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CallOfBooty
12-19-2009, 09:00 PM
I normally use the continental grip for both my flat serve and my kick serve. Lately I noticed that I have been double faulting more than I should be. I switched my grip on the second serve to an eastern backhand grip so that I could hit with more spin on the kick serve. I noticed very few double faults, but sometimes the ball would land short in the service box and my opponent would attack it. I have used the eastern backhand grip to learn the kick serve as advised by my first coach. I switched coaches and he told me to use continental. Now I have a new coach and he hasn't talked about my serving grips at all.

I have had ample experience with both the continental and eastern backhand grips for the kick serve. Would you recommend that I learn how to double fault less with the continental grip or continue to use and try to gain depth and height with the eastern backhand grip?

LeeD
12-20-2009, 03:05 PM
Lots of players **** the wrist when they go for conti second serves, to get the extra spin that ebh would give, but not needing to change grip especially if you S/V.
Already so many grips in tennis, it's hard to want to add ONE more.
"cocking" means to start your service motion with the wrist angled down..

NineEleven
12-21-2009, 02:44 AM
Lots of players **** the wrist when they go for conti second serves, to get the extra spin that ebh would give, but not needing to change grip especially if you S/V.
Already so many grips in tennis, it's hard to want to add ONE more.
"cocking" means to start your service motion with the wrist angled down..


oh i am on this topic now..

So your saying by cocking one's conti grip= EBH?

I sometimes try cocking and it does feel like i can spin the second serve bettter.

hows does it work.

I was watchin some videos on ednerg and i noticed he does this.. or am i wrong

thanks

LeeD
12-21-2009, 08:58 AM
If you notice it works, it works. It works for almost every good player too.
And when you eliminate ONE grip change, it allows you to be more consistent IF the return comes back hard, deep, and forcing.
And when you S/V, you find your volley grip immediately, which is better than fumbling around to find your volley grip.

elee3
12-25-2009, 12:25 PM
I have the same exact thing. Double fault way less with a eastern backhand grip on 2nd serve kick serves. If I do use a kick serve on the first serve I use a continental usually, sometimes eastern backhand. I'm pretty adaptable so I continued using both mixing it up. Grip isn't the only thing I mix up on my kick serves, I also mix up the path of the racquet. On 2nd serves I tend to move across the ball more giving it more spin. On 1st serve kick serves I tend to move through the ball more for more speed.

Fedace
12-25-2009, 12:32 PM
you can't hit the kick wiht continental grip.....too difficult.

Power Player
12-25-2009, 03:37 PM
you can't hit the kick wiht continental grip.....too difficult.

How many people have the login and the password to this troll account?

LeeD
12-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Fedace, you can hit a twist serve with almost any grip.
Best I'd faced was RollieZalameda, #1 for CanadaCollege back around '79. He used a forehand side of continental, could bounce this lefty twists higher than my forehand with an easy, sorta slow swing.
In the '77 AAA high school finals, all city, he beat PeanutLouie 6 and 0 using that high bouncing serve to drive her nuts in the end....and a A level low volley, of course.
I use pure continental, same as volley and overhead, for all my serves. Since my biggest problem is hitting shorter second serves, switching closer to EBH would shorten the serves even more. Sometimes, when things are going deep enough, I often switch my twist grip to forehand side of conti to get great depth.

Bud
12-25-2009, 10:12 PM
Lots of players c.ock the wrist when they go for conti second serves, to get the extra spin that ebh would give, but not needing to change grip especially if you S/V.
Already so many grips in tennis, it's hard to want to add ONE more.
"cocking" means to start your service motion with the wrist angled down..

oh i am on this topic now..

So your saying by cocking one's conti grip= EBH?

I sometimes try cocking and it does feel like i can spin the second serve bettter.

hows does it work.

I was watchin some videos on ednerg and i noticed he does this.. or am i wrong

thanks

If you notice it works, it works. It works for almost every good player too.
And when you eliminate ONE grip change, it allows you to be more consistent IF the return comes back hard, deep, and forcing.
And when you S/V, you find your volley grip immediately, which is better than fumbling around to find your volley grip.

After reading your post... I tried 'cocking' the wrist like you described and it definitely delivers more spin and less pace by changing the orientation of the racquet face as it strikes the ball... closer to that of an eastern grip.

I'm going to fiddle around with it some more. Right now, it feels a bit awkward... but it's definitely easier to kick the serve in using this 'cocked' continental grip.

Davis937
12-26-2009, 01:00 AM
Like most of us here, I initially learned to use a Continental grip for both my first and second serves ... two years ago I was determined to learn the kick serve ... and ... as recommended by several friends I switched my serving grip to the EBH ... I now use the EBH for all of my serves ... at first it was difficult serving with the grip, but it's now ingrained pretty strongly for me ... I hit a combination topspin/slice for my first serve ... like most intermediates, I continue to work on my kick serve (after two years) ... I rarely DF with the kick, however, I still work on getting a higher kick and greater pace (... I know, a little bit of working at odds with these two goals, but would like to find a happy medium ... good height on kick with decent pace) ... haven't found that "holy grail" yet ... but ... that's why we're in the game ... to work and improve ... but I degress ... I favor the EBH grip for serves!

