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tennis_balla
12-08-2009, 05:12 PM
Ok, so the last thread where I posted this got deleted so I'm gonna try again to put this up for others to see. This is Luis Mediero of RPT Europe doing a seminar on Spanish training methods and philosophies a few years ago. Its not the whole video, just a portion of it. Enjoy :)

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Aj8jYfKqio

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHd0kMBdGkE

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfH_KB63k44

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCcb_sYn7dA

Edit:
Two more videos uploaded, these are a few of the on-court drills presented in the video in connection to what was being discussed/lectured earlier.

RPT Drills Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xo0ffkh-Z4

RPT Drills Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqCfLhWVaAE

Edit 2:

Links fixed :)

5263
12-08-2009, 06:33 PM
Nice posting,
thanks

VaBeachTennis
12-08-2009, 06:59 PM
Thanks for posting that. It's going on my blog with credit to you and TW forums.

tennis_balla
12-08-2009, 09:22 PM
Thanks for posting that. It's going on my blog with credit to you and TW forums.

No problem, glad you enjoyed it :)

=========================================

I've also added a couple more videos to the original post if anyone is interested.

UnforcedError
12-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Great videos thanks for posting that.

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 12:40 AM
Luis is a legend, the passion the man has is infectious! Was chatting to him last weekend about the state of tennis in britain and spain. He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players. At least they will be changing in a position of strength unlike britain and the US who will be working from a position of relative weakness.

The reason the RPT system of teaching works so well is that nearly all spanish coaches are trained by the RPT so there is a unified and cohesive approach. In the UK there is the LTA coach education - (which from the courses i've done is more concerned about how you look and sound rather than giving you the technical tools to teach), the PTR-UK (who don't count really) and the RPT (we are growing rapidly!). Most UK coaches have been through LTA Coach Ed, which has no system for teaching as such.

The irony is the rest of the world are just catching on to the "Spanish" (RPT) system when they are about to develop it to move it forward for the next generation.

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 12:49 AM
Also, forgot to add that a big difference in the Spanish (RPT) sytem is that the body is trained as much as the racquet, insofar as movement, positioning, footwork patterns are concerned - it's not just the racquet. When I did some work with Vicente Calvo (verdasco's trainer) he made the point that many Spanish players are not as technically coherent with the racquet as players from other countries but they use their bodies much better - they are much more physical in their approach.

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 01:26 AM
Also, forgot to add that a big difference in the Spanish (RPT) sytem is that the body is trained as much as the racquet, insofar as movement, positioning, footwork patterns are concerned - it's not just the racquet. When I did some work with Vicente Calvo (verdasco's trainer) he made the point that many Spanish players are not as technically coherent with the racquet as players from other countries but they use their bodies much better - they are much more physical in their approach.

I took the RPT recognized Sanchez-Casal coaching course in Barcelona and the drills that were introduced are exactly what you are talking about. Its playing tennis with your feet, not just relying on your racket. Some people I've heard do not like the Spanish X drill patterns but that is the way you move on court. Maybe they misunderstand it but you can see a change in the Spanish system to what people think it is, or was says back in the early 90's. It is much more all-court now, which is an interesting shift from a nation that grows up playing on red clay.

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 01:37 AM
The Sanchez-Casal core drills are excellent, in the UK we offer this as a one day CPD course or as part of the full certification programme. The big thing i've found when teaching them to coaches is that many of them don't have the skills to either feed them properly or the knowledge to teach the important points during the drills. Most just use them to fill some time rather than to actually teach.

Of the 6 core drills at least half involve the volley, which like you say promotes an all-court style. again it's about not putting barriers in your players path - just because Rafa doesn't volley often doesn't mean he can't - in fact when he does volley he nearly always wins the point.

The only drill of the 6 I'm not keen on is the drive volley drill - because it has the player moving backwards to hit the drive volley (the argument being the player learns to move back and then shift their weight forward into the hit - it needs to be taught really well to make sense).

Glad you enjoyed the course.

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 01:51 AM
I actually love the volley drive drill, when we had to do it in the course it was the one that I enjoyed the most and helped my footwork a lot also.
It is a tricky one though you're correct. I've done it with a number of people and not only explaining it correctly and having things under control is crucial but also making sure you feed the ball at the right height and speed so the player can execute the drill properly. I did the course with 3 other guys and that was the one some had problems with as well as feeding it deep enough on the baseline to get the player moving back into a defensive position.
I can't imagine those drills being used to fill time, that's ridiculous. Everyone I've introduce those drills to (players during lessons) have loved them and said its different to what they've ever done before. The one bounce, 2 volleys (starting on service line, move back to hit a groundie then 2 volleys) was actually the most popular.

I think we should continue the discussion here if you want, we're getting off topic in the other thread.

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 02:07 AM
true (slaps self on wrist) :)

Like I said, you've got to teach during the drills to make them worthwile - many coaches i've taught the drills to don't have the feeding skills required either.

The big thing I noticed when I first learned the drills myself was that the first feed always puts the player in a defensive situation and then the drill develops into offence. Most coaches i've taught make their first feeds "nice" to help the player - not the most realistic way to start a drill.

Look at how Nadal, Verdasco, Murray etc turn defence into attack so quickly and you can see which approach is better long term!

W Cats
12-09-2009, 11:57 AM
Great info OP. Thanks for the links and exposing me to a new paradigim.

mikro112
12-09-2009, 12:02 PM
tennis_balla: Please check your email! I've sent you one. :)

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 12:16 PM
true (slaps self on wrist) :)

Like I said, you've got to teach during the drills to make them worthwile - many coaches i've taught the drills to don't have the feeding skills required either.

The big thing I noticed when I first learned the drills myself was that the first feed always puts the player in a defensive situation and then the drill develops into offence. Most coaches i've taught make their first feeds "nice" to help the player - not the most realistic way to start a drill.

Look at how Nadal, Verdasco, Murray etc turn defence into attack so quickly and you can see which approach is better long term!

Yea what I found interesting is after apply the drills myself in lessons I noticed how much trouble players have in moving backwards, yet how many times in a match do you move like that? especially at the club level with those high balls some people hit, quite a lot. Its not always smart to hit on the rise all the time on everything, besides with the spin nowadays you can get a high deep ball and it doesn't need to hit 2 feet from the baseline and you will have to move back to hit it. I also noticed looking back that most places teach unrealistic drills. When I used to teach at Newcombes in Texas, I worked a bit with their adult program but then only with their junior academy (thank god). Their feeding drills (for both programs, including the top juniors) consisted of drills that went something like this: forehand, backhand, short ball, volley, volley, overhead.
The thing that is wrong with that is 1. you're only teaching players to move forward and not like at S-C where you also learn to move back on a high deep ball, get behind the ball, load on rear foot etc so you can recover faster and 2. its unrealistic cause the player didn't earn that short ball, they could of duffed one into the net, or hit it short yet the next ball was still a short ball from the coach. There were other things, such as mostly going crosscourt on groundies and only hitting down the line in approaches but I wanna avoid writing a novel of a post :)

Edit:

Glad you enjoyed it W Cats :)

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 12:30 PM
tennis_balla: Please check your email! I've sent you one. :)

Got it and replied...

EP1998
12-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Of the 6 core drills at least half involve the volley, which like you say promotes an all-court style. again it's about not putting barriers in your players path - just because Rafa doesn't volley often doesn't mean he can't - in fact when he does volley he nearly always wins the point.

Glad you enjoyed the course.

That's the big shocker for Americans when they go to play on red clay against people who grew up on it. The clay court specialist works the point and then comes in and hits an angled volley or drop volley winner and wins the point.

W Cats
12-09-2009, 01:17 PM
TB, I can't seem to pull up the Part 1 Drill vid. It was also not in the list of 8 vids that you posted on Youtube. Help.

Thanks in advance, Gary

5th Element
12-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Luis is a legend, the passion the man has is infectious! Was chatting to him last weekend about the state of tennis in britain and spain. He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players. At least they will be changing in a position of strength unlike britain and the US who will be working from a position of relative weakness.

The reason the RPT system of teaching works so well is that nearly all spanish coaches are trained by the RPT so there is a unified and cohesive approach. In the UK there is the LTA coach education - (which from the courses i've done is more concerned about how you look and sound rather than giving you the technical tools to teach), the PTR-UK (who don't count really) and the RPT (we are growing rapidly!). Most UK coaches have been through LTA Coach Ed, which has no system for teaching as such.

The irony is the rest of the world are just catching on to the "Spanish" (RPT) system when they are about to develop it to move it forward for the next generation.

Ash_Smith without attempting to devalue your - undoubtedly - strong experience, I'd like to disagree on a couple of points.

I've done both the LTA DCA course as well as the PTR UK one. None of them are perfect without a shadow of a doubt but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they have no system of teaching!

LTA is using the game based approach without placing too much emphasis on tehnique, error detection, etc. Agility, balance, coordination (ABC) are extensively covered and tested on. Their method is based around the five playing situations and the five basic tactics.

PTR is much more technical but doesn't tell you how to run coaching sessions after your initial 30-minute serve/forehand/backhand lesson. You need to attend seminars delivered after the certification stage to fill in the -admittedly - major gaps!

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 01:23 PM
TB, I can't seem to pull up the Part 1 Drill vid. It was also not in the list of 8 vids that you posted on Youtube. Help.

Thanks in advance, Gary

Sorry, my mistake I had it set to private. Should be good now, was wondering why no one was viewing that one haha

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Ash_Smith without attempting to devalue your - undoubtedly - strong experience, I'd like to disagree on a couple of points.

I've done both the LTA DCA course as well as the PTR UK one. None of them are perfect without a shadow of a doubt but I wouldn't go as far as to say that they have no system of teaching!

LTA is using the game based approach without placing too much emphasis on tehnique, error detection, etc. Agility, balance, coordination (ABC) are extensively covered and tested on. Their method is based around the five playing situations and the five basic tactics. !

No worries, disagreement and discussion is how we get better at this silly game!!! :)

How recently did you do your DCA - have you done it since the new technical progressions were introduced - did you learn to teach the brand new semi-continental grip which is the cornerstone of the new LTA progressions!

We (the RPT) have been lobbying the LTA for years that progression based technical teching is the best method and they've finally adopted it - however they cant use RPT, PTR, USPTA, MTM progressions so they had to invent some.

The 5 game situations have now changed too I believe - to something slightly less comprehensible than before. Did you have "At baseline/serving/returning/opp at net/you at net" as the 5 game situations

I did my DCA about 10 years ago and found it next to pointless in terms of technical teaching - the highlight being a tutor (who shall remain nameless) saying that in the first instance you want the the player to "shovel the ball over anyway possible" not exactly what you want to hear when learning to coach for the first time! I didn't really find the CCA much better to be honest. Still little focus on technical development.

W Cats
12-09-2009, 02:30 PM
TB, Thanks I got it. What is the Spanish X Drill pattern? I'm a high school coach and am always looking to expand my knowledge base to be more effective.

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 02:45 PM
TB, Thanks I got it. What is the Spanish X Drill pattern? I'm a high school coach and am always looking to expand my knowledge base to be more effective.

Here's an example direct from the S-C book
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd177/dsotm80/BasicDrill7.jpg

Ash_Smith
12-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Bah got there while I was typing!!!...

Difficult to describe in words...

Two variations.
a) Player starts on the service line "T" - recovery to this point after each shot in the sequence.

First feed - diagonally back and behind the player - player hits forehand groundy
Second feed - diagonally infront of the player - player hits forehand volley
Third feed - diagonally back behind the player - player hits backhand groundy
Fourth feed - diagonally in front - player hits backhand volley

b)Player starts at baseline "T" - recovery after each shot.
First feed - diagonally behind player - player hits forehand rally/moonball
Second feed - diagonally infront of player - player hits attacking short ball forehand groundy
Third feed - as first but to backhand side.
Fourth feed - as second but to backhand

So the pattern looks like... where the player starts at x
4....................2
-------X--------
3....................1

hope that makes sense? will try to find my illustration from the coaches pack we give out!

The key teaching points are the movement between shots and the various rotations of the body in the changes of direction.

julian
12-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Bah got there while I was typing!!!...

Difficult to describe in words...

Two variations.
a) Player starts on the service line "T" - recovery to this point after each shot in the sequence.

First feed - diagonally back and behind the player - player hits forehand groundy
Second feed - diagonally infront of the player - player hits forehand volley
Third feed - diagonally back behind the player - player hits backhand groundy
Fourth feed - diagonally in front - player hits backhand volley

b)Player starts at baseline "T" - recovery after each shot.
First feed - diagonally behind player - player hits forehand rally/moonball
Second feed - diagonally infront of player - player hits attacking short ball forehand groundy
Third feed - as first but to backhand side.
Fourth feed - as second but to backhand

So the pattern looks like... where the player starts at x
4....................2
-------X--------
3....................1

hope that makes sense? will try to find my illustration from the coaches pack we give out!

The key teaching points are the movement between shots and the various rotations of the body in the changes of direction.
A point raised some time ago is whether an insructor enforces
a higher percentage shots from students.More later

Bungalo Bill
12-09-2009, 03:49 PM
A point raised some time ago is whether an insructor enforces
a higher percentage shots from students.More later

That is a good point. IMO a players game should be centered around making the high-percentage shot over the low percentage shot before any shot you take. This helps fufill one of the main principles in tennis and that is to be consistent. When the situation calls for it, a player may take on more risk if they "own" the shot or has little choice. However, if the high percentage shot will give them the point, they should take it.

tennis_balla
12-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Thats one of the things Luis was discussing in the video about decision making on the court, if the player had enough time and was in position to change direction of the ball and/or go for more and have the coach support or correct the decision.

VaBeachTennis
12-09-2009, 04:11 PM
true (slaps self on wrist) :)

Like I said, you've got to teach during the drills to make them worthwile - many coaches i've taught the drills to don't have the feeding skills required either.

The big thing I noticed when I first learned the drills myself was that the first feed always puts the player in a defensive situation and then the drill develops into offence. Most coaches i've taught make their first feeds "nice" to help the player - not the most realistic way to start a drill.

Look at how Nadal, Verdasco, Murray etc turn defence into attack so quickly and you can see which approach is better long term!

I liked those drills in the OP. The way he made them count the points was good as well. In the beginning stages, I can see feeding the ball "nice", just so the students groove their strokes and become more confident and proficient. What I see around here are too many coaches/instructors who just feed and stay in one place. The way the coach on the video mixed the feeds up was very nice as well. What I liked about the drill in "Drills 1" , is that the "feeder"/coach actually moved and gave the student a good mental picture of an opponent and where to hit the ball. Very nice.

Bungalo Bill
12-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Thats one of the things Luis was discussing in the video about decision making on the court, if the player had enough time and was in position to change direction of the ball and/or go for more and have the coach support or correct the decision.

If a player has the shot and decides the take on more risk (reasonably more risk), then yeah, take it. I would question the player if he didn't.

Making good shot choices is part of the mental game and mental toughness that needs to be drilled and skilled.

Players with nice strokes but poor shot selection barely and rarely get past 4.0. They look good, can be competitive, but their poor mental strength lacks and their entire rating drops with it.

It isn't easy for some people to have the patience and satiasfaction in simply hitting the right shot even though it won't make the ESPN highlights. Some players really struggle with this and would rather lose being flashy then win being rather dull.

5th Element
12-10-2009, 01:26 AM
Hey Ash,

Of course I forgot to mention that the PTR is (very) hot on progressions too - so they're pretty good in that respect.

I did my DCA 4 years ago. It looks like a lot has changed since then. Why can't they use existing progressions? Are they copyrighted in some way or is it just politics?

They 5 games situations are the ones you mentioned. What are they now?

I'm still concerned and confused by some of the 'new' courses coming out of various academies/federations as they are in complete conflict with current trends. For example the play and stay initiative does dp a lot of the "shovel the ball over anyway possible".

Your thoughts welcome...

Ash_Smith
12-10-2009, 01:59 AM
That is a good point. IMO a players game should be centered around making the high-percentage shot over the low percentage shot before any shot you take. This helps fufill one of the main principles in tennis and that is to be consistent. When the situation calls for it, a player may take on more risk if they "own" the shot or has little choice. However, if the high percentage shot will give them the point, they should take it.

Luis talks alot about managing risk and that by using the correct patterns of play for your game style you can hit winners with little risk because the space has been made by good point construction rather than raw pace.

The consitencey comes from the 8/10 principal - a drill doesn't develop until the player can make at least 8/10 into the target area at the required level. A drill starts with single feeds, the player has to make at least 8/10 consistantly before the drill goes live ball and the same again before it goes competitive. The theory being if you cant hit it off a "fed" ball you cant hit it off a live ball.

The baseline of Spanish tennis is all about consistency - and the ability to maintain consistency over a long period. From there the attacking patterns develop.

Ash_Smith
12-10-2009, 02:01 AM
It isn't easy for some people to have the patience and satiasfaction in simply hitting the right shot even though it won't make the ESPN highlights. Some players really struggle with this and would rather lose being flashy then win being rather dull.

That's what makes them club players and not Pro's! Changing that mentality is one of the hardest parts of coaching!

Ash_Smith
12-10-2009, 02:11 AM
Hey Ash,

Of course I forgot to mention that the PTR is (very) hot on progressions too - so they're pretty good in that respect.

I did my DCA 4 years ago. It looks like a lot has changed since then. Why can't they use existing progressions? Are they copyrighted in some way or is it just politics?

They 5 games situations are the ones you mentioned. What are they now?

I'm still concerned and confused by some of the 'new' courses coming out of various academies/federations as they are in complete conflict with current trends. For example the play and stay initiative does dp a lot of the "shovel the ball over anyway possible".

Your thoughts welcome...

Yeah the DCA (or Coach award as it is now) is very different and te structure is so much more confusing now than it has ever been - with different strands you can take after the core Coach modules depending on wether you want to go performance or club routes etc.

The content is now progression based, but the progressions do not map across to what we see the pro's doing. The thing I like about the RPT progressions is that they are mapped off the fundamentals that you see at the top level and that they can be used for all ages. Nothing has to change from when you start teaching them to when they win the French Open! With the new LTA progressions you start with a semi-continental grip for the forehand and an open racquet face - this will need to be changed at a certain point in order to keep progressing. Why teach something now that you need to undo later?

The game situations are now something like "when attacking/when defending/when in transition" something like that - maybe somebody has done the course recently and can confirm?

The PTR have always been progression based - last time I did their progressions they led to a very "old-fashioned" classical stroke. This may have changed now - can you update me on them?

W Cats
12-10-2009, 08:37 AM
TB and/or AS The X is an interesting drill pattern and I can envision some of it's application. The example from the manual is from court positions 1,2. If from court positions 2,3 is the middle of the X at the center hash mark on the baseline?

julian
12-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Hey Ash,

Of course I forgot to mention that the PTR is (very) hot on progressions too - so they're pretty good in that respect.

I did my DCA 4 years ago. It looks like a lot has changed since then. Why can't they use existing progressions? Are they copyrighted in some way or is it just politics?

They 5 games situations are the ones you mentioned. What are they now?

I'm still concerned and confused by some of the 'new' courses coming out of various academies/federations as they are in complete conflict with current trends. For example the play and stay initiative does dp a lot of the "shovel the ball over anyway possible".

Your thoughts welcome...
Hi,
I would like to add couple of sentences about progressions.
Not sure whether it is OK because a post was addressed to someone else

W Cats
12-10-2009, 08:39 AM
Just reaed one of the examples more closely and answered my own question.

Ash_Smith
12-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Julian. go for it. all information is welcome. Not that I need to give you permission!!!

Bungalo Bill
12-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Luis talks alot about managing risk and that by using the correct patterns of play for your game style you can hit winners with little risk because the space has been made by good point construction rather than raw pace.

Managing risk is key. Managing risk at a moments notice or in real-time is paramount. Managing risk has a connection with managing a players judgement, emotions, and quick-thinking for improved shot selection.

This is especially true when a player begins to hone in their stroke technique and starts wanting to go beyond just hitting a ball.

Executing the correct patterns and managing risk is both science (correct patterns - the rule) and art (knowing when to go beyond correct patterns - the exception). The tennis player that ignores the fundamental principles of correct patterns and only goes with what he feels is right (the exception), runs the risk of reaching a certain level and not advancing because they are using the exception more often thant the rule at times they should be simplifying and going with the correct patterns.

