PDA

View Full Version : Are there advantages to firm wrist on the forehand?


TennisKid1
12-18-2009, 01:01 PM
Ok so i watched this video of Andre Agassi hitting and he keeps his wrist firm throughout his forehand stroke. Then I saw a video of federer hitting forehands and his wrist was fairly loose. Does a firm wrist have more control than a loose wrist which generates more power?

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 01:12 PM
Ok so i watched this video of Andre Agassi hitting and he keeps his wrist firm throughout his forehand stroke. Then I saw a video of federer hitting forehands and his wrist was fairly loose. Does a firm wrist have more control than a loose wrist which generates more power?

Agassi does not keep his wrist firm in the stroke. When he came on the scene, he was the one that helped popularize what is known as the "wrist release". Which was later coined (though unpopular) the "educated wrist".

Agassi did not stiffen his wrist release. When he swung, his hand went back on the forward swing and then propelled forward as it approached contact and into the followthrough. The movement his hand makes forward is very slight and happens just before impact making it very difficult to see on film at full speed.

At Braden's Tennis College, we had to study Agassi's forehand a lot and we were able to reduce it to Stick Figure form for further study.

Agassi left the game best known for his relentless attack on his opponent's conditioning, the simplicity in his strokes, and his emphasis on conditioning (which IMO is a good recipe for success for any tennis player).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ&feature=channel

TennisKid1
12-18-2009, 01:19 PM
Oh i think i understand then. But do you think that a firm wrist would help more on service returns?

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Oh i think i understand then. But do you think that a firm wrist would help more on service returns?

That is a preference area. Some players choke up on the racquet handle to firm up their swing for the return. If you feel that you need to firm up your grip, that is something you have to decide.

Some of the ways to tell that your grip is too loose is if you spray the ball a lot, mishit, frame balls, or just sort of slap the ball, your racquet twists too much, or has a sloppy feel to it when you hit the ball.

Technically, a decent grip is to hold the handle like you would hold a bird in your hand. Not too tight to kill it, and not too loose so that it flies away. I should be able to tug on your racquet and pull your racquet out of your hand after a couple of tries. Go from there as your guide.

sir_shanks_alot
12-18-2009, 01:35 PM
I think a firm wrist is a good idea on the return, unless you plan to generate pace. The racquet works more like a backboard.

You might try a tighter on the first serve and looser grip on a second; blocking vs swinging.

5263
12-18-2009, 03:39 PM
Ok so i watched this video of Andre Agassi hitting and he keeps his wrist firm throughout his forehand stroke. Then I saw a video of federer hitting forehands and his wrist was fairly loose. Does a firm wrist have more control than a loose wrist which generates more power?

Firm is an excellent word in this case, as some of the definitions for FIRM fit better than others, but it may be the best English word to define the wrist in tennis strokes, as in firm grip or firm mattress. In these cases it clearly does not mean rigid or immovable. Agassi had a nice Firm wrist thru parts of the stroke where that is best, with with some give at a certain point in the stroke, much like a firm mattress will not be like concrete, but have some give at a given stress or pressure.

This firmness also lends itself to storing energy of the stroke with the ability to return that energy at a point in the swing, as a firm fishing rod would when casting. It should not be confused with a firm grip, as these are 2 dif issues. The narrow view of the word firm has led to quite a bit of misunderstanding on the contribution of the wrists in tennis strokes which you can see in some of the above posts.

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Firm is an excellent word in this case, as some of the definitions for FIRM fit better than others, but it may be the best English word to define the wrist in tennis strokes, as in firm grip or firm mattress.

:mrgreen:Wow, this is really wrong. A firm wrist is not the best way to describe the function of the wrist in tennis because it implies a person applying stronger pressure on the handle to reduce the elasticity in the wrist area for it to function properly.

There have been numerous presentations in this area and the best way to describe it is through the term "Educated Wrist" which is commonly accepted by many people that actually reviewed and studied Agassi's forehand. Obviously, you weren't there nor have you studied Agassi's forehand!!!

Elasticity in the wrist is also an excellent term to use because it describes how the hand is to function in the forward swing, through contact and into followthrough.

In these cases it clearly does not mean rigid or immovable. Agassi had a nice Firm wrist thru parts of the stroke where that is best, with with some give at a certain point in the stroke, much like a firm mattress will not be like concrete, but have some give at a given stress or pressure.

Actually, Agassi didn't have a firm wrist when you study film. A firm wrist implies that the hand can't move forward and it does not automatically imply rigidness.

This firmness also lends itself to storing energy of the stroke with the ability to return that energy at a point in the swing, as a firm fishing rod would when casting. It should not be confused with a firm grip, as these are 2 dif issues. The narrow view of the word firm has led to quite a bit of misunderstanding on the contribution of the wrists in tennis strokes which you can see in some of the above posts.

What? Do you even know what the anatomy of the wrist is? It is just a bunch of tendons. These tendons are controlled by the hand and in order to create a "firm wrist" you have to have a firm grip!!!! LOL!!!

When a player moves his racquet back through the backswing and into the downswing, elasticity is what the player wants to maintain in the wrist area and have it function like a hinge. You do not want the wrist firm otherwise you lose the elasticity in this area. You want to grip the handle just enough to maintain control of the racquet head but also keep the elasticity in the wrist.

What people want in their wrist is elasticity. When a wrist is firm it means it doesn't allow the hand to move.

Players do not want that. Although A player can hit a tennis ball with a firm wrist and a wrist that is l.aid back, maintaining firmness is a result on how hard one squeezes the handel

:cry:Wow, this is probably the most off advice I have read on these boards. First off, the wrist doesn't lay back, the hand does. Second, having a narrow view of what a firm wrist is has not lead to misunderstanding. That is completely false. Explainations such as yours has led to misunderstandings.

In case you haven't seen what takes place in the "modern" stroke, the hand remains relaxed through much of racquet prep, the backswing and the down swing. Light pressure on the handle is applied simply to not allow the racquet to wobble around through the forward swing. Slightly more pressure is applied automatically at impact to brace the collision.

During this whole time, the hand does not grip the handle firmly to cause the wrists tendons to tighten up. They allow the wrist to remain elastic so that during the forward swing, the sudden change in direction forces the hand back as the arm is thrusted forward. The stored energy is created only at the time of the sudden change in direction and is RELEASED as the arm and rotation begin to slow down.

HENCE WHAT IS KNOWN AS THE WRIST RELEASE AND LATER, THE EDUCATED WRIST. ;)

LeeD
12-18-2009, 04:30 PM
I got the worst forehand in the world, and I hold a loose, almost limp wrist.
My volleys are pretty good, and I really tighten up for higher putaway volleys, and loosen up but stroke thru for low volleys.
Maybe I need to tighten up on the SW forehand, but the loose wrist sometimes works good.

user92626
12-18-2009, 04:34 PM
BB wrote:

When a player moves his racquet back through the backswing and into the downswing, elasticity is what the player wants to maintain in the wrist area and have it function like a hinge. You do not want the wrist firm otherwise you lose the elasticity in this area. You want to grip the handle just enough to maintain control of the racquet head but also keep the elasticity in the wrist.

What people want in their wrist is elasticity. When a wrist is firm it means it doesn't allow the hand to move.

-------
The description and the word elasticity by BB is all good stuffs. I would say try to create as much elasticity as possible to promote whippiness. However, anytime you detect a slight pressure at the wrist, you're going too far and you will end up with a wrist pain if you keep it up.

Bungalo Bill
12-18-2009, 04:42 PM
BB wrote:

When a player moves his racquet back through the backswing and into the downswing, elasticity is what the player wants to maintain in the wrist area and have it function like a hinge. You do not want the wrist firm otherwise you lose the elasticity in this area. You want to grip the handle just enough to maintain control of the racquet head but also keep the elasticity in the wrist.

What people want in their wrist is elasticity. When a wrist is firm it means it doesn't allow the hand to move.

-------
The description and the word elasticity by BB is all good stuffs. I would say try to create as much elasticity as possible to promote whippiness. However, anytime you detect a slight pressure at the wrist, you're going too far and you will end up with a wrist pain if you keep it up.

You got it! That is what players want to do. And players will be different here.

You want to create as much elasticity in the grip to allow the hand to move freely. Some players like that whippy feel. I never have. However, there is a balance, we also don't want the handle/racquet wobbling in our hands either which causes the racquet head to move around improperly as well.

Also, another thing a player can do is move the heel of their palm against the butt of the handle (for what it was designed for). This allows a player to maintain a similar grip but it steadies the racquet in the hand more. This coincides with "choking" up on the handle. The heel acts as a brace.

35ft6
12-18-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm having a problem right now on my forehand and it's steadily getting better by me keeping my wrist firm throughout the stroke.

user92626
12-18-2009, 05:20 PM
BB,

I like the whippy feel. Sometimes the racket head lags behind so much that I am even amazed at how it could catch up to the contact point on time at all. Yeah, I learned the hard way that there's a balance to how much you can push the range of elasicity of the wrist. :)

"Also, another thing a player can do is move the heel of their palm against the butt of the handle"

For that I bulged up the butt with extra electrical tape underneath the overgrip. hehe. I also like to feel the flatness of the sw bevel fully lining up inside my palm. That way my palm drives the racket with the strongest part.

Blake0
12-18-2009, 07:37 PM
Ok so i watched this video of Andre Agassi hitting and he keeps his wrist firm throughout his forehand stroke. Then I saw a video of federer hitting forehands and his wrist was fairly loose. Does a firm wrist have more control than a loose wrist which generates more power?

Agassi has a fairly loose wrist. Federer has a very loose wrist. Only time you need a firm wrist is in returns, volleys, or some special occasions, which you don't need to worry about.

5263
12-18-2009, 09:18 PM
What? Do you even know what the anatomy of the wrist is? It is just a bunch of tendons. These tendons are controlled by the hand

have it function like a hinge.

What people want in their wrist is elasticity. When a wrist is firm it means it doesn't allow the hand to move.


