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View Full Version : Responding to a high deep ball


julian
12-22-2009, 07:48 AM
see www.uspta.org click a tip of a week

86golf
12-22-2009, 08:00 AM
see www.uspta.org click a tip of a week

Sorry, I can't take lessons from anyone named Otis. I'll drink some whiskey with him though.
Seriously though, one issue I see with this is that most players should be coming to net after they hit a high deep shot into the backhand corner. Right?

julian
12-22-2009, 08:05 AM
Sorry, I can't take lessons from anyone named Otis. I'll drink some whiskey with him though.
Seriously though, one issue I see with this is that most players should be coming to net after they hit a high deep shot into the backhand corner. Right?
No
julian

larry10s
12-22-2009, 08:55 AM
Sorry, I can't take lessons from anyone named Otis. I'll drink some whiskey with him though.
Seriously though, one issue I see with this is that most players should be coming to net after they hit a high deep shot into the backhand corner. Right?

if i hit a high deep ball and especially if the player backs up im DEFINITELY moving into the court but maybe not all the way to the net until i can gauge where his return shot is going. i will try to take it out of the air

Ripper014
12-22-2009, 09:00 AM
Ya no... if someone hits this shot to me... I will either take it out of the air... or step in and hit it with slice on the rise and consider coming in behind it. If it is high enough I would even consider stepping around it and hitting an overhead.

LeeD
12-22-2009, 09:01 AM
Seems lots of baseliner grinders would rather hit that deep high shot to our backhands and stay planted right there at the nice safe baseline so they can hit their topspin groundies over and over again, choosing to lengthen the point rather than shorten the point.

Ripper014
12-22-2009, 09:02 AM
if i hit a high deep ball and especially if the player backs up im DEFINITELY moving into the court but maybe not all the way to the net until i can gauge where his return shot is going. i will try to take it out of the air

Anytime I anticipate a weak return from my opponent I will step into the court looking for the opportunity to move to the net to close out the point.

larry10s
12-22-2009, 09:21 AM
Anytime I anticipate a weak return from my opponent I will step into the court looking for the opportunity to move to the net to close out the point.

we are on the same page. agree. i was just differentiating to golfs comment he would go straigtht to net. to the op the high deep ball i try take on the rise , slice it (as im improving on this one i like it) or take it out of the air as mentioned in a post above

Mick
12-22-2009, 09:29 AM
if it isn't high enough for me to hit an overhead, i would return it back the same way it came to me: high and deep :)

86golf
12-22-2009, 09:37 AM
we are on the same page. agree. i was just differentiating to golfs comment he would go straigtht to net. to the op the high deep ball i try take on the rise , slice it (as im improving on this one i like it) or take it out of the air as mentioned in a post above

Sorry, my point was that the instructor was making an assumption that he would stay back after hitting a high deep ball to the girl. I don't think that is a good assumption. And I should have said, I would move in to volley or hit an overhead. A high return (from the girl) is likely going to be an easy overhead if you can get to the service line behind your high deep loop into the corner.

larry10s
12-22-2009, 09:48 AM
Sorry, my point was that the instructor was making an assumption that he would stay back after hitting a high deep ball to the girl. I don't think that is a good assumption. And I should have said, I would move in to volley or hit an overhead. A high return (from the girl) is likely going to be an easy overhead if you can get to the service line behind your high deep loop into the corner.

see LeeD post .yes alot of baseliners would just stay at the baseline. those of us that want to open the door when opportunity knocks will look to come in and end it.

larry10s
12-22-2009, 09:49 AM
but to stay on topic what do you do when you are the one confronting the high deep ball???( julian im trying to stay on point)

LeeD
12-22-2009, 09:53 AM
Funny thing there....
I've practiced with lots of B,A-Open women in the past.
NOT ONE of them ever had problems with high loopy balls to the backhand side. Most of them hated low skidders to their backhands.
High balls, they'd just rotate their shoulders more, high prep, closed stance, and whipped thru the ball with a hard twisting action to hit it harder and faster than their normal shots, low to the net and normally CC.
Even the one handers had no problems with high balls to their backhands.

larry10s
12-22-2009, 10:09 AM
Funny thing there....

Even the one handers had no problems with high balls to their backhands.

???isnt a high ball to a one handed bh considered among the negatives for one handed bh.?????? maybe the ball they were receiving might have been high but not "heavy"?

LeeD
12-22-2009, 10:39 AM
MarcieLouie was one of my practice partners. She won the CanadianOpen around '77 or so.
When I looped a high ball to her backhand, she'd just SW backhand grip it and sliced it hard CC low to my forehand (me lefty) and made me dig it out from under my ankles. Couple those, and I learned not to loop it high to her backhand anymore.
No, we didn't hit as spinny as you all do nowadaze, but I had a strong Aussie/conti forehand with lots of angle and spin.