The individual risk element should be viewed in light of what the player owns. Some players can do things with a certain ball even when they are off-balance or look like they are in trouble that another player can't do.

Good coaching will consider that when judging the decision making in shot selection the player takes and performs. This is sort of the "art" side of shot selection, risk management, and choices. :)

The consitencey comes from the 8/10 principal - a drill doesn't develop until the player can make at least 8/10 into the target area at the required level. A drill starts with single feeds, the player has to make at least 8/10 consistantly before the drill goes live ball and the same again before it goes competitive. The theory being if you cant hit it off a "fed" ball you cant hit it off a live ball.

The baseline of Spanish tennis is all about consistency - and the ability to maintain consistency over a long period. From there the attacking patterns develop.

Yup, good stuff man! I love it! I am all for it! Glad we are talking about this. I get a bit bored just talking about stroke technique at times.

tennis_balla
12-10-2009, 12:01 PM
TB and/or AS The X is an interesting drill pattern and I can envision some of it's application. The example from the manual is from court positions 1,2. If from court positions 2,3 is the middle of the X at the center hash mark on the baseline?

Just reaed one of the examples more closely and answered my own question.

Glad you got it. A drill like that can be changed in so many ways, especially on the spot thats why I like them so much and like you noticed baseline concept is the same.

julian
12-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Julian. go for it. all information is welcome. Not that I need to give you permission!!!

Regressions are of different types :

1.minimizing complexity

2.addressing some time related problems

3.addressing some space/distance related problems

4.decomposing footwork from body mechanics

An example: serve can be taught from a serve line instead of a baseline.
So it can be classified as type #3 described above
An abbreviated serve is an example of type #1
A Bailey method is related to type #4
PS
I did pass 3 of 5 PTR tests
A lot of coaches do regressions without being certified by PTR.
I will try to expand this post today or tomorrow or answer some specific questions if I am NOT on a court.

W Cats
12-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Interesting thing happened last night when I focused on one of the the RPT concepts, reading the opponent, durring the weekly doubles session.

But first a little background about my eyes. My vision has gotten progresively worse over the last 3 years. Astigmatisim in one eye is so bad in one eye that I can't get 20/20 correction with contacts anymore. All this has slowed my reaction time down considerably on returns but less so with net play. My guess is that it has more to do with seeing the server from afar than real reaction time as my reaction volleys are still there. To keep it short I've been a bit discouraged about how much further I can progress in my game because of this eye problem.

Now back to last night. I felt like I had one of those breakthrough moments. It wasn't that I played particularly great or was in the zone, but reading my opponent seemed to give me much more time. Time to move , time to prepare, time to execute. I felt less of using my court and opponent knowledge to guess where the shot might go but actually knowing more where it will go a greater percentage of the time based on really seeing how they are setting up for the shot. As a matter of fact a few tiems I got so caught up in "reading the opponent" that I forgot to move - a little embarassing. When I was at net with my partner serving I decided not to focus at all on where the serve bounced but soley on the returner and again was surprised at how much visual info there was about where the ball was going before it was struck. The few times I was surprised then where mainly due to mishits.

Good stuff. Thanks again.:):)

Gary

julian
12-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Yeah the DCA (or Coach award as it is now) is very different and te structure is so much more confusing now than it has ever been - with different strands you can take after the core Coach modules depending on wether you want to go performance or club routes etc.

The content is now progression based, but the progressions do not map across to what we see the pro's doing. The thing I like about the RPT progressions is that they are mapped off the fundamentals that you see at the top level and that they can be used for all ages. Nothing has to change from when you start teaching them to when they win the French Open! With the new LTA progressions you start with a semi-continental grip for the forehand and an open racquet face - this will need to be changed at a certain point in order to keep progressing. Why teach something now that you need to undo later?

The game situations are now something like "when attacking/when defending/when in transition" something like that - maybe somebody has done the course recently and can confirm?

The PTR have always been progression based - last time I did their progressions they led to a very "old-fashioned" classical stroke. This may have changed now - can you update me on them?
I have posted couple of sentences about progressions.
Walking on thin ice a bit :)
You may try to read between lines if you want to.

tennis_balla
12-10-2009, 08:44 PM
I've had emails from several people asking me to upload the whole video onto a file sharing site. I've posted these videos which are copyrighted onto YouTube for TW and had some doubts doing so, but I am glad I did it and also that this thread has turned into a healthy discussion about tennis, coaching philosophies and even helped some people.
I own the DVD and yes have it also on my HD as a backup and to view anytime. I understand people wanting to view the whole video and I don't blame you but I'm sorry guys I'm not comfortable uploading the whole 4GB DVD onto a file sharing site for obvious reasons.

Hope everyone understands :)

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 12:54 AM
Balla, no probs - I don't think we'd be too happy with you posting the whole course video on the internet either!!!

Xenakis
12-11-2009, 03:23 AM
Anyone have any links/info about the 'mirrors' thing rpt teaches for forehand and backhands?. Similar to the 'windshield wiper' technique?.

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 03:36 AM
Regressions are of different types :

1.minimizing complexity
2.addressing some time related problems
3.addressing some space/distance related problems
4.decomposing footwork from body mechanics

An example: serve can be taught from a serve line instead of a baseline.
So it can be classified as type #3 described above
An abbreviated serve is an example of type #1
A Bailey method is related to type #4


I think you're right in what you say. I use the RPT progressive teaching model from start to finish when working with a beginner or mini-tennis player. Where the progs work really well also is, as you say, regressing a player - for example breaking down the serve. Most club players have a full service action but have certain elements which are missing - pronation, extension etc - regressing the player back to just working on the missing element helps them isolate the correct feeling and then rebuild the full swing.

I do this with my ITF players, we isolate and practice the pronation/extension on the serve every session before putting the full serve together.

everett
12-11-2009, 05:45 AM
Is there a book or quide you can buy detailing the RPT training methods etc.?If so where do you get it?
Do you have to take the course to get the info?

julian
12-11-2009, 08:51 AM
I think you're right in what you say. I use the RPT progressive teaching model from start to finish when working with a beginner or mini-tennis player. Where the progs work really well also is, as you say, regressing a player - for example breaking down the serve. Most club players have a full service action but have certain elements which are missing - pronation, extension etc - regressing the player back to just working on the missing element helps them isolate the correct feeling and then rebuild the full swing.

I do this with my ITF players, we isolate and practice the pronation/extension on the serve every session before putting the full serve together.

Creating a progression is NOT a simple matter
Think about a group lesson at which we teach forehand.
You have four intermediate students-
two of them have a continental grip,one western and one semi-western.
Assume that you are NOT going to change their grips to HAVE ONE UNIFORM grip for 4 of them.
Try to write down a detailed progression for them.
You have 20 minutes to work on forehand.
Try to discuss a location of a contact point without confusing one of students.
Try to see how many commonalities you will see
I expect that you would respond that you do NOT run group lessons :)

PS I USED to post at www.tennisplayer.net
using two aliases:
uspta146749877
and
julian
If you have an access to www.tennisplayer.net you may read some of my posts.

julian
12-11-2009, 09:01 AM
That is a good point. IMO a players game should be centered around making the high-percentage shot over the low percentage shot before any shot you take. This helps fufill one of the main principles in tennis and that is to be consistent. When the situation calls for it, a player may take on more risk if they "own" the shot or has little choice. However, if the high percentage shot will give them the point, they should take it.

Please see a post #47 below

Bungalo Bill
12-11-2009, 10:01 AM
Creating a progression is NOT a simple matter
Think about a group lesson at which we teach forehand.
You have four intermediate students-
two of them have a continental grip,one western and one semi-western.
Assume that you are NOT going to change their grips to HAVE ONE UNIFORM grip for 4 of them.

When teaching group lessons I oftened did not create progression type lesson plans especially considering your example above. However, I would create progression plans from a general sense (i.e. footwork, patterns, ball movement, ball recognition, etc...). If a an issue came up, I would address it in an ad-hoc manner and then continue the general lesson using the students ability to correct himself or coach himself with the proper information. If he still could not get it, I would recommend a private lesson or practice if I sensed it was only repetition that was needed.

Try to write down a detailed progression for them.
You have 20 minutes to work on forehand.
Try to discuss a location of a contact point without confusing one of students.

Well location of contact can be individualize based on grip used and taught in a group lesson when that individual is ready to perform the drill. However, I wouldn't create my lesson plan around that specifically. I would work on contact point indirectly by having them hit to various places on the court.

5th Element
12-11-2009, 10:19 AM
Ash, can you please tell me what the prerequisites are for attending the RPT Advanced Coaching course? I have the LTA DCA and am a PTR Professional. Is there an exam at the end?

Cheers!

W Cats
12-11-2009, 10:25 AM
Group Lesson vs. Private Lessons.

Julian in the situation you describe I would tend to disagree with your conclusion or implication about it not being a group lesson. To me a private lesson revolves around 1 persons needs period. The task, tecnical content, drill, progression, mini progressions, pace of the lesson, practice time, difficulty level, physical threshold levels, tactical application all revolve around one persons needs. To provide a service of the above to a group of 4/5 is simple unrealistic and gives me a headache even to think about. That is not to say that you can't give everyone individual feedback about how they are performing to the group task and make corrective or reinforcing comments.

Bkgrd: This is from the point of view of a non certified teaching pro. I'm just a high school coach. But I have 18 years of ski teaching experience and am fully ceritfied in that industry and had gotten as far as the regional clinician/examiner pool.

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 01:16 PM
Anyone have any links/info about the 'mirrors' thing rpt teaches for forehand and backhands?. Similar to the 'windshield wiper' technique?.

The "mirrors" is a description to illustrate the position of the racquet to the student at certain points in the swing - the idea being that the back of the stringbed is a mirror and that at the key progressions the student can "see their reflection in the mirror"

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 01:20 PM
Ash, can you please tell me what the prerequisites are for attending the RPT Advanced Coaching course? I have the LTA DCA and am a PTR Professional. Is there an exam at the end?

Cheers!

You either need to have done the MOAP+ and scored National Professional or at least level 3 qualified with another training provider - LTA, USPTA etc so with your DCA you'll be fine. There's a series of teaching assessments during the course, a presentation, and create a portfolio to demonstrate your understanding of the training programme showing your work with 2 advanced players and one of your teams. This will include lesson plans, coaching log, periodisation plans, video technical analysis, psychology, fitness etc…You will also be required to present a project of a minimum of 3,000 words from a range of subjects.

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 01:24 PM
Is there a book or quide you can buy detailing the RPT training methods etc.?If so where do you get it?
Do you have to take the course to get the info?

At the moment yes the only way to get the info is to take the course, for which you get the course manual. We may produce a book or DVD in the UK in the near future. Luis Mediero has produced many books and DVD's over the years so those might be worth looking for.

Xenakis
12-11-2009, 01:28 PM
The "mirrors" is a description to illustrate the position of the racquet to the student at certain points in the swing - the idea being that the back of the stringbed is a mirror and that at the key progressions the student can "see their reflection in the mirror"

Thanks makes sense, the coach at my club is RPT and he mentioned 'mirrors' to me the other day, as did an assistant coach (who did his RPT in Birmingham somewhere recently, think he is qualified as an assistant coach now)

Wasn't sure what it meant but knew it was about being able to see through the strings on forehands and backhands.

I've been working on my serve after having my first lesson the other day (with RPT coach), wasn't pronating properly and my ball toss was in the wrong place (too far in front, should be more over my head). Should be better in the end but it will take some work.

Will take another lesson for my serve then move on to groundstrokes hopefully, I don't have a limitless budget so I need to use the lessons efficiently.

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 01:30 PM
@Xenakis

He would have done his course at Sutton Coldfield. Which club are you at? I might know your coach!

Xenakis
12-11-2009, 02:14 PM
@Xenakis

He would have done his course at Sutton Coldfield. Which club are you at? I might know your coach!

Moseley. You probably know him, not sure he would want to be name checked on the internets though. Perhaps, perhaps not =)

Ash_Smith
12-11-2009, 02:21 PM
Yeah, I probably do know him then!

julian
12-11-2009, 02:51 PM
I think you're right in what you say. I use the RPT progressive teaching model from start to finish when working with a beginner or mini-tennis player. Where the progs work really well also is, as you say, regressing a player - for example breaking down the serve. Most club players have a full service action but have certain elements which are missing - pronation, extension etc - regressing the player back to just working on the missing element helps them isolate the correct feeling and then rebuild the full swing.

I do this with my ITF players, we isolate and practice the pronation/extension on the serve every session before putting the full serve together.

Hi,
next you may think about progressions for serve.
You should decide:
a toss straight up or a "rainbow toss" ?
a platform or pinpoint?
I expect thinking about will kill your weekend completely.
By the way in States we have to work
during weekends,we will have VAT and we do NOT celebrate a BOXING DAY

PS I do NOT have a sense of humor.

Ash_Smith
12-12-2009, 12:08 AM
Hi,

I expect thinking about will kill your weekend completely.
By the way in States we have to work
during weekends,we will have VAT and we do NOT celebrate a BOXING DAY


Julian - are this cryptic when you coach? :)

As regards the progressions with the serve, I know what progressions I teach for the technical aspects of the swing and I know what I teach around that that in respect of ball toss, footwork etc - all based on evidence derived from what happens at the top levels of tennis.

Either you are taking the idea idea of progression based teaching a little too literally or you're being deliberately obtuse! :)

tennis_balla
12-13-2009, 12:55 AM
Julian you actually have to 'work' when you coach? You're in it for the wrong reasons man :-P
I'm kidding, but anyways no fighting guys :mrgreen:

julian
12-13-2009, 07:15 AM
Julian you actually have to 'work' when you coach? You're in it for the wrong reasons man :-P
I'm kidding, but anyways no fighting guys :mrgreen:
It gets worse.I played against a junior and got injured.
Probably should stay away from the forum as well

5263
12-13-2009, 07:47 AM
Julian - are this cryptic when you coach? :)

Either you are taking the idea idea of progression based teaching a little too literally or you're being deliberately obtuse! :)

It's the obtuse thing, but not deliberate, cause it is a natural state. :)

Ash_Smith
12-14-2009, 12:44 AM
@5263

There's been a lot of chatter on this thread about progressive teaching systems - does the MTM have a similar setup for teaching each shot?

tennis_balla
12-15-2009, 05:48 PM
So, I guess the last MTM thread got deleted? Hope this one stays up and hopefully benefits some people. Only way to do that it seems is to keep it MTM free :razz:

Naa, just kidding guys but keep it clean :mrgreen:

Ash_Smith
12-16-2009, 12:48 AM
Yeah, I think the other thread got a little off topic and a bit personal between Drak, BB and 5263.

Balla - have you been using the RPT ideas in your own coaching since the course and how have you found it?

tennis_balla
12-16-2009, 01:23 AM
Yeah, I think the other thread got a little off topic and a bit personal between Drak, BB and 5263.

Balla - have you been using the RPT ideas in your own coaching since the course and how have you found it?

Of course, otherwise I wouldn't of taken it :p

I found it really helpful, mostly in the fact that some of the ideas that were in my head such as not putting everyone into the same mold and treating players as individuals, developing an all-court model but of course the player will always choose which he or she prefers best and then working together on that to get best results kinda felt...out of place sometimes cause I was the only one talking about things like that. So it was good to hear it from them, didn't seem like I was coo-coo and the course fit really well for me. I wasn't lost or didn't know what was going on or anything like that. If that makes sense, its kind of difficult to describe.

They are big on video reviews over there which I love to use also. Problem is last place I worked at had a video camera from '95 with a battery that lasted about 4 min, and this was a 5 star tennis resort, rated Top 25 in the world by some tennis review site. Not sure if I should laugh or cry about that so I'll just be :-|

In terms of the drills I love them cause they are so simple and productive. It surprised a lot of people cause they told me they never moved like that during drills with a coach before but loved it cause it was how they are forced to move or would like to move in a match. Also you can see how the players get it and improve on their movement fairly quickly, so its satisfying as a coach.

Wegner
12-16-2009, 02:12 AM
What is the strength that separates the very top pros from the rest of the field.

Is it technique, focus, mental strength, tactics, or all of the above? You could very well call it a combination of all of those. But in a very special way.

Strangely enough, they are interrelated in one particular aspect. They are all geared to help each other in simplifying the task. The body helps the stroke, the focus helps the mind, the timing helps the power, the tactics are to use your strength.

How could all this happen and not get lost in a maze of data? Very simply. Let's make an absurd example. Lets say you are a well taught player, by conventional teaching standards, and you are in the final of the US Open. You pay attention to your feet position, the path of your backswing, you make sure you prepare early for the shot (you already pictured in your mind where the ball is going to bounce and how), you are also thinking of where you are going to hit the shot to make sure you don't miss it, and secondly, to get your opponent on the run. What would happen? You probably miss the ball entirely!

Well, that is what conventional tennis coaching does to the average player. You have been told that you do all that and one day you'll be a champ! Unfortunately all you'll get is to look like a "chump".

Top pros achieve a delicate balance of timing, power, control, coordination, focus, and endurance with their instinct and feel. They are focusing on the ball and let their instinct work things out, finding the ball as well as possible, and then let power fly. They judge their stroke by its feel.

They have practiced long enough to know what is efficient, what will produce the desired result, and what not.

Most of the top pros today have had a role model when they were kids, not just of conduct, but a player they admired as a performer and his/her strokes. Imitation of top players does give you some of the best technique available. If your admired player is weak in one stroke, you can always copy that particular swing from another top pro.

To sum it up, the best technique is that which lets you feel the most. If you observe the ball all the way, you find it well, and have a reasonable stroke, with a nice feel and a known finish, you need to think of nothing else.

Overall, stay in present time and don't rush. You have more time than you think.

So simplify your tennis, feel the ball in your strings, and avoid thinking of anything else but the ball.

If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.

The first by-product is, you'll focus on the ball better. The second, you'll find there is more time than you think.

Ash_Smith
12-16-2009, 02:29 AM
If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.



Is this what the pro's do? Even to take the ball early?

Also, many of us have asked recently about shots other than groundstrokes, what is the MTM theory regarding the serve or the volley?

Oh, and while you're here do you genuinely believe that the top players don't focus (or havent spent time in the past focusing) on their footwork patterns?

I look forward to your responses.

Wegner
12-16-2009, 03:26 AM
This counting to five is to make players aware that timing is not a rush, but a tiny moment of observation of the ball AFTER the bounce. Try it in practice, you may like it. Of course you drop off the counting once you are playing well.
On the volleys timing is also of the essence. Try the counting in practice, 1 when the other player hits it, up to 5 when you hit the volley. If you don't try it, you will not believe how much time you have. Don't take my word for it. Try it.
On your serve, after you toss the ball, don't you pause for a tiny instant, gathering your power to strike the ball. I bet you don't rush it if you are a good player.
Those tiny pauses are what is the difference of an accomplished player and one that is not quite as good.
And yes, you are right, pros focus on footwork patterns that align the kinetic chain for hours and hours, it then becomes instinctive, and they don't think of it any more. It's more of a feel that you are powerful, efficient, aligned in any effort, even under the most excruciating circumstances.

larry10s
12-16-2009, 04:53 AM
Those tiny pauses are what is the difference of an accomplished player and one that is not quite as good.
And yes, you are right, pros focus on footwork patterns that align the kinetic chain for hours and hours, it then becomes instinctive, and they don't think of it any more. It's more of a feel that you are powerful, efficient, aligned in any effort, even under the most excruciating circumstances.

to me "that tiny pause" is the difference of balance and control when hitting the shot. the split step timing to be under control for the first volley rather than have the ball upon you before you are ready is very important to me.im going to try the count to 5 drill. its intriguing. in all sporte you talk to players after a record breaking performance and they commonly say" everything slowed down" or something to that effect.
until the patterns become instinctive and one does it by"feel", isnt the hours of focus and repetition more focus and repetition and less feel??
oscar, your thoughts please

Bungalo Bill
12-16-2009, 08:16 AM
What is the strength that separates the very top pros from the rest of the field.

Is it technique, focus, mental strength, tactics, or all of the above? You could very well call it a combination of all of those. But in a very special way.

Strangely enough, they are interrelated in one particular aspect. They are all geared to help each other in simplifying the task. The body helps the stroke, the focus helps the mind, the timing helps the power, the tactics are to use your strength.

