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Fletch
12-13-2009, 09:20 AM
I have been listening to this book on audio and find it pretty interesting. Its promotes a vegan diet. The facts are amazing, but I have read other books with facts that support other ways to eat too. I am not sure I would want to give up animal protein 100% but I can see making several changes in my diet that would be beneficial, giving up eggs, using rice milk instead etc.

Question is, how do you get started, what's the best way? Where can I find typical meal plans? Its seems simple till you sit down and actually try to eat.

Have you had much success staying on this plan? And what are your thoughts about changing over.

Thanks
Fletch

yemenmocha
12-13-2009, 01:03 PM
I did it for 3 years and my cholesterol went from 225 to 120 in the first 6 months. I lost a lot of weight and was looking almost like I did when I was 18, with the same pant sizes and everything.

It requires a lot of discipline. Now I'm just a lacto-ovo vegetarian and it's much more difficult to maintain ideal body weight (compared to vegan).

Fletch
12-13-2009, 02:29 PM
Wow that's fantastic! A whole food plant based diet sounds like it can be difficult, I would like to give it a try at the beginning of the year. I am in pretty good shape but I would like to shave off a 10 or so pounds.

Anyone else have any experience with this??

yemenmocha
12-13-2009, 03:28 PM
You have to find a range of foods that are vegan that you LIKE and make sure you eat them regularly.

I like Indian curry, so I made a point to go to a nice Indian restaurant every other week.
I also like Thai, and the same procedure as above...
Good Mediterranean places can accommodate this diet as well. Mmmm falafel.

I had a lot of homemade bean burritos with a nice whole wheat tortilla & my favorite salsa inside.

Find good breads, like from a bakery or one of those bread/soup places. I hope you like peanut butter. I got into the "natural" ones and ate it daily.

After about the 3rd week the weight just fell off steadily, with no big changes in exercise routine. I had one or two slips back into meat territory but then stuck to it for the 3 years following.

SystemicAnomaly
12-14-2009, 03:39 AM
I have been listening to this book on audio and find it pretty interesting. Its promotes a vegan diet. The facts are amazing, but I have read other books with facts that support other ways to eat too. I am not sure I would want to give up animal protein 100% but I can see making several changes in my diet that would be beneficial, giving up eggs, using rice milk instead etc...

My own bias would be to eliminate or cut back on meat, particularly pork & red meat, rather than eliminating eggs & milk from my diet. Lot of good nutrients in eggs, milk, low-fat plain yogurt, fish (esp salmon & sardines), and chicken/turkey (esp the white meat).

Rice milk seems like a poor substitute for milk. Milk has quite a bit of high-quality protein (casein & some whey protein). 1% or 2% milk contains a good balance of protein, fat and carbs whereas rice milk is primarily just carbohydrates. Milk is also an excellent source of calcium, vitamin D , & vitamin B-12. It also contains riboflavin and vitamin A. Note that vitamin D intake is particularly important at this time of the year since most of us are not getting much of it from the sun from late Fall thru early Spring.

When buying milk, make sure that it is a brand that doe not contain rBST (synthetic growth hormone). The lower fat milks are relatively low in cholesterol and saturated fats. A better alternative than rice milk for cow's milk would be a fortified OJ that contains vitamin D, calcium, vitamin C, potassium, and some B vitamins. The downside is that this substitute contains on 1/5 the protein found in milk.

SystemicAnomaly
12-14-2009, 04:15 AM
Note that eggs are a relatively cheap source of very high-quality protein. It is also a good source of lecithin. Lecithin is a source of choline, B vitamins & other nutrients. It is important for brain function & liver health. Lecithin is used for our protective myelin sheaths and protects our cells from oxidation. Altho' egg yolks contain a fair amount of cholesterol, the lecithin in the yolk tends to counteract the effects of blood cholesterol.

Much more important than dietary cholesterol is saturated fats. Sat fats have a significantly greater effect on blood cholesterol than dietary cholesterol does. Egg (yolks) are not a major source of sat fats altho' it does contain some. Eggs are very high in vitamin B-12 and riboflavin. They are also an important source of folic acid, vitamin E, phosphorus and other essential nutrients.

Another protein source to consider is whey protein powder, especially whey isolate. Whey protein is a very good complement to egg and casein (milk) protein. (Note that protein content of human breast milk is 65-80% whey, whereas cow milk protein only contains about 20% whey).
.

chess9
12-14-2009, 04:55 AM
I generally agree with S.A. above. I've all but cut out meat from my diet. I eat eggs, cheese, and milk, however. Some occasional chicken and the very rare cheeseburger (I've had one this year!). NO PORK.

Does someone have a link to the China Study? Is this something for sale, or is it free?

-Robert

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 05:14 AM
I decided that vegan was much too extreme for me. I worried that my diet would start to rule me. And existing without cheese was a non-starter. :)

So I eat no chicken, turkey, beef, pork, venison etc. I eat eggs, dairy and seafood, 'cause I figure seafood is heart-friendly and I need an option for when I was in situations where vegetarian offerings are sub-standard. I figured that "cutting back" probably wouldn't work well for me because I would think I was eating small amounts of meat when in fact I wasn't.

I haven't lost weight, but I haven't tried. The main benefit was a plunging cholesterol level and a certain smug feeling that my carbon footprint is smaller.

I found the transition to be . . . interesting. I cook a lot, so I started off trying to modify my favorite recipes to omit the meat or substitute tofu. What a nighmare. Lots of things went straight into the garbage. Now, I make a bunch of good dishes that feature veggies and beans, mostly. Like this one:

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Mushroom-and-Black-Bean-Burritos-107641 (tip: It's better as a fajita than a burrito)

larry10s
12-14-2009, 06:22 AM
i once lost 60 lbs( 212lb 44 in waist --- 152 32 in waist ) . it took a year and was basically a lifestyle change. this was 15 years ago.( age 40 now 56) i combined several appraoches to diets . i tried to stay low glycemic, eat meals of good protein good fat and good carbs 40/30/30 % and exercise regularly. good protein meant no red meat, chicken and fish (mainly salmon and tuna) good carbs meant whole grain and/or low glycemic good fats meant loive oil no butter. egg whites insted of eggs and little cheese.so iwent from a cheese and bacon omelete with hash browns and 2 bagels and cream cheese to an onion mushroom spinach egg white omelete thih sliced tomato and whole wheat or mutigrain toast. mustard instead of ketchup. you get the picture.exercise went from nothing to ultimately running 6-10 miles 4 days a week.
i still stick to those guidelines and my weight varies im 150 now but usually im around 160. and play tennis ,3-4 x week some weight training and run 4-6 miles 2x week
sticking to a 100% vegan diet was too difficult for me and if you are not careful with food combining you can run into nutritional deficiencies.
good luck with your quest and i hope you lose the weight and have a healthy life

