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View Full Version : Why the sudden craze for macs lately?


flyinghippos101
01-03-2010, 06:59 PM
I just dont understand why Macs have been so hyped lately. It just seems to me now that Macs are more or less just shiny toys people have to simply flaunt the fact that they can afford one. I don't see how one can justify $1100 for the entry level macs that have mediocre at best techinical specs while you can get good if not, great laptops at that price. These macs have last generation core 2 duo processors running at 2 ghz, while laptops at that same price have i7s and if you're lucky, have video cards like hd 4670s in them.

Do people really buy macs because of performace, or because it's just a stutus symbol and pretty to look at?

Jonny S&V
01-03-2010, 07:05 PM
I just dont understand why Macs have been so hyped lately. It just seems to me now that Macs are more or less just shiny toys people have to simply flaunt the fact that they can afford one. I don't see how one can justify $1100 for the entry level macs that have mediocre at best techinical specs while you can get good if not, great laptops at that price. These macs have last generation core 2 duo processors running at 2 ghz, while laptops at that same price have i7s and if you're lucky, have video cards like hd 4670s in them.

Do people really buy macs because of performace, or because it's just a stutus symbol and pretty to look at?

Typing from a Windows (a cheapo Wal-mart $300 Windows at that), I attempted to upload a video from this computer. It took 30 min. I uploaded a video that was 4x as long on my father's Mac. Took 20 sec. Same internet connection, and the Mac is about 6-7 years old compared to the Window's 7 months... Yeah...

star 5 15
01-03-2010, 07:38 PM
I just bought a macbook for 899 and I have used windows my entire life and there is no way I will ever own a pc again. The software is amazing and is so easy to use. It's not like the entry level macs are bad. They are actually pretty top notch computers. They're worth the money for sure. The ease of use is so amazing too. You never have freezing or anything either like you do on windows computers. So unless you buy one use it and comeback and say this still then you just don't understand what it's like to use macs.

BallzofSkill
01-03-2010, 07:46 PM
i didn't know steve jobs and steve wozniack were ttw members.

Jonny S&V
01-03-2010, 07:49 PM
i didn't know steve jobs and steve wozniack were ttw members.

Ouch... If it helps any, I don't like iPod and have a Zune instead, so yeah...

rudester
01-03-2010, 07:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that anybody who tries a Mac, will never go back to a PC,
What does this thread have to do with Tennis?

Jonny S&V
01-03-2010, 07:54 PM
I'm pretty sure that anybody who tries a Mac, will never go back to a PC,
What does this thread have to do with Tennis?

Doesn't have to do with tennis, its in the "Odds & Ends" sub-section.

35ft6
01-03-2010, 08:00 PM
Do people really buy macs because of performace, or because it's just a stutus symbol and pretty to look at?How often do people see your computer? It's not like expensive shoes or a car.

Macs are about reliability and performance. Find some articles from tech sites or magazines you trust. Lot of people buy Hondas in LA for the same reasons.

fed_the_savior
01-03-2010, 08:05 PM
I'd say because people don't feel intimidated by them. Frankly, if you know what you doing, PCs get more for your money, but there's a place for people that just want easy and friendly. Why people make it either or when it doesn't have to be... but to the above poster, a computer's OS does not have any affect on upload speed. Something else must have been affecting that (perhaps another person on the LAN was torrenting and stopped).

35ft6
01-03-2010, 09:07 PM
I'd say because people don't feel intimidated by them. Frankly, if you know what you doing, PCs get more for your money, This is debatable. I read a study once that said Mac's are less expensive over the long run because of less time and money spent on maintenance and trouble shooting. But the study was for Mac's in a school setting, not sure if the results translate to individual ownership.

All I know is my dad is always having problems with his Windows. A friend's "less expensive" laptop just died on him and it wasn't the first time he's had a Window laptop die. He just bought a Mac by the way. I've owned 4 Macs and I've never had a problem. Seriously.

I think the inexpensiveness of a Windows laptop comes at a price. I just played with a computer a friend bought over the Holidays, a $300 Acer Netbook, and it's junk. The buttons feel weird, it doesn't scroll properly, and the processor isn't underpowered and videos on Hulu stutter even if you try to buffer it.

But I do realize why people shop at Walmart and buy Windows computers. Money is an issue, I get it. For me, I'd rather pay extra for the performance, reliability, superior interface and engineering of Mac. To me, I'm paying for piece of mind. But I realize that's not an option for everybody.

fed_the_savior
01-03-2010, 09:27 PM
This is debatable. For me, I'd rather pay extra for the performance, reliability, superior interface and engineering of Mac. To me, I'm paying for piece of mind. But I realize that's not an option for everybody.

No actually I agree with you mostly, I was speaking of building your own PC or ordering from a reliable custom builder. This is not for everyone.

defrule
01-03-2010, 09:30 PM
My next desktop system will be an iMac for sure.

Sentinel
01-03-2010, 09:33 PM
No viruses among many other reasons already stated.

Or do they call em "virii" in the windows world ? ;-)

onehandbh
01-03-2010, 09:50 PM
I don't think it's a sudden craze. They've always hard a small more core
following for certain professional groups. The ipod just brought them back
on the map.

Macs are in some ways more reliable, but it doesn't mean they're
indestructible. Laptops in general are more likely to die an early death b/c
they run hotter and the hard drives are often moved while they are running
and possibly bumped. My sisters macbook hard drive died twice in the last
couple years. Also, my friend's macpro system drive died twice! Probably just
bad luck. Overall, I think mac OS X is superior to Windows
<take your pick version of OS>.

hard drives are getting dirt cheap now. Just back up everything that's
important to you.

Some people claim that PCs/Windows XP/Vista/etc are better if you are
familiar with computers b/c it's easier to tinker w/and customize. IMO,
it's a pretty weak argument. If my heart was an OS on a server that had
to run 24/7, I'd pick Linux over Mac OS or any flavor of windows.
Linux is open source, way more robust, you have more control on a lower
level functionality w/o being super clunky like any variant of windows,
and it is similar to Unix. Plus it's pretty much FREE!

I currently use a 8-core macpro. Pretty happy with it so far. Reliable
and decently fast for rendering large HD videos and projects taking up
2+ terabytes.

Getting back on subject, unless serious gaming is your number one priority,
I'd get a mac over a PC. Something with a firewire 800 port and a usb port.

soyizgood
01-03-2010, 10:51 PM
Macs are for snobs (i.e. members of the Expensive Players Club here). Mac owners tend to be in the upper middle class, so they don't care about paying more for the limited software and hardware offerings.

Because the Mac OS is hardware-oriented, hardware vendors have to cater to Apple's more rigid guidelines. Whereas Windows is software-driven, so Microsoft has to constantly cater to both the software and hardware developers that do things like cutting corners in the process. There's been talk that Microsoft developers often implement back doors in their patches for testing purposes, but then have to plug those up when hackers figure them out.

The Mac OS 10.6 is at best a minor upgrade to Leopard. It's not even a true 64-bit OS as it by default loads in a 32-bit environment and then kicks in the 64-bit aspect when it has to run a 64-bit app. Apple still can't kill off its stubborn base of G4 and G5 users, hence their having to hybrid their OS. Apple has also in the past changed direction in their development of their OS which delayed software developers releasing MAC versions of their software.

I still think the ipod and iphone are just fads. Popular fads, but nothing that revolutionary. Really good marketing but like every top 40 song, slips as it gets old.

I have a 10 year old Mac G4 as my file server and pseudo primary domain controller. Works fine. Only glitches I had were a power outage that friend the new hard drive (the original 20GB drive still runs) and that one of the firewire ports broke. I keep telling myself I should replace it, but it still does the job.

Kenny022593
01-03-2010, 11:20 PM
Personally, i would take a customized PC over a mac anyday.

edberg505
01-03-2010, 11:45 PM
No actually I agree with you mostly, I was speaking of building your own PC or ordering from a reliable custom builder. This is not for everyone.

Desktops are a different story. I can fix on desktops myself. Should something go wrong with my desktop, I just trouble shoot, find out the problem and I'm online finding a part to fix. Laptops are a whole different ball of wax. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever by another PC laptop. I've had 4 laptops and had problems out of every single one of them. I'd like to think I take pretty good care of my stuff. But man, those PC laptops are just crap. Oh, and please for the love of all that's holy, stay away from HPs!!!!

onehandbh
01-04-2010, 12:36 AM
... duplicate post.

snoopy
01-04-2010, 12:40 AM
I have never used a Mac but many people I know really like them.

Things I've heard that I like:

-customer service is good. If you have a problem just take it into an Apple store and your problem is fixed, often for free. Pc companies usually have bad customer service and there aren't any dell or hp stores that I can bring my pc to.

-macs are optimized for music and video. That's what most people use their pcs for. Macs come with decent photo/video software too. You have to buy good photo/video editing software for pcs (something like sony vegas or photoshop, I don't like freeware such as gimp)

-good reliability


I have some ?s about Macs.

Do you need to buy antivirus/firewall software like Norton, Eset?

Are there any programs that you wish worked on Macs but only work on pcs? For example I like Microsoft OneNote and I'm pretty sure it's pc only.



I think the inexpensiveness of a Windows laptop comes at a price. I just played with a computer a friend bought over the Holidays, a $300 Acer Netbook, and it's junk. The buttons feel weird, it doesn't scroll properly, and the processor isn't underpowered and videos on Hulu stutter even if you try to buffer it.

Those netbooks really aren't meant for watching Hulu quality videos. The main feature of netbooks is their portability.

onehandbh
01-04-2010, 12:50 AM
Macs are for snobs (i.e. members of the Expensive Players Club here). Mac owners tend to be in the upper middle class, so they don't care about paying more for the limited software and hardware offerings.


I think for the average user, all these extra hardware and software offerings
aren't going to make much of a difference and they're probably better
off with a mac. It's less likely they'll muck it up and it'll be more
reliable. Macs also have better firewire 400 & 800 support, which
are both superior to usb 2.0. Can they get more computing power/$ with a
PC. Sure. Will it make a difference? I doubt it.

IMO, macs are more reliable than Windows XP/Vista machines due to the
roots of where they came from. XP came from Windows NT (sort of).
OS X is more unix based. Unix > NT. Would you rather have a
Ford Festiva modded up with a nitrous system to put out 600 horsepower
or a Honda s2000 with only 237 horsepower?


Apple has also in the past changed direction in their development of their OS which delayed software developers releasing MAC versions of their software.


Agreed. Plus Apple took a long time to move to a intel chipset.


I still think the ipod and iphone are just fads. Popular fads, but nothing that revolutionary. Really good marketing but like every top 40 song, slips as it gets old.


The ipod and mp3 players are dead b/c they got killed by cell phones.

I disagree about the iphone being just a fad. I think it really changed
up the cell phone world. (btw, I don't own one) There are a couple
iphone-like phones coming soon from competitors.

scotus
01-04-2010, 01:05 AM
I don't see how one can justify $1100 for the entry level macs that have mediocre at best techinical specs while you can get good if not, great laptops at that price.

It's amazing how cheap computers have become.

I used Mac for years since its debut.

I bought my first Mac (SE) for $1300 and then bought a Mac II Si for $2500.

Compared to that, a $1100 Mac sounds like a deal to me.

Having said this, I should mention that I finally got a PC (after owning 4 Macs) and then never looked back.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 01:46 AM
Macs are for snobs (i.e. members of the Expensive Players Club here).I was a windows user and bought a Mac only because of Final Cut Pro. I was immediately smitten with the OS. Wasn't expecting that and I made the purchase with much anxiety.