How could all this happen and not get lost in a maze of data? Very simply. Let's make an absurd example. Lets say you are a well taught player, by conventional teaching standards, and you are in the final of the US Open. You pay attention to your feet position, the path of your backswing, you make sure you prepare early for the shot (you already pictured in your mind where the ball is going to bounce and how), you are also thinking of where you are going to hit the shot to make sure you don't miss it, and secondly, to get your opponent on the run. What would happen? You probably miss the ball entirely!

Well, that is what conventional tennis coaching does to the average player. You have been told that you do all that and one day you'll be a champ! Unfortunately all you'll get is to look like a "chump".

That is an absurd example and an absurd link to the so-called "conventional" tennis. However, if you look at the word "conventional" it can mean "following accepted customs and proprieties." Acceptance is the key word and when you try to paint a picture of us following customs that are accepted but are dated in the 1950's that in and of itself is absurd.

I saw your post on aligning the butt cap to the ball for the slice backhand. That is conventional advice you just provided. It is accepted advice and is commonly used amongst many teaching professionals. Many coaches subscribe to the butt cap towards the ball on groundstrokes especially. This can be taught in a variety of ways through direct instruction or indirect instruction.

So, since you just used conventional wisdom to help a player, can we call you the "Father of Modern Conventional Tennis"? :)

Let's face it Oscar, the forehand has been taught for many many years, yes the same one you teach. Windshield wiper and all. Even the wrap around finish with the elbow pointing to the opponent or some say the butt cap pointing to the opponent.

Good coaches realize that the game of tennis is more than thinking about where your feet are and if you are in the right grip.

For you to provide an absurd unrealistic example, and then link it to the way coaches teach tennis is absurd in itself. The truth is, the clear majority of coaches try to keep things simple as best they can and only offer more information as the student needs it or asks for it. A "maze" of data is pure exaggeration.

Top pros achieve a delicate balance of timing, power, control, coordination, focus, and endurance with their instinct and feel. They are focusing on the ball and let their instinct work things out, finding the ball as well as possible, and then let power fly. They judge their stroke by its feel.

Top pros acheive this through their own hard work and dedication as well. Top pros have drilled and drilled and drilled to become the top level athletes they have become. Top level pros also have something many of us don't have - the right combination of genes.

Feel comes from repetition as the brain learns and understands what muscles it needs to fire at the right time. This produces a certain feeling when it is done right and the brain learns when it has done it right.

A player can learn tennis in a variety of ways and every way has its strengths and weaknesses. Isolating those that don't teach your way is a bit Hitlerish to me.

Building blocks are what matters in tennis. Many coaches simply focus on technique. They may teach a certain level of players and that is it. Many times it is the student themselves that are content with this type of tennis training. They don't want to get in shape and the instructor is stuck just trying to maintain their technique.

Most of the top pros today have had a role model when they were kids, not just of conduct, but a player they admired as a performer and his/her strokes. Imitation of top players does give you some of the best technique available. If your admired player is weak in one stroke, you can always copy that particular swing from another top pro.

What is important is not to copy the pro, but to copy the key fundamentals that are common amongst all pros. That is how instruction is derived. That is how you created your instruction.

To sum it up, the best technique is that which lets you feel the most. If you observe the ball all the way, you find it well, and have a reasonable stroke, with a nice feel and a known finish, you need to think of nothing else.

Come on Oscar. The best technique is what is common amongst advanced to professional players. You first have to understand what to do. Then you have to practice it to develop your ability to make it automatic and move into other areas to improve your game. Feel comes after you understand what to do, how to do it, and practice what it is you need to do. Now I can agree that feel is being developed through all stages of a players tennis journey. Some players will learn quicker in this area than others just as some develop their footwork faster than others. Feel can be developed along with the necessary cognitive and psycho-motor needs that many instructors perform knowingly and unknowingly.

Overall, stay in present time and don't rush. You have more time than you think.

So simplify your tennis, feel the ball in your strings, and avoid thinking of anything else but the ball.

If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.

The first by-product is, you'll focus on the ball better. The second, you'll find there is more time than you think.

That is more complicated than the HIT-BOUNCE-HIT using yoru front foot for timing your forward swing. A player needs to develop three main things:

1. Racquet preparation before the bounce.

2. Their timing step to initiate their forward swing.

3. Their contact with the ball.

4. Their followthrough and recovery.

Many players limited to your kind of count, forget they have to move and recover. Clearing the mind is the last thing a player needs to do.

What a player needs to do is dwell on the right things to help him play better. Mental toughness, development, building blocks, skill development, are all things that take place before a match. When a player is in a match, they need to be mentally prepared to stick to their game plan, make adjustments as the game changes, provide self-diagnosis, find the keys that unlock their opponent's game, and use the skills developed through practice and execute them at game time.

This is common, accepted (conventional), and researched practice for nearly every single sport.

Ash_Smith
12-16-2009, 12:14 PM
Oscar, in your example of the "conventional" pro in the US open final you state that the player could get confused thinking about all the racquet movements and footwork and probably miss the ball - yet later you state that pro's practice their footwork patterns for hours and ours until it becomes natural.

You say in your teaching method players shouldn't think about their feet but just find the ball?

Which is it? Should a player forget his feet and just find the ball or should he "focus on footwork patterns that align the kinetic chain for hours and hours, it then becomes instinctive, and they don't think of it any more" I'm pretty sure you cant have one with out the other? Or does your method only work to a certain point before the player has to actually do some work on the basics?

tennis_balla
12-16-2009, 02:32 PM
So I'm not the only one that noticed that Ash_Smith

TennisCoachFLA
12-16-2009, 02:46 PM
Bungalo Bill, man you are annoying. Yes I have seen some of your posts with good advice. Congrats on that.

But for goodness sakes chill out with blasting everyone's advice, especially Wegner's.

Maybe the ideas are not all his and not all new, I get that. But his format is excellent and the advice works. Not all his advice is right on in my opinion, but lots of it is.

I have talked to Richard Williams 3 times through the years. He told me he used Oscar's early tennis tips to get his daughters started. I also know a boy who just got a full ride to University of Florida. His dad also used Wegner's information for his first 10 years.

Oscar's presentation has been used to produce players who destroy other players trained for years by technical coaches such as yourself.

Deal with it and move on already. Geez who cares who gets credit. His simple approach works with some players, your super analytical approach works with others. Quit ripping apart every word people write.

You are so dang arrogant compared to the famous coaches I have met who have actually produced Grand Slam champs. Get over yourself.

Bungalo Bill
12-16-2009, 03:38 PM
Bungalo Bill, man you are annoying. Yes I have seen some of your posts with good advice. Congrats on that.

Thanks! Why? Because I bring up the truth? Or maybe I don't temper my words before I speak out? What is it? Want me to blow sunshine up your...? I find a lot of people here aren't buying Oscars stuff. Why single me out?

But for goodness sakes chill out with blasting everyone's advice, especially Wegner's.

Am I blasting EVERYONE'S advice? How can I provide good information and yet blast EVERYONE'S advice? Aren't these posts about our opinions on things? Am I not allowed to express my views?

What about the posts were people don't agree with my point of view? Are you there to counsel them? If you don't like what I write, there is an ignore button.

However, if I don't agree with something and can back up my position, maybe you ought to listen.

Maybe the ideas are not all his and not all new, I get that. But his format is excellent and the advice works. Not all his advice is right on in my opinion, but lots of it is.

And? So? You are right! The ideas aren't new.

So it is okay for him to keep saying conventional, use poor examples to promote his product, throw good coaches that don't use his system and label them bad coaches, and am I suppose to buy his Scientology bent when I myself know better?

I have talked to Richard Williams 3 times through the years. He told me he used Oscar's early tennis tips to get his daughters started. I also know a boy who just got a full ride to University of Florida. His dad also used Wegner's information for his first 10 years.

Oscar's presentation has been used to produce players who destroy other players trained for years by technical coaches such as yourself.

:) Really? I think it is only because of a fallout with Macci and you don't know squat about it. If anyone knows Richard Williams, you would know he is the type of person that holds deep grudges.

So, now you are insulting me? Are you saying that all I do is walk on the court and teach a player how to hit a forehand over and over and over again? Even when they know how too? LOL!!!! Geeez, I thought I provided good information? Now I am not? Are you saying it is all wrong then? Obviously I am if students that are taught by people like me get their butts kicked all the time. Isn't that what you are implying? All the time? Nevermind, the hundreds of other matches that MTM'ers get their butts kicked. Is it the Holy Grail you are offering?

What happens if Oscar agrees with my information? What happens if they POST my information on their site, am I still wrong? Am I the guy that walks on the court oblivious to anything else that is going on? Have you read ALL of my posts?

And concerning these boards and the obviouos "box" you put me in, what else am I suppose to do? Tell people to just imagine things? Or should we just close shop and announce "THE TENNIS INSTRUCTION BOARD AT TW IS NOW CLOSED. IF ANYONE DESIRES TO GET FREE TECHNICAL ADVICE OR INSTRUCTION, WE HAVE THIS TO SAY, "YOU ARE A FOOL, TENNIS IS ONLY ABOUT FEEL. CLEAR YOUR MIND OF THOSE IMPURE THOUGHTS FROM THOSE FALSE PROPHETS THAT CALL THEMSELVES INSTRUCTORS, ESPECIALLY THAT TROUBLEMAKER BUNGALOW BILL. SO GET OUT THERE AND BE FREE! TAKE OFF THE CHAINS OF THOSE TASK MASTERS MILKING YOU FOR EVERY PENNY THEY CAN GET AND LIVE!!! FEEL THE BALL! LESSON OVER! BUY MY PRODUCT!"

This is a tennis instruction and tips board. If a player wants their stroke diagnosed, wouldn't Oscar become more technical in his advice? He was on the slice backhand post. Did you say anything there?

Deal with it and move on already. Geez who cares who gets credit. His simple approach works with some players, your super analytical approach works with others. Quit ripping apart every word people write.

You are so dang arrogant compared to the famous coaches I have met who have actually produced Grand Slam champs. Get over yourself.

Haha, I have moved on. It is over. Maybe it is Oscar that should stop saying or using "conventional" and other words against coaches that are just as good as him that don't use his system.

There is no modern, you exaggerated the results of MTM'ers vs. "technical" players, the word conventional is improperly used, MTM supporters can't teach here unless they get Oscar in here, they can't diagnose strokes, they only sell product, provide propoganda, and are using these boards to sell. It is over!!!

Tim Tennis
12-16-2009, 04:28 PM
Hello Bungalo Bill,

Thanks for taking the time and doing battle with these guys.

Ed
Tennis Geometrics

Bungalo Bill
12-16-2009, 04:33 PM
Hello Bungalo Bill,

Thanks for taking the time and doing battle with these guys.

Ed
Tennis Geometrics

You are welcome, but wait, I thought you were tlm? Aren't you tlm?

Tim Tennis
12-16-2009, 04:45 PM
Wait, I thought you were tlm? Aren't you tlm?

Well, when I grew up my nickname was Tim, for some reason, no, I have never posted as tlm and I only post under one screen name, Tim Tennis.

I am sure you will remember me when you think of the Wonder Wedge which we now call the Power V Grip.

Also years ago you suggested a smaller version and I did finally come up with one, the new Power V Grip II, which makes it a lot easier for most people to use.

Anyhow, best regards to you.

Ed
Tennis Geometrics

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com

VaBeachTennis
12-16-2009, 04:47 PM
What is the strength that separates the very top pros from the rest of the field.

Is it technique, focus, mental strength, tactics, or all of the above? You could very well call it a combination of all of those. But in a very special way.

Strangely enough, they are interrelated in one particular aspect. They are all geared to help each other in simplifying the task. The body helps the stroke, the focus helps the mind, the timing helps the power, the tactics are to use your strength.

How could all this happen and not get lost in a maze of data? Very simply. Let's make an absurd example. Lets say you are a well taught player, by conventional teaching standards, and you are in the final of the US Open. You pay attention to your feet position, the path of your backswing, you make sure you prepare early for the shot (you already pictured in your mind where the ball is going to bounce and how), you are also thinking of where you are going to hit the shot to make sure you don't miss it, and secondly, to get your opponent on the run. What would happen? You probably miss the ball entirely!

Well, that is what conventional tennis coaching does to the average player. You have been told that you do all that and one day you'll be a champ! Unfortunately all you'll get is to look like a "chump".

Top pros achieve a delicate balance of timing, power, control, coordination, focus, and endurance with their instinct and feel. They are focusing on the ball and let their instinct work things out, finding the ball as well as possible, and then let power fly. They judge their stroke by its feel.

They have practiced long enough to know what is efficient, what will produce the desired result, and what not.

Most of the top pros today have had a role model when they were kids, not just of conduct, but a player they admired as a performer and his/her strokes. Imitation of top players does give you some of the best technique available. If your admired player is weak in one stroke, you can always copy that particular swing from another top pro.

To sum it up, the best technique is that which lets you feel the most. If you observe the ball all the way, you find it well, and have a reasonable stroke, with a nice feel and a known finish, you need to think of nothing else.

Overall, stay in present time and don't rush. You have more time than you think.

So simplify your tennis, feel the ball in your strings, and avoid thinking of anything else but the ball.

If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.

The first by-product is, you'll focus on the ball better. The second, you'll find there is more time than you think.

Nice post Oscar, but I think that you are possibly leaving one thing out. A person can be trained in "conventional" or "modern" techniques. Once a person trains to a certain level and the techniques become "second nature", they do act instinctively and do think about feeling the ball on the strings.

Take a boxer for example, they learn footwork, a jab, hook, cross, shovel hook, uppercut, strategy, style, etc., they are trained in the basics of those techniques and then executing them becomes second nature and they hardly are thinking about how to throw the punch or the footwork that they were taught. They just do it, but they all started by being drilled on the basics, whether they are "conventional" or "modern".

Bungalo Bill
12-16-2009, 07:41 PM
Well, when I grew up my nickname was Tim, for some reason, no, I have never posted as tlm and I only post under one screen name, Tim Tennis.

I am sure you will remember me when you think of the Wonder Wedge which we now call the Power V Grip.

Also years ago you suggested a smaller version and I did finally come up with one, the new Power V Grip II, which makes it a lot easier for most people to use.

Anyhow, best regards to you.

Ed
Tennis Geometrics

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com

Of course I remember you. I am glad you are posting again. Merry Christmas.

Rambler124
12-16-2009, 08:01 PM
Tennis Balla,

If one is interested in this RPT method or being certified as such how would you recommend they should proceed?

Thanks!

10ispro
12-16-2009, 08:35 PM
Tennis Balla,

If one is interested in this RPT method or being certified as such how would you recommend they should proceed?

Thanks!

Contact Sanchez Casal would be the 1st step. USPTA just held their 2nd Competitive Player's conference at SC-A Naples last weekend. Its a 3 day, all day training. Highlights the majority of the "Ideal" drills. importance of Feeding and being able to "play" with the player.
Also covers Physical testing for dominance like hand, feet,hip,shoulder etc.. dominance to start a training program to build up the weaker side as well as overall strength and flexibility.
entire course was rather in depth. Each coach last year, was given the RPT manual at the conclusion. (i wasnt able to go this year)

One thing thats being left out which separates the SC-A method from others is its a complete approach b/c it also focuses on education. ALL Students, I believe even at the Professional level to be enrolled full time have to take educational classes, (usually at a minimum a language course). They realize that while it may be great to be a champion on a tennis court--majority will not get to the point where they can play for a living.
The full time kids in Naples, have classes from 8-2pm mon-friday. Tennis 215-500 and then an hour of conditioning/fitness/strength training. Dinner then study time.

tennis_balla
12-16-2009, 08:54 PM
Pretty much what 10ispro said.
Just be aware the course I did is not for someone who's never taught tennis before and I was even told that in an email from them before I went there. Its not a beginners program for someone just getting into coaching. The whole academy setup is explained to you (on and off the court), including what 10ispro mentioned the education aspect of the players which is very important to them. If a player is struggling in school they will pull him/her off the courts without hesitation so they can catch up. Having coached at a big tennis academy before in the states myself, I know how easily education gets overlooked.
If you're asking about the normal RPT certification, then talk to Ash_Smith. He should be able to help you out.

10ispro
12-16-2009, 09:16 PM
one other really cool thing about SC-A that I just got an email about is that each full time student enrolled in both Barcelona and Naples will each get their own individual tutor for both on court and off court. So a Private Tennis tutor/Coach, Academic Tutor and Fitness Tutor.

Every student-athlete at the Academia Sánchez-Casal is assigned tutors to provide assistance and counseling on his or her sports and academic development. A special workshop was held at the Academia Sánchez-Casal on October 22nd with the main goal of bringing together the tutors of the three main areas that compose the training offered at the ASC. Tennis coaches, physical trainers and teachers from Schiller International School had the opportunity to get to know each other better and interact in a workshop activity with the aim of working as one same team, with one main goal: provide the best service possible to the student-athletes of the ASC.

Ash_Smith
12-17-2009, 02:07 AM
@ Rambler

Depends on where you live. If you're in the US your best bet would be to do the AS-C Academy course (which is in association with the RPT) down in Naples, FL. If you're in the southern states and can get down to Mexico the RPT Latin America run the certification courses. If you're in Europe than you can do the certification in the UK or in Spain or the AS-C course in Barca.

5263
12-17-2009, 03:42 AM
Tha A "maze" of data is pure exaggeration.

That is more complicated than the HIT-BOUNCE-HIT using yoru front foot for timing your forward swing. A player needs to develop three main things:

1. Racquet preparation before the bounce.

2. Their timing step to initiate their forward swing.

3. Their contact with the ball.

4. Their followthrough and recovery.

Many players limited to your kind of count, forget they have to move and recover. Clearing the mind is the last thing a player needs to do.



Haha, even you can't follow your own maze and say to concentrate on 3 things, then list 4, lol-
and you were trying to keep it simple, then got lost.
Had to get one more thing on the list, lol.

How would you know if MTM players forget to recover & move, much less due to counting?? You have no experience with this.
Well at least you realize how conventional you are, as that is an improvement.

Ash_Smith
12-17-2009, 05:33 AM
Whether you agree with BB or not he has at least offered countless tips to many on this forum based on his experiences of being a tennis pro.

What have you brought to the party - except to ignore several questions posed directly to you recently, or to take the **** out of other posters.

drakulie
12-17-2009, 06:16 AM
Haha, even you can't follow your own maze and say to concentrate on 3 things, then list 4, lol-
and you were trying to keep it simple, then got lost.
Had to get one more thing on the list, lol.

How would you know if MTM players forget to recover & move, much less due to counting?? You have no experience with this.
Well at least you realize how conventional you are, as that is an improvement.


10th Request

Please provide an example of a "revolutionary" and "modern" way in which MTM teaches a volley.

Thanks.

drakulie
12-17-2009, 06:22 AM
What is the strength that separates the very top pros from the rest of the field.

Is it technique, focus, mental strength, tactics, or all of the above? You could very well call it a combination of all of those. But in a very special way.

Strangely enough, they are interrelated in one particular aspect. They are all geared to help each other in simplifying the task. The body helps the stroke, the focus helps the mind, the timing helps the power, the tactics are to use your strength.

How could all this happen and not get lost in a maze of data? Very simply. Let's make an absurd example. Lets say you are a well taught player, by conventional teaching standards, and you are in the final of the US Open. You pay attention to your feet position, the path of your backswing, you make sure you prepare early for the shot (you already pictured in your mind where the ball is going to bounce and how), you are also thinking of where you are going to hit the shot to make sure you don't miss it, and secondly, to get your opponent on the run. What would happen? You probably miss the ball entirely!

Well, that is what conventional tennis coaching does to the average player. You have been told that you do all that and one day you'll be a champ! Unfortunately all you'll get is to look like a "chump".

Top pros achieve a delicate balance of timing, power, control, coordination, focus, and endurance with their instinct and feel. They are focusing on the ball and let their instinct work things out, finding the ball as well as possible, and then let power fly. They judge their stroke by its feel.

They have practiced long enough to know what is efficient, what will produce the desired result, and what not.

Most of the top pros today have had a role model when they were kids, not just of conduct, but a player they admired as a performer and his/her strokes. Imitation of top players does give you some of the best technique available. If your admired player is weak in one stroke, you can always copy that particular swing from another top pro.