Really?? A bunch of tendons? :shock:
Wow, you need to give a call to one of you buddies like Brian Gordan and let him 1st explain to you that the Wrist is JOINT area
(Anatomy-The wrist is a more complicated joint, which uses ligaments to stabilize the joint)

2ond ask him about the muscles that control the wrist, which are in the FOREARM and primarily attach to the hand via tendons.
(Movements and muscles-The extrinsic hand muscles are located in the forearm where their bellies form the proximal fleshy roundness)

Maybe hearing it from a Phd will help.

I won't even bother with how bad hinge is to describe the good wrist action, as a hinge flops freely with NO elasticity from the supporting structure, unless of course you add a spring or cylinder, which would then FIRM up it's action, just as the tendons do from the muscles in the forearm which attach to the hand. The muscles in the hand operate the hand and fingers, not the wrist. lol.

Elasticity?? you want to stretch the wrist and make it longer? How do you elongate a joint? Dislocate it? lol

Educated wrist? I guess I don't mind this personally, but since so many have problems with the term muscle memory, thinking that muscles don't remember, I would think they would have a cow over this idea of a wrist getting an education and retaining it; so I would avoid this term.

Firm is clearly one of the better terms given several definitions in normal use for the word like the examples I've already cited, which show the ability to allow a controlled flex or movement, without giving the unrestrained flop of a hinge which would also denote movement in only one plane, which is far different than a wrists varied planes of rotation.

Will be fun to watch you try to BS thru these gaffes. While we often disagree about modern tennis, I really thought you understood the body better than this.

Maverick16
12-19-2009, 12:01 AM
Personally, I feel that the more wrist you can incorporate into the stroke the more racquet head speed and thus a more powerful shot.
I used to hit my double backhand by taking the racquet back and just using one constant motion and swing through the ball using little wrist and my shot was very weak.
I now take the racquet back in a high arc then let the racquet drop and then use my wrists to whip the racquet through the ball, and now I am generating much more power.
Just remember the more wrist action=more whipping action and much more power. Think racquet head speed.
Look at how much wrist action these 2 gents use.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=FYB2007#p/u/134/-Rl0fwXTrr8
Major whipping action.

Compare this to John McEnroe's almost wristless forehand, and thus powerless forehand. He almost looks like he is pushing the ball back.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=FYB2007#p/u/16/19gmJilFKlI
wrist action=power

Bungalo Bill
12-19-2009, 02:13 PM
BB,

I like the whippy feel. Sometimes the racket head lags behind so much that I am even amazed at how it could catch up to the contact point on time at all. Yeah, I learned the hard way that there's a balance to how much you can push the range of elasicity of the wrist. :)

Some people like that feel. When the racquet lags back like that it is like pulling back farther on a sling shot. Eventually, when your elbow moves in front of the body plane and your arm slows down it will cause the hand to move forward real fast. And it doesn't take much at all to transfer good energy into the ball from such a little motion.

Yes, I learned too. I actually am going a bit the other way. Instead of firming up the hand, I now place the butt of the handl against my heel for leverage.

So far I like it because it tapers my power and helps my improve ball control.

"Also, another thing a player can do is move the heel of their palm against the butt of the handle"

For that I bulged up the butt with extra electrical tape underneath the overgrip. hehe. I also like to feel the flatness of the sw bevel fully lining up inside my palm. That way my palm drives the racket with the strongest part.

Not a bad idea.

5263
12-20-2009, 09:03 AM
I'm having a problem right now on my forehand and it's steadily getting better by me keeping my wrist firm throughout the stroke.

Yes, I like the term Firm as well. I can see why some don't like it though, as they take that to mean more rigid or stiff, but seeing firm in some of its other more supple definitions; it fits better than most words I've seen. Wrist is a very complex joint, so no surprise that finding a single word to describe it is a challenge.

Bungalo Bill
12-20-2009, 09:08 AM
Yes, I like the term Firm as well. I can see why some don't like it though, as they take that to mean more rigid or stiff, but seeing firm in some of its other more supple definitions; it fits better than most words I've seen. Wrist is a very complex joint, so no surprise that finding a single word to describe it is a challenge.

:) The wrist is a VERY COMPLEX joint? Haven't you clamoured about keeping things simple?

What is complex? The wrist is bones and tendons. What is complex about that? Your grip pressure a player has on the handle stiffens the wrist. What is complex about that?

The bottom-line is using the word FIRM comes from the 1970's and it goes against everything you have promoted concerning the MODERN FOREHAND.

There is no complexity here. The wrist needs to remain elastic. A player needs to find the balance they need to maintain control of the racquet head and allow the hand to still move. This is very easy to find out and takes at most several feeds for the player to decide. All a player needs to know is the pros and cons about various grip pressures.

There is nothing else to know except for a player to figure out how much pressure they want to place on the handle of the racquet.

Bottom-line is your above post is nowhere near what a modern forehand is about.

5263
12-20-2009, 09:16 AM
:) The wrist is a VERY COMPLEX joint? Haven't you clamoured about keeping things simple?

What is complex? The wrist is bones and tendons. What is complex about that? Your grip pressure a player has on the handle stiffens the wrist. What is complex about that?

The bottom-line is using the word FIRM comes from the 1970's and it goes against everything you have promoted concerning the MODERN FOREHAND.

There is no complexity here.

Not complex, LOL.

Quote below-

http://www.eorthopod.com/public/patient_education/6607/wrist_anatomy.html

Introduction
The anatomy of the wrist joint is extremely complex, probably the most complex of all the joints in the body.

Nice try though, lol.
Like you said, you will just say anything to try and make your points, regardless of how untruthful!

5263
12-20-2009, 09:19 AM
It's the strokes that can made simple, but the body is a very complex thing.
Can you see the dif?

your quote-
"The bottom-line is using the word FIRM comes from the 1970's and it goes against everything you have promoted concerning the MODERN FOREHAND."

Unlike you, I don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water. I can keep what works for me if it is not false data.

Mahboob Khan
12-20-2009, 09:41 AM
Oh i think i understand then. But do you think that a firm wrist would help more on service returns?

On a return of serve a bit firmer wrist will help because at times you will be forced to make a minimal back swing with firm contact and follow through.

However, on the forehand ground stroke, the wrist should be relax so that it is laid back prior to contact so that "educated" release of the wrist occurs.

5263
12-20-2009, 12:09 PM
:mrgreen:Wow, this is really wrong. A firm wrist is not the best way to describe the function of the wrist in tennis ;)

So this is an area where you have departed from your main Mentor, Vic Braden, who speaks often is his book about how the wrist stay fixed thru contact in his high speed video and uses the term "firm"?
Didn't you believe his high speed footage?

J011yroger
12-20-2009, 12:18 PM
Main Entry: 1elas·tic
Pronunciation: \i-ˈlas-tik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin elasticus, from Late Greek elastos ductile, beaten, from Greek elaunein to drive, beat out; probably akin to Greek ēlythe he went, Old Irish luid
Date: 1674
1 a of a solid : capable of recovering size and shape after deformation b : relating to or being a collision between particles in which the total kinetic energy of the particles remains unchanged
2 : capable of recovering quickly especially from depression or disappointment <my elastic spirits revived — Wilkie Collins>
3 : capable of being easily stretched or expanded and resuming former shape : flexible <an elastic bandage>
4 a : capable of ready change or easy expansion or contraction : not rigid or constricted <an elastic concept> b : receptive to new ideas : adaptable <an elastic mind>

J

J011yroger
12-20-2009, 12:18 PM
My wrist isn't any of that stuff...

J

5263
12-20-2009, 12:21 PM
My wrist isn't any of that stuff...

J

Maybe that guy on the fantastic four? eh

J011yroger
12-20-2009, 12:25 PM
Maybe that guy on the fantastic four? eh

Dunno about a forehand, but he could probably cover the net real well.

J

5263
12-20-2009, 04:53 PM
Dunno about a forehand, but he could probably cover the net real well.

J

should be good at overheads, lol.

J011yroger
12-20-2009, 05:57 PM
should be good at overheads, lol.

He could play mixed with the invisible woman, you would never know when she was poaching.

J

Mahboob Khan
12-20-2009, 06:37 PM
So this is an area where you have departed from your main Mentor, Vic Braden, who speaks often is his book about how the wrist stay fixed thru contact in his high speed video and uses the term "firm"?
Didn't you believe his high speed footage?

If I see my student is swinging from his wrist (his wrist is like jelly fish), I tell him/her to keep his/her wrist fixed or locked. I often have him/her choke up on her handle so that wrist is trained. From one extreme to the other and the problem is solved. As the loose wrist problem is solved, a proper laid back wrist is then developed. It all depends in which context the coach is speaking.

5263
12-20-2009, 07:20 PM
If I see my student is swinging from his wrist (his wrist is like jelly fish), I tell him/her to keep his/her wrist fixed or locked. I often have him/her choke up on her handle so that wrist is trained. From one extreme to the other and the problem is solved. As the loose wrist problem is solved, a proper laid back wrist is then developed. It all depends in which context the coach is speaking.

sounds reasonable.

travlerajm
12-20-2009, 10:28 PM
I used to think keeping the wrist firm was the way to hit a forehand. And my forehand never got very good.

More recently, I've discovered that it's better to let the wrist joint bend freely, and let the racquet carry the hand with it. If the racquet can't keep up and get around quickly enough to maintain a a near-constant plane angle through the contact point, it means my racquet is not balanced properly. This can be easily fixed with a little lead tape on the handle. Adding lead tape is much easier than retraining my biomechanics.

My forehand is pretty good now.

mucat
12-20-2009, 10:49 PM
I think a lot of the time different terminology can help different player. Everyone think differently and everyone visualize differently. Personally, I think of my FH wrist as firm but not tight, My wrist need to at least firm enough I don't get knock around. And I don't think I need to consciously think about it. When I get a soft sitter, my wrist can and will loose a little bit. When I get something heavy coming my way, I have to hold it firmer.

I think there are some super slow motion videos on youtube.

KenC
12-21-2009, 06:36 AM
Note that even though Federer has a relaxed wrist at the beginning of his swing, at the moment of contact the wrist is straight and firm.

