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In D Zone
12-03-2009, 09:36 AM
I've always been curious how Federer can hit a good 1hbh using the open stance.

I stumbled across some great clips -how Federer hits the 1hbh using an Open stance.

Here the two slow motion vids....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOyoPZUhUTM&feature=channel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6n4domfyA0&feature=channel


Notice Federer started his 1hbh prep using the open stance, weight is transferred to his left leg. As he swings to make ball contact, he shifts his right leg across to the front (transferring the weight from left leg to the right while in flight). During the follow thru: his left feet lifts and kicks back - providing balance while he is moving forward (body parallel to the net) to finish off his shot. The left foot also provide a good pivot point (giving Federer solid base to turn for the next shot).

Federer uses the same open stance technique when he is returning a serve or when the situation calls for.


Hope this helps!

wilsonplayer
12-03-2009, 10:12 AM
completely disagree that federer uses open stance during rally. maybe when its more of a reflex shot, but if he has time, he will always use a closed stance to hit his backhand. as for those clips, they're returns so it's not an open stance as much as it is a ready position so that he could choose to hit a forehand or backhand.

spacediver
12-03-2009, 10:18 AM
here are a couple threads that discuss the open stance 1hbh:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4068793

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=717

mike53
12-03-2009, 10:59 AM
In the second video, I see both open and closed stance backhands. When I use an open stance for my one hand backhand, too often I end up with the contact point directly in front of my left hip (I'm a righty). With no power to move my arm in the direction of the shot, a weak follow through and a weak shot results. On the plus side, the contact point is right in front of my eyes so I can usually get the sweet spot right on the ball and get some power back from better quality contact. For me, this is more of a block type of shot. The last shot in the second video (closed stance) is the one I like best.

tennis angel
12-03-2009, 11:02 AM
Federer does not use an open stance 1hbh as a rule, it is more an exception to the rule of his elegant closed stance 1hbh. Here's a clip of Fed using closed 1hbh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2zmsPIMXI&feature=related

Clips can be misleading; pick apart a player's game in microsegments and you'll see many things, but not necesarily representative of the player's optimal strokes. These clips and this discussion point out an interesting thing; there is no one way to hit a stroke in every situation. Great players adapt to the moment and do whatever is necessary in response to that sitiuation. Practicing a given stroke mechanic is useful in training the body to respond automatically (what is generally referred to as muscle memory), but it is the player's natural and instinctive feel in response to each present time situation rather than mechanical movement that produces optimal performance.

I like to use the analogy of a dancer who goes on an audition. This dancer has practiced countless hours in the studio perfecting individual ballet steps in isolation, then combining steps in a deliberate pattern (choreography) until he can peform them accurately and smoothly. Once he has grooved in the steps individually and in sequence he can put emotion and feeling into the dance.

He goes to an audition with his music and choroegraphy meticulously rehearsed, sure to get the role. As he steps onto the stage, however, the auditioner states that he has changed his mind and prefers to see the dancer perform to a totally different piece of music, which is not compatible with his rehearsed choreography. If the dancer has limited his conception to mechanical performance of the choreography he will surely be passed over; if he can respond in present time to the "emergency" of dancing spontaneously by feel, his well-practiced steps will combine naturally into a dance of grace and artistry and win him the role.

Tennis is not a ballet of rehearsed, predictable and perfect movements. It is a game of emergencies, which are best confronted by feel and naturality, not mechanics. Federer, perhaps the most gracefully spontaneous tennis player ever, responds masterfully to every situation he encounters in a natural way. He finds the ball so well that he can then feel instinctively what to do, finish the stroke and continue on instantaneously to the next move. The truly amazinbg thing is that watching him play a match IS very much like watching a beautifully choreographed dance!

In D Zone
12-03-2009, 12:02 PM
Totally agree. I phrased my comments wrong.

Fed does used the closed stance on 1hbh. The open stance is only used when he is pressed or did not have time to prep.

spacediver
12-03-2009, 12:51 PM
very nice post tennis angel.

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 01:51 PM
Tennis is not a ballet of rehearsed, predictable and perfect movements. It is a game of emergencies, which are best confronted by feel and naturality, not mechanics. Federer, perhaps the most gracefully spontaneous tennis player ever, responds masterfully to every situation he encounters in a natural way. He finds the ball so well that he can then feel instinctively what to do, finish the stroke and continue on instantaneously to the next move. The truly amazinbg thing is that watching him play a match IS very much like watching a beautifully choreographed dance!

