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Cindysphinx
12-12-2009, 05:34 PM
Around here, we play timed indoor matches, and the rules are pretty strict: If you are more than 10 minutes late, that's a forfeit.

Despite that strict, mandatory rule -- and the tendency of players/captains to enforce it -- most defaults I see are not because someone gets stuck in traffic.

Instead, the reasons players get defaulted seem to be:

1. Misunderstanding the match start time. I received one default this season, when a doubles opponent did not show up. Match started at 7 pm; she showed up at 8:30 thinking it stated at 9:00. She couldn't have been more embarrassed. Our mixed team was bitten by the 7 pm start time bug again just last night.

2. Misunderstanding the match location. I have had players go to the wrong facility. Thankfully, they tend to notice right away that no one else is there and can often get across town.

As a captain, I try to use the match reminder to plant a little subconscious information in their minds that they might remember: "OK, we've got one of those early 7 pm starts, so the traffic on Georgia Avenue on your way to **WHEATON** might be a problem."

Have you ever caused a default? What happened? Looking back on it, is there anything that could have been done to avoid it?

Cindy -- who likes it when her players carpool because it's not likely an entire car full of women will get it wrong

USERNAME
12-12-2009, 11:01 PM
Is this only for adult league? Cause Im a junior... Well Iv defaulted with injuries before, the most recent was earlier this year in an ITF boys dubs match where my partner caused the default. We were down in the match and he got an easy smash to give us a break, he missed it long, smashed his stick and used some profane words to describe himself. There was an official right outside our court, he walked in and told us to pack up... The guy I played with was real sorry and paid me back my entry fee.

Cindysphinx
12-13-2009, 10:26 AM
No, I meant where you lose because you fail to show up.

I've never defaulted with an injury, but I have had partners do so (or limp to the finish line).

USERNAME
12-13-2009, 02:27 PM
No, I meant where you lose because you fail to show up.

I've never defaulted with an injury, but I have had partners do so (or limp to the finish line).

Iv seen it happen in junior league play (when I was playing league) but its kinda rare. Most of the coaches have backups to fill empty spots if need be.

raiden031
12-13-2009, 03:02 PM
I showed up to the wrong facility probably twice, but was early enough to make it in time to the right facility.

Two years ago I showed up for what I thought was an 8:30pm match, only to find my captain drinking a beer and I thought that was odd, but then he said the match was over (started at 6:30) and they defaulted a singles court because I didn't show.

Cindysphinx
12-13-2009, 06:06 PM
Raiden, what caused you to become confused about match location or time?

Did captain send match reminders? Did captain use TennisOne?

Just curious.

raiden031
12-13-2009, 06:35 PM
Raiden, what caused you to become confused about match location or time?

Did captain send match reminders? Did captain use TennisOne?

Just curious.

Email reminders usually...the problem is that for alot of matches in my league, there are two possible facilities and two possible times (6:30 or 8:30). So its easy to mix them up, especially when you get the reminder the day before and have alot going through your head the next day.

JavierLW
12-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Email reminders usually...the problem is that for alot of matches in my league, there are two possible facilities and two possible times (6:30 or 8:30). So its easy to mix them up, especially when you get the reminder the day before and have alot going through your head the next day.

Ya, it always irks me when people do not read the emails and take responsibility for knowing what the details are.

I mean I put it right in the email WHERE and WHAT TIME it's at. Other then picking them up and driving them there I cant do much more then that.

I did notice something funny though this year. I was putting the time or location in the subject line of the email. Usually I think gee, it's important detail, it belongs in the subject line, they'll see it right away!!!!

Wrong! Apparently a lot of people have blackberry devices or iphones or other "smart"phones and they may not see the entire subject line at first glance. I couldnt believe how many people called me back asking "what time is the match on???" when I clearly stuck it right in the subject line.

So now I try to put a easy to read summary in the body of the message instead.

It's not too bad though, our team has been around now for six years and only once did we have to default because one of our players went to the wrong facility.

The facility had 3 teams, he went there at 6pm, saw we were not there but they said "another" team was playing at 730pm, so he drive all the way back home across town and BACK out there to find out that we were not playing the 2nd team there either, by then our match against the 3rd team on our home courts was done.....