Mahboob Khan
12-21-2009, 06:45 AM
Note that even though Federer has a relaxed wrist at the beginning of his swing, at the moment of contact the wrist is straight and firm.

The shock/force/anvil of the hit makes the wrist firm at contact.

drakulie
12-21-2009, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by OrangeOne

NB. I know nothing about the author, Bill Mountford, but he is doing the Q&A role for USTA.com.

http://www.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=377488

Q. In regards to the question about PTR or USPTA instructors not teaching the "modern way" (10/25), it raised a question. Does the "modern way" require a higher level of skill in order for it to be performed properly? I remember a study done by Vic Braden on Agassi's forehand. Andre swore he used his wrist, but the study showed in fact he did not. It seems to me that the techniques required in the modern way could be easily misunderstood or applied resulting in poor execution, even with an instructor’s help (i.e., watching a player like Agassi and seeing him use his "wrist"). ......
...Many players associate a “firm wrist” with squeezing the racquet handle too firmly, and this is not ideal, so I am careful about ever offering that suggestion. The study of Andre Agassi’s own perception of his forehand is interesting. He certainly cocks his wrist back before contact (putting his forearm muscles “on stretch”). After he finishes the follow-through, Agassi’s wrist is inarguably in a different position. His logic is easy to follow: that the wrist “snaps” through the hitting zone. Vic Braden was able to break down that Agassi’s wrist was, in fact, still (if not locked) throughout the milliseconds of contact during the forehand. However, if you were trying to teach/coach the Agassi forehand and were to insist that a student keep his wrist firm throughout the swing, then it would not likely look at all like… the Agassi forehand.


– Bill

KenC
12-21-2009, 08:03 AM
The shock/force/anvil of the hit makes the wrist firm at contact.

I used to hit the forehand the old fashioned way with a firm wrist but started doing it the way of Fed lately. The beauty of using the wrist is that while the arm is accelerating the wrist is accelerating as well adding to increased racquet speed at impact. The way I hit is to make impact at the same point when the wrist is straight. Whether my wrist is firm because of the impact or because I lock it, I am not sure. But, I do know for sure that my wrist is fixed at impact and remains fixed as my forearm pronates through the WW motion.

The whole idea here is sort of like a kinetic chain. The arm and wrist accelerating combined with a forearm that is starting to pronate puts a lot of energy into impact and results in a ball with a lot of pace and topspin, and all this is made with relatively little effort.

drakulie
12-21-2009, 08:17 AM
The way I hit is to make impact at the same point when the wrist is straight.

If your wrist is straight at impact, how do you hit the ball forward? If you are hitting with a straight arm (ala fed), and your wrist is straight, this would mean for your to hit the ball directly forward, your contat point will be nearly behind your torso.

If your contact point is in front (as it should be), then your wrist would have to be laid back (not straight) at contact.

sir_shanks_alot
12-21-2009, 08:41 AM
On a return of serve a bit firmer wrist will help because at times you will be forced to make a minimal back swing with firm contact and follow through.

However, on the forehand ground stroke, the wrist should be relax so that it is laid back prior to contact so that "educated" release of the wrist occurs.

Agree. See post 5.

The shock/force/anvil of the hit makes the wrist firm at contact.

This is like the chicken or egg debate. I don't think the hit makes the wrist firm. I believe its learned/taught. I used to have a very whippy FH. It still is from time to time.

What causes me to "firm up" near and through the hit is observation of the results. Too loose causes a greater mishit and loss of power. Firmer provides more control and cleaner contact. At least it it appears this way.

The only negative I see with a firm wrist is loss of power/racquet speed. That's an essential part of my stroke because I prefer lots of spin. There is a lot of lifting for me, not much face manipulation unless I'm taking the ball early.

In general, I would say too loose causes timing issues and loss of control. You will feel it too because the racquet will want to move in your hand.

Imagine volleying with a limp wrist. Unless the ball lands perfectly on the racquet, it lands short and twists the frame.

LeeD
12-21-2009, 09:37 AM
Wrists should be laid back somewhat during contact.
EFH users sometimes firm up the wrists for more consistent, but softer blocking effect on the ball.
SW and W users need to whip the rackethead, so looser wrists can gain rackethead speed.
Surprisingly, conti topspinners use a loose wrist to allow the racketface to close during the forehand swing, or rather, it's true service pronation.. :shock:

Bungalo Bill
12-21-2009, 09:42 AM
LeeD you are right. The hand (not the wrist) will be laid back somewhat at contact (do to the sudden thrust of the forward swing) because the arm hasn't slowed down too much to allow the hand to come forward too much yet. However, in the followthrough the hand folds over.

KenC
12-21-2009, 11:31 AM
If your wrist is straight at impact, how do you hit the ball forward? If you are hitting with a straight arm (ala fed), and your wrist is straight, this would mean for your to hit the ball directly forward, your contat point will be nearly behind your torso.

If your contact point is in front (as it should be), then your wrist would have to be laid back (not straight) at contact.

I don't think my arm is straight, as in locked at the elbow. I would say the elbow is bent at about a 45 degree angle. I also us an extreme eastern grip and make contact with the ball about a foot in front of my front foot.

What I wanted to say is that whether I use a firm wrist or a wrist that starts back and then accelerates to straight, I always hit the ball always at the same point in front of me. The only difference is that the wrist started laid back and then quickly returned to the same point to where I would be if I kept a firm wrist.

5263
12-21-2009, 06:10 PM
Points to note.

A laid back wrist can be back and still be firm there.
Also with SW or western grips, the grip can be firm, and the racket face lag, without laying back the wrist.

sir_shanks_alot
12-21-2009, 06:32 PM
A thread like this makes a good Christmas present. Lots of good posts.

Bungalo Bill
12-22-2009, 08:02 AM
A thread like this makes a good Christmas present. Lots of good posts.

Man, I love your nickname. It just cracks me up whenever I see it. Classic.

sir_shanks_alot
12-22-2009, 10:09 PM
Thanks. I'd like to give credit to Federer, but it occured to me after a windy practice while watching Monty Python.

King Arthur: [after Arthur's cut off both of the Black Knight's arms] Look, you stupid ______. You've got no arms left.
Black Knight: Yes I have.
King Arthur: *Look*!
Black Knight: It's just a flesh wound.

aimr75
12-23-2009, 12:57 AM
For the longest time ive always had a pretty firm wrist on my forehand, not by choice, i just tended to tighten up whenever id get on the court, but have been working on this aspect lately.. here are a couple stills of me initiating the forward swing to the ball

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1293/forehand.jpg

the funny thing is that i wasnt really aware of it until i saw it.. i have a bit of a feeling the racquet whips more, but its not an overwhelming sensation

CHOcobo
12-23-2009, 01:14 AM
deleted post

J011yroger
12-23-2009, 02:42 PM
For the longest time ive always had a pretty firm wrist on my forehand, not by choice, i just tended to tighten up whenever id get on the court, but have been working on this aspect lately.. here are a couple stills of me initiating the forward swing to the ball

the funny thing is that i wasnt really aware of it until i saw it.. i have a bit of a feeling the racquet whips more, but its not an overwhelming sensation

Looks pretty nice. Love the straight arm FH.

J

LeeD
12-23-2009, 04:27 PM
Not that I have a forehand...
Man, that's one wrist whippy stroke with stature of liberty stiff legs.

J011yroger
12-23-2009, 05:31 PM
Not that I have a forehand...
Man, that's one wrist whippy stroke with stature of liberty stiff legs.

Really? Looks pretty clear to me that he is transferring his weight from right foot to left, and lifting into the ball.

Maybe you are looking at a different picture.

J

J011yroger
12-23-2009, 05:34 PM
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Championships+Wimbledon+2008+11P13P1E9Bbl.jpg

Bend those knees Rog!

J

LeeD
12-23-2009, 05:36 PM
Post #46 seems to show whippy wrists and very upright little bent legs, feet very close together.
My forehand is terrible, but I have a wide feet stance (maybe 25"), and mucho bent knees compared to that photo. And very little wrist layback since my left wrist doesn't lay back.

J011yroger
12-23-2009, 05:41 PM
^^^ His feet are much further apart than it looks in the still. It is an optical illusion.

If you start a shot with your knees bent, and hit the ball with your knees bent, you didn't accomplish anything by bending your knees except getting lower.

J

LeeD
12-23-2009, 05:45 PM
The two pics on post #46 are not of the same shot. Both forehands, yes.
Both pics, seems knees are very straight and feet close together.
The pic of Fed, and we don't need to help Fed with his forehands, shows a much wider base of the feet.

LeeD
12-23-2009, 05:48 PM
Oh, golf....
You start your backswing with the legs barely bent.
You finish your stroke with the legs barely bent.
In between, you drive your hips forward with the legs, with a twisting motion, and hit the ball using the kinetic chain WITHOUT lift at all.
I see plenty of modern players lift as they hit the ball. Not for me, I'm 60 with beat up legs, ankles, and feet. Maybe, hence the poor forehand.
Do you need LIFT with your knees for a forehand, or is DRIVE more important?

aimr75
12-23-2009, 06:14 PM
Jolly, thanks for the comments

LeeD, i was simply illustrating one aspect ive been working on which is to try keep my wrist from being rigid, but i know i have many things to work on with my swing, as do most of us.. I dont think ive ever stated my strokes are where they should be, i have many things to work on :)

LeeD
12-23-2009, 06:37 PM
I'm not criticising your laid back wrists. I WISH I could to that. I'm not really criticising your upright stance and narrow feet, just an observation and something I can do also.
It's possible to have a laid back wrist before striking the ball, then a firm wrist at impact. You only tighten your grip at impact.
Remember, I keep saying my forehand sucks, which it does.

aimr75
12-23-2009, 06:53 PM
I'm not criticising your laid back wrists. I WISH I could to that. I'm not really criticising your upright stance and narrow feet, just an observation and something I can do also.
It's possible to have a laid back wrist before striking the ball, then a firm wrist at impact. You only tighten your grip at impact.
Remember, I keep saying my forehand sucks, which it does.

yeah, my goal is to try and be relaxed while hitting, which includes my wrist.. its something i didnt do before, but at the very least my wrist isnt so rigid as it used to be

Here is a shot sequence from behind..