If by snob you're implying that people might choose a computer based on worldview and not on performance, I think Windows people might fit that description better. Mac owners seem to love their Macs for performance reasons, whereas many Windows owners seem to hate Macs and their owners for reasons unknown. Because they think they're cool? Or snobs? Or hipsters? Not sure. Subtle difference but I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining this. Mac people generally talk about liking their Mac computer, how easy it is to use, its rock solid reliability both in terms of hardware and software, whereas Windows people spend a lot of time attacking Macs and their owners. Can't recall a time I've read a Mac owner say something about people who buy Windows, calling them a name or attacking their character. They may attack the OS, but not the people who use them. It's interesting.

Windows has been trying to catch up to Mac OS for a while. Notice, I keep saying Mac, not Apple. The looks and construction of the computers is a huge bonus, don't get me wrong, but a Facebook friend was just talking about his Hackintosh (installing Mac OS on non-Apple computer) and I was very very intrigued.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 01:56 AM
Those netbooks really aren't meant for watching Hulu quality videos. The main feature of netbooks is their portability.What's the point of the portability if the functionality isn't there? I could understand if you said "those netbooks aren't for motion graphics" or "multi-track audio recording" (or predicting nuclear blasts and weather patterns... heheheh) but I don't feel like expecting to be able to watch streaming video is unreasonable to ask of any brand new computer on the market today. I thought those netbooks were meant to be a no frills, low cost computer able to do computers are used for 95% of the time, just web browsing, IM'ing, and emailing. Watching web based videos is a huge part of browsing, and I'm sure other content rich sites will confuse the netbook as well. He spent $300 for that. I think he should have spent another 200 or 300 hundred and just got a notebook computer.

Sometimes I spend extra and I have the money to spend, but either way, my motto is "I'm not rich enough to be cheap." I would rather spend extra to get something that won't break. People who buy $300 notebooks and $50 GPS systems and what not, I realize they don't have money, but they are buying something that will almost certainly break or be obsolete in a few months or one year. It's only a short term savings. Or they can spend 600 to 900 bucks on a computer that should be able to handle the next 4 or 5 years of progress (if they're not using professional grade applications).

David_Is_Right
01-04-2010, 02:05 AM
Apple Mac = Fisher Price activity centre for adults.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 05:58 AM
I'll never understand the PC (hardware) = Windows (operating system) equation.

NickC
01-04-2010, 08:22 AM
Macs are a ripoff; and I've been using them since the 6th grade. As a longtime user of PCs as well, I can see why people want to use Mac, but I'm not a fan of their stuff, to be completely honest. I don't game, but their software is just so limited. I use my Mac for screwing around on, as it's plenty fast and that's pretty much it. It doesn't do anything. My laptop, which is a PC, I use for pretty much everything else (music production via Ableton Live 6, Sony ACID Pro, Numark CUE; papers via office 2007; or just gaming when I feel like getting my *** kicked in Starcraft). There's no alternative to a well maintained PC with a good chipset and good cards. Most people are too lazy or dumb to figure out how to run a PC well and how to clean out their system, which boosts performance like no other.

I think the sudden craze for them is partly due to the poor economy, Macs are overpriced (for the price of a Macbook Pro I can build a PC that is literally twice as powerful), and having a Mac (atleast where I live) is somewhat of a status symbol, if you can afford a Mac you're upper class. And nobody wants to be seen as lower class.

I could never understand why someone would want to use one if they're not involved with intensive Audio or Video production, however. There's not much of a difference.

dropshot winner
01-04-2010, 08:36 AM
I can only speak for myself.
As a person that works with pcs/servers all day long (I'm a software developer) the last thing I want to do after a long day of work or during my weekends is wasting time fixing my pc.

That's why I bought a mac around 2.5 years ago.
So far I've not regretted it. Sure Macs are not perfect by any means, but I've had very few problems since I switched to a Mac.
Basically I pretty much stopped doing any kind of administration and a still got no problems.

For me this decrease in technical problems easily justifys the additional charge for a Mac. Time is money, as they say.

jrod
01-04-2010, 08:52 AM
Simple.....Microsoft.

Baazigar
01-04-2010, 09:07 AM
i hate macs. and you're right, it's just a matter of branding: having one means you're hip, and "with it" and sophisticated. i think they're lame. i bought a dell lattitude for $1800. it's all black, matte finish, subtle. macs are the opposite. white/silver, and shiny. so uncool and trendy.

Baazigar
01-04-2010, 09:08 AM
they're like the k-factor of computers.

jazzyfunkybluesy
01-04-2010, 09:17 AM
Mac users are the same kind of people that buy VW cars. They think they are so different. When my desktop machine wears out I just call Dell and get another one for no more than 500 bucks. So eat that Mac and jam all your stupid commercials.

Topaz
01-04-2010, 09:18 AM
I have a Mac, and I'm generally not a person with a lot of money. And I haven't had to spend any of my money (or time) ever getting my computer fixed.

More bang for your buck.

Once you've had Mac, you'll never go back.

Interesting how many of you assign personality traits to people who use a certain computer. There are some ugly, ugly traits demonstrated right here by PC users.

sureshs
01-04-2010, 09:19 AM
To the poster about upload speed: your problem is not due to PC vs Mac. Some other glitch on your PC.

To me, Macs have always been too expensive to be worth it. Personally, I never liked the GUI (never liked how it was never intuitive to maximize or close a window) and never liked the one button mouse. Since most of my computer work at home is limited to the browser, with the occasional file transfer here and there, and my son is fully comfortable with MS Office for his homework, Macs were never a good value choice for me. It always seems so cool to own one when I drop by a Mac store or Best Buy, but then I ask myself: what is it that I will do better with this, and does it matter, and the answer is no.

LiveForever
01-04-2010, 09:36 AM
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~jshersh/MacPC.jpg

Xenakis
01-04-2010, 10:03 AM
My PC must be about 9 years old or something, can't remember exactly what year I put it together (it's a Pentium 4, 2.4gig, 1.5gb of PC2700 RAM, ASUS P4PE board) No PCI-E ports etc, just an AGP for the graphics card.

It's never broken (touch wood, or MDF in this case), and if anything with XP goes wrong with it I just fix it. If I get a new computer at some point I'll have to keep this one as my music software works on it, don't see the need to upgrade right now as I don't play computer games or need high performance or whatever.

I think I'm a fairly typical satisfied PC customer, I know how they work well enough not to be bothered by some of Window's problems.

Macs on the other hand tend to be bought by people who don't know how to maintain their computers or can't be bothered to try, so they end up paying more for them and have to call for help when they go wrong (and they do from time to time, depending on what you use them for and how much software you install etc.)

Seems fair enough. I'll stick with PCs, they might be ugly and utilitarian compared to Macs but I like their cheapness and customisability. If you know what you doing when you build one you get much more for less.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 10:04 AM
I can only speak for myself.
As a person that works with pcs/servers all day long (I'm a software developer) the last thing I want to do after a long day of work or during my weekends is wasting time fixing my pc.

That's why I bought a mac around 2.5 years ago.
That's why I use Debian Stable.

dropshot winner
01-04-2010, 10:17 AM
That's why I use Debian Stable.

A few months before I bought my mac I thought about switching to a linux distro like Ubuntu. But some things are more complicated to set up under Linux, and I really hate working with the shell, that's why I decided against it.

In the meantime I don't want to miss the overall feel of OSX and software like Final Cut.

mtommer
01-04-2010, 10:35 AM
In general,

Gaming and business = Windows
Multimedia = Mac

Within these classifications each does their target better than the other. It's not that either can't do what the other tries to do but when it comes to code that is well written, thereby utilizing the hardware more efficiently and productively, the differences are notable and appreciable by users.

SirGounder
01-04-2010, 10:35 AM
I've been thinking about switching to a Mac for some time now, at least for a laptop. I like to build my own computers, which isn't really an option with Macs. It can be done but ends up being too expensive.

I understand the the benefits of a Mac and might get one for school. The prices are pretty reasonable now when compared to 10 or even 5 years ago.

Don't pay too much attention to the numbers. Yes the Macs may have lower clock speeds and two cores instead of four, less memory for the money etc, but they perform very well. Very few people will ever truly do anything that takes advantage of all four cores. I play some games use Microsoft office and the internet, which my PC is fine for. If I start getting into video editing and graphics rendering, I'll look into a Mac.

So perhaps I will buy a Macbook in the coming year, and the new tablet is supposed to come in at under $1000 which would be killer (other companies such as HP have tablets for less but they are a little glitchy and decent Fujitsus cost >$1500). Or perhaps I'll stick with a Windows laptop. Depends on which is the better deal at the time.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 10:38 AM
A few months before I bought my mac I thought about switching to a Unix distro like Ubuntu. But some things are more complicated to set up under Linux, and I really hate working with the shell, that's why I decided against it.

In the meantime I don't want to miss the overall feel of OSX and software like Final Cut.
Over a year ago I installed Ubuntu 8.10 on my mother's PC - it took 20 minutes to set up (and I haven't touched it since). Sure, if you depend on Final Cut or other commercial software not available for Linux a Linux distro (Linux is Unix-like, not Unix - please excuse the nitpicking) is not be the right OS for you.
Personally, I don't want to miss the huge amount of quality FOSS available and the idea behind Free Open Source Software. The feel of the desktops like Gnome, KDE and xfce is very good, too (compiz desktop effects are neat but I don't use them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0B8yNvaSxQ ).

To each their own.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 10:51 AM
Multimedia = Mac
Why?

1010char

ClubHoUno
01-04-2010, 11:20 AM
It's not fair to compare a cheap pc laptop to a more expensive Macbook, even the cheapest macbook is twice as expensive as the cheap windows netbooks, I hear some compare the Macbook with.

If you want to do a fair comparison, then at least look at a pc in the same price range as the Macbook.

Windows 7 is in my view the best OS from Microsoft yet, and It's true 64 bit. You can't say the same about Mac Os X yet. I still think Windows is doing a lot of 'catching up' from the Mac OSx, but to be fair if you know what you do even Vista OS was a nice OS.

I build my own PC twice a year - I buy an expensive case, good quality Powersupply, 2 iNTEL SSD HARDDRIVES, 4 TB NORMAL INTERNAL WD DRIVES, nice INTEL CPU, nice cpu cooler, an ASUS MOTHERBOARD, 16 GB FAST DDR RAM, NICE GRAPHICS CARD, GOOD COOLING & VENTILATION & a couple of nice DVD/BLUERAY DRIVES and a fan controller and VOILA - I have the fastest, smoothest running system ever.
Add a nice Logitech Dinovo keyboard, a nice mouse and some HarmomKardon Soundsticks and a 27" TFT SCREEN - and my system is not much more expensive compared to a Mac, but I guarentee you that it runs faster and smoother each and very day.

With that said, I honestly think the best laptop made is a Macbook Pro 15" - of course modded with an INTEL SSD DRIVE, and this is why I have a MacbookPro as my favorite laptop. It has light in the keyboard, nice simple design, good quality keyboard, nice screen, not full of symbols and stuff I don't need/want in a laptop.

I can even run windows on it, but have to admit, that Mac OSX is a very nice OS too, just like I think Windows 7 is.

I never have any bluescreen stuff with the PC computers I build myself, because I make sure to get a proper powerful power supply and nice cooling and ventilation inside the case.

So both macs and pcs work, when you set them up properly.
I also have a netbook from Samsung called N20, and for the price I said for it, It's very nice.

More often than not, It's not the Pc, but the gut who operates it, that causes the mal function.

max
01-04-2010, 11:34 AM
I've been sold for a long time on the value of Apple products. It costs more, but then again, better tennis racquets usually cost more than those you find in Wal-Mart.

mtommer
01-04-2010, 11:41 AM
Why?