I always kid the guy now about it, even though that was 5 years ago. At least he didnt make some lame excuse about how he got "confused" about it.

raiden031
12-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Ya, it always irks me when people do not read the emails and take responsibility for knowing what the details are.

I mean I put it right in the email WHERE and WHAT TIME it's at. Other then picking them up and driving them there I cant do much more then that.

I did notice something funny though this year. I was putting the time or location in the subject line of the email. Usually I think gee, it's important detail, it belongs in the subject line, they'll see it right away!!!!

Wrong! Apparently a lot of people have blackberry devices or iphones or other "smart"phones and they may not see the entire subject line at first glance. I couldnt believe how many people called me back asking "what time is the match on???" when I clearly stuck it right in the subject line.

So now I try to put a easy to read summary in the body of the message instead.

It's not too bad though, our team has been around now for six years and only once did we have to default because one of our players went to the wrong facility.

The facility had 3 teams, he went there at 6pm, saw we were not there but they said "another" team was playing at 730pm, so he drive all the way back home across town and BACK out there to find out that we were not playing the 2nd team there either, by then our match against the 3rd team on our home courts was done.....

I always kid the guy now about it, even though that was 5 years ago. At least he didnt make some lame excuse about how he got "confused" about it.

I don't think it matters how you present the information. It has to do with how much time elapses and how much information flows through a persons brain between when they read the email, and when they head to the match. Some people like myself need to look it up within a couple hours just to double-check, which is something I started doing after this happened.

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 04:32 AM
Yeah, I try to look it up on Tennislink that morning, just to try to cement the information in my brain. There have been many times during the day when I've said, "Gee, I should take the kid out tonight and find him a pair of shoes," only to realize I have a match that night and totally spaced.

I haven't had any issues putting the info in the subject line, and I worry that if I start putting it in both places it doubles the chance that *I* will make a mistake.

mirnyifan
12-14-2009, 06:13 AM
I was a captain for the first time this past Adult Combos season. I asked all of my players if they did text messaging. I was thrilled to find out that everyone of them did. I would send out a mass text message with all of the essential match info 3 days prior to the match. I would re-send another message the day before. And, for a few especially absent-minded teammates, I would send one last reminder about an hour before the match. It seemed to work pretty well...

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 06:23 AM
I was a captain for the first time this past Adult Combos season. I asked all of my players if they did text messaging. I was thrilled to find out that everyone of them did. I would send out a mass text message with all of the essential match info 3 days prior to the match. I would re-send another message the day before. And, for a few especially absent-minded teammates, I would send one last reminder about an hour before the match. It seemed to work pretty well...

Alas, I have some militant non-texters on my team. They don't have a texting plan and therefore pay by the text and have told me I can't text them.

Weird. I find texting saves a bunch of money because you can have a plan with far fewer minutes. So texting can't work for me. :(

Cindy -- who texts like a fiend now that she has a full-size keyboard and who likes how it cuts down on the amount of time she spends yelling into her phone

Nellie
12-14-2009, 06:34 AM
I was playing a lot of leagues for a while and, once got the start times mixed up because the start time began at the different times in different leagues. I also went to the wrong bubble once. In both instances, I had received e-mail reminders and still messed up. I guess I would just skim the e-mail and assume I knew what was going on since I was playing 4/5 nights a week and getting a dozen reminder e-mails per day. (p.S. - I also defaulted a match once because of traffic on Georgia Ave. going to Weaton. My GPS told me it should be 10 minutes. 30 minutes later, I arrive and defaulted by 2 minutes.)

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 07:17 AM
Hey, I didn't know you were a DC area person.

Yeah, Georgia Ave is a real bust.

ksteph
12-14-2009, 07:51 AM
I have never caused a default (knock on wood), but my former captain did.

Three seasons ago my 3.5 captain would always send out the line-ups for the entire season. Well one of the matches stated the start time was 830pm, when in fact it was 630pm. Our opponents showed up on time and we had to default all 5 courts.

Ouch!