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/738/swingv.jpg

LeeD
12-23-2009, 06:58 PM
Yea you look relaxed and balanced.
I can't get balanced without a wide spread apart feet stance, as 5'11" and 150lbs. is pretty easy to topple over.

Ripper014
12-23-2009, 07:03 PM
^^^ His feet are much further apart than it looks in the still. It is an optical illusion.

If you start a shot with your knees bent, and hit the ball with your knees bent, you didn't accomplish anything by bending your knees except getting lower.

J

I agree... the stroke is ok... the weight transfer is obvious in both pictures... and being that the ball is as high as it is... his stance is a comfortable one for him... no real need for the deep knee bend. Not how I hit the ball... but it seems like it is an efficient way for him to hit the ball.

mikeler
12-23-2009, 07:24 PM
I think my Golfers Elbow (GE) is because I'm trying to turn my wrist too far back to get extra topspin on my forehand backswing. I'm thinking of locking my wrist on future forehands. Maybe that will help with the pain.

KenC
12-24-2009, 12:52 AM
I'm looking at those pictured shots where both Fed and the TT poster have their arm completely straight, as in a 180 degree angle at the elbow. If that doesn't lead to TE I would be really surprised.

chico9166
12-24-2009, 02:42 AM
yeah, my goal is to try and be relaxed while hitting, which includes my wrist.. its something i didnt do before, but at the very least my wrist isnt so rigid as it used to be

Here is a shot sequence from behind..

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/738/swingv.jpg

I actually really like the looks of this forehand.

aimr75
12-24-2009, 03:21 AM
I'm looking at those pictured shots where both Fed and the TT poster have their arm completely straight, as in a 180 degree angle at the elbow. If that doesn't lead to TE I would be really surprised.

Ive never gotten TE.. dont think a straight arm technique causes it.. It would be a good bet Federer hasnt gotten TE using a straight arm :)

drakulie
12-24-2009, 07:00 AM
aim, thanks for sharing the pics. Love the extension you get on your FH.

Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.

chico9166
12-24-2009, 07:21 AM
aim, thanks for sharing the pics. Love the extension you get on your FH.
Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.

Yup, one of the advantages of a straight arm, is that the ideal contact point, IS (MORE OR LESS) at the point of maximum extension. So if you can meet your contact point requirement, you get a real long line of acceleration and real "plow through ability."

Bungalo Bill
12-24-2009, 08:05 AM
Ive never gotten TE.. dont think a straight arm technique causes it.. It would be a good bet Federer hasnt gotten TE using a straight arm :)

The straight arm technique does increase a players risk to get tennis elbow.

In order to reduce this risk, a player needs to understand what needs to be done.

The main keys to hitting like Federer are:

1. You must maintain an elastic wrist area. The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball. This release helps reduce shock that could be sent to the elbow if you maintained a firm wrist and arm.

2. The arm needs to be relaxed through the entire motion and even as the arm extends in the forward portion of the swing.

3. A player needs to make contact with his elbow in front of the body plane. This is usually something that doesn't need to be taught as players will do this if they are doing the steps before reasonably correct. However, this is a check point that a coach needs to watch and make sure the player is doing.

If a player performs these main areas, the straight-arm is fine provided other things check out that support it.

aimr75
12-24-2009, 03:06 PM
aim, thanks for sharing the pics. Love the extension you get on your FH.

Would you say you have a lot of spin on your FH?? I ask because your racquet face never faces the ground before impact. Not that one has to do this to impact spin, but was just curious.

Drak, i can generate a pretty good amount of spin, but with the way i hit its not hard to hit flat as well..

When you mention the racquet face not facing the ground, at what point of the swing are you referring to? in the fourth pic, the position is more or less in that 'pat the dog' position where the racquet is pointing to the ground

The straight arm technique does increase a players risk to get tennis elbow.

In order to reduce this risk, a player needs to understand what needs to be done.

The main keys to hitting like Federer are:

1. You must maintain an elastic wrist area. The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball. This release helps reduce shock that could be sent to the elbow if you maintained a firm wrist and arm.

2. The arm needs to be relaxed through the entire motion and even as the arm extends in the forward portion of the swing.

3. A player needs to make contact with his elbow in front of the body plane. This is usually something that doesn't need to be taught as players will do this if they are doing the steps before that reasonably correct. However, this is a check point that a coach needs to watch and make sure the player is doing.

If a player performs these main areas, the straight-arm is fine provided other things check out the support it.


Interesting, thanks BB, never really thought about it since ive never really felt any real TE issues.. in the still shots, would you say these checkpoints are met? or too hard to tell?

5263
12-24-2009, 03:32 PM
The reason for this is just before contact you want the elasticity in the wrist to allow the hand to accelerate forward for the impact with the ball.
Fed slo mo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk&feature=related

Looks more like a radial deviation in the wrist from the 4-7 sec frames than a flexion movement , flexion being what you would expect from the wrist "catching up" in an elastic response.

IMO, the flexion and extension movements in general need to be avoided in tennis strokes, while the radial deviation and Ulnar deviation can be useful to add acceleration and spin without pushing the ball out. Yes, given the ability of the wrist to move in a wide variety of paths, there will be overlap to some degree, so this is a general way of looking at it.

drakulie
12-24-2009, 07:24 PM
Drak, i can generate a pretty good amount of spin, but with the way i hit its not hard to hit flat as well..

When you mention the racquet face not facing the ground, at what point of the swing are you referring to? in the fourth pic, the position is more or less in that 'pat the dog' position where the racquet is pointing to the ground



aimr, thanks! Yeah, I saw that photo. I was referring more to the racquet face being closed as you approach the ball with your forward swing.

For instance, in my FH I have my racquet face closed longer than you do. Was just curious if you felt you get a lot of spin.

aimr75
12-25-2009, 01:47 AM
aimr, thanks! Yeah, I saw that photo. I was referring more to the racquet face being closed as you approach the ball with your forward swing.

For instance, in my FH I have my racquet face closed longer than you do. Was just curious if you felt you get a lot of spin.

ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1230/fedxd.jpg

J011yroger
12-25-2009, 04:51 AM
Bend Your Knees Roger!!!!

J

5263
12-25-2009, 07:12 AM
ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is



Probably not crazy spin on this one of Fed or the one of you due to not going much below the ball in the loop.

J011yroger
12-25-2009, 08:20 AM
^^^ Racquet is waist high at the drop, contact is shoulder high. I would think any lower would be superfluous.

J

5263
12-25-2009, 08:38 AM
^^^ Racquet is waist high at the drop, contact is shoulder high. I would think any lower would be superfluous.

J

Maybe,
but I think the camera angle is deceiving and the contact is well below the shoulder and the loop is slightly above the waist. In any respect, the swing path as it approaches the contact is clearly not steep by any standard IMO.

user92626
12-25-2009, 01:00 PM
ah right.. im not too sure how much it plays a part in spin, maybe somebody can chime in on that.. id be interested to know

here is a shot sequence of fed.. but please, dont take this in any way me comparing my swing to his since that would be ridiculous.. i just thought id show that federer seems to have the face opened for quite some time in the forward swing.. as we know, he can generate crazy spin.. so, im not sure what the answer is

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1230/fedxd.jpg


In my understanding Fed's FH involves an exceptional wrist strength and flexing which most of us would get hurt if we try. And he's a pro so he knows how to accelerate the racket head and keep at it. Again, we non-pro players have funny and variant speeds in our strokes.

J011yroger
12-25-2009, 01:26 PM
Maybe,
but I think the camera angle is deceiving and the contact is well below the shoulder and the loop is slightly above the waist. In any respect, the swing path as it approaches the contact is clearly not steep by any standard IMO.

Obviously just hitting around in practice, but perhaps there is something to be learned there?

You know that I am not at all a fan of steep swingpaths, so maybe I am biased.

Still kicking around ideas, I will write something up when I have decided what I think.

J

5263
12-25-2009, 01:43 PM
Obviously just hitting around in practice, but perhaps there is something to be learned there?

You know that I am not at all a fan of steep swingpaths, so maybe I am biased.

Still kicking around ideas, I will write something up when I have decided what I think.

J

Yes, we are not on the same side of the spectrum when it comes to preference of angle of swing path, haha.
I tend to like the options a hard dipping ball gives me and normally will only flatten out trajectory to the extent I can still generate some pretty good spin and to an opened court. Of course I play mostly dubs where the spin gives even better payoff IMO. Hard wide angles, making net players volley up, and well hidden TS lobs from out of nowhere when most of Fhs have steep paths, are things that win tons of easy points.

J011yroger
12-25-2009, 06:30 PM
Yes, we are not on the same side of the spectrum when it comes to preference of angle of swing path, haha.
I tend to like the options a hard dipping ball gives me and normally will only flatten out trajectory to the extent I can still generate some pretty good spin and to an opened court. Of course I play mostly dubs where the spin gives even better payoff IMO. Hard wide angles, making net players volley up, and well hidden TS lobs from out of nowhere when most of Fhs have steep paths, are things that win tons of easy points.

Amazing that two people on TW can have different views on something and talk about it without calling one and other an idiot, and proclaiming their way superior.

Now that I am transitioning into match play mode, I, for the past couple months have been using all of my various shots and mixing them together in point play, instead of just working on one thing per week.

As an added bonus as I am working on it and my wrist keeps getting stronger, my forehand is starting to vaguely resemble someone trying to hit a tennis ball.

Dunno if you saw my latest video, but it is a good illustration of how I mix topspin and flat in point play. (The point play starts about 1/2 way through when I start saying the score).

http://vimeo.com/8293490

You will see that even on my heaviest topspun shots with the biggest arc, my swingpath is not very steep. And as far as quality of ball regarding pace and spin I would stack mine up against most people who are not making money playing.

Of course, I am different from the others we are talking about as I have a much more extreme grip and very bent arm (Would like to transition to a straighter arm, working on it.)

I would assume that you also have a much milder grip than I.

Thoughts?

J

5263
12-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Amazing that two people on TW can have different views on something and talk about it without calling one and other an idiot, and proclaiming their way superior.

