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lordmanji
12-03-2009, 07:16 PM
i tried the automatic computer appeal which was denied then i emailed league coordinators. waiting to hear back.

Cindysphinx
12-03-2009, 08:37 PM
Dude. You're gonna have to play 3.5.

Really, it will be OK.

SChamp
12-03-2009, 09:02 PM
i tried the automatic computer appeal which was denied then i emailed league coordinators. waiting to hear back.

I haven't appealed, I wanted to get bumped up, but I know 2 people that have appealed and been granted.

10sguy
12-03-2009, 09:41 PM
I haven't appealed, I wanted to get bumped up, but I know 2 people that have appealed and been granted.

Those whose appeals were allowed were most likely players who had fewer than five matches involving computer rated players in the 2009 rating year.

amarone
12-04-2009, 05:29 AM
Those whose appeals were allowed were most likely players who had fewer than five matches involving computer rated players in the 2009 rating year. Fewer than six, I believe.

catfish
12-04-2009, 05:40 AM
i tried the automatic computer appeal which was denied then i emailed league coordinators. waiting to hear back.

Coordinators can't do anything regarding an appeal. If your auto appeal is denied, the only other type of appeal is medical. And those have to go through a Sectional Committee and then a National Committee. I'm not sure what you're expecting your coordinator to do. :confused:

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 05:40 AM
My appeal was swiftly denied, and I just played 3 matches, all straight set losses. But careful about stating facts - some people on the forum will label you as a "whiner." ;-)

Lakers4Life
12-04-2009, 06:52 AM
One guy I know is a true 2.5 got bumped up. He's never won a match, and the most game points won were 2. Looks like the old 3.0 league will now be a 3.5. Forget the numbers, it should just be Pushers league and Non-Pushers (PACE) league.

raiden031
12-04-2009, 06:55 AM
Lormanji,

Here is a gift from me to you.

http://www.tennisawards.com/DSN/wwwtennisawardscom/Commerce/productimages/tmb1_000731.jpg

Jim A
12-04-2009, 07:02 AM
I would like to see no appeals for the 1st year after the bump, then if you have a case to move down its apparent.

I have no idea what a true "2.5" looks like, most of the people who self-rated at 2.5 around here were moved to 3.5 since they played and won at times at 3.0 in this district

JoelDali
12-04-2009, 07:55 AM
I was at the Billie Jean King Center last night and bumped into Billie Jean in the pro-shop and asked her about the ratings bump, and she said the algorithm in the ratings math was massaged to "flush out all the ringers from 4.0 teams for an equal distribution of year end pen deployment..."

goober
12-04-2009, 08:01 AM
I was at the Billie Jean King Center last night and bumped into Billie Jean in the pro-shop and asked her about the ratings bump, and she said the algorithm in the ratings math was massaged to "flush out all the ringers from 4.0 teams for an equal distribution of year end pen deployment..."

Did you ask her about her post count?

raiden031
12-04-2009, 08:01 AM
I was at the Billie Jean King Center last night and bumped into Billie Jean in the pro-shop and asked her about the ratings bump, and she said the algorithm in the ratings math was massaged to "flush out all the ringers from 4.0 teams for an equal distribution of year end pen deployment..."

I think if they just gave everyone a USTA gold-plated pen every year just for participating in leagues, then all of these problems would be solved.

JoelDali
12-04-2009, 08:02 AM
Did you ask her about her post count?

She was busy stringing racquets so I only posed the bump query.

She looks older in person than in the silly Geico commercial.

JoelDali
12-04-2009, 08:08 AM
I think if they just gave everyone a USTA gold-plated pen every year just for participating in leagues, then all of these problems would be solved.

People just want recognition for their *****ous tennis games.

People want to play for a crowd, and display their suckiness and pretend that they're really good.

I know the 4.0 Long Island guys are getting tons of chix after winning Nationals this year but these guys were hot even before they scored the pens...but thats not what most folks are after. Chix only bring temporary happiness from *****ous 4.0 tennis games.

People do want a pen.

People want a trophy.

People want recognition from their peers as USTA league winners.

They want the shirts, they want dignity.

Me, I just wanna rock.

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/8/1/7/8178b095ab68d11169a57009197325c5.jpg

Cindysphinx
12-04-2009, 08:15 AM
I don't want a pen. Sheez.

I want a hand towel. Hand towel's rock. You give me the chance to pick a custom embroidered hand towel in the color of my choice and I will abandon all of my values and core beliefs.

Can my towel be purple? Please?

