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lethalphorce
12-03-2009, 08:22 AM
What should I expect?
Is there a major difference in strategy from men's dubs? Are there certain etiquette things (besides the obvious stuff) I should be aware of?

sphinx780
12-03-2009, 08:39 AM
What level are you playing?

Really, the strategy is the same as any doubles play, isolate the weaker player and don't allow them to isolate your teams weaker player. Match your strengths to their weaknesses and control the net. Celebrate your victory with a beer.

Etiquette comes down to common sense. If you're a blaster and the weaker player can't get their stick on the ball...don't keep posting welts on the poor soul.

Oh, and don't stare at an attractive opponent...unless it's being returned ;-)

raiden031
12-03-2009, 08:55 AM
Expect practically every shot to be hit towards your partner.

JRstriker12
12-03-2009, 09:02 AM
Mixed dubs usually comes down to this:

-Play keep-away from the stronger player.
-Make the weaker player hit their weakest shot as often as possible.
-If they are both at the net, try lobbing the weaker player.

Ripper014
12-03-2009, 09:07 AM
Saying mixed is like saying women's is like men's... it is a hybrid of the two games... Depending on the level and how serious the opponents are it can become a game of keep away, and lobbing to the extreme isolating the stronger player from touching the ball.

Staring at the attractive opponent is like staring at the sun... you do not ogle, you have to discretely admire her excellent (tennis) form, but regardless she will probably know anyway.

Best of luck... for some it is a nice social distraction... for others it will be hours of their lives they will never get back.

escii_35
12-03-2009, 09:13 AM
Females who play social don't expect to be plowed. If they are playing league it's part of the game.

My secret for winning (7.0s) is finding a granny who just stands at the net and puts the ball away. I stand around as the points flow in. 8.0s is usually about negating that darned 4.5.

HitItHarder
12-03-2009, 09:37 AM
I played in a mixed league for the first time this summer with my wife as my partner. (Yes -- I realize some people consider this to be a sign of insanity) A few quick observations.

As hard as it seems, try not to treat the female opponent any differently than a male opponent. Use your regular serve and ground strokes. Don't "take it easy" on anyone. Often the women consider this more than a little insulting. But also use common sense -- don't go headhunting or anything.

Expect the male player to be extra agressive at the net and with poaching. It is either because they feel like they need to end points quickly because their partner may be weaker, or they are trying to be macho and show a superior female teammate they can contribute too.

Don't overlook the female player -- I played many matches where the female opponent was the stronger player and it was more effective to isolate the male. Probe both players before you make up your mind about which of the pair to attack.

Expect lobs - lots and lots of lobs. It seemed like the lob was used more than any other shot to try and recover from an attacking shot. Make sure you have discussed with your partner how you intend to handle lobs to particular parts of the court when one or both of you is at the net. I saw too many times when the guy considered himself to be the faster player and would go after lobs that would have been better handled by their teammate.

Along the same lines -- trust your partner to do their job. If you try and play both sides of the net, you will give away tons of points where a ball is hit to the open court you just vacated because you are trying to play every ball.

Mixed can be a lot of fun if you have the right attitude. Oh, and don't berate your spouse/partner in front of your opponents, save it for the car ride home. :)

JRstriker12
12-03-2009, 09:45 AM
I played in a mixed league for the first time this summer with my wife as my partner. (Yes -- I realize some people consider this to be a sign of insanity) A few quick observations.

As hard as it seems, try not to treat the female opponent any differently than a male opponent. Use your regular serve and ground strokes. Don't "take it easy" on anyone. Often the women consider this more than a little insulting. But also use common sense -- don't go headhunting or anything.

Expect the male player to be extra agressive at the net and with poaching. It is either because they feel like they need to end points quickly because their partner may be weaker, or they are trying to be macho and show a superior female teammate they can contribute too.

Don't overlook the female player -- I played many matches where the female opponent was the stronger player and it was more effective to isolate the male. Probe both players before you make up your mind about which of the pair to attack.

Expect lobs - lots and lots of lobs. It seemed like the lob was used more than any other shot to try and recover from an attacking shot. Make sure you have discussed with your partner how you intend to handle lobs to particular parts of the court when one or both of you is at the net. I saw too many times when the guy considered himself to be the faster player and would go after lobs that would have been better handled by their teammate.

Along the same lines -- trust your partner to do their job. If you try and play both sides of the net, you will give away tons of points where a ball is hit to the open court you just vacated because you are trying to play every ball.
Mixed can be a lot of fun if you have the right attitude. Oh, and don't berate your spouse/partner in front of your opponents, save it for the car ride home. :)


Good stuff!!

Trusting your partner is a big one. In fact I often encourage my partners to be more agressive. If you are the stronger player, nothing sucks more than watching your partner pass up a ball they could have killed because they feel they should leave it for you, but lose the point becasue you didn't expect to have to play the ball.

lethalphorce
12-03-2009, 10:04 AM
What level are you playing?

This is a rec league - we'll probably be playing 7.0 - 7.5.

Best of luck... for some it is a nice social distraction... for others it will be hours of their lives they will never get back

lol, mixed dubs has never really appealed to me, but I have an opportunity to fill in for someone this week. Hopefully it's not that bad :)

As hard as it seems, try not to treat the female opponent any differently than a male opponent. Use your regular serve and ground strokes. Don't "take it easy" on anyone. Often the women consider this more than a little insulting. But also use common sense -- don't go headhunting or anything.

Thanks, this is one of the things I was unsure about.

sphinx780
12-03-2009, 11:02 AM
This is a rec league - we'll probably be playing 7.0 - 7.5.

Thanks, this is one of the things I was unsure about.

Just go out and play your normal game and you'll be fine. No reason to change unless you get one of the odd matches where one player is seriously over matched by the pace of the ball and then you might back off a bit. Otherwise, it can be a fun time.

stoo
12-03-2009, 11:17 AM
I played in a mixed league for the first time this summer with my wife as my partner. (Yes -- I realize some people consider this to be a sign of insanity) A few quick observations.

As hard as it seems, try not to treat the female opponent any differently than a male opponent. Use your regular serve and ground strokes. Don't "take it easy" on anyone. Often the women consider this more than a little insulting. But also use common sense -- don't go headhunting or anything.

Expect the male player to be extra agressive at the net and with poaching. It is either because they feel like they need to end points quickly because their partner may be weaker, or they are trying to be macho and show a superior female teammate they can contribute too.

Don't overlook the female player -- I played many matches where the female opponent was the stronger player and it was more effective to isolate the male. Probe both players before you make up your mind about which of the pair to attack.

Expect lobs - lots and lots of lobs. It seemed like the lob was used more than any other shot to try and recover from an attacking shot. Make sure you have discussed with your partner how you intend to handle lobs to particular parts of the court when one or both of you is at the net. I saw too many times when the guy considered himself to be the faster player and would go after lobs that would have been better handled by their teammate.

Along the same lines -- trust your partner to do their job. If you try and play both sides of the net, you will give away tons of points where a ball is hit to the open court you just vacated because you are trying to play every ball.

Mixed can be a lot of fun if you have the right attitude. Oh, and don't berate your spouse/partner in front of your opponents, save it for the car ride home. :)

Very well said.

amarone
12-03-2009, 12:02 PM
Mixed can be a lot of fun if you have the right attitude. Oh, and don't berate your spouse/partner in front of your opponents, save it for the car ride home. :) And even then, only when within walking distance of home and that nice comfortable couch that you will have to get used to.

jazzyfunkybluesy
12-03-2009, 12:09 PM
What level are you playing?

Really, the strategy is the same as any doubles play, isolate the weaker player and don't allow them to isolate your teams weaker player. Match your strengths to their weaknesses and control the net. Celebrate your victory with a beer.

Etiquette comes down to common sense. If you're a blaster and the weaker player can't get their stick on the ball...don't keep posting welts on the poor soul.

Oh, and don't stare at an attractive opponent...unless it's being returned ;-)

What? Thats the best part of mixed doubles. Matter of fact its all downhill from there.:twisted:

Cindysphinx
12-03-2009, 12:40 PM
1. There is no excuse for you to ever miss the return on the woman's serve. Do not attempt to blast it for a 90 mph winner unless you are really good at creating your own pace. If the opposing guy has cement overshoes and doesn't move at net, hit drop shots off of the woman's serve if it is weak.

2. If you do not break the opposing woman, you will probably lose. You must break her every single time. This gives you some wiggle room in case your partner doesn't hold and if the opposing man has an unbreakable serve. You? You are expected to hold using your Big Bad Forehand and your Big Bad Serve.

3. Never, ever DF to the opposing woman. This is a sin punishable by hanging.

4. If you can volley, follow all of your returns of the woman's serve to net. Many women get very intimidated by two at net and will cough up an error or weak shot.

5. Help your partner hold. Move around up there. Fake. Poach. Do *something.*

6. If your female partner is struggling to return the guy's serve, simply play two back on his first serve. Then if her ball strays toward the net player, you have a decent shot at getting it back somehow.

apor
12-03-2009, 12:48 PM
What to expect depends on your partner. This is the first year I played mixed, and I've had two different partners. One was very solid but didn't move well, and the other only had a slice and didn't move at all. Needless to say, I did a lot of running. I still enjoyed every minute of it. I met both partners right before the match, but we discussed (honestly) our strengths and weaknesses, and since there's two of you, you have to work as a team. The stronger of you will have to do their best to help the weaker, in order to get the win, or have fun or whatever it is you're playing for.

Topaz
12-04-2009, 04:24 AM
I played in a mixed league for the first time this summer with my wife as my partner. (Yes -- I realize some people consider this to be a sign of insanity) A few quick observations.

As hard as it seems, try not to treat the female opponent any differently than a male opponent. Use your regular serve and ground strokes. Don't "take it easy" on anyone. Often the women consider this more than a little insulting. But also use common sense -- don't go headhunting or anything.

Expect the male player to be extra agressive at the net and with poaching. It is either because they feel like they need to end points quickly because their partner may be weaker, or they are trying to be macho and show a superior female teammate they can contribute too.

Don't overlook the female player -- I played many matches where the female opponent was the stronger player and it was more effective to isolate the male. Probe both players before you make up your mind about which of the pair to attack.

Expect lobs - lots and lots of lobs. It seemed like the lob was used more than any other shot to try and recover from an attacking shot. Make sure you have discussed with your partner how you intend to handle lobs to particular parts of the court when one or both of you is at the net. I saw too many times when the guy considered himself to be the faster player and would go after lobs that would have been better handled by their teammate.

Along the same lines -- trust your partner to do their job. If you try and play both sides of the net, you will give away tons of points where a ball is hit to the open court you just vacated because you are trying to play every ball.

Mixed can be a lot of fun if you have the right attitude. Oh, and don't berate your spouse/partner in front of your opponents, save it for the car ride home. :)

This post should be stickied! Well said!

sureshs
12-04-2009, 04:33 AM
Avoid communicating with your partner. She will try to whip up a little team spirit at the start. Then she will try to tell you some secrets about the opponents, like he has a big serve and she has a great lob. Just look away and don't respond.

If she tries to tell you she has some injuries and might not be at her top level, give her a disbelieving look.

Whenever the opposing female wins a point, cheer loudly. Don't do that when your partner wins a point.

During the changeovers, try to chat up the opposing female.

If your partner calls a ball out, contradict it at once and side with the opponents.

After the match, just walk away without saying a word.

TheSubdude
12-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Is it wrong of me to consider this thread the exact reason I don't ever want to play mixed?

There seems to be too much PC awareness needed to have a fun, competitive match.

raiden031
12-06-2009, 06:55 AM
Is it wrong of me to consider this thread the exact reason I don't ever want to play mixed?

There seems to be too much PC awareness needed to have a fun, competitive match.

Why do you say that?