Thoughts?

J

Yes, pretty cool isn't it. It's one of the things I always liked about your posts. You are not shy about stating your opinions, but have room to listen the the ideas of others. Yes, my grip is milder for sure.

Just watched your vids and agree that you stay pretty flat with your trajectory and really drive thru most balls, while getting some solid TS. My honest opinion is that you will have a tough challenge to be consistent enough to beat really solid players with your current approach to strokes, but also from what you are saying, you seem to be moving in a better direction. I saw one I really liked about 7:41.

To me, 19 of 20 shots you hit look to be very hard with a flatter trajectory, as though you were attacking a high mid ct ball to the open court, but instead, you were mostly back at the BL where these odds are not so good. You are constantly hitting thru that small window just above the net that will allow the TS to save your shot from going long. Even Fed starts to get in trouble when he gets to going in this direction too far.

I expect this works pretty good on lower players that give you easy balls and are overwhelmed with the power like in the vid, but against 4.5 players who will redirect that power back at you from on the rise, that ball will be back on you so quick that you will still be in your follow thru! Your contact was late quite often even with the rtns this guy was giving you. I'm also thinking that low balls and higher balls will give your consistency problems too. Is this right?

IMO, to take the next step, you are going to have to hit more out front with a contact that is more up and across and balls that are 1-3 feet higher over the net on avg, with another 15% more spin and much more focus on timing. With your natural power, it would be like facing big, fast, kick serves- all over the court, that would be jumping about shoulder high. My son that plays D1 was working me over with this kind of attack all week. It was not fun to face.

Recon
12-25-2009, 11:05 PM
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

aimr75
12-26-2009, 01:00 AM
Of course, I am different from the others we are talking about as I have a much more extreme grip and very bent arm (Would like to transition to a straighter arm, working on it.)

i think i recall you saying you had a western grip, is that right? I would have thought it would be very difficult to straighten out the arm with that grip.. i pretty much use an eastern, but when ive dabbled with a SW, even that is erring on the side of uncomfortable with a straight arm

I know its doable though using a SW with straight arm (nadal)

ms87
12-26-2009, 02:13 AM
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

jwbarrientos
12-26-2009, 04:44 AM
I think my Golfers Elbow (GE) is because I'm trying to turn my wrist too far back to get extra topspin on my forehand backswing. I'm thinking of locking my wrist on future forehands. Maybe that will help with the pain.

I was told the same by a pro coach, he said more or less ...

"your wrist is your own wrist" :shock:
"do not try to do whoever you wanna be" 8)
"just try to find your own way and practice" :?

I also was offered those wrist-lock (?) devices ... but didn't work.

I assume uniqueness means that every single person looks for his/her own way to deal with wrist, even existing a proper technique.

J011yroger
12-26-2009, 04:56 AM
i think i recall you saying you had a western grip, is that right? I would have thought it would be very difficult to straighten out the arm with that grip.. i pretty much use an eastern, but when ive dabbled with a SW, even that is erring on the side of uncomfortable with a straight arm

I know its doable though using a SW with straight arm (nadal)

I hit the majority of my FHs with a grip right on the line between W and SW. I float between full western and extreme eastern depending on the shot.

Don't need to go fully straight arm, as it is a bit too taxing on my wrist right now, but I think I would like to end up with something in the Tsongaish neighborhood of arm bend.

J

J011yroger
12-26-2009, 05:10 AM
IMO, to take the next step, you are going to have to hit more out front with a contact that is more up and across and balls that are 1-3 feet higher over the net on avg, with another 15% more spin and much more focus on timing. With your natural power, it would be like facing big, fast, kick serves- all over the court, that would be jumping about shoulder high. My son that plays D1 was working me over with this kind of attack all week. It was not fun to face.

Agree, and working on it continually moving in that direction while still retaining the pace when I can use it. When I am in serious playing mode I HATE missing shots, so I constantly try to use what I can and still have a low UE count.

But also staying true to my personality, I understand that there is a time and place for everything, but if I can't serve and hit big, I wouldn't enjoy playing nearly as much. So I don't mind playing steady to win a match here and there, or practicing consistency drills for a few hours a week, but at the end of the day I still have to let it fly now and again.

J

J011yroger
12-26-2009, 05:20 AM
--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

I agree pretty much with what you said, and appreciate the input. The only 4.5s that can really stand up to me in a groundstroke game are the top singles/sandbagging (in the eye of the observer) players and up. Against the very best players that I play, I need my serve to carry me (I still lose of course, but it is the serve that lets me put up some games on the board) because their movement and shot anticipation is so much better, if not the quality of the ball, that in a rally off the ground every shot I lose a little bit of a step on them until they win the point. They also change direction on the ball better than I do.

Video really takes away from the pace/spin of the shots, but I currently hit a pretty mean ball, and have hit with probably over 40 boardmembers.

As far as taking the shots on the rise and returning them back. I have a buddy whom I would call the 5.0 equiv of Gilles Simon. Dude stands right in on the baseline and hits everything on the rise, and changes direction on the ball incredibly well. My serve is bigger, but we have the most fierce baseline points ever, with me basically throwing the kitchen sink at him, and him standing in and dishing it back out. Not uncommon for us to have several 30+ stroke points in baseline games to 21.

J

J011yroger
12-26-2009, 05:27 AM
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

Sorry, I don't recall ever seeing you post before, but you sound like you believe what you wrote. Would you be up for a small wager? Perhaps a $20 TW gift card? You can send them to someone's e-mail address.

Now that I am pretty healthy I am going to try to play a full schedule of tournaments in 2010. You can state what you think my level of play is, and if I exceed that in tournament play, you can send me the gift card, if I match your stated level, then you can pay me.

Fair?

J

KenC
12-26-2009, 06:01 AM
^^ I'd put €50 on J011y

VaBeachTennis
12-26-2009, 06:49 AM
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

Do you have a video that you have posted, so people can compare your skills to Jolly's??? Maybe you have already posted one, but I usually find it's easy for people to **** all over someone's video and technique when they have posted their own video and put themselves out there. Maybe you are the exception to the rule?

5263
12-26-2009, 09:05 AM
^^ I'd have to respectively disagree about the Federer bit, Seeing him live, 2008-2009 US open..His forehand pierces the court 75% of the time, He hits with A LOT of topspin but its not the loopy type, it really rotates into the court. When he wants to he can raise his trajectory but I'd say 3/4 vorhands are hitting through the court taking time away from his opponents.

Also jollys shots are usually landing around the feet, it would take an exceptionally talented 4.5 player to take these strikes on the rise(consistently) & return it back to a place where they can hurt him.

Also Jolly does raise his trajectory and hits slower in sets for example: http://vimeo.com/3314019
I agree that if jolly was to take the tips you have passed on to him and practice them, that would be a scary heavy ball he would produce. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

For comparison sake, this video provided by aimr75 demonstrates a pro's [gasquets] insane spin[even with a continental forehand!!] (no wonder he camps so deep behind the baseline). http://vimeo.com/2902674 .So I believe its a style difference, but the best can mix it up, as you can see when gasquet & fed attacks they almost always lower the trajectory and hit through that court with insane racquet head speed.

--HOWEVER I cannot speak for J011y and I have no intentions of just bumping my head into you guys conversation, I just wanted to add my spin into it. Feel free to tell me off.

Glad to see your comments and interest, except that you don't seem to notice we are saying about the same things in general.

On Fed, I said the trouble starts when he goes too far in that direction. It's a relative thing and too far for Fed is not the same as too far for Jolly. I never suggested that Fed hits a softer loopy ball on avg! IMO Fed struggled (for him anyway) in early 08 because he was trying to hit thru the court too much even for him, which resulted in high UE counts and missing long quite often. He did better in the US open you cite and won in 08 and did well up until latter sets of the final in 09, where several things went wrong for him.

I also never suggested Jolly should not mix it up, but in fact that is what I think he should do. In the vid there was not much of a mix, and if you think there was, I would have to disagree on that point. I pointed out the one ball that I thought he did something a little dif with in the direction I'm suggesting.

Jolly, I'm not one of the trolls busting on you here, but given some match results and even more your comments about how your serve must account for you getting games on better players, IMO you need to realize that there is a need to make more shots in a row on your avg point. I don't think I would have to read those comments by you or see match results to have figured this out that consistency needs to improve for you to win more matches. It is evident in that current stroke to me that you will miss too often. I think you are seeing this too and making some excellent adjustments in form and mental approach. And also agree, you still have to take your cuts at times and enjoy this game, as that is why we play. You don't want to lose that aspect of your game anyway!

Recon
12-26-2009, 06:14 PM
lol wtf jolly is an awful player in every video I've seen (this one included). what heavy ball are you talking about? are we watching the same video? I see a disastrous serve, a weak, flawed forehand, and a weak, flawed backhand. oh and crap movement. I don't mean to beat up on the guy gratuitously, but if you consider him a good player then nobody should be heeding your tennis advice.

I gave no advice in my whole post. Neither did I call him a good player. Though I will state this clearly, you sir, are an idiot. Your lack of interpretation proves this.

Recon
12-27-2009, 01:37 AM
Glad to see your comments and interest, except that you don't seem to notice we are saying about the same things in general.

On Fed, I said the trouble starts when he goes too far in that direction. It's a relative thing and too far for Fed is not the same as too far for Jolly. I never suggested that Fed hits a softer loopy ball on avg! IMO Fed struggled (for him anyway) in early 08 because he was trying to hit thru the court too much even for him, which resulted in high UE counts and missing long quite often. He did better in the US open you cite and won in 08 and did well up until latter sets of the final in 09, where several things went wrong for him.

I also never suggested Jolly should not mix it up, but in fact that is what I think he should do. In the vid there was not much of a mix, and if you think there was, I would have to disagree on that point. I pointed out the one ball that I thought he did something a little dif with in the direction I'm suggesting.