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 09:04 AM
^^^We whiners call them cryin' towels, and make mine pink. ;-)

LafayetteHitter
12-04-2009, 09:18 AM
I think if they just gave everyone a USTA gold-plated pen every year just for participating in leagues, then all of these problems would be solved.

I think a paperweight would be more appropriate.

http://www.justglass-online.com/wp-content/uploads/paperweight1.jpg

Topaz
12-04-2009, 09:18 AM
Xisbum, I wouldn't call them a whiner unless I knew why they were appealing down.

If they are do it to sandbag, and then complain when they find out they are actually going to have to suck it up at play at the correct level, then yes...I call that whining.

If it is a medical appeal...no, I do not call that whining.

Not sure why anyone is bothering with any type of appeal other than medical anyway...it has been pretty well covered that the USTA isn't granted appeals easily like it did in the past. Another move in the right direction if you ask me.

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 09:27 AM
Xisbum, I wouldn't call them a whiner unless I knew why they were appealing down.

If they are do it to sandbag, and then complain when they find out they are actually going to have to suck it up at play at the correct level, then yes...I call that whining.

If it is a medical appeal...no, I do not call that whining.

Not sure why anyone is bothering with any type of appeal other than medical anyway...it has been pretty well covered that the USTA isn't granted appeals easily like it did in the past. Another move in the right direction if you ask me.

I'm the only whiner I know, and I would never call anyone but myself a whiner. I did appeal because anyone who has played me or watched me play knows that I am nowhere near 4.0, whatever the USTA computer says.

And I think many of us are appealing because this is still the US of A, where we have the right to do such useless things. :)

Cindysphinx
12-04-2009, 10:30 AM
^False.

I have seen you play, and you can hang with 4.0 guys. I would partner with you any day. We would lose in mixed on account of how I suck, but that wouldn't be a reflection on you. :)

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 11:31 AM
If it is a medical appeal...no, I do not call that whining.

Not sure why anyone is bothering with any type of appeal other than medical anyway...it has been pretty well covered that the USTA isn't granted appeals easily like it did in the past. Another move in the right direction if you ask me.

Actually medical appeals were seriously misused in the past as well.

I was looking those up though for this year, they've gotten a LOT stricter on those. (you would have to be seriously injured to get a medical appeal now, where in the past I saw one guy get one just for being "old")

Topaz
12-04-2009, 12:47 PM
Xisbum, wouldn't you have grounds for a medical appeal? On account of the knee?

Topaz
12-04-2009, 12:48 PM
Actually medical appeals were seriously misused in the past as well.

I was looking those up though for this year, they've gotten a LOT stricter on those. (you would have to be seriously injured to get a medical appeal now, where in the past I saw one guy get one just for being "old")

I wouldn't doubt it, but I also know some cases where it was done for 'just' reasons (like having a hysterectomy in the off season!). I think it still needs to be a viable option for those who *need* it.

In the end, for those who do it for the wrong reasons...I think the computer will always catch up to them eventually.

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 01:12 PM
Xisbum, wouldn't you have grounds for a medical appeal? On account of the knee?

Nope, not until they actually slice into it, take out the bad parts and put in new, improved versions. I tried already, and they said no.

^False.

I have seen you play, and you can hang with 4.0 guys. I would partner with you any day. We would lose in mixed on account of how I suck, but that wouldn't be a reflection on you. :)

You are just too kind, Cindy. I've been a 4.0 before, when I was in Memphis, and I could hang with about half of them then - about 20 years and 40 pounds ago. Now, oy vey. Don't think so. But I would love to partner with you any time. We might surprise some people - including you. :)

BTW, I never, ever go back to the baseline in dubs, mixed or otherwise. The harder the other team hits it, the more I say "Bring it, dude (or babe, as the case may be), bring it." ;-)

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 01:26 PM
Nope, not until they actually slice into it, take out the bad parts and put in new, improved versions. I tried already, and they said no.


Yep, and in case you felt like you were dissed by that, you can thank all of the people who just had one time knee or other ailments that constantly got appeals and went on to win almost all of their matches.

Or the people with USPTA certifications who would play 4.5, get some sort of injury and then want a 3.0 rating magically and then sit in 3.0 for years. I remember one of those around here. Sure the guy's mobility wasnt the same but he was still at least a 4.0 doubles player, he had all the strokes and he overwelmed everyone he played.

