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afunbee
01-04-2010, 05:51 PM
I am going to start 3.5 mixed doubles. I have a two part question.

I prefer not to drill the lady at net or slam overhead to the lady. If opponents play this style, then I can adapt and do the same. However, rather than let opponent draw first blood, would it be appropriate to ask opponents if this is going to be level of play? I suppose it could backfire if I accidentally hit a hard one to the lady.

Second question: if you are male player and the opponent lady has the control and power to HIT the net person very hard (at the lady or guy at the net), do you also say its open season for the male to hit lady at the net or slam overheads at her?

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 05:57 PM
Aim your overheads at the open court or at a player's legs.

Aim your groundies wherever you think will win you a point.

I am a 3.5 lady, and 3.5 men hit at me (and past me!) all the time. Remember, I have a 3.5 male partner, so you will have to hit this shot at me off of his serve or groundstroke, so you might not hit the shot you need to hit to beat me. Be warned that a lot of women in mixed will play the net tight; if they get a racket on your ball, it will likely be a winner.

Cindysphinx
01-04-2010, 05:58 PM
Oh, and don't have a conversation with the opponents about how you all will play. If it's a competitive match, just go compete.

Ripper014
01-04-2010, 06:01 PM
There is no real right answer... mixed is a strange animal. Like most things in life you will have to find the path that best works for you... for many of us it is to stay off that path all together.

raiden031
01-04-2010, 07:38 PM
So you are going to ask the opponents for permission to hit the lady with the ball to make sure its ok? LOL.

Stop being a pansy and just hit the friggin ball.

Oh and if you can't win a tennis match without drilling your opponents, then you just plain suck and need to learn how to place the ball.

OrangePower
01-04-2010, 08:13 PM
So you are going to ask the opponents for permission to hit the lady with the ball to make sure its ok? LOL.

Stop being a pansy and just hit the friggin ball.

Oh and if you can't win a tennis match without drilling your opponents, then you just plain suck and need to learn how to place the ball.

Come on now, I'm sure the OP isn't literally talking about drilling the opponents... you should never aim overheads directly at the body of opponents whether it's mixed or not.

But sometimes it's a good play to hit an aggressive drive right at the net player, or go for a big flat first serve right to the body. For someone not used to playing mixed (and with some degree of male chivalry), it can be uncomfortable to do that against a woman.

To the OP: if you're going to play mixed league, you have to get over it, and play as if you were playing against two men. The women who play mixed league know what to expect. If you can't get yourself comfortable doing that, then your best option is to avoid mixed league entirely.

svlin
01-04-2010, 08:16 PM
I am going to start 3.5 mixed doubles. I have a two part question.

I prefer not to drill the lady at net or slam overhead to the lady. If opponents play this style, then I can adapt and do the same.

Whether you play mixed or female/men's only doubles, you really don't ever try to drill someone in the chest/face...generally I always try to hit to the weaker player whether its a woman or a man and I always aim at their feet or the open court on their side.

I've never understood why you would try to hit a flat bomb at someone at net because you will either hit it out or they will simply block it back. The probability of hitting a low skidding volley back on a drilled shot is much higher due to net clearance (if you are in the ready position) than trying to retrieve a topspin dipper at the feet. Besides, if you hit a good enough shot to their feet, you will set yourself up for a sitter in which you can put away into the open court.

ALten1
01-05-2010, 02:53 AM
IMO the match dictates the aggressiveness of play. I've played where the match starts off friendly and everyone is talking between change overs. Then a team starts losing because everything is going wrong for that team and right for the other team, frustration sets in and all of a sudden the mood of the game changes along with the shot selection.

On a seperate topic: Overhead put aways, I can't always control where I hit them, sometimes they go right toward a person and it's not always at there feet. I would estimate theres probably a six foot variance (three feet either direction of where I am aiming) as to where the ball will go. I always apologize afterwards, but a lot of times the people take it personally. Is the overhead something I will develop better placement with time?

ALten1
01-05-2010, 03:05 AM
Another question. I posted a story in another thread (biggest jerks) about being drilled at the net 3 or 4 times in a row by an opposing player. Kind of shots where if I would have just sat down below the net before he stroked it, the ball would have hit the back fence of the fly. A couple people commented that play was fine, trying to move me off the net. Now im reading comments on how that's not cool. Is this a play in doubles (mixed included) that I should use and not worry about it or as others have posted should I avoid doing it? Is there a time when it's acceptable to be the first to fire off a shot at the net person? Still learning the game and love the advice from the better players.