Disagree with this. Of course, there are going to be times that a player will not antiicipate a shot or get caught wrong footed and will have to go on the defense and could be in emergency mode. However, this is hardly the way tennis players should play and approach their game.

Tennis (and other sports) is a game that is rehearsed through practice and should emphasize efficient and effective foot patterns and footspeed to reduce a players risk in getting in defensive positions and to increase a players chnaces to get to balls they couldn't get to before so they have a better chance in keeping their side of the court closed and well managed.

Shot selection also plays a part in helping a player manage the point, keep their court closed, and also needs to be practiced and rehearsed.

Tennis is a game of balance. A player must use their brain to gain cognitive understanding of sound fundamentals and principles and put it to practice to realize it and perfect it. Tennis is a game of mechanics and technique to serve the fundamental foundation for a player to grow, manage, and achieve their own goals and aspirations. Fundamentals in stroke technique, movement, and the mental side of the game are critical for players to grow in the game, experience the fun in the game, and to help them reach their goals.

If players are left to experience alone and feeling you run a high risk allowing those players to develop poor habits that become engrained, taken as what is "natural", and sending a player to their doom for many many years.

When you talk about Federer, you are talking about a player that is maticulous about perfecting his technique, movement, conditioning, and mental strength in his game. You are implying that Federer did nothing other than just show up and it just was in him. WRONG!!!!! Federer and all the other pros have worked painstakingly hard to develop their game through intelligence, design, hardwork, and being a student of all aspects of the game. Nothing was discarded over the other.

Coaches and players that think tennis is going to be absorbed through osmosis is not only wrong but truly misleading.

When coaches and tennis players point to Federer, you are looking at a FINISHED product and not the WORK IN PROGRESS to keep that finished product working well. You are disregarding the MAINTENANCE side of all of this and only looking at what he is able to do on the court.

Federer did not walk on the court with excellent ball control, stroke technique, movement, and court intelligence by simply "feeling" his way there.

The feeling part of the game is developed through understanding, practice, working hard, knowledge, development, endurance, and doing the right things to help you feel what you are supppose to do to involve all the senses of a player.

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 02:02 PM
Federer does not hit an open stance bakchand as his main stance. He also does not only hit a closed stance for his onehander either.

If you want to learn the open stance backhand, you need to look at how the feet move and how the body swings the racquet.

I would also suggest you not using it for groundstrokes but develop it in your return of serve.

No player here has a perfect onehander and many of us have a lot of work to do to get it to a point where we can depend on it.

Therefore, for you developing players, learn how to hit the onehanded backhand fundamentally sound. Work on your movement, your weight transfer, your timing, your ability to hit the ball in your strike zone before you add an open stance.

I have posted some information on the open stance onehander that you should probably review. However, before you do, ask yourself why are you seeking to develop an open stance onehanded backhand? Or why are you curious?

I can bet that you are not happy with your current backhand and you find yourself for the wrong reasons hitting open stance on court.

aimr75
12-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Disagree with this. Of course, there are going to be times that a player will not antiicipate a shot or get caught wrong footed and will have to go on the defense and could be in emergency mode. However, this is hardly the way tennis players should play and approach their game.

Tennis (and other sports) is a game that is rehearsed through practice and should emphasize efficient and effective foot patterns and footspeed to reduce a players risk in getting in defensive positions and to increase a players chnaces to get to balls they couldn't get to before so they have a better chance in keeping their side of the court closed and well managed.

Shot selection also plays a part in helping a player manage the point, keep their court closed, and also needs to be practiced and rehearsed.

Tennis is a game of balance. A player must use their brain to gain cognitive understanding of sound fundamentals and principles and put it to practice to realize it and perfect it. Tennis is a game of mechanics and technique to serve the fundamental foundation for a player to grow, manage, and achieve their own goals and aspirations. Fundamentals in stroke technique, movement, and the mental side of the game are critical for players to grow in the game, experience the fun in the game, and to help them reach their goals.

If players are left to experience alone and feeling you run a high risk allowing those players to develop poor habits that become engrained, taken as what is "natural", and sending a player to their doom for many many years.

When you talk about Federer, you are talking about a player that is maticulous about perfecting his technique, movement, conditioning, and mental strength in his game. You are implying that Federer did nothing other than just show up and it just was in him. WRONG!!!!! Federer and all the other pros have worked painstakingly hard to develop their game through intelligence, design, hardwork, and being a student of all aspects of the game. Nothing was discarded over the other.