TheSubdude
12-06-2009, 11:33 AM
It's just that I've seen several threads like this. They almost always ask questions like "Am I serving too hard? Kicking it too high? Do I hit my forehand the way I usually do? Drop volley or overhead at the feet?"

Tennis requires enough concentration without worrying about who you're insulting because you're either playing too hard or not playing hard enough.

That and I'm scared to lose to a girl.

raiden031
12-07-2009, 03:25 AM
It's just that I've seen several threads like this. They almost always ask questions like "Am I serving too hard? Kicking it too high? Do I hit my forehand the way I usually do? Drop volley or overhead at the feet?"

Tennis requires enough concentration without worrying about who you're insulting because you're either playing too hard or not playing hard enough.

That and I'm scared to lose to a girl.

Well I personally haven't played mixed with any women who object to me hitting hard against them. These questions are unecessary. The only time I would refrain from hitting hard is if its a completely social match and they are a beginner.

lethalphorce
12-07-2009, 05:03 AM
It's just that I've seen several threads like this. They almost always ask questions like "Am I serving too hard? Kicking it too high? Do I hit my forehand the way I usually do? Drop volley or overhead at the feet?"

Tennis requires enough concentration without worrying about who you're insulting because you're either playing too hard or not playing hard enough.

That and I'm scared to lose to a girl.

After playing my 1st match of mixed the other night, I realize that most of these concerns I had were unwarranted. The women I played with were good players & had no problems handling pace. They were also 4.0's. I did look around & see some other women playing that weren't as solid, but as long as your playing with others at your own level there shouldn't be any issues.
With that being said. . . the tennis was good. . . but the fact that my partner would hold up play so she could chat with the girl we were playing against. . . the guy on the court next to us. . . her husband on the court on our other side . . . was a bit annoying :mad:

michael_1265
12-07-2009, 08:33 AM
What should I expect?
Is there a major difference in strategy from men's dubs? Are there certain etiquette things (besides the obvious stuff) I should be aware of?

Other than the stuff that has been said, make sure to figure out what your role is. I play 3.0 men's in the spring, and 7.0 mixed in the fall, matching up with a 4.0 woman who has some knee/mobility issues, but who has a monster flat forehand. The things that are good for me to do in the spring (being aggressive at net, lots of poaching) do not serve me well in the fall, because I often end up making my partner cross and give up the forehand she has already lined up.

I have found quick little topspin return lobs over the woman are a great tactic. Most women at 3.5 and 4.0 don't have a huge overhead, and since they tend to be under 6', it doesn't have to be a great lob. This works especially if her partner is a dominant net charger, because it takes him out of his game to cross and cover after serving. It also works great during a rally.

sphinx780
12-07-2009, 11:01 AM
but the fact that my partner would hold up play so she could chat with the girl we were playing against. . . the guy on the court next to us. . . her husband on the court on our other side . . . was a bit annoying :mad:

So, husband and wife were playing together against you and the guy on the court next to yours was chatting up the wife? That's pretty funny. Was there a fishbowl next to the courts? :twisted:

ronray43
12-08-2009, 09:57 AM
Have fun. Enjoy the scenery. Buy the ladies a glass of wine after the match.

roddick_rulz
12-08-2009, 10:12 AM
Don't pop wood!!!

ajmack
12-09-2009, 09:58 PM
Several of my regular doubles partners enjoy mixed more than regular doubles or singles. I just can't get into it.
If anyone here has taken karate, it's similar to sparring with a woman. If you take it easy on her, pull some punches, she hits you a few times and begins talking trash (highly annoying). On the tennis court, you hit a few dinks to a woman, end up losing the point and you feel with a p/ssy. Especially if she high-fives her partner or celebrates in any manner.
If you play aggressive, pound the ball at the female, well, you're winning points against a female.
Similarly, if you begin popping a female in the face in sparring, well, you're an a//hole for kicking a woman's a//.
It's too frustrating and mentally exhausting for me to continually struggle with whether to hit to the female and what type of shot to hit.
There's never any guilt beating a guy. I've tanked a game before to avoid a double bagel, but that's about it.
Anyone else have similar thoughts?

raiden031
12-10-2009, 06:31 AM
Several of my regular doubles partners enjoy mixed more than regular doubles or singles. I just can't get into it.
If anyone here has taken karate, it's similar to sparring with a woman. If you take it easy on her, pull some punches, she hits you a few times and begins talking trash (highly annoying). On the tennis court, you hit a few dinks to a woman, end up losing the point and you feel with a p/ssy. Especially if she high-fives her partner or celebrates in any manner.
If you play aggressive, pound the ball at the female, well, you're winning points against a female.
Similarly, if you begin popping a female in the face in sparring, well, you're an a//hole for kicking a woman's a//.
It's too frustrating and mentally exhausting for me to continually struggle with whether to hit to the female and what type of shot to hit.
There's never any guilt beating a guy. I've tanked a game before to avoid a double bagel, but that's about it.
Anyone else have similar thoughts?

What a cop-out. You're just afraid of being out-played by a woman. What you are saying is pure delusion. If a woman is willing to step on the court with you (or spar against you in karate), then they want to compete against you, not face a chicken.

Unless its a social match AND they say to you, "go easy on me because I know you're alot better than me", then you should go as hard as you need to go to get the job done.

Cindysphinx
12-10-2009, 06:54 AM
Yeah, I don't get it.

You're afraid to hit your biggest serve and biggest groundstroke to the woman? Why? I assure you that you cannot possibly serve the ball fast enough to hurt me. I won't return it, but I am capable of ducking.

Besides, if you're so far superior to your female opponent, you should be able to work her over without blasting the ball. You want to make me look like a fool? Hit a twist serve or a ridiculous topspin moonball. I'll freeze, I promise you.

No one has to play mixed or enjoy mixed. But let's not pretend the reason is that the guy's play is so far superior to that of the woman that she might get hurt if he plays his "A" game in a league match.

goran_ace
12-10-2009, 10:25 AM
Taking it easy on the woman, is disrespecting her as a player.

Mick
12-10-2009, 10:47 AM
my doubles partner is female and we are pretty successful against most of the all male doubles teams that we have played :)

she deserves the most of the credit because the other teams would hit most of the balls to her.

in our team, I play the supporting role. she plays the starring role.

jserve
12-10-2009, 12:42 PM
Yeah, I don't get it.

You're afraid to hit your biggest serve and biggest groundstroke to the woman? Why? I assure you that you cannot possibly serve the ball fast enough to hurt me. I won't return it, but I am capable of ducking.

Besides, if you're so far superior to your female opponent, you should be able to work her over without blasting the ball. You want to make me look like a fool? Hit a twist serve or a ridiculous topspin moonball. I'll freeze, I promise you.

No one has to play mixed or enjoy mixed. But let's not pretend the reason is that the guy's play is so far superior to that of the woman that she might get hurt if he plays his "A" game in a league match.

Its not that the men's game is so far superior to a woman's game. I think my overhead could do serious damage against a man or a woman, but I would feel a ton more guilt hitting a woman than I would a man, so I tend to avoid the situations where that would happen. It has nothing to do with the strength of a female player. In fact it doesn't even have anything to do with tennis. Its simply a matter of protecting my own conscience. If someone is disturbed by me holding back, then they can certainly make me pay by winning the points.

I have also seen plenty of male players that don't have a sense of guilt hitting the female opponents. I know that a lot of woman don't like playing them for these reasons, and call them a-holes behind their backs.

I guess there is no way to make everyone happy.

xcourt4hand
12-10-2009, 12:55 PM
...don't suggest swapping shirts after the game...

"don't stare at your attractive opponent..."

WHAAAAT!!!!

Surely that should read "Don't get CAUGHT staring at your attractive opponent"...

...and resist the temptation to pat your partners bottom after a good shot...

(more importantly resist the temptation to pat your opponents bottom(s) after a good shot...)

raiden031
12-10-2009, 12:59 PM
I have also seen plenty of male players that don't have a sense of guilt hitting the female opponents. I know that a lot of woman don't like playing them for these reasons, and call them a-holes behind their backs.


I think people should be apologetic when they hit anyone with the ball. This is not a contact sport, so the goal of winning the point should not revolve around hitting your opponents with the ball. If they call the men a-holes, its not because they should go easy on a female player, but because only a-holes seek to hit others with the tennis ball.

xcourt4hand
12-10-2009, 01:12 PM
I think people should be apologetic when they hit anyone with the ball. This is not a contact sport, so the goal of winning the point should not revolve around hitting your opponents with the ball. If they call the men a-holes, its not because they should go easy on a female player, but because only a-holes seek to hit others with the tennis ball.


True - I don't think anyone should aim to hit their opponent - male or female with the ball although there's nothing inn the rules against it - it's better to aim somewhere near their feet and one should definitely apologize if the ball accidentally hits one's opponent as can happen.

Having said that, I don't think it's wrong to aim at one's opponent if they're at the net and you're on the baseline and I've also had great fun playing against friends when we've purposely aimed at each other every opportunity we got - but that was on a mutually agreed understanding between friends...

nickynu
12-10-2009, 01:32 PM
"what should you expect?"

A= DRAMA !

GeoffB
12-10-2009, 03:29 PM
True - I don't think anyone should aim to hit their opponent - male or female with the ball although there's nothing inn the rules against it - it's better to aim somewhere near their feet and one should definitely apologize if the ball accidentally hits one's opponent as can happen.

Having said that, I don't think it's wrong to aim at one's opponent if they're at the net and you're on the baseline and I've also had great fun playing against friends when we've purposely aimed at each other every opportunity we got - but that was on a mutually agreed understanding between friends...


There's also the situation the best play is to go straight at one of the net players, hard. I'm pretty sure everyone has been in this situation before, especially in doubles. What happens is the opposing team floats the ball short for an easy sitter, then move toward the net and cut off the angle. You can't really pass or lob easily, because you're in the middle of the court, but you do have plenty of time to set up for the shot. In this case, you're probably best off trying to jam one of the net players inside.

This is that grey area that tends to generate some dirty looks. Hitting the other player isn't the explicit intention when you try to jam someone, but it's a very likely outcome.

Personally, I think that if you cut off the angle on a sitter, you pretty much give up on the right to complain, and most people seem to agree (if you're casually playing a pick up game with a wide skill gap, it's probably best not to do this, but if it's a competitive league, then I suspect almost everyone involved, male or female, will accept the consequences of cutting off the angle on a sitter...)

dragon2o00
12-10-2009, 08:12 PM
Its not that the men's game is so far superior to a woman's game. I think my overhead could do serious damage against a man or a woman, but I would feel a ton more guilt hitting a woman than I would a man, so I tend to avoid the situations where that would happen. It has nothing to do with the strength of a female player. In fact it doesn't even have anything to do with tennis. Its simply a matter of protecting my own conscience. If someone is disturbed by me holding back, then they can certainly make me pay by winning the points.

I have also seen plenty of male players that don't have a sense of guilt hitting the female opponents. I know that a lot of woman don't like playing them for these reasons, and call them a-holes behind their backs.

I guess there is no way to make everyone happy.

i know exactly what you're talking about. it's not a matter of not respecting the woman, it's just a lose lose situation. if you go after the woman, you're supposed to win the pt, as a guy. so if you lose it, it's not good but even if you get it, it's not that great either. i don't play much mixed but when i do, i just go after the guy hard.

an example, we played a friendly (but still very competitive) mixed and the opposing girl was a former D1 college, great junior type. she was somewhat rusty but still very good and gave our 4.0 guys some difficulty in singles. on one specific point, i finally told myself to pretend she was a guy, so on a 2nd serve, i took a very aggressive down the line return. she tried to volley but my return knocked her racquet back and she was grabbing her wrist in pain. this has happened in the past with male opponents but they try not to let it show. anyways, i felt awful and since then, couldn't do anything like that again. you just don't want to be in that situation. saying it's disrespectful to not go after the woman is fine until you end up in that situation and there is no gain from that.