Jolly, I'm not one of the trolls busting on you here, but given some match results and even more your comments about how your serve must account for you getting games on better players, IMO you need to realize that there is a need to make more shots in a row on your avg point. I don't think I would have to read those comments by you or see match results to have figured this out that consistency needs to improve for you to win more matches. It is evident in that current stroke to me that you will miss too often. I think you are seeing this too and making some excellent adjustments in form and mental approach. And also agree, you still have to take your cuts at times and enjoy this game, as that is why we play. You don't want to lose that aspect of your game anyway!

On Fed, he does make alot of UE's this is known, so i'll have to agree with you on that, though when the US Open comes around he usually plays his best tennis that i've SEEN. I can't really comment on the matches I watch through the television because the camera angle sucks, you cant really see the trajectory, when will they have court level view!!?

The mix of trajectory is agreed upon, this is true for any player, the ability to hit a high dipping topspin shot to force the opposition into an uncomfortable position/striking range then finishing it off with a piercing ball should be tools in serious players toolbox.

I watch pro tennis when it comes around my way in NY, & I have to say pros are freaking machines man! they rarely miss a ball unless forced or being too aggressive. It's really crazy seeing them pound ground-strokes routinely at a high level of pace and spin. When I first saw tennis on TV, I already had training under my belt so I thought.."I can do that". Seeing it live!? blew my damn mind. Whole different ball game. I feel like the consistency and mental game is under appreciated and under shadowed by the pretty strokes. A coach of mine who was ranked REALLY high, top 60, told me that once you get into the top 300 almost all pros have weapons and their favorite shots to hit, the only thing that separates the top 100 and so forth is the mental game.

TennisandMusic
12-27-2009, 04:34 AM
I agree pretty much with what you said, and appreciate the input. The only 4.5s that can really stand up to me in a groundstroke game are the top singles/sandbagging (in the eye of the observer) players and up. Against the very best players that I play, I need my serve to carry me (I still lose of course, but it is the serve that lets me put up some games on the board) because their movement and shot anticipation is so much better, if not the quality of the ball, that in a rally off the ground every shot I lose a little bit of a step on them until they win the point. They also change direction on the ball better than I do.

Video really takes away from the pace/spin of the shots, but I currently hit a pretty mean ball, and have hit with probably over 40 boardmembers.

As far as taking the shots on the rise and returning them back. I have a buddy whom I would call the 5.0 equiv of Gilles Simon. Dude stands right in on the baseline and hits everything on the rise, and changes direction on the ball incredibly well. My serve is bigger, but we have the most fierce baseline points ever, with me basically throwing the kitchen sink at him, and him standing in and dishing it back out. Not uncommon for us to have several 30+ stroke points in baseline games to 21.

J

Come on man, why do you talk like this after people posted your results? The only people that can stand up to your are 4.5's that are actually sand bagging? Why do you say that kinda thing?

If I were you I would re-evaluate your game. Have you ever considered that you use a racquet that is way too heavy for you? Look at your videos. You look like you have trouble heaving that thing that around. It certainly doesn't look like something that is easy for you. You lose to every 4.0 and up pretty much in tournaments, based on the records that people posted here. You have claimed to have world class coaching. What are they teaching you? If that was the case, shouldn't you be regularly beating 4.0's and above? What about the beating a 3.5 with a broom? Or saying you hit more topspin than anyone on the planet (a couple years back)? Or talking about winning junior tournaments with "exceptional footwork", which seems to be an area you are really lacking in based on your vids? I mean I KNOW I suck, and that's why I leave the garbage in my videos. If the pros are making mistakes by the dozens in their matches, why do people on youtube edit them all out to make it look like they are tennis geniuses that never make an error? Absurd.

I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but man, you really know how to talk some trash. Why do you do it? Where do you get the idea to name a simple kevlar/poly hybrid after yourself, and AFTER someone else suggested it to you in the first place?

To everyone else, you gotta stop lionizing this guy, just because of how he talks. Based on his videos, there isn't a ton of pace and spin on his shots. Look how long the shots take to go from end to end. I see no kick off the court, even on the clay, and the guy he is always playing with looks like an out of shape older man who can barely keep the ball in play.

Man, seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it gets tiresome to constantly read this load in almost every section on this board. Of course I can "not read it" as is often the retort, but I dunno. Isn't that like saying, if you don't like pollution move to a different city? Why wouldn't we just clean things up?

Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.

J011yroger
12-27-2009, 05:45 AM
^^^ Would you care to take the bet I proposed in post #88?

J

5263
12-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.

Well I'll speak up on the other side of this and I don't agree that anyone needed to say anything on this.

I think Jolly's posts are some of the most interesting on this forum and that he has a personality that really comes thru in them. He's a guy that I think I'd really enjoy getting out to the courts with if he lived closer. Can he talk alittle trash now and again? Sure, but he does it with a style that is laid back and rarely if ever hurtful towards others (that I have seen anyway). He's written some exceptionally useful post on string and I think that alone shows quite a bit about his skills.

He's been willing to post several vids of his hitting, so he's not trying to hide behind just words in a post. If you don't think he hits a heavy ball, you are just kidding yourself. His ball gets thru the court and is penetrating. It's not going to kick up with that trajectory, no matter how much spin he imparts, as it can't get vert enough on the "dip to bounce". Pretty open of him to be willing to share his vids and overall perspective for any who might enjoy them.

As to his record, I've met several players who hit a very nice ball (their best 7 of 10) who didn't win a lot of league matches for one reason or another. I think many are like Jolly in that they take great enjoyment in each BIg whack at the ball. It feels so good to them to really get a hold of one hit just right! Much like golfers who can drive 350 on occasion, but don't putt well enough to score as well. Some of these players go on to adjust and plug holes in their games and become much better winners down the road. Seems Jolly is intent on making just this type of improvements and seeks good coaching along the way. I can't see why anyone would say he doesn't knock the tar out of the ball, cause he does.

LeeD
12-27-2009, 09:03 AM
WOW... :shock::shock: JOLLY !!!
Just read you don't play in temps below 65. No wonder you look like you hit a gazillion mph and move like a pro.
I don't play when it's over 65, am 60, use Dunlop's heaviest balls, use heavy rackets with dead strings, and move like a hippo.

ms87
12-27-2009, 12:23 PM
Come on man, why do you talk like this after people posted your results? The only people that can stand up to your are 4.5's that are actually sand bagging? Why do you say that kinda thing?

If I were you I would re-evaluate your game. Have you ever considered that you use a racquet that is way too heavy for you? Look at your videos. You look like you have trouble heaving that thing that around. It certainly doesn't look like something that is easy for you. You lose to every 4.0 and up pretty much in tournaments, based on the records that people posted here. You have claimed to have world class coaching. What are they teaching you? If that was the case, shouldn't you be regularly beating 4.0's and above? What about the beating a 3.5 with a broom? Or saying you hit more topspin than anyone on the planet (a couple years back)? Or talking about winning junior tournaments with "exceptional footwork", which seems to be an area you are really lacking in based on your vids? I mean I KNOW I suck, and that's why I leave the garbage in my videos. If the pros are making mistakes by the dozens in their matches, why do people on youtube edit them all out to make it look like they are tennis geniuses that never make an error? Absurd.

I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but man, you really know how to talk some trash. Why do you do it? Where do you get the idea to name a simple kevlar/poly hybrid after yourself, and AFTER someone else suggested it to you in the first place?

To everyone else, you gotta stop lionizing this guy, just because of how he talks. Based on his videos, there isn't a ton of pace and spin on his shots. Look how long the shots take to go from end to end. I see no kick off the court, even on the clay, and the guy he is always playing with looks like an out of shape older man who can barely keep the ball in play.

Man, seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it gets tiresome to constantly read this load in almost every section on this board. Of course I can "not read it" as is often the retort, but I dunno. Isn't that like saying, if you don't like pollution move to a different city? Why wouldn't we just clean things up?

Well, I know I'm the one who looks bad here, but somebody has to say it. Oh well.

THANK YOU

by the way, you don't look bad here - the one who looks bad is the *** with the cult following of 3.0 worshippers

perhaps I should repeat myself: jolly's technique is seriously flawed on every stroke. his forehand is a MESS. his backhand is a MESS. his serve is a MESS. I haven't seen a lot of volleys so I can't comment there (although the ones I did see were crappy). This is a 3.5 player who can play (and lose to) 4.0's on a GOOD DAY.

The real irony is that he is a big, physically fit guy who clearly has a passion for tennis; he has the potential to be a great player if he wasn't so stubborn and egotistical.

J011yroger
12-27-2009, 08:09 PM
^^^ Does that mean you will take the bet?

J

5263
12-27-2009, 08:16 PM
^^^ Does that mean you will take the bet?

J

Don't sweat guys like this, as their vids probably wouldn't look any better, and if they do have a lot more skill, they would not be threatened by what you have to say about your game.

J011yroger
12-27-2009, 08:54 PM
Don't sweat guys like this, as their vids probably wouldn't look any better, and if they do have a lot more skill, they would not be threatened by what you have to say about your game.

It doesn't bother me in the least, I actually know what I can and can't do, and who I have really lost to and beaten, you know, in the real world. Just want to show the rest of the kind folks here that they are just running their mouth, and not willing to back it up in any way.

J

Topaz
12-28-2009, 06:50 AM
Fair???

Sorry, I don't recall ever seeing you post before, but you sound like you believe what you wrote. Would you be up for a small wager? Perhaps a $20 TW gift card? You can send them to someone's e-mail address.

Now that I am pretty healthy I am going to try to play a full schedule of tournaments in 2010. You can state what you think my level of play is, and if I exceed that in tournament play, you can send me the gift card, if I match your stated level, then you can pay me.

Fair?

J

So, no matter what happens, Jolly gets paid/gc?!?

Those are some interesting terms.

Topaz
12-28-2009, 07:30 AM
The description and the word elasticity by BB is all good stuffs. I would say try to create as much elasticity as possible to promote whippiness. However, anytime you detect a slight pressure at the wrist, you're going too far and you will end up with a wrist pain if you keep it up.

This is what I'm currently experiencing...too much whippy and a lot of pain!


Also, another thing a player can do is move the heel of their palm against the butt of the handle (for what it was designed for). This allows a player to maintain a similar grip but it steadies the racquet in the hand more. This coincides with "choking" up on the handle. The heel acts as a brace.