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 04:54 AM
On a seperate topic: Overhead put aways, I can't always control where I hit them, sometimes they go right toward a person and it's not always at there feet. I would estimate theres probably a six foot variance (three feet either direction of where I am aiming) as to where the ball will go. I always apologize afterwards, but a lot of times the people take it personally. Is the overhead something I will develop better placement with time?

I drilled my pal in the chest last week in clinic. Is the problem that I can't control my overheads? Am I wild? Did I want to intimidate her on purpose?

No. The lob went up, and I never once took my eyes off of it. I was consumed by the desire to not miss it, to reach it before it fell too low, to make good contact, to put it away. I was in the deuce court, so I wanted a nice angle crosscourt. I had no idea where she was when I hit the ball.

Oh, well. It happens. I apologized, but players who don't move back when a short lob goes up risk getting pegged.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 06:00 AM
Another question. I posted a story in another thread (biggest jerks) about being drilled at the net 3 or 4 times in a row by an opposing player. Kind of shots where if I would have just sat down below the net before he stroked it, the ball would have hit the back fence of the fly. A couple people commented that play was fine, trying to move me off the net. Now im reading comments on how that's not cool. Is this a play in doubles (mixed included) that I should use and not worry about it or as others have posted should I avoid doing it? Is there a time when it's acceptable to be the first to fire off a shot at the net person? Still learning the game and love the advice from the better players.

There's a fine line between legitimate strategy, and being a pr!ck. Its not always easy to say when you should or shouldn't do it. From my experience, everytime someone has hit a shot that hit me or nearly took my head off, they were very apologetic because that wasn't the intent. On this board however, many people say you have a right to take someone's head off and shouldn't feel apologetic because its a legitimate strategy.

If you're playing doubles and the net player is an ornament and not really very skilled, you don't really need to try to hit the ball right at them, but would be better to hit the ball past them or dip it low to their feet. If someone is aggressive at the net and giving you troubles, then it is more appropriate to blast one at them to show them you mean business.

I just find it rare that actually hitting at the net opponent is the best shot, because if they are in good position sometimes just an easy block is all they need to do. If I have the opportunity to really hit a basting shot, I'd rather take it for a winner.

Just use your best judgement.

blakesq
01-05-2010, 08:45 AM
I disagree with the below bolded statement. I aim overheads at the body of my opponent if the opponent crowds the net as I am going up for an overhead, like they are trying to force me to aim at a smaller portion of the court, wrong, I will aim for the center of his chest.

Come on now, I'm sure the OP isn't literally talking about drilling the opponents... you should never aim overheads directly at the body of opponents whether it's mixed or not.

But sometimes it's a good play to hit an aggressive drive right at the net player, or go for a big flat first serve right to the body. For someone not used to playing mixed (and with some degree of male chivalry), it can be uncomfortable to do that against a woman.

To the OP: if you're going to play mixed league, you have to get over it, and play as if you were playing against two men. The women who play mixed league know what to expect. If you can't get yourself comfortable doing that, then your best option is to avoid mixed league entirely.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 08:48 AM
I disagree with the below bolded statement. I aim overheads at the body of my opponent if the opponent crowds the net as I am going up for an overhead, like they are trying to force me to aim at a smaller portion of the court, wrong, I will aim for the center of his chest.

Only an idiot would crowd the net against an overhead. Unless we're talking a really pathetic overhead, don't you think?

Spokewench
01-05-2010, 08:50 AM
I agree with Orange Power, I make an attempt not to hit a person with an overhead. After all, it is an overhead, and you have time to direct it. If the opponent at net does not start to back up when they see an overhead going up, then they might get in the way. It is their responsibility to keep themselves safe. Otherwise, hit away - volley at the net person at their feet, away, whatever makes it work for you and the shot you are hitting. If I am playing mixed and the man doesn't shots at me at net and just lobs over my head, I will be quite disappointed!

ibeeskeef
01-05-2010, 08:55 AM
usually you can let the match dictate what needs to be done. If it is a serious, competitive match and you feel like you need to take some chances down the line by the female opponenet then you need to do it. Most matches that I find I feel guilty hitting at the woman are matches where the opponent is very weak and I don't need to hit it at her anway. I have had women that were scared of my shots on the court but I never hit a ball at them. There was no need to hit it at them because we were in control of the match anyway.