Kevin T
12-14-2009, 09:33 AM
Other good alternatives to rice milk are almond milk and hemp milk (my personal fave these days). I'm not a big meat eater, probably 2x/week but I do love seafood. I often get my "red" meat fix from bison/buffalo (actually pretty high in omega-3's and required to be grass-fed) or venison I get from hunting buds. Not a big pork eater(bacon, sausage, ham) but when I'm down South, there's no way I'm leaving without some good bah b que!! You can't beat a good pig pickin'. I would recommend just increasing your fruit/veggie/whole grain intake as a first step. Eat at least one serving of beans/day and aim for 5-7 fruits and veggies. Get the good stuff in you before purging the bad.

yemenmocha
12-14-2009, 12:41 PM
Milk only has the vitamin D because it is fortified. If you're going to go fortified vitamin D you can get it in cereals or some juices, soy milk, or whatever. I hate how people often speak as though milk is some sort of great natural source of Vitamin D when it's not.

Calcium inhibits vitamin D, so again milk isn't such a great choice IMO. There's also the saturated fat in dairy which is the bad fat for you.

Kevin T
12-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Milk only has the vitamin D because it is fortified. If you're going to go fortified vitamin D you can get it in cereals or some juices, soy milk, or whatever. I hate how people often speak as though milk is some sort of great natural source of Vitamin D when it's not.

Calcium inhibits vitamin D, so again milk isn't such a great choice IMO. There's also the saturated fat in dairy which is the bad fat for you.

It's pretty much impossible to find non-Vitamin D milk, unless you're drinking it straight from the cow's teet. Are you talking about high serum calcium levels inhibiting vitamin D? Serum calcium levels aren't necessarily related to calcium intake from food/supplements unless one is mega-dosing. Vitamin D is necessary to absorb calcium from food/supplements. The counter argument is juice, cereals, soy milk only have vitamin D because of fortification.

http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Bone/Bone_Health/Nutrition/default.asp

Fletch
12-14-2009, 03:40 PM
Rice milk seems like a poor substitute for milk. Milk has quite a bit of high-quality protein (casein & some whey protein). 1% or 2% milk contains a good balance of protein, fat and carbs whereas rice milk is primarily just carbohydrates. Milk is also an excellent source of calcium, vitamin D , & vitamin B-12. It also contains riboflavin and vitamin A. Note that vitamin D intake is particularly important at this time of the year since most of us are not getting much of it from the sun from late Fall thru early Spring.


SA, I just finished listening to The China Study and this guy sure does disagree with you on the milk thing. You obviously are pretty knowledgeable about it, but he disagrees totally, of course he is a vegan so he would. I remember when Martina Navratilova wouldn't do the 'got milk' ads because she didn't believe in it also. It might be a good read for you to get the other sides point of view. I am not real big on eggs, cheese and milk anyway so that part should be easy for me. I can see not giving up meat totally, maybe once or twice a month getting a small steak just because I love a good steak. I do agree after listening to the book that you need to supplement with B12 and vitamin D like you said.

Other good alternatives to rice milk are almond milk and hemp milk (my personal fave these days). I'm not a big meat eater, probably 2x/week but I do love seafood. I often get my "red" meat fix from bison/buffalo (actually pretty high in omega-3's and required to be grass-fed) or venison I get from hunting buds. Not a big pork eater(bacon, sausage, ham) but when I'm down South, there's no way I'm leaving without some good bah b que!! You can't beat a good pig pickin'. I would recommend just increasing your fruit/veggie/whole grain intake as a first step. Eat at least one serving of beans/day and aim for 5-7 fruits and veggies. Get the good stuff in you before purging the bad.

Kevin I'm with you on the BBQ, I went to college in North Carolina and I have to stop at Lexington BBQ every time I go back!!! Sound advise on the fruits/veggies and whole grains, something we can all probably do. But it might be good to ease into this, there are going to be times where I may be stuck and not have a choice.

Another good book on the subject is Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn.

I do think diet had much more to do with preventing diseases than the doctors really want us to understand. There is a lot of money to be made in disease.

Fletch
12-14-2009, 03:58 PM
Does someone have a link to the China Study? Is this something for sale, or is it free?

-Robert

Robert,
Here is a good we site, they have a newsletter that I just signed up for.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/
This doctor is referred several times in The China Study.

Ano
12-14-2009, 04:07 PM
aim for 5-7 fruits and veggies.

Bingo. Good to see you still posting on this forum, mate!

WildVolley
12-14-2009, 04:13 PM
I have to admit that I'm a big fan of saturated animal fats and eggs (I'm still waiting for that big check from the egg council). Give me butter or lard any day over margarine, corn oils, and trans-fats.

I've consumed, and continue to consume eggs almost daily, and I cook with butter and olive oil. My cholesterol level is normal and I have higher than normal levels of HDL. My brother who was eating 6 eggs every morning had the same result.

I don't know how much faith to put in it, but the Framingham study found no relationship between the consumption of dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol. That's part of the study that hasn't been highlighted.

A lot of Evolutionary diet people are also noticing that their cholesterol numbers are improving as they eat more saturated animal fat. So don't use cholesterol as an excuse to stop eating eggs.

Cindysphinx
12-14-2009, 05:05 PM
I eat a lot of eggs and my cholesterol fell anyway. I think the animal fats (and maybe hormones and antibiotics too?) are bigger contributors to high cholesterol.

Do I have science to back that up? Nope! :)

WildVolley
12-14-2009, 05:17 PM
I eat a lot of eggs and my cholesterol fell anyway. I think the animal fats (and maybe hormones and antibiotics too?) are bigger contributors to high cholesterol.

Do I have science to back that up? Nope! :)

Yep, our examples are simply anecdotal. However, attempts to track what people eat and then find statistical correlations seem to support our anecdotal evidence that dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol aren't really tightly linked as in the popular imagination.

I agree with you that I'm suspicious of the heavy use of antibiotics and synthetic hormones in many farm animals. If I could afford it, I'd stick with grass fed beef from small farms and wild game. Even the farmed salmon seems to be sketchy at this point.

yemenmocha
12-14-2009, 05:23 PM
this is an amazing forum


"...so don't use cholesterol as an excuse to stop eating eggs..."

WildVolley
12-14-2009, 06:17 PM
this is an amazing forum


"...so don't use cholesterol as an excuse to stop eating eggs..."