Coaches and players that think tennis is going to be absorbed through osmosis is not only wrong but truly misleading.

When coaches and tennis players point to Federer, you are looking at a FINISHED product and not the WORK IN PROGRESS to keep that finished product working well. You are disregarding the MAINTENANCE side of all of this and only looking at what he is able to do on the court.

Federer did not walk on the court with excellent ball control, stroke technique, movement, and court intelligence by simply "feeling" his way there.

The feeling part of the game is developed through understanding, practice, working hard, knowledge, development, endurance, and doing the right things to help you feel what you are supppose to do to involve all the senses of a player.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 02:16 PM
An open stance onehanded backhand should be understood from two perspectives.

HOW TO HIT ONE
There are two segments that a player needs to understand before they begin practicing it.

1. Upper body: The upper body needs to be disciplined to maintain sound onehanded backhand technique in the swing path, shoulder turn, extension, rotation, and followthrough.

2. The lower body stance, foot movement, balance, and effort is a bit different. You need to study how the feet work not only for the preparation and stance, but how they work when and after the player hits the ball.

WHEN TO USE ONE
I would recommend NOT using it for your groundstoke backhand until you developed the one you should develop. However, I am much more flexible in my recommendation for the return of serve. Therefore, if there is any time to work on developing this stroke while you are a developing player, it would be for the return of serve.

MasturB
12-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Fed only hits his topspin backhand on open stance as a block back reaction. Whether this is a low line drive he can't set up for, or a quick return.

THe only other time I've seen him hit it like that is on the run, but that's more desperation if he can't set up completely.

Only times i've ever seen him use an open stance on a slice backhand, would be a similar situation to the above mentioned.

The only way to produce any type of power on an open stance is to scissor kick back into closed on the follow through. Use hip and torso to compensate for not being able to pushoff with your inside foot.

LeeD
12-03-2009, 02:45 PM
For fast service returns, it's hard to close your feet, so openstanced topspin 1HBH works for duffers as bad as me. As long as the serve doesn't go much over 100, I can handle it with topspin and NOT moving my legs.
On a groundie rally, almost NEVER would even consider a topspin 1HBH without first closing the stance..not neutral, but closed.
Shoulder turn is the most important thing we can do.

spacediver
12-03-2009, 03:48 PM
You are implying that Federer did nothing other than just show up and it just was in him. WRONG!!!!! Federer and all the other pros have worked painstakingly hard to develop their game through intelligence, design, hardwork, and being a student of all aspects of the game. Nothing was discarded over the other.

I don't think he implied this. I believe his point in addition to mastering the strokes and their ideal form, it is important to be able to dynamically adapt to the real time demands as best as possible.

5263
12-03-2009, 08:19 PM
Federer does not use an open stance 1hbh as a rule, it is more an exception to the rule of his elegant closed stance 1hbh. Here's a clip of Fed using closed 1hbh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2zmsPIMXI&feature=related

Clips can be misleading; pick apart a player's game in microsegments and you'll see many things, but not necesarily representative of the player's optimal strokes. These clips and this discussion point out an interesting thing; there is no one way to hit a stroke in every situation. Great players adapt to the moment and do whatever is necessary in response to that sitiuation. Practicing a given stroke mechanic is useful in training the body to respond automatically (what is generally referred to as muscle memory), but it is the player's natural and instinctive feel in response to each present time situation rather than mechanical movement that produces optimal performance.

I like to use the analogy of a dancer who goes on an audition. This dancer has practiced countless hours in the studio perfecting individual ballet steps in isolation, then combining steps in a deliberate pattern (choreography) until he can peform them accurately and smoothly. Once he has grooved in the steps individually and in sequence he can put emotion and feeling into the dance.

He goes to an audition with his music and choroegraphy meticulously rehearsed, sure to get the role. As he steps onto the stage, however, the auditioner states that he has changed his mind and prefers to see the dancer perform to a totally different piece of music, which is not compatible with his rehearsed choreography. If the dancer has limited his conception to mechanical performance of the choreography he will surely be passed over; if he can respond in present time to the "emergency" of dancing spontaneously by feel, his well-practiced steps will combine naturally into a dance of grace and artistry and win him the role.