EP1998
12-22-2009, 10:39 AM
In my experience women can handle the high ball to the backhand quite well. It is a very common strategy. I have been doing it my whole life. There is just no way one deep ball back is going to immediately produce a short ball, though I dont disagree with Otis (who is a great coach and also still plays, which is a plus) on the general counter pattern. It is just going to take more than one, assuming players are at a comparable level. If you have two grinders a forty ball rally is not out of the question. A lot of spin is needed too so you can push them up on the fence. Ideally someone can do this and then sneak in, those are usually the players that go farther in the tournaments.

LeeD
12-22-2009, 10:42 AM
Exactly !!
Even the 4.5 women who play around here are very adept at handling the high bouncing topspinny balls to their backhands. They just had more practice, and better coaching.
All use closed stances, forward body lean, high prep, and relatively flatter shots.

Larrysümmers
12-22-2009, 10:48 AM
when i get a shot hit like that i just run around to my forhand or slice at it. it didnt look like a hard shot and it even landed inside the service box i guess that could just be me though.

Mick
12-22-2009, 11:01 AM
it's not that easy to attack a high deep ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfrUVH6MBwk

FuriousYellow
12-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Disappointing. I thought we were going to learn how to hit the behind the back drop shot.:)

Power Player
12-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Seems lots of baseliner grinders would rather hit that deep high shot to our backhands and stay planted right there at the nice safe baseline so they can hit their topspin groundies over and over again, choosing to lengthen the point rather than shorten the point.

You are right, and I personally force myself to rush net when I come behind a big shot. It pressures the returner to make a quick decision and many times hit an UE before I am forced to unleash an awkward looking volley. :|

julian
12-22-2009, 12:16 PM
but to stay on topic what do you do when you are the one confronting the high deep ball???( julian im trying to stay on point)
Thank you Larry

LeeD
12-22-2009, 01:02 PM
OP, you never told us whether you hit 1hbh or 2, whether you can handle high balls or just watch them go by, what level you play, whether you can play the net after a decent approach, whether you can approach or not.....
Me, high deep ball, I'd choose to slice it DTL and approach net position just inside the service line.
YOU, you can hit flat CC or short angle slice or top, flat or something in between. You can hit DTL, you can moonball it back, you can hit it into the bottom of the net or out.
We need to more about your game before we can decide what you should do.

Cindysphinx
12-22-2009, 01:35 PM
In my experience women can handle the high ball to the backhand quite well. It is a very common strategy. I have been doing it my whole life. There is just no way one deep ball back is going to immediately produce a short ball, though I dont disagree with Otis (who is a great coach and also still plays, which is a plus) on the general counter pattern. It is just going to take more than one, assuming players are at a comparable level. If you have two grinders a forty ball rally is not out of the question. A lot of spin is needed too so you can push them up on the fence. Ideally someone can do this and then sneak in, those are usually the players that go farther in the tournaments.

I think Bridget is at a higher level than I am.

I say this because I love love love love hitting a topspin moonball to the BH of an opponent. The women I play with have a horrible time with that ball, because they are forced to run *and* they have a BH ball out of their strike zone. Darn skippy I follow it in, as they are in no position to hit a passing shot and the whole court is open for a volley.

My pro teaches something different from Otis when someone plays that shot to me, however. He says my preference ought to be to drive that ball provided I can get it into my strike zone. That means get out of the path of the ball, and then back up as much as you need to in order to get the ball in the strike zone. Give yourself room to hit, step into the shot, and let your forward momentum carry you forward for recovery. Only if you are backed up to the fence do you just loop the ball back.

I have to admit, it works. I often have more room in the backcourt than I think I do (if I think I might be out of real estate, I will actually see if I can touch the fence with my backswing -- if not, I have more room to back up). And if someone comes in, it is possible to drive the ball so they have to take the volley below net level -- provided I got the ball into my strike zone.

I'd like to start taking these moonballs as swinging volleys, but that's a work in progress.

EP1998
12-22-2009, 03:36 PM
I think Bridget is at a higher level than I am.

I say this because I love love love love hitting a topspin moonball to the BH of an opponent. The women I play with have a horrible time with that ball, because they are forced to run *and* they have a BH ball out of their strike zone. Darn skippy I follow it in, as they are in no position to hit a passing shot and the whole court is open for a volley.

My pro teaches something different from Otis when someone plays that shot to me, however. He says my preference ought to be to drive that ball provided I can get it into my strike zone. That means get out of the path of the ball, and then back up as much as you need to in order to get the ball in the strike zone. Give yourself room to hit, step into the shot, and let your forward momentum carry you forward for recovery. Only if you are backed up to the fence do you just loop the ball back.