Yes, amazing.:shock:

You might want to visit the egg council again.:twisted:

Test your reading comprehension. Multiple studies show either no increase in overall blood cholesterol levels from eating eggs or a small (almost statistically insignificant) increase. And a number show increased HDL-levels when consuming eggs.

Conclusion? The only effect of eating eggs with respect to cholesterol seems to be an increase in HDL lipoprotein, which is usually taken as a positive marker against heart disease.

yemenmocha
12-14-2009, 06:38 PM
brother has 6 of them each morning huh

WildVolley
12-14-2009, 07:44 PM
brother has 6 of them each morning huh

Yeah, he used to eat that way. I think that's a bit excessive. I think he was trying to bulk up for some reason.

I normally eat two eggs a day about five days a week. I'm not afraid of the yolk, and couldn't see just eating the white. It used to be common knowledge that egg yolks are terrible for you, but the studies don't seem to show it is a problem. Google it. I think you'll see that eggs really aren't scary and won't lead to you keeling over at an early age from a heart attack.

When the Atkins diet became big and studies showed that eggs were probably wrongly vilified, the prices really shot up. Even with that, they're inexpensive protein. I believe that tennis players and vegetarians should consider eating some eggs as part of their diet.

get it in
12-14-2009, 08:17 PM
My wife was really into the China study diet a couple of years ago. If this is something that you have the discipline to continue then it can work for you. I tried it but I wasn't able to keep it up. It was just to difficult. I lost 10 lbs this year by simply eating slightly less and including high intensity exercise like cycling twice a week for 45 minutes at a med-fast pace. No sodas or any extraneous sugars either (like desserts).
I did read the book and was pretty impressed with the results. I don't dispute them entirely but I'm not totally convinced it's doable. Those people don't have anything to eat because they lack the money. In the United States, food is so plentiful and relatively inexpensive (try Japan). It's not so easy to do that diet here since there's so much available at your local supermarket. Like I said, if you have the discipline and the conviction, I'm pretty sure this will work much like the South Beach diet, etc. Just my 2 cents.

bee
12-14-2009, 08:37 PM
I am familiar with the book, The China Study. Limiting one's intake of animal fat and animal protein is certainly beneficial.

A much better book, in my opinion, is The Okinawa Diet Plan. Fruits, vegetables and fish. Check it out. It's a much more enjoyable and infomative read.

sureshs
12-15-2009, 06:36 AM
I eat a lot of eggs and my cholesterol fell anyway. I think the animal fats (and maybe hormones and antibiotics too?) are bigger contributors to high cholesterol.

Do I have science to back that up? Nope! :)

I had one doctor tell me no more than 2 eggs per week. Then another said, eat it several times, it doesn't matter for cholesterol. Who knows.

Kevin T
12-15-2009, 07:16 AM
Bingo. Good to see you still posting on this forum, mate!

You too, Ano. It's a rarity for me. Work, my little girl (and another on the way) keep me very busy! Take care and good to see you on the boards.

Kevin T
12-15-2009, 07:22 AM
Yes, amazing.:shock:

You might want to visit the egg council again.:twisted:

Test your reading comprehension. Multiple studies show either no increase in overall blood cholesterol levels from eating eggs or a small (almost statistically insignificant) increase. And a number show increased HDL-levels when consuming eggs.

Conclusion? The only effect of eating eggs with respect to cholesterol seems to be an increase in HDL lipoprotein, which is usually taken as a positive marker against heart disease.

Agreed. When some people's bodies produce up to 8000mg endogenous cholesterol/day, a couple of eggs is a literal drop in the bucket, IMHO. I probably eat 7-8 eggs/week and my total cholesterol is <100 with HDL typically >50. I can thank my Mom for that. But I also eat beans every day, oatmeal every day and 7-10 fruits and veggies.

That's the funny thing about saturated fat...it raises total cholesterol but also HDL...and it tastes so, so good! :) In the end, as with everything in life, it comes down to moderation. The French can do it so why can't we? Because our activity levels are pitiful and our portion sizes are gargantuan.

borg number one
12-15-2009, 07:40 AM
I'm not vegan, in that I do eat cheese (melted only, I'm picky) and have a protein shake every morning (whey protein, GNC vanilla flavored, but I can't stand ever drinking PLAIN white milk).

Yet, I am pure vegetarian, eating no meat, poultry, seafood or anything with lard in it at all. I also do not eat eggs at all. I've been vegetarian my whole life, since I was born into a traditional Hindu family.

I swear by the no meat/poultry/seafood diet that I've grown up with. My cholesterol levels have remained very good, and at 41, I'm stronger and as fit or more fit now than I was at 18-20. I have added muscle without adding fat to my body, and can run great long distance or short distance and can still play some mean tennis. I'm just under 6 feet and weigh 165-170 pounds, whereas when I was 18-20, I weighed about 150 lbs, but had much less muscle. I think that when I was growing up, I burned so many calories playing tennis all the time that I had a hard time building muscle strength.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two cents in by saying that for me, being vegetarian has been a "blessing" for me, as it has been central in my physical, spiritual and mental well-being. I think it's the main reason I've stayed young both physically and in many ways, mentally as well.

I have constant energy and feel much the same way as I did when I was 20 years of age. I don't see how that could have happened if I had eaten a traditional meat-based Western diet, which seems to work fine for athletes until their mid-20's. Yet, after that, most people put on a lot of weight and fat, despite substantial exercise. There's only so much exercise will do for you.

Cindysphinx
12-15-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm not vegan, in that I do eat cheese (melted only, I'm picky) and have a protein shake every morning (whey protein, GNC vanilla flavored, but I can't stand ever drinking PLAIN white milk).

Yet, I am pure vegetarian, eating no meat, poultry, seafood or anything with lard in it at all. I also do not eat eggs at all. I've been vegetarian my whole life, since I was born into a traditional Hindu family.

I swear by the no meat/poultry/seafood diet that I've grown up with. My cholesterol levels have remained very good, and at 41, I'm stronger and as fit or more fit now than I was at 18-20. I have added muscle without adding fat to my body, and can run great long distance or short distance and can still play some mean tennis. I'm just under 6 feet and weigh 165-170 pounds, whereas when I was 18-20, I weighed about 150 lbs, but had much less muscle. I think that when I was growing up, I burned so many calories playing tennis all the time that I had a hard time building muscle strength.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two cents in by saying that for me, being vegetarian has been a "blessing" for me, as it has been central in my physical, spiritual and mental well-being. I think it's the main reason I've stayed young both physically and in many ways, mentally as well.