To sum it up, the best technique is that which lets you feel the most. If you observe the ball all the way, you find it well, and have a reasonable stroke, with a nice feel and a known finish, you need to think of nothing else.

Overall, stay in present time and don't rush. You have more time than you think.

So simplify your tennis, feel the ball in your strings, and avoid thinking of anything else but the ball.

If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.

The first by-product is, you'll focus on the ball better. The second, you'll find there is more time than you think.


what a load of horse urine.

You need to focus on discontinuing the practice of hitting off your front foot during teaching lessons, before calling the thousands of former pro champions, and current champions "chumps".

MichaelChang
12-17-2009, 07:04 AM
If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.


I am not a beginner and I currently do not count before hitting. I can try yours but I am confused: just how fast do you count the 1,2,3,4,5, I mean I can also count slower and only count 1,2,3 and hit. Also if my opponent hits a fast paced ball I can imagine I have to count faster?

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:05 AM
Hey MTM guys are back here, just in time for the holidays! What a treat. I need to start reading this thread.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:22 AM
Let's make an absurd example. Lets say you are a well taught player, by conventional teaching standards, and you are in the final of the US Open. You pay attention to your feet position, the path of your backswing, you make sure you prepare early for the shot (you already pictured in your mind where the ball is going to bounce and how), you are also thinking of where you are going to hit the shot to make sure you don't miss it, and secondly, to get your opponent on the run. What would happen? You probably miss the ball entirely!


That is why only modern tennis coached players win the USO final, and the rest of the losers only reach the final LOL.

Federer must have paid so much attention to the details and that is why he lost to Del Potro.

Why do you give absurd examples? What is the highest level that you have played at, that you can give imaginary examples of what happens in the USO final?

You need to separate rhetoric from logic. Weaving long imaginary stories does not prove anything. You create your own strawman (the loser who "just" makes it to the USO final and misses the ball entirely because he is coached by conventional methods) and your own hero (presumably the winner who is coached by modern methods discovered by you a mere 30 years ago) and come to your own conclusions about an imaginary war which no one is fighting any more.

Why don't you listen to what is being said, instead of talking as if others don't exist? Several things you wrote have been proven to be completely wrong, based on video evidence. Pros have very early takeback and preparation, they don't count 1 to 5, wait till they panic, and then decide. It works only at low club levels. Pros are hitting all over the sweetspot, not necessarily in the lower half. "Modern sweetspots" don't extend to cover all the mains and cross. Your coaching video showing you and your student putting the right foot forward and then hitting the forehand is not what the pros are doing. And above all, people have moved on a long time ago and what may have been new to some people at one time is not an issue any more. I can still find a few people who believe students who use calculators instead of slide rules don't learn mathematics, but it is not a sufficient cause to start a modern teaching system which keeps saying calculators are useful. The time is long past.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:28 AM
If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.


There is no difference between this and the old advice of "bounce hit bounce hit" which I hear coaches screaming all day.

The crux is how fast is 1,2,3,4 supposed to be counted? Aloud? In the head? How much pause between them? This is what Kathy said in her article - your statements can never be proven wrong because you never specify the circumstances exactly. Anyone can do it with a speed that appeals to him, you get to pick the ones who win to quote as examples, and you can then claim it was due to their counting.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:32 AM
to me "that tiny pause" is the difference of balance and control when hitting the shot. the split step timing to be under control for the first volley rather than have the ball upon you before you are ready is very important to me.im going to try the count to 5 drill. its intriguing. in all sporte you talk to players after a record breaking performance and they commonly say" everything slowed down" or something to that effect.
until the patterns become instinctive and one does it by"feel", isnt the hours of focus and repetition more focus and repetition and less feel??
oscar, your thoughts please

They also say the ball looked like a basketball that day and they could do nothing wrong. It is not due to any counting, but their superior training, talent, eyesight, fitness etc which click together at certain times. If it was due to counting, weren't they also counting when they did not have record-breaking performances? Isn't Federer also counting when he shanks the ball or loses to Nadal or Del Potro?

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:37 AM
I am not a beginner and I currently do not count before hitting. I can try yours but I am confused: just how fast do you count the 1,2,3,4,5, I mean I can also count slower and only count 1,2,3 and hit. Also if my opponent hits a fast paced ball I can imagine I have to count faster?

LOL you are being scientific here. That will not do. Even the classic DMV suggestion of counting till 5 to place yourself behind the car in front of you (and we know all of us follow that) specifies 1-Mississipi 2-Mississipi etc to at least attempt to quantify it. With Oscar it could be 12345, 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5 - pick the guy who wins tournaments and announce it was due to his counting.

LOL the gaps got edited out. Try "quoting" my post - there were supposed to be variable lengths of white spaces between the numbers

drakulie
12-17-2009, 07:38 AM
Great stuff, suresh. Let's see how the cult dodges everything you just stated.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:46 AM
Oscar is always right (by definition):



http://od-tennis.blogspot.com/2007/04/tennis-week-interview-with-oscar-wegner.html


"Hitting the ball early is a concept that needs to be debunked, even at the highest level of the game," Wegner writes in his book "Play Better Tennis In Two Hours". "I have seen too many players experience off days and not know exactly why. It is one thing to advance on the court to cut your opponent's time or to hit on the rise, putting pressure on your opponent, but it is another thing to start the stroke earlier than needed."


Look how the third sentence contradicts the first. Which one are we to go by? Is he debunking the concept of "hitting the ball early" or of "starting the stroke earlier than needed"?

If it's the latter, does he mean the whole stroke? Or just the the forward swing?

You can't prove a person right or wrong when you can't nail down what he's talking about. Now, this is quoting from a published book, so presumably this isn't mere misspeaking on Oscar's part. So, is he deliberately being ambiguous to make his idea sound controversial, or what? What is he talking about? "Hitting the ball early" or "beginning the swing early"?

One minute it's one thing, the next minute it's the other = constantly shifting ground.

drakulie
12-17-2009, 07:49 AM
MTM= Modern Tennis Madness. :)

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:53 AM
Great stuff, suresh. Let's see how the cult dodges everything you just stated.

We just need the "modern sweetspot" diagram back again and we are all set in this thread! Just sit back and enjoy.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 07:57 AM
what a load of horse urine.

You need to focus on discontinuing the practice of hitting off your front foot during teaching lessons, before calling the thousands of former pro champions, and current champions "chumps".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVH3UAWTnKE

MichaelChang
12-17-2009, 08:03 AM
LOL you are being scientific here. That will not do. Even the classic DMV suggestion of counting till 5 to place yourself behind the car in front of you (and we know all of us follow that) specifies 1-Mississipi 2-Mississipi etc to at least attempt to quantify it. With Oscar it could be 12345, 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5 - pick the guy who wins tournaments and announce it was due to his counting.

LOL the gaps got edited out. Try "quoting" my post - there were supposed to be variable lengths of white spaces between the numbers

I do not count as I think it can create more margin for error, based on the different pace of the incoming balls. My rule of thumb has been (on hardcourts) when the ball bounce, my backswing should be almost done and ready to hit.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 08:04 AM
MTM= Modern Tennis Madness. :)

I prefer my own modern tennis system that I am developing (MTS), which integrates body, mind and soul.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 08:08 AM
I do not count as I think it can create more margin for error, based on the different pace of the incoming balls. My rule of thumb has been (on hardcourts) when the ball bounce, my backswing should be almost done and ready to hit.

And I have been advised by a Div 2 player that it should be even earlier (when the ball is at the net) and she actually demonstrated that by playing points with me. I think not doing such things is the basis of the problem that I listed in another thread yesterday (problem playing against a modern tennis junior player). I think the problem with modern tennis is that it encourages topspin on one side, and then handicaps you by making you count while returning on the other LOL. It will be fun to watch two modern tennis juniors practise their swings on either side of the drakulie dual-sided ironing topspin board.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 08:19 AM
Oscar is always right (by definition):



http://od-tennis.blogspot.com/2007/04/tennis-week-interview-with-oscar-wegner.html


"Hitting the ball early is a concept that needs to be debunked, even at the highest level of the game," Wegner writes in his book "Play Better Tennis In Two Hours". "I have seen too many players experience off days and not know exactly why. It is one thing to advance on the court to cut your opponent's time or to hit on the rise, putting pressure on your opponent, but it is another thing to start the stroke earlier than needed."

Yes, many have gone around and around with Oscar regarding this area. People that are way more grounded in tennis instruction, analysis, fundamentals, etc...than I am have dumped a boat load of video evidence clearly supporting that early preparation is happening and should happen.

Oscar has taken many coaching aids or sayings and literalized them without much care about why a coach says "hit early". Often he manipulates things just enough to support his teaching methods and then turns around and blames coaches that don't use his method for teaching something that he has twsited the meaning on.

Hitting early, meet the ball in front, hit in front of you, are all concepts to help a player hit on-time. The majority of these concepts are geared for players that are often hitting late. They are also sayings that are used with grips that require the ball to be hit in front of the body plane, especially for strokes such as the onehanded backhand. However, Oscar won't mention that.

Look how the third sentence contradicts the first. Which one are we to go by? Is he debunking the concept of "hitting the ball early" or of "starting the stroke earlier than needed"?

If it's the latter, does he mean the whole stroke? Or just the the forward swing?

This ties into the concept of early preparation which is deinfed by the turning of the shoulder to bring the racquet back and situating the grip. After clear video evidence, Oscar will point to the exception to support his stubborness and admit that the "conventional" coaches are right and he is wrong.

Now, he is changing his tune or softening it. I am thinking he is waiting to let it settle before he rewords it and then claims it was a matter of a "play on words" between the conventional coaches and himself.

It is pretty obvious that a player should not execute his forward swing too soon or his timing will be off. I guess this is sort of a no-brainer to me and many other players. So, much so that I think Oscar is just trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill through word manipulation.

Meeting the ball in front, hitting early are simply concepts that help players that hit late to meet the ball on time better.

Also, to blame a "many" players off days on this on thing is just crazy jibberish. There could be a ton of reasons why a player has an off day. I would think that a player that swings too soon would realize after 50 whiffs that he is doing something wrong and make a minor adjustment to hit later. Duh?

You can't prove a person right or wrong when you can't nail down what he's talking about. Now, this is quoting from a published book, so presumably this isn't mere misspeaking on Oscar's part. So, is he deliberately being ambiguous to make his idea sound controversial, or what? What is he talking about? "Hitting the ball early" or "beginning the swing early"?

One minute it's one thing, the next minute it's the other = constantly shifting ground.

Totally agree.

The other thing that is contradictory is how Oscar promotes his "feel" thing. Oscar is more talking about using the human's ability to make the necessary discoveries and adjustments on their own without "a maze of details" (his own words). Well, the saying "hit early" is not a whole lot of detail.

Wouldn't you think that if the "many" players Oscar is talking about having off days would "discover" on their own when they should swing and meet the ball after so much failure? Wouldn't they learn to "feel" the ball - even when they flubbed it up?

I would think Oscar would applaud the lack of detail and the emphasis placed more on the player to discover for themselves when they should hit the ball wouldn't you?

sureshs
12-17-2009, 08:43 AM
Oscar is a hit-and-run operator. Now he will no longer post on this thread and reply to the challenges. Then he will suddenly show up on another thread with a long post, hoping that this thread is forgotten by then.

julian
12-17-2009, 08:45 AM
Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4202961#post4202961
post #38.
Thank you

MichaelChang
12-17-2009, 08:49 AM
And I have been advised by a Div 2 player that it should be even earlier (when the ball is at the net)

Yes you need to get to the trajectory line where the ball is coming. I think Oscar is not debating that. However he did say "don't take the racket back" until the ball bounce or something like that. which I think is not going to work on a hard court (fast).

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 08:57 AM
To sum it up, the best technique is that which lets you feel the most. If you observe the ball all the way, you find it well, and have a reasonable stroke, with a nice feel and a known finish, you need to think of nothing else.

Overall, stay in present time and don't rush. You have more time than you think.

So simplify your tennis, feel the ball in your strings, and avoid thinking of anything else but the ball.

If you have trouble clearing your mind, count to five, 1 at the bounce, the 2, 3, 4, a little pause, and then hit at 5.

The first by-product is, you'll focus on the ball better. The second, you'll find there is more time than you think.

Oscar would you say your teaching methods, DVD's, and instruction are based and influenced by Dianetics and Scientology? I find your information running parallel with its goals and ambitions. In particular, I find it interesting how you construct words and how they match this:

In Dianetics and Scientology, Clear is stated to be a condition in which a person is free of the unwanted influence of engrams, unwanted emotions or painful traumas which are not readily available to the awareness of present time. A person in this condition, then referred to as a "Clear", would be a person cleared of those negative influences. Such a person is said to be "at cause over" (in control of) their "mental energy" (their thoughts), and able to think clearly even when faced with the very situation which in earlier times caused them grave difficulty. Dianetics states that a person's awareness is influenced by the stimulus-response of the reative mind. Achieving the state of Clear means a person has overcome the reactive mind and is in complete control of his analytical mind. According to Hubbard:

A Clear is a being who no longer has his own reactive mind, and therefore suffers none of the ill effects the reactive mind can cause. The Clear has no engrams which, when restimulated, throw out the correctness of his computations by entering hidden and false data.

Would you say that the conventional tennis coaches such as me have negative control over players minds? Zapping their mental energy not allowing them to think clearly? Or what about this?

The State of Clear
In Dianetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics:_The_Modern_Science_of_Mental_Health), L. Ron Hubbard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard), founder of Scientology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology), states that becoming Clear strengthens a person's native individuality and creativity and a Clear is free with his emotions. In The State Of Clear a Clear is defined as "a being who no longer has his own reactive mind, and therefore suffers none of the ill effects the reactive mind can cause."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_(Scientology)#cite_note-1)


Hubbard states that merely knowing what the cognition is does not have a effect of realising it for oneself:Now, we've known for a long time that a thetan made up his own bank (reactive mind), but telling him so didn't get him over it. And we've just found out again that telling him so didn't get him over it, too. Even when he's almost Clear. We say, "Hey, you're mocking it up," and he'd say, "Hey, am I mocking it up? Yeah, I am mocking it up." And he'll go Clear — pshew! — and he goes off that bottom step that isn't there, you know? And he's got to go back on and finish it up the way he should. It's got to be his cognition.So if I clear my mind and become more of what you say I should become are you helping me reach this state?

Steps after Clear
After attaining the state of Clear, a person may go on to study the Operating Thetan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan) levels, in which Scientology materials assert the ability to operate outside the body via "exteriorization" becomes commonplace.


Beyond that comes "Cleared Theta Clear", which Hubbard describes this way:"A thetan who is completely rehabilitated and can do everything a thetan should do, such as move MEST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEST_(Scientology)) and control others from a distance, or create his own universe; a person who is able to create his own universe or, living in the MEST universe is able to create illusions perceivable by others at will, to handle MEST universe objects without mechanical means and to have and feel no need of bodies or even the MEST universe to keep himself and his friends interested in existence". [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_(Scientology)#cite_note-3)Heavy stuff man!!! Reminds of the stuff used to like to read when I was wasted in my college days!!

Seriously, is it the MEST I am after? I want to be rehabilitated because I want to be able to mind control my wife. She has a decisive advantage over me and if this is the stuff I need, I am all in. :)

sureshs
12-17-2009, 09:02 AM
Yes you need to get to the trajectory line where the ball is coming. I think Oscar is not debating that. However he did say "don't take the racket back" until the ball bounce or something like that. which I think is not going to work on a hard court (fast).

Nor on a clay court. Videos show Nadal's racquet way back before the ball bounces. So it is not true even for "Spanish tennis" with "modern topspin."

Oscar's advice is for a small window of skill levels where students are learning the game and tend to rush their shots, get frustrated, and quit. A coach who makes them relax, gets them to slow down and count, and deemphasizes footwork may be easier for these folks to make the transition. After that, there is no shortcut which can make tennis easier than what it is. Footwork does not come naturally, it is not the same as a child learning to walk as he claims. A child learning to walk is following in the tradition of millions of years of evolution, but no animal had to play tennis in order to survive and reproduce.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 09:16 AM
OK now I understand. You are using large fonts to help people "find" the words LOL.

:) in all fairness, I would like to get to the bottom of this for my own information. Perhaps, we should ask the moderator to move some of these posts to another board. I would like to continue this and have Oscar answer my concerns and questions.

mikro112
12-17-2009, 09:21 AM
:) in all fairness, I would like to get to the bottom of this for my own information. Perhaps, we should ask the moderator to move some of these posts to another board. I would like to continue this and have Oscar answer my concerns and questions.

That was my intention. You are right that most of the stuff about this Spanish Model has been said, but that shouldn't be a justification for several users here (my post was not meant only in your direction!!) to talk about completely different stuff in this thread. You guys should have created a new thread to talk about all the other stuff there. That's how a forum usually works (if you have active mods).

PS: I always enjoy your posts, so don't understand my post as an attack in your direction!

mikro112
12-17-2009, 09:24 AM
OK now I understand. You are using large fonts to help people "find" the words LOL.

It already was the largest font, so no I can't help you with your request for a bigger font! Sorry!

Btw, the big font helped to "clear one's mind". :D

sureshs
12-17-2009, 09:26 AM
It already was the largest font, so no I can't help you with your request for a bigger font! Sorry!

Btw, the big font helped to "clear one's mind". :D

That will certainly help. After half an hour of tennis, I am usually thinking about what's for dinner.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 10:21 AM
That was my intention. You are right that most of the stuff about this Spanish Model has been said, but that shouldn't be a justification for several users here (my post was not meant only in your direction!!) to talk about completely different stuff in this thread. You guys should have created a new thread to talk about all the other stuff there. That's how a forum usually works (if you have active mods).

PS: I always enjoy your posts, so don't understand my post as an attack in your direction!

Many threads here take a life of its own. It is the nature of these boards, Some go in tangents, others digress into nothing. Still others expand on areas that people have had questions on but didn't know how to ask the question. Sometimes several conversations could be going on at the same time. Sort of like being at a party.

I posted something from my notebook on the slice backhand. I also qualified it and it went off into a life of its own.

Many times people post, get their question answered and in comes a post with a bent or a twist, and so long as the question has been answered, threads can dive deeper in another direction.

Don't know how you are going to manage every thread though and keep them on track to the orginal question. If you can't and you police only a few, then you can be viewed as singling people out which is not good as well. Your use of bold large letters was quite offensive and offtrack as well.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 10:30 AM
That was my intention. You are right that most of the stuff about this Spanish Model has been said, but that shouldn't be a justification for several users here (my post was not meant only in your direction!!) to talk about completely different stuff in this thread. You guys should have created a new thread to talk about all the other stuff there. That's how a forum usually works (if you have active mods).

PS: I always enjoy your posts, so don't understand my post as an attack in your direction!

Post #68 started this other line of discussion. Several of us felt we needed to dig deeper and "find" out what it really said.

mikro112
12-17-2009, 10:45 AM
Many threads here take a life of its own. It is the nature of these boards, Some go in tangents, others digress into nothing. Still others expand on areas that people have had questions on but didn't know how to ask the question. Sometimes several conversations could be going on at the same time. Sort of like being at a party.

I posted something from my notebook on the slice backhand. I also qualified it and it went off into a life of its own.

Many times people post, get their question answered and in comes a post with a bent or a twist, and so long as the question has been answered, threads can dive deeper in another direction.

Don't know how you are going to manage every thread though and keep them on track to the orginal question. If you can't and you police only a few, then you can be viewed as singling people out which is not good as well. Your use of bold large letters was quite offensive and offtrack as well.
I understand where you're coming from, but posting and talking about several topics in one thread makes it hard for everybody else, who is just interested in for example the Spanish model, to go through all new posts only to see that none of the (e.g.) 40 new posts contain any information about it. That's a waste of time and effort. And it happened to me many times now in this thread. Therefore, it would be much more efficient for everybody (you guys, who want to discuss another topic resulting from this one and the others, who are interested in the original idea of this thread) if you guys had started a new thread to talk about that other method. In that other thread you could have included a link to this thread so that all people know how your discussion started.

I apologize if you felt that my large-font post was offensive. It wasn't meant offensive. I did it to "encourage" you guys to start a new thread about the other topic.