I have to admit, it works. I often have more room in the backcourt than I think I do (if I think I might be out of real estate, I will actually see if I can touch the fence with my backswing -- if not, I have more room to back up). And if someone comes in, it is possible to drive the ball so they have to take the volley below net level -- provided I got the ball into my strike zone.

I'd like to start taking these moonballs as swinging volleys, but that's a work in progress.

You are probably better than the people you are playing.

EP1998
12-22-2009, 03:44 PM
Thank you Larry

If I'm pushed to my max with deep ball to my backhand then most likely I'm going to hit a deep ball back, trying to get as much spin as possible for time and height and use footwork to get back into the court. This is assuming again a quality ball, not a deep floater that challenges with court position but not time or trajectory.

The tough part about this is that the footwork on the backhand is harder on the run than the forehand. I like Serena Williams in this situation and how she uses her knee to chest on the backhand side to get back into position.

LeeD
12-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Me, given a deep high ball to mainly my backhand, I'd already consider the opponent's volley percentages and ability, my heartbeat and tolerance for longer points, and usually hit a short angle hard slice CC short and wide.
Makes the good baseliner have to move forward and dig a sidespinning slice, allows me to end the point with a preplanned lob over the backhand side or a pass either side.
Ending the point makes tennis fun for me.
Prolonging the point just makes it feel like work....no fun.

tennis005
12-22-2009, 03:56 PM
Usually, if I'm in the right spot, I would hit a slice shot on the rise. Works great on my backhand side and gets the job done on forehand. If it is high enough, I'll try for an overhead from the baseline.

larry10s
12-23-2009, 04:51 AM
Me, given a deep high ball to mainly my backhand, I'd already consider the opponent's volley percentages and ability, my heartbeat and tolerance for longer points, and usually hit a short angle hard slice CC short and wide.
Makes the good baseliner have to move forward and dig a sidespinning slice, allows me to end the point with a preplanned lob over the backhand side or a pass either side.
Ending the point makes tennis fun for me.
Prolonging the point just makes it feel like work....no fun.

is there a type of ball that forces you to play neutral?

Mahboob Khan
12-23-2009, 06:17 AM
The question was when someone pinned you deep on your BH side with high and deep ball, what you can do?

Well, the answer is hit a sabatweeni! (LOL).

Seriously, in this situation back up and hit a high topspin roler back deep cross court to neutralize the situation and start the rally again. You may even get a short ball if your return ball is quite deep and high bouncing, in this case you can step in and put it away for a winner.

canuckfan
12-23-2009, 06:22 AM
If the opponent comes to net, you can take it on the rise and hit to his feet, then prepare to eat him alive as he is forced to volley up.

larry10s
12-23-2009, 06:52 AM
I think Bridget is at a higher level than I am.

I say this because I love love love love hitting a topspin moonball to the BH of an opponent. The women I play with have a horrible time with that ball, because they are forced to run *and* they have a BH ball out of their strike zone. Darn skippy I follow it in, as they are in no position to hit a passing shot and the whole court is open for a volley.

My pro teaches something different from Otis when someone plays that shot to me, however. He says my preference ought to be to drive that ball provided I can get it into my strike zone. That means get out of the path of the ball, and then back up as much as you need to in order to get the ball in the strike zone. Give yourself room to hit, step into the shot, and let your forward momentum carry you forward for recovery. Only if you are backed up to the fence do you just loop the ball back.

I have to admit, it works. I often have more room in the backcourt than I think I do (if I think I might be out of real estate, I will actually see if I can touch the fence with my backswing -- if not, I have more room to back up). And if someone comes in, it is possible to drive the ball so they have to take the volley below net level -- provided I got the ball into my strike zone.

I'd like to start taking these moonballs as swinging volleys, but that's a work in progress.

at your level you could probably regular volley thode balls deep to stay alive or volley short and make them scramble. you will have more control on the volley (you can take the ball at a comfortable height to volley where be definition the high backhand is not in the optimum striking zone.

Cindysphinx
12-23-2009, 07:03 AM
^True. We've been practicing S&V lately, and being able to cross and take those balls as a high BH volley is much easier than letting it bounce.

If the ball does bounce -- say in singles when you just didn't get there fast enough for a volley, then I think backing up to get the ball in the strike zone is the next best option.

Ideally, I could hit a BH on the rise, but that usually results in a much weaker shot. The advantage, I guess, would be that taking the ball quickly doesn't give your opponent time to come in.

