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Ripper014
12-04-2009, 09:50 AM
Sorry I don't know where to put this thread... but please move me if there is a better place for it.

The last few weeks I have been a little nostalgic... I have been surfing the "BAY" and buying a few rackets... then regripping and restringing them. I have been out playing with my regular group... mostly men at between 3.5 - 4.5 level. For the most part playing doubles... and winning. Well yesterday I played a little singles... with a new T-3000 (60 sq/in?) I had just obtained... a 4-1/2 medium... (yep a medium), I put quite a bit of lead tape on my rackets but this thing weighed a ton, but still very playable. My first impression was it surprised me how flexible the racket was... it has been a long time since I could actually feel a racket flex, even with the wood frame I have been using I did not feel the flex.

Any how... the reason for my post was how it affected my tennis game... there was a drastic drop off on my power and spin... my serve was affected by I could still hit an effect serve... ample power. What was interesting was how it changed how I had to play... it became much more difficult to hit a winner off the first the first strike. It reminded me of years past, where I had to set up each point... moving my opponent around until I created an opening... we could argue til the end of time... but I could not help but think this is the way tennis should be played...

Any thoughts...???

dozu
12-04-2009, 10:25 AM
any thoughts?

no. no thoughts whatsoever.

papa
12-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Well, you can't un-ring the bell. The new racquets are here to stay and they will still evolve depending on the rule changes.

How about clothing? We went from looking like we were all wearing jockey shorts to looking just like jockeys. How the heck to they even make these shirts and shorts anymore? Does somebody actually sew these things together? I don't know about everyone else but my wife is totally challenged by just threading a needle. I couldn't help notice the other day at Bollettiere that most of the shirts are more complicated than the national flags of participating countries - mercy.

Oh sorry, you were talking about racquets. I thought most of the old ones were hanging on pro-shop walls.

Mick
12-04-2009, 12:45 PM
i think you have to watch the old matches to see how the pros used to play with the old racquets. you cannot use today's strokes to hit with the old racquets and have good results.

i sometimes play with a t-3000. to me, it is pretty powerful compared to the wood racquets. to be successful with an old racquet you have to forget that you are playing with an old racquet and concentrate on how to hit the ball properly and this goes back to my initial point.

papa
12-04-2009, 01:36 PM
i think you have to watch the old matches to see how the pros used to play with the old racquets. you cannot use today's strokes to hit with the old racquets and have good results.

i sometimes play with a t-3000. to me, it is pretty powerful compared to the wood racquets. to be successful with an old racquet you have to forget that you are playing with an old racquet and concentrate on how to hit the ball properly and this goes back to my initial point.

Mick, where can you see these matches? I know tennis channel does some of that stuff but my wife was just asking me this morning and I honestly didn't know.

Mick
12-04-2009, 01:49 PM
Mick, where can you see these matches? I know tennis channel does some of that stuff but my wife was just asking me this morning and I honestly didn't know.

you can watch some of the clips on youtube.com

before the start of the 2009 US Open, ESPN classic showed a marathon special of these old matches.

After you have seen how the pros played with the older racquets then you'll know the limitations. for instance, players in the old days would slice the ball when it came to their (one handed) backhand. They did not (could not) hit it back with top spin.

the serve with a wood racquet was pretty weak even at the pro level (i watched the 1979 us open final between chris evert and tracy austin) sure they are women but i don't think most male amateurs could serve nearly as well as they did and their serves were really weak. So, expect your serve to be a lot weaker than those from evert's and austin's. :)

check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdlKLoXJyy8

you may say it's so slow but that's the best you can expect to produce with the old racquets.
you cannot use a wood racquet and expect to play like roger federer or serena williams

LeeD
12-04-2009, 02:16 PM
You picked the WORST possible '70's racket to play with. Only Connors could control all that flexyflyer shotgunning.
I played with ProStaff's, only ONE string job per racket.
Then I switched to HeadPros for a year, then onward to YonexOPSGreens, which served FASTER than most of today's racket. Why you'd ask, and I'll tell you.
OPS was stiff aluminum, string with blue something around 63 lbs., the sweetspot was much higher up than modern rackets, so MORE LEVERAGE on solid serves. No air drag compared to new graphite rackets, plus longer leverage arm = faster serves.
Not saying more topspin. Just faster flat serves.
If you play with a HeadMaster, Pro, Yonnex Greens and Golds, you'd be much better off than you'd ever be with T-2 or 3's.........