Excellent pointer, thanks!

tfm1973
12-28-2009, 08:18 AM
^^^ Does that mean you will take the bet?

J

i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses. :)

JoelDali
12-28-2009, 10:21 AM
i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses. :)

Please be careful J0lly...

http://www.yeah-oops.com/wp-content/uploads/its_a_trap.jpg

tfm1973
12-28-2009, 10:34 AM
joeldali -- what's the trap? either he wins 25% of his matches or he doesn't. it's clear some of his past results were likely hampered by his injuries. but he's in fighting shape again and his confidence is high.

if it's a trap because i'm not going to pay up if i lose -- i'm a known poster and i have a dozen or so positive references in the for sale section. i'm a very low risk for welching on the bet. $100 is a very small price to pay to satisfy my curiosity. if there's a 3rd party who wants to hold my $100 -- i'm fine with that too.

JoelDali
12-28-2009, 10:48 AM
Settle down man, I love the 'it a trap' Internet thing when applied to J0lly being attacked or targeted.

:)

Your avatar rocks by the way.

I think I recognize her.

zapvor
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
i appreciate Jolly willing to play and post videos. 99% other posters who say how great they are are just that-saying it. no video

tfm1973
12-28-2009, 10:57 AM
joeldali -- ahh gotcha. actually i'm curious and don't mind if i lose. i hope jolly accepts the bet.

also i'm waiting for admiral ackbar to tell me it's a trap.

:)

drakulie
12-28-2009, 11:00 AM
i appreciate Jolly willing to play and post videos.

I do as well. However, Jo11y is the one who placed a bet after being called out for once again stating the only ones who could handle his ground game are 4.5's and above, when fact is>>> he is winless against this level of play and those below this level (4.5) are doing fairly well against him. Additionally, as Topaz pointed out>>> ain't much of a bet if it is a "win/win" for him. (perhaps he didn't realize he worded his words incorrectly).

JoelDali
12-28-2009, 11:25 AM
The NTRP numbers do not lie.

ms87
12-28-2009, 12:17 PM
To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed? Does it make him a better player than he is? Or does that simply mean I have no business pointing out the flaws in his game, even though they are objectively there regardless of who points them out?

For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.

When I see jolly's videos, I see a player who can easily be broken down. He has oriented his entire game around power but he does not generate it properly. Why do you need a heavier racquet than any touring professional? It's because your technique sucks and the easiest way to generate power (if you don't care about consistency or control) is to turn your racquet into a club. Of course, a heavy racquet with bad technique is inviting injury, but you've already learned that the hard way.

This approach may be fine at the 3.5 level where your opponent will give you plenty of unforced errors to compensate for your own and your pace will occasionally force errors.
Then you step up to 4.0 and you may be able to keep up if you are having a good day and your opponent is having a bad one.
At 4.5, you are making far more errors than your opponent and your pace (which really isn't that impressive to begin with) no longer intimidates your opponent.
Do jolly's tournament results really surprise anyone?

The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

Topaz
12-28-2009, 12:42 PM
For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.



And this is part of the problem...it seems the majority of posters on this board do not understand how actual NTRP ratings work...you can't call yourself a 4.5 (or any other level) until you beat (or at least are competitive with) other players at that same level.

Seems like lots of folks around here read those guidelines and declare themselves a 4.5+ without ever leaving the couch!

Now, before the Jollybrigade gets on me...I'm not accusing him specifically of this (I know he isn't a couch player), but I do think he has a fundamental misunderstanding of ratings. As do many, many posters these days.

Topaz
12-28-2009, 12:43 PM
Additionally, as Topaz pointed out>>> ain't much of a bet if it is a "win/win" for him. (perhaps he didn't realize he worded his words incorrectly).

That's what I was wondering, too...sounded like a real nice bet for Jolly, he wins if he wins, and he wins if he loses. Those are my kinda odds!

mikeler
12-28-2009, 01:03 PM
I'd take that bet. Just wait for a really weak Open draw. If you win one match, then lose the next one you are at 50%! No more tournaments the rest of the year!

EP1998
12-28-2009, 01:14 PM
that is true! look for one without any prize money.

mikeler
12-28-2009, 01:32 PM
that is true! look for one without any prize money.


Bingo!!!!!

zapvor
12-28-2009, 02:21 PM
To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed? Does it make him a better player than he is? Or does that simply mean I have no business pointing out the flaws in his game, even though they are objectively there regardless of who points them out?

For the record, I am a 5.0 tournament player. I know this not because of self rating but because I win matches at the 5.0 level against other players who win at the 5.0 level.

When I see jolly's videos, I see a player who can easily be broken down. He has oriented his entire game around power but he does not generate it properly. Why do you need a heavier racquet than any touring professional? It's because your technique sucks and the easiest way to generate power (if you don't care about consistency or control) is to turn your racquet into a club. Of course, a heavy racquet with bad technique is inviting injury, but you've already learned that the hard way.

This approach may be fine at the 3.5 level where your opponent will give you plenty of unforced errors to compensate for your own and your pace will occasionally force errors.
Then you step up to 4.0 and you may be able to keep up if you are having a good day and your opponent is having a bad one.
At 4.5, you are making far more errors than your opponent and your pace (which really isn't that impressive to begin with) no longer intimidates your opponent.
Do jolly's tournament results really surprise anyone?

The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

wasnt pointing at anyone specfic. just my experience on here. its not relevant, but since you are saying you are 5.0, care to show results/ video?

blue12
12-28-2009, 02:37 PM
It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!
On the wrist thing which this post was originally about, i don't really see the wrist movement in the Federer/ Nadal video that some were talking about, not until the follow through is there much wrist.
Plus you guys ever here of the Wrist assist that Brad Gilbert tried to market?
The idea behind the thing was that club level players use way too much wrist.
Ha! It keeps your wrist really still so you can make more solid contact. That's what Gilbert says anyway. I believe it!

5263
12-28-2009, 03:41 PM
It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!
On the wrist thing which this post was originally about, i don't really see the wrist movement in the Federer/ Nadal video that some were talking about, not until the follow through is there much wrist.
Plus you guys ever here of the Wrist assist that Brad Gilbert tried to market?
The idea behind the thing was that club level players use way too much wrist.
Ha! It keeps your wrist really still so you can make more solid contact. That's what Gilbert says anyway. I believe it!

Nice post on each point.

aimr75
12-28-2009, 05:23 PM
To those of you who respond to my posts with finger pointing and calls for me to post videos; how are my videos (or even level of play) relevant? Let's suppose I make and post a video. Turns out I'm a 3.0 player. Does that mean jolly's technique is no longer flawed?

Well, take the real world for example, would you take lessons and advice from a coach that has the ability and experience of a 3.0? even if you are a 5.0, you seem mostly interested in just telling people how bad they are without giving any real helpful advice anyway.

J011yroger
12-28-2009, 06:53 PM
Fair???



So, no matter what happens, Jolly gets paid/gc?!?

Those are some interesting terms.

lol, ok, I never claimed to be smart.

Obviously a typo on my part.

Listen to what I mean, not what I say.

J

J011yroger
12-28-2009, 06:54 PM
i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses. :)

Done. *Virtual Handshake*

J

J011yroger
12-28-2009, 07:07 PM
It didn't look to me like Jolly was hitting all that bad. I would take it easy with the movement though and try to stay more still and balanced before and after ball contact. That's my two cents!

Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.

Movement wise I can't stay in a prolonged groundstroke exchange with a better player than me because I keep losing 1/2 a step on every stroke, especially on clay. It is something that I recognize needs to be addressed, and that I work hard at, but unfortunately something that I lack natural aptitude for, so hopefully I can make up for it with stubbornness. I can kind of volley now due to sheer refusal to admit that I have zero natural touch or ability at net.

If stubbornness and hard work can't get it done, I will have to do something else. Perhaps a brain matter transplant like in young frankenstein could help.

J

J011yroger
12-28-2009, 07:11 PM
The sad thing is that when someone points out problems with his game, he doesn't ask for specific critiques (you know, like someone who is actually interested in improving) but rather huffs and puffs and proposes bets like a 5th grader.

Funny... I think I discuss it a lot with people whom I respect. Even in this very thread.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was huffing and puffing, I just wanted you to put your money where your mouth was, because I don't think that deep down you believe what you wrote.

Don't tell me. Show me, show me that you believe what you wrote.

J

onehandbh
12-28-2009, 08:24 PM
When I am hitting my FH well, my wrist is relaxed during the take back
and very passive overall in conscious effort, but at impact I would say it
is firm and sort of forms a near right angle w/my forearm.

When I am more actively using my wrist my FH is usually worse, shanking more
and requiring more effort.

tfm1973
12-28-2009, 09:20 PM
Done. *Virtual Handshake*

J


Badda Bing. *spits in hand* we gots ourselves a bet. good luck to you in 2010!

Spinz
12-29-2009, 05:24 AM
Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.

Movement wise I can't stay in a prolonged groundstroke exchange with a better player than me because I keep losing 1/2 a step on every stroke, especially on clay. It is something that I recognize needs to be addressed, and that I work hard at, but unfortunately something that I lack natural aptitude for, so hopefully I can make up for it with stubbornness. I can kind of volley now due to sheer refusal to admit that I have zero natural touch or ability at net.



J


I watched some of your set video. One thing I noticed about the movement is your first step and recovery. Not the speed so much as the place. Sometimes it seems you do not recover to the most likely spot and/or are ready to move to that area where the ball is likely to go based on the shot or serve you hit. Then you have to scramble a bit. In some cases this has happened when you were in control of the point. This could be a result of too many dead ball drills. You should work with your teaching pro or high level friends on pattern drills and drills with serve, step into the court to the right place drills. Against better players you need those extra second as you've already noticed.