1010char

Designers/publishers typically use MAC. The programs have been around for awhile and were originally coded for MAC so they work very well stand alone and with other complimentary apps (for example PS). Even iSuite of apps intended for the home user are better integrated and easier to use, especially movie editing, than what you find on Windows. Obviously many of these apps have come a long way but MAC is still more popular among reputable companies and MACs in general are more stable compared to Windows OS, though Windows has and is coming along. You have to understand that stuttering, shut downs, OS errors, etc. aren't nusances that are all that big a deal to home users but they are a pain in arse to users trying to get work done, who have to deal with deadlines etc. To that end, MACS are better in multimedia and used predominately by multimedia professionals if only because they represent far less hassle thus far greater productivity.

topspin
01-04-2010, 01:39 PM
I've worked and had my own computer business since 1990 and have not really had much demand at all for macs. I've played around with a couple but was not really wowed. One thing I didn't like was that I can't browse or connect to my home network. I did a lot of reading on forums to try to find a simple way to just connect and view the rest of my network and it's not possible. So it has very limited networking capabilities.

One of my clients had to get hers serviced twice within a year (apparently it would not shut down). Another client/friend told me just today that he had to replace his screen. So they are not as invincible as the tv commercial would want you to believe. They are computers like any others.

Yes it's true that you have few or 0 viruses but that's only because virus-writers have no interest in damaging a small market share. As Macs gain in market share, you will see viruses for them too.

The price of macs is still very high. This is what killed them in the 80's. It is still something that limits sales today. But they are more affordable today than they used to be.

I think they are fine for graphic designers and artists and maybe total beginners. They will run smoothly for the simple fact that you have limited software and that, in turn, means fewer software conflicts and incompatibilities. This also might change as software titles grow.

There is a post here saying that they uploaded a file a lot quicker on a mac than a pc. That makes no sense. The upload speed is determined by your internet connection. If it's the same file (same size) then it will upload at the same speed. Unless they still have a 300K baud dial up modem on the pc.

To me macs have a toyish look and feel to them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think it has its appeal.

Marketing is a major reason why macs are selling. Their tv ads are very successful and they managed to convince a lot of younger ppl that macs are hip and cool while pc's are for stuffy older business men. It's just clever marketing aimed at gaining a young market share so that they will be clients for life and also buy other Apple gadgets like the iphone/ipod.

It really becomes a matter of preference. Some people have to be 'different' so they like to say they are a mac user.

To me they are just computers like all others. More expensive computers and with limited software and networking capabilities. So I see no reason to switch. My pc's are fast and reliable and I can do everything I need and more.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 02:43 PM
My PC must be about 9 years old or something, can't remember exactly what year I put it together (it's a Pentium 4, 2.4gig, 1.5gb of PC2700 RAM, ASUS P4PE board) No PCI-E ports etc, just an AGP for the graphics card.


Cool. My pc has gotta be 9 years old too. 2.6p4 northwood, 1gb ram-pavilion. If i want to game i play 360. As far as surfing the net-burning cd's-dvd's, it still works great. I just vacuum it out and clean it every 6 months and it keeps running.

I wouldn't buy a mac simply because all kinds of software is for pc only.

edberg505
01-04-2010, 03:04 PM
Mac users are the same kind of people that buy VW cars. They think they are so different. When my desktop machine wears out I just call Dell and get another one for no more than 500 bucks. So eat that Mac and jam all your stupid commercials.

Buy a PC laptop and see how long that last. Then we can talk. LOL.

NamRanger
01-04-2010, 03:10 PM
The Macintosh OS during the Vista era was simply far superior in terms of performance. It utilized the hardware much more effectively, meaning that a Mac of substantially less overall power could actually outperform a PC if the software was equally developed for both.

However, with the advent of Windows 7, Mac's have their work cut out for them. The reason why people buy Macintosh is :

1. Easy to use
2. Stability
3. Great support
4. Overall good performance

However, you do pay a premium price tag for the Mac. For a non-technical savy person who doesn't need all the extra horsepower, but wants an easy to use computer with extremely good performance with software that is compatible with, then go Mac. That is, if you can afford it. Very similar to a luxary car such as a BMW or Volkswagon.





Where the PC wins is that it produces both for high end users and low end users, has high compatibility, and has massive power in the Operating System IF you know what you are doing.


PC users have MANY more programs at their disposal, and ultimately a person who becomes very familiar with computers will have a PC in their household, as it is simply way too powerful in too many ways to count once you know what you are doing.


Also, hardware for PC users is extremely cheap, while you have to go buy a whole new $1000 machine every few years or so when you go Mac. You can get nearly triple the performance of a Mac overall for a fraction of the price, especially if you know where to look for parts.






In my opinion, having a Mac for menial tasks such as web surfing, checking email, etc. is extremely nice. Very fast, efficient, and not prone to crashing at all. However, when you want to do things such as graphic design, programming, gaming, or any other high powered tasks, you will have to eventually go PC. Also, if I really wanted to just do surfing, checking email, etc. at an even faster rate, I'd just run Linux.

NamRanger
01-04-2010, 03:12 PM
Buy a PC laptop and see how long that last. Then we can talk. LOL.




The reason why PC laptops don't last is because they have slim models now however they do not underclock their hardware like most Mac slim line models do. This results in many PC laptop's killing themselves due to the fact that there is not cooling.


Macintosh had a big complaint with one of the Mac Book models where it was simply way too hot after about 30 minutes of use. After that, they basically took all of their laptop's and underclocked a few things so that it wouldn't run so hot, which results in a slower, but a more durable machine.


Many people like to point out that Mac laptops last longer when it comes to battery life. This is true. However, what most people don't realize is that the reason why this occurs is because Mac hardware also tends to be underclocked due to their slim frame, otherwise you'd be having alot of people complaining about heat issues. Alot of PC laptops with equal hardware actually have better performance; the only thing bottle necking them in the past was Vista which was a total failure of an operating system.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 03:25 PM
Buy a PC laptop and see how long that last. Then we can talk. LOL.
What is a PC laptop?

So far I've had no problems with my IBM Thinkpad which I bought used in 2004 (13000 hours uptime).

"Marketing is everything"

NamRanger
01-04-2010, 03:26 PM
What is a PC laptop?

So far I've had no problems with my IBM Thinkpad which I bought used in 2004 (13000 hours uptime).

"Marketing is everything"




Mac's do use better and more durable parts, however that comes with a 500 dollar hike. Your overall performance also is crippled due to the fact that Mac Book Pros from the Intel line underclocked their video card to keep it running silent and cool.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 03:29 PM
One thing I didn't like was that I can't browse or connect to my home network.It's super easy on Mac. You should have asked me. :)Yes it's true that you have few or 0 viruses but that's only because virus-writers have no interest in damaging a small market share. As Macs gain in market share, you will see viruses for them too.It's not just that. Mac OS is open source, whereas Windows is super secretive about their coding. In short, there are less places to hide viruses on a Mac.The price of macs is still very high.I agree prices are high, but it's rarely mentioned that we're not talking about two companies selling the same exact computer for different prices. There are differences that help justify the disparity in cost. An Audi A4 is undoubtedly more expensive than a Ford Taurus, and yes, they are both cars, but...
I think they are fine for graphic designers and artists and maybe total beginners. They will run smoothly for the simple fact that you have limited software and that, in turn, means fewer software conflicts and incompatibilities.Yes, Macs are great for certain professions, but it's even better for the average casual user. The average person spends 95% of their time using their computer for music, web browsing, and email, and aren't super technically savvy. I would argue that Macs are even more compatible with these people, the ones who just want a stable, easy to use computer for every day things, than for professionals, who tend to be more technically savvy anyways.

You can set up a Mac literally in 5 minutes. And it's also the most simple, best thought out system for the next level up above the most basic users, for people who listen to a lot of music, take a lot of pictures, and want to do some basic video editing. The easy learning curve of Mac apps can't be overstated. Also, the fact the hardware and software is perfectly integrated. With PC's, you're not sure what components are used, and for certain apps, incompatibility is inevitable.To me macs have a toyish look and feel to them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think it has its appeal. To me, Mac's feel much higher in quality. From the keyboard to the casing, feels way better than my friends' PC's, which feel snapped together in comparison. It's like the interior and dash of a 10,000 dollar car compared to, again, an Audi. Or the way even a door feels at a Holiday Inn or a Grand Hilton. A Mac's body feels like one solid piece, whereas a PC really feels assembled. It creaks, clicks, makes weird noises, feels cheap.Marketing is a major reason why macs are selling. Their tv ads are very successful and they managed to convince a lot of younger ppl that macs are hip and cool while pc's are for stuffy older business men. It's just clever marketing aimed at gaining a young market share so that they will be clients for life and also buy other Apple gadgets like the iphone/ipod.It's actually the other way around. People who buy iPods and appreciate its ease of use, dependability, and ergonomics are becoming more interested in the computers. I agree that the marketing is clever and goes for hip, but at the same time, I must say that the marketing is justified. What they say in their commercials is true, very different than what AT & T says in their ads. I have AT &T and it's terrible.

Sometimes the hype is justified. The iPod is still the most reliable and well thought out portable media player out there. The original and still the best, although people are closing the gap. If it was just clever marketing, people would buy the first generation and then start looking for a less expensive one after that. Just like movies, hype will get you a good first week, but after that, it's word of mouth. Truth is, iPod owners tend to buy more iPods, generation after generation.It really becomes a matter of preference. Some people have to be 'different' so they like to say they are a mac user.This is what I'm talking about, the Windows users commenting on Mac owners character.To me they are just computers like all others.You work with computers and you really believe all computers are alike? Interesting.

LiveForever
01-04-2010, 03:35 PM
It's super easy on Mac. You should have asked me. :)It's not just that. Mac OS is open source, whereas Windows is super secretive about their coding. In short, there are less places to hide viruses on a Mac.I agree prices are high, but it's rarely mentioned that we're not talking about two companies selling the same exact computer for different prices. There are differences that help justify the disparity in cost. An Audi A4 is undoubtedly more expensive than a Ford Taurus, and yes, they are both cars, but...
Yes, Macs are great for certain professions, but it's even better for the average casual user. The average person spends 95% of their time using their computer for music, web browsing, and email, and aren't super technically savvy. I would argue that Macs are even more compatible with these people, the ones who just want a stable, easy to use computer for every day things, than for professionals, who tend to be more technically savvy anyways.

You can set up a Mac literally in 5 minutes. And it's also the most simple, best thought out system for the next level up above the most basic users, for people who listen to a lot of music, take a lot of pictures, and want to do some basic video editing. The easy learning curve of Mac apps can't be overstated. Also, the fact the hardware and software is perfectly integrated. With PC's, you're not sure what components are used, and for certain apps, incompatibility is inevitable. To me, Mac's feel much higher in quality. From the keyboard to the casing, feels way better than my friends' PC's, which feel snapped together in comparison. It's like the interior and dash of a 10,000 dollar car compared to, again, an Audi. Or the way even a door feels at a Holiday Inn or a Grand Hilton. A Mac's body feels like one solid piece, whereas a PC really feels assembled. It creaks, clicks, makes weird noises, feels cheap.It's actually the other way around. People who buy iPods and appreciate its ease of use, dependability, and ergonomics are becoming more interested in the computers. I agree that the marketing is clever and goes for hip, but at the same time, I must say that the marketing is justified. What they say in their commercials is true, very different than what AT & T says in their ads. I have AT &T and it's terrible.