LuckyR
12-04-2009, 02:32 PM
Sorry I don't know where to put this thread... but please move me if there is a better place for it.

The last few weeks I have been a little nostalgic... I have been surfing the "BAY" and buying a few rackets... then regripping and restringing them. I have been out playing with my regular group... mostly men at between 3.5 - 4.5 level. For the most part playing doubles... and winning. Well yesterday I played a little singles... with a new T-3000 (60 sq/in?) I had just obtained... a 4-1/2 medium... (yep a medium), I put quite a bit of lead tape on my rackets but this thing weighed a ton, but still very playable. My first impression was it surprised me how flexible the racket was... it has been a long time since I could actually feel a racket flex, even with the wood frame I have been using I did not feel the flex.

Any how... the reason for my post was how it affected my tennis game... there was a drastic drop off on my power and spin... my serve was affected by I could still hit an effect serve... ample power. What was interesting was how it changed how I had to play... it became much more difficult to hit a winner off the first the first strike. It reminded me of years past, where I had to set up each point... moving my opponent around until I created an opening... we could argue til the end of time... but I could not help but think this is the way tennis should be played...

Any thoughts...???


Thoughts? Yeah, congratulations on finding a stringer who knew how to string a T-3000.

Mick
12-04-2009, 02:40 PM
Thoughts? Yeah, congratulations on finding a stringer who knew how to string a T-3000.

last year i both two brand new t-3000 from the auction site.
i brought them to the local pro shop for a string job.

the string jobs were $20 more than the cost of the racquets and the stringer didn't even want to do it :shock:

Ripper014
12-04-2009, 02:54 PM
You picked the WORST possible '70's racket to play with. Only Connors could control all that flexyflyer shotgunning.
I played with ProStaff's, only ONE string job per racket.
Then I switched to HeadPros for a year, then onward to YonexOPSGreens, which served FASTER than most of today's racket. Why you'd ask, and I'll tell you.
OPS was stiff aluminum, string with blue something around 63 lbs., the sweetspot was much higher up than modern rackets, so MORE LEVERAGE on solid serves. No air drag compared to new graphite rackets, plus longer leverage arm = faster serves.
Not saying more topspin. Just faster flat serves.
If you play with a HeadMaster, Pro, Yonnex Greens and Golds, you'd be much better off than you'd ever be with T-2 or 3's.........

The Yonex OPS was too stiff for me at the time... I hated it. I did use the Head Pro for many years before finally switching to the Head Arthur Ashe Comp 2 then the PS 6.0 85... could that string be Blue Star... one of the original multifibres..? or Super Blue... a cheap nylon popular back then.

I used the T-3000 in some men's doubles last night against a former top junior (he is in his early 20's now) and I played ok... except for my return of serve... I struggled a lot with it. But being the first time I have used a T series racket in 30 years... I figure I did ok.

I do disagree though that you cannot generate power with the frames though, you can... just not to the extent of the current rackets. And yes... I can still hit topspin with a small headed racket with "omg" a 1HBH. Borg did it as well as Vilas to excess.

My point was that tennis was a more thoughtful, and I would argue skillful game... were it was difficult to win a shot on one swing of the racket. I guess I would analogize it to golf where everyone could now hit 400 yard drives, golf did something to control and limit the power of the game. Where tennis seemed to let it get away from them... the game has evolved to something significantly different... tennis times power to the nth degree. Maybe dialing back the rackets to 85 sq/in would be ideal.

Ripper014
12-04-2009, 02:57 PM
Thoughts? Yeah, congratulations on finding a stringer who knew how to string a T-3000.

I have found some written directions on the internet... and it appears a member here actually has the original instructions. I have strung one in the past but that was over 30 years ago.

I don't think it will be an issue.

Ripper014
12-04-2009, 03:00 PM
the serve with a wood racquet was pretty weak even at the pro level (i watched the 1979 us open final between chris evert and tracy austin) sure they are women but i don't think most male amateurs could serve nearly as well as they did and their serves were really weak. So, expect your serve to be a lot weaker than those from evert's and austin's. :)

I don't think you can use Chris Evert and Tracy Austins serves as industry standards even in their era. They used the serve to start a point... not as a weapon.

papa
12-04-2009, 03:09 PM
Thanks Mick, enjoyed the clip.