Tennis is not a ballet of rehearsed, predictable and perfect movements. It is a game of emergencies, which are best confronted by feel and naturality, not mechanics. Federer, perhaps the most gracefully spontaneous tennis player ever, responds masterfully to every situation he encounters in a natural way. He finds the ball so well that he can then feel instinctively what to do, finish the stroke and continue on instantaneously to the next move. The truly amazinbg thing is that watching him play a match IS very much like watching a beautifully choreographed dance!

Excellent description of how this plays out with great athletes.

5263
12-03-2009, 08:20 PM
I don't think he implied this. I believe his point in addition to mastering the strokes and their ideal form, it is important to be able to dynamically adapt to the real time demands as best as possible.

Excellent point!

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 08:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

Good one. I know there is more! :)

Bottom-line, MTM is sneaking back in here. Obviously, this is a bogus system that left with its founder after being chalenged that he was selling rather than teaching here.

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 08:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

More evidence to put this nonsense to bed.

Federer tells Murray hard work is key



By Oliver Brown
Published: 12:01AM BST 24 May 2006



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/frenchopen/2337338/Federer-tells-Murray-hard-work-is-key.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From The Times
http://m1.emea.2mdn.net/720796/1x1.gif</IMG> (http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v8/38f9/3/0/%2a/b%3B127171314%3B0-0%3B0%3B13187955%3B4357-143/50%3B22160321/22178211/1%3B%3B~aopt%3D2/1/ca/0%3B~sscs%3D%3fhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk)
September 4, 2009


Hard work behind Roger Federer's easy style

...What sets the leading players apart is their dazzling court coverage. Murray has worked tirelessly at improving his movement, his foot speed, which allows him to execute the shots he wants with a split-second more time.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6820965.ece
-------------------------------------------------
My Sportsman: Roger Federer


...That, over last summer, he worked hard, adjusted his game, and came back to win when the winning came much harder, that he beat Nadal in Spain, then Murray in Cincinnati, then Djokovic in the U.S. Open semifinals, is a testament to character, a sign that real toughness always bubbled beneath the superior gifts.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/magazine/specials/sportsman/2009/11/25/price.sportsman/index.html#ixzz0YhIjPmO1 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/magazine/specials/sportsman/2009/11/25/price.sportsman/index.html#ixzz0YhIjPmO1)
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spacediver
12-03-2009, 09:05 PM
Really? Well, do me a favor, read it again and look for the word "natural". Then do me another favor, read this guys other posts including TeachesTennis posts. Then come talk to me.

I can't speak for his other posts, but I don't see his post in this thread as in any way fitting your characterization.

The whole idea of mastery is so that one's reactions and preparatations are indeed experienced and exectuted as "natural".

You are correct in that there was no specific instruction in his post that actually fleshes out what a natural set of movements or reactions are, but that was not the purpose of his post.

And I completely agree with you: if someone is purporting to teach, and was to go no further than what was presented in his post, then they would absolutely be guilty of hand waving.

His post in this thread, however, was to articulate an abstract point about the relationship between good form, and being able to adapt naturally.

If someone had asked him how to adapt naturally and he posted what he did, then you'd have a point.

If you read the beginning of his post without expecting specific instruction, then you might have a different reaction.

The characterization of tennis as a "game of emergencies" (a google search shows that peter burwash probably coined this phrase) is a provocative one. One the one hand, it could be misunderstood that every stroke is never perfect since form needs to be sacrificed to make the emergency play. On the other hand, it coudl be understood that if you treat each movement as one that requires the utmost of urgency, then you have a better chance of realizing ideal form with each stroke.

Bungalo Bill
12-03-2009, 10:23 PM
I can't speak for his other posts, but I don't see his post in this thread as in any way fitting your characterization.

The whole idea of mastery is so that one's reactions and preparatations are indeed experienced and exectuted as "natural".

Well now you are twisting things to never-never land with your nonsense.

A player comes into a sport like tennis with their natural ability, skill from other expriences and learning, and their general development in coordination to do certain things or adapt to certain things.

When a player such as a kid picks up a racquet their "natural" tendency to hold a racquet and hit a ball with topspin, underspin, or anything else is usually WRONG! Therefore, their natural understanding needs to be unlearned and TRAINED!!!!

Training builds skill and skill utilizes the available talent and developed coordination to propel the students growth in the sport.

The word "natural" is misused in tennis - period.

And please, if you are going to call everything concerning the development of a student "natural" then you really are watering down the term to just suit your needs and your lame argument. I however, use other words to add clarity such as skills, talent, coordination, etc... and the development of these areas through guidance, instruction, direction, criticism, emotion, goal setting, and on and on and on.