(it's sort of the drop all the way to the bottom when these people got their medical appeals sometimes)

Here's a great explanation of their new rational:

Very few medical appeals should be granted, as it is usually better to let the computer determine the
NTRP Skill Level based on actual match play. Rationale:
. If the illness or injury is not permanently disabling, an appeal cannot be granted even if treatment,
recovery and/or rehabilitation may take a year or longer.
. Individuals respond to illnesses and/or injuries in different ways so it is hard to predict
the impact on their skill level.
. Many illnesses, such as osteoarthritis, are chronic, progressive, permanent conditions.
However, the rate of progression of the illness, resulting symptoms and degree of
impairment, as well as reaction to medication and treatment, varies in different people.
. Most individuals actually play better after knee, hip and shoulder surgery due to
decrease in pain and possible increase in mobility from their pre-operative status.
. Many individuals who have heart disease, cancer, etc., if medically released to play
tennis, will probably be able to play at their previous skill level.
. If medically released to play tennis, potential pain, shortness of breath and risk of
injury should not be factors in determining NTRP skill level, as these could occur no
matter what NTRP level playing.
. Endurance issues may occur at any skill level and vary from individual to individual. More
energy may be exerted at the lower skill levels than the higher skill levels depending on the
player’s style of play, court position and placement of the ball. Therefore, the amount of
energy exerted while playing tennis varies in individuals and cannot be accurately predicted.

If you dont want to read all of that, the jist of it is, they'd rather just let you play it out and have the computer decide your fate, then guess and give you an appeal. (unless it's something that's permanent)

JavierLW
12-04-2009, 01:32 PM
In the end, for those who do it for the wrong reasons...I think the computer will always catch up to them eventually.

It's funny because that's what they told us in 2003 when they started the DNTRP and self rating system. "The computer will take care of it!"

Then when the computer did take care of it, they started this silly auto-appeal system because they were afraid the computer was moving way too many people up. (and they got tired of personally managing appeals and having coordinators use their own judgement which in some cases lead to them just giving everyone an appeal)

Now they had to manually go in and readjust the ratings anyway because the computer didnt take care of it. (maybe it would of if they would of let it a long time ago rather then add the auto-appeal feature....)

ChipNCharge
12-04-2009, 01:38 PM
If you dont want to read all of that, the jist of it is, they'd rather just let you play it out and have the computer decide your fate, then guess and give you an appeal.

I agree. If you're hurt, you shouldn't be playing. If you're hurt, but not hurt enough to keep you from playing, you should be playing at your new/correct level. If you lose at your new level due to a bum knee from a recent bicycle accident or whatever, then you'll get bumped back down anyway. There's no reason for medical appeals.

LafayetteHitter
12-04-2009, 02:47 PM
Strap them on and step up! If you lose at a higher rating level, so be it.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/563377975_6eca8d6e16.jpg

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 03:27 PM
Strap them on and step up! If you lose at a higher rating level, so be it.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/563377975_6eca8d6e16.jpg

Just my knee is troublesome; every other part is in good working order, thank you. :)

Cindysphinx
12-04-2009, 03:35 PM
Just my knee is troublesome; every other part is in good working order, thank you. :)

How is the knee, if you don't mind my asking? Is it going to hold up for 2010?

Xisbum
12-04-2009, 04:23 PM
How is the knee, if you don't mind my asking? Is it going to hold up for 2010?

Since I got the last injection in June, no major problems or flareups (knock wood). The doc said I could get those injections every 6 months, and the last one seems to be lasting longer than that. If they don't help or stop helping, he's ready to talk replacement. I'm willing to go that route, but UGH, it's not pleasant to think about it. :shock:

I'm surprised the knee has held up so well, especially since I've been unable to drop much weight, for one reason or another. Before the injection, flareups were hitting me every 3 months or so. I wasn't able to play on any team because I wasn't dependable enough. But I got in a lot of playing time with my TWMAC buddies - including you. :)

I'm working on the weight thingie, by the way. Bought a new pair of ASICS running shoes today and plan to use them on the mall when we move to our new office building next week. I'll start with fast walking and try to work up to jogging, then running. Wish me luck. :)

Lakers4Life
12-04-2009, 04:57 PM
I would like to see no appeals for the 1st year after the bump, then if you have a case to move down its apparent.

I have no idea what a true "2.5" looks like, most of the people who self-rated at 2.5 around here were moved to 3.5 since they played and won at times at 3.0 in this district

2.5s look like they should not be on a tennis court. No form, usually pushes the ball and dink serves. Guys you can easy score a Golden Set on. There is a group of 60+ yr old guys that go to the Senior sectionals on a regular basis. Most of them got pushed up to 3.5.

Looks like the 3.0 league will now be a 3.5 and the old 3.0 league will be the pushers league. For most players, they just moved up half a level, same group just a different league. Too many players were hanging around the 3.0 level longer than they should be.

innoVAShaun
12-04-2009, 10:34 PM
Actually medical appeals were seriously misused in the past as well.