J011yroger
12-10-2009, 08:45 PM
I dunno, I regularly practice with the 9.0&10.0 teams. It is an absolute blast. The girls are great, and about 1/2 of the guys are my normal practice partners.

I play straight up, just like I would in mens dubs. Sometimes if I have to fill in against a weaker team they will ask me to serve easy, but usually it is straight up playing.

Maybe it is different because I am playing with my friends, and all of the girls are very accomplished players?

My advice to you is don't go in with a bias, go have fun.


J

raiden031
12-11-2009, 03:54 AM
There's also the situation the best play is to go straight at one of the net players, hard. I'm pretty sure everyone has been in this situation before, especially in doubles. What happens is the opposing team floats the ball short for an easy sitter, then move toward the net and cut off the angle. You can't really pass or lob easily, because you're in the middle of the court, but you do have plenty of time to set up for the shot. In this case, you're probably best off trying to jam one of the net players inside.

This is that grey area that tends to generate some dirty looks. Hitting the other player isn't the explicit intention when you try to jam someone, but it's a very likely outcome.

Personally, I think that if you cut off the angle on a sitter, you pretty much give up on the right to complain, and most people seem to agree (if you're casually playing a pick up game with a wide skill gap, it's probably best not to do this, but if it's a competitive league, then I suspect almost everyone involved, male or female, will accept the consequences of cutting off the angle on a sitter...)

I think its a little odd that someone would want to close in on the net after they just hit a sitter...I've never seen it done, but if someone wants to play the net like that they are asking to get hit.

GeoffB
12-11-2009, 04:57 AM
I think its a little odd that someone would want to close in on the net after they just hit a sitter...I've never seen it done, but if someone wants to play the net like that they are asking to get hit.

Yeah, a "sitter" is an extreme example, and experienced players pretty much never close the net on a true sitter. But the same situation still arises when someone closes the net on a weak, short approach shot (where "weak" is relative to the skill level of the players).

FloridaAG
12-11-2009, 05:17 AM
I play mixed all the time - frankly it is just a judgment call - whoever the receiver is if male or female, if they are not particularly strong players I just spin my serve instead of serving full pace, do not try to peg anyone, and play hard and have fun. Really its just common sense and determining what your goals are in the game - win at all costs or have fun. While I am extremely competitive, I can certainly guage the situation and adjust -

dlk
12-11-2009, 06:57 AM
Maybe it's because I'm not that advanced of a player, but I don't even pay attention to who's accross the net (male vs. female), I play the same. If they're not protecting the line, I'm gonna fire a shot down the line as hard & deep as I can, regardless of if I believe they could get to it or not. Same for slams. I of course do not do this with my daughter, but she's not close to my level (8 y/o). But if you're good enough to be in the same league as me, I'm playing the same.
Not that I'm like, "I'm gonna punish or take advantage of the weaker player." I just concentrate on what I'm doing, who the opponent is does not matter, where the opponents are at is what matters. I know, clear as mud:)

xcourt4hand
12-11-2009, 09:32 AM
I play mixed all the time - frankly it is just a judgment call - whoever the receiver is if male or female, if they are not particularly strong players I just spin my serve instead of serving full pace, do not try to peg anyone, and play hard and have fun. Really its just common sense and determining what your goals are in the game - win at all costs or have fun. While I am extremely competitive, I can certainly guage the situation and adjust -

I think you've got it just about spot on, I try to use it as practice for my second serve against opponents who are clearly not as strong, socially more so than competition though, but in neither would I hit directly at the opponent unless from behind the baseline.

Ripper014
12-11-2009, 10:11 AM
I play mixed all the time - frankly it is just a judgment call - whoever the receiver is if male or female, if they are not particularly strong players I just spin my serve instead of serving full pace, do not try to peg anyone, and play hard and have fun. Really its just common sense and determining what your goals are in the game - win at all costs or have fun. While I am extremely competitive, I can certainly guage the situation and adjust -


I think that is key... but I also think for some men it is hard to play all out in mixed... I know I am one of them, but that is no fault of anyone but mine.

precision2b
12-11-2009, 12:01 PM
I play mixed all the time - frankly it is just a judgment call - whoever the receiver is if male or female, if they are not particularly strong players I just spin my serve instead of serving full pace, do not try to peg anyone, and play hard and have fun. Really its just common sense and determining what your goals are in the game - win at all costs or have fun. While I am extremely competitive, I can certainly guage the situation and adjust -

I agree. It's not to much fun beating up on someone who can't beat back... "Have Fun" am not going to be getting any pay checks for my play any time soon...

AlpineCadet
12-11-2009, 01:42 PM
Be nice if you want to have fun, you can even keep the scores close if you think you can manage. Save the winning for league?

raiden031
12-11-2009, 02:16 PM
I agree. It's not to much fun beating up on someone who can't beat back... "Have Fun" am not going to be getting any pay checks for my play any time soon...

As if the male opponent isn't beating up on your partner as well? It evens out regardless of how you look at it because both sides have a male and female partner. Besides, you don't have to target the weaker player...you can hit your shots completely based on the positioning of your opponents.

dlk
12-11-2009, 02:24 PM
As if the male opponent isn't beating up on your partner as well? It evens out regardless of how you look at it because both sides have a male and female partner. Besides, you don't have to target the weaker player...you can hit your shots completely based on the positioning of your opponents.

That's what I say.

J011yroger
12-11-2009, 02:37 PM
I think that is key... but I also think for some men it is hard to play all out in mixed... I know I am one of them, but that is no fault of anyone but mine.

Interesting concept. . . I feel as if I don't play full out, I am letting my partner down, and insulting my opponents. Like she is out on the court here to play with me, and they are here to play against me, the least I could do is give a crap.

I mean, if it is clearly practice matches, and we want to work on S&V, poaching, signaling, whatever, then we don't have to play to win at all costs, but I still care, and do the best I can (admittedly best I can with what I have is my general doubles motto, since my game is not at all built for it, but I do enjoy it.)

J

rogernext
12-14-2009, 11:31 AM
Tennis is about having fun. Enjoy it, win or lose. what turns me off is yellow sweat stains on my MXD partner's shirts, near where her armpit is. it's kind of gross.

Fedace
12-14-2009, 11:34 AM
If you hit a girl 3 times in a row, would you get kicked out of the leagues ??

J011yroger
12-14-2009, 11:43 AM
If you hit a girl 3 times in a row, would you get kicked out of the leagues ??

If you hit my partner three times in a row be they man or woman, you would have a lot more to worry about than getting kicked out of the league.

J

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 11:53 AM
Tennis is about having fun. Enjoy it, win or lose. what turns me off is yellow sweat stains on my MXD partner's shirts, near where her armpit is. it's kind of gross.

That's why I don't wear my white shirts unless I have no choice. Gotta reserve 'em for really hot days or they will all turn yellow like that.

J011yroger
12-14-2009, 12:02 PM
That's why I don't wear my white shirts unless I have no choice. Gotta reserve 'em for really hot days or they will all turn yellow like that.

Ya, I only wear whites when the dress code mandates it. I don't get pit stains, but then end up looking dingy no matter how you wash them. I've done cold water, oxy clean, Win, whatever, they just get dingy.

I give the Lacoste stuff to the dry cleaner, but even then try to limit.

J

EP1998
12-14-2009, 12:05 PM
If you hit a girl 3 times in a row, would you get kicked out of the leagues ??

very funny. if you hit a girl three times in a row then you're a crap player with no control and people probably wont want to play with you anyway!

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 12:08 PM
Ya, I only wear whites when the dress code mandates it. I don't get pit stains, but then end up looking dingy no matter how you wash them. I've done cold water, oxy clean, Win, whatever, they just get dingy.

I give the Lacoste stuff to the dry cleaner, but even then try to limit.

J

I've been meaning to try some Ritt products to see if they will help.

Ritt is that company that makes home fabric dye. They make a "color brightener" and a "color remover." Usually sold in drug stores.

The color remover is very strong and will remove all of the color from an item. The shirts I use are completely white, so I may give it a go and report back.

catfish
12-14-2009, 01:17 PM
I've been meaning to try some Ritt products to see if they will help.

Ritt is that company that makes home fabric dye. They make a "color brightener" and a "color remover." Usually sold in drug stores.

The color remover is very strong and will remove all of the color from an item. The shirts I use are completely white, so I may give it a go and report back.

Please let us know if it works. Sunscreen does the same thing to white shirts and white sports bras. But it's even more obvious since it's around the neckline & tank top straps.

goran_ace
12-14-2009, 01:27 PM
I played a fair amount of mixed doubles in tournament and league play and a couple times the guy on the other team has resorted to headhunting after losing the first set. The strange thing is that sometimes these people can be very nice before and after the match. I guess something about competition brings out the worst in some people.

One time, a guy was extremely obvious about going after my partner (even hit an overhead right at her) and she was really uncomfortable with it. So I fired a couple warning shots at his hip to let him know that I can hit harder and more accurately than he can. He got the message and backed off.

goran_ace
12-14-2009, 01:32 PM
I love how this thread got turned into a laundry discussion. For cotton, I add Clorox Ultimate Care bleach in the wash. For dri-fit or other moisture wicking fabrics I soak the clothes in bucket of water with a cup of white vinegar before washing.

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 03:13 PM
I love how this thread got turned into a laundry discussion. For cotton, I add Clorox Ultimate Care bleach in the wash. For dri-fit or other moisture wicking fabrics I soak the clothes in bucket of water with a cup of white vinegar before washing.

Hee!

I have been using Win with great results. It costs a fortune, but it is the only thing that works for me.

Topaz
12-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Please let us know if it works. Sunscreen does the same thing to white shirts and white sports bras. But it's even more obvious since it's around the neckline & tank top straps.

I do a bit of spot treating with oxyclean before washing them with my other stuff...does the trick for me.

Fedace
12-14-2009, 04:09 PM
very funny. if you hit a girl three times in a row then you're a crap player with no control and people probably wont want to play with you anyway!

no i meant opponent's girl.....:)

leeroy85
12-14-2009, 07:17 PM
Hit to the opponent that seems to give up the advantage in points.

equinox
12-14-2009, 08:42 PM
I think people should be apologetic when they hit anyone with the ball. This is not a contact sport, so the goal of winning the point should not revolve around hitting your opponents with the ball. If they call the men a-holes, its not because they should go easy on a female player, but because only a-holes seek to hit others with the tennis ball.

hahaha, everyone choosing to take the court risks getting pegged.
It's an accepted part of the game and we all peg and get pegged.
So we're all assh0les at some stage playing tennis.

imho in any league match women are fair game. Male intimidation (net crosses, body serves, return pegs, droppers) and playing to 100% of ones ability should be encouraged. League mixed is about winning at all costs and in so doing pleasing your partner enough so she doesn't go b!tching after the match. Female players who repeatedly quit midmatch should be weeded out of the team and replaced on regular basis.

Now social mixed is completely different, the level gaps can vary greatly.
It's not worth playing social mixed at any cost.

So overall mixed is a losing proposition for most males unless the have the correct attitude. It's a lose lose situation even if you win the matches.

One thing i see is very few young females playing mixed at all but highest levels..A
When a male is roped into filling in a mixed match they'll inevitably be paired with THE slowest crankest female past her used by date.

JUST NOT WORTH IT. MIXED JUST SAY NO.

J011yroger
12-14-2009, 09:03 PM
One thing i see is very few young females playing mixed at all but highest levels..

Wait...are you saying you see girls between 22-35 playing tennis anywhere?

I was unaware of such a thing.

It is like the black hole age gulf.

I probably know over 500 players, and I think 6 are girls between 22&35.

J

BreakPoint
12-14-2009, 10:02 PM
I'm about to play mixed doubles for the first time


May God have mercy on your soul. :lol:

Topaz
12-15-2009, 04:14 AM
Wait...are you saying you see girls between 22-35 playing tennis anywhere?