LeeD
12-23-2009, 08:03 AM
Most players would choose to hit a neutral ball, one back deep and safely into the "middle" of the court.
Good choice if you have the energy, patience, and inclination to prolong the point.
Usually, by the time my opponent starts hitting high, deep and hard topspins to my backhand, the ball has already travelled over the net a few times. A few times too many, according to my thinking.
My thinking....what would McEnroe do? He'd step in, take it early on the rise but flat, guide it down the line, and approach net. I don't own that shot, so CC with slice, hard and low.
Remember, I don't regularly play against players who can tune in on my patterns or handle a running forward low ball skidding away from them...very well. And, I've preplanned my next shot, not for a winner, but to make THEM run some.....:shock:

Ripper014
12-23-2009, 02:43 PM
^True. We've been practicing S&V lately, and being able to cross and take those balls as a high BH volley is much easier than letting it bounce.

If the ball does bounce -- say in singles when you just didn't get there fast enough for a volley, then I think backing up to get the ball in the strike zone is the next best option.

Ideally, I could hit a BH on the rise, but that usually results in a much weaker shot. The advantage, I guess, would be that taking the ball quickly doesn't give your opponent time to come in.



I am already stepping into the court anticipating a weak return, and if I see you back pedalling I will be coming forward cutting off your return and placing it into the other corner. Doing this does not give you much time to recover... and I should be able to end the point in the next shot (whether I hit an easy winner or make an error).

Cindysphinx
12-23-2009, 02:52 PM
I am already stepping into the court anticipating a weak return, and if I see you back pedalling I will be coming forward cutting off your return and placing it into the other corner. Doing this does not give you much time to recover... and I should be able to end the point in the next shot (whether I hit an easy winner or make an error).

Sure. All true.

My options other than backing up are also not wonderful. If I take the ball off the bounce as a half-volley, I will cough up something short and weak. If I take it as a swinging volley while reaching or otherwise out of position, I will miss.

I will try to take these balls on the rise sometimes, but a lot of that depends on whether my opponent will or will not follow a strong shot to net. Many won't. For those opponents, I will back up deep and hit hard from there. I guess I am saying that, for me, a hard drive from the strike zone from far behind the baseline is a stronger shot than a half-volley or trying to hit aggressively off the rise.

Ripper014
12-23-2009, 02:59 PM
Sure. All true.

My options other than backing up are also not wonderful. If I take the ball off the bounce as a half-volley, I will cough up something short and weak. If I take it as a swinging volley while reaching or otherwise out of position, I will miss.

I will try to take these balls on the rise sometimes, but a lot of that depends on whether my opponent will or will not follow a strong shot to net. Many won't. For those opponents, I will back up deep and hit hard from there. I guess I am saying that, for me, a hard drive from the strike zone from far behind the baseline is a stronger shot than a half-volley or trying to hit aggressively off the rise.


At your level I would suggest a high deep lob into the opponents backhand corner, this gives you time to get back into position and pushes the opponent off the net.

LeeD
12-23-2009, 04:03 PM
A softly hit shot from inside the baseline is quite often harder to return than a power shot from 6' behind the baseline. Time, spin, odd ball, are the factors, plus pressure on the opponent from you just standing comfortably right atop the baseline.
Agassi, Courier, and McEnroes were masters at intimidation.

kingdaddy41788
12-23-2009, 04:07 PM
I've definitely played Otis in doubles... (I lost)

EP1998
12-24-2009, 05:12 AM
Sure. All true.

My options other than backing up are also not wonderful. If I take the ball off the bounce as a half-volley, I will cough up something short and weak. If I take it as a swinging volley while reaching or otherwise out of position, I will miss.

I will try to take these balls on the rise sometimes, but a lot of that depends on whether my opponent will or will not follow a strong shot to net. Many won't. For those opponents, I will back up deep and hit hard from there. I guess I am saying that, for me, a hard drive from the strike zone from far behind the baseline is a stronger shot than a half-volley or trying to hit aggressively off the rise.

This isn't a good long term plan. You have to learn how to defend successfully when your opponent can really hurt you. These kinds of options, taking early,hitting slice, swinging volleys all available to advanced players who are seasoned, have better preparation, anticipation and footwork, but even then, not always highest percentages.

EP1998
12-24-2009, 05:18 AM
A softly hit shot from inside the baseline is quite often harder to return than a power shot from 6' behind the baseline. Time, spin, odd ball, are the factors, plus pressure on the opponent from you just standing comfortably right atop the baseline.
Agassi, Courier, and McEnroes were masters at intimidation.

I agree with this if the player can do it. especially if opponent is basically a pusher hitting balls back deep without much spin and needs time from you to set up. but its all a big if. you are more experienced that a lot of ppl posting here.