I was looking those up though for this year, they've gotten a LOT stricter on those. (you would have to be seriously injured to get a medical appeal now, where in the past I saw one guy get one just for being "old")

Hmm... I do wonder if all the ex-college players that have had torn ACL reconstructive surgery can still medically appeal to 3.5 or 4.0.

lordmanji
12-04-2009, 10:42 PM
2.5s look like they should not be on a tennis court. No form, usually pushes the ball and dink serves. Guys you can easy score a Golden Set on. There is a group of 60+ yr old guys that go to the Senior sectionals on a regular basis. Most of them got pushed up to 3.5.

Looks like the 3.0 league will now be a 3.5 and the old 3.0 league will be the pushers league. For most players, they just moved up half a level, same group just a different league. Too many players were hanging around the 3.0 level longer than they should be.

no, most of the guys i played that are also getting bumped to 3.5 are definitely pushers and very old ones at that. they are so gonna get killed by the decent 3.5s.

i guess i should state the reasons why i want to remain a 3.0 since you guys have no clue why and are ******* me off guessing the worst.

- my former 3.0 spring league captain has also been promoted to 3.5 and i HATE playing for him. he plays the same six-seven guys over and over no matter that there's 15 guys on the roster. in spring league, half the guys he played got dqed cuz they were sandbaggers, so he chose the 2nd best guys (i was one of them and won all my matches) but still did not let the 5 or so other guys play even when we were last place in the league. i didnt play the last match because i felt sorry for the remaining guys who didn't play and even when he had the chance to play these guys who either hadn't played all season or only played one match, he chose another guy who had 3 matches or so under his belt. so if im promoted to 3.5, he will very likely be the captain.

- i like my 3.0 teammates. most of them didnt get promoted. the ones that did started out as 2.5 so they're gonna remain 3.0. i also liked the team vibe. relaxed, playing for fun thanks to our doubles captain. unlike the spring captain, he plays everyone and emphasizes doing your best while having fun.

- despite being promoted to 3.5, i know my game is still at a 3.0 level. i have some kinks in my game that weigh me down to 3.0 and 3.5 is gonna be more competitive so there will be more pressure to win by whatever means and form necessary. i couldve used another year to work on my game to become an actual 3.5 instead of being swept up in the new wave of 3.5 rating changes. if you dont count the dqs, i had a 2-6 record this season which speaks volumes about where im at. and my serve is faulty and forehand i struggle mightily to be consistent.

Lakers4Life
12-05-2009, 03:24 AM
no, most of the guys i played that are also getting bumped to 3.5 are definitely pushers and very old ones at that. they are so gonna get killed by the decent 3.5s.

i guess i should state the reasons why i want to remain a 3.0 since you guys have no clue why and are ******* me off guessing the worst.

- my former 3.0 spring league captain has also been promoted to 3.5 and i HATE playing for him. he plays the same six-seven guys over and over no matter that there's 15 guys on the roster. in spring league, half the guys he played got dqed cuz they were sandbaggers, so he chose the 2nd best guys (i was one of them and won all my matches) but still did not let the 5 or so other guys play even when we were last place in the league. i didnt play the last match because i felt sorry for the remaining guys who didn't play and even when he had the chance to play these guys who either hadn't played all season or only played one match, he chose another guy who had 3 matches or so under his belt. so if im promoted to 3.5, he will very likely be the captain.

- i like my 3.0 teammates. most of them didnt get promoted. the ones that did started out as 2.5 so they're gonna remain 3.0. i also liked the team vibe. relaxed, playing for fun thanks to our doubles captain. unlike the spring captain, he plays everyone and emphasizes doing your best while having fun.

- despite being promoted to 3.5, i know my game is still at a 3.0 level. i have some kinks in my game that weigh me down to 3.0 and 3.5 is gonna be more competitive so there will be more pressure to win by whatever means and form necessary. i couldve used another year to work on my game to become an actual 3.5 instead of being swept up in the new wave of 3.5 rating changes. if you dont count the dqs, i had a 2-6 record this season which speaks volumes about where im at. and my serve is faulty and forehand i struggle mightily to be consistent.

You can always form your own team, or assume the captain position. There should be a refund of USTA leauge fees if you don't get to play. Being a 3.5 means you are below 3.49~ and above 3.00.

Some people think getting bumped up would be like throwing a lamb in a lion's den. Well guess what? Most of the 3.5s moved up to 4.0, and all your team mates that got moved up to 3.5 are still there with you. I like to look at it as a challenge. "What makes us weak, makes us stronger!" I for one am glad I got pushed up.