Sometimes the hype is justified. The iPod is still the most reliable and well thought out portable media player out there. The original and still the best, although people are closing the gap. If it was just clever marketing, people would buy the first generation and then start looking for a less expensive one after that. Just like movies, hype will get you a good first week, but after that, it's word of mouth. Truth is, iPod owners tend to buy more iPods, generation after generation.This is what I'm talking about, the Windows users commenting on Mac owners character.You work with computers and you really believe all computers are alike? Interesting.
Well said, 35ft6. I have been using a PC laptop for years and now I got a macbook pro. There is simply no comparison. Everything is easier. Itunes,iphone, pictures, movies, files etc can be managed easily. The battery life is tremendous. Never gonna go back to PC. :shock:

The only crappy thing is not having any writing software to begin with. I had to buy iworks separately.

NamRanger
01-04-2010, 03:36 PM
You work with computers and you really believe all computers are alike? Interesting.




Hardware wise PCs and Macs are virtually the same; the difference lies in how they interface with the hardware (Operating System).

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 03:36 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would buy a mac when literally all software, freeware, is all pc based. I never seen any software that said mac compatible.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 03:46 PM
Windows people spend a lot of time attacking Macs and their owners.Okay, so with that in mind, lets review just this thread:Macs are for snobs (i.e. members of the Expensive Players Club here).
Apple Mac = Fisher Price activity centre for adults.
i hate macs. and you're right, it's just a matter of branding: having one means you're hip, and "with it" and sophisticated. i think they're lame.
Mac users are the same kind of people that buy VW cars. They think they are so different. When my desktop machine wears out I just call Dell and get another one for no more than 500 bucks. So eat that Mac and jam all your stupid commercials.
It really becomes a matter of preference. Some people have to be 'different' so they like to say they are a mac user.
And I left out the 3 or 4 comments where Mac users were said to be lazy and/or too stupid to own PC's. And the comments about class, I just left the snob one in for that.

That's a really strange argument by the way. I look at my computer like I look at cars, I won't want to have to fix it. So:
Most people are too lazy or dumb to figure out how to run a PC well and how to clean out their system, which boosts performance like no other.
I think I'm a fairly typical satisfied PC customer, I know how they work well enough not to be bothered by some of Window's problems.

Macs on the other hand tend to be bought by people who don't know how to maintain their computers or can't be bothered to try, so they end up paying more for them and have to call for help when they go wrong (and they do from time to time, depending on what you use them for and how much software you install etc.)
These comments are bizarre. People are being criticized because they don't want to deal with problems?

35ft6
01-04-2010, 03:51 PM
Hardware wise PCs and Macs are virtually the same; the difference lies in how they interface with the hardware (Operating System).How they interface with the hardware is a critical difference, though. But physically, the finish of Mac's compared to Windows computers I've seen are huge. The thought they put into the design, the user experience. A person could trivialize that, but to me, again, it's like a car. Sure, you can say a car is for getting from point A to point B, but to me the comfort of the seats and ride, the handling, how the controls are positioned, the sound system, the ease of use of GPS, the way the outside looks, fuel consumption, power -- all that stuff matters. And reliability. It's bizarre that some are taking a blame the victim approach. I'm computer savvy enough to have changed CPU's, installed faster modems, changed hard drives, installed additional RAM, but beyond that, forget it. I don't WANT to have to tinker with my computer any more than I want to tinker with my car. I just want it to work. I buy it with specific things in mind and call me lazy and stupid but fixing it isn't one of those things.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 03:56 PM
The only crappy thing is not having any writing software to begin with. I had to buy iworks separately.Yeah, that would be cool if they offered a decent word processor. I have Office for Mac, but I rarely use it. Text Edit is fine for me most of the time. You can get Office for Mac Student Edition for 100 bucks and when I bought it in store they didn't check ID. And you know about Neo Office, right? (http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/index.php).

Kevin T
01-04-2010, 04:01 PM
One big difference between Apple and PC users...Have you ever seen a car with a 'Microsoft', 'Intel' or 'PC' sticker on the back bumper/window? Of all the things to slap in the back window, you choose a computer maker's sticker? :)

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 04:02 PM
I don't WANT to have to tinker with my computer any more than I want to tinker with my car.


Didn't you go with a audi? You know those german cars are notorious at being the most unreliable luxury cars on the planet along with Mercedes benz and BMW? Each trip to the dealer=1k.

NamRanger
01-04-2010, 04:03 PM
How they interface with the hardware is a critical difference, though. But physically, the finish of Mac's compared to Windows computers I've seen are huge. The thought they put into the design, the user experience. A person could trivialize that, but to me, again, it's like a car. Sure, you can say a car is for getting from point A to point B, but to me the comfort of the seats and ride, the handling, how the controls are positioned, the sound system, the ease of use of GPS, the way the outside looks, fuel consumption, power -- all that stuff matters. And reliability. It's bizarre that some are taking a blame the victim approach. I'm computer savvy enough to have changed CPU's, installed faster modems, changed hard drives, installed additional RAM, but beyond that, forget it. I don't WANT to have to tinker with my computer any more than I want to tinker with my car. I just want it to work. I buy it with specific things in mind and call me lazy and stupid but fixing it isn't one of those things.



Some people enjoy tinkering with their PC; theoretically a PC is capable of far more things than a Mac could ever possibly dream of, especially in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. It's just a matter of preference. Some people will pay the premium of Macintosh for less hassle, and that's fine.



Currently PC's can look very sleek too if you are building your own. Also, Windows 7 is a tremendous improvement over Windows Vista, and rivals Macintosh's O/S so far.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 04:07 PM
How much are macs to fix if they break down? Do they=twice as expensive like a bmw or mercedes at the computer shop :confused:

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 04:09 PM
Currently PC's can look very sleek too if you are building your own. Also, Windows 7 is a tremendous improvement over Windows Vista, and rivals Macintosh's O/S so far.



What's wrong with XP? If you know how to lockdown it's just as secure as anything?

Lakoste
01-04-2010, 04:11 PM
Mac's are for small timers, seriously. If price isn't a factor, and you want mobile reliable solution then Apple shouldn't even be considered. If you have a budget of $1k to $1,500 and only doing basic tasks then Apple is a solid option.

I have a MBP and a MB Air, but use my Lenovo x301 as my main laptop since Excel on OSX is not the same as Windows.

OrangeOne
01-04-2010, 04:11 PM
I just dont understand why Macs have been so hyped lately. It just seems to me now that Macs are more or less just shiny toys people have to simply flaunt the fact that they can afford one. I don't see how one can justify $1100 for the entry level macs that have mediocre at best techinical specs while you can get good if not, great laptops at that price. These macs have last generation core 2 duo processors running at 2 ghz, while laptops at that same price have i7s and if you're lucky, have video cards like hd 4670s in them.

Do people really buy macs because of performace, or because it's just a stutus symbol and pretty to look at?

Is it possible to assume you're 15 or 16 without causing offence?

I thought the same at that age (whether you are or not), hell, I have an IT degree and have never owned anything other than an IBM....until my next purchase, which this month will be a Mac.

Why will it be mac? As others have said, reliability, real performance, and usability, not to mention design integrity and consistency. I have many friends with macs and they have a less frustrating ownership experience. They open the cover less (or not at all). They get real performance, and consistent performance (unlike most IBMs that seem to get a 'cancer' and slow down over a year or 2 and then need a windows re-install and rebuild to 'unclutter' them back to original performance. Things just work. Things are relatively consistent across the range. Things just install and work, with much less worry along the way.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 04:15 PM
Mac OS is open source, whereas Windows is super secretive about their coding.
Wrong. NeXTSTEP, Mac OS X's core, is closed source with some open source parts taken from FreeBSD and NetBSD.

Apple's stuff is as proprietary and secret as it can get. Let me know when iTunes has native FLAC (free, open source) support.

Vendor lock-in anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock_in#Apple_Inc.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 04:23 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would buy a mac when literally all software, freeware, is all pc based. I never seen any software that said mac compatible.
From the top off my head:
OpenOffice, Audacity, VLC Player, Blender, GStreamer, Apache HTTP Server, Eclipse, ...

OrangeOne
01-04-2010, 04:31 PM
Mac's are for small timers, seriously. If price isn't a factor, and you want mobile reliable solution then Apple shouldn't even be considered.

as my main laptop since Excel on OSX is not the same as Windows.

Most bizarre post of the day.

a. Some of the most power-users I've ever met are mac users, excel differences aren't the single barometer of 'power'. I know database users that live on macs, I know many graphics professionals that live on macs, I know many families that gear their home network (simply) on macs.

b. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on reliability of their laptops, I've seen some used over years in harsher environments than most people would dream of taking standard laptops and been more reliable than you can imagine. I've also used 5 year old macbooks that work and are not slow as mud and not falling apart, I can't say that for many IBM compats.

defrule
01-04-2010, 04:32 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would buy a mac when literally all software, freeware, is all pc based. I never seen any software that said mac compatible.

Download.com have a Mac tab full of Mac software.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 04:36 PM
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/03/16/manufacturer-confirm.html

:-)

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 04:53 PM
Download.com have a Mac tab full of Mac software.

Snapfiles seems to be missing mac.

meowmix
01-04-2010, 04:55 PM
I recently got a mac, and have been using a Microsoft Vista based laptop for the past few years in high school. I got the laptop freshman year, and although I've had quite a few glitches and problems, they weren't anything major, or that a hard shutdown followed up resetting the computer a bit didn't fix. Consider the price: 350 dollars, including a free printer, free CA security suite, and a free modem. The actual cost of the laptop itself was around 170 bucks. And this 170 dollar laptop has gotten me through high school with little to no problem.

I also own a tower pc. My dad bought it back in 1998 or 1999, so it's 10-11 years old now. Believe it or not, it hasn't failed us yet, although it did contract serious viruses 3 times over the decade. In this case, we reset everything, and my mom STILL uses, to this day, that computer. It's specs are absolute crap- pentium III, 256 mb of ram, 30 gigs in its harddrive. My dad bought it for around 1000 dollars back in the day (or so he says). I'd say that it's price was justified, considering how long we've been using it.

The final computer I've owned is something that my dad bought in around 1993. It was a large, not particularly powerful, and quite limiting computer. It was a PC. That monster was good enough for me up until middle school, until I had to do use extra programs that the computer couldn't handle. I SEVERELY doubt that the harddrive could hold more than two gigs of memory, and the ram was probably in the range of 16mbs. The thing finally stopped worked last year, after 15 years of service.

So far, no computer has ever truly failed me before its time was up. To say that macs are more reliable... I simply cannot really believe it. My pc's that I use at home, and the ones that my dad gets from work have all been excellent computers that have yet to really fail. The mac that I got... sure, it's quite a bit faster than this pc that I'm using right now, and it sure looks a lot better. But you know what? I think that pc's are a heck of a lot more bang for the buck that my mac will be (for the record, my aunt bought me the mac as a pre-graduation/going to college gift. It cost her 728 for the computer, and an addition 300 or so for the warranty).

southpaw
01-04-2010, 04:56 PM
Wrong. NeXTSTEP, Mac OS X's core, is closed source with some open source parts taken from FreeBSD and NetBSD.

Apple's stuff is as proprietary and secret as it can get. Let me know when iTunes has native FLAC (free, open source) support.

Vendor lock-in anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock_in#Apple_Inc.

No good deed goes unpunished. Come on, give Apple some credit. They have at least tried to support the spirit of the open source movement. Their OS is, for the most part, POSIX compliant. Darwin has died off, but for a time, it was the open source version of their kernel. Many of their current core components and tools are open source projects. Compare that with Microsoft, that as far as I know, contributes nothing, and is actually openly hostile towards any thing open source.

onehandbh
01-04-2010, 04:59 PM
The attacks from the PC side sure have gotten personal.
Sort of like the people that would rather push their Chevy or
Ford than drive an Japanese import.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-04-2010, 05:02 PM
The attacks from the PC side sure have gotten personal.
Sort of like the people that would rather push their Chevy or
Ford than drive an Japanese import.