I have constant energy and feel much the same way as I did when I was 20 years of age. I don't see how that could have happened if I had eaten a traditional meat-based Western diet, which seems to work fine for athletes until their mid-20's. Yet, after that, most people put on a lot of weight and fat, despite substantial exercise. There's only so much exercise will do for you.

I'm about to expose my ignorance, but here goes . . .

If you are eating a Hindu diet, what does that look like? Lots of beans, veggies and rice? What style of food is this (curries?)?

I ask because I'm always looking for new options.

I'll quickly add that I agree with you that a vegetarian diet is very energizing. I never would have thought so before I tried my own version of it.

Cindy -- off to make those Black Bean & Mushroom Fajitas

borg number one
12-15-2009, 01:30 PM
Cindy, yes, for me its lots of homemade food. I mix Indian food mostly, with Italian food (homemade pizzas, salads, pasta, breads), and some Mexican food (tortillas/black beans/vegetables/jalapenos/avocadoes, etc.).

As far as Indian food. See the link below to see what kinds of foods I eat primarily. It's spicy, and SO GOOD!
I eat lots of rice, as well as foods made with wheat flour primarily, legumes, vegetables, and many different spices, cooked only in canola oil primarily (that oil for health reasons).

See wikipedia on Indian Cuisine and see the section especially on South Indian food. Of course, for me, take out all meat, seafood, and poultry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cuisine

I will say that it's not that easy to make some of these dishes and it takes practice and experience for sure. It's usually passed down from grandmother, to mother, to daughter, sisters, daughter in law, etc..The men tend to learn too by spending lots of time in the kitchen and actually lots of men are quite good at cooking as well. Lots of men and women work together to prepare meals for weddings, etc. in the state I am from: Kerala, India (southwestern coast). I tell my family all the time, this has to be the best food in the world!

Kevin T
12-15-2009, 02:35 PM
Cindy, yes, for me its lots of homemade food. I mix Indian food mostly, with Italian food (homemade pizzas, salads, pasta, breads), and some Mexican food (tortillas/black beans/vegetables/jalapenos/avocadoes, etc.).

As far as Indian food. See some of these links below to see what kinds of foods I eat primarily. It's spicy, and SO GOOD!
I eat lots of rice, as well as foods made with wheat flour primarily, legumes, vegetables, and many different spices, cooked only in canola oil primarily (that oil for health reasons).

See wikipedia on Indian Cuisine and see the section especially on South Indian food. Of course, for me, take out all meat, seafood, and poultry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cuisine

I will say that it's not that easy to make some of these dishes and it takes practice and experience for sure. It's usually passed down from grandmother, to mother, to daughter, sisters, daughter in law, etc..The men tend to learn too by spending lots of time in the kitchen and actually lots of men are quite good at cooking as well. Lots of men and women work together to prepare meals for weddings, etc. in the state I am from: Kerala, India (southwestern coast). I tell my family all the time, this has to be the best food in the world!


I envy your cooking skills, Borg. It's hard to approximate southeast Asian/Indian food for country-born white folks like me. I LOVE Indian, Thai and Vietnamese food but attempts to cook it at home always fall flat. My Indian friends tell me it's all about fresh spices. I go to the Indian grocery but I still can't get the combos right. It's actually cheaper for me to just go get take-out. :) Fortunately for me, I'm gold with Italian food and my wife is Mexican-American and makes good stuff.

borg number one
12-15-2009, 03:21 PM
LOL, thanks KevinT. I'm lucky that my wife and my mom (who lives just less than 2 miles away along with my father) are both REALLY GOOD Indian cooks. My wife learned how to make all these dishes over time from my mom. I am one lucky man, I must say.

I tend to only make pizza (homemade, mostly wheat crust), spaghetti, and tortillas with black beans. I'm good at what I make, but I don't know how to make many of the Indian dishes I really love. In my experience, some of those literally take years to master, because they are time consuming, multi-step dishes, that require lots of different spices in the right proportions.

For you, this is what I would suggest. Find a really good Indian restaurant and order some of their healthier dishes (not too much oil or cream) and eat those as "take out". Then at home, you can learn to at least make rice and some of the wheat bread dishes (like plain paratha) so that you have those "staples" that you can combine with one of the many vegetable dishes.

http://www.indianfoodforever.com/indian-breads/indian-paratha-recipes.html

That will be a good start for you. Remember spicy food is good for digestion too, in my opinion. Also, I really think some of the indian spices have real health benefits (ginger, turmeric). I think they have "ayurvedic" properties as well (herbs that assist with health).

See: http://www.ayurvedicdietsolutions.com/Ayurveda-Herbs.php (I'm not really into total ayurvedic medicine, but my grandparents SWORE by it.) For example, turmeric is that "yellow powder" that is used in Indian foods that add that yellow color in certain dishes. You already know about ginger I'm sure. It has been shown that many Indian spices/foods are very high in anti-oxidants.

http://www.fatfreekitchen.com/nutrition/antioxidant-foods.html

Cindysphinx
12-15-2009, 08:49 PM
I found a good Indian grocer and some good recipe books. I am gradually getting the hang of it.

My biggest problem is that everything I can make tastes basically they same -- tomato, curry, beans. It's good, but if you throw three of those dishes onto the table, they all blend together.

It's going to be a long journey with the Indian cooking.

Cindy -- who thinks you haven't lived until you've had a good Samosa

borg number one
12-16-2009, 07:38 AM
Good for you Cindy. As far as dishes tasting the same, try changing up the vegetables as much as possible, and combine breads and rice as well. Plus, don't use too much of the same spices in very dish, that may help you get some more "variety of flavors".

I think you've started getting the hang of Indian food, and yes, samosas are amazing! I love the spicy ones and eat a few of those every month. We buy some from the Indian store (homemade though, since some customers make them and sell them to the Owner) when we go there. Great stuff!

SystemicAnomaly
12-16-2009, 07:53 AM
this is an amazing forum


"...so don't use cholesterol as an excuse to stop eating eggs..."

Actually, I would agree with that statement. The cholesterol phobia concerning eggs yolks appears to be unfounded. Did you read what I said about lecithin? How about what has been said about saturated fats?

On another note, there are quite a few health & nutrition experts out there that have been saying for more than a decade now that the long-cherished cholesterol theory regarding cardiovascular diseases is seriously flawed, possibly even a hoax. Check out Section 7 (page 331 of the 13th printing) of Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill by Udo Erasmus.

http://www.udoerasmus.com/fatsmain.htm

You might also want to take a look at what others have to say about this. One of these experts is Dr. Uffe Ravnskov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uffe_Ravnskov).

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

.