I was unaware of such a thing.

It is like the black hole age gulf.

I probably know over 500 players, and I think 6 are girls between 22&35.

J

Eh-hem.

I am between 22 and 35.

goran_ace
12-15-2009, 05:58 AM
Wait...are you saying you see girls between 22-35 playing tennis anywhere?

I was unaware of such a thing.

It is like the black hole age gulf.

I probably know over 500 players, and I think 6 are girls between 22&35.

J

Yeah no kidding. I completely agree. You can have open division singles tournament draws with only 4 or 5 women in it - and 1 or 2 of them might be a junior player. When I played an open mixed doubles tournament, of the seeded teams, roughly half played with female teaching pros and the other half played with juniors.

Cindysphinx
12-15-2009, 06:36 AM
One thing i see is very few young females playing mixed at all but highest levels..A
When a male is roped into filling in a mixed match they'll inevitably be paired with THE slowest crankest female past her used by date.


The reason you are not seeing young women in your mixed matches is that they are keeping their distance from guys like you.

Fedace
12-15-2009, 06:43 AM
The reason you are not seeing young women in your mixed matches is that they are keeping their distance from guys like you.

Cindi, i do agree with him. Cute young girls only play 4.5 level and up. I subbed in a 8.0 mixed match while back and they put me with this woman that is 3.5 that couldn't hit anything except her forehand. and she had these potmarks in both of her legs and i had to try my best not to look at it or risk throwing up...................:):)

Cindysphinx
12-15-2009, 06:49 AM
^Bottom line: You (and Equinox) will grow older, and you won't look so good either.

It is probably best to show some maturity and respect now when discussing older women. Meaning, stick to the tennis.

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:50 AM
I'm about to play mixed doubles for the first time


May God have mercy on your soul. :lol:

It is going to be in the Olympics.

But then so is golf.

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:51 AM
When a male is roped into filling in a mixed match they'll inevitably be paired with THE slowest crankest female past her used by date.


That is a very mean way of refering to post-menopausal women.

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:52 AM
Cindi, i do agree with him. Cute young girls only play 4.5 level and up. I subbed in a 8.0 mixed match while back and they put me with this woman that is 3.5 that couldn't hit anything except her forehand. and she had these potmarks in both of her legs and i had to try my best not to look at it or risk throwing up...................:):)

What is a potmark? Is it a pockmark or a pothole?

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:55 AM
To be honest, 18-35 is a black hole for men too. It is the time they are trying to study, work and start a family. The typical club demographics are juniors below 18 and then guys over 35.

abbeytxs
12-15-2009, 07:00 AM
Cindi, i do agree with him. Cute young girls only play 4.5 level and up. I subbed in a 8.0 mixed match while back and they put me with this woman that is 3.5 that couldn't hit anything except her forehand. and she had these potmarks in both of her legs and i had to try my best not to look at it or risk throwing up...................:):)

I wonder what she said about you...

ksteph
12-15-2009, 07:54 AM
What is a potmark? Is it a pockmark or a pothole?

I think he's referring to cellulite.

precision2b
12-15-2009, 09:56 AM
Cindi, i do agree with him. Cute young girls only play 4.5 level and up. I subbed in a 8.0 mixed match while back and they put me with this woman that is 3.5 that couldn't hit anything except her forehand. and she had these potmarks in both of her legs and i had to try my best not to look at it or risk throwing up...................:):)

That is a very mean way of refering to post-menopausal women.

What is a potmark? Is it a pockmark or a pothole?

Man this thread has a little of everything...

Raiden.Kaminari
12-15-2009, 04:11 PM
hahaha, everyone choosing to take the court risks getting pegged.
It's an accepted part of the game and we all peg and get pegged.

If you make a legitimate attempt to win a point (you're trying to hit the ball into the court), then pegging an opponent is fine.

If you're trying to harm an opponent (your ball hits the back fence before it hits the ground), it's considered unacceptable behavior and poor sportsmanship.

equinox
12-15-2009, 05:19 PM
That is a very mean way of refering to post-menopausal women.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Cindys above reply clearly reveals the truth. She's taken my general comments twisted them into a personal attack on herself and then replied in kind.. that's mean.

ok,

The majority of mixed games turn into an absolute spiteful oncourt b!tchfest between old ladies trying to win at any cost.
This leaves younger guys bemused and younger females intimidated from playing our game.
Logic dictates if you're over 40 and refuse to cover your own dropshots and lobs go take up golf. You're had it. finito.

The only area that older generation brings value to tennis in on club committees. there life experience and maturity can be put to good use.
Unfortunately instead of acting in a mentor role to the younger gen they hang on to power far to long stagnating club progress. Tennis needs a revolution in thinking which can only come from the younger gen.

I speak the truth and gladly cop the flak. every board needs its martyr to kick start a revolution.

Topaz
12-15-2009, 06:25 PM
^^^Oh please, don't flatter yourself.

For every spiteful on-court b*tchfest there is an equally annoying and damaging on-court testosterone overdose. If you're of any age and you continue to hit as hard as you can into the net (or better yet, the back wall) racking up error after error after error...then take up...well, anything else.

Go play your martyr card someplace else. This is a pretty weak attempt.

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:51 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way. Cindys above reply clearly reveals the truth. She's taken my general comments twisted them into a personal attack on herself and then replied in kind.. that's mean.

ok,

The majority of mixed games turn into an absolute spiteful oncourt b!tchfest between old ladies trying to win at any cost.
This leaves younger guys bemused and younger females intimidated from playing our game.
Logic dictates if you're over 40 and refuse to cover your own dropshots and lobs go take up golf. You're had it. finito.

The only area that older generation brings value to tennis in on club committees. there life experience and maturity can be put to good use.
Unfortunately instead of acting in a mentor role to the younger gen they hang on to power far to long stagnating club progress. Tennis needs a revolution in thinking which can only come from the younger gen.

I speak the truth and gladly cop the flak. every board needs its martyr to kick start a revolution.

Those old ladies (above the ripe old age of 40) are the ones who keep the tennis industry running. Some of them are breast cancer survivors, some of them are grandmas, and we would be lucky to be on the court at their age. Instead of being at home getting depressed, they are full of life, healthy, and staying fit as much as they can. If you don't like them, don't play with them.

I was asked to hit and play points with a 10 year old junior boy by his father today. He hits with massive topspin (modern tennis). I gave him a good workout and improved myself in the process. I am sure the boy would be thinking what a waste of time. Then time flies and he will be me one day. Same thing will happen to you.

leeroy85
12-15-2009, 07:03 PM
I played one season of mixed. The men went after my female partner. I could not bring myself to hit all out to female opponent.

Ripper014
12-15-2009, 08:54 PM
I played one season of mixed. The men went after my female partner. I could not bring myself to hit all out to female opponent.

Been there done that... and I have played many Mixed Tournies in the past as well... all my fault since I just cannot say no when asked.

When I play men's tennis I would be considered a power player both off the ground and through the air, but in mixed I temper my game... and play more of a touch game, which I am capable of doing but it is not in my nature.

Let me put this straight... as all my female partners get mad at me for not unleashing the big guns... but we usually win anyway. But my not playing a straight up power game against the women is no fault of theirs... it is my inability to man up against them, so these days I shy away from any competitive mixed doubles play. I do still play some friendly matches.

raiden031
12-16-2009, 03:03 AM
I just quit both my 7.0 and 8.0 mixed teams for the upcoming winter season. Had to make some sacrifices due to time and financial constraints. I decided I'd rather practice hitting drills than play competitively during the winter.

I didn't mind playing mixed and enjoyed it as long as my partner could keep the ball in play since 75% of the opponents shots would go to their half. At 8.0 it was fun because I always had a decent partner, but at 7.0 that wasn't always the case.

Cindysphinx
12-16-2009, 06:18 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way. Cindys above reply clearly reveals the truth. She's taken my general comments twisted them into a personal attack on herself and then replied in kind.. that's mean.

ok,

*I'm* mean? :shock:

I didn't turn your "general comments" into a personal attack on me. I really couldn't care less what some random dude on the Internet has to say about me.

There's simply no way I'm going to let such nasty and unnecessary remarks go unchallenged. And as it turns out, my hunch about you was correct because now we have this:

The majority of mixed games turn into an absolute spiteful oncourt b!tchfest between old ladies trying to win at any cost.
This leaves younger guys bemused and younger females intimidated from playing our game.
Logic dictates if you're over 40 and refuse to cover your own dropshots and lobs go take up golf. You're had it. finito.

Honestly, you've no idea what you are talking about. I have played plenty of mixed matches, and the women and men behave themselves just fine, for the most part. Neither gender tends to be spiteful or rude. Part of this may be because most everyone is over 40, and with age comes a certain mellowing and perspective about things. Again, I have to wonder if people are being spiteful toward you because you are so very spiteful yourself.

The only area that older generation brings value to tennis in on club committees. there life experience and maturity can be put to good use.
Unfortunately instead of acting in a mentor role to the younger gen they hang on to power far to long stagnating club progress. Tennis needs a revolution in thinking which can only come from the younger gen.

I speak the truth and gladly cop the flak. every board needs its martyr to kick start a revolution.
Eh, you're young. You'll learn someday.

Maybe.

Cindysphinx
12-16-2009, 06:20 AM
I just quit both my 7.0 and 8.0 mixed teams for the upcoming winter season. Had to make some sacrifices due to time and financial constraints. I decided I'd rather practice hitting drills than play competitively during the winter.


That's a bummer, but it was probably a smart idea. It sounds like you're serious about improving, and mixed probably isn't a great way for a guy to work on his strokes.

You'll be ready to kick some 4.0 butt in April, though. Can't wait to see it!

precision2b
12-16-2009, 08:50 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way. Cindys above reply clearly reveals the truth. She's taken my general comments twisted them into a personal attack on herself and then replied in kind.. that's mean.

ok,

The majority of mixed games turn into an absolute spiteful oncourt b!tchfest between old ladies trying to win at any cost.
This leaves younger guys bemused and younger females intimidated from playing our game.
Logic dictates if you're over 40 and refuse to cover your own dropshots and lobs go take up golf. You're had it. finito.

The only area that older generation brings value to tennis in on club committees. there life experience and maturity can be put to good use.
Unfortunately instead of acting in a mentor role to the younger gen they hang on to power far to long stagnating club progress. Tennis needs a revolution in thinking which can only come from the younger gen.

I speak the truth and gladly cop the flak. every board needs its martyr to kick start a revolution.

The Great “OZ” has spoken!!!!!:shock:

sureshs
12-16-2009, 02:28 PM
http://www.mrunconventional.com/content/images/DifferncesBetweenWomenAndMen_C35F/difference5.jpg

raiden031
12-16-2009, 03:13 PM
That's a bummer, but it was probably a smart idea. It sounds like you're serious about improving, and mixed probably isn't a great way for a guy to work on his strokes.

You'll be ready to kick some 4.0 butt in April, though. Can't wait to see it!

Well its mainly the cost...I think its somewhere around $45 just to be on a team, plus $15 court fees, and only 9 team matches. My team just won first place in a fall mixed league, and there is the pressure factor. I think my doubles game is really lousy right now and it showed in my last match and I've been losing alot in my block time as well.

J011yroger
12-17-2009, 02:03 PM
Eh-hem.

I am between 22 and 35.

Ok, then make it 7. :)

In your USTA league, what %of the girls are in the 22-30 age bracket?

In my experience most stop playing when they get out of college, and return when they are married/have kids which is around 30-35.

J

EP1998
12-18-2009, 08:20 AM
Ok, then make it 7. :)

In your USTA league, what %of the girls are in the 22-30 age bracket?

In my experience most stop playing when they get out of college, and return when they are married/have kids which is around 30-35.

J

I agree completely with this. Going back to that time I was very busy with work and just played when I could fit it in - did not want pressure to show up for a match. I also thought leagues were for another market.

