace, has sound footwork, can control depth of shots and is beginning to vary game plan according to opponents. Can hit first serves with power and accuracy and place the second serve. Tends to overhit on difficult shots. Aggressive net play is common in doubles.
5.0 Has good shot anticipation and frequently has an outstanding shot or exceptional consistency around which a game may be structured. Can regularly hit winners or force errors off of short balls and can put away volleys, can successfully execute lobs, drop shots, half volleys and overhead smashes and has good depth and spin on most second serves.
5.5 Has developed power and/or consistency as a major weapon. Can vary strategies and styles of play in a competitive situation and hit dependable shots in a stress situation.
6.0 Has obtained a sectional and/or national ranking.
6.5 Has extensive satellite tournament experience.
7.0 Makes his living from tournament prize money.

jrod
12-03-2009, 02:10 PM
You are missing the point of why USTA did what they did! USTA says that the NTRP levels no longer represent the skill level boundaries that they intended them to represent. The problem isn't that players with a 3.53 rating are still playing 3.5, the problem is that a player with a 3.4 rating is typically too good (in the eyes of the NTRP experts) to even be a 3.5 player these days.


In other words, they REDEFINED the NTRP levels.

raiden031
12-04-2009, 05:39 AM
In other words, they REDEFINED the NTRP levels.

Or more accurately they reverted back to the original definition of the levels.

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 06:03 AM
I am really not quite sure what the usta thinks they accomplished with what they did a few days ago. I believe they just felt nationally their what they perceived as cheaters and overrated players at the tops of levels seeing the same old faces at districts sectionals and nationals every year. So they just bumped up huge percentages of people hoping to put these players in the next level and not giving them the chance to appeal.

I dont think they needed to bump all these people up, they have basically redefined what the levels are. the 4.0 division is really like a 3.5 league now.

They could of accomplished what they wanted to with taking away the appeals and letting the computer bump the players the way they had been, this would of worked

Actually according to their description they redefined the levels back to what the levels were supposed to represent in the first place because they had gotten to the point where there was a large chunk of underrated players at 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0.

JoelDali
12-04-2009, 06:10 AM
This is the end of competitive recreational tennis.

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 06:11 AM
I agree, so DQ them, or bump them up so they only have one year at it.
I think the contstant appeals has always been the problem, take away the appeal which they are doing now and they didnt need to do all of the extra bump ups. They changed the talent level of the pools, so this year 4.0 will be weaker then last because it will contain the top 25 percent of 3.5. Yes some of these were ringers who probably could play 4.0 anyway, but many are not.

I am not complaining, i am just saying that there was clearly a shift and changed the leagues. As far as self raters and ringers, they are still going to rate at levels where they think they can dominate, now a 4.0 captain wont need as strong of a ringer to win now, that is the only change.

While less appeals and DQ's helped the league, you still had players doctoring the system, and I think the league realized that at least between 3.0/3.5/4.0 (I cant speak beyond that) there was a large grey area between the levels.

It's not true that a 3.0 "ringer" will lose to every 3.5 player because there were tons of players as good or worse in the bottom of 3.5. In 2004 I had 8 3.0 players on my 3.5 team and we took 3rd place out of 8 teams in our division. (the very same players almost were on a 3.0 team and we took 3rd place and were very disappointed.....)

So they just moved these grey areas upward. Also believing that they better fit the descriptions of what's in the higher level anyway.

It actually changes more then you think. It used to be that a lot of teams at least would win their local league before the season even started just because of who they had on their team. So those of us who paid attention almost always knew who was going to win or even take second....

Now sure, you dont need as strong of a player to win, but I dont think it's so clear that anyone in particular is going to win since we dont really know who the new dominant players are yet. (unless someone really knows all the players really well and manages to find all the few that were missed and stick them on his team or finds new players)

jrod
12-04-2009, 07:03 AM
Or more accurately they reverted back to the original definition of the levels.

Reverted, redefined.....semantics. The current levels are DIFFERENT than they were prior to the bump. Everyone needs to reassess. J011y is no doubt delighted now that he might legitimately be considered a strong 4.0 or weak 4.5 player....

raiden031
12-04-2009, 07:25 AM
Reverted, redefined.....semantics. The current levels are DIFFERENT than they were prior to the bump. Everyone needs to reassess. J011y is no doubt delighted now that he might legitimately be considered a strong 4.0 or weak 4.5 player....

True, but people keep saying so and so doesn't belong at their new level, as if the previous rating distribution was valid and the new one is invalid.

Although the new one is more valid than the previous distribution, because the creators of the system said so and they own the system.

jrod
12-04-2009, 07:26 AM
True, but people keep saying so and so doesn't belong at their new level, as if the previous rating distribution was valid and the new one is invalid.

Although the new one is more valid than the previous distribution, because the creators of the system said so and they own the system.


Don't go religious on me here raiden...not a big believer in "systems".

New Kid On the Block
12-04-2009, 08:54 AM
It actually changes more then you think. It used to be that a lot of teams at least would win their local league before the season even started just because of who they had on their team. So those of us who paid attention almost always knew who was going to win or even take second....



I agree with that, you could always tell who was going to win or be at the top because you were familiar with the pool of players, and who they were playing against.
under what happend now, you will be able to tell in one or two years because you will be more accustomed to the new pools of players.

Fedace
12-04-2009, 08:56 AM
The 3.0 ringers are going to get destroyed in the 3.5s.

Yer going down Fedace.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qdzfWVHquXA/StPPeAZG0-I/AAAAAAAAEjU/k7FZ1bjLyzM/s400/MSC+Wilbur+the+washback+getting+weighed+092909.JPG

3.0 ?????????? I serve close to 100 mph. do you know any 3.0 that can do that .... lol:)

kylebarendrick
12-04-2009, 09:50 AM
All of the 3.0s that post here have 100 mph serves.

rainman007
12-04-2009, 10:20 AM
hence the major adjustments in ratings haha

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 10:33 AM
3.0 ?????????? I serve close to 100 mph. do you know any 3.0 that can do that .... lol:)

I know a couple. Does it have to go in the box for it to count?