SystemicAnomaly
12-16-2009, 08:06 AM
I don't actually know if lecithin's beneficial effect on cholesterol levels has been rigorously proven in the scientific community. Try your own search on this. Here are a couple of sources to consider:

http://www.essortment.com/lifestyle/benefitsrisksl_snjo.htm

http://www.cell.com/biophysj/abstract/S0006-3495%2878%2985501-5

.

SystemicAnomaly
12-16-2009, 08:20 AM
Milk only has the vitamin D because it is fortified. If you're going to go fortified vitamin D you can get it in cereals or some juices, soy milk, or whatever. I hate how people often speak as though milk is some sort of great natural source of Vitamin D when it's not.

Calcium inhibits vitamin D, so again milk isn't such a great choice IMO. There's also the saturated fat in dairy which is the bad fat for you.

You are correct about milk be fortified with vit D. Note that I never indicated that milk was a natural source of D. However, pretty much all milk (at least all milk sold in the the US) has been fortified with vit D since the 1930s. Very few foods are actually significant sources of natural vit D. The sun is the best source for production of this essential nutrient.

The vitamin D in milk and in some fortified OJs is supposed to improve the the body's ability to utilize the calcium. Are you twisting this around to say that the calcium inhibits vitamin D? Are there credible sources that say this?

On the saturated fat issue -- recall that I recommended 1% (or 2%) milk and low-fat yogurt. The saturated fat content is a mere 1.5g per serving. Even if you buy into the cholesterol theory of CVD, moderate levels of sat fats are not unhealthy. Not all sat fats are evil, some are even beneficial. Take a look into lauric acid and stearic acid as examples of this.

.

beernutz
10-25-2011, 12:21 PM
I have been listening to this book on audio and find it pretty interesting. Its promotes a vegan diet. The facts are amazing, but I have read other books with facts that support other ways to eat too. I am not sure I would want to give up animal protein 100% but I can see making several changes in my diet that would be beneficial, giving up eggs, using rice milk instead etc.

Question is, how do you get started, what's the best way? Where can I find typical meal plans? Its seems simple till you sit down and actually try to eat.

Have you had much success staying on this plan? And what are your thoughts about changing over.

Thanks
Fletch
The results Colin Campbell claims from The China Study are nearly a complete fiction. Read Denise Minger's analysis of it here http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/, here http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/09/02/the-china-study-wheat-and-heart-disease-oh-my/ and here http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/07/31/one-year-later-the-china-study-revisited-and-re-bashed/ and if you need more convincing search for Chris Masterjohn's blog entry on the bogus claims made by Campbell. IMO, Campbell is little more than a vegetarian zealot.

r2473
10-25-2011, 12:55 PM
"a billion chinese can't be wrong"

beernutz
10-25-2011, 02:38 PM
"a billion chinese can't be wrong"
They weren't wrong, they just weren't what Campbell said they were.

r2473
10-25-2011, 02:40 PM
They weren't wrong, they just weren't what Campbell said they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_N1OjGhIFc

beernutz
10-25-2011, 07:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_N1OjGhIFc
Heh, yeah I've seen the Coors Light commercials too.

Posture Guy
10-27-2011, 03:21 AM
beernutz is right, The China Study has some serious and fundamental flaws.

For a contrarian viewpoint, read some of the articles at the Weston Price Foundation.

re milk, I used to think milk was bad. Had to stop drinking it when I was in junior high, was diagnosed as 'lactose intolerant'. After doing some reading, I wanted to experiment with raw milk (unpasteurized). Started with that about 3 months ago, and my body responds VERY well to it. Read about it at the Price foundation.

I think pasteurized milk is a toxic food. cooking the milk does remove bacteria, including the beneficial bacteria needed in the milk to help us digest the proteins in it. It's a fundamentally different substance than raw milk. Just a shame our government has seen fit to make it such a pain in the butt to get the stuff.

Anyway, for me, at one point I went on a 100% vegan diet for about a year, and for 4-6 months I was 100% raw. I think some people can thrive on that metabolically, but I'm not one of them. I did really, really poorly on that diet. I do best when I'm eating about 80% vegan and adding in about 20% of my calories in the form of "clean" animal proteins. Organic raw milk, organic grass fed beef, organic free range chicken/turkey, etc....

My body has been detoxed to the point where I can absolutely feel the difference eating organic grass fed beef or regular non-organic grain fed beef. Can't handle the latter, I feel horrible now when I eat it. The fatty acid ratio is inverted and it's so loaded with chemicals that my body has to expend a lot of metabolic effort to outprocess it all.

Most people DO need to eat way more greens, vegetables and fruits. But you don't have to turn it into a religion.

GuyClinch
10-27-2011, 11:54 PM
It's not abundantly clear that chloresterol causes heart disease. Nutrition science is all over the place - correlational studies instead of experiments. It's ugly.

I wouldn't give up animal protein as a guy - its considered a superior blend of amino acids and thus better for building and keeping muscle. Most vegetable protein is missing key amino acids - and thus is inferior.

I think the one thing that all nutritionists agree on is that Salmon is awesome. No one agrees on anything else - I am not kidding.

Butter healthly or not? This is not really decided.
Whole grains? I have heard from alot of people who say whole grains are BAD for you.
Soy? Good or Bad. I lean towards bad - but that same logic can apply to grains..

Also the other consensus opinion is that processed meats suck. P.

Alejandro Lanza
11-02-2011, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=beernutz;6081660]... Read Denise Minger's analysis of it here QUOTE]

Who is Denise Minger?

beernutz
11-02-2011, 08:43 AM
[quote=beernutz;6081660]... Read Denise Minger's analysis of it here QUOTE]

Who is Denise Minger?
She is a person who took the time to study the data collected and the statistical analyses performed on it by Colin Campbell, et al, which formed the basis for the claims he made about the benefits of primarily plant-based versus primarily animal-based diets in part of this book, The China Study.

In short, she started with the fact that he made causative claims based on observational (not experimental) data, which he himself acknowledges is not good science, then went on to point out that Campbell even misinterpreted his own data, which did not in fact support his claims as he thought it had. She is not the only one who has done this type of critical analysis of The China Study data but her work is widely regarded as some of the most exhaustive with regard to debunking Campbell's claims. I'd recommend that you read those blog entries and form your own conclusion about whether her criticisms of Campbell are valid or not.

I also believe she's semi-hot and eats a raw food, primitive-type diet, based on her bio.

Posture Guy
11-02-2011, 09:05 AM
[quote=Alejandro Lanza;6093910]
She is a person who took the time to study the data collected and the statistical analyses performed on it by Colin Campbell, et al, which formed the basis for the claims he made about the benefits of primarily plant-based versus primarily animal-based diets in part of this book, The China Study.