Another problem of discussing several topics in one is that it takes way more time to find something via the board search than it would take if you had all topics separated neatly in different threads. ;)

Post #68 started this other line of discussion. Several of us felt we needed to dig deeper and "find" out what it really said.
Please look at what I wrote my answer to BB in this post also. If the discussion started that means, there were almost 60 new posts, from which the vast majority was about the Wegner stuff. That could have easily been in a new thread, so that this one remains clean.

I'm not sure how familiar you guys are with forum moderations, but I've done the Mod/Admin job now on a couple large forums (20,000+ members each) and we always prevented thread-hijacking like it's going on here on TT all the time. The problem on TT simply is the amount of moderators, well the lack thereof. But that should be discussed somewhere else. Another problem I see here is that PMs are not allowed to discuss stuff like this.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 11:21 AM
I understand where you're coming from, but posting and talking about several topics in one thread makes it hard for everybody else

I dont buy that. If that was the case, nearly every thread woudl be difficult to read. The answers were given, even links were provided for more research and learning. Threads will take a life of its own and I wish you luck in trying to control that.

who is just interested in for example the Spanish model, to go through all new posts only to see that none of the (e.g.) 40 new posts contain any information about it. That's a waste of time and effort.

To you maybe. However, are you perfect at it? Are all your posts on topic and actually answer the question?

I apologize if you felt that my large-font post was offensive. It wasn't meant offensive. I did it to "encourage" you guys to start a new thread about the other topic.

hahaha, encourage?! Funny way to encourage. Why not just ask?

Another problem of discussing several topics in one is that it takes way more time to find something via the board search than it would take if you had all topics separated neatly in different threads. ;)

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. People do have a scroll button and can use scanning to find the information they need. However, each one of these threads are equivalent to a conversation taking place. Conversations can go off in another direction. People can also be in the same thread talking about other things that posters brought up. Once the question has been answered I think it is a waste of time saying the same old thing over and over again. Why not talk about something else if the quesiton has been answered. ;)

Please look at what I wrote my answer to BB in this post also. If the discussion started that means, there were almost 60 new posts, from which the vast majority was about the Wegner stuff. That could have easily been in a new thread, so that this one remains clean.

And? So I guess you are from now on going to set the exampe for all of us to only write to the first post in the thread and nothing else. Right? Good luck.

I'm not sure how familiar you guys are with forum moderations, but I've done the Mod/Admin job now on a couple large forums (20,000+ members each) and we always prevented thread-hijacking like it's going on here on TT all the time. The problem on TT simply is the amount of moderators, well the lack thereof. But that should be discussed somewhere else. Another problem I see here is that PMs are not allowed to discuss stuff like this.

Glad you aren't the moderator. Thread hijacking is a weird term. It is like nobody in the confines can do anything else without someone like you micromanaging everything. Many times a post is put up and people want clarification. That is perfectly acceptable. There are no policies on thread-hijacking. Except from those that abuse their power and think they are here to save the internet world.

Hahaha, I was about to say that even this conversation jas nothing to do with the original topic. So you do it too. ;)

Xenakis
12-17-2009, 11:37 AM
As much as Wegner's system may or may not deserve criticism, I do agree about this being an RPT thread. Interesting stuff and deserves more attention/discussion. Probably better to stay on topic or start a new thread.

My two pence.

mikro112
12-17-2009, 11:59 AM
Glad you aren't the moderator. Thread hijacking is a weird term. It is like nobody in the confines can do anything else without someone like you micromanaging everything. Many times a post is put up and people want clarification. That is perfectly acceptable. There are no policies on thread-hijacking. Except from those that abuse their power and think they are here to save the internet world.

Hahaha, I was about to say that even this conversation jas nothing to do with the original topic. So you do it too. ;)
You're right and because of that this is my last post in this thread about thread-hijacking. If you like or don't like the term, that's the one that is used most of the time in internet forums. I'll therefore politely ask you to open a new thread about this and continue the discussion there. Maybe ask a moderator to move the posts from this thread to a new one. With vBulletin, it takes maybe a minute or so.

People, who seek clarification should open a new thread. I also don't want to have my way implemented here, because I rarely post here. That's an exception, you know, because usually I have 1,000+ posts in all forums where I'm active. But this forum here is moderated that badly (because there's only one moderator) that I don't bother with posting a lot because it takes too much time to actually have a conversation due to the ongoing thread-hijacking. This forum is also the only one I know where nothing is done against thread-hijacking! ;) In the future, I'll just continue to read your and some other person's interesting posts, because then I can be assured that there is not a lot of trolling and spamming.

Take care!

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 12:04 PM
You're right and because of that this is my last post in this thread about thread-hijacking. If you like or don't like the term, that's the one that is used most of the time in internet forums. I'll therefore politely ask you to open a new thread about this and continue the discussion there. Maybe ask a moderator to move the posts from this thread to a new one. With vBulletin, it takes maybe a minute or so.

People, who seek clarification should open a new thread. I also don't want to have my way implemented here, because I rarely post here. That's an exception, you know, because usually I have 1,000+ posts in all forums where I'm active. But this forum here is moderated that badly (because there's only one moderator) that I don't bother with posting a lot because it takes too much time to actually have a conversation due to the ongoing thread-hijacking. This forum is also the only one I know where nothing is done against thread-hijacking! ;) In the future, I'll just continue to read your and some other person's interesting posts, because then I can be assured that there is not a lot of trolling and spamming.

Take care!

Hahaha, yeah okay. Maybe you ought to open a new thread on this topic.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 12:06 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but posting and talking about several topics in one thread makes it hard for everybody else, who is just interested in for example the Spanish model, to go through all new posts only to see that none of the (e.g.) 40 new posts contain any information about it. That's a waste of time and effort.

All it means is that all that had to be said on one narrow topic is over, nobody had anything to say, and a new direction has started based on post #68, which to you seems to have nothing to do with Spanish tennis. But if you followed other threads, you will see that the author of #68 has claimed to have influenced Spanish tennis at one time. So even with a narrow view, we are still somewhat on topic.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 12:09 PM
All it means is that all that had to be said on one narrow topic is over, nobody had anything to say, and a new direction has started based on post #68, which to you seems to have nothing to do with Spanish tennis. But if you followed other threads, you will see that the author of #68 has claimed to have influenced Spanish tennis at one time. So even with a narrow view, we are still somewhat on topic.

Exactly the point. You can't just myopically just stay within a box. People say things in other threads that have a link to another thread. When the topic has been answered repeatedly, and a link has been established, as in Oscar somehow having an influence in RPT, then that is bound to start another conversation within a conversation.

I think this guy writes about how he wants the board to be rather than accepting how it works in reality.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Mods should let things evolve naturally, without imposing themselves. That is why the current mod(s) are good. They should step in only when things are completely off-topic or some seriously bad stuff is going on. This is not a reviewed forum like Wikipedia and I feel some of the best stuff comes up in the challenges here. That is why other tennis boards have died out. It is easy to have only posts about how great Federer or Nadal is, but the real info comes out only when some guy posts something he does not like about their technique and people jump on him.

This particular case is unique and several threads questioning certain claims have been deleted, so we had no option but to post here again. But it is getting tiring dealing with hit-and-run operators who don't respond. I don't have the energy to go thru it again.

Ash_Smith
12-17-2009, 12:23 PM
I said this in another thread and got a warning for my trouble from a mod - topics, like conversations, meander through and around the ideas presented within them - each idea leading to a new one and so on. Thats's how conversation works.

However, I think perhaps this thread has now go so far off topic it may need to be 'pruned' somewhat! The last two pages are mostly about this discussion about staying on topic (which I am aware I am now adding to :) ) and some ****ging of MTM.

In terms of Oscar influencing RPT thinking, there's not much of a link - certainly not an intentional one anyway. The RPT system is much fuller in detail and progression to simply find the balll and hit it - as you'll have seen in the vids Balla posted at the beginning.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 01:52 PM
I said this in another thread and got a warning for my trouble from a mod - topics, like conversations, meander through and around the ideas presented within them - each idea leading to a new one and so on. Thats's how conversation works.

However, I think perhaps this thread has now go so far off topic it may need to be 'pruned' somewhat! The last two pages are mostly about this discussion about staying on topic (which I am aware I am now adding to :) ) and some ****ging of MTM.

In terms of Oscar influencing RPT thinking, there's not much of a link - certainly not an intentional one anyway. The RPT system is much fuller in detail and progression to simply find the balll and hit it - as you'll have seen in the vids Balla posted at the beginning.

Good post. I noticed when a post has a lot of responses and answers to the orginal question from the OP, at some point it loses steam. Then it sort of fragments into another conversation all together that stemmed from a disagreement or a comment that people want to either learn more about or debate.

I don't anything wrong with that so long as the question was answered as thorough as possible which it has here. Personally, I don't think there is much to add here since a lot of information is available.

Wegner
12-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Nice post Oscar, but I think that you are possibly leaving one thing out. A person can be trained in "conventional" or "modern" techniques. Once a person trains to a certain level and the techniques become "second nature", they do act instinctively and do think about feeling the ball on the strings.

Take a boxer for example, they learn footwork, a jab, hook, cross, shovel hook, uppercut, strategy, style, etc., they are trained in the basics of those techniques and then executing them becomes second nature and they hardly are thinking about how to throw the punch or the footwork that they were taught. They just do it, but they all started by being drilled on the basics, whether they are "conventional" or "modern".

You are absolutely right, VaBeachTennis; what I contend is only that some techniques are more effficient ways of playing and others are more difficult to master. Of course someone who has perfected their own preferred way becomes a master at it with enough practice, at least in his own estimation. To be a top pro, though, you need to have a master's efficiency. And anyone can benefit of copying how, in this regard, the top pros play. In essence, the more you simplify things, the better you can become.

Wegner
12-17-2009, 02:20 PM
Good post. I noticed when a post has a lot of responses and answers to the orginal question from the OP, at some point it loses steam. Then it sort of fragments into another conversation all together that stemmed from a disagreement or a comment that people want to either learn more about or debate.

I don't anything wrong with that so long as the question was answered as thorough as possible which it has here. Personally, I don't think there is much to add here since a lot of information is available.

BB, I see you like to post some quotes by L. Ron Hubbard, even though those were very far from the subject of the Sanchez/Casal RPT Spanish Training Model. Here is something Hubbard said too: "constructive ideas are individual and seldom get broad agreement in a human group". Could that apply to me and the very subject of tennis? Could it be that you are trying to destroy something constructive because it differs from your own viewpoint? Please write your response when you are in a good state of mind, not like in college.

Best regards and wishes, and a very Merry Christmas and New Year.
Oscar Wegner, TennisTeacher.com
ps. I use my own name in these threads. Could you disclose who you are as well? This way I can send you a Christmas card.

sureshs
12-17-2009, 02:36 PM
In essence, the more you simplify things, the better you can become.

Sounds good and is repeated by many people, but it is wrong. As Einstein said, "Keep it simple. As simple as possible but no simpler." Some problems have a simple solution. Some don't. Some don't have a solution at all, within the capacity of someone to understand them. The idea that there is a simple solution to economic, social, scientific, and political issues is wrong. It is a way to brainwash people and to promote escapism.

Xenakis
12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
Sounds good and is repeated by many people, but it is wrong. As Einstein said, "Keep it simple. As simple as possible but no simpler." Some problems have a simple solution. Some don't. Some don't have a solution at all, within the capacity of someone to understand them. The idea that there is a simple solution to economic, social, scientific, and political issues is wrong. It is a way to brainwash people and to promote escapism.

With all due respect Sureshs I think Wegner is talking about tennis. In which case his comments make more sense.

It might be a good idea if you and some others here took a somewhat less captious approach to discussion regarding Wegner's ideas or this thread will get out of control and off topic again (i.e not about RPT.)

Perhaps start a new thread?.

Called 'Ask Oscar?'.

bhupaes
12-17-2009, 03:02 PM
Great idea, Xenakis. Could you be so kind as to start such a thread?

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 03:19 PM
With all due respect Sureshs I think Wegner is talking about tennis. In which case his comments make more sense.

It might be a good idea if you and some others here took a somewhat less captious approach to discussion regarding Wegner's ideas or this thread will get out of control and off topic again (i.e not about RPT.)

Perhaps start a new thread?.

Called 'Ask Oscar?'.

I dont think that will ever happen. If Oscar and his followers are allowed to freely make claims that are questionable, promote their product against TW policy either directly or indirectly, provide examples that make other coaches that don't use their system as old, out-dated, or "conventional", and is allowed to take credit for things I know is not true, or spin things in such a way where he always looks favorable in any discussion, people here can respond whether they agree or not.

I read too. I also provide a lot of instruction and tips on these boards. If I don't agree with something I am not going to create new thread for it. You don't and neither does anyone else.

Had Oscar stuck with the emphasis of this thread and did not bring in his exaggerated example and compared his methods to "conventional" methods probably none of this would have happened. However, that is not to say it wouldn't happen anywhere else.

Currently, it seems every thread I read or am involved with is tainted somehow and in someway with MTM or that Oscar had something to do with it. I not only find it insulting but I also find it false and misleading.

Since I am well versed in tennis and desire that good information is shared on these boards, and because I have been here for years, I can provide my opinion whether it turns into a debate or not.

Just as you want to read your things, I want to read mine.

I think it is unrealistic to tell others they can't say anything unless it is specific to this thread. It just doesn't happen that way for the last 6 years I have been here. It is unreasonable and unrealistic.

Now, I do agree that people can ask that it be split into another thread but to say that a thread shouldn't dicsuss anything else but what the #1 post indicates is farfetched.

Everyone here on these boards takes a thread off topic including you by posting your comment above. If you have a question on RPT, then ask it. That is the best way to get the thread back on topic.

5263
12-17-2009, 03:34 PM
We just need the "modern sweetspot" diagram back again and we are all set in this thread! Just sit back and enjoy.

Or you could practice hard and learn to rally with the 10 yr old. :)

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 03:36 PM
I looked through this thread and there is absolutely nothing unusual. Everyone had something to say and everyone provided an angle to something or wanted clarification.

The trouble is we have people on these boards with different levels of experience and knowledge in tennis instruction, playing, coaching, technical analysis, and other things. When people that already have a high level of knowledge in a certain area find a nugget of something to question or ask for more clarification, it is usually the people who don't have the knowledge that get upset because it appears or seems things are getting off topic. When the reality is it is just going deeper into a certain area.

We have thousands of people that visit these boards and many provide their opinions on things. It is totally unrealistic to think that threads are always going to stay on topic. We all can disagree and agree all we want and by the looks of many people here, they care about tennis and have a passion for the game. That is healthy and I for one want that here.

Further, this thread is pretty much dead, you would be hard pressed not the find the information you need for this RPT system. The bottom-line, is people provided links for you to do your research. Quit being lazy and go learn.

5263
12-17-2009, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=Ash_Smith;4202537]
What have you brought to the party - except to ignore several questions posed directly to you recently, [QUOTE]

Just so you are aware, I know Julian quite well and that comment was a very friendly inside comment. I never have snide comments to posters who have not attacked first. Even when you accused me of not answering your question last time, I was nice, even though you had mis-read and were snide with me.
bb has offered some tips and started nearly as many battles on here. I have offered many, many tips or instruction on here and answered your questions I have noticed very directly. I'm not going to respond to some of the trolls like Drak & Suresh unless there is an interesting reason to. If they ask an honest question and deal with answers objectively, then I would be glad to converse with them. I don't see that happening. lol

drakulie
12-17-2009, 07:38 PM
11th request.

Could you provide an example of a revolutionary/modern way one teaches a volley thru the use of MTM methods?

Thanks in advance.

Wegner
12-17-2009, 08:11 PM
11th request.

Could you provide an example of a revolutionary/modern way one teaches a volley thru the use of MTM methods?

Thanks in advance.

drakulie, here is an example, for better direction, more ball speed and control, volley down and firmly across the line of the ball, not towards the intended target. The direction of your shot depends on the racquet angle, not the direction of your movement. If you like this one, I can tell you more.

Best regards,
Oscar Wegner, TennisTeacher.com

5263
12-17-2009, 08:15 PM
11th request.

Could you provide an example of a revolutionary/modern way one teaches a volley thru the use of MTM methods?

Thanks in advance.

Here is a novel idea. Volley is pretty simple, so you should be able to handle this. Tell me what you think is standard or conventional instruction for the for the volley, and maybe I'll show you how MTM departs from standard and improves it.

This would give you a chance at getting your answer (if you really are interested, which I doubt)
AND it would be something other posters could see, so when Oscar or I show you the improvements, You can't say you and your brother invented it in the backyard when you were 10 or some other nonsense about how everybody does it that way. I expect you will still try to say these things anyway, but I will have your version on record just the same, so that any reasonable person can see how you play.

And as always, I repeat that Oscar never claims to have invented this or any of it, but he recognized, recorded and teaches important aspects to highlight and teach; that other instructors were not on record as teaching.

tlm
12-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Great post Oscar, you have to understand that bb thinks he is the king of this site.Also he is so jealous of you that he cannot control himself.

I have always thought how crazy it is for a tennis discussion site that does recognize how beneficial your methods of teaching are.

drakulie
12-17-2009, 09:40 PM
drakulie, here is an example, for better direction, more ball speed and control, volley down and firmly across the line of the ball, not towards the intended target. The direction of your shot depends on the racquet angle, not the direction of your movement. If you like this one, I can tell you more.

Best regards,
Oscar Wegner, TennisTeacher.com

Please explain how this is in any way "revolutionary", or "modern".

Thanks.

Bungalo Bill
12-17-2009, 10:40 PM
BB, I see you like to post some quotes by L. Ron Hubbard, even though those were very far from the subject of the Sanchez/Casal RPT Spanish Training Model. Here is something Hubbard said too: "constructive ideas are individual and seldom get broad agreement in a human group". Could that apply to me and the very subject of tennis? Could it be that you are trying to destroy something constructive because it differs from your own viewpoint? Please write your response when you are in a good state of mind, not like in college.

Best regards and wishes, and a very Merry Christmas and New Year.
Oscar Wegner, TennisTeacher.com
ps. I use my own name in these threads. Could you disclose who you are as well? This way I can send you a Christmas card.

:) Hello Oscar, thanks for reading my post. And yes, I did. However, did you see my questions? I would be glad to take it to another board and thread. I had some specific questions. Would you like to answer them somewhere else?

There are a lot of things people say that can be viewed as profound. However, I have some deeper questions for you based on the wording in your posts and your approach to tennis instruction.

Oh Oscar, you haven't been on these boards much have you. When I started on these boards, my goal is to give free instructional advice the best way I can anonymously. I dont want to sell product or associate myself other than the advice I provide.

Hey, at least I posted my picture as my avatar!!! That is me surfing in front of the house I lived in Hawaii. Do you like the shot? Ever surf yourself Oscar?

And that is great you are using your own name. I would too if I had something to sell. However, just as many others that contribute on these boards have nicknames, I do too. I am also surprised with your sudden aggresivness? Did I strike a nerve? Expose a hidden agenda?

Thanks though for your offer but wishing me a very Merry Christmas is just fine. Merry Christmas to you to Oscar and a Happy New Year!

sureshs
12-18-2009, 05:26 AM
Great idea, Xenakis. Could you be so kind as to start such a thread?

Good idea. Might do it myself.

Wegner
12-18-2009, 09:50 AM
I dont think that will ever happen. If Oscar and his followers are allowed to freely make claims that are questionable, promote their product against TW policy either directly or indirectly, provide examples that make other coaches that don't use their system as old, out-dated, or "conventional", and is allowed to take credit for things I know is not true, or spin things in such a way where he always looks favorable in any discussion, people here can respond whether they agree or not.

Since I am well versed in tennis and desire that good information is shared on these boards, and because I have been here for years, I can provide my opinion whether it turns into a debate or not.

Bungalo Bill, I think you are promoting yourself unreasonably here as being well versed; I would characterize a pro as well versed if he knows all aspects of the game, including all tenets about modern tennis.

You may know these, but your dismissal of such in such irresponsible manner in regards to readers, not just posters, makes me question your science knowledge, from gravity, friction and air resistance, impact force, acceleration vs momentum, muscle groups, kinetic chains, and the like.

You sure can express your opinion, but don't sell yourself as an expert if you are not. Otherwise you muddle the debate of so many people interested in learning and trying different things to see which work and which don't, deciding what to adopt on their own determinism.