LeeD
12-04-2009, 03:23 PM
Blue Star, the stuff that frayed after 3 days of play.
Once again.... Wilson T's were never good, too flexi, uncontrolled except for Connors, and you know he's got some wierd strokes.
Yonex made GOLDS for you who prefer softer rackets.
Older rackets, sweetspot higher, you can serve harder with them! And 60sq = less air drag.

Ripper014
12-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Blue Star, the stuff that frayed after 3 days of play.
Once again.... Wilson T's were never good, too flexi, uncontrolled except for Connors, and you know he's got some wierd strokes.
Yonex made GOLDS for you who prefer softer rackets.
Older rackets, sweetspot higher, you can serve harder with them! And 60sq = less air drag.

I tried both the Yonex OPS... green and gold, hated them both. In fact the first tournament I ever played the prize was a Yonex OPS Gold... I gave it away. I was never was a fan of the T series... I found it too flexible for me at the time... but I don't seem to be having as much issues with it now. At 50 I guess I am not the free swinging power monger I was at 16.

I based my game around the strokes of Connors and Evert growing up... and always felt no one had a more basic and simple strokes than these two.

LeeD
12-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Hmm...
OPS greens were super stiff.
OPS golds were moderately stiff.
Wilson T's were beyond noodle soft and uncontrollable with fast swing speeds.
Head pros (red) were close to golds.
Head Masters (blue) were softer than golds.
NEW prostaffs were medium stiff, very similar to golds, for ONE string job.
New Kramers were slightly softer than ProStaffs.
New Smiths were stiff as a board.

Mick
12-04-2009, 03:43 PM
I don't think you can use Chris Evert and Tracy Austins serves as industry standards even in their era. They used the serve to start a point... not as a weapon.

yeah but how many amateurs can serve as well as they did with a wood racquet?

i watched wimbledon final 1978 and martina navratilova did not serve much harder with a wood racquet either, and martina's strong point was her serve.

it's unrealistic to think that we could serve as hard as jimmy connors or bjorn borg did with the old racquets. imo, we would be lucky to be serving close to the level of the top women's pros of those days.

Ripper014
12-04-2009, 04:02 PM
yeah but how many amateurs can serve as well as they did with a wood racquet?

i watched wimbledon final 1978 and martina navratilova did not serve much harder with a wood racquet either, and martina's strong point was her serve.

it's unrealistic to think that we could serve as hard as jimmy connors or bjorn borg did with the old racquets. imo, we would be lucky to be serving close to the level of the top women's pros of those days.



I am pretty sure anyone that played back in the 70's with a good service motion could serve faster than Evert and Austin with the same equipment. I played with a wood racket a few weeks ago and served just fine, not with the normal pace I generate... but enough to be effective. I don't think Evert or Austins serve was much faster than 75mph.

Philippoussis could still hit serves at between 125 and 135 with a wood racket... down slightly from his 140, about a 5% speed loss. Given the same variables... my serve was recorded at about 115 with a Dunlop 200g back in 1995 (not exactly a power frame)... so if you remove 5% I am still in the mid 100 mph... Connors topped out at about 105mph so I am in the neighbourhood... but Connors serve was never a weapon either.

LeeD
12-04-2009, 04:03 PM
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree, especially with regards of my experience in serve contests WITH the pros around, and the results were separated AFTER the contest, to Pro and Amateur.
For the millionth time, ColinDibley at 149 for first fastest unconstested.
At least 4 amateurs, including me, over 125.
The mainstream Wilson team of StanSmith, DickStockton, and RaulRameriz, with MikeCahill sort included, mid 125's.
Sure, JohnElway can toss a football 80 yards as a 6'3" 235lbs pro QB.
But I tossed a football easy 70 yards as a 5'5", 110 lbs weakside linebacker!
OK, Jamarcus Russel was reputed to toss a football 100 yards, but if you watch the Raiders play, he can't keep it on the field.

Mick
12-04-2009, 05:43 PM
maybe you guys are the exceptions among the amateurs.
i know when i use a wood racquet to play against people who use a modern racquet, the serve and the return of serve are the two most challenging shots.
if i manage to get into a rally, i feel i am on equal footing with them.

as for the pros, since their serving techniques are perfect, it's not surprising that they could serve nearly as well with a wood racquet.

papa
12-05-2009, 05:29 AM
No, Mick your right, you cannot serve as well (pace and spin) with a wooden racquet - actually there is quite a difference.