Further these experiences and "preparations" are not to be left alone without proper guidance and instruction. Technical knowledge is necessary in order for the body and the brain to execute proper shaping of the body so that it can learn and correct itself by recognizing when they performed the motion or movement incorrectly.

If you want to dumb it down to your definition go right ahead. However, your "position" can not be acheived on a consistent basis with a variety of different people on a consistent basis without proper instruction, guidance, and montioring of the players progress. PERIOD!

You are correct in that there was no specific instruction in his post that actually fleshes out what a natural set of movements or reactions are, but that was not the purpose of his post.

Geee, thanks for telling me that. I thought I was dreaming for awhile and that maybe just maybe I had it wrong. So tell, me, why don't we just form now on tell people to go take their clothes off, jump in an ice pool, and just be free and learn tennis "naturally". They will play like Federer in 2 hours.

And I completely agree with you: if someone is purporting to teach, and was to go no further than what was presented in his post, then they would absolutely be guilty of hand waving.

Please dont agree with me. Because I do not agree with you whatsoever. Cop out coaching is coaching that relies on feelings, emergencies, and natural garbage to think they are helping players play the game.

However, in reality, iof you really are coaching, you are providing direction, guidance, instruction, demonstration, analysis, monitoring, feedback and any other thing you can think of to help develop a player. And many times "natural" is flat oout wrong, inefficient, ineffective, and misleading.

His post in this thread, however, was to articulate an abstract point about the relationship between good form, and being able to adapt naturally.

If someone had asked him how to adapt naturally and he posted what he did, then you'd have a point.

If you read the beginning of his post without expecting specific instruction, then you might have a different reaction.

So are you sitting as the referee? You? Lol

Okay, welll, here goes. I could care less what you think or come up with. Your opinion is your opinion, and mine is mine. Is that okay with you?

The characterization of tennis as a "game of emergencies" (a google search shows that peter burwash probably coined this phrase) is a provocative one. One the one hand, it could be misunderstood that every stroke is never perfect since form needs to be sacrificed to make the emergency play. On the other hand, it coudl be understood that if you treat each movement as one that requires the utmost of urgency, then you have a better chance of realizing ideal form with each stroke.

Characterization? LOL!!! You mean opinion. Well here is what I don't agree with before you jumped in and came to the "rescue".

"Tennis is not a ballet of rehearsed, predictable and perfect movements. It is a game of emergencies, which are best confronted by feel and naturality, not mechanics. Federer, perhaps the most gracefully spontaneous tennis player ever, responds masterfully to every situation he encounters in a natural way."

So because one person said tennis is a game of emergencies it automatically is? Feel the ball was further talked about which is simply MTM BS.

However, let's just talk about this. TENNIS IS NOT A BALLET OF REHEARSED, PREDICTABLE, and PERFECT MOVEMENTS.

First off, nobody in their right mind would say tennis movement should be perfect. However, the pursuit of perfection is absolutely appropriate.

Second, Tennis is not a ballet of rehearsed movements? Very much disagree. Tennis players constantly rehearse movement in their game and many times in a match perform this movement. Further, ball control supports predictable movement in that a tennis player selects a shot to setup another. If a player can do this effectively, their footwork will and should support their movement. In other words, I can predict that on a return of serve I am going to perform a split-step. On an inside-out forehand I will perform a certain footwork pattern.

What you can not do in tennis is say, okay, you need to do these 100 steps to complete this score before we can do anything else. Tennis footwork is made up of mainly short two or three step patterns strung together to move efficiently and effectively. Tennis movement is measured in efficiency and effectivness not like dancing where you evaluate the quality of each step (although you could especially in practice). point

Tennis is not a long score of certain movements that are performed in sequence to some end. I don't move across the court and perform 50 shuffle steps in one direction even though the ball is headed to the other sideline or side of the court.

Tennis is a rehearsed and predictable sport with short-term footwork patterns that are linked together to allow the player to move efficiently and effectively throughout the court. They are short patterns and all of these patterns can be NETWORKED in various ways as the point matures and the players have their way with each other.

And Federer? Responding "naturally"? Federer worked extremely hard to be what he is today. to leave out the fact that he did work hard to move so smoothly and quickly implies many things that players can misinterpret just to steer people towards the MTM mantra which so easily sneaks into these boards.