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lawlitssoo1n
12-26-2009, 01:02 AM
kick serve depends on the toss and how ur racket follows through

LeeD
12-26-2009, 08:13 AM
As said, I'm with LawL....
Any grip can work.
The reason I choose to serve all serves with conti is that I mainly S/V, where I want to end up with conti while moving quickly to net tracking the fast moving ball. I'm old, anything incoming is fast moving.
Sometimes I stay back after a "testing" serve. For forehand groundies, huge switch to SW forehand grip. I'd rather make that "huge" grip change coming from a consistent grip that I know exactly.
"Testing" serve is the one where you deliberately serve to the opponent's stronger side, to keep him honest and "test" if he still owes it.

Davis937
12-26-2009, 10:21 AM
kick serve depends on the toss and how ur racket follows through

... true ... but don't you think the grip also plays a part on the serve (helps to determine the angle of the racket hitting ball) ... what kind of grip are you using for the kicker?

Davis937
12-26-2009, 10:37 AM
As said, I'm with LawL....
Any grip can work.
The reason I choose to serve all serves with conti is that I mainly S/V, where I want to end up with conti while moving quickly to net tracking the fast moving ball. I'm old, anything incoming is fast moving.
Sometimes I stay back after a "testing" serve. For forehand groundies, huge switch to SW forehand grip. I'd rather make that "huge" grip change coming from a consistent grip that I know exactly.
"Testing" serve is the one where you deliberately serve to the opponent's stronger side, to keep him honest and "test" if he still owes it.

LeeD, I've seen your comments/thoughts on several different threads ... and they are pretty insightful and helpful ... was wondering what level you play at, if you do any coaching (sounds like you do), and what kind of racket/string/tension you play with ... Thanks!

lawlitssoo1n
12-26-2009, 10:49 AM
... true ... but don't you think the grip also plays a part on the serve (helps to determine the angle of the racket hitting ball) ... what kind of grip are you using for the kicker?

i'm the same grip for all my serves. and my toss for my serves are almost the same(if anything off by a little inches), and can serve at different locations. my serve is mostly based on shoulder and hip. i'm not saying grip DOESN'T play a part when serving, for example, hitting your forehand, you can use eastern, western, or semi-western and still be able to hit w/ topspin, because topspin comes form technique not which grip you hold it from.

Bud
12-26-2009, 12:30 PM
i'm the same grip for all my serves. and my toss for my serves are almost the same(if anything off by a little inches), and can serve at different locations. my serve is mostly based on shoulder and hip. i'm not saying grip DOESN'T play a part when serving, for example, hitting your forehand, you can use eastern, western, or semi-western and still be able to hit w/ topspin, because topspin comes form technique not which grip you hold it from.

I think the point is... some serving grips make it easier to hit with more topspin simply because they change the orientation of the racquet face to the ball without actively involving the wrist. The EFH grip is definitely easier to produce a kicking serve with less pace by most who try it.

However, I like LeeD's idea of just 'cocking' the wrist with the continental grip... it makes the serve feel much like the EFH grip and has similar results on the ball as far as pace and spin. It does feel a bit strange at first but I think like anything... once you get used to it, it's fine.

Davis937
12-26-2009, 12:42 PM
i'm the same grip for all my serves. and my toss for my serves are almost the same(if anything off by a little inches), and can serve at different locations. my serve is mostly based on shoulder and hip. i'm not saying grip DOESN'T play a part when serving, for example, hitting your forehand, you can use eastern, western, or semi-western and still be able to hit w/ topspin, because topspin comes form technique not which grip you hold it from.

... sounds like you are an advanced (or stronger) player ... as an intermediate player, I'm not yet at that level wher I can use a single toss for my different serves ... because I use a different ball toss, I probably rely a bit more on my grip (EBH) to achieve the kick serve that I desire (which occurs only periodically) ... I would imagine that the shoulder and hip involvement are crucial if you use that single ball toss ... personally, for me at least, I find it easier to hit the kicker with the EBH ... as mentioned earlier, that grip is so deeply ingrained in my play that I now use it for all of my serves (... I assume I'm in the minority ... i.e. using eBH for all of my serves)

LeeD
12-26-2009, 04:31 PM
I'm about 4.0, use Aero/Mfil 200 18x20's strung around 55.
I'm often at odds with lots of instructors here on these forums because I preach more a natural, athletic type technique rather than a cerebral, thoughtful analysis of my strokes.
I'm also very against conventional thought in instruction regarding how to bring up junior players. We Americans are too strict on limiting our development of the game, hence the few Americans in the top of the Men's tour.
Possibly in the late '70's, my game was up around some kind of 5.5 levels, but that was a long time ago and far far away.

lawlitssoo1n
12-26-2009, 05:24 PM
... sounds like you are an advanced (or stronger) player ... as an intermediate player, I'm not yet at that level wher I can use a single toss for my different serves ... because I use a different ball toss, I probably rely a bit more on my grip (EBH) to achieve the kick serve that I desire (which occurs only periodically) ... I would imagine that the shoulder and hip involvement are crucial if you use that single ball toss ... personally, for me at least, I find it easier to hit the kicker with the EBH ... as mentioned earlier, that grip is so deeply ingrained in my play that I now use it for all of my serves (... I assume I'm in the minority ... i.e. using eBH for all of my serves)

well i learned how to do my kick serve w/ ebh grip and then switched it because my opponents seemed to be able to read it, while returning. but whatever works for you stick w/ that, if your using ebh for all ur serves than that's great!