In short, she started with the fact that he made causative claims based on observational (not experimental) data, which he himself acknowledges is not good science, then went on to point out that Campbell even misinterpreted his own data, which did not in fact support his claims as he thought it had. She is not the only one who has done this type of critical analysis of The China Study data but her work is widely regarded as some of the most exhaustive with regard to debunking Campbell's claims. I'd recommend that you read those blog entries and form your own conclusion about whether her criticisms of Campbell are valid or not.

I also believe she's semi-hot and eats a raw food, primitive-type diet, based on her bio.


Completely concur, great post. Read through the info on both sides of the debate critically, but for me, I went from drinking Campbell's Kool Aid to believing that his work is fundamentally flawed, and that he is drawing conclusions and making recommendations that even his own data does not support.

spacediver
11-02-2011, 10:17 AM
I recently discovered Minger, and am looking forward to reading through her stuff.

Posture Guy
11-02-2011, 10:25 AM
It's funny, you've got the China Study folks on one side, and the Weston Price Foundation folks on the other. For me, I'm inclined to believe that a nutritious diet is probably somewhere in the middle.

minimize or eliminate processed foods. Eat an abundance of raw greens, vegetables, fruits, seeds and nuts, eat some animal protein but keep it "clean" (no factory farmed/chemically ridden junk), minimize the intake of grains and flours.

When I eat like that, I feel better, lose body fat and perform better on the court. I tried to go 100% raw/vegan for a time. May work for some, sure didn't for me.

beernutz
11-02-2011, 08:41 PM
It's funny, you've got the China Study folks on one side, and the Weston Price Foundation folks on the other. For me, I'm inclined to believe that a nutritious diet is probably somewhere in the middle.

minimize or eliminate processed foods. Eat an abundance of raw greens, vegetables, fruits, seeds and nuts, eat some animal protein but keep it "clean" (no factory farmed/chemically ridden junk), minimize the intake of grains and flours.

When I eat like that, I feel better, lose body fat and perform better on the court. I tried to go 100% raw/vegan for a time. May work for some, sure didn't for me.
You just described my low carb diet except that I don't eat an abundance of fruit, although I do eat some, and I don't eat any grains or flours. For full disclosure, I do try to eat about two-thirds of my calories from fat except for those nasty man-made fats like trans which I completely avoid.

r2473
11-02-2011, 08:56 PM
You just described my low carb diet except that I don't eat an abundance of fruit, although I do eat some, and I don't eat any grains or flours. For full disclosure, I do try to eat about two-thirds of my calories from fat except for those nasty man-made fats like trans which I completely avoid.

Is this just when you are on a diet or are you planning on living the rest of your life like this?

beernutz
11-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Is this just when you are on a diet or are you planning on living the rest of your life like this?
All the live long day till the end of time, mine anyway. The diet isn't for everybody but it most definitely is for me.

Posture Guy
11-03-2011, 02:36 AM
yeah, I don't eat a lot of fruit, but I eat some. And almost exclusively low glycemic stuff like berries and melon.

and while I don't completely avoid flour, I eat it very rarely.

Alejandro Lanza
11-03-2011, 09:46 AM
Thanks Beernutz. I followed the link and thought to myself 'but this is just some blogger chick' and wanted to confirm if i was missing anything here.

Posture Guy
11-03-2011, 09:49 AM
ah, the blogosphere. There are some absolute gems there, and then a lot of pure drivel. Her stuff is pretty good, I think.

r2473
11-03-2011, 09:58 AM
All the live long day till the end of time, mine anyway. The diet isn't for everybody but it most definitely is for me.

Any idea how many carb grams you eat daily on average? What % of your total calories are from carbs?

66% of your total calories are fat calories? Are you sure?

beernutz
11-04-2011, 10:07 AM
Any idea how many carb grams you eat daily on average? What % of your total calories are from carbs?

66% of your total calories are fat calories? Are you sure?

I try to keep my ratios of carbs/protein/fat at <10%/25%/>65% with total calories around 1.8k to 2k because that's what works for me. Assuming 10% of 2000 calories, that works out to about 50 grams of carbs, mostly from vegetables and some fruit and nuts. I can eat more carbs and sometimes do but I never eat bread, grains, or starches like potatoes. For a treat I will sometimes eat a bit of really dark chocolate with some almonds but that really isn't that many net carbs, which is total carbs minus fiber.

I've used food tracking software to confirm the percentages. I get my fat up doing things like supplementing coconut oil, adding quite a bit of whipping cream to my coffee, eating high fat fruit like avocado daily, and eating a breakfast pizza quiche I make which is 8%/22%/70% and extremely delicious if I do say so myself. I also make a low carb cheesecake with a pecan crust that is quite yummy, and I was a cheesecake-oholic before going low carb.

My goal now is to cut body fat into the single digits while retaining muscle mass so I'm experimenting with intermittent fasting using the EatStopEat plan once a week because of what I've read at leangains.com from Martin Berkman's blog and proteinpower.com from Dr. Michael Eade's blog.

beernutz
11-04-2011, 10:25 AM
yeah, I don't eat a lot of fruit, but I eat some. And almost exclusively low glycemic stuff like berries and melon.

and while I don't completely avoid flour, I eat it very rarely.
We are pretty close then. My wife loves strawberries so they are almost always available in our house when in season. Cantaloupe is also low GI so I'll have those too. Avocado is also a very tasty and flexible fruit I eat regularly. I also squeeze lime juice into my Coke Zero (especially when there's also Captain Morgan in there).

Cutting out grains was probably harder for me than cutting out sugar but now I really don't miss them at all.

r2473
11-04-2011, 10:43 AM
I try to keep my ratios of carbs/protein/fat at <10%/25%/>65% with total calories around 1.8k to 2k because that's what works for me.

1) Carbohydrate is needed to burn fat completely. In the absense of carbohydrate, the fat breakdown is incomplete, and somethng called "keytone bodies" form.

2) When there is inadequate energy from carbohydrate being supplied, the body (the liver) will convert protein into carbohydrate.

I'd be surprised if 10% (50 grams or 200 calories) of carbohydrates meets a minimum requirement for your body to do its basic functions. But you exercise as well, making your carbohydrate need even greater.

beernutz
11-04-2011, 11:02 AM
1) Carbohydrate is needed to burn fat completely. In the absense of carbohydrate, the fat breakdown is incomplete, and somethng called "keytone bodies" form.

2) When there is inadequate energy from carbohydrate being supplied, the body (the liver) will convert protein into carbohydrate.