Spokewench
12-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Alas, I have some militant non-texters on my team. They don't have a texting plan and therefore pay by the text and have told me I can't text them.

Weird. I find texting saves a bunch of money because you can have a plan with far fewer minutes. So texting can't work for me. :(

Cindy -- who texts like a fiend now that she has a full-size keyboard and who likes how it cuts down on the amount of time she spends yelling into her phone

I was a captain of 4 teams at one time last year and I don't even own a cell phone! Things work out if you are diligent usually.

JavierLW
12-14-2009, 08:43 AM
I don't think it matters how you present the information. It has to do with how much time elapses and how much information flows through a persons brain between when they read the email, and when they head to the match. Some people like myself need to look it up within a couple hours just to double-check, which is something I started doing after this happened.

Right that's the jist of it. It's YOUR responsibility to make sure you know the information no matter what you have to do.

It sounds like it happened to you once though and you took care of it.

I know a lot of people who are just habitual offenders. They show up late to everything, they forget things, typically they throw up excuses just like you have. (about their brain or whatever)

But really, 15 other guys managed to show up on time at the right place somehow, when it's just ONE person who constantly cant manage it, they really cant have any excuse..... (and again I dont mean you necessarily since you probably just did it once, but they tend to use the same kinds of silly excuses)

raiden031
12-14-2009, 09:22 AM
I know a lot of people who are just habitual offenders. They show up late to everything, they forget things, typically they throw up excuses just like you have. (about their brain or whatever)


Do you think I'm lying when I said I read an email a day before and still showed up to the wrong place? It was an honest mistake caused by internal confusion within me...it doesn't become an excuse except when someone does become habitual because they fail to learn from this kind of mistake.

ChipNCharge
12-14-2009, 11:08 AM
...30 minutes later, I arrive and defaulted by 2 minutes.

They wouldn't let you go ahead and play the match after being only two minutes late?? If I drove across town and made it there on time, but my opponents were two minutes late, my captain better not accept a win by default. I would want to play!

catfish
12-14-2009, 12:11 PM
I've never caused a default. But I'm very meticulous about checking my calendar on match day to verify time and location.

I'm not a captain very often, but when I captain teams I send an email to the whole team one week before the match with match line-up, match date, time & location. Then I re-send the same email the day before the match and ask that everyone playing to confirm by reply email. On the one hand, I feel like everyone is an adult and I shouldn't have to do this. But on the other hand, everybody is busy and plays on multiple teams so it's easy to get times and dates mixed up. Everyone on my teams says they appreciate the "double email" system. :)

JavierLW
12-14-2009, 12:51 PM
Do you think I'm lying when I said I read an email a day before and still showed up to the wrong place? It was an honest mistake caused by internal confusion within me...it doesn't become an excuse except when someone does become habitual because they fail to learn from this kind of mistake.

I agree, it only sounds like an excuse when we have to hear about the "internal confusion" and they have to get into detail about how their brain works or whatever.

Although I guess being drilled for an explanation might result in that.

A simple "Im sorry I screwed up, it wont happen again" would probably be good enough for most people. (at least until it happens again)

It would actually be a big deal to me though if it even happened once. (and it seems like you've had at least 3). We've only had one default in 6 years of tennis on our team.

But it is kind of disturbing because "internal confusion" seems to be sort of prevalent with people nowdays, especially in this quick text message (which means they are likely getting many of them) world of exchanging simplistic thoughts rather then actual explicit details which are important....

Anyway, I was agreeing with you. It really DOES NOT have anything to do with how the captain is presenting the information, it has ALL to do with whether the player takes responsibility for the information or not. (whether they have internal confusion or not.....)

(although 24 hours notice is probably not as useful for some people as a weeks notice and vice versa, and if you have to change the information that can become more problematic because it will stick to people's minds that they are doing whatever was in the first communication......)

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 12:57 PM
I have never caused a default (knock on wood), but my former captain did.

Three seasons ago my 3.5 captain would always send out the line-ups for the entire season. Well one of the matches stated the start time was 830pm, when in fact it was 630pm. Our opponents showed up on time and we had to default all 5 courts.

Ouch!
Ouch is right.

