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View Full Version : Hiting second serve.. how much you go for ?


NineEleven
12-20-2009, 11:05 AM
I was wondering say you hit your first serve at 100% effort.

HOw much do we go for second?

sometimes i think i double fault as a result of hiting giving it too much.

Jaewonnie
12-20-2009, 11:09 AM
If you hit you're first serve at 100%, then you hit your second serve at 110%.

ximian
12-20-2009, 11:09 AM
First off, a first serve should only very rarely be at 100%. Pick your spots, that's a much better strategy than going all out.

For the second serve, you want to get your game to a point where it's not a question of "effort" but of racket speed. For the second serve, focus more on racket head speed and brushing up on the ball.

Mick
12-20-2009, 11:12 AM
i would just put it in to the spot where the returner could not do much damage (his weak side)

Ripper014
12-20-2009, 11:38 AM
I agree... serving for me is more about mixing pace, spin and placement... but I always hit my second serve somewhere between 80-90%. If I feel like I am going to choke on my second serve... (seldom but it does happen), I will make sure to hit my second serve at 90-95% with heavy spin. I seldom double... unless I am trying to play the ball too tight to a line.

LuckyR
12-20-2009, 11:52 AM
It sounds like folks are using percentages to comment on pace not necessarily on "going for it" since a lot of that would be shot placement.

LeeD
12-20-2009, 01:58 PM
First serve, 80% physical effort, 100% mental on the placement and it's effect.
Second serve, 95% physical effort, but maybe 50% on it's ability to force a weak return. Always placement and the returner's shots in mind.

jazzyfunkybluesy
12-20-2009, 02:09 PM
Take a little off so you can get it in and so they don't blast it ala Murrays 80 mph second serve. Ha.

ttbrowne
12-20-2009, 02:23 PM
If I hit 100%..it's in the net. I have to hit it 120% for the kick to go in.

samster
12-20-2009, 05:01 PM
If you hit you're first serve at 100%, then you hit your second serve at 110%.

Go Yonex!!! 110%

Fedace
12-20-2009, 05:10 PM
Go Yonex!!! 110%

What does Yonex have to do with this ?
I say if you hit your 1st serve at 100%, swing just like the 1st, maybe at about 90% but use the extreme eastern backhand grip to get more spin and go for the Kick to the backhand side with the 2nd serve. and on the duece court, i will occasionally go for the 2nd serve slice for surprise purposes. If you put extrmeme slice on it, you can get some cheap points....:)

SourStraws
12-20-2009, 05:35 PM
What does Yonex have to do with this ?


The slogan for Yonex is '110%'

S.S.

z_z
12-20-2009, 06:09 PM
Well, if you're double faulting 2 much, work on getting your topsin 2nd serve in consistently then aim for placement. My opinion is how much "effort" you put into it doesn't matter if you can't serve consistently.

Beyond that, here are some options to consider for your 2nd serve based on "effort":

1. Just wanna get your serve in: play a 80% topspin serve into the safe area (away fr the lines)

2. Placement serves to att opponent's weak sides: 80-100% topspin / kickers aiming for the sides.

3. Be Pete Sampras: hit 120% down the line.

BobFL
12-20-2009, 06:17 PM
I swing like crazy on my 2nd serve. Well, I am going to lose the point anyway if I push/dink the ball.
I swing a lot faster on my 2nd serve because I do not go through the ball but across the ball. OK, if my 1st serve is 100% then my 2nd serve would be ~130% racquet head speed wise...

Cindysphinx
12-20-2009, 07:42 PM
One of my goals for 2010 is to never, ever hit a second serve into the net.

No excuse for that. . . .

Fedace
12-20-2009, 07:44 PM
One of my goals for 2010 is to never, ever hit a second serve into the net.

No excuse for that. . . .

I think you should also add more wrist snap for more power...

HunterST
12-20-2009, 07:51 PM
One of my goals for 2010 is to never, ever hit a second serve into the net.

No excuse for that. . . .

That's a good goal, I might adopt that. Most of the time if I miss a second serve it's from hitting it into the net.

Cindysphinx
12-20-2009, 07:57 PM
That's a good goal, I might adopt that. Most of the time if I miss a second serve it's from hitting it into the net.

Yeah, which is lame.

If I hit it into the net, it was going to be a crummy second serve anyway had it gone in.

Besides, if it goes into the net, then I can't come onto this board later and claim my serve was in but my scoundrel of an opponent hooked me! :)

USERNAME
12-20-2009, 08:46 PM
100% on every serve (1st or 2nd.) The only thing that should change is the way you hit the ball, ie more slice, kick, and top spin type serves. Watch any good future level player, the speed of their racquet rarely slows down when going from a 1st to 2nd serve but the motion changes a little so they can add more spins, that is what gives the shot more clearance, less speed, and more safety.

nfor304
12-20-2009, 10:32 PM
I would have to say that my second serve takes much more effort than my first. It really takes it out of me when I try and hit alot of kick serves.