ALten1
01-01-2010, 09:30 PM
I play mixed doubles because almost every shot is at a different pace and it makes me adjust often. I also try to hug my partner after each point, win or lose. Sometimes, depending on how the opposing female player looks, I will try to hug her during each changeover. Sure it gets awkward but I do it.

equinox
01-01-2010, 10:40 PM
If you hit my partner three times in a row be they man or woman, you would have a lot more to worry about than getting kicked out of the league.

J

If the anyone gets pegged three times then they're not paying enough attention and failing to move with the point flow.

No ones getting kicked from any competition league for pegging. Perfectly legal and legit tactic to target a weaker player in the attempt to win a point.

I could contribute to someones death from hitting a tennis ball during a point and legally i wouldn't be charged with manslaughter.

Please elaborate further jolly, I've just taken out your previously hot mixed partner and now she's being stretchered off in a coma! Your team has been ret (inj).

what are you going to do?

ALten1
01-02-2010, 03:34 AM
1. younger faster more fit plays higher level tennis usually
2. older slower less fit on the way down from higher level tennis plays lower level tennis.
3. I've found I shouldn't let up on female opponent because opposing male doesn't let up on my partner, esp. on serves
4. Thats me in the photo in above post

Question: They say there is a .5 difference between male/female players (4.0 female=3.5 male). I believe difference is greater, whats your take?

equinox
01-02-2010, 05:33 AM
Treat everyone equal in competition tennis. If they're clearly the weaker player and the percentage play is hitting straight through them, then by all means drop them to the deck.

The difference is higher, ntrp 1.0. 5.0 F would be competitive vs 4.0 M, beat a 3.5

Ripper014
01-02-2010, 07:45 AM
Treat everyone equal in competition tennis. If they're clearly the weaker player and the percentage play is hitting straight through them, then by all means drop them to the deck.

The difference is higher, ntrp 1.0. 5.0 F would be competitive vs 4.0 M, beat a 3.5



I have not played any high level female players recently... but back in the mid 90's I would say there was at least a full level difference. Currently I know a club player... who plays at between 4.0 - 4.5 level who is competitive with a female player that qualified and won a round in a satellite.

Steady Eddy
01-02-2010, 08:04 AM
I have not played any high level female players recently... but back in the mid 90's I would say there was at least a full level difference. Currently I know a club player... who plays at between 4.0 - 4.5 level who is competitive with a female player that qualified and won a round in a satellite.Ok, but maybe her game isn't up to what it was when she played then?

Ripper014
01-02-2010, 08:19 AM
Ok, but maybe her game isn't up to what it was when she played then?

No you are mistaking what I am saying... back in the mid 90's I used to play some of the best open players in my area. My friends and I handled them quite easily... as well as a few college players I knew who had gone on scholarships. Even back then when Navratilova was claiming she could beat number 1000 on the mens tour, Chris Evert was saying she would lose a good club player.

Currently... I know of a 4.0-4.5 player who plays with a young woman who qualified for a local satellite and won a round, and they are competitive. He does not have a big serve.. but has a nice solid all-round game.

Which is why I would say... that there is probably still at least a full level difference between men and women, at least in my area. Which is a major west coast city.

TennisNinja
01-02-2010, 11:43 AM
Hit to the girl, unless they are the better player obviously. Basically in mixed it's always "peg the girl". That's why playing mixed really sucks usually.

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 12:12 PM
I play mixed doubles because almost every shot is at a different pace and it makes me adjust often. I also try to hug my partner after each point, win or lose. Sometimes, depending on how the opposing female player looks, I will try to hug her during each changeover. Sure it gets awkward but I do it.
Have you ever been slapped or arrested for sexual harassment? :shock:

BreakPoint
01-03-2010, 12:14 PM
Question: They say there is a .5 difference between male/female players (4.0 female=3.5 male). I believe difference is greater, whats your take?
I'd say it's more like 2 levels difference, e.g., 4.0 female = 3.0 male.

ALten1
01-03-2010, 12:20 PM
Im usually in pretty close and hold the hug a little too long so when I finally do let go the anger has subsided.

Cindysphinx
01-03-2010, 06:43 PM
I'd say it's more like 2 levels difference, e.g., 4.0 female = 3.0 male.

4.0 woman destroys 3.0 male. If he is 3.0, he is either brand new, completely wild or has considerable mobility issues.

My dear husband would be a 3.0 because he doesn't play much, and I can beat him and I am only a 3.5.

equinox
01-03-2010, 07:16 PM
lol, you must be dreaming cindy.

He tanks because he knows the consequences of ticking off his ultra competitive tennis wife. hmmm difficult decision..

Steady Eddy
01-03-2010, 10:17 PM
One time at drop in only one other person showed up! She was a 4.0 league player and I'm a 3.5. I beat her pretty easily, so maybe a good 3.0 would have been a better match. (Where I play the good 3.0s are WAY better than the crummy 3.0s. The crummy male 3.0s wouldn't be a threat to anyone who is reasonably steady.) So I'd say that sometimes a 3.0 male is a fair match to a 4.0 woman. Sometimes not.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 12:28 AM
4.0 woman destroys 3.0 male. If he is 3.0, he is either brand new, completely wild or has considerable mobility issues.

My dear husband would be a 3.0 because he doesn't play much, and I can beat him and I am only a 3.5.
Not a beginner. A beginner should really be a 1.0. There are plenty of 3.0 men that have been playing for decades and know all the tricks in the book.

OTOH, I have played with plenty of 4.0 women whom if I didn't know that they were rated 4.0's, I would have thought that they were beginners.

It really is almost painful for me to play with or against them. Sorry, but that's the honest truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.

ALten1
01-04-2010, 03:40 AM
When I played as a 3.0 I was teamed with a lot of lower end 3.0s, took awhile to move up. I could beat any 3.5 or 4.0 women and a lot of 3.5 guys. People seem to get dumped up faster if they play singles so I decided to play more singles. 3.0 has a wide range of playing ability so I don't agree with a 4.0 woman being able to destroy a 3.0 guy.
I will say that last night I witnessed a 3.5 woman (best I've seen) that had great topspin on either side of her strokes and good pace and a good spin serve. I'm glad I haven't met up against her in a match............

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 03:58 AM
^The ratings have been adjusted, as you all know. I have taken a peek at the guys who remain at 3.0. I know some of them. The 4.0 women I know could take them. I am talking about computer-rated 3.0 guys, not the self-rated sandbaggers.

Topaz
01-04-2010, 04:15 AM
Ah, here we go again.

Honestly, Cindy, save your breath. They won't and don't get it.

Their egos won't allow it.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 04:28 AM
I know. They all think they can beat Sharapova.

:huge eye roll:

tfm1973
01-04-2010, 04:35 AM
lol. are we talking about ratings differences between men and women again?!

in my experience it's been at least .5 rating difference and as much as 1.25 rating difference depending on matchups and sandbaggery. i've seen an awful lot of strong 4.5 players (sandbagging or not) who go toe to toe with 6.0 women. most times because of pace (men hit harder usually) and court coverage (men are faster usually). consistency almost always goes to the higher rated player regardless of gender.

my 2 cents.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 05:02 AM
lol. are we talking about ratings differences between men and women again?!


Yes, that tired old subject again.

How come we don't spend nearly as much time discussing the ratings differences between juniors and super-seniors? :)

equinox
01-04-2010, 05:21 AM
^The ratings have been adjusted, as you all know. I have taken a peek at the guys who remain at 3.0. I know some of them. The 4.0 women I know could take them. I am talking about computer-rated 3.0 guys, not the self-rated sandbaggers.

One of my former clubs run an open club championship.
I watched a consistent, fast and fit 4.0 female take on a inconsistent big hitting, predictable big serving 6'4 3.0. The 4.0 lost like 64 63, just overpowered by dtl flat serves and big fh shots and perhaps the competitiveness of male pride. A 4.0 F wouldn't a win most of the time against a 3.0 M.

raiden031
01-04-2010, 06:51 AM
One of my former clubs run an open club championship.
I watched a consistent, fast and fit 4.0 female take on a inconsistent big hitting, predictable big serving 6'4 3.0. The 4.0 lost like 64 63, just overpowered by dtl flat serves and big fh shots and perhaps the competitiveness of male pride. A 4.0 F wouldn't a win most of the time against a 3.0 M.

There is a woman I know who plays exclusively 3.5 singles, and she wins at least 80% of her matches year after year. She is the perfect example of a "solid 3.5" female singles player. I started playing her during my first year of USTA where I won about half my matches at 3.0 men's singles. The first couple times I played her I would win like 6-4, 6-4, and she maybe won a set off me here and there, but then I eventually started bageling her and breadsticking her nearly every set after several months.

I would guestimate that when I was a true 3.0, I would be competitive with a low 4.0 woman, but probably would've lost to more solid 4.0 women, but they wouldn't have destroyed me. So I'd say a 4.0W is a little bit better than a 3.0M, and would be competitive with lower 3.5Ms.

I think in doubles though, the 4.0W would probably be even more better than a 3.0M because doubles is more a game of experience.

sureshs
01-04-2010, 07:29 AM
I'd say it's more like 2 levels difference, e.g., 4.0 female = 3.0 male.

Not really. 3.0 males suck. 4 and 3.5 is more realistic. But often consistent 4.0 females are better partners in the long run than inconsistent 3.5 males.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 08:00 AM
I am pretty sure I have already posted my experiences in this thread but after reading what Cindy and Topaz have to say... I want to add something.

Even though I agree with what the men have posted here... that the level is at least a full level... ie. 4.0 Woman to a 3.0 Man.

I think the division between men and women increase even more as that the skill levels go up. I believe a solid 4.5 Man could easily compete with a 6.0 Woman.

In doubles... I think it is a whole different ball game... in doubles it is about the skill sets you bring to the table, and your ability to play sound tennis. In singles... at sub 4.5 levels you can just run around and keep the ball in play long enough for the other player to miss.

sureshs
01-04-2010, 08:12 AM
I am pretty sure I have already posted my experiences in this thread but after reading what Cindy and Topaz have to say... I want to add something.

Even though I agree with what the men have posted here... that the level is at least a full level... ie. 4.0 Woman to a 3.0 Man.

I think the division between men and women increase even more as that the skill levels go up. I believe a solid 4.5 Man could easily compete with a 6.0 Woman.

In doubles... I think it is a whole different ball game... in doubles it is about the skill sets you bring to the table, and your ability to play sound tennis. In singles... at sub 4.5 levels you can just run around and keep the ball in play long enough for the other player to miss.

A "solid" 4.5 man cannot even compete with a Div 2 female player.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 08:18 AM
One of my former clubs run an open club championship.
I watched a consistent, fast and fit 4.0 female take on a inconsistent big hitting, predictable big serving 6'4 3.0. The 4.0 lost like 64 63, just overpowered by dtl flat serves and big fh shots and perhaps the competitiveness of male pride. A 4.0 F wouldn't a win most of the time against a 3.0 M.

Was this club championship today? 'Cause I think the rating adjustment changed who is left behind at 3.0 considerably. The new ratings matter a lot at the lowest levels.

Anyway, if we are going to post anecdotes, here is mine.

I have played with 3.0 guys on two occasions.

One occasion was when I happened upon a 3.0 male team in team practice. They needed a fourth, so I (a new 3.5) played with them. They were all nice gentlemen. Their strokes all looked good, and they hit with nice pace. Their problem was that their serves and groundstrokes rarely found the court, and their BHs were not so good. I was without question the strongest player, and this was a 3.0 team that won their division that season.

That same spring, there was a 3.0 guy who subbed in for my 3.5 team practice. I partnered with him against two 50-plus women. These two women were not strong; I would use them on Court Three against weaker opponents. My male partner and I could not win a game. He couldn't get a serve in, and they simply sent the ball to him and waited for him to miss. They did not have to wait for long. This fellow was moved up from 3.0 to 3.5 this November.