Before I send the match reminder, I go to Tennislink and gaze at the schedule to make sure it matches with our team spreadsheet. Just one last check to avoid exactly what happened to your captain.

If that happened to me, I would never live it down!

Cindy -- who has actually stopped to call a facility en route to make sure the match was where she thought it was

LuckyR
12-15-2009, 03:02 PM
I sure have. It was the last match of the season with going to Sectionals on the line. We were half a game behind this team and were playing doubles on court #1. I thought we could take these guys if we played well, which we didn't. We lost the first set 3-6 by a single break. We fell behind a break again in the second set but came roaring back and went up a break. Then I hit a quick reaction high FH volley. Bam!! Golfer's elbow really bad. I mean really bad. I tried to keep playing but had to default after the rest of that game and part of the one afterwards (my serve). The match came down to the last finishing doubles which we lost (our guys played over their heads and almost took the match).

Oh well...

Ripper014
12-15-2009, 03:31 PM
When I was playing league we would carpool and the whole team would meet and leave from the same location. We would leave together and arrive together. Meeting together meant we could make an emergency call if someone failed to show.

On the other hand... we have never excepted a default unless they completely failed to show. We have had instances where a team or members of a team arrived as much as 30 minutes late... but with us it was all about playing and competing so we would just play as much of the match as we could and accepted the results. For some people it is about winning for us it was about playing... how can you say you are the best if you don't play everyone.

Ripper014
12-15-2009, 03:34 PM
I have never caused a default (knock on wood), but my former captain did.

Three seasons ago my 3.5 captain would always send out the line-ups for the entire season. Well one of the matches stated the start time was 830pm, when in fact it was 630pm. Our opponents showed up on time and we had to default all 5 courts.

Ouch!

I guess it is always good to confirm match times and locations with the other captain...

Cindysphinx
12-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Ripper,

No one around here confirms anything with opposing captains. The match schedule is in Tennislink, so there is nothing to confirm.

Also, around here matches are 2-hours timed. You can't allow your opponents to waltz in 30 minutes late, and then just keep playing if you are not finished when your 2-hour block is up. Everyone knows that they must be on time or they will be defaulted, so folks who stroll in late aren't at all surprised that they were defaulted due to tardiness.

Obviously, time is less of a concern in areas without timed matches, so you can be more charitable.

Ripper014
12-15-2009, 09:44 PM
Ripper,

No one around here confirms anything with opposing captains. The match schedule is in Tennislink, so there is nothing to confirm.

Also, around here matches are 2-hours timed. You can't allow your opponents to waltz in 30 minutes late, and then just keep playing if you are not finished when your 2-hour block is up. Everyone knows that they must be on time or they will be defaulted, so folks who stroll in late aren't at all surprised that they were defaulted due to tardiness.

Obviously, time is less of a concern in areas without timed matches, so you can be more charitable.

I understand you have time limited matches... but I am sure if we were put in that situation we would play the 1.5 hours... and whoever was ahead would win. I also understand you have league rules... but we as a team would be willing to supercede them in order to play. Like I said we would rather win the point than have them handed to us. And I am sure they do not stroll in late... if they come I assume they intended to play. So yes of course you could default them fairly... we just choose not to, and who would know...?

I guess we believe the best teams should move on... and if we cannot beat all comers we should not be moving forward.

Does Tennis Link not provide contacts with opposing captains? I am just funny that way... I like to confirm all my appointments so that there are no misunderstandings... better a phone call than a no show.

OrangePower
12-16-2009, 09:14 PM
I've never caused a default.

As a captain I've had 2 players almost cause a default on my team (a different player on each occasion), but in each case we were able to avoid the actual default.

In one case, the player was just very late to an away match and the home team could have claimed the line. But they were very good about it and agreed to play the match when my guy eventually showed up. Their attitude was that their guy came to play a match, and so would rather go ahead and play than claim it by default. Good guys. And luckily there were no time constraints re the courts.

In the other case, we were playing split times (3 lines first followed by last 2 lines), and I was supposed to play second, so I was able to reshuffle the lineup and avoid the default (swapping myself and the late guy).