By presenting your viewpoint in a responsible and intelligent manner you'll contribute to the debate, rather than your present actions to destroy. I hold you responsible for having several interesting and educational threads erased from this Forum. Your personal attacks on myself show that you take the debate into other arenas to make small of others and look yourself bigger. What you have done is make yourself look smaller than you probably are.

Prove your technical points, like I have proven mine half the way (or more) around the world, something that you can't disprove no matter what you say.
Furthermore, prove that you are a valuable member of these discussions and this Forum by sticking to the subject at hand, and I will forgive the damage you have anonymously done.

sureshs
12-18-2009, 10:18 AM
^^^ A new thread "Ask Oscar" has been created.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=302679

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 10:21 AM
^^^ A new thread "Ask Oscar" has been created.

Where? Probably need to move the thread to Rants and Raves or Odds and Ends or something like that where we are more allowed to fire away (without profanity of course). If you posted it here, maybe the moderator can move it for us. I know Kaptain Karl used to do that instead of deleting them.

sureshs
12-18-2009, 10:22 AM
Where? Probably need to move the thread to Rants and Raves or Odds and Ends or something like that where we are more allowed to fire away.

I have some questions that I want answered that might turn into a rant. :)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=302679

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 10:39 AM
Bungalo Bill, I think you are promoting yourself unreasonably here as being well versed; I would characterize a pro as well versed if he knows all aspects of the game, including all tenets about modern tennis.

Oh, I don't think so Oscar. A pro may or may not be well versed in a topic. They may not understand learning theory or other aspects of coaching. You should know that because if that were true, then you should be listening to instructors that are your peers or have provided you evidence which you continue to deny.

Case in point, your "modern forehand" which you claimed was your discovery or something like that. I showed you pictures from 1926 showing players hitting with the exact forehand you describe.

Further, your farfetched example on hitting early, I provided information that you might have taken that out of context. However, we could also take your "hitting across the ball" out of context as well.

Whether you like it or not Oscar, I have proven that I am well versed by even you and your past compliments on what I have provided in a variety of areas. Even your John Carpenter has complimented the knowledge I have in tennis instruction, fundamentals, tennis history, and tennis insight. He even has personally emailed me for input and advice.

You may know these, but your dismissal of such in such irresponsible manner in regards to readers, not just posters, makes me question your science knowledge, from gravity, friction and air resistance, impact force, acceleration vs momentum, muscle groups, kinetic chains, and the like.

Oscar, this is nonsense and you know it.

You sure can express your opinion, but don't sell yourself as an expert if you are not. Otherwise you muddle the debate of so many people interested in learning and trying different things to see which work and which don't, deciding what to adopt on their own determinism.

Yup, I sure can. I guess the years and years of auditing has paid off! Being well-versed in something does make me a subject-matter expert. However, being well-versed does not mean I know everything but have enough knowledge and experience to provide guidance, instruction, and an opinion on the topic at hand. It means my opinion, diagnosis, or insight can be considered reasonable and reliable or most importantly - valid. It also means I can cut to the chase quicker than those that are growing in stroke analysis, instruction, and other aspect of tennis and provide a reasonable and reliable opinion on the subject.

Isn't that how you believe people learn Oscar? I believe I have grown to the point where I can feel, sense, use my intuition, and draw on past experience concerning the subject at hand. I can sense when something smells fishy and pursue it until my curiosity is satisfied. I am also more aware when I am being sold a bill of goods and can help others avoid a big mistake. At the very least, I can provide an opinion and a warning of sorts to help a tennis player become more aware of what they are getting into.

No matter how you slice it Oscar, I am well versed.

By presenting your viewpoint in a responsible and intelligent manner you'll contribute to the debate, rather than your present actions to destroy. I hold you responsible for having several interesting and educational threads erased from this Forum. Your personal attacks on myself show that you take the debate into other arenas to make small of others and look yourself bigger. What you have done is make yourself look smaller than you probably are.

Oscar I don't mind views being presented in an honest and responsible light. However, I didn't experience that from your followers and you. I thought you were sneaky, had a hidden agenda, where more interested in using this site to sell your product, etc...I think you need to look in the mirror.

And if my hard questions bother you, all you are telling me is you really are hiding something.

Prove your technical points, like I have proven mine half the way (or more) around the world, something that you can't disprove no matter what you say. Furthermore, prove that you are a valuable member of these discussions and this Forum by sticking to the subject at hand, and I will forgive the damage you have anonymously done.

Come on, Oscar, you haven't proven jack. Others have for you. The only thing you have proven is you are not the Father of Modern Tennis. My advice and instruction comes from years and years of research. I do not claim I created the instruction or performed the research. I am a coach, I use the honest hardwork of others (just as you do) to help players improve.

I would take half these players here, free of charge, and give them an excellent lesson and instruction just as I do now in my area. I don't need fanfare, getting in the limelight or anything else. When a player offers me money or at least to buy me dinner, I turn it down and tell them that my service is free of charge - period.

I want tennis to grow. I want players to learn. I want players to respect the establishments that have helped this young sport continue on. I don't want players to put their hard earned money into my pockets. I want their hard earned money to go into their families, the things they love to do, and the charities they support.

Give me a break Oscar, the only thing I see about you is you have a hidden agenda that you aren't being truthful about, and you have taken claim for things that aren't yours to claim. How can I respect that.

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 11:04 AM
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=302679

Good, I will be there.

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 11:05 AM
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=302679

It says invalid thread specified???

MichaelChang
12-18-2009, 11:19 AM
New TW rule: Anything about MTM and Oscar Wegner will be deleted without mercy.

sureshs
12-18-2009, 12:08 PM
It says invalid thread specified???

It was deleted. I am not sure why, but I made it very clear in that thread where all the material came from, and asked mods to delete if anybody raised copyright objections, so that might have been the reason. I understand that. It is a commercial venture, at the end of the day. Someone needs to make money from the books and videos. The more closely guarded it is, the better.

I think I have seen enough of MTM by now. Nothing new in it for me.

I think the intention of MTM is not to provide any free tips or instruction on this board but just keep refering to it.

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 12:11 PM
It was deleted. I am not sure why, but I made it very clear in that thread where all the material came from, and asked mods to delete if anybody raised copyright objections, so that might have been the reason. I understand that. It is a commercial venture, at the end of the day. Someone needs to make money from the books and videos. The more closely guarded it is, the better.

I think I have seen enough of MTM by now. Nothing new in it for me.

I think the intention of MTM is not to provide any free tips or instruction on this board but just keep refering to it.

Thats too bad. I really wanted my questions answered (although I already know the answers). :)

I am really glad we have the moderators we have now. I have exchanged some emails with some of them and they are very balanced and unbiased people. So when they delete a thread, it can sting a little because we get involved in the conversation, but as you implied, it is their boards and they need to show that it is their boards.

Let's respect these folks that want to continue with RPT alone. I have learned enough about RPT that I can say I really like it. If I was starting over again, I would look into being certified in it. Moving on to help others....

5263
12-18-2009, 03:00 PM
I really wanted my questions answered (although I already know the answers). :)

it is their boards and they need to show that it is their boards.

....

It is amazing what you find if you just read the post.

These 2 sentences say so much about how a person thinks and operates.
They need to show that it is their boards??? lol

Djokovicfan4life
12-18-2009, 03:05 PM
Haha, this thread is not long for this world.

5263
12-18-2009, 03:20 PM
.....................

sureshs
12-18-2009, 03:23 PM
It is amazing what you find if you just read the post.

These 2 sentences say so much about how a person thinks and operates.
They need to show that it is their boards??? lol

Please clarify a doubt about kick serve. Do you believe in the motto "To get a twist, snap your wrist"? Do you think that the serving arm should practically stop before impact, and then the server should use the wrist snap to hit the ball to get a kick serve? And that this should not be like a first serve, where the arm continues to move into the ball? Do you believe that a last-instant slowdown of racquet followed by a wrist snap is the way to deliver a kick serve?

Please be specific in your answer.

sureshs
12-18-2009, 03:35 PM
Federer hitting on the lower half of the racquet:

http://www.ace-tennis-coach.com/images/fanpix_roger_federer_forehand.jpg

http://2008.usopen.org/en_US/news/photos/2008-08-29/200808291220049924531.html

Nadal hitting on the lower half of the racquet:

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/photos/2009-01-30/200901301233308420609.html

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/11/nadal_forehand_wideweb__470x290,0.jpg

tennis_balla
12-18-2009, 05:23 PM
Edit: Nevermind misread the post

Djokovicfan4life
12-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Federer hitting on the lower half of the racquet:

http://www.ace-tennis-coach.com/images/fanpix_roger_federer_forehand.jpg

http://2008.usopen.org/en_US/news/photos/2008-08-29/200808291220049924531.html

Nadal hitting on the lower half of the racquet:

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/photos/2009-01-30/200901301233308420609.html

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/11/nadal_forehand_wideweb__470x290,0.jpg

The ball is almost dead center in the Federer pic, and Nadal hits with so much topspin that it's not practical to think that he's going to hit the center every time.

I don't think that they are trying to hit lower/higher or whatever.

chess9
12-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Very good videos. Many thanks to the OP. I really found interesting the doctor's comments that balance was developed best between ages 3 and 6! Wow!! So, all those early childhood activities riding a bike, skating, playground equipment, swimming, kicking a ball, are critical to developing balance. Even swinging a tennis racquet early must have some benefit.

This teacher is very very good.

-Robert

hyperwarrior
12-18-2009, 11:54 PM
I have to thank the OP for the videos....really great

clta
12-19-2009, 01:18 AM
I'll most probably be attending the RPT course in Australia in the hopes of getting certified... i come from malaysia and we've never done video analysis.. seeing its very important in the RPT course could some of u guys gimme tips on what are they looking out for ?

Ash_Smith
12-19-2009, 07:17 AM
Hi clta, video analysis is just another tool used to aid the coach and the player in understanding what's happpening within a given stroke - the advantage being you can slow down the speed to pick out more detail (im sure you know this :) ). In respect of the RPT video analysis is used exactly the same way, it's another tool, it's not the be all and end all so don't worry about having not used it before.

You'll still be looking for the same things as you'd be looking for with the naked eye, but the use of video can make it easier to see. You'll still correct the errors/technique/whatever using the same teaching model regardless of how you spot the fault. The RPT models itself on being "Masters of technical excellence" so the technical model (both physical and racquet) and the error detection/correction models are excellent.

Hpe you enjoy the course - give us some feedback if you do it.

clta
12-19-2009, 08:48 AM
Hi clta, video analysis is just another tool used to aid the coach and the player in understanding what's happpening within a given stroke - the advantage being you can slow down the speed to pick out more detail (im sure you know this :) ). In respect of the RPT video analysis is used exactly the same way, it's another tool, it's not the be all and end all so don't worry about having not used it before.

You'll still be looking for the same things as you'd be looking for with the naked eye, but the use of video can make it easier to see. You'll still correct the errors/technique/whatever using the same teaching model regardless of how you spot the fault. The RPT models itself on being "Masters of technical excellence" so the technical model (both physical and racquet) and the error detection/correction models are excellent.

Hpe you enjoy the course - give us some feedback if you do it.


yea I know how it's done etc.. I've youtube some videos of video analysis done at the NBTA and I see they're very concern about the degrees etc. Where can I learn where to start measuring the degrees from..I know the computer software will help do it but where exactly to click to start from and major points to lookout for

sureshs
12-19-2009, 10:37 AM
I don't think that they are trying to hit lower/higher or whatever.

Precisely.

tennis_balla
12-20-2009, 05:55 AM
All quiet on the western front....

Ash_Smith
12-20-2009, 06:49 AM
@clta - what degrees are you looking to measure? If you're refering to angles in the body through the swing I wouldn't worry too much - IMG might do this but it's not something I've ever come across within the RPT. Video tends to be used more to identify errors or commonalities between players and their swings. Things you couldn't see with the naked eye.

@ Balla
OW seems to have taken all the gloss and momentum out of this thread - shame really as the RPT/Spanish system offers so much more than MTM!

clta
12-20-2009, 07:33 AM
ahh that's a great relieve to hear.. yea IMG puts a lot of emphasis into it that's why I thought it's the general consensus to do so.. but if it isn't then it should be alright..
thanks

tennis_balla
12-20-2009, 08:03 AM
@ Balla
OW seems to have taken all the gloss and momentum out of this thread - shame really as the RPT/Spanish system offers so much more than MTM!

I'm just happy all the off-topic arguing has stopped.

This thread will eventually die off like the rest, thats inevitable. I just hope I had a chance to help some people out and introduce something new to the forum here by posting those videos but if anyone has anything to add, or share in terms of RPT, Spanish tennis or get a discussion going comparing different teaching methods to RPT I'm all for it. What I don't want though is this to turn into another MTM thread.

Ash_Smith
12-20-2009, 08:20 AM
@ clta

While the RPT take a very technical approach in terms of teaching racquet and physical techniques - it is a very simple approach, requiring some key elements to be in place in order to produce the required swing. If you look at most Spanish tour players their technique is no more advanced than anybody else (maybe even less advanced) - what you do see is simple and most importantly repeatable - and therefore very effective. This, combined with very effective teaching of movement and the use of the body, makes for an excellent system.

Whilst the IMG guys are checking the minute angles of the swing the Spanish guys are out hitting *****loads of balls!

5263
12-20-2009, 08:40 AM
I'm just happy all the off-topic arguing has stopped.

This thread will eventually die off like the rest, thats inevitable. I just hope I had a chance to help some people out and introduce something new to the forum here by posting those videos but if anyone has anything to add, or share in terms of RPT, Spanish tennis or get a discussion going comparing different teaching methods to RPT I'm all for it. What I don't want though is this to turn into another MTM thread.

I agree with you here balla and appreciate your more reasonable position on these subjects.
Sounds like Ash wants to get it fired up again by stating his opinion that his chosen system has so much more to offer than MTM, especially since he has posted on here how little he knows of MTM, Oscar and the beginnings of RPT as well.

Ash_Smith
12-20-2009, 08:48 AM
5263 - I know plenty of the beginings of the RPT, and have seen enough of MTM to form my opinion - you alone have helped more than you can imagine! However, as Balla said, that is another discussion, for another thread for another day.

As you are still active in this thread what would you like to add or know about the Spanish/RPT systems?

5263
12-20-2009, 08:53 AM
5263 - I know plenty of the beginings of the RPT, and have seen enough of MTM to form my opinion - you alone have helped more than you can imagine! However, as Balla said, that is another discussion, for another thread for another day.

As you are still active in this thread what would you like to add or know about the Spanish/RPT systems?

Well since you sought to bring MTM into this thread in a negative light, it opens a lot to discuss doesn't it. I'm glad I was able to help you to a such a great extent.

W Cats
12-20-2009, 08:59 AM
Ash you mentioned that RPT may highlight stroke mechanics less in their methods. Does this have any correlation to Rafa's relatively weak serve in the early part of his pro career?

5263
12-20-2009, 09:05 AM
Ash you mentioned that RPT may highlight stroke mechanics less in their methods. Does this have any correlation to Rafa's relatively weak serve in the early part of his pro career?

My understanding is that RPT had little to do with Rafa's early years, but maybe Ash can speak more to that.

Ash_Smith
12-20-2009, 09:12 AM
@W Cats

I was speaking to Toni Colom, who ran the academy where Rafa trained as a junior, about something similar a few weeks back. In Rafa's junior years, because of his ability, there was a great deal of pressure on him to succeed and he often played up 1 or 2 age groups. There's a huge difference physically between 10's and 14's - this caused him to develop some of his more unique swing traits - like the reverse finish forehand and so on. Toni Nadal and perhaps more now Toni Colom are working very hard with Rafa to improve certain areas of his game - as you point out the serve was a definate area of weakness - and one which has developed alot in the last few years.

I don't think the serve issue specifically was due to the coaching system - as I said the approach is simple but the resultant technique is (usually) fundamentally sound. I feel it was more the result of having to find an effective way of starting the point before bringing his other skills to bear against bigger and more experienced players.

He also commented that while Rafa would spend 3 days per week at the academy with him, he would spend the rest of the time drilling with Toni Nadal in Manacor - perhaps something sliped though the net in transition from the two coaches?

Ash_Smith
12-20-2009, 09:24 AM
My understanding is that RPT had little to do with Rafa's early years, but maybe Ash can speak more to that.

Both Toni Colom and Toni Nadal are RPT certified coaches (as is Francis Roig who has travelled with Rafa in the past). Colom has worked with Rafa for about 14 years (so since he was about 9 years old) - I would assume he had been working with Unlce Toni for a few years before that though. I would think any RPT influence wouldn't have kicked in until Rafa was in his early to mid teens - similar to the time period when Murray was at Sancez-Casal.

W Cats
12-20-2009, 09:34 AM
Interesting history about Rafa. Slightly off topic but could you tell me about the hx. and development of the reverse finish forehand and it's usage. I profess that I know little about the finish and it's technical aspect and application. For whatever reason I initially equated it with women's tennis and it has seemed to gain traction with the men as well.

10ispro
12-20-2009, 09:25 PM
Interesting history about Rafa. Slightly off topic but could you tell me about the hx. and development of the reverse finish forehand and it's usage. I profess that I know little about the finish and it's technical aspect and application. For whatever reason I initially equated it with women's tennis and it has seemed to gain traction with the men as well.

Reverse finish isnt something you would ever necessarily teach. B/c of the grips being used (SW and Western), speed of the game and court positioning, it is a shot that develops in emergency situations.
Pretty much everyone who hits with a reverse finish does so in an emergency situation to impart massive amounts of topspin on the ball to provide enough net clearance and hopefully some court penetration as a counter attack, so they cannot be attacked.

I have two stories about the reverse finish.
the 1st is When I was taking the RPT course, someone asked a similar question about Nadal. Emilio responded that if you actually really watch Nadal, he uses the reverse finish when he is not really playing well b/c he is defending too much. He has poor positioning way behind the baseline and is not in an position to attack or impose his game on anyone. Apparently, it is something they have been working on him doing less of unless absolutely needed. He said when Nadal is on and playing well, and not defending as much you donot see it very often, but when you start seeing it-its a sign that he has retreated behind the baseline too much.

2nd story--I was at another conference and a Guy asked when do you teach the Nadal forehand? The response was "which forehand?"
B/c realistically there are many different stroke patterns and finishes which are dependent on the situation.

the 2 most common times the reverse finish is used are in emergency situations when you are scrambling to cover court. you have less than ideal positioning and you need to do something with the ball to provide a counter attack.
2nd is on return of serve. b/c of the speed of the serve, less than ideal positioning to receive the serve, it becomes necessary to get the ball back in play with a decent return.

10ispro
12-20-2009, 09:34 PM
@W Cats

. In Rafa's junior years, because of his ability, there was a great deal of pressure on him to succeed and he often played up 1 or 2 age groups. There's a huge difference physically between 10's and 14's - this caused him to develop some of his more unique swing traits - like the reverse finish forehand and so on.

whats interesting about this is in the ITF Advanced Coaching Manual is recommends Juniors play 3years ahead of their biological age.

2nd interesting point is Emilio was very passionate about not paying attention to rankings below 18s. Basically saying they were meaningless and pointless and often hinder development of an athlete. He pretty much condemned the US system and USTA ranking system and linked it to one of the reasons the US is not producing top Pros like it once did.

While I agree to many extents--one key thing that i remember from RPT training was one of the reasons Spain is such a force in tennis is b/c no matter where you go, the core message and principles will be the same.
If you train at Juan Carlos Ferroro's Academy, or SC-A, or Brugera's---you will get a similar enough message all over the country.
He said it is same in France and Argentina and many other countries.
in US you get many many different messages and many many different ways of doing things.
Emilio said if he gets a kid from France he knows that the junior will have good technique and good values, but a junior from the US "not so much".:cry:

Ash_Smith
12-21-2009, 12:10 AM
@10ispro

Absolutley - I said the same in a thread in the Junior section when somebody asked about the next tennis player producing nation. A unified approach to coach education means a unified appproach to coaching, which as you say, results in a consistent message to all players.

As for ratings/rankings, we have this argument with the LTA all the time. In the UK we now have ratings for players as young as 5. Players learn to chase ratings/rankings from an early age instead of learning to chase progress. Seems the USTA have the same issue.