Now let's talk about 4.0 women. A 4.0 woman who plays 8.0 mixed (as many of them do) is used to seeing serves from 4.0-4.5 guys, guys who make a habit of getting their first serves into the box. Is a 3.0 going to throw a serve at her that she can't return? Not often, especially when you consider how many serves he will miss. The 3.0 will also lack the technique to punish the 4.0's serve, assuming she has a slow serve.

Think about it. Wasn't the whole purpose of the NTRP rating adjustment to fix a system that had become out of whack? Haven't the TT men been howling for weeks about how many more men were moved up than women? Isn't it logical that the result would be a 4.0 woman killing a 3.0 guy?

No offense to any 3.0 guys, of course. We are all learning and we all have vulnerabilities. That is why I say the smart money is on the 4.0 woman against the 3.0 guy. JMHO.

Dave Mc
01-04-2010, 08:21 AM
The only time I ever actually like playing mixed was decades ago when I played line #1 on a 5.0 mixed league team with our club's female pro who was a former top NCAA D-I player. There was no holding back, because all the women in the league could handle it. But all my other mixed doubles experience have been with my 4.0 wife, usually against other 4.0 women, and I've always felt trapped between a rock and a hard place. Apparently for the male player, the idea is to win as casually as you can. Because if I play too hard, then the female opponent will think I'm an overly aggressive pig. But if I play too casual and fall behind, then my wife will scold me. So I just avoid mixed doubles altogether ;-)

psp2
01-04-2010, 08:48 AM
A "solid" 4.5 man cannot even compete with a Div 2 female player.

Agree 100%.

pc1
01-04-2010, 09:19 AM
I used to play doubles regularly with a woman who played on her tennis team. She was a great player and was single minded about winning. If someone was off their game that day she wasn't above blasting the ball at the net man to win the point. We all alternated who would play with who but usually it was three men and her for doubles and she was best of all of us in doubles. No one let up on anyone and frankly I don't think she would have wanted it that way.

Incidentally she was my favorite doubles partner. Never missed a volley. It always amused me but just before she would put away a shot, she would grin and put it away.

My wife couldn't stand her because when my wife played doubles with us she would pick on my wife who is a good player but generally the weakest of the four. That always put me in a little bit of an odd situation because I couldn't really say much against my favorite doubles partner but at the same time I couldn't side against my wife. :confused:

raiden031
01-04-2010, 09:38 AM
A "solid" 4.5 man cannot even compete with a Div 2 female player.

This is highly untrue when stated like this. There is too much variation among tennis programs to make a statement like this. There are Division 1 college tennis players who would probably not even be rated above a solid 4.0.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 10:28 AM
Well I disagree... though I don't get to play many high ranked women anymore... I do still get to hit with the occasional one. I also know of a 4.5 male who plays on a regular basis with a female that qualified and won a round in Challenger Tournament here last year, he is competitive with her.

In the past I have had female friends that played Div 1 on a scholarship... I also played with some local open female players. I played at a 5.0 level at the time... and did not have problems beating them. I felt I had more power on demand and better court movement than any of them.

This is not to say women are not good tennis players... they can be. All I am saying is that given the same skills the man is going to be stronger and faster than a woman, no bias meant. it is just the way it is.

Given this conclusion... and I believe a valid one, the phyiscal advantages give the male player IMHO at least a 1.0 level over his female counterpart. With the disclaimer that in the lower levels... both sexes are still learning to just keep the ball in play, so the physical advantages are not as meaningful.

pennc94
01-04-2010, 10:37 AM
I think people can argue all day about the perceived relative difference in ability seen in a given NTRP between men and women. Is it 1 full point? Is it 0.5 point? I am not sure. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of people who play/observe leagues will agree there is a difference.

I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women. Why is there a difference? Same thing goes for senior (defined by USTA as 50+ at this point) and also doubles and mixed doubles only players. It is not perfect, but there should not be such obvious differences in ability for the same NTRP based on sex, age, or whatever.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Was this club championship today? 'Cause I think the rating adjustment changed who is left behind at 3.0 considerably. The new ratings matter a lot at the lowest levels.

Anyway, if we are going to post anecdotes, here is mine.

I have played with 3.0 guys on two occasions.

One occasion was when I happened upon a 3.0 male team in team practice. They needed a fourth, so I (a new 3.5) played with them. They were all nice gentlemen. Their strokes all looked good, and they hit with nice pace. Their problem was that their serves and groundstrokes rarely found the court, and their BHs were not so good. I was without question the strongest player, and this was a 3.0 team that won their division that season.

That same spring, there was a 3.0 guy who subbed in for my 3.5 team practice. I partnered with him against two 50-plus women. These two women were not strong; I would use them on Court Three against weaker opponents. My male partner and I could not win a game. He couldn't get a serve in, and they simply sent the ball to him and waited for him to miss. They did not have to wait for long. This fellow was moved up from 3.0 to 3.5 this November.

Now let's talk about 4.0 women. A 4.0 woman who plays 8.0 mixed (as many of them do) is used to seeing serves from 4.0-4.5 guys, guys who make a habit of getting their first serves into the box. Is a 3.0 going to throw a serve at her that she can't return? Not often, especially when you consider how many serves he will miss. The 3.0 will also lack the technique to punish the 4.0's serve, assuming she has a slow serve.

Think about it. Wasn't the whole purpose of the NTRP rating adjustment to fix a system that had become out of whack? Haven't the TT men been howling for weeks about how many more men were moved up than women? Isn't it logical that the result would be a 4.0 woman killing a 3.0 guy?

No offense to any 3.0 guys, of course. We are all learning and we all have vulnerabilities. That is why I say the smart money is on the 4.0 woman against the 3.0 guy. JMHO.



Doubles is a different game... I thought we were talking man on man... or more aptly woman vs man.

Ok... then in that case... does Cindy think she can beat a 4.0 man..? If not... then how much of a difference in ability would there between men and women.

I used to play with a female friend on a regular basis... so commented to my significant other that she thought she could beat me. I just laughed it off... I never did more than feed balls to her. Anyway... one afternoon she wanted to have a practices session so I indulged her. About 20 minutes in she wanted to play a set... so I said ok... and promptly beat her 6-0 in about 15 minutes, I did it without hitting hard or even working up a sweat. She quickly realized... that either she was not as good as she thought she was or I was a lot better than she thought. She never challenged me in singles again.

I am not saying this happens all the time... but I know that a lot of men do not play their best game against women. We are not trying to patronize anyone... but we just want to have a nice hit without any drama.

I think the hardest thing for most of us to do is to be able to evaluate ourselves... and how we stack up against others. And I truly believe the majority of us overrate how we play... or underestimate others.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 10:41 AM
I think people can argue all day about the perceived relative difference in ability seen in a given NTRP between men and women. Is it 1 full point? Is it 0.5 point? I am not sure. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of people who play/observe leagues will agree there is a difference.

I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women. Why is there a difference? Same thing goes for senior (defined by USTA as 50+ at this point) and also doubles and mixed doubles only players. It is not perfect, but there should not be such obvious differences in ability for the same NTRP based on sex, age, or whatever.


Interesting point... but the only way you can truly do that is to have men and women play each other. So are you suggesting we do away with womens and mens draws, and start a new category of mixed singles? And mixed up doubles... where you can have 2 men competiting against 2 women... or any combination inbetween.

raiden031
01-04-2010, 10:48 AM
I think people can argue all day about the perceived relative difference in ability seen in a given NTRP between men and women. Is it 1 full point? Is it 0.5 point? I am not sure. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of people who play/observe leagues will agree there is a difference.

I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women. Why is there a difference? Same thing goes for senior (defined by USTA as 50+ at this point) and also doubles and mixed doubles only players. It is not perfect, but there should not be such obvious differences in ability for the same NTRP based on sex, age, or whatever.

First is that the rating system is supposed to describe playing abilities from the bottom all the way up to the top. That means the top rungs (ie. 7.0) is world-class pro (both males and females), and the bottom rungs are the various USTA league levels. By using the same scale, that means women will never be rated above a 6.0 or so.

Also the 'player skill descriptions' of the lower levels will be less valid because a woman who has all the skills of say a 4.5 might only be competitive with say a 3.5. Although this doesn't matter because we all know the descriptions don't work regardless because everyone has their own skillset and there is no generalized way to describe an arbitrary NTRP level.

And of course the main issue is that they must have co-ed leagues in order to keep the ratings synchronized. Many people are opposed to playing in these leagues and would rather play with players of the same gender, age, race, sexual orientation, and of course with those of the same fashion sense....effectively taking away some of the benefits provided by NTRP anyways.

sureshs
01-04-2010, 10:50 AM
This is highly untrue when stated like this. There is too much variation among tennis programs to make a statement like this. There are Division 1 college tennis players who would probably not even be rated above a solid 4.0.

I have played against a Div 2 female and several USTA 4.5 males. No comparison.

pennc94
01-04-2010, 10:53 AM
Interesting point... but the only way you can truly do that is to have men and women play each other. So are you suggesting we do away with womens and mens draws, and start a new category of mixed singles? And mixed up doubles... where you can have 2 men competiting against 2 women... or any combination inbetween.

Not exactly sure what the answer is, but the current system produces visible disparities in the same NTRP (for the typical league player i.e. 5.0 and down) by sex, age, and double-specialist.

raiden031
01-04-2010, 10:54 AM
I have played against a Div 2 female and several USTA 4.5 males. No comparison.

I've played against D-1 females who are no better than me. I played against a former D-1 male from a large school who is only a 4.5 player! So who is right and who is wrong?

Steady Eddy
01-04-2010, 11:01 AM
Not exactly sure what the answer is, but the current system produces visible disparities in the same NTRP (for the typical league player i.e. 5.0 and down) by sex, age, and double-specialist.A doubles player in singles can be a fish out of water, and vice versa. The USTA website states that there is a .5 gap between the sexes which can increase to a 1.0 gap at the highest levels. But I don't think this should happen for age. If a player was 5.5 in her youth, but now is competitive with 3.5s, then she's a 3.5. Or is she an honorary 5.5 in the same way a general is a general even after he's retired?

raiden031
01-04-2010, 11:06 AM
A doubles player in singles can be a fish out of water, and vice versa. The USTA website states that there is a .5 gap between the sexes which can increase to a 1.0 gap at the highest levels. But I don't think this should happen for age. If a player was 5.5 in her youth, but now is competitive with 3.5s, then she's a 3.5. Or is she an honorary 5.5 in the same way a general is a general even after he's retired?

One thing I think can happen is that aging, declining players can hang on to a level they no longer can compete in by playing only doubles, and by competing in senior leagues along with adult leagues. The senior leagues help skew the ratings just enough since they don't lose all their matches badly as they might in the adult league, because they are playing against other declining players. This will help them keep from getting bumped down.

pennc94
01-04-2010, 11:07 AM
A doubles player in singles can be a fish out of water, and vice versa. The USTA website states that there is a .5 gap between the sexes which can increase to a 1.0 gap at the highest levels. But I don't think this should happen for age. If a player was 5.5 in her youth, but now is competitive with 3.5s, then she's a 3.5. Or is she an honorary 5.5 in the same way a general is a general even after he's retired?

My point about age is that some folks play both adult and senior leagues. Their NTRP gets bumped (say from 4.0 to 4.5) based largely on success in senior play, and then the adults (in 4.5) end up having to play a glorified 4.0.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Doubles is a different game... I thought we were talking man on man... or more aptly woman vs man.

Yes, doubles is a different game. I highly doubt the 3.0 guys I mentioned would do better in singles. They couldn't keep their serves in the box or keep their groundies in the court.

Ok... then in that case... does Cindy think she can beat a 4.0 man..? If not... then how much of a difference in ability would there between men and women.

No. I am a 3.5, so I couldn't beat a 4.0 woman in singles, let alone a 4.0 man.