NineEleven
12-20-2009, 10:58 PM
I think you should also add more wrist snap for more power...

regarding the wrist snap, for 2nd serve its more of a side snap right? i find somethimes i tend to do the forward snap i do on the flat serve which explains my balls going long.

Maybe i should try a more extreme grip for second serve for added spin.

Do you guys adopt different grip for flat and kick serve?


i also wonder if bending the wrist helps before hiting the ball although i adopt a neutral wrist

I noticed Edberg Kick serve as he execute he prepares with a bent wrist ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_9UhDhR1cc

fuzz nation
12-21-2009, 05:04 AM
One of my goals for 2010 is to never, ever hit a second serve into the net.

No excuse for that. . . .

If that's your goal Cindy, you're probably doomed to finding the net. Even though you goal is to "not serve into the net", serving into the net is exactly what you're focusing on. At least in the way you wrote it.

Concentrate on what you want to do, not on what you don't want to do. Get it? I'd say your goal ought to be to land every single 2nd serve without exception. Just don't kill yourself when you miss one... we're human.

fuzz nation
12-21-2009, 05:27 AM
100% on every serve (1st or 2nd.) The only thing that should change is the way you hit the ball, ie more slice, kick, and top spin type serves. Watch any good future level player, the speed of their racquet rarely slows down when going from a 1st to 2nd serve but the motion changes a little so they can add more spins, that is what gives the shot more clearance, less speed, and more safety.

I agree.

It may not be necessary to worry about "going for it 100%" though. Instead, use a full service motion for every serve. You're looking for either linear contact to make pace or more angular contact to make spin, but if you paddy-cake that second serve, you'll get neither.

You may find that it's smart to only go for a tighter margin with the first ball where you hit closer to a line, but then use just about the same serve to drop your second ball more in the middle of the box if you miss. Hopefully as you get better, you can go for almost 0% with you 2nd serve as more of your first balls go in!

LeeD
12-21-2009, 07:53 AM
I think it inhibits your progress if you set goals like ''none into the net"...
Think about your second serve. You are going to your opponent's weakness. You are hitting it wider than their comfort zone. Sometimes, you aim your second serve to land wider than the intersect, less than 6" inside the sideline. You WILL miss some!
Sure, if you push your second serve up the middle of the court, short but high arc, you can hit 100% out of 100. But that is not progression, that is playing safe and staying the same level !

charliefedererer
12-21-2009, 09:13 AM
Take a full cut at the ball on your second serve, but the the location of the toss, the more full shoulder turn, and the upward angle of your swing motion will all be different than your first, flat serve.
Check out these videos from "the serve doctor" at the Bolletieri Acadamy and Will Hamilton from Fuzzy Yellow Balls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88&feature=related
http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/kick-serve/introduction/

And you are serving "up the mountain" on both your first and second serves, but is is especially critical on your second serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs&feature=related

LeeD
12-21-2009, 09:35 AM
9-11...
Bending the wrist does indeed help you slice the ball more, but you should really incorporate it into the topspin/slice serve, which is a combination of both, not one or the other.
Try to use the same grip for all serves. Why? Because you can lessen one more thing which increases error chances. Grip changes cannot always be accurate, and when you S/V, especially off your slower second serve, you need an EXACT, replicable grip.
Most players employ full pronation on the first flat serves.
But on second serves, some just lead with the edge of the racket for more rackethead speed, on their top/slice second serves. You can pronate some, but you have to limit it somewhat to get consistent slice or spin.
For twist serves, you can pronate some also, but some choose instead to just slice upwards at the ball leading with the edge of the racket, never fully exposing the face to the ball.

NineEleven
12-23-2009, 03:09 AM
guys great feedback.. thank U!

anyone can explain the rational how a 'cocking' helps generate more spin.. it works for me but i cant explain it....

Pro Staff Pete
12-23-2009, 03:18 AM
in singles I just go for a kick serve, preferably to the opponent's backhand and in doubles I hit my first serve @ 80% to - hopefully - don't have to hit a 2nd serve

LeeD
12-23-2009, 07:13 AM
"cocking" doesn't generate MORE spin, it insures you don't pronate into a flat long serve. If you want to generate more spin, swing faster and use the body and legs to uncoil with forward movement, besides the fast swing.
As for choice of serves.... If you win points on your first flat, why not?
If you get your first flat serve constantly returned, better to spin it in high to the weaker side.

Ripper014
12-23-2009, 01:21 PM
"cocking" doesn't generate MORE spin, it insures you don't pronate into a flat long serve. If you want to generate more spin, swing faster and use the body and legs to uncoil with forward movement, besides the fast swing.
As for choice of serves.... If you win points on your first flat, why not?
If you get your first flat serve constantly returned, better to spin it in high to the weaker side.

If you want to hit more spin you need to have the racket head moving faster... to do that you need to snap your wrist at contact. You get the racket moving faster with a wrist snap than moving your arm through the ball...

xFullCourtTenniSx
12-23-2009, 02:13 PM
To all who say snap the wrist on the serve - you fail. Get a larger grip size and start hitting some real serves.