We run pc's and american muscle here son.

Mr. Blond
01-04-2010, 05:15 PM
I am sorry, but the argument about viruses is stupid. If enough people convert over to mac, it won't be long before there are mac exploits.

Viruses on pcs exist because that drives the sales of virus scan software.......how else would they have the fixes for them when they are discovered.

As for the popularity of macs...marketing has a bit to do with it. When was the last time you saw someone use a PC on television or in a movie......they almost always are using macs. Why, cuz most TV production companies use mac and are brand loyal.

Still and all, the product placement does drive sales. PC's are not branded the same as mac also because there are so freakin many builders of PC.

Another thing is that PC is not necessarily tied to Microsoft.....the pc manufacture is it's own company. Mac is hardware and software all in one....

As for which is better, Macs are nice...but any astute pc user can keep em running for a fraction of the cost.

Problem with PC for most people is that they are to dumb to avoid viruses and worms in the first place, so their pc ends up being a slug.

onehandbh
01-04-2010, 05:28 PM
When was the last time you saw someone use a PC on television or in a movie......they almost always are using macs. Why, cuz most TV production companies use mac and are brand loyal.



Not true. Actually, it's product placement. Not b/c the TV
production companies use it and are brand loyal. For the
most part, all props, wardrobe, etc that contain labels, logos,
etc have to have the rights cleared first.


Problem with PC for most people is that they are to dumb to avoid viruses and worms in the first place, so their pc ends up being a slug.

Plus how many updates are there for PC's? It's like
non-stop. Totally annoying.

I dont' think macs are the greatest thing since the bikini
was invented, but for video editing, it does pretty well and
PC's can't run final cut pro. Adobe premier sucks. FCP
is even taking some business away from Avid. How many
TV shows/ post production houses use Adobe Premier?
Sony's offering? Windows movie maker?

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 05:34 PM
Compare that with Microsoft, that as far as I know, contributes nothing, and is actually openly hostile towards any thing open source.
Yeah, not much. Close to nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-V#Linux_support

Don't know if Hyper-V is actually included in the latest Linux kernel. I agree what you're saying re being hostile towards OSS. Their lobbying makes me sick.

Mr. Blond
01-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Not true. Actually, it's product placement. Not b/c the TV
production companies use it and are brand loyal. For the
most part, all props, wardrobe, etc that contain labels, logos,
etc have to have the rights cleared first.



Plus how many updates are there for PC's? It's like
non-stop. Totally annoying.



Yes the updates can be annoying. I agree there.

As for product placement....that is what I mean when I say marketing. Macs are just marketed more successfully to the not so techy person out there. Partly because everything they do is in house.

OrangeOne
01-04-2010, 05:59 PM
Plus how many updates are there for PC's? It's like non-stop. Totally annoying.

Good point. There have been times when I have been running events (time critical), and have rebooted, turned away to do something, turned around, turned back after 2 or 3 mins hoping to see the machine ready to use...and my damn pc laptop has chosen that moment for a 'windows update' in the middle of the boot sequence....

I could scream, in fact, I'm sure I did.

meltphace 6
01-04-2010, 06:00 PM
Yes the updates can be annoying. I agree there.

As for product placement....that is what I mean when I say marketing. Macs are just marketed more successfully to the not so techy person out there. Partly because everything they do is in house.
Watch out! KDE is about to take over your desktop soon...

http://linuxologist.com/general/7-instances-of-kde-appearances-on-the-silver-screen/

defrule
01-04-2010, 06:02 PM
I am sorry, but the argument about viruses is stupid. If enough people convert over to mac, it won't be long before there are mac exploits.


Regardless, right now it does have much less viruses and exploits.

You could argue if enough people migrated to Macs then a lot more games would be made on the platform but it doesn't change the fact that Macs don't have access to as wide range of games.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 06:03 PM
To say that macs are more reliable... I simply cannot really believe it.But which PC did you get? PC encompasses tons of different companies. A Mac is a Mac.

35ft6
01-04-2010, 06:09 PM
Wrong. NeXTSTEP, Mac OS X's core, is closed source with some open source parts taken from FreeBSD and NetBSD.Article I based that comment on is one I read a couple of years ago. Besides that, I can't comment. On not a developer.

You would think with all the hostility towards Mac owners and Mac owners talking about how they don't have to deal with viruses, some hardcore PC gangsters would come up with some viruses to settle scores or something.

Lakoste
01-04-2010, 11:00 PM
Most bizarre post of the day.

a. Some of the most power-users I've ever met are mac users, excel differences aren't the single barometer of 'power'. I know database users that live on macs, I know many graphics professionals that live on macs, I know many families that gear their home network (simply) on macs.

b. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on reliability of their laptops, I've seen some used over years in harsher environments than most people would dream of taking standard laptops and been more reliable than you can imagine. I've also used 5 year old macbooks that work and are not slow as mud and not falling apart, I can't say that for many IBM compats.

a. Don't know what you keep going on about "power" for, especially since I never claimed that Apple's lineup was weak for the price. Excel differences are the single reason I choose to not use Macs on a daily basis, that is why I brought up Excel. Congrats for your friends, no clue why they're relevant.

b. I think their reliability is overrated, although better than most. I tend to get most Apple products to play with, then sell them when the newer models come out for 80% of the value (that is one thing I love about Apple, their fanboys will pay top dollar for last generation products), so I have had my fair share of Apple computers. A couple times the problems have been failed hard drives to bad mobos; issues that can't be really avoided. Their slot load drives also drive me crazy with how often they die, although a fix is a couple hours at the Apple store. I've had a MBP that gave off an annoying whine which Apple replaced and told me that many others were experiencing the same problem. Of course a lot of people remember the issues with MB getting permanently discolored and Apple replacing those too. Since you brought up IBM, I've only had to send one laptop back to them for a manufacturer problem. I still use my 12" Powerbook from years ago that I baby and still does basic tasks fine, so I agree with you that there isn't much slow down compared to a PC if you don't like to reformat.

aphex
01-05-2010, 12:58 AM
I'm pretty sure that anybody who tries a Mac, will never go back to a PC,
What does this thread have to do with Tennis?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this.

aphex
01-05-2010, 01:05 AM
design is also very important (for me).
not a very tough choice here.


http://www.i-quipment.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/a/p/apple-27-kb-mm-sideon_1.png

http://myezyshop.com/shop/img/pc.JPG

OrangeOne
01-05-2010, 01:48 AM
Question:

a. Don't know what you keep going on about "power" for, especially since I never claimed that Apple's lineup was weak for the price. Excel differences are the single reason I choose to not use Macs on a daily basis, that is why I brought up Excel. Congrats for your friends, no clue why they're relevant.

Answer:

Mac's are for small timers, seriously. If price isn't a factor, and you want mobile reliable solution then Apple shouldn't even be considered. If you have a budget of $1k to $1,500 and only doing basic tasks then Apple is a solid option.

That's why I was talking about power. Not so much power as in raw ghz grunt, power as in capability. Things that are very much not 'basic tasks for small timers'.

Oh - and I'll pass on the congrats to my irrelevant friends :D

Can see where you're coming from in b. To be fair to PC, I have found genuine IBM corporate level products to be fairly amazing quality and good for the long-term too.... don't know if Lenovo is maintaining the rage (but those I've used would seem too indicate they are).

Sentinel
01-05-2010, 06:55 AM
I am sorry, but the argument about viruses is stupid. If enough people convert over to mac, it won't be long before there are mac exploits.

Well, technically you are right -- there's nothing that is totally immune to a virus or worm. But the underlying unix system is far tougher to get through than the Windows OS.

THe second point you said about people on Windows being stupid

Problem with PC for most people is that they are to dumb to avoid viruses and worms in the first place, so their pc ends up being a slug.

True, you can avoid some viruses on Windows by not clicking on some file etc or opening certain mails, however, still i've seen cases of the entire organization getting infected (all Windows machines).

The source of Linux and BSD being open (I assume the Mac kernel is open, not sure) means a lot of people have reviewed it, so security flaws are noticed and fixed a lot faster than in the closed source world)

Anyway, i don't know if anyone makes a choice to move to Linux or Mac only for viruses -- unless its a knee jerk reaction. In my small circle, most of the folks seemed quite satisfied with their PC's, they tried out the Mac and now they seem fine with it and have switched more machines.

sureshs
01-05-2010, 07:51 AM
Why pay more for a fancy design in the Mac (which usually lacks important peripherals in order to appear sleek) when all you do is use a browser and MS Office?

Why run Linux to appear to be different from others, when all you do is use a browser and be limited to a poor man's version of MS Office like Open Office, just because it is free?

There is a reason Macs and Linux machines are used only by the minority (as personal computers). The promised Linux desktop is always "arriving" but never actually arrives.

Ronny
01-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Design? Windows Desktops have much better designs as you can custom build your own and there are MANY choices out there. The pic which you showed is just a plain ****** looking one. Try looking at alienware and etc. I much rather their designs to macs. THough the macs are thin.

dougery
01-05-2010, 09:04 AM
I've been a life long PC user. Started with an Atari 400, moved to the 800, then Amiga, IBM, then started my own builds. I've have experience with many prebuilt desktops and notebooks (IBM, Dell, Compaq, Sony, Lenovo, Asus). For my daily needs, my desktop will always be a PC. I like having the options to upgrade and personalize my rig. As far as laptops go, I'm switching to Mac. I've put a lot of time and thought into this purchase and made this decision due to the following:

* Dual operating systems. Can run both Snow Leopard and Windows through Bootcamp.
* Customer Support. CS for almost all Windows based laptops is fair to horrible. Dealing with Sony was the worst, and working with Dell for a simple part replacement is akin to getting a root canal. Since my wife will be using the laptop a lot, quality/easy CS is a must. Apple wins hands down. This in itself justifys the added cost.
* Build quality. There is no other laptop that has the same build quality as Apple.
* Not as many viruses. Someone in the thread incorrectly stated that Macs are immune to viruses. This is totally incorrect. Macs are just as vulnerable to viruses as PC's, but since the vast majority of computer users use a Windows based OS, most hackers write viruses for PC's. As Macs become more popular, more hackers will turn their heads towards Mac. But for now, Its nice to know that there are very few Mac Viruses.

If I did more gaming, then I would very likely go with a Windows based Lappy, but since this is strictly for multimedia, and daily work, I feel Mac will be the prudent choice.

dougery
01-05-2010, 09:04 AM
I've been a life long PC user. Started with an Atari 400, moved to the 800, then Amiga, IBM, then started my own builds. I've have experience with many prebuilt desktops and notebooks (IBM, Dell, Compaq, Sony, Lenovo, Asus). For my daily needs, my desktop will always be a PC. I like having the options to upgrade and personalize my rig. As far as laptops go, I'm switching to Mac. I've put a lot of time and thought into this purchase and made this decision due to the following:

* Dual operating systems. Can run both Snow Leopard and Windows through Bootcamp.
* Customer Support. CS for almost all Windows based laptops is fair to horrible. Dealing with Sony was the worst, and working with Dell for a simple part replacement is akin to getting a root canal. Since my wife will be using the laptop a lot, quality/easy CS is a must. Apple wins hands down. This in itself justifys the added cost.
* Build quality. There is no other laptop that has the same build quality as Apple.
* Not as many viruses. Someone in the thread incorrectly stated that Macs are immune to viruses. This is totally incorrect. Macs are just as vulnerable to viruses as PC's, but since the vast majority of computer users use a Windows based OS, most hackers write viruses for PC's. As Macs become more popular, more hackers will turn their heads towards Mac. But for now, Its nice to know that there are very few Mac Viruses.