Natural ability is one thing, skill development is another, and hardwork and determination to master the skills of tennis is paramount. Natural ability is only one part of the formula.

And tennis is a game of emergencies? That is a bunch of BS if you are taking that in whole. At times, yes, a player is playing defensively and it can become critical that player stay in the point. However, this is not where a player trains or wants to be because errors increase dramatically.

spacediver
12-03-2009, 10:40 PM
Please take the following as an attempt to resolve our misunderstanding rather than an attempt to "best" you, or prove your wrong. I am not here to show people up, but rather to engage minds.

There seems to be at least two fundamental points that are causing our misunderstanding.

1) You seemed to interpret tennis angel's post in this thread as one that was intended as tennis instruction.

2) You appear to be intepreting the term "natural" in a very specific manner


With respect to the first point, I tried to be clear in my last response that I don't think angel's post was indeed meant as tennis instruction, but rather an eloquent abstract insight.

As for the second point, I tried to allude to the idea that natural instincts can be developed, guided, and harnessed. For example, someone with a very poor "native" feel for efficient biomechanics does not naturally harness the kinetic chain. If a coach were to guide his body through the motions during a lesson, it would feel strange and unfamiliar - the student would not be able to replicate this motion without guidance.

But over the course of carefully guided training and feedback, the student may develop a feel for good biomechanical efficiency and be able to generate these motions spontaneously. At a more advanced level, this student may be able to spontaneously generate optimal biomechanical movements even in non-ideal circumstances - for example in the case of an off balance shot, or an open stance 1hbh, they may be able to utilize a modified kinetic chain that maximizes power and accuracy given the constraints.


Now nothing I have said here is a substitute for good instruction. For one, I have not outline exactly what the "optimal biomechanical movements" are in each situation. I have not even articulated the meaning of "kinetic chain".

But that does not invalidate the truth value of what I've just said. And it doesn't mean that the information is useless either.

If I were a coach and all I did was speak to my students in these terms, or if I wrote an instructional text or produced a teaching video that only had these insights, then I would be doing my audience an injustice if I claimed that there is nothing more to tennis than this.

But I'm not saying this, and neither (at least in this thread) is tennis angel.

5263
12-06-2009, 05:04 AM
Please take the following as an attempt to resolve our misunderstanding rather than an attempt to "best" you, or prove your wrong. I am not here to show people up, but rather to engage minds.

As for the second point, I tried to allude to the idea that natural instincts can be developed, guided, and harnessed. For example, someone with a very poor "native" feel for efficient biomechanics does not naturally harness the kinetic chain. If a coach were to guide his body through the motions during a lesson, it would feel strange and unfamiliar - the student would not be able to replicate this motion without guidance.

But over the course of carefully guided training and feedback, the student may develop a feel for good biomechanical efficiency and be able to generate these motions spontaneously. At a more advanced level, this student may be able to spontaneously generate optimal biomechanical movements even in non-ideal circumstances - for example in the case of an off balance shot, or an open stance 1hbh, they may be able to utilize a modified kinetic chain that maximizes power and accuracy given the constraints.

But I'm not saying this, and neither (at least in this thread) is tennis angel.

Spacediver, you make some great points in this thread. I've known for a long time that the crazy good athletes like Fed and M Jordan are guys who have trained extensively in the basics. So extensively that they have even learned to discard false data that many think are basics, but are not.
They have learned to lean things out to the max so there is almost nothing wasted, and when faced with an "emergency" on the court, often they can synthesize in an instant what they have learned, and "create" right there in the moment to exhibit the highlights we see on ESPN.

LeeD
12-06-2009, 08:20 AM
OK, I'm blind as a bat, and as dumb, but most of those "openstanced" topspin backhands are hit with both feet in the air, feet closed at impact, shoulders well turned, and return of serve!
As I said, even I can hit topspin backhand returns of serve with feet planted initially. He's in the AIR, so you can say he STARTS his motion openstanced, but doesn't hit the ball openstanced at all.

tennis angel
12-06-2009, 10:05 AM
OK, I'm blind as a bat, and as dumb, but most of those "openstanced" topspin backhands are hit with both feet in the air, feet closed at impact, shoulders well turned, and return of serve!
As I said, even I can hit topspin backhand returns of serve with feet planted initially. He's in the AIR, so you can say he STARTS his motion openstanced, but doesn't hit the ball openstanced at all.

Excellent observation, Lee!

ttbrowne
12-06-2009, 10:23 AM
These are all service returns. Different set up when you have limited time.