In both cases, the players had thought that the match time was later than it actually was, despite multiple emails including one the day before. Brain fart - it happens to the best of us.

JavierLW
12-17-2009, 02:21 PM
Does Tennis Link not provide contacts with opposing captains? I am just funny that way... I like to confirm all my appointments so that there are no misunderstandings... better a phone call than a no show.

I think what's Cindy's missing in her usual "we do it this way..." rant is that in her league, most of the players are not members of the clubs. Someone arranges all the leagues, books courts at clubs, etc... It's kind of all handed to them which is nice in one way.

Perhaps you league is more like mine. In ours it's the teams responsibility to get their own courts, not the leagues, and if it's a facility that holds a lot of back to back matches, the facility actually determines what time the actual matches are at.

Thus we have a rule that says the the captains have to communicate with each other and double check the times. My teams play on outdoor courts with no lights so we only have on possible time (6pm), but when we play away I usually have to chase down the other captain to get the time so I have enough time to get it to my players.

Cindysphinx
12-17-2009, 07:20 PM
I understand you have time limited matches... but I am sure if we were put in that situation we would play the 1.5 hours... and whoever was ahead would win.

: shrug:

You can certainly waive the rules and do anything you want. You could play one sudden death point, winner take all.

In our last match, the opposing team was short one player on Court Three. My two players warmed up with the one lady who was there, who kept saying, "She's never gonna make it, she's never gonna make it." League rules say a default happens at 10 minutes late. At 10 minutes, my players asked if we should take the default. I looked at the time and it was exactly 10 minutes by cell phone. I told them to give it another minute, just to be sure.

Another minute passes, and she's still not there. I told my players to go ahead and record the default. A minute later we heard, "I'm here, I'm here!!" Sure enough, there she was, needing to cut across five ongoing matches to reach her assigned court. So what did we do?

We played the match, of course. I mean, duh. There's no reason to be nuts about the tardiness rule if the player arrives in a reasonable amount of time and everyone is still there and available to play.

Had she been later, her problem would have been that my players would have left. It was 9 pm on a work night, and they were both planning to leave. There is a point at which you have to just go ahead and default someone. I've done it many times, and I have no remorse. I assume the captains that have defaulted my players feel similarly.

The other thing I might do as a compromise in that situation (if the other player was seriously late but my ladies were still on site) would be that I would agree to play the match, but if it "timed out," then we would go with the default. This resolution isn't authorized by the rules, but I think it is fair. If the other team can beat us fair and square within the 2 hours, then their tardiness didn't matter. If not, then they should bear the consequences of the tardiness, not us.

I also understand you have league rules... but we as a team would be willing to supercede them in order to play. Like I said we would rather win the point than have them handed to us. And I am sure they do not stroll in late... if they come I assume they intended to play. So yes of course you could default them fairly... we just choose not to, and who would know...?


I took just one default this past season. Other team was short a player. Couldn't reach her by cell. We waited 10 minutes; still no word from her. I gave it another minute and then took the default. Turns out she showed up 90 minutes late, having been confused about the match time. The three of us were still there, playing Canadian.

Should we have tried to play the match in 30 minutes? Puh.

Ripper014
12-17-2009, 07:53 PM
I took just one default this past season. Other team was short a player. Couldn't reach her by cell. We waited 10 minutes; still no word from her. I gave it another minute and then took the default. Turns out she showed up 90 minutes late, having been confused about the match time. The three of us were still there, playing Canadian.

Should we have tried to play the match in 30 minutes? Puh.

Don't get your panties in a knot... all I am saying is that when there is an opportunity to play a match we play it. I never said we would not take a default, and I will say it again... we join to play tennis so anytime we can get a match in we play it.

Cindysphinx
12-17-2009, 08:09 PM
Don't get your panties in a knot...

OK, panties unknotted.

It's just that there are some folks here who have suggested in the past that anyone who takes a tardiness default is being less than sporting.

all I am saying is that when there is an opportunity to play a match we play it. I never said we would not take a default, and I will say it again... we join to play tennis so anytime we can get a match in we play it.

Fair enough. Around here, we operate under strict time constraints, so "getting a match in" requires all players involved to be on time.