My singles play is just awful. I have only once taken a set off of another 3.5 woman. I think I could do better this year, but I have completely quit singles now and forever because of my knee woes.
[/QUOTE]

ALten1
01-04-2010, 12:01 PM
I like cindysphinx's spunk, but I'm sticking with the guys.

Steady Eddy
01-04-2010, 12:08 PM
No you are mistaking what I am saying... back in the mid 90's I used to play some of the best open players in my area. My friends and I handled them quite easily... as well as a few college players I knew who had gone on scholarships. Even back then when Navratilova was claiming she could beat number 1000 on the mens tour, Chris Evert was saying she would lose a good club player.

Currently... I know of a 4.0-4.5 player who plays with a young woman who qualified for a local satellite and won a round, and they are competitive. He does not have a big serve.. but has a nice solid all-round game.

Which is why I would say... that there is probably still at least a full level difference between men and women, at least in my area. Which is a major west coast city.My teaching pro from the 70's won a set against Chris Evert on clay, and he was in his 60's then. I was really impressed by that because Evert was really tough on clay, and even though it was obvious that she was consistent, she also had some decent power.

I think Navratilova's claim that she could beat #1000 was false. But I also think that Evert wouldn't lose to many club players for two reasons: she made so few UEs, and most guys aren't quick enough to get her deadly drop shots.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 12:14 PM
My teaching pro from the 70's won a set against Chris Evert on clay, and he was in his 60's then. I was really impressed by that because Every was really tough on clay, and even though it was obvious that she was consistent, she also had some decent power.

I think Navratilova's claim that she could beat #1000 was false. But I also think that Evert wouldn't lose to many club players for two reasons: she made so few UEs, and most guys aren't quick enough to get her deadly drop shots.



I didn't make the claim that Evert would lose to a club player she did. But I think you made the point that a 60 year-old teaching pro took a set of a Chris Evert in her prime. If he took one... why is it so hard to believe he could not take two and on clay...


Actually I have to make a correction... I think Navratilova said she could beat the number 100 on her surface of choice. Evert said she could not beat 1000... let alone some club players. Again this is to the best of my recollection... that was a lot of years ago.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 12:17 PM
Yes, doubles is a different game. I highly doubt the 3.0 guys I mentioned would do better in singles. They couldn't keep their serves in the box or keep their groundies in the court.



No. I am a 3.5, so I couldn't beat a 4.0 woman in singles, let alone a 4.0 man.

My singles play is just awful. I have only once taken a set off of another 3.5 woman. I think I could do better this year, but I have completely quit singles now and forever because of my knee woes.
[/QUOTE]


I like her spunk too... but a 3.0 would probably do better in a singles match straight up against her. He would not need to worry about hitting a good serve... and he could return anywhere in the court, not having to worry about the net person. Then it would become a game of attrition and I would take the guy with the better knees.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Ah, here we go again.

Honestly, Cindy, save your breath. They won't and don't get it.

Their egos won't allow it.
Nothing to do with ego. Just personal experience.

I would love to be able to find a 4.0 or 4.5 women that played at the same level as a 4.0 or 4.5 man to play mixed doubles with. But I've yet to run into one in my decades of playing tennis. :(

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 12:50 PM
I like her spunk too... but a 3.0 would probably do better in a singles match straight up against her. He would not need to worry about hitting a good serve... and he could return anywhere in the court, not having to worry about the net person. Then it would become a game of attrition and I would take the guy with the better knees.

Ah, but that's not the comparison. You boys were saying that a 4.0 woman couldn't beat a 3.0 guy. 1.0 difference, remember?

I'm not a 4.0 woman. I'm 3.5. And if you can find a genuine computer-rated 2.5 guy, bring him on over. I think I could take him. I would hang up my rackets if I couldn't.

FloridaAG
01-04-2010, 12:50 PM
I think many on the board overestimate the relative disparity between the genders especially as it relates to doubles -

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 12:50 PM
So I just avoid mixed doubles altogether ;-)
That's the best advice I've seen here yet. :)

I've also avoided mixed doubles for a few seasons.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 12:54 PM
I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women. Why is there a difference? Same thing goes for senior (defined by USTA as 50+ at this point) and also doubles and mixed doubles only players. It is not perfect, but there should not be such obvious differences in ability for the same NTRP based on sex, age, or whatever.
I guess for the same reason there's a huge difference between a 7.0 WTA pro and a 7.0 ATP pro.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 12:58 PM
I have played against a Div 2 female and several USTA 4.5 males. No comparison.
Yeah, but how about when they play against each other? :shock:

pennc94
01-04-2010, 01:00 PM
I guess for the same reason there's a huge difference between a 7.0 WTA pro and a 7.0 ATP pro.

When I say "I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women" I mean that in the context of NTRP level typical of league play (5.0 and below).

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 01:05 PM
When I say "I wish that a 4.0 meant the same thing for men and women" I mean that in the context of NTRP level typical of league play (5.0 and below).
Yes, I understand, but I'm just pointing out that there's a disparity at all levels of NTRP, all the way up to 7.0. I think the only time men and women are near the same level is when they are both absolute raw beginners and pick up racquets for the very first time.

Steady Eddy
01-04-2010, 01:14 PM
I think many on the board overestimate the relative disparity between the genders especially as it relates to doubles -Where I play doubles they put together the foursomes based on their self-rating, men and women play together. They just go by how you rate yourself, and the play is usually balanced. I don't notice that the team with the woman usually loses or anything like that.

There's some rating inflation. Newbees sign up @ 3.5, the rest sign up @ 4.0 or 4.5. One lady always signs in @ 5.0. She has a good forehand, never comes to the net, she just rallies cross-court all day with her forehand. (I don't know if she can hit a backhand). She's never hit an overhead. That's not 5.0 tennis!

OrangePower
01-04-2010, 01:42 PM
Funny to see the debate over comparison of men's vs women's rating, when even within each gender-specific level there is so much disparity.

What I mean is, even according to USTA, it would not be unusual for someone at the top of a level to beat someone at the bottom of the same level 0 & 0. And then throw into this the fact that there is no differentiation between singles and doubles when it comes to rating.

So we can argue all day whether a 4.0 woman would beat a 3.5 man or a 3.0 man or whatever, but the reality is that there is so much variation within each of these levels and based on singles vs doubles that all our anecdotes are meaningless unless there is very specific context established.

Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

I have a good friend who is a top 4.5 female singles specialist. I would put her dynamic rating at around 4.4. She sometimes plays against another friend of mine, who is a male mid-level 4.0 playing mostly dubs. In singles, I'd put his dynamic rating at around 3.6. They are very competitive. So I estimate a 0.8 difference between male vs female, or about 1.5 NTRP levels.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 02:00 PM
Ah, but that's not the comparison. You boys were saying that a 4.0 woman couldn't beat a 3.0 guy. 1.0 difference, remember?

I'm not a 4.0 woman. I'm 3.5. And if you can find a genuine computer-rated 2.5 guy, bring him on over. I think I could take him. I would hang up my rackets if I couldn't.

I think I also said that as the skills improve the division gets larger. I am sure I cited that a 2.5 man and woman would be on a pretty even keel. Well maybe... I don't know what 2.5 men and women play like. But I do believe as the levels go up... the level of play gets further apart.

ie. the current number 1 man against the current number 1 woman... no contest.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Funny to see the debate over comparison of men's vs women's rating, when even within each gender-specific level there is so much disparity.

What I mean is, even according to USTA, it would not be unusual for someone at the top of a level to beat someone at the bottom of the same level 0 & 0. And then throw into this the fact that there is no differentiation between singles and doubles when it comes to rating.

So we can argue all day whether a 4.0 woman would beat a 3.5 man or a 3.0 man or whatever, but the reality is that there is so much variation within each of these levels and based on singles vs doubles that all our anecdotes are meaningless unless there is very specific context established.

Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

I have a good friend who is a top 4.5 female singles specialist. I would put her dynamic rating at around 4.4. She sometimes plays against another friend of mine, who is a male mid-level 4.0 playing mostly dubs. In singles, I'd put his dynamic rating at around 3.6. They are very competitive. So I estimate a 0.8 difference between male vs female, or about 1.5 NTRP levels.



Like I said this has been my experience...

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 03:44 PM
I think I also said that as the skills improve the division gets larger. I am sure I cited that a 2.5 man and woman would be on a pretty even keel. Well maybe... I don't know what 2.5 men and women play like. But I do believe as the levels go up... the level of play gets further apart.

ie. the current number 1 man against the current number 1 woman... no contest.

OK. I just know my BS Alarm started clanging when I heard someone say a 4.0 woman loses to a 3.0 guy.

I will defer to others on what happens at higher level play. I have no idea. At the lower levels with which I am most familiar, a lot of the guys have issues with control and cannot take good advantage of their height and strength.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 03:51 PM
OK. I just know my BS Alarm started clanging when I heard someone say a 4.0 woman loses to a 3.0 guy.

I will defer to others on what happens at higher level play. I have no idea. At the lower levels with which I am most familiar, a lot of the guys have issues with control and cannot take good advantage of their height and strength.

Oh... I didn't say a 4.0 woman would clean up on a 3.0 man... I still believe it would be a good match-up... even you (a "good" 3.5) were feeling challenged playing a weak 3.0 man you played recently in doubles.

I played a woman who was supposed to have been a pro in her country last week... (I didn't find out til after) and yes you could tell she had some formal training... and she moved well... and she had a nice forehand. But it was not enough to challenge me... granted we were playing doubles... but trust me she was not the best player on the court.

OrangePower
01-04-2010, 03:57 PM
OK. I just know my BS Alarm started clanging when I heard someone say a 4.0 woman loses to a 3.0 guy.

I will defer to others on what happens at higher level play. I have no idea. At the lower levels with which I am most familiar, a lot of the guys have issues with control and cannot take good advantage of their height and strength.

I would agree in general (that a 4.0 woman beats a 3.0 guy) but would again stress that there is so much variation within each level that anything is possible.

For example, a weak 4.0 woman might have a dynamic rating of 3.55 and be more of a dubs player; if she plays against a strong 3.0 singles specialist guy with a dynamic rating of 2.95, my money would be on the guy in a close match. In this case the rating diff is only 0.6, and there is the dubs versus singles factor.

But that's an extreme example. More typical average 4.0 woman (dynamic 3.75) would handle average 3.0 guy (dynamic 2.75, diff of 1.0).

equinox
01-04-2010, 04:17 PM
A "solid" 4.5 man cannot even compete with a Div 2 female player.

wtf, I'm not even a 4.5 and i went down 1 5 against a current starting lineup d2 guy top 300 national.

A 4.5 guy is more than competitive against d2 girl.

Only the way college girl wins is if she flashes her breasts as distraction.

equinox
01-04-2010, 04:33 PM
Ah, but that's not the comparison. You boys were saying that a 4.0 woman couldn't beat a 3.0 guy. 1.0 difference, remember?

I'm not a 4.0 woman. I'm 3.5. And if you can find a genuine computer-rated 2.5 guy, bring him on over. I think I could take him. I would hang up my rackets if I couldn't.

I'm "officially" "computer" rated 2.5 / itn8 player.

Cindy could you take me on?

I'm shorty white guy with overgrown hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeuR25r-D0Q

Prepare to hang up your rackets..

equinox
01-04-2010, 04:42 PM
Interesting point... but the only way you can truly do that is to have men and women play each other. So are you suggesting we do away with womens and mens draws, and start a new category of mixed singles? And mixed up doubles... where you can have 2 men competiting against 2 women... or any combination inbetween.

The district comp i played in a few years back instituted open tennis at jr and then snr levels.

There's plenty of girls playing against boys in the juniors. Even entire teams full of girls.

Once the girls entered seniors, they dropped out of singles competition. It's a shame more didn't choose to challenge themselves. But seriously unless the girl was a top district junior, she had no chance of winning against Mid B grade, let along a Mid A guys.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 04:53 PM
I'm "officially" "computer" rated 2.5 / itn8 player.