I treat my mixed matches like I treat my men's doubles matches. Everyone is fair game. I don't aim at people's chest or head but if I poach at the net I aim at the other net person's feet, man or woman. The woman is given a racket just like the man and she can use it accordingly.

One note: if you are forced to play with a very weak woman partner you may want to avoid hitting at the other team's woman simply because when the first ball goes at a woman from either side then all bets are off. If you need to protect your partner because she is weak then hitting it straight at their woman is a bad idea.

gameboy
01-05-2010, 09:54 AM
You guys are much better players than I if you have pin point control on your overheads. On most overheads, I am moving pretty hard from side to side or worse, moving back. I am concentrating on just getting the ball back (hopefully with some pace) and my aim is usually just one side of the court.

Unless it is an easy sitter right at the net, if a person gets hit, it is their own them fault.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 09:58 AM
You guys are much better players than I if you have pin point control on your overheads. On most overheads, I am moving pretty hard from side to side or worse, moving back. I am concentrating on just getting the ball back (hopefully with some pace) and my aim is usually just one side of the court.

Unless it is an easy sitter right at the net, if a person gets hit, it is their own them fault.

Yeah I mean in most cases I think if you nail your opponents with an overhead, you are probably nailing them on the backside.

I know I am talking mostly about what to do when you get a weak ball and are blasting a groundstroke.

Topaz
01-05-2010, 11:00 AM
There is no real right answer... mixed is a strange animal. Like most things in life you will have to find the path that best works for you... for many of us it is to stay off that path all together.

Quoted for truth! LOL

blakesq
01-05-2010, 11:38 AM
I guess I have played against idiots. I have also played against people who rush the net and stamp their feet as I am going up for an overhead. They also get a bullseye in the middle of their chest.

Only an idiot would crowd the net against an overhead. Unless we're talking a really pathetic overhead, don't you think?

CrispyFritters
01-05-2010, 11:56 AM
Steel your heart. Then rip that overhead at the net player - regardless of gender. Opponent should be giving some ground anyway to better cover the court or protect themselves.

Then...walk up to the net and say
"If you can't take the heat...get out of the box"
[growl]

OrangePower
01-05-2010, 02:01 PM
I guess I have played against idiots. I have also played against people who rush the net and stamp their feet as I am going up for an overhead. They also get a bullseye in the middle of their chest.

You need to find some new people to play with then. What you're describing is just being an *** and I wouldn't voluntarily play with people like that.

My original comment was in the context of 'normal' people, where the opponent is not trying to distract you as you are going for the overhead. In this case if you have the option to hit it to their feet or away from them for the winner but yet you prefer to drill them in the body, then you're just being a jerk.

Cindysphinx
01-05-2010, 02:05 PM
^If someone rushed the net and stamped their feet as I was going for an overhead, I wouldn't even notice it. Seriously, I have a lot going on when it is time to hit an overhead. This is especially so given that my overhead was until recently on life support. It is very frail, my overhead.

justinmadison
01-08-2010, 02:48 PM
There's a fine line between legitimate strategy, and being a pr!ck. Its not always easy to say when you should or shouldn't do it. From my experience, everytime someone has hit a shot that hit me or nearly took my head off, they were very apologetic because that wasn't the intent. On this board however, many people say you have a right to take someone's head off and shouldn't feel apologetic because its a legitimate strategy.


I think hitting over heads directly at the net man can definitely be a legitimate strategy

I played a men's doubles match where the opposing team had very effective lobs and were driving us crazy. Occasionally they would hit one short and we would hit into the open court, but over all they were beating us with the strategy.

After assessing the situation I decided to hit all short lobs directly at the net man. They were not happy with this plan and asked me to stop hitting at the net man. I told them that their lobs were winning the match and I did not want them to lob. I told them that I was trying to make the lob a more risky shot by pummeling the net man. This strategy would limit the area available to hit into and thus would reduce their lobs effectiveness. My advice to them was to run off the court if the lob was short or to stop lobbing.

Eventually the net person started playing deeper and deeper and we turned the match around and won

OrangePower
01-08-2010, 03:29 PM
I think hitting over heads directly at the net man can definitely be a legitimate strategy

I played a men's doubles match where the opposing team had very effective lobs and were driving us crazy. Occasionally they would hit one short and we would hit into the open court, but over all they were beating us with the strategy.