5263
12-21-2009, 03:18 AM
2nd interesting point is Emilio was very passionate about not paying attention to rankings below 18s. Basically saying they were meaningless and pointless and often hinder development of an athlete. He pretty much condemned the US system and USTA ranking system and linked it to one of the reasons the US is not producing top Pros like it once did.


I really like this as it speaks not only to chasing rankings unnecessarily, but also to identifying talent too young and prematurely.

tennis_balla
12-21-2009, 05:30 AM
Same problem here in Canada for the most part. Pick the kids early mostly by who's ranked where, forget about the late bloomers, once you're in you're in.

W Cats
12-21-2009, 07:31 AM
What type of high school/jr. high programs are there in other country's with strong tennis programs. What qualifications do the coaches have? Are there standardized progressions? Do the schools serve as and early training/feeder program to the national programs?

Sometimes I wonder if our(U.S.) limitations in producing more great tennis players lies not only in the national program but in accessibility. Look at the number of basketball players this country produces and how accessible the sport is to anyone from elementary age on up. I don't think these kids are getting a standardized coaching program. And if you really look at the coaching they get from an early age they are getting a mix/match of coaches from older kids to former high school and college players. In the early stages most are even volunteers. There really is not a national education organization that is responsible for the teaching of the game. But somehow we produce players that for the most part are not taking private lessons or going to the basketball version of Sanchez Cassal. For some reason as an industry we've made it more limited than even skiing, in that we had more athletes and medals in alpine skiing than tennis in the last round of olympics. IMHO

10ispro
12-21-2009, 01:13 PM
What type of high school/jr. high programs are there in other country's with strong tennis programs. What qualifications do the coaches have? Are there standardized progressions? Do the schools serve as and early training/feeder program to the national programs?

Sometimes I wonder if our(U.S.) limitations in producing more great tennis players lies not only in the national program but in accessibility. Look at the number of basketball players this country produces and how accessible the sport is to anyone from elementary age on up. I don't think these kids are getting a standardized coaching program. And if you really look at the coaching they get from an early age they are getting a mix/match of coaches from older kids to former high school and college players. In the early stages most are even volunteers. There really is not a national education organization that is responsible for the teaching of the game. But somehow we produce players that for the most part are not taking private lessons or going to the basketball version of Sanchez Cassal. For some reason as an industry we've made it more limited than even skiing, in that we had more athletes and medals in alpine skiing than tennis in the last round of olympics. IMHO

you have hit on part of the problem. in the US, for the most part, Tennis is a rich sport. People who take lessons, goto clinics, camps etc...are mostly in higher income brackets.
Emilio has said several times that many of the players at the various Academies in Spain are all middle to lower middle class. Which makes them hungrier with more drive and focus.
Accessibility to top coaching is a definite problem for people who donot have the resources.
there are actually several smaller clubs within the Sanchez-Casal Academy. There is of course The Main training center in Barcelona and Naples,FL but also there were 4-5 other smaller, kind of country club type facilities as well.
All the coaches have the same training as in Barcelona and Naples.

tennis_balla
12-23-2009, 03:47 AM
I found this video today from someone who trained at Sanchez-Casal. Great footage of some of the drills we talked about in this thread. You'll notice just how much they work the players up at the net and getting to the net. Not your typical Spanish style as most people would imagine.
Some great footage also of Pato Alvarez running the players through some drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbXWfACf2M

Edit:

Here's another one regarding their fitness. They do a lot of that treadmill stuff, making the players do side steps on treadmills and other footwork movements. The trainers build the speed up gradually over time and eventually say they have more control over the exercise with the treadmill because they can control the speed at which they want the player to move so its more beneficial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Te8S5P1p-o

Ash_Smith
12-23-2009, 06:29 AM
On a fitness note - Murray was widely regarded as not being fit enough as ajunior and when he came on tour - whilst at AS-C his fitness programme wasn't designed by the fitness team - it was designed by the LTA in the UK and emailed over to the academy. All the team at AS-C could do was follw the email!

Was lucky enough to work/talk with Jane Morely the other week for a couple of days, Jane was the Director of Physical Training at AS-C for 5 years and worked with players from Conchita Martinez to Murray. She produced many of the drills in your vid Balla.

tennis_balla
12-23-2009, 08:34 AM
Was Murray under the LTA before going to AS-C? Interesting that they only wanted him to follow only the LTA fitness program. Do you know the reasons behind that? Were they wanting to have at least some form of control over Murray's development while at AS-C?

10ispro
12-23-2009, 09:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN9PGNIJPkI

more from treadmill.
When I went, we didnt get to see all the fitness exercises. We saw alot of the evaluation material, but not alot of the actual exercises

tennis_balla
12-23-2009, 03:01 PM
Thats a great video also 10ispro, thanks for sharing that.

10ispro
12-23-2009, 03:56 PM
Youll like these even more
http://www.youtube.com/user/10sDog#p/u/5/9hWslMBCoYE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwwoBpdgPL4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLERRqETV0
http://www.youtube.com/user/10sDog#p/u/7/_Rvv70icVp4

tennis_balla
12-24-2009, 02:51 AM
10ispro thanks for that....again. The first video is great.Thats a great explanation of AS-C's getting 'behind the ball'. That was pushed a lot in the course in Barcelona, great method.
I should go to one of those conferences, when is the next one?

10ispro
12-24-2009, 04:17 AM
10ispro thanks for that....again. The first video is great.Thats a great explanation of AS-C's getting 'behind the ball'. That was pushed a lot in the course in Barcelona, great method.
I should go to one of those conferences, when is the next one?

if it becomes annual then its December 2010. you donot have to be USPTA to attend and cost is the same.

tennis_balla
12-24-2009, 05:14 AM
Yea you can really tell the USPTA is out dated and conventional and promoting 'false data' when they put up conferences such as this :rolleyes:

chess9
12-24-2009, 09:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN9PGNIJPkI

more from treadmill.
When I went, we didnt get to see all the fitness exercises. We saw alot of the evaluation material, but not alot of the actual exercises

I tried these at the Y today! They are much harder than they appear. I have large-ish feet (size 12) so I kept hitting the sides with my toes and stumbling. Of course, I'm not exactly twinkle toes either. ;) Going backwards and jumping off the sides is easier than the carioki step. Keep your hands up and ready to grab the rails if you are new to these. Great proprioception and footwork drill.

I'd give this exercise a AAA+ rating if it were bonds. ;)

Thanks for posting this.

-Robert

Ash_Smith
12-24-2009, 09:56 AM
even more treadmill workouts - the best footwork i have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTAAsCNK7RA

5263
12-24-2009, 03:08 PM
Yea you can really tell the USPTA is out dated and conventional and promoting 'false data' when they put up conferences such as this :rolleyes:

Actually it is sad how much false data is contained in these, which could be outstanding drills; Also that you can't see the false data in the drills. I do think these vids are inspiring and full of great energy, although didn't see anything that I have not used in a more correct version.
Overall very good vids for players to get some ideas of things they can work on.

tennis_balla
12-24-2009, 05:05 PM
Actually it is sad how much false data is contained in these, which could be outstanding drills; Also that you can't see the false data in the drills. I do think these vids are inspiring and full of great energy, although didn't see anything that I have not used in a more correct version.
Overall very good vids for players to get some ideas of things they can work on.

Just curious as to where you believe the false data in these videos exists? I'm not trying to start a fight but since you brought it up I'm curious to hear your opinion in more detail.

VaBeachTennis
12-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Actually it is sad how much false data is contained in these, which could be outstanding drills; Also that you can't see the false data in the drills. I do think these vids are inspiring and full of great energy, although didn't see anything that I have not used in a more correct version.
Overall very good vids for players to get some ideas of things they can work on.

What is the "false data" in the drills and what would be your more "correct' version of the drills?

5263
12-24-2009, 06:04 PM
Just curious as to where you believe the false data in these videos exists? I'm not trying to start a fight but since you brought it up I'm curious to hear your opinion in more detail.

I don't want to start a fight either, but thought you were the one who brought up the point on false data, and I quoted it in my post on this.

But to answer-
One example that is pretty obvious in the volley drill besides her technique, is the way the drill has the player step inside the svc line to cut off the volley on a nice angle, then recover back to center T; in spite of the RPTs own contention (which I agree with totally) that you should be doing drills in actual play circumstances.
It would be extremely rare to step in and cut off a volley like that in a point, as you push off and recover back to the center T. I think Braden in tennis 2000 makes a good point about how it is best to practice volleys from this area as you continue towards the IVP.

tennis_balla
12-25-2009, 03:28 AM
I understand your point but its difficult to judge without knowing all the information and purpose about the drills at hand.
That drill is AS-C Basic Drill #9. It works the first step in getting to the volley. I'm not sure if they were using a varient of it because they were going a lot faster but the way we did it was you push off and cut the angle on the volley, then use your front left leg on the forehand side to push back to the T, then repeat on the backhand. Push off and and move in on an angle and then push back with your right leg and move back to the T. Its a drill that isolates a certain movement done on the tennis court and make it better but also working your legs that much harder by having to push back.

There are many different levels you can do on court of course in your training as a coach as you know. Feeding to a specific spot and working on technique in a more controlled manner, such as this drill, to moving the player around more but still standing in one spot feeding. Then you can do like in the RPT video and move as you feed according to where the player hits the ball or have set targets. Then theres the more interactive feeding where you feed the next ball according to how the player hit the previous, to doing live ball drills with the player or having 2 players do live ball drills against each other. Like Luis says in the video, each step up the coach loses a bit of control over the situation at hand but the player gains (if done correctly) a more match specific experience.

Its the same in the drill from the AS-C video where they had the kids start off at the T, move back, hit a forehand and then come in and hit a volley and then do the same off the backhand side (Basic Drill #7). Of course you would never move back like that if you were playing a match, but thats not the point of the drill. Its not a match specific drill. It works 2 things at once. First getting behind the ball on your approach and second moving in to your volleys.
Moving back behind the T and hitting a forehand or backhand is easier then at the baseline, so it can also be used to help the player understand and learn the proper movement without having the pressure to do it from the baseline which is more difficult when you first start doing it if they are having trouble with it. Its a great drill and I use this one quite a lot.

5263
12-25-2009, 07:46 AM
Of course you would never move back like that if you were playing a match, but thats not the point of the drill. Its not a match specific drill. It works 2 things at once. First getting behind the ball on your approach and second moving in to your volleys.


I'm glad we can agree that it is not something you would expect to do during a point and that we can discuss this reasonably. I get your point that it is not the "point of the drill", but unfortunately it has a serious effect on the technique of the Volley, thus a neg. data consequence. If it is one that you are willing to accept, I understand that, but personally I would not do that drill in conjunction with a volley. Maybe a catch could be considered in my case.

tennis_balla
12-25-2009, 10:10 AM
A 'negative data consequence' because the player moves back? I mean thats almost like saying practicing serves with a basket is wrong because you don't work on getting ready for the return, but instead you relax after the serve is hit.
Of course we all agree this is not the case because the player understands the purpose of serving this way with a basket, and knows that in a match they must be ready after the serve is hit for the on coming ball. Thats the same case here, the player has to understand or rather it is the coaches job to explain to the player before the drill is started why they are moving this way, what they are working on, and that it is only for the purpose of this drill. I don't believe the human mind is that stupid to not be able to differentiate these things, at any level of play. Now if this was the only drill on the volley or movement at the net that was practiced, then thats different but its not. Its only one piece of the puzzle, one drill out of the Basic 11 at AS-C which make up their core system.

5263
12-25-2009, 04:23 PM
A 'negative data consequence' because the player moves back? I mean thats almost like saying practicing serves with a basket is wrong because you don't work on getting ready for the return, but instead you relax after the serve is hit.
Of course we all agree this is not the case because the player understands the purpose of serving this way with a basket, and knows that in a match they must be ready after the serve is hit for the on coming ball. Thats the same case here, the player has to understand or rather it is the coaches job to explain to the player before the drill is started why they are moving this way, what they are working on, and that it is only for the purpose of this drill. I don't believe the human mind is that stupid to not be able to differentiate these things, at any level of play. Now if this was the only drill on the volley or movement at the net that was practiced, then thats different but its not. Its only one piece of the puzzle, one drill out of the Basic 11 at AS-C which make up their core system.

Interesting point of view you express and very logical as well.
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background, all share the constant that you play as you practice. That if you repeat a flaw over and over in practice for whatever reason, the nasty little flaw will slip up and bite you without exception.

It was very clear the negative effect on balance and form of stroke in the vid of volleys. Often she was already moving back as she contacted the volley. You don't need to cut your form short to serve from a basket, as she cut her form in this volley drill, but even so, I do prefer to see a server add a prep step at the end of the prac serves. I often have my servers hit to another player who is practicing rtns, which allows them to get in the habit of serving, then prep for that first shot after the rtn. It turns into a 4 shot drill as the returner also gets to hit one more ball so they are prepped to hit a shot after making the return. (Also leaves a bunch of balls on the serving side of the court)

There is no need for us to beat this to death. You are not going to be swayed by my observations and broad experience in this area, and I don't expect to be swayed that high reps with a poor volley tech will be adequately overridden by other aspects of the training.

maverick66
12-25-2009, 04:54 PM
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background

You should meet Leed. You two have alot in common. By the way you left out the part where you saved The Pope, The Queen of England, and President Obama from Godzilla using only a spoon.:)

tennis_balla
12-25-2009, 05:06 PM
My brother is a professional airline pilot, I don't know but sounds fishy especially the Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships.

10ispro
12-25-2009, 07:17 PM
Interesting point of view you express and very logical as well.
But on the other side, my experience as a D1 college football player, Black Belt Martial Arts instructor, Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships, along with my diverse Tennis instruction background, all share the constant that you play as you practice. That if you repeat a flaw over and over in practice for whatever reason, the nasty little flaw will slip up and bite you without exception.

It was very clear the negative effect on balance and form of stroke in the vid of volleys. Often she was already moving back as she contacted the volley. You don't need to cut your form short to serve from a basket, as she cut her form in this volley drill, but even so, I do prefer to see a server add a prep step at the end of the prac serves. I often have my servers hit to another player who is practicing rtns, which allows them to get in the habit of serving, then prep for that first shot after the rtn. It turns into a 4 shot drill as the returner also gets to hit one more ball so they are prepped to hit a shot after making the return. (Also leaves a bunch of balls on the serving side of the court)

There is no need for us to beat this to death. You are not going to be swayed by my observations and broad experience in this area, and I don't expect to be swayed that high reps with a poor volley tech will be adequately overridden by other aspects of the training.

background info. the girl in the video was a newer girl to the academy and it is obvious that she had little experience doing the drill which is why she is so uncomfortable and off balance.
While You have very valid points that practice should mimic play as much as possible--as tennisballa pointed out, this is only a small subset
SC-A teaches everything from a whole-part-whole perspective.
the entire drill is show first will and does simulate the course of a point. then individual segments are broken down and then it is brought backtogether again.

If you are actually a black belt martial artist, altho you didnot specify what discipline it was in, that is agreat example of how very segmented training can be. even katas are brokendown into individual components 1st and then brought backinto the entire form. Same with wrestling. How many hours are spent learning just to shoot for a single or doubl leg takedown with an abrupt stop beore the person is actually taken down?

SC-A has a strong emphasis on the physical and mental component in development. Technical is done within the confines of a tactic and situation. Individual aspects are broken down and refined and then brought back into the larger drill.

While I donot agree completely with some of the stuff SC-A and spanish method does, their methodlogy has produced more great players at all levels than many other countries including the US.

5263
12-25-2009, 08:04 PM
My brother is a professional airline pilot, I don't know but sounds fishy especially the Navy instructor for Test Pilots landing on ships.

I'll give you that, lol, but it's worded oddly so as to save a little space. In Naval Aviation, the single area that gets the most attention is ship landings. So as the Director of CRM {which contains the Human Factors specialty}, Instructor for NAWC (Naval Air Warfare Center) and Navy Test Pilot Center, it was a big focus of much that we did.
As poorly as I may have written that, it is no more goofy than "professional" airline pilot, as what other type of airline pilot is there except a professional? Now I never would have made a comment like that except in response to your comments about my post quickly scribbled in 45 secs. We are not preparing dissertations here. And not to try to make too much of it, but the things I mentioned represent less than half of the highlights of my experience.

5263
12-25-2009, 08:07 PM
You should meet Leed. You two have alot in common. By the way you left out the part where you saved The Pope, The Queen of England, and President Obama from Godzilla using only a spoon.:)

And maybe when you get a few more years in, You will have done a couple of pretty neat things in your life too, besides spend your daddy's money at high priced tennis academies?

And by the way, why would I save any of those you listed? Even if even a spoon where not required, as just a shake should wake them from the nightmare. You do know Godzilla is not real don't you? lol

5263
12-25-2009, 08:36 PM
background info. the girl in the video was a newer girl to the academy and it is obvious that she had little experience doing the drill which is why she is so uncomfortable and off balance.

If you are actually a black belt martial artist, altho you didnot specify what discipline it was in, that is agreat example of how very segmented training can be. even katas are brokendown into individual components 1st and then brought backinto the entire form.

While I do not agree completely with some of the stuff SC-A and spanish method does, their methodlogy has produced more great players at all levels than many other countries including the US.

Couple of interesting points here-
1st- good that we agree she was uncomfortable and off balance. I'm not the one who put up the vid as an example of RPT or the one who said, "you can really tell the USPTA is out dated and conventional and promoting 'false data' when they put up conferences such as this"

2ond- you are not a Black Belt instructor are you, with this explanation of how things are segmented in forms and Kata. I didn't go into my background is such that trolls like Mav66 lose it with disbelief, even though compared to many I trained with, it is little to mention. If you really are interested, my black belts are in Weapons, Shorin-ryu, and Tae Kwon do, along with a brown belt in Shotokan without getting into several other areas of my study like MMA and Kung Fu specialties. But just like in tennis, I've been fortunate to train with some of the best in the world and I'm happy to leave it at that.

3rd- My comments were not to downgrade the RPT system, as it is probably the leading accepted system out there currently and doing some REAL good stuff, but only to answer the backhand comment about the presence of false data or not. I find it to be far ahead of what has been going on in the US over the last 20 years.

tennis_balla
12-26-2009, 07:01 AM
I said it, yea I was being a smart *** but also because I don't agree with the term 'false data' being thrown around like that.

Here's a video of a young pimple-faced Roger Federer doing some on court and off court training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwh0GfA_eo

If you look at this video, I'm sure you could find lots of negative data consequences, such as at 1:54 where he's moving up and down at the net with a rubber band attached to his waist for example but you can't possibly say that all these drills effected Roger to such a degree that it hurt him in his career because he didn't practice as he plays. Like I said before and what 10ispro mentioned also, its only one drill of many used to work on a specific area.

You can even say that IMG/Bollettieri have some weak points in their training or could do it better or different, but you gotta respect their system and their ability to keep producing a ton of talent over the past decades and still today. Sure, a lot of those kids were already pretty developed before they came to IMG but its obvious IMG would change certain things in their game and have the kids be taught their way.

5263
12-26-2009, 08:04 AM
I said it, yea I was being a smart *** but also because I don't agree with the term 'false data' being thrown around like that.

Here's a video of a young pimple-faced Roger Federer doing some on court and off court training.

You can even say that IMG/Bollettieri have some weak points in their training or could do it better or different, but you gotta respect their system and their ability to keep producing a ton of talent over the past decades and still today. Sure, a lot of those kids were already pretty developed before they came to IMG but its obvious IMG would change certain things in their game and have the kids be taught their way.

I see all the dif in the world in how Roger's drill is done and the vid of the RPT drill. You don't?

But yes, everyone must overcome false data to one extent or another. I just don't agree with adding any that is known, even if only a part of several drills. Fed's drill shows how that drill can be done better, and still fit into the overall system.

And No, I don't have to respect what IMG has done in the way of developing/training players, but no need to get into the negatives here in this way. I'll just say that I don't see it as a value proposition.

10ispro
12-26-2009, 11:31 PM
There will NEVER be a be all end all system of training for anyone. everyone has different needs to address and just about everyone has a different approach to even the same problem.
Realistically to what will work best for someone is to find a program or coach who has a methodology and philosophy that you want to believe in and buy into. Not everyone will buy and thats the reality--no reason for anyone to get upset. If it isnt for you--its not for you--end of story.
EVERY system has flaws especially if you put every detail under a microscope. It would be ridiculous to say that any training system is perfect.