Now, if someone played with the older equipment and was away from the game and came back, they probably could (at first anyway) hit as well with the older equipment. Look, if the older racquets were as good, guess what, you would see a lot of them being used - I see it as a novelty thing these days. Not sure what it proves but to each its own.

LeeD
12-05-2009, 07:07 AM
Once again, higher sweetspot of the old rackets = longer leverage arm. Even old woodies like my ProStaff's used VS gut at 60 odd lbs., basically modern strings thos from the '70's.
Not saying the spin was the same, but the speed of the ball definetely the same. And maybe 5mph difference between NEW ProStaffs and NEW YonnexGreens.
Air drag was significantly less with 60sq in rackets.
Don't believe me? Try serving fast first serves with a 115 sq in racket, about the same difference between '70's rackets to today's 95's. Today's 95's being exampled as the "norm" of today for big servers.

autumn_leaf
12-05-2009, 09:31 PM
last year i both two brand new t-3000 from the auction site.
i brought them to the local pro shop for a string job.

the string jobs were $20 more than the cost of the racquets and the stringer didn't even want to do it :shock:

haha, same thing happened to me when i ask the people at Dick's if they could string a wood racquet.

me: can you guy string racquets here?

them: yea, no prob.

Me: a wood racquet?

them: *strange frightened face* no! i don't even recommend playing with one!

then again this is the same store that told me they couldn't string my yonex racquets because of the head shape....x_X

as for playing with a wood racquet. my friend had an old maxply that was still strung with gut, prolly from like 30+ years ago but it looked brand new. i couldn't find the sweetspot on this thing, i don't know how i could miss it the tennis ball took up pretty much the whole string bed...:confused: but serves and serve returns were the hardest parts. the ground strokes i had to hit fairly flat. forget about WW FH with 60in head size, even my regular topspin stroke was producing too many shanks. playing with heavy small headed racquets like these really made you concentrate more.

Mick
12-05-2009, 09:56 PM
as for playing with a wood racquet. my friend had an old maxply that was still strung with gut, prolly from like 30+ years ago but it looked brand new. i couldn't find the sweetspot on this thing, i don't know how i could miss it the tennis ball took up pretty much the whole string bed...:confused: but serves and serve returns were the hardest parts. the ground strokes i had to hit fairly flat. forget about WW FH with 60in head size, even my regular topspin stroke was producing too many shanks. playing with heavy small headed racquets like these really made you concentrate more.

i totally agree and the bryan brothers share our opinion :)
__________________
"...The Bryans said their volleys with wood felt almost the same as with today's rackets. But like several other players, they said serving and hitting groundstrokes were compromised.

"You only get 50%-60% of your normal power," said Bob Bryan, who nonetheless would like to see a "cap" on some of the advancements in racket technology."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/2007-06-20-raquet-tech_N.htm

Ripper014
12-05-2009, 10:21 PM
i totally agree and the bryan brothers share our opinion :)
__________________
"...The Bryans said their volleys with wood felt almost the same as with today's rackets. But like several other players, they said serving and hitting groundstrokes were compromised.

"You only get 50%-60% of your normal power," said Bob Bryan, who nonetheless would like to see a "cap" on some of the advancements in racket technology."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/2007-06-20-raquet-tech_N.htm


Playing with older frames are a different experience...coming from that generation I can still remember how it was. It was a game that was more rounded... more diverse, you had power players... those that would run down everything and keep you out there all day, and then the artistic type playing every inch of the court... using every possible kind of spin. And they were all successful...

You definitely needed to take care of your shots... it was easier to miss hit than with todays large heads... and power was not so easy to come by.

I would not say that you only got 50-60%.... I would say closer to 85-90%. As for serving and returning being the most difficult change in the game... I am not so sure... you have total control over the serve... and I didn't have any problems with my serve other than a moderate loss of power. My return of serve was an issue though... but then given 80% more racket face I can see how using a modern racket would make that easier.

I would like to see a cap on the modern game of tennis too... and bring back some styles of the game that have been lost over the past few decades.

papa
12-06-2009, 04:12 AM
I would like to see a cap on the modern game of tennis too... and bring back some styles of the game that have been lost over the past few decades.

Well, I can assure you that is isn't going to happen although its amazing how different shots that were once popular are making a comeback.

mental midget
12-06-2009, 06:13 AM
the atp should turn newport into a 1000 level woody only tournament.