I'd be surprised if 10% (50 grams or 200 calories) of carbohydrates meets a minimum requirement for your body to do its basic functions. But you exercise as well, making your carbohydrate need even greater.
It is actually spelled ketone, and yes I'm aware of the process. Your body and brain can run quite well on ketones in the absence of blood glucose.

Actually in the process of gluconeogenisis both the liver and to some extent the kidneys can convert protein and fat to glucose.

You'd be wrong then because your body has ZERO need for CHO. Another way of saying that is that there are no known deficiency diseases associated with low levels of carbohydrates as there are with both protein (for the essential amino acids) and for certain fats which the body needs.

r2473
11-04-2011, 11:25 AM
You'd be wrong then because your body has ZERO need for CHO. Another way of saying that is that there are no known deficiency diseases associated with low levels of carbohydrates as there are with both protein (for the essential amino acids) and for certain fats which the body needs.

CHO = carbohydrates, right?

Well, I suppose you could say that its not necessary to ingest carbohydrates directly as your body can "make them" on its own. And it will do just that. It's just a very "expensive" way to get carbohydrates.

So if part of your protein intake is being converted, I wonder what you "actual" net protein is.

Don't get me wrong, I could care less if you choose to eat a diet of straight dirt. Makes no difference to me. I just think its strange and pretty inefficient way to fuel your body for activity. But I don't think you are going to suffer health issues. Now performance issues is another matter.

beernutz
11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
CHO = carbohydrates, right?

Well, I suppose you could say that its not necessary to ingest carbohydrates directly as your body can "make them" on its own. And it will do just that. It's just a very "expensive" way to get carbohydrates.

So if part of your protein intake is being converted, I wonder what you "actual" net protein is.

Don't get me wrong, I could care less if you choose to eat a diet of straight dirt. Makes no difference to me. I just think its strange and pretty inefficient way to fuel your body for activity. But I don't think you are going to suffer health issues. Now performance issues is another matter.
Yup, CHO = carbohydrates

Since I'm eating about 25% protein that equates to (2000kcal *.25 / 4) about 125 grams of the stuff. The RDA for protein for adults is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight per day which for me at 77.3 kgs (170 lbs) is about a 62 gram requirement. I guess eating twice the RDA is probably sufficient.

There are many other reasons besides weight loss for why low carb is actually a very good diet such as improved blood profile markers. There definitely was an adaptation period I had to go through as my body learned to run efficiently on different fuel which really shouldn't come as a surprise since I'd spend 50+ years running it on something else. Now however I have at least as much stamina as I had before starting my diet and I'm much quicker after shedding 25 lbs.

Similarly, I could really care less what you or anyone else eats as long as it makes you happy. Eat your body weight in white bread and skittles if that's what knocks your socks off. I will say that strange is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think it is strange for people to talk about and recommend so-called "balanced" diets that are 60% or even more carbs. Where is the balance in that?

I can't remember who said it but a great quote I read recently is that current nutrition science is about where our understanding of the physical sciences was in the middle ages.

r2473
11-04-2011, 12:22 PM
It sounds to me like you are going from one extreme to the other.

I prefer moderation. Isn't very sexy, but its effective nonetheless.

beernutz
11-04-2011, 03:02 PM
It sounds to me like you are going from one extreme to the other.

I prefer moderation. Isn't very sexy, but its effective nonetheless.
I am going from the standard American diet (SAD) which I've eaten all my life to low carb. From my perspective, that is going from the status quo which is unfortunately not working for vast numbers of Americans given the growing obesity rate to something I know works. It really isn't that extreme if you look back at what humans ate more than 100 years ago. In my opinion, what I'm doing is a great example of moderation--I am just moderating my carbohydrate intake to a level that works for me. Anything else would be extreme for me.

r2473
11-04-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm not so sure about that. My reading says that, in the early 1900's, we consumed lots of carbs. On the average, 500 grams per day. But, in those days, whole grains dominated the carbohydrate landscape and we were also far more physically active.

Carb consumption declined steadily (as whole grain consumption declined) until about 1960 when we started to see carb consumption climb again, but instead of whole grain, it was in the form of highly processed, sweetened foods.

Also in those 100 years, these same americans have been eating more calories each and every day (estimates say over 500 more each day) and at the same time decreasing their activity levels, living a more sedentary lifestyle, which requires fewer calories.

So, what has been contributing to obesity? Carbs? The types of carbs? The amount of calories? The lower activity levels? Probably all of the above.

On a side note, the thing I really hate about the popular glycemic index is how complex it gets when you start combining foods. Sure, white bread is high on the GI. But what if it is eaten with a hamburger patty? Well then it goes down quite a lot. And this is how people normally eat anyway.

Again, tough to beat moderation.

beernutz
11-04-2011, 06:45 PM
I'm not so sure about that. My reading says that, in the early 1900's, we consumed lots of carbs. On the average, 500 grams per day. But, in those days, whole grains dominated the carbohydrate landscape and we were also far more physically active.

Carb consumption declined steadily (as whole grain consumption declined) until about 1960 when we started to see carb consumption climb again, but instead of whole grain, it was in the form of highly processed, sweetened foods.

Also in those 100 years, these same americans have been eating more calories each and every day (estimates say over 500 more each day) and at the same time decreasing their activity levels, living a more sedentary lifestyle, which requires fewer calories.

So, what has been contributing to obesity? Carbs? The types of carbs? The amount of calories? The lower activity levels? Probably all of the above.

On a side note, the thing I really hate about the popular glycemic index is how complex it gets when you start combining foods. Sure, white bread is high on the GI. But what if it is eaten with a hamburger patty? Well then it goes down quite a lot. And this is how people normally eat anyway.

Again, tough to beat moderation.
Like I've said more times than I care to remember, if moderation or [whatever] works for you then more power to you. It did not work for me.

r2473
11-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Like I've said more times than I care to remember, if moderation or [whatever] works for you then more power to you. It did not work for me.

Ya, sorry.

I guess I was responding to your previous post and suggesting that what you are doing IS pretty extreme ESPECIALLY if we compare it to 100 years ago. Not arguing that people were particularly healthy 100 years ago, but taken as a whole, they weren't fat / obese. And I think that's what we are talking about here.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that you should not be doing what you are doing or that it is even unhealthy. But I do think that it is extreme (50 grams of carbs is extreme).

My side point is that moderation seems to work for pretty much everyone that really practices moderation AND doesn't already have a pre-existing condition. There are people that have gone so far that stronger action needs to be taken. Perhaps that is you.

Nuke
11-05-2011, 02:38 PM
Average lifespan in China: 73.1 years.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=average+lifespan+in+china

Average lifespan in the USA: 78.1 years.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=average+lifespan+in+the+usa

Perhaps the Chinese should adopt the American diet.

beernutz
11-05-2011, 04:06 PM
Ya, sorry.