My former team captain (did not get bumped up), is an old retiree. Thank GAWD! He could not stack a team to save is life. Sure the captains play thier stacking games where the #1 team plays the opponents #2 or #3 team. It's BS if you ask me, but if you play a team enough times you know by looking by who shows up, what you'll probably be facing.

I've been so frustrated playing against someone below my level of play, I've been looking to go to another team. I hated the fact that, I, being a stronger doubles player, had to carry a weaker player. Most of the time I'm dodging weak sitters given by my partner to my opponents. If I'm going to lose a match, I'd rather lose to a better player/team, than blame my partner. Maybe it's my S&V mentality, but I'm alway looking for weaknesses in my opponents. I'm always looking for a "winner" or make my opponents go on the defense.

For those who did not get bumped up; good for you, good luck in your new fiefdom. Enjoy it while it lasts. Anyone else who feels they are not ready for the next level, Strap on a pair and MAN UP!

Topaz
12-05-2009, 04:08 AM
- my former 3.0 spring league captain has also been promoted to 3.5 and i HATE playing for him.

You don't have to play for him. Look for another team.

- i like my 3.0 teammates. most of them didnt get promoted. the ones that did started out as 2.5 so they're gonna remain 3.0. i also liked the team vibe. relaxed, playing for fun thanks to our doubles captain. unlike the spring captain, he plays everyone and emphasizes doing your best while having fun.

Maybe you can team up with them in combo league.

- despite being promoted to 3.5, i know my game is still at a 3.0 level. i have some kinks in my game that weigh me down to 3.0 and 3.5 is gonna be more competitive so there will be more pressure to win by whatever means and form necessary. i couldve used another year to work on my game to become an actual 3.5 instead of being swept up in the new wave of 3.5 rating changes. if you dont count the dqs, i had a 2-6 record this season which speaks volumes about where im at. and my serve is faulty and forehand i struggle mightily to be consistent.

Your win/loss record doesn't count. What counts is who you played, your respective NTRPs, and the score. You showed yourself competitive at a 3.5 level so you were moved to the 3.5 level. Keep working at your game anyway. The thing that got you moved were your results.

Xisbum
12-05-2009, 05:35 AM
Strap them on and step up!

Stap on a pair and MAN UP!

I wouldn't doubt it, but I also know some cases where it was done for 'just' reasons (like having a hysterectomy in the off season!).
If my learned "friends" above are correct in their astute observations and sage advice, perhaps I should use your example as a medical appeal. :)

ttbrowne
12-05-2009, 07:47 AM
Injuries: Some guys I play in doubles at 4.0 are an upper 4.0 when they can get to the ball. When you can take advantage of their immobility, they're more like 3.0.
BUT the trick for me, at 3.5, is keeping the ball away from a very smart, upper 4.0 player.
So I say to hell with the medical appeal.

lordmanji
12-05-2009, 08:31 AM
You don't have to play for him. Look for another team.



Maybe you can team up with them in combo league.



Your win/loss record doesn't count. What counts is who you played, your respective NTRPs, and the score. You showed yourself competitive at a 3.5 level so you were moved to the 3.5 level. Keep working at your game anyway. The thing that got you moved were your results.

ive been on that team for two years, know most of the players and they are the closest to where i live. there's another team around my area but i have to join their local club in order to practice with them which is not financially possible. the next closet would mean a 30-40 minute commute for practice so unfortunately i do not have other options. actually, about only 1/5 or 1/6 of 3.5s have went on to 4.0 after a quick scan of the teams so its still mostly a 3.5 league.

Lakers4Life
12-05-2009, 10:48 AM
ive been on that team for two years, know most of the players and they are the closest to where i live. there's another team around my area but i have to join their local club in order to practice with them which is not financially possible. the next closet would mean a 30-40 minute commute for practice so unfortunately i do not have other options. actually, about only 1/5 or 1/6 of 3.5s have went on to 4.0 after a quick scan of the teams so its still mostly a 3.5 league.

Other guys in my group have joined other teams, because of the lack of competition. Look in MeetUp.com, there might be a group there close to you. That's where I've found a perspective team I might join, on the off chance my OLD(2) captain decides to play up, coz there is no one to fill the old team.

I checked out my league and about 80% of the men got bumped. Only 25% of the women's league got moved up. Still does not make sense, since most of the women that got moved up never won a match. Same goes for half of the men in the league. There must be some method to the madness.

innoVAShaun
12-07-2009, 08:07 AM
A friend of mine that I play with on the weekends was able to successfully appeal his rating from 4.5 to 4.0. It now has an "A" next to his rating.