RPT address Tennis training from a different perspective than most with a strong emphasis on the receiving component whereas majority of other systems and coaches focuses primarily on sending.
But since how someone positions to receive will directly affect how someone sends the ball, which then will affect recovery....
BUT people have still produced champions using a method that emphasizes sending 1st.

I still dont get wtf anyone is talking about false data being presented by USPTA in any of the videos. B/c a girl was off balance was not an example of false data, if anything it reinforces the point about the importance of positioning,balance, footwork and recovery.

in the end, there really isnt a right way and a wrong way, but most times there is a better way. I think its ignorant to say one thing is completely right and something else is completely wrong, especially if you are basing it just on personal experience, but you arent everyone else. you are you.

tennis_balla
12-27-2009, 08:04 AM
Thats kind of what I was trying to get across also 10ispro.

Personally, if I was in Florida and had a chance to attend a coaching conference put on by IMG/Bollettieri I would go. It would be stupid not to and deny yourself of learning more. There are always things to learn and take away from and incorporate into your own coaching. Even though I do not agree with the majority of what MTM stands for I still took some pointers, specifically from Oscars 101 Tennis video for beginners. Now I hardly coach beginners but its still a plus to know more.
RPT/AS-C isn't an end all be all, and they don't come across this way at all either. At AS-C they even said these drills can be changed and modified to your liking, they don't mind as long as you understand the principles behind them which is the most important.

5263
12-27-2009, 08:34 AM
I still dont get wtf anyone is talking about false data being presented by USPTA in any of the videos. B/c a girl was off balance was not an example of false data, if anything it reinforces the point about the importance of positioning,balance, footwork and recovery.

in the end, there really isnt a right way and a wrong way, but most times there is a better way. I think its ignorant to say one thing is completely right and something else is completely wrong, especially if you are basing it just on personal experience, but you arent everyone else. you are you.

It's not that she is just off balance, as much as it has great effect on her form in several neg. ways and is allowed, even supported in the instruction. I didn't pick this vid as an example of RPT. I didn't bring up the subject of false data in relation to it either, but just responded to another poster who brought it up with a backhand type comment. It would have never come up except that remark. This is also not nearly all the false data in thoses vids, but I just mentioned this one as it jumped out as such a clear example.

What you say above is much in line with what I said here about how there is always some false data to overcome, but not wanting to include it when avoidable-
"But yes, everyone must overcome false data to one extent or another. I just don't agree with adding any that is known, even if only a part of several drills. Fed's drill shows how that drill can be done better, and still fit into the overall system."

5263
12-27-2009, 09:07 AM
Luis is a legend, the passion the man has is infectious! Was chatting to him last weekend about the state of tennis in britain and spain. He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players.

The reason the RPT system of teaching works so well is that nearly all spanish coaches are trained by the RPT so there is a unified and cohesive approach.

The irony is the rest of the world are just catching on to the "Spanish" (RPT) system when they are about to develop it to move it forward for the next generation.

An honest question here-
If the RPT system works so well, then why is there concern that the next gen of players in missing?
This would be the group of players that would have had the most benefit from this system during it's developed prime so to speak, right?

Sup2Dresq
12-27-2009, 09:33 AM
An honest question here-
If the RPT system works so well, then why is there concern that the next gen of players in missing?
This would be the group of players that would have had the most benefit from this system during it's developed prime so to speak, right?

For USTA quick start tennis, the USTA section I'm in, is adopting the Belgian kids programs. Why? They said in training, that it was because of the success the Belgians had with kids. Kids elsewhere, left tennis because it wasn't fun. They also really pushed the program because it produced Kim and Justine. This was introduced what.. maybe 4 months ago. Guess things move slowly.

In the case of the RPT, it may not be that it works so well. I think its pretty good stuff from what I've seen. It's perhaps being adopted because it's better than nothing. We are losing a lot of players to other sports.

Time to do something before players here move on and state they are now world class soccer players overnight.

5263
12-27-2009, 09:36 AM
Sup, I agree that things do move slowly, but just thought RPT should be hitting it's prime about now if what they are doing is one the best on the market?

10ispro
12-28-2009, 03:39 PM
Sup, I agree that things do move slowly, but just thought RPT should be hitting it's prime about now if what they are doing is one the best on the market?

Youd have to wait a few more years to really start seeing the next generation of players. Before there was SC-A there was still this method of movement and patterns of play. I cant remember who the initial person was who coached Emilio and others in Spain, but he also went to Argentina and other countries as well.
I believe over the past several decades there has only been a few years that Spain has not had more players in the top 100 than most other countries on the Men's side. Womens side gets slightly more even. The years when Agassi, Courrier, Weaton, Chang, Martin, Krickstien, Arias, Sampras etc....were dominant were the years that the US had a clear advantage in number of players which would have been late 80s and early 90s.

Now Spain has Verdasco, Ferrer, Ferrero, Nadal, Lopez ,Moya, Almagro, Robredo--all did not train at Sc-A but that trained under a very similar system.
Murray is a graduated of SC-A as is Kuznetsova. Hantukova spent a couple years refining her game here as well as other Top Pros on both sides.
Sc-A had the top Junior in the world Grigor Demitriov as a graduate as well.

5263
12-28-2009, 03:49 PM
Youd have to wait a few more years to really start seeing the next generation of players. Before there was SC-A there was still this method of movement and patterns of play. I cant remember who the initial person was who coached Emilio and others in Spain, but he also went to Argentina and other countries as well.
I believe over the past several decades there has only been a few years that Spain has not had more players in the top 100 than most other countries on the Men's side. Womens side gets slightly more even. The years when Agassi, Courrier, Weaton, Chang, Martin, Krickstien, Arias, Sampras etc....were dominant were the years that the US had a clear advantage in number of players which would have been late 80s and early 90s.

Now Spain has Verdasco, Ferrer, Ferrero, Nadal, Lopez ,Moya, Almagro, Robredo--all did not train at Sc-A but that trained under a very similar system.
Murray is a graduated of SC-A as is Kuznetsova. Hantukova spent a couple years refining her game here as well as other Top Pros on both sides.
Sc-A had the top Junior in the world Grigor Demitriov as a graduate as well.

I'm not trying to say anything negative about RPT and it looks they are doing many things well. I think they may be much better than the IMG academies, but I was just asking about this statement by an RPT poster, quoting Luis-

"He believes the Spanish Federation need to make changes now or in 8 years or so after the current crop of players retire they will have no top players."

Personally I don't like counting great players as their successes when they come in to train like is done at IMG, as we are looking more for players developed. Bringing in players from all around the world that have already proven themselves, just means you do well enough not to disrupt them and maybe add a few subtle nuances. This is a great way to appear you are doing something special, but all you have done is market the location as a good place to train. But not nearly the same as developing home grown talent in volume from scratch.

10ispro
12-28-2009, 06:38 PM
B/c the RPT Mission to develop complete people as well as players, it will honestly be tough for anyone except those on the inside to know the numbers. I do know that every player that have played that opt'd to goto college went on scholarship for Tennis.
But outside of that they also had many graduates who went on to do other things, one work in some Foreign policy administration, and there were other examples of players with great jobs outside of tennis. so to them, the goal is develop a whole person, which is why education is a major component at SC-A not just a side card.

W Cats
01-04-2010, 02:08 PM
Here is a 15 segment series of RPT progressions I found on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmA8x5_Zb0U&feature=channel

clta
01-07-2010, 06:29 AM
1st off thanks a lot for the link W Cats.

I've watched the majority of the 15 videos and have a few questions

1) On the slice serve video, why is the coach not finishing on the left side. Wouldnt that would be much easier to slice ? He finishes on the right side

2) The forehand groundstroke video didn't mention on how they actually teach the use of the left hand. What I mean is a video where Luis pointed out the analogy of when hammering trying to be as close as possible to be accurate. How does the RPT actually teach that part ?

Many thanks for answering it. I've just email-ed RPT and got a reply that by February their calendar will be out

millenium
01-08-2010, 01:08 AM
Does anybody know if RPT have progressions of the slice backhand?
I have always wanted to know the progressions of the slice backhand?

W Cats
01-08-2010, 08:10 AM
I've watched the majority of the 15 videos and have a few questions

1) On the slice serve video, why is the coach not finishing on the left side. Wouldnt that would be much easier to slice ? He finishes on the right side

2) The forehand groundstroke video didn't mention on how they actually teach the use of the left hand. What I mean is a video where Luis pointed out the analogy of when hammering trying to be as close as possible to be accurate. How does the RPT actually teach that part ?

I'm not sure but I think you'll find the answer to the questions if you watch the entire vid on the slice and forehand. By the end of both vids you'll see that the follow through and finish is on the right side on the serve and the left hand gets active on the FH.

clta
01-08-2010, 05:18 PM
yea i know at the end he does that.. but why isn't it right from the beginning which is the easier option to learn to manipulate the ball to the left side ?

on the 2nd part, luis was emphasizing on it where else in the video it was just passing through..so im wondering how they actually teach that ? by just saying hey do this before hitting ? or is there any way of teaching it ..

many thanks for the reply

Ash_Smith
01-19-2010, 03:20 AM
yea i know at the end he does that.. but why isn't it right from the beginning which is the easier option to learn to manipulate the ball to the left side ?



It's in order to emphasize the extension and pronation - the racquet will finish across the body when the action is performed faster as there will be increased shoulder rotation - in the vid Yves is going through the progressions slowly, when they're linked together at full speed you'll see the finsih you're looking for. Remember, the arm doesn't come across the body on it's own, it's the roation of the racquet side that brings it across after the extension.

Hope that makes some sense!

Ash_Smith
01-25-2010, 01:45 AM
RPT revised teaching progressions on the way - slight simplification of the progressions w_cats posted - easier for the coach to teach and easier for the student to learn. Using the CDS (Concept Drive System) there's one less progression on each shot whilst still maintaining the technical fundamentals. Filming soon for videos.

tennis_balla
02-10-2010, 06:53 AM
RPT revised teaching progressions on the way - slight simplification of the progressions w_cats posted - easier for the coach to teach and easier for the student to learn. Using the CDS (Concept Drive System) there's one less progression on each shot whilst still maintaining the technical fundamentals. Filming soon for videos.

When will these be available?

W Cats
02-10-2010, 08:32 AM
I saw 2 Spanish Drill DVD's on the USPTA website. Has anyone had a chance to check them out yet?

http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm

julian
02-10-2010, 09:20 AM
I saw 2 Spanish Drill DVD's on the USPTA website. Has anyone had a chance to check them out yet?

http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm
As you may see stars/ellipse do NOT life easier

W Cats
02-10-2010, 09:28 AM
http://uspro**********.com/default.aspx/MenuItemID/1305/MenuSubID/221/MenuGroup/Menu.htm

Second verse different from the first.

TW must be blocking it.

It's at the US PRO TENNIS SHOP site under DVD library> on court with USPTA

W Cats
02-10-2010, 09:41 AM
Just checked TW to see if it was an item they stocked - nope. I had assumed that since it was on the USPTA site and a procduct of theirs that TW didn't carry it.

tennis_balla
02-10-2010, 01:06 PM
w_cats, there's a few on the USPTA site including some from Emilio Sanchez and the Luis Mediero RPT Training Model DVD from which I posted the video clips on Youtube for this thread. So thats the only one I have experience in. Its a shame cause Pato Alvarez at AS-C offered to sell me one of his DVD's, should of taken it but I didn't know who he was at the time.

W Cats
02-10-2010, 01:23 PM
I just ordered the two from the USPTA site.

W Cats
02-18-2010, 02:51 PM
Just watched the Spanish Practice Patterns: Hand-fed Drills DVD from USPTA and wow the information is rich. The disc is broken into two main sections, the edited presentation of the drills with adaptaions for varying ability levels was well done but what was on the bonus features of the disc was a taped session of the 2008 Player Development Conference was the gem of the disc. It had much more indepth info. and philosophy of their framework on creating a balanced foundational footwork movements that allows for efficient recovery and court coverage at the expense of what some might consider power from the legs.

tennis_balla
02-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Yea the Spanish use the play tennis with your legs sort of mentality so to speak, which you can't argue with cause its true you can't play tennis well without good footwork. Many coaches teach technique, how to hit the ball etc but like Luis shows in the videos I posted its the 4 things combined (reading the ball, movement, technique, recovery) that make you a great tennis player and a better coach when you incorporate that into your teaching and not just show how to hit a forehand or backhand off easy constant feeding. The higher the level the more you hit balls out of your comfort zone and off balance. How well you manage those and set yourself up in the point to be able to hit the shots you want to hit is how well you trained or were trained to handle those situations.

W Cats
03-18-2010, 08:12 AM
Tennis Balla & Ash Smith

I've watched the 2 Spanish DVD's a couple of times now and have a couple of questions maybe you guys or anyone else can help me with.

1. Luis and Emilio both talk about the importance of "getting behind the ball" when a player needs to move back in a defensive position to play the ball in the V or X drills. The way they ellaborate on it seems like they want you to hit it with more linear rather than angular movements, is this so?

2. Also in the same vein with hitting off the back foot on both wings they advocate hitting with more of an open stance on the backhand is this so?

3. During the seminar portion of the DVD someone asked about recovery position after a cross court exchange and they advocate that a player gets back the the "house" or center hash rather than 1/2 way from where you hit the shot to the center hash. Am I reading this right?

10ispro
03-18-2010, 08:52 AM
Tennis Balla & Ash Smith

I've watched the 2 Spanish DVD's a couple of times now and have a couple of questions maybe you guys or anyone else can help me with.

1. Luis and Emilio both talk about the importance of "getting behind the ball" when a player needs to move back in a defensive position to play the ball in the V or X drills. The way they ellaborate on it seems like they want you to hit it with more linear rather than angular movements, is this so?

2. Also in the same vein with hitting off the back foot on both wings they advocate hitting with more of an open stance on the backhand is this so?

3. During the seminar portion of the DVD someone asked about recovery position after a cross court exchange and they advocate that a player gets back the the "house" or center hash rather than 1/2 way from where you hit the shot to the center hash. Am I reading this right?


Emilio personally is not huge on Open stance especially moving forward.
Think of getting behind the ball another way. If you are familiar with soccer, in order for a player to trap a ball. he moves behind it and puts the outside foot out to trap it. so whether its moving laterally or diagonally, his goal is get his right leg behind the incoming ball.
Same concept. moving back on defense, you push from the backfoot which will usually natually put you in open or semi open stance to allow you to use your legs, hips and gain rotation.
moving forward, they teach primarily square/neutral stance bc your movement is more linear as you move forward to receive, hit and then start recovery moving to the net.

on both wings, it is important to get your body behind the ball so you can allow your body to rotate naturally. otherwise you start using your hands and arms too much to compensate for poor positioning. If you get behind the ball, then you can use your technique the way you would "normally" use it if you did not have to move.


I was at this conference when it was filmed. The lady who asked the question was bizarre to say the least. Her question was, in a crosscourt exchange, why Does Emilio want players to make a full recovery versus what many think is a simpler recovery by moving only partially back to the center to cover the higher percentage crosscourt return.
Emilio's perspective was the half way recovery leaves too much open on the other side.even a decent shot, could put you on defense and put you out of the court. So you should not train yourself to be "lazy" by not recovering the full distance.
Later on in the conference Luis talks about adapting the Spanish Method to suit your needs and your players and that players through experience will discover and make some of their own adaptation based on the situation.

I dont think its on the DVD, but if you watch the woman hit, shes barely a 2.5. Emilio had her come out to explain what she meant and she could barely make contact, it wasnt pretty by any means.

W Cats
03-18-2010, 09:08 AM
Yes, they did leave her in the finished DVD a little embarassing I'd say. I was surprised that they had a player of that caliber at the conference. But I think her question was valid considering information I've read suggesting a 1/2 way recovery on a deep cc exchange.

So getting behind the ball is essentially moving to a position so that you can set up early enough to use an efficient weight transfer/ body rotation?

10ispro
03-18-2010, 09:52 AM
Yes, they did leave her in the finished DVD a little embarassing I'd say. I was surprised that they had a player of that caliber at the conference. But I think her question was valid considering information I've read suggesting a 1/2 way recovery on a deep cc exchange.

So getting behind the ball is essentially moving to a position so that you can set up early enough to use an efficient weight transfer/ body rotation?

correct. moving behind the ball is being able to put your foot/feet and body in a position so you can transfer weight and rotate or as Emilio says " so you can do the round thing":)

So you have to keep in mind, that they were presenting how the Spanish Train. So would you start training initially by using the modified recovery or would you start training by using a full recovery and then as the player progresses and can use more tactics, then add in the modified situational recovery?
The X drill works on both sides, fairly equally, so it reinforces recovery toward the middle. You can modify it and just work on one V on one side slightly off center and train a different situation as well.
Nothing is really set in stone and they make adjustments as well.

also, players as they progress will usually start making adaptations of their own based on the situation.

I had the unfortunate pleasure of having that woman sit at my table during lunch. She was primarily there in a search for answers bc her kid plays alot of tournaments in Nor Cal or something.
Myself and some other Pros got into a heated debate with her, more like an argument bc she started saying that none of what Emilio and Luis made any sense bc they did not talk much about technique. She became very fixated that bc of a lack of better english words, Emilio said that if he gets a player from France versus other countries that he knows they will have the "right technique". Emilio meant, that they will have a solid foundation of movement and stroke patterns, this lady interpreted technique as purely how to hit the ball. She thinks that there is a "right" and "wrong" way technique.

She went on and on about how her kids new Pro spends majority of her sons lessons talking about racquet work and that its made all the difference but he still isnt getting great results. She saw no correlation between being in the right position and the ability to use the correct racquet work from that point. She views tennis as a game purely involving hitting a ball.

after we had finished eating, myself and the other Pros suddenly had something come up so we had to leave the table....

tennis_balla
03-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Well said about the technique 10ispro. There's more to tennis then just making contact with a tennis ball and follow through.

tennis_balla
06-15-2010, 07:16 PM
So I put these videos up for people to see some of the training methods coming out of Spain and to learn and expand their knowledge. I know its always risky with copyright issues and seems like I've been nailed. I've encouraged people to buy the DVD, buy other DVD's from USPTA and have never sent anyone a free copy even though I've been asked. I know this thread created interest and we had a good discussion going in the past and people have enjoyed the videos so I'm glad but its over. It seems like the USPTA doesn't like that and I got this warning when I logged into Youtube today.



ATTENTION
We have received copyright complaint(s) regarding material you posted, as follows:
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 3 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: nfH_KB63k44
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 1 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: 6Aj8jYfKqio
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 4 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: pCcb_sYn7dA
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about RPT Drills Part 1 (read description) - mxr80
Video ID: 5xo0ffkh-Z4
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about Spanish Training Model Part 2 of 4 - mxr80
Video ID: rHd0kMBdGkE
from United States PRofessional Tennis Association about RPT Drills Part 2 (read description) - mxr80
Video ID: DqCfLhWVaAE
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SFrazeur
06-15-2010, 07:42 PM
"tennis_balla" It's because of your postings on youtube that I decided to buy those DVD and others related to it.

-SF

tennis_balla
06-15-2010, 07:47 PM
Thanks man, and I'm sure others did as well but its ok, I understand why the USPTA did that so its cool. Just don't say I never did anything for you guys! haha

TriFloW
10-19-2012, 10:30 AM
Just wondering if there is anywhere that I can see these videos I am in the uk and am considering getting them but would like to sample them first is this possible
Thanks in advance
Gary

Ash_Smith
10-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Gary

Come to the RPT conference on 8/9th November and speak to the guys there - they should be able to point you in the right direction for resources. The members are on rpteurope.com also has some of the presentations and progressions etc, but you would need to join to see those (it is well worth joining though imo).

Anyway yeah, come to the conference - there's some great speakers this year... :oops:

5263
10-19-2012, 11:42 AM
Yes, quite interesting that the USPTA was complaining.
Do they sell these Vids?

Ash_Smith
10-19-2012, 11:44 AM
^^^I don't believe they sell them as they were (if i'm remembering correctly) filmed from a presentation Luis did at the USPTA conference a couple of years back.

5263
10-19-2012, 01:17 PM
^^^I don't believe they sell them as they were (if i'm remembering correctly) filmed from a presentation Luis did at the USPTA conference a couple of years back.

Interesting they are concerned about the promotion of RPT.