I guess I was responding to your previous post and suggesting that what you are doing IS pretty extreme ESPECIALLY if we compare it to 100 years ago. Not arguing that people were particularly healthy 100 years ago, but taken as a whole, they weren't fat / obese. And I think that's what we are talking about here.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that you should not be doing what you are doing or that it is even unhealthy. But I do think that it is extreme (50 grams of carbs is extreme).

My side point is that moderation seems to work for pretty much everyone that really practices moderation AND doesn't already have a pre-existing condition. There are people that have gone so far that stronger action needs to be taken. Perhaps that is you.
I didn't think you were preaching or trying to convert me. I thought it was a pretty level-headed discussion and debate, at least compared to many I've had on other forums.

I don't know how old you are but I found when I hit my mid 40s it was much harder to keep the love handles off, no matter how much I counted calories. I doubt anybody but me thought I was overweight at 195 when I started low carbing. That's because compared to most of the people I work with and many that I play tennis with I looked thin.

But I'd stayed between 190 and 200 for the last decade after running marathons and a 17:19 5k in my 30s at 160 pounds so I knew what thin on me looked like. While I didn't want to go that low again I knew I wanted to drop the extra body fat I'd accumulated in the last decade despite playing running and played singles several times a week and counting calories.

Posture Guy
11-05-2011, 04:36 PM
my diet is definitely more in line with beernutz (sans the coke zero, I avoid any sodas, especially with aspartame).

I don't count calories so I have no idea what my ratios are, but for the most part the only carbs I get are low glycemic fruits, and those found in veggies, beans and lentils. About one day a week I'll have a 'cheat day' and eat whatever I want. Sometimes that some pizza, or maybe some tacos from a nearby place that is pretty amazing. Or I freely admit to having a weakness for the carrot cake from Whole Foods. Will have that about once a month. The rest of the days, no flour at all of any kind. I just feel better off it, and at 50 I'm with beernutz, gets harder and harder to keep the waist size maintained. At 6'0", I'm just a hair under a 34" waist, would like to drop another inch there and then I'm good. I'm currently around 182, but think I'd be optimal around 175-178. A few years ago I got down to 165-170, and that was too thin, and I felt weak.

re what is extreme, don't look at what people ate 100 years ago. Look at what they ate back when we were getting our genetic coding, several thousand years ago, prior to the advent of farming. When our ancestors ate what they could forage, trap or kill, I'd venture they ate very few carbs relative to proteins and fats.

AdamCapriola
11-06-2011, 10:49 AM
I went vegan immediately after reading the China Study and haven't looked back. It took some transitioning and research, but I feel great and am as fit as I've ever been. I eat high carb and low fat - lots of fruit, some cooked carbs like rice, peas, potatoes, yams, and I'm trying to eat more greens (can be a struggle to get good quality sometimes). I strive to eat at least 3,000 calories a day.

Watch durianrider on YouTube if you want the real deal on health, fitness, and nutrition.

Posture Guy
11-06-2011, 11:14 AM
I think different people have different metabolic types and can thrive on very different diets. I know people who do very well on your kind of diet. If I ate that way I would feel horrible. I know, I did it for an extended period of time.

beernutz
11-06-2011, 03:32 PM
I went vegan immediately after reading the China Study and haven't looked back. It took some transitioning and research, but I feel great and am as fit as I've ever been. I eat high carb and low fat - lots of fruit, some cooked carbs like rice, peas, potatoes, yams, and I'm trying to eat more greens (can be a struggle to get good quality sometimes). I strive to eat at least 3,000 calories a day.

Watch durianrider on YouTube if you want the real deal on health, fitness, and nutrition.
LOLOLOL. Yeah Durianrider is an excellent source for unbiased nutritional information. </major sarcasm>

Alejandro Lanza
11-08-2011, 10:56 AM
ah, the blogosphere. There are some absolute gems there, and then a lot of pure drivel. Her stuff is pretty good, I think.

I still don't see anything that would make me deviate from my original assessment of this source.
Nowadays there are enough real scientific studies that contradict each other, so it's easy to pick the ones that suit what you like your lifestyle to be like. If on top of that you include any blogger out there, then the sky's the limit right?
I'm not saying i agree or not with her as i haven't read what she wrote, but then again you can't really just go out there and read everything everyone wrote. But it did make me smile when she said that she 'read 7 hours a day about nutrition'. That's some credentials right there, makes Campbell's PHD, etc. pale in comparison ;)

Posture Guy
11-08-2011, 11:01 AM
So you're saying you haven't seen anything that would lead you to deviate from your original assessment of her information, then you say you haven't read her information.

um, ok.

re credentials, I don't care what someone's credentials are. Give me the data and tell me how they're interpreting it and what conclusions they are drawing from it. Campbell is drawing very dubious conclusions from observational data.

beernutz
11-08-2011, 02:22 PM
I still don't see anything that would make me deviate from my original assessment of this source.
Nowadays there are enough real scientific studies that contradict each other, so it's easy to pick the ones that suit what you like your lifestyle to be like. If on top of that you include any blogger out there, then the sky's the limit right?
I'm not saying i agree or not with her as i haven't read what she wrote, but then again you can't really just go out there and read everything everyone wrote. But it did make me smile when she said that she 'read 7 hours a day about nutrition'. That's some credentials right there, makes Campbell's PHD, etc. pale in comparison ;)
Campbell's research findings included in the The China Study were not peer-reviewed. He relied only on his credentials and apparently hoped no one would look any deeper into the data he used to reach his conclusions. Unfortunately for him, a lot of people generously took the time to do just that, not just Denise Minger. You don't have to have a Ph.D. to understand statistics or how the scientific process is supposed to work and just because you do have one doesn't guarantee you do know these things or follow them. There are some pretty egregious examples of how far certain people will go to push their agendas.

For example read this article on meat eater's being more selfish published based on studies done by social scientists in Holland: http://www.dutchdailynews.com/meat-eaters-selfish-less-social/
Pretty damning, huh? Except, now go read this article on one of those researchers who just happens to be a vegetarian advocate: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/05/science/la-sci-science-fraud-20111106
Oops! He made it all up! And not just that one study, he made up lots of data for many different studies to support his vegetarian agenda.

Campbell came to his bogus conclusions through bad assumptions about causation and by ignoring results which were counter to his preconceived agenda. Minger is just pointing out, like many other Campbell critics, that the conclusions included in the China Study weren't based on science but were primarily just one plant-based food advocate's opinion.