If I did more gaming, then I would very likely go with a Windows based Lappy, but since this is strictly for multimedia, and daily work, I feel Mac will be the prudent choice.

topspin
01-05-2010, 09:08 AM
It's super easy on Mac. You should have asked me. :).

I researched Apple forums and apparently it can't be done. But hey I'll take you up on your offer. If you have the steps, let me know.


Mac OS is open source, whereas Windows is super secretive about their coding. In short, there are less places to hide viruses on a Mac.

I've worked exclusively in the anti-virus field and can tell you that viruses have nothing to do with open source code. Trust me, the day that virus-writers decide to hit Macs, you will feel the pinch and need anti virus software. A virus is simply a piece of undesirable software. To suggest that it can't be written for a Mac is to suggest that you can't write software for a Mac.[/quote]


I agree prices are high, but it's rarely mentioned that we're not talking about two companies selling the same exact computer for different prices. There are differences that help justify the disparity in cost. An Audi A4 is undoubtedly more expensive than a Ford Taurus, and yes, they are both cars, but...

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a Mac is an Audi and a PC is a Ford. I see that the marketing campaign has really affected you.

With PC's, you're not sure what components are used, and for certain apps, incompatibility is inevitable. To me, Mac's feel much higher in quality. From the keyboard to the casing, feels way better than my friends' PC's, which feel snapped together in comparison. It's like the interior and dash of a 10,000 dollar car compared to, again, an Audi. Or the way even a door feels at a Holiday Inn or a Grand Hilton. A Mac's body feels like one solid piece, whereas a PC really feels assembled. It creaks, clicks, makes weird noises, feels cheap.

On the contrary. With PC's I know exactly what I'm getting and can build my own pc. I encourage my clients to do the same. With Macs you are stuck with whatever hardware you get in a particular model.

I don't know what kind of pc you put together but you obviously have never seen one of my systems. I choose good components (case, ps, m/b etc) and they look and feel really professional and solid. A well built pc will look and feel solid and not creak or click or make weird noises. And the price is still hundreds below a comparable Mac. So just avoid the el cheapo bargain basement components and you'll be fine.

It's actually the other way around. People who buy iPods and appreciate its ease of use, dependability, and ergonomics are becoming more interested in the computers. I agree that the marketing is clever and goes for hip, but at the same time, I must say that the marketing is justified.

I would say the marketing is just marketing with its usual attempt to mislead. Just like a beer ad that shows people partying and having a great time. They just want you to associate beer with a good time even though you might drink it in your old dingy basement all by yourself (sad). Mac has successfully managed to link their products with 'hip and cool' and 'different'. That is quite a coup that has helped their bottom line and stock price tremendously


Sometimes the hype is justified. The iPod is still the most reliable and well thought out portable media player out there. The original and still the best, although people are closing the gap.

You really seem in love with anything that Apple makes. I would say that their media player is hyped and over priced. You can get equally good media players from other brands at a fraction of the price; but you won't be as 'cool' if you do.

If it was just clever marketing, people would buy the first generation and then start looking for a less expensive one after that. Just like movies, hype will get you a good first week, but after that, it's word of mouth. Truth is, iPod owners tend to buy more iPods, generation after generation.This is what I'm talking about, the Windows users commenting on Mac owners character.

The whole purpose of grabbing a young market is because we humans tend to stick with what we know. I know people that own 3 Toyota's and won't even go look at other brands. They got a Toyota years ago and they were happy with it so they just stuck with it and avoided the hassle of doing research. The same is true with other products including Apple products. This is why they are so aggressively trying to appeal to younger people.

You work with computers and you really believe all computers are alike? Interesting.

Interesting? You obviously didn't understand what I was saying. I'm saying computers are pieces of electronic components that run on software. They are 'alike' in that sense and can all fail at times. So to suggest that one is more fool-proof than another is just clever marketing. You have to look at individual models and components in a pc to make a claim for reliability. More than likely, I can sell you a solid power supply that will cost more than your el cheapo noisy pc's case, ps, and mainboard. Shop and compare and don't pay too much attention to ads and marketing.

aphex
01-05-2010, 09:26 AM
Design? Windows Desktops have much better designs as you can custom build your own and there are MANY choices out there. The pic which you showed is just a plain ****** looking one. Try looking at alienware and etc. I much rather their designs to macs. THough the macs are thin.

you mean like this?

http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/alienware-area51.jpg


obviously we have different perceptions of what good design means.
let's just leave it at that.

sureshs
01-05-2010, 10:51 AM
Who cares about design once you have used it for a day or two and showed it to your friends? Will you sit and admire the looks or get some work done? And when you are alone, as most computer users are during work, who will admire it?

FD3S
01-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Disclaimer: I've got nothing against Macs (other than the ancient first-gen iMac, that thing was garbage), but this topic screams for this comic to be posted:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/12/

mucat
01-05-2010, 12:16 PM
you mean like this?

http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/alienware-area51.jpg


obviously we have different perceptions of what good design means.
let's just leave it at that.

Or this:
http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/803/lianli-001.jpg


PC is about freedom to do whatever you want with your machine.
Mac is about being trendy and having whatever everyone is having.

OrangeOne
01-05-2010, 12:29 PM
Mac vs PC. This topic is almost banned on some forums....

Topspin - you weren't replying to me, but I'm gonna add a bit more weight to the flipside.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a Mac is an Audi and a PC is a Ford. I see that the marketing campaign has really affected you.

You know, it's not the worst comparison i've ever heard.

Another comparison -especially from the way you're talking - a mac is any major brand of car, and a PC is a kit car that requires assembly etc.

On the contrary. With PC's I know exactly what I'm getting and can build my own pc. I encourage my clients to do the same. With Macs you are stuck with whatever hardware you get in a particular model.

I don't know what you do 'in computing' - but any hardware professional i've ever met would never ever recommend a component-based solution to any business. Bring on the brand-name box please. Additionally, any SMB or corporate that I've worked for has used major-brand build-based systems.

(With very minimal exceptions) You don't buy an in-the-box IBM or HP and then choose a power-supply or a case...at least in the way you're referring to.

I don't know what kind of pc you put together but you obviously have never seen one of my systems. I choose good components (case, ps, m/b etc) and they look and feel really professional and solid. A well built pc will look and feel solid and not creak or click or make weird noises. And the price is still hundreds below a comparable Mac. So just avoid the el cheapo bargain basement components and you'll be fine.

Sounds like the creaky clicky reference was to PC laptops versus mac laptops....

You really seem in love with anything that Apple makes. I would say that their media player is hyped and over priced. You can get equally good media players from other brands at a fraction of the price; but you won't be as 'cool' if you do.

You're dreaming. Firstly, others cost less, a 'fraction' is technically correct but emotive language - it implies we're talking about 100's of percent markup, when in reality we're not even talking... probably a third for an iPod over any respectable brand. Then, when it comes to usability of both the iPod, and the content-management... nothing compares.

I'm a closet-geek, I have an IT degree, and I can't be bothered stuffing with anything other than an iPod. For the 95% of the population that are less geeky than me (ie. Joe Schmoe consumer), the iPod/iTunes system makes music management and access easy. I often get asked by friends what system to buy, and since Apple sorted reliability in the iPods...maybe after version 1...I've never recommended anything else. I've also seen people struggle with the other devices.

The whole purpose of grabbing a young market is because we humans tend to stick with what we know. I know people that own 3 Toyota's and won't even go look at other brands. They got a Toyota years ago and they were happy with it so they just stuck with it and avoided the hassle of doing research. The same is true with other products including Apple products. This is why they are so aggressively trying to appeal to younger people.

Yup, and if 'PC' as a group could unite and do this, 'they' would. But there's too many segments. Microsoft tries to unite the front, but they're not hardware. So the marketing just isn't possible, or it would be being done...

Interesting? You obviously didn't understand what I was saying. I'm saying computers are pieces of electronic components that run on software. They are 'alike' in that sense and can all fail at times. So to suggest that one is more fool-proof than another is just clever marketing.

That's not true. Different devices have different average lifetimes. Different quality equals different reliability.

You have to look at individual models and components in a pc to make a claim for reliability.

Why should joe-consumer want to? I need a power supply.... now I need a main board.... now I need a ........ Or, "I have a job to get done, I need a computer that can do it please".

PC's...Kit cars. Great fun for specialised applications like going racing. Keep mechanics in business. Require specialised knowledge to assemble and keep going. Etc etc.

sureshs
01-05-2010, 01:12 PM
Any reason why Macs should be expensive? They use Intel hardware these days. Is it just a matter of "prestige pricing" or is there more to it?

dougery
01-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Advertising...

dougery
01-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Any reason why Macs should be expensive? They use Intel hardware these days. Is it just a matter of "prestige pricing" or is there more to it?

... and acquisitions like these:

"Apple announced a deal Tuesday to buy mobile advertising service Quattro Wireless to counter Google's proposed $750 acquisition of Quattro rival AdMob."

sureshs
01-05-2010, 03:23 PM
I understand the innovations Apple did in the iPhone (touch screen, music store, social networking integration etc) but as far as personal computers go, I haven't seen much, unless you call a single-button mouse or cascading windows or a small-box computer (with little expandability) an important innovation. The OS is basically Unix which they got for free.

I want Google to release PCs with Chrome OS installed and drive both MS and Apple out of business. No one should pay for operating systems any more, given how good the Linux kernel is.

topspin
01-05-2010, 03:36 PM
Another comparison -especially from the way you're talking - a mac is any major brand of car, and a PC is a kit car that requires assembly etc.

I would not word it that way. I would say that a Mac is a fixed type of car that works fine and has limited companies making parts for it. A pc is a car that you can tune to your liking and enhance however you please. I would also say that a pc can run just fine if you go with an 'out of the box' solution.


I don't know what you do 'in computing' - but any hardware professional i've ever met would never ever recommend a component-based solution to any business.

What I do in computing is consult, sell hardware/software, teach, and develop software. As for recommending custom-based pc's to business, this is not something I advocated in this thread. For businesses, I would sell brand names just for the fact that they offer 24/7 support. But for the sake of performance and flexibility, it is a huge loss since some brand names do not encourage or make it easy to upgrade components. Getting back on topic though, this does not make Mac any better than an out-of-the-box solution in the PC realm.


Sounds like the creaky clicky reference was to PC laptops versus mac laptops....

Not sure. If so, it's still not an accurate statement other than the particular laptop used by that other poster.


You're dreaming. Firstly, others cost less, a 'fraction' is technically correct but emotive language - it implies we're talking about 100's of percent markup, when in reality we're not even talking... probably a third for an iPod over any respectable brand. Then, when it comes to usability of both the iPod, and the content-management... nothing compares.

I assure you I'm quite awake. No one suggested other brands are 100% less expensive.


Yup, and if 'PC' as a group could unite and do this, 'they' would. But there's too many segments. Microsoft tries to unite the front, but they're not hardware. So the marketing just isn't possible, or it would be being done...

They are marketing windows 7 aggressively and it seems to have Apple on the defense now that Microsoft finally can get rid of the whole Vista fiasco. I have never installed Vista on any of my systems or for my clients. I was sticking with XP since it works just fine and takes up less resources. Windows 7 is something I am recommending currently.


That's not true. Different devices have different average lifetimes. Different quality equals different reliability.

That's exactly what I'm saying. They are all electronic components but different because they have different designers/manufacturers. Hence the need to avoid generalizing.


Why should joe-consumer want to? I need a power supply.... now I need a main board.... now I need a ........ Or, "I have a job to get done, I need a computer that can do it please".

PC's...Kit cars. Great fun for specialised applications like going racing. Keep mechanics in business. Require specialised knowledge to assemble and keep going. Etc etc.