Second serve, I actually swing about the same speeds on a first and second serve. The difference is the amount of arc over the net I intend to give it. The first serve I will try to arc high over the net with a first serve toss (1 o'clock and a foot or two inside the court). The second serve I use a second serve toss (around 11:30 or 12 o'clock and a foot inside the court) and try to arc it even higher than a first serve.

Oddly, I've actually moved my serves farther to the right than normal as of late. My second serves used to be at 11 o'clock and my first serves used to be at 12 or 12:30. Though now I'm more able to hit slice serves down the T on second serves. I noticed Federer do the same and thought I'd try it out. Not too great on wide kickers on the ad court (maybe just cause I'm not used to it yet), but it's excellent on slices down the T. My serves don't kick back to the returner and now slide away from him with more kick than my average kick serves! Haha. Worth it, but I might occasionally go back to my old toss for those wide kickers.

LeeD
12-23-2009, 02:58 PM
I don't ever snap my wrists either. Instead, I allow natural pronation for the first flat serves, and I allow my loosely held racket to "chop" forwards for a topspin second serve.
I swing about 85% possible swing speed for my first flat serves.
For my second serves, I swing closer to 100%, as fast as I can, to impart more spin to a much slower moving ball. Seems thos, a more effective second serve for me would be to slow down my second serve swing to 90%, and allow the spin to take it most violent action, instead of overpowering my spin effect with too much swingspeed.
First serves maybe 105.
Second serves closer to 70.

GuyClinch
12-23-2009, 04:41 PM
I don't know how this devolved into the old 'wrist snap' controversy.

I feel I can absolutely increase my pronation on serves - there are drills you can do where you can practice spiking the ball right in front of you and then over then net. The way to do this is increasing the pronation..

I know the feeling among some is that 'pronation" is natural. It isn't. You cant worry about timing it but you can increase or decrease the amount, IMHO. Its about using two different "power sources" one is the forward swing of the arm - and the other is in fact the pronation. Both of these factors can be dialed up or down. I don't care what anyone says about "automatic" pronation. A good exampe is an overhead. You can hit that with just pronation and very little arm swing speed if your close to the net.


As for second serves - I think you can kind of feel that you swing as hard but for me the first serve toss is WAY more onto the court so it feels alot different and you feel you can get your whole body into it..

With the second serve I kind of try to prevent my shoulders from turning around too fast so you don't really feel that power like you do in a first serve..

I personally am totally okay with the occasional net ball. Usually for me it means my toss was too low. However I find its far more important to strive for good pace and spin then too worry about a few double faults. Your not going to get wicked second serve action unless you either practice a ton or try to hit hard in games.. Its the same for forehands and backhands. If you content yourself with dinking in games to be 'consistent' your going to dink forever.

Pete

darthpwner
12-23-2009, 04:59 PM
I swing faster for my 2nd serve, but I direct the power upwards. I try to arch my back so I could really get nasty kick on my 2nd delivery.

LeeD
12-23-2009, 05:03 PM
Seems lots of old farts I play against can handle the chin height service ball easier than thigh high skidders, so I've adopted the old slice as an alternative lately.
This just means when I go for the twists, it lands short and low, so they pound it anyways...:oops::oops:
Maybe sometimes, with too many weapons, I can't do any of them very well. But I can do all of them nice and poorly...:shock:

GuyClinch
12-23-2009, 10:27 PM
^^^ Its not a weapon if you can't do it well. <g>

jmjmkim
12-23-2009, 11:24 PM
2nd serve is Top Spin serve at 100%.

But you don't necessarily aim at the "T" or the side lines, but in the general direction.

At lease for me.....

Davis937
12-26-2009, 12:02 PM
I would have to say that my second serve takes much more effort than my first. It really takes it out of me when I try and hit alot of kick serves.

yeah, I agree with nfor ... I generally hit my first serve at 90 percent effort (...the only time I'll go 100 percent or higher would be on crucial points when I want to make a statement ... and I need the point) ... on the kicker, I always go 100 percent ... and, yes, it is taxing if I have to hit a lot of second serves ... I find if I ease up on my kicker, it will go long (rarely net it) ... I need to swing hard to get the required spin to bring the ball in the service box.

Slazenger07
12-28-2009, 01:50 PM
What does Yonex have to do with this ?
I say if you hit your 1st serve at 100%, swing just like the 1st, maybe at about 90% but use the extreme eastern backhand grip to get more spin and go for the Kick to the backhand side with the 2nd serve. and on the duece court, i will occasionally go for the 2nd serve slice for surprise purposes. If you put extrmeme slice on it, you can get some cheap points....:)

That's Yonex's advertised saying (110%)

But yea you need to try and learn a spin serve of some type, Id say topspin, and you have to swing as fast or faster than you would on your first serve, just let the spin do the work, dont go for too much pace, though you definitely need some pace on it to make it at higher levels.

I personally like to use my flat and slice serves as my 1st serves and save my kick serve for the 2nd.