Bungalo Bill
12-06-2009, 08:24 PM
Geee, guys it isn't hard to break down the open stance onehander!!!!!

My first post indicated and gave clues as to what is happening.

LOWER BODY AND UPPER BODY.

The feet do not take the same track as a normal onehanded backhand. You are to rise and many times perform a scissor kick (for lack of a better phrase), and the upper body follows the traditional onehanded backhand.

This is a teachable stroke. It is not forbidden to learn how to hit this stroke.

I recommend you do it for return of serves just like it is demonstrated 99 percent of the time unless you are watching JAmes Blake who does it more often.

However, all players should learn the classic backhand before moving into this unless it is for the return of serve. However, for the return of serve, I would hope a onehander has mastered or is near mastering blocking, imrpoving their conditioning and footwork.

For return of serves, it is a foot/eye coodinated stroke.

Mahboob Khan
12-06-2009, 10:02 PM
Well I have closely watched Federer's one handed BH.

Generally, he uses square stance: right foot at 12, left at 6 o'clock positions. Maybe 95% if he has the time he uses square stance. Yes, in emergency situations, he uses open stance in which case he turns his upper body and plays the ball.

In 1-handed BH since the hitting shoulder is in front, it is not right for the non-hitting shoulder to come level with the hitting shoulder and that's speaks for the left foot also. Watch his left arm and his right arm, they counteract/move against each other.

In order to hit 1-handed BH with open stance you need strong hitting arm and good balance.

Mahboob Khan

GuyClinch
12-07-2009, 11:38 AM
I think many pros will hit open stanced OHBH for the return of serve. It's not really unique to Federer. Almost any pro has to learn that shot if they use a OHBH otherwise it can take too long to set up a neutral stance OHBH on the return of serve. You rarely see it used elsewhere though..

LeeD
12-07-2009, 02:12 PM
Not only pros, but 4.0's ........

spacediver
12-07-2009, 09:38 PM
I dont need to defend "challenges", especially from you. You just told me you weren't challenging and now you are saying you were? lol

where did I say I wasn't challenging you? Just about every single one of my posts here has explicitly challenged you.


Tennis is planned, practiced, and the information learned is used in matches. Rehearsal takes place all the time. You rehearsh the steps you use in a match. Split-steps, shuffle steps, gravity steps, step arounds, recovery steps and on and on and on!!!

It is absolute nonsense to think otherwise.

agreed, and nothing I or tennis angel wrote implied otherwise.



Tennis players learn the sport of tennis through skill developement. Often skill development matures coordination and skill in a player. Which means what is natural to a player, his moves, his strokes, the way he prepares, may be made UNNATURAL until he stops doing what is natural and makes what is unnatural natural.

again, nothing I said implies otherwise. I suggest you read my posts carefully, else we will get nowhere.

for example, re-read this:

For example, someone with a very poor "native" feel for efficient biomechanics does not naturally harness the kinetic chain. If a coach were to guide his body through the motions during a lesson, it would feel strange and unfamiliar - the student would not be able to replicate this motion without guidance.

But over the course of carefully guided training and feedback, the student may develop a feel for good biomechanical efficiency and be able to generate these motions spontaneously. At a more advanced level, this student may be able to spontaneously generate optimal biomechanical movements even in non-ideal circumstances - for example in the case of an off balance shot, or an open stance 1hbh, they may be able to utilize a modified kinetic chain that maximizes power and accuracy given the constraints.

What is wrong with my statement above?

Nobody here is claiming that "natural" = good.

The claim is the converse:

that which is practiced, and good, should feel natural when mastered.

There's a subtle difference between the above two propositions. Perhaps if you study them with a cooler head, you'll understand that we are perhaps on the same wavelength.

Here's a syllogism to help:

all healthy foods taste good

does not entail that:

all tasty foods are healthy.

BullDogTennis
12-08-2009, 06:17 AM
i don't see how yall are reffering to this as a "closed stance 1hbh" when he makes contact, he is fully closed.

Blake0
12-08-2009, 04:12 PM
Heres a open stanced backhand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKeiF93Ek_4
From james blake's return.

Heres a federer semi-open backhand..(the 4th backhand)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAQNR1bm7Y

Basically you can see that they hit both hit it open stanced because they didnt have enough time to readjust and hit a normal, closed stance 1hbh. BB basically explained when you should hit it so no need to go into further detail.