The thing you don't understand is that the average consumer does not HAVE to build their own pc if they don't wish to do so. But it sure is nice to have that option and to be able to build a really solid system to your liking and still spend less than a Mac. My honest opinion. I have nothing against Mac. I just find they are overhyped.

soyizgood
01-05-2010, 03:56 PM
I understand the innovations Apple did in the iPhone (touch screen, music store, social networking integration etc) but as far as personal computers go, I haven't seen much, unless you call a single-button mouse or cascading windows or a small-box computer (with little expandability) an important innovation. The OS is basically Unix which they got for free.

I want Google to release PCs with Chrome OS installed and drive both MS and Apple out of business. No one should pay for operating systems any more, given how good the Linux kernel is.

I've used Mac, Windows, Linux (also aix unix, hp ux, freebsd) for a long time and still use them in some form. They cater to different folks.

The unix camp takes pride that they haven't "sold out" trying to be everything for everyone. The internet (email, telnet, gopher, ftp) was built on unix. The C and C++ programming languages were built for unix. Of course, they can be arrogant as well, use history as their excuse as to why their OS is superior (yet this OS family has been fragmented by many different vendors to where it confuses casual folks that would be interested in going that route). Unix could have been the OS of choice, but greed did them in.

Apple more or less tried to do what unix folks failed at doing. They assumed the role of underdog and that of a rebel. At one point they had 25% of the pc market in the late 80s. However, they failed to get with the program when pc's dropped in price. Apple was charging for pc's in a way to where 50% of the price was pure profit (probably still do today). Even when intel PCs grabbed 95% market share... DOH! They hit rock bottom and had to be bailed out by Microsoft ....TWICE! ($150 million and M$ promising to make more M$ Office versions for Mac). They now re-brand themselves as the hip/trendy group that's embracing the internet/multimedia without restrictions and with flexibility. They're counting on that image to spill onto their PC sales. Their market share is still under 10%, but Mac OS X is most popular of the unix-based OSes, much to the chagrin of the linux camp. For as long as Apple prices their stuff as if they're Rolls Royce of the industry, the Wintel alliance shall still rule....

OrangeOne
01-05-2010, 04:39 PM
I would not word it that way. I would say that a Mac is a fixed type of car that works fine and has limited companies making parts for it. A pc is a car that you can tune to your liking and enhance however you please. I would also say that a pc can run just fine if you go with an 'out of the box' solution.

Fair counter. The truth is somewhere in the middle I guess :)

What I do in computing is consult, sell hardware/software, teach, and develop software. As for recommending custom-based pc's to business, this is not something I advocated in this thread.

Perhaps I misunderstood you... I read :

With PC's I know exactly what I'm getting and can build my own pc. I encourage my clients to do the same.

As meaning you did recommend that. From the rest of that paragraph, it seems we're on the same page.

Not sure. If so, it's still not an accurate statement other than the particular laptop used by that other poster.


With this I completely disagree. Every laptop i've owned (err... IBM * a lot, Toshibas, Dells, Asus, maybe others) has felt distinctly plastic and breakable compared to the Aluminium-shelled Apples.

Again, the original IBMs - that have ultra-hard plastic and some (more) metal in the chassis & frame - are the closest, but still creak and groan and click in ways that the apples just don't.

I assure you I'm quite awake. No one suggested other brands are 100% less expensive.


Was just a reference to the use of 'a fraction'. Moving on.

They are marketing windows 7 aggressively and it seems to have Apple on the defense now that Microsoft finally can get rid of the whole Vista fiasco. I have never installed Vista on any of my systems or for my clients. I was sticking with XP since it works just fine and takes up less resources. Windows 7 is something I am recommending currently.

Yeah, but until the manufacturers of SW & HW figure out how to unite around something more than an OS it'll always give Apple the marketing advantage. They're getting better - and have been since, well, Windows itself (Windows inside, Made for XP, etc etc) at working out some form of cohesive marketing, but it's obviously easier for Apple to be funky and whole-system driven.

The thing you don't understand is that the average consumer does not HAVE to build their own pc if they don't wish to do so. But it sure is nice to have that option and to be able to build a really solid system to your liking and still spend less than a Mac. My honest opinion. I have nothing against Mac. I just find they are overhyped.

I know you don't know me, but you honestly think I'm even capable of writing the last post and not understanding that? I have an IT degree, worked in it for 10 years, etc - I know my tongue-in-cheek 'kit-car' comments may have led you to believe other than the above, but 'tis true.

My point was more driving to the fact that with PCs, in terms of hardware and software, too often one has to 'lift the lid'. Delve to deep. Get too technical. It's fine, *I* don't mind it, but thesedays, for the first time ever**, I now recommend macs to joe consumer, or his mum, or friend.

**Why do I now recommend Apple as opposed to never before?

a. 'Apple tax' is lower than at any point in history
b. I've worked in an (smaller) office with non-IT people for the first time in ages, and I've seen the struggle that PCs can present to joe consumer, or joe user. Back in corporate-land, there was never a problem, as there was always tech support for them, and solid Builds to keep things ok.

OrangeOne
01-05-2010, 04:53 PM
So much focus in this thread on Mac "cost" being the big issue.

Thoughts:

a. As I mentioned above, "Apple Tax" (diff in between what you pay for an apple to a PC of similar spec) is, in my humble opinion, lower than at any time in history.

b. The cost of a computer for most people over it's lifetime, and certainly professional people, is very, very low anyways. Remarkably low. Almost Irrelevant.

$2000 gets a 15 Macbook Pro OR a 27inch iMac with the works or thereabouts? That'll do you for some time. Let's be very conservative and say 2. Which is $1000 a year. Which is...peanuts for the capability it gives you.

More importantly, once we realise the cost of a computer is almost nothing, the mac-PC cost difference IS nothing! Lets assume you save $600 on a PC system that's equivalent. Which is $5 a week. I'd (personally) pay that difference just for the design, but then when you factor in the screen panel quality and build quality (build quality being mostly relevant to the laptop)....it's an easy choice.

What am I saying? Cost...pretty much irrelevant. Other factors maybe, but cost...pretty much irrelevant.

(I suppose the above may not apply in the specific case of people wanting gaming machines.... but that is something that's hardly ever in my thought-space).

soyizgood
01-05-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm debating how to replace my G4-400 mac that's been my home server the past 4 years. Has a secondary 80GB drive and an external 250GB drive. It works fine, but the motherboard is 10 years old and it's working despite using mixed pairs of SDRAM and running on the original 20GB drive. I had it running off of an unlimited license of Mac OS 10.3 server. It can run for months without rebooting, but it has had plenty of patches to apply as well. Despite the slow speed, it functions as a file/dhcp/dns server as well as a primary domain controller.

My choices are down to a network attached storage device (have one, but I don't like the WEAK security it comes with), buying another used Mac (not sure if I want a G5 but it's cheaper than an intel-based Mac), or a whitebox PC to run linux or freebsd. Windows home server is out of the question because I want more than share-level security even though I can get a new system with it for under $300. My network manager at work has been raving about open filer, so I might try that out with linux and see how that works.

SuperFly
01-05-2010, 05:36 PM
I use a windows at my house but my school uses Macs. My PC is old but it runs like semi-new because it's so customizable; I have a whole set of protocols I can use to keep my computer from becoming junk. The Macs are brand new and they run faster but the problem with them is that they're so difficult to customize (and it's not because my account is not an admin.) They have a good OS but they don't allow the user to really customize their system.

Bottom line: If you are an advanced user who knows what he's doing when he enters the control panel, use a PC. If you're a computing noob or someone who doesn't need the ability to make computer customizations, get a Mac. It all comes down to what you need.

35ft6
01-05-2010, 07:41 PM
I researched Apple forums and apparently it can't be done. But hey I'll take you up on your offer. If you have the steps, let me know.You're trying to create a home network?I've worked exclusively in the anti-virus field and can tell you that viruses have nothing to do with open source code.What sentinel said is not true, then? Exploits aren't identified faster by people around the world when it's open source?Are you seriously trying to suggest that a Mac is an Audi and a PC is a Ford. I see that the marketing campaign has really affected you.I owned a Mac long before the marketing became a huge topic of conversation. I'm basing my opinions on using both systems for years and years, and for some of those years, both every day for months at a time.On the contrary. With PC's I know exactly what I'm getting and can build my own pc. I encourage my clients to do the same. With Macs you are stuck with whatever hardware you get in a particular model. Most people don't want to build their own computers.I don't know what kind of pc you put together but you obviously have never seen one of my systems.Thanks, Dr. Obvious.I choose good components (case, ps, m/b etc) and they look and feel really professional and solid.Talking about the casing.A well built pc will look and feel solid and not creak or click or make weird noises. And the price is still hundreds below a comparable Mac. So just avoid the el cheapo bargain basement components and you'll be fine.Again, most people don't want to build their own computers any more than they want to build their own kit cars. They just want to take it home, plug it in, and have it work.I would say the marketing is just marketing with its usual attempt to mislead. Just like a beer ad that shows people partying and having a great time.What's the Mac equivalent to a beer ad? And what specific Mac claim do you think is misleading?Mac has successfully managed to link their products with 'hip and cool' and 'different'. That is quite a coup that has helped their bottom line and stock price tremendouslyCan't argue with that. But it's still a great computer. A lot of PC's have tried to be hip, too, but with less success. The Dell "you're getting a Dell, dude" was okay for a while. Now they have the little Asian girl, and the commercials where PC users are more authentic than Mac people. Who cares? I'm basing my comments on how the computer performs. Insofarasmuch as every company tries to create the most advantageous marketing campaign for their products as possible, not sure why Mac should be persecuted for coming up with a good one. Zune tried to be hip, too, but the product just didn't impress enough.
You really seem in love with anything that Apple makes. I would say that their media player is hyped and over priced. You can get equally good media players from other brands at a fraction of the price; but you won't be as 'cool' if you do. Like which ones? Dude, don't be so fixated on what I or any other Mac owner loves. You're just going to get all excited and it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.The whole purpose of grabbing a young market is because we humans tend to stick with what we know.Windows/PC's try that, too. Windows licenses its software to schools for free in some cases. Besides that, everybody knows that younger people are more likely to try new products. Why is Mac being singled out here?I know people that own 3 Toyota's and won't even go look at other brands. And I know a lot of people who buy Civic after Civic because it's reliable. On the other hand, every Ford my family's had was a lemon. Some products are more reliable than others.They got a Toyota years ago and they were happy with it so they just stuck with it and avoided the hassle of doing research. The same is true with other products including Apple products. This is why they are so aggressively trying to appeal to younger people.This doesn't even make sense really.
Interesting? You obviously didn't understand what I was saying. I'm saying computers are pieces of electronic components that run on software. They are 'alike' in that sense and can all fail at times. So to suggest that one is more fool-proof than another is just clever marketing. You have to look at individual models and components in a pc to make a claim for reliability.It's also the Windows OS.More than likely, I can sell you a solid power supply that will cost more than your el cheapo noisy pc's case, ps, and mainboard. Shop and compare and don't pay too much attention to ads and marketing. I'll stick to Macs if that's okay with you. I have no problems with it. If computers are just computers, then that shouldn't get you all excited. :)

So lets review: I said I was intrigued by a friend's Hackintosh, the OS is what I really love, the great design is a bonus... all companies try to go after the younger demographic, Mac just did it better... I've had a Mac for about 12 years, I don't care about the marketing, it's just a great computer...

topspin
01-05-2010, 08:21 PM
See my replies in blue:

You're trying to create a home network?
I have a network with shared drives; I just want to read and write to the shared drives with the Mac.