Cindy could you take me on?

I'm shorty white guy with overgrown hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeuR25r-D0Q

Prepare to hang up your rackets..

Gee, that's nice of you to offer, really, but I think I will take a pass. I've run low on pepper spray. :)

equinox
01-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Gee, that's nice of you to offer, really, but I think I will take a pass. I've run low on pepper spray. :)

Probably for the best, since i've lost the keys to my pink fluffy handcuffs. :twisted:

Steady Eddy
01-04-2010, 05:40 PM
Probably for the best, since i've lost the keys to my pink fluffy handcuffs. :twisted:Oh, so those were yours? The level of tennis in the video looked solid to me. Funny thing is I see "5.0s" on here who never have a rally longer than 3 shots and the shots aren't even powerful.

raiden031
01-04-2010, 06:32 PM
I'm "officially" "computer" rated 2.5 / itn8 player.

Cindy could you take me on?

I'm shorty white guy with overgrown hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeuR25r-D0Q

Prepare to hang up your rackets..

2.5 tennis is pure ***** and thats is not 2.5 tennis in the video.

OrangePower
01-04-2010, 07:17 PM
2.5 tennis is pure ***** and thats is not 2.5 tennis in the video.

I agree - no way that is 2.5 tennis.

I would however avoid calling 2.5 tennis ***** since no doubt my level (4.5) looks equally ***** to someone who can really play the game... :)

damazing
01-04-2010, 07:43 PM
My experience has been that the biggest difference between men and women in mixed doubles is in the serves. There are more men with powerful/non returnable serves than women.

I've played with women who have great placement of their serve which helps when I poach and put away the returns but no women that I've played with or against have non returnable serves.

One other observation is that the lower level women tend to be very poor at net more so than the lower level men. There are female partners I've had that are good at the net but they are the exception.

boris becker 1
01-04-2010, 08:05 PM
I have said this before but anyway.


I played division 1 college tennis a a few satelite qualifiers. used to practice with a woman pro in the top 25.

If we played on a clay court it would be very close or split sets.


On a grass or fast carpet court I would win easily.

BreakPoint
01-04-2010, 08:51 PM
My experience has been that the biggest difference between men and women in mixed doubles is in the serves. There are more men with powerful/non returnable serves than women.

I've played with women who have great placement of their serve which helps when I poach and put away the returns but no women that I've played with or against have non returnable serves.

One other observation is that the lower level women tend to be very poor at net more so than the lower level men. There are female partners I've had that are good at the net but they are the exception.
I've also noticed through the years that just about all the women I've played with or against in mixed doubles have trouble sprinting forward quickly. I'm not sure if it's due to the difference in their center of balance or leg muscles or whatever. But the easiest way to win points against them is to hit drop shots and drop volleys. :)

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 04:00 AM
My experience has been that the biggest difference between men and women in mixed doubles is in the serves. There are more men with powerful/non returnable serves than women.

I've played with women who have great placement of their serve which helps when I poach and put away the returns but no women that I've played with or against have non returnable serves.

One other observation is that the lower level women tend to be very poor at net more so than the lower level men. There are female partners I've had that are good at the net but they are the exception.

I think lower level men and women are equally poor at net. If there is a difference, the men tend to be weaker for a couple of reasons.

For guys, power rules. The first things a guy wants to learn how to do are bash his FH and bash his serve. When a guy can hit these two shots nice and hard, they figure they are a good player. Volleys? Who needs volleys?

Second, women tend to take more instruction, and so they tend to be more likely to learn some actual volley technique. There are some women with some very pretty volleys out there.

One of the things I had to get used to in mixed is that some male partners will hold their serve and then mentally check out when I am serving. Hey, everyone has something that they don't do very well, and for 3.5 guys it is often their net play.

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 04:05 AM
I've also noticed through the years that just about all the women I've played with or against in mixed doubles have trouble sprinting forward quickly. I'm not sure if it's due to the difference in their center of balance or leg muscles or whatever. But the easiest way to win points against them is to hit drop shots and drop volleys. :)

Yes, this can be a good tactic.

Had a recent 7.0 mixed match. We lost the first set at love in no time, as neither of us could return the guy's wide serve to our BHs, and we made too many stupid errors trying to blast back the woman's weak serve.

We switched sides for the second set and made two tactical changes. My male partner returned every one of the lady's serves as a drop shot, and she didn't reach even one of them. I lobbed her serve over the man's BH so she had to cross and hit a running BH. We won the set and the tiebreak just by moving the two of them around.

Cindy -- who figures the day is coming when she won't be able to reach a drop shot either

raiden031
01-05-2010, 04:27 AM
I think lower level men and women are equally poor at net. If there is a difference, the men tend to be weaker for a couple of reasons.

For guys, power rules. The first things a guy wants to learn how to do are bash his FH and bash his serve. When a guy can hit these two shots nice and hard, they figure they are a good player. Volleys? Who needs volleys?

Second, women tend to take more instruction, and so they tend to be more likely to learn some actual volley technique. There are some women with some very pretty volleys out there.

One of the things I had to get used to in mixed is that some male partners will hold their serve and then mentally check out when I am serving. Hey, everyone has something that they don't do very well, and for 3.5 guys it is often their net play.

I know we've argued this before, but I still think you have it in reverse. I agree that lower-rated women are more likely to have taken lessons, so they might have more sound volley technique. However I observe that they still have lousy footwork and movement and are basically court ornaments at the net. They don't poach well and are only effective if you hit the ball right to them.

3.5 male doubles players on the other hand tend to have terrible baseline games. The only thing they can do well is play at the net, even with less than sound volley technique. Interestingly 3.5 male singles players are the complete opposite, having decent baseline games and horrendous net games.

The way I see it, a 4.0 player is just a 3.5 player who can play both the baseline and the net. Although they/we are still sucky players.

tfm1973
01-05-2010, 04:48 AM
speak for yourself raiden. i happen to be terrible at both net and baseline. i make up for it with super pusher skillz.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 04:52 AM
speak for yourself raiden. i happen to be terrible at both net and baseline. i make up for it with super pusher skillz.

Yeah I mean I think I can play net as good as a 3.5 doubles specialist and I can play baseline as good as a 3.5 singles specialist, so that makes me a 4.0 when its all combined.

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 06:27 AM
I know we've argued this before, but I still think you have it in reverse. I agree that lower-rated women are more likely to have taken lessons, so they might have more sound volley technique. However I observe that they still have lousy footwork and movement and are basically court ornaments at the net. They don't poach well and are only effective if you hit the ball right to them.

3.5 male doubles players on the other hand tend to have terrible baseline games. The only thing they can do well is play at the net, even with less than sound volley technique. Interestingly 3.5 male singles players are the complete opposite, having decent baseline games and horrendous net games.

The way I see it, a 4.0 player is just a 3.5 player who can play both the baseline and the net. Although they/we are still sucky players.

I will admit that my sample size is small. Some of the 3.5 guys I am thinking of were singles players and were challenged at net. But even the 3.5 guys I know who play mostly doubles have real problems with volleys, especially approach volleys.

Keep in mind that having me poach in 7.0 mixed when a 3.5 guys with good groundies is at the baseline is kind of unnecessary. If the woman is rallying against my partner, he will win most of those exchanges without my taking any risks of poaching.

If he is rallying with the other guy, then one of two things is happening. Either my partner is getting the better of the exchanges -- in which case I should play the net conservatively -- or he is losing the exchanges and it is unlikely that my flying across the net to intercept a bullet my partner can't handle from the baseline won't help.

You know, I have a 3.5 friend who just finished her first season at 8.0 mixed. She had a 4.5 partner for one match. He became kind of frustrated with her because she was playing 8.0 mixed the way she would play a ladies match. In other words, she was moving around, poaching some, not crowding the net or camping in the alley. Her 4.5 partner was irritated that her playing the net correctly for ladies tennis was costing them the match because she was making herself too much of a target.

So when you see a female in mixed who appears not to be doing much, that doesn't mean she is a horrible net player. It just means that, under the circumstances, it is best for her to be conservative. The same thing would happen if you took a 3.5 male and had him play 8.5 combo with a 5.0 partner. He might have Mad Net Skillz at his level, but that won't cut it at 8.5 combo.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 06:43 AM
I will admit that my sample size is small. Some of the 3.5 guys I am thinking of were singles players and were challenged at net. But even the 3.5 guys I know who play mostly doubles have real problems with volleys, especially approach volleys.

Keep in mind that having me poach in 7.0 mixed when a 3.5 guys with good groundies is at the baseline is kind of unnecessary. If the woman is rallying against my partner, he will win most of those exchanges without my taking any risks of poaching.

If he is rallying with the other guy, then one of two things is happening. Either my partner is getting the better of the exchanges -- in which case I should play the net conservatively -- or he is losing the exchanges and it is unlikely that my flying across the net to intercept a bullet my partner can't handle from the baseline won't help.

You know, I have a 3.5 friend who just finished her first season at 8.0 mixed. She had a 4.5 partner for one match. He became kind of frustrated with her because she was playing 8.0 mixed the way she would play a ladies match. In other words, she was moving around, poaching some, not crowding the net or camping in the alley. Her 4.5 partner was irritated that her playing the net correctly for ladies tennis was costing them the match because she was making herself too much of a target.

So when you see a female in mixed who appears not to be doing much, that doesn't mean she is a horrible net player. It just means that, under the circumstances, it is best for her to be conservative. The same thing would happen if you took a 3.5 male and had him play 8.5 combo with a 5.0 partner. He might have Mad Net Skillz at his level, but that won't cut it at 8.5 combo.

Sorry don't buy the fact that they have mad net skills but conceal them because they are better off letting their partner grind it out from the baseline. If they had the skills, then it would be beneficial to use them.

My opinion on a 3.5F playing 8.0 mixed is that if they aren't supposed to play their own game, then why even bother playing up at all if you have to just sit in one spot as to not disrupt your partner's rhythm?

precision2b
01-05-2010, 07:50 AM
Gee, that's nice of you to offer, really, but I think I will take a pass. I've run low on pepper spray. :)
LOL!!! That's funny...

2.5 tennis is pure ***** and thats is not 2.5 tennis in the video.
I agree all but the s--t part

I agree - no way that is 2.5 tennis.

I would however avoid calling 2.5 tennis ***** since no doubt my level (4.5) looks equally ***** to someone who can really play the game... :)

well said

Steady Eddy
01-05-2010, 09:40 AM
Ah, here we go again.

Honestly, Cindy, save your breath. They won't and don't get it.

Their egos won't allow it.The "male ego" and all that? Anyway, happy B. Day Topaz. :)

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 03:12 PM
Sorry don't buy the fact that they have mad net skills but conceal them because they are better off letting their partner grind it out from the baseline. If they had the skills, then it would be beneficial to use them.

My opinion on a 3.5F playing 8.0 mixed is that if they aren't supposed to play their own game, then why even bother playing up at all if you have to just sit in one spot as to not disrupt your partner's rhythm?

Consider my case. I play 6.5 combo, 3.5 ladies, 7.5 combo and 7.0 mixed.

In 7.5 combo and 7.0 mixed, my partner is stronger than I am. In 6.5 combo, my partner is weaker. In 3.5, my partner is my level.

Doesn't it make sense that I will take far more risks at net in 6.5 combo than 7.0 mixed? If I do nothing at net in mixed and 7.5 combo, my partner will likely hold. If I do nothing in 6.5 combo, my partner will almost certainly be broken.

Now, that's an exaggeration. I need to try to help my partner hold in all situations. But I have come to the conclusion that you have to play to the situation, and sometimes that means being aggressive and sometimes that means being conservative.

TennisNinja
01-05-2010, 03:40 PM
How about this then? Serena and Venus lost easily to a 200-300 ranked male. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html