Davis937
12-26-2009, 11:45 PM
I'm about 4.0, use Aero/Mfil 200 18x20's strung around 55.
I'm often at odds with lots of instructors here on these forums because I preach more a natural, athletic type technique rather than a cerebral, thoughtful analysis of my strokes.
I'm also very against conventional thought in instruction regarding how to bring up junior players. We Americans are too strict on limiting our development of the game, hence the few Americans in the top of the Men's tour.
Possibly in the late '70's, my game was up around some kind of 5.5 levels, but that was a long time ago and far far away.

... thanks for sharing, Lee ... appreciate your comments and thoughts on this thread ... yes, I agree that we certainly need to start thinking (... and coaching) outside the tennis "box" if the U.S. is going to start producing world class players (dominant world class players) again ... but, that's a topic for another time ... and ... another thread!

Davis937
12-26-2009, 11:50 PM
well i learned how to do my kick serve w/ ebh grip and then switched it because my opponents seemed to be able to read it, while returning. but whatever works for you stick w/ that, if your using ebh for all ur serves than that's great!

I know there's been a lot of controvery over this ... and ... God knows there's been tons of discussion on various threads ... but ... don't you think that regardless of what grip we are using ... our opponents know that for our second serves are going to be kickers ... it's not like we are going to fool anyone with our grip ... your thoughts?

lawlitssoo1n
12-27-2009, 12:12 AM
I know there's been a lot of controvery over this ... and ... God knows there's been tons of discussion on various threads ... but ... don't you think that regardless of what grip we are using ... our opponents know that for our second serves are going to be kickers ... it's not like we are going to fool anyone with our grip ... your thoughts?

well depends what your using your kicker for, my 1st serve and 2nd serve are the same, flat w/ the same pace. i change it up by using kick serve as my 1st serve, sometimes slice, twist. so my opponent doesn't get into a rhythm of return my serve, or ill keep serving to my opponents backhand, and then surprise him by serving to the forehand.

my dad is a old school s&v and i learned to serve from him. keep practicing and you'll get better

Davis937
12-27-2009, 12:30 AM
well depends what your using your kicker for, my 1st serve and 2nd serve are the same, flat w/ the same pace. i change it up by using kick serve as my 1st serve, sometimes slice, twist. so my opponent doesn't get into a rhythm of return my serve, or ill keep serving to my opponents backhand, and then surprise him by serving to the forehand.

my dad is a old school s&v and i learned to serve from him. keep practicing and you'll get better

... well, it's obvious that your serving "arsenal" is a lot more sophisticated than mine ... my first serve is generally a topspin/slice and I just try to vary placement ... my second serve is predictable ... always a kicker, but try to move it around ... it's a never ending journey for me ... continuously working on improving my serves ... but ... that's the challenge for all of us!

lawlitssoo1n
12-27-2009, 04:02 PM
... well, it's obvious that your serving "arsenal" is a lot more sophisticated than mine ... my first serve is generally a topspin/slice and I just try to vary placement ... my second serve is predictable ... always a kicker, but try to move it around ... it's a never ending journey for me ... continuously working on improving my serves ... but ... that's the challenge for all of us!

when i was about 13 (using ncode 70lbs strung w/ prince topspin 16G) i used to just serve it as hard as i can into the box w/o really placing, and seemd to work really well against other players my age, and sort of grew up on that, untill i was 16, where it wasn't as affective and started to see more double faults; therefore, losing tennis matches(tournaments are a lot $$ and they add up). my dad told me he's going to break all my rackets and make me quit tennis, unless i practice my serve everyday 5 buckets of tennis balls AT LEAST, so i've done that for about 8 months, and from there on it my serve sort of just peaked from there.

i was out for 2 months because of wrist injuries and started playing again and my serves are gone :(

Davis937
12-27-2009, 04:50 PM
when i was about 13 (using ncode 70lbs strung w/ prince topspin 16G) i used to just serve it as hard as i can into the box w/o really placing, and seemd to work really well against other players my age, and sort of grew up on that, untill i was 16, where it wasn't as affective and started to see more double faults; therefore, losing tennis matches(tournaments are a lot $$ and they add up). my dad told me he's going to break all my rackets and make me quit tennis, unless i practice my serve everyday 5 buckets of tennis balls AT LEAST, so i've done that for about 8 months, and from there on it my serve sort of just peaked from there.

i was out for 2 months because of wrist injuries and started playing again and my serves are gone :(

... yeah, for us tennis players trying to "find" and keep our serve is like searching for that elusive "Holy Grail" ... it's a difficult journey filled with many false leads and dead end paths ... hope your injury has healed, and I'm sure you'll get your serve back ... give it time!