J011yroger
12-29-2009, 02:34 PM
I watched some of your set video. One thing I noticed about the movement is your first step and recovery. Not the speed so much as the place. Sometimes it seems you do not recover to the most likely spot and/or are ready to move to that area where the ball is likely to go based on the shot or serve you hit. Then you have to scramble a bit. In some cases this has happened when you were in control of the point. This could be a result of too many dead ball drills. You should work with your teaching pro or high level friends on pattern drills and drills with serve, step into the court to the right place drills. Against better players you need those extra second as you've already noticed.

Ya, I believe those were last winter, I have been much more focused on playing groundstroke games, and practice sets since mid summer. I will have to film another match, but I am hesitant to do so against someone unless I am sure I can cover the T serve pretty well, would be an expensive ace that took out my camera,

J

blue12
12-29-2009, 09:25 PM
Excellent point. I tell my friends that when I am playing I feel like a labrador retriever puppy on a hardwood floor. All energy and no brakes.



J

Jolly movement is technique just like strokes are. You can improve it just like you can improve strokes. Balance is the key though, stopping and starting and staying in control is all about never losing your balance.

J011yroger
12-30-2009, 05:33 PM
Jolly movement is technique just like strokes are. You can improve it just like you can improve strokes. Balance is the key though, stopping and starting and staying in control is all about never losing your balance.

Ya, for sure, and I work hard at it off court, and on, but it is one of the things that is harder and doesn't come as naturally to me.

J

blue12
12-31-2009, 01:01 PM
Yeah i'm about the same way. I honestly thought i was hopeless until recently. I've always moved much better forward and backwards than side to side though. But i've been doing some things that have really helped. Some things i've figured out just by hitting a million balls though and i've learned a lot about movement by watching you tube videos of Simon, Fed, safin and Jokovic.

J011yroger
12-31-2009, 03:17 PM
^^^ I do a lot of plyo, and agility drills, as well as balance stuff off court. It wasn't pretty when I started, but as the weeks went on I got better and better at it. Still have a long way to go, but there is hope.

J

maverick66
12-31-2009, 03:27 PM
But i've been doing some things that have really helped. Some things i've figured out just by hitting a million balls though and i've learned a lot about movement by watching you tube videos of Simon, Fed, safin and Jokovic.

Thats about only thing watching pros is good for. Movement patterns and putting together plays. You can learn a ton by watching how they position themselves and how they move for a balls. you can actually apply these to your game instead of trying to mimic swings which is a good way to fail.

Spinz
01-01-2010, 07:39 AM
Thats about only thing watching pros is good for. Movement patterns and putting together plays. You can learn a ton by watching how they position themselves and how they move for a balls. you can actually apply these to your game instead of trying to mimic swings which is a good way to fail.

+1. I have read threads on here that are so technical in terms of grips and backswings when a lot of the players should be looking at the feet getting to contact, at contact and in recovery.

blue12
01-03-2010, 12:20 AM
^^^ I do a lot of plyo, and agility drills, as well as balance stuff off court. It wasn't pretty when I started, but as the weeks went on I got better and better at it. Still have a long way to go, but there is hope.

J

Just another opinion but i think you look a lot better in your videos when you step in on your backhand. I noticed you do it on your forehand occasionally as well when you are attacking. You'd gain a lot of time if you did it at the baseline as well, rather then moving up then back and setting on your back foot. If you just stayed up on your front foot off both sides you'd eliminate a lot of unnecessary movement. It's kind of a Davydenko style of play, at least on the forehand side, cause just about everybody steps in on a two hander if they have time.

Power Player
01-03-2010, 08:57 AM
When I am hitting my FH well, my wrist is relaxed during the take back
and very passive overall in conscious effort, but at impact I would say it
is firm and sort of forms a near right angle w/my forearm.

When I am more actively using my wrist my FH is usually worse, shanking more
and requiring more effort.

I am noticing the same thing. I also notice that I could get away with a looser wrist on less demanding sticks, but in order to hit clean shots with players sticks, I have to keep my wrist like yours on impact. I use my wrists too much, always have. Bad habit even as a junior player that I have to fix.

Counter
01-03-2010, 07:44 PM
Hi all,

A question that I think might be relevant, or at least related, to the topic:

In hitting a forehand, how does the issue of firm versus loose wrist relate to that of supination (during backswing) and subsequent pronation (during forward swing) of the wrist and the forearm? Could you say that such pronation amounts to, or implies, 'loosening' the wrist? Or are these in fact two independent issues? (As you might suspect, I'm also not totally clear on what constitutes a 'firm' wrist, as opposed to a 'loose' one.)

In my limited understanding at least, one is supposed to supinate during the backswing, and then again to pronate one's wrist during the swing forward (specifically, just before impact)... If this assumption is actually wrong, I'd also like to hear it!

Thanks,
Counter.

aimr75
01-03-2010, 08:06 PM
In my limited understanding at least, one is supposed to supinate during the backswing, and then again to pronate one's wrist during the swing forward (specifically, just before impact)... If this assumption is actually wrong, I'd also like to hear it!

as far as i understand it, pronation occurs where the forearm turns counterclockwise for a righty.. so in the take back, if the hitting face of the racquet faces the ground or back fence, then the forearm has pronated.. supination occurs when the forearm rotates clockwise, hence in the forward swing to the ball, supination occurs.. there after, the arm naturally pronates in the follow through..

I think there is some contention with guys like fed where people would argue the follow through pronation occurs slightly before contact.. dont know if this is the case

KenC
01-04-2010, 12:06 AM
as far as i understand it, pronation occurs where the forearm turns counterclockwise for a righty..

Pronation involves rotating your forearm from palm up to palm down, or in that rotating direction. Supination is the opposite.

aimr75
01-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Pronation involves rotating your forearm from palm up to palm down, or in that rotating direction. Supination is the opposite.

thanks, i should have described it that way.. i remember seeing a photo that shows this very thing

smoothtennis
01-05-2010, 01:00 PM
You guys need to start a new JollyBet Thread, LOL. That's a cool bet guys - and gives Jolly more motivation to train with intensity.

One other caveat to the bet? Do Jolly's wins have to be against someone 4.5 or highter to count as a win? I mean...I entered an Open tournament and pulled out at win when I was rated a 3.5 against a good junior who self destructed.

Sup2Dresq
01-05-2010, 02:16 PM
You guys need to start a new JollyBet Thread, LOL. That's a cool bet guys - and gives Jolly more motivation to train with intensity.

One other caveat to the bet? Do Jolly's wins have to be against someone 4.5 or highter to count as a win? I mean...I entered an Open tournament and pulled out at win when I was rated a 3.5 against a good junior who self destructed.

I heard someone won a first round match at the national indoor open tournament last month at Flushing Meadows.. against a 3.0 (well I'm guessing 3.0 since the person lost to a 4.0 6-0, 6-3 earlier in the year and zero wins in a main draw).

Sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not. Kind of like.. sometimes you feel like a nut.. sometimes you don't (can someone tell me the candy bar commercial that came from?)

smoothtennis
01-06-2010, 07:13 AM
I heard someone won a first round match at the national indoor open tournament last month at Flushing Meadows.. against a 3.0 (well I'm guessing 3.0 since the person lost to a 4.0 6-0, 6-3 earlier in the year and zero wins in a main draw).

Sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not. Kind of like.. sometimes you feel like a nut.. sometimes you don't (can someone tell me the candy bar commercial that came from?)

Dude - are you kidding?! Almond Joy has nuts, Mounds don't!

5263
01-09-2010, 05:51 AM
:) The wrist is a VERY COMPLEX joint?

What is complex? What is complex about that? Your grip pressure a player has on the handle stiffens the wrist. What is complex about that?

There is no complexity here.


From John Yandell-
This is a complex and important topic. There is no doubt that one of the changes at the top of the game is the more relaxed swing styles and the huge variety of wiper and reverse finishes.

Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

J011yroger
01-09-2010, 08:15 AM
Just another opinion but i think you look a lot better in your videos when you step in on your backhand. I noticed you do it on your forehand occasionally as well when you are attacking. You'd gain a lot of time if you did it at the baseline as well, rather then moving up then back and setting on your back foot. If you just stayed up on your front foot off both sides you'd eliminate a lot of unnecessary movement. It's kind of a Davydenko style of play, at least on the forehand side, cause just about everybody steps in on a two hander if they have time.

Nope, I know you are right, sometimes I don't realize when I do, and when I don't have time.

But for sure it is a better ball.

J

LeeD
01-09-2010, 09:02 AM
As in the serve, wrist is the joint that allows the chain to work.
Try hitting serves or forehands with a LOCKED wrist, like wrap it in tape or put it in a plaster cast. Both shots lose 50% power immediately!
But you don't SNAP your wrist, you loosen it at backswing to allow it to pivot on your forward swing, and hopefully try to tighten it at impact.

JoelDali
08-17-2011, 08:58 PM
i got a bet for you jolly. now that you are healthy and rested and hopefully didn't eat too much during the holidays (i know i did) - you look ready for tournaments in 2010. just enter open tournaments like you normally would in singles. by june 1st, 2010 -- if you win 25% of your matches or more i'll gladly pay you a $100 tenniswarehouse.com gift card. if you are at 24% or less in win percentage -- you pay me $100 in tenniswarehouse.com gift card.

it's a win-win. you have extra motivation for your matches. you win 25% or more of your matches and you prove to your naysayers that you belong at the Open Tournament level.

jollyroger win conditions:
-- matches must be completed. withdraws, defaults, no shows do not count.
-- all matches must be from January 1, 2010 to June 1, 2010.
-- matches must be in Men's Open Singles
-- tournaments must be USTA sanctioned
-- must win 25% or more matches

do we have a bet? the TennisWarehouse.com forum members and God can be our witnesses. :)

Well, did you pay him yet or what?

Double_Bagel
05-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Great thread. So....who won the bet??

Double_Bagel
05-10-2013, 05:40 PM
Sorry to necro this thread, but my curiosity is killing me!

J011yroger
05-11-2013, 04:17 AM
I won, he never paid.

J

J011yroger
05-11-2013, 04:34 AM
It was pretty sad; after it became obvious that I couldn't lose, he tried to restructure the bet, and back out of it.

He quit posting on the boards after the bet, probably has a different name now.

J

Double_Bagel
05-12-2013, 03:29 PM
That's a shame.