What sentinel said is not true, then? Exploits aren't identified faster by people around the world when it's open source?
When it comes to detection capabilities, youíre talking about anti virus companies having a solution to a known virus. The topic here was strictly the writing of the virus itself, if I understood correctly.



I owned a Mac long before the marketing became a huge topic of conversation. I'm basing my opinions on using both systems for years and years, and for some of those years, both every day for months at a time.
Iíd just stay away from those car type of generalizations. I have no idea what pc system youíre using in making that kind of analogy.

Most people don't want to build their own computers.
Right, and thatís why there are plenty of out-of-the-box systems that work really well for both PC and Mac. Itís still nice to have the option to customize though.

Thanks, Dr. Obvious.
Spare me your sarcasm.

Talking about the casing.Again, most people don't want to build their own computers any more than they want to build their own kit cars. They just want to take it home, plug it in, and have it work.
Again, there are out-of-the-box pcís that will suit those people. But as people get more experience and develop a specific need, they often want to upgrade parts. Itís nice to have that option.
What's the Mac equivalent to a beer ad? And what specific Mac claim do you think is misleading? Beer ads are classic examples of a Ďfeel goodí marketing campaign aimed to get you to associate a Ďgood timeí with their products. As for what is misleading about Mac ads, the answer is Ďplentyí but I will just give you a couple of examples to keep this short.
1.Itís not true that only stuffy-out-of-shape business men use pcís and that only younger hip ppl use Macs.
2.Itís not true that pcís crash as often as they suggest
3.The suggestion is often that viruses/spyware make pcís unusable. The reality is that pcís do just fine with the right antivirus/antispyware software and you often donít need to do anything at all to maintain that software
Can't argue with that. But it's still a great computer. A lot of PC's have tried to be hip, too, but with less success. The Dell "you're getting a Dell, dude" was okay for a while. Now they have the little Asian girl, and the commercials where PC users are more authentic than Mac people. Who cares? I'm basing my comments on how the computer performs. Insofarasmuch as every company tries to create the most advantageous marketing campaign for their products as possible, not sure why Mac should be persecuted for coming up with a good one. Zune tried to be hip, too, but the product just didn't impress enough.
Iím no more a fan of the Dell or pc marketing campaigns. But the topic here was about why Macís are gaining in popularity and marketing is a definite factor. This canít be denied.

Like which ones? Dude, don't be so fixated on what I or any other Mac owner loves. You're just going to get all excited and it doesn't really add anything to the discussion.
First of all, donít call me Dude, since that also does not add anything to this discussion. Secondly, Iím not fixated on anything. What does any of this have to do with what I wrote. It just detracts from a simple reality that other products work just fine.

Windows/PC's try that, too. Windows licenses its software to schools for free in some cases. Besides that, everybody knows that younger people are more likely to try new products. Why is Mac being singled out here? I donít know about singling them out. Itís just one of the factors that has helped them gain in popularity, which is the main topic of this thread.


And I know a lot of people who buy Civic after Civic because it's reliable. On the other hand, every Ford my family's had was a lemon. Some products are more reliable than others.
I donít know the reasoning behind your famliesí decision to stick with Ford. Maybe brand loyalty where loyalty does not seem merited? Iím not sure where youíre going with this. My point was that we often re-buy a product simply based on familiarity and not merit.

This doesn't even make sense really.
Sure it does; brand loyalty. See my previous reply.

It's also the Windows OS.
Absolutely. Without the software, the hardware is just cool to look at.

I'll stick to Macs if that's okay with you. I have no problems with it. If computers are just computers, then that shouldn't get you all excited. :)
Suit yourself. Oh and try not to invoke emotions on someone you canít see on the internet. Itís not Ďcoolí and you sure would not want to be uncool, would you?


So lets review: I said I was intrigued by a friend's Hackintosh, the OS is what I really love, the great design is a bonus... all companies try to go after the younger demographic, Mac just did it better... I've had a Mac for about 12 years, I don't care about the marketing, it's just a great computer...

In other words, the marketing ads worked on you.

OrangeOne
01-05-2010, 08:44 PM
But as people get more experience and develop a specific need, they often want to upgrade parts.

This reminds me of the way adding lead to frames is treated on these boards. People on here treat it as commonplace, necessary, sometimes it's even weird if you don't. I've seen people even word it as you did there, that it's a progression, that down the track you might want to add lead because people do.

It's a huuuge assumption by people that are exceptionally buried in a community. These boards represent an understandably tennis-centric community. You're talking from a way-too-IT-centric-place.

Most people do not add lead, not even 10% of players do. Most people do not modify their computers, probably not even 10 or 20% do, and if you took out RAM upgrades then you'd be under 10% there too.

In other words, the marketing ads worked on you.That was an incredibly cheap and invalid shot (especially for someone who requests no sarcasm), but i'll leave it to 35 to respond or not as it was to him....

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-05-2010, 08:51 PM
The only macs that i really like are the desktop G series. When you look at them from the side, opened, they do look cool and higher tech compared to other pc desktops. But the front looks bad and looks like a plain jane.


I still think pc's are better simply because you are not limited to what you can download.


People who cry about pc laptops probably should of bought a sony instead of compaq-hp etc.

edberg505
01-05-2010, 11:27 PM
The only macs that i really like are the desktop G series. When you look at them from the side, opened, they do look cool and higher tech compared to other pc desktops. But the front looks bad and looks like a plain jane.


I still think pc's are better simply because you are not limited to what you can download.


People who cry about pc laptops probably should of bought a sony instead of compaq-hp etc.

It doesn't matter, Apple laptops are head and shoulders above any PC laptop. That's just all there is to it. The only other laptop I would even consider buying outside of an Apple would be ASUS. That company really knows how to put together a laptop and their customer service doesn't completely ditch you when you are having problems.

equinox
01-05-2010, 11:59 PM
It's simple.

Take two identical guys using the same methods to pickup a girl and take her home for the night.

Next morning girl gets up and asks to use your computer to facebook.

Who you do think will get a return visit? PC or MAC guy?

99% Macintosh guy will score again.

OrangeOne
01-06-2010, 12:17 AM
It's simple.

Take two identical guys who using with the same methods to pickup a girl and take her home for the night.

Next morning girl gets up and asks to use your computer to facebook.

Who you do think will get a return visit? PC or MAC guy?

99% Macintosh guy will score again.

Post of the thread! (Primarily because it addresses the topic with the exact amount of seriousness it actually warrants ;))

mucat
01-06-2010, 10:13 AM
It's simple.

Take two identical guys using the same methods to pickup a girl and take her home for the night.

Next morning girl gets up and asks to use your computer to facebook.

Who you do think will get a return visit? PC or MAC guy?

99% Macintosh guy will score again.


This scenario is highly unlikely.

PC guys are living in the basement.
Mac guys are just not that into girl.

It is usually the guy who has both a mac and a PC and some fast cars, of course...

Mansewerz
01-06-2010, 01:34 PM
So macs are not good for gaming? Do they have decent enough graphics cards to play steam games (i'm not looking for the greatest experience, just some fun).

What about HD cards for HD movies/youtube, etc?


Finally, I want to update my computer with Windows 7. Do I really have to do a full backup of my harddrive?

onehandbh
01-06-2010, 01:36 PM
This scenario is highly unlikely.

PC guys are living in the basement.
Mac guys are just not that into girl.

It is usually the guy who has both a mac and a PC and some fast cars, of course...

But "indie" musician guy trumps them both. Even while playing in dive
bars in front of 5 people he still manages to have some groupies.

mucat
01-07-2010, 12:08 AM
But "indie" musician guy trumps them both. Even while playing in dive
bars in front of 5 people he still manages to have some groupies.

Ha ha, that is so true. I wouldn't know it myself using PC all my life. But I googled so I know it is true.

Mansewerz
01-07-2010, 01:58 PM
So macs are not good for gaming? Do they have decent enough graphics cards to play steam games (i'm not looking for the greatest experience, just some fun).

What about HD cards for HD movies/youtube, etc?


Finally, I want to update my computer with Windows 7. Do I really have to do a full backup of my harddrive?

bump?

10 chars

OrangeOne
01-07-2010, 02:11 PM
Interestingly, was watching TV last night when an ad came on from "Sony and Windows". Advertising, and trying to unite, Sony with Windows 7.

It was modern, funky, and reminded me of others I'd seen that were similar, but that I couldn't remember containing a h/w vendor, they were just W7.

Anyways - was interesting in the context of earlier discussion in this thread....

Talker
01-07-2010, 02:27 PM
I just dont understand why Macs have been so hyped lately. It just seems to me now that Macs are more or less just shiny toys people have to simply flaunt the fact that they can afford one. I don't see how one can justify $1100 for the entry level macs that have mediocre at best techinical specs while you can get good if not, great laptops at that price. These macs have last generation core 2 duo processors running at 2 ghz, while laptops at that same price have i7s and if you're lucky, have video cards like hd 4670s in them.

Do people really buy macs because of performace, or because it's just a stutus symbol and pretty to look at?

I've tried them both when starting out.
The windows was much easier to get things done on. And cheaper.
After a month on both I just stayed on the PC, everything seemed to work how I thought it should. Not so on the Mac, I would get stuck at times.

Most the computer guys I know use PC's too.

PC's can be put together using a vast array of components and modified to your requirements and how much you want to spend.

You can overclock the PC's easy, I don't know about the Macs though.

Mr. Blond
01-07-2010, 02:45 PM
The most amazing thing about this debate is to witness the people who are so swayed by advertising without even realizing it.

mucat
01-07-2010, 03:23 PM
So macs are not good for gaming? Do they have decent enough graphics cards to play steam games (i'm not looking for the greatest experience, just some fun).

What about HD cards for HD movies/youtube, etc?


Finally, I want to update my computer with Windows 7. Do I really have to do a full backup of my harddrive?

The problem with gaming on mac is drivers and DirectX, and because most of the games are written for windows. I don't know if it has been improved, I am sure people with mac experience here can tell you most about it. For gaming video card choice, one of the thing is it depends on the resolution of your current monitor, you want to have a video card powerful enough to display fluidly on your monitor. But video card are cheap nowadays, $100-150 will get you something goood.

As you HD video, it is all about you video card, most modern video cards has the ability to decode HD video using minimum cpu resource.

For upgrading OS, most people will suggest a fresh install. It really depends on your current OS. I heard people can upgrade from vista to win7 with no problem. But even that, I would still do a fresh install. So backup all the things you need.

Talker
01-07-2010, 03:54 PM
So macs are not good for gaming? Do they have decent enough graphics cards to play steam games (i'm not looking for the greatest experience, just some fun).

What about HD cards for HD movies/youtube, etc?


Finally, I want to update my computer with Windows 7. Do I really have to do a full backup of my harddrive?

Yep, a fresh install is recomended and a backup should be done. Once you learn to do this backup you should do it every once in awhile anyway.

Here's a good site for your purposes.

http://www.sevenforums.com/

and some other forums, if you feel the need. :)

http://forums.bit-tech.net/

http://techreport.com/forums/

Mansewerz
01-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Fresh install? I'm going from vista FYI.

What about just backing up my documents and pictures? I may need to invest in an external harddrive. How much do those run?

Talker
01-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Fresh install? I'm going from vista FYI.

What about just backing up my documents and pictures? I may need to invest in an external harddrive. How much do those run?

You don't have use a fresh install, but it's the most reliable way.
Just do your backup and use the upgrade from Vista to windows 7.
It should work but if it doesn't you already have your backup.

You can backup your documents and pictures to a thumb drive instead of an external drive, depending on how many there are and the total size. Thumb drives come in different sizes, maybe 32 GBytes would be big enough. Save your favorites too.

I'm not sure how much an external drive costs but you can use it for years if you buy one.