After assessing the situation I decided to hit all short lobs directly at the net man. They were not happy with this plan and asked me to stop hitting at the net man. I told them that their lobs were winning the match and I did not want them to lob. I told them that I was trying to make the lob a more risky shot by pummeling the net man. This strategy would limit the area available to hit into and thus would reduce their lobs effectiveness. My advice to them was to run off the court if the lob was short or to stop lobbing.

Eventually the net person started playing deeper and deeper and we turned the match around and won

Sorry I think you are completely in the wrong to do this. Unless you are a pro or college player, in which case maybe anything goes. But in recreation league or tournament play I think your behavior is an over-reaction and you could make the same point without taking the chance of hurting someone.

Just consider if you hit an overhead into your opponent's face and fractured an eye socket. Is it worth it?

Also, your strategy could easily lead to escalation on the court - if I was your opponent in this case, at some point I would start trying to peg you or your partner at any opportunity, and things could escalate from there.

Unless you're a pro... it's just not worth it.

mctennis
01-08-2010, 03:45 PM
Aim your overheads at the open court or at a player's legs.

Aim your groundies wherever you think will win you a point.

I am a 3.5 lady, and 3.5 men hit at me (and past me!) all the time. Remember, I have a 3.5 male partner, so you will have to hit this shot at me off of his serve or groundstroke, so you might not hit the shot you need to hit to beat me. Be warned that a lot of women in mixed will play the net tight; if they get a racket on your ball, it will likely be a winner.

Great reply. Seems this question gets asked a lot at the club I belong to when we start playing mixed doubles. I could not have said it better.

Cindysphinx
01-08-2010, 04:14 PM
I think hitting over heads directly *at* the net man can definitely be a legitimate strategy



What do you mean by "at"?

If the net person stays at net when I am hitting an overhead, I am very likely to hit it in their general direction. If I hit it to the deep player, she might be able to play it. I aim at the court next to the net person nearest their alley (because if I am near them toward the middle the deep player may get it back). I always aim down.

Where I tend to peg people is if they are in one spot when the lob goes up but then they start moving a tiny bit, right into the place I had decided to try to hit.

OrangePower
01-08-2010, 04:26 PM
I think hitting over heads directly at the net man can definitely be a legitimate strategy

What do you mean by "at"?

I was trying to make the lob a more risky shot by pummeling the net man

I think the 'at' here can be interpreted as 'trying to inflict bodily harm to'

svlin
01-08-2010, 05:03 PM
After assessing the situation I decided to hit all short lobs directly at the net man. They were not happy with this plan and asked me to stop hitting at the net man. I told them that their lobs were winning the match and I did not want them to lob. I told them that I was trying to make the lob a more risky shot by pummeling the net man. This strategy would limit the area available to hit into and thus would reduce their lobs effectiveness. My advice to them was to run off the court if the lob was short or to stop lobbing.

Eventually the net person started playing deeper and deeper and we turned the match around and won

Although I would not do this in a match, I agree that this can be a strategy to turn the match around. They give you a racket for a reason, if you can't defend yourself, why are you standing at the net when a short lob is thrown up?

As a tennis player you have to realize the consequences of your actions, and this includes throwing up a short lob and standing at the net to face it...that just isn't smart IMO and your probability of retrieving the overhead are less than if you retreated to the baseline.

Steady Eddy
01-08-2010, 06:19 PM
What if the opponent is a man before the overhead, but not after? :confused:

gameboy
01-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Sorry I think you are completely in the wrong to do this. Unless you are a pro or college player, in which case maybe anything goes. But in recreation league or tournament play I think your behavior is an over-reaction and you could make the same point without taking the chance of hurting someone.

Just consider if you hit an overhead into your opponent's face and fractured an eye socket. Is it worth it?

Also, your strategy could easily lead to escalation on the court - if I was your opponent in this case, at some point I would start trying to peg you or your partner at any opportunity, and things could escalate from there.

Unless you're a pro... it's just not worth it.

I completely disagree.

I think this approach is the one you should take for a social match, but if you are playing in a league or tournament, this is a completely legit way to play in my opinion.

Why does the guy hitting the overhead have to consider possible injury? Why can't the guy hitting the lob think about what he is doing? Why can't the guy playing the net think about it?

If it is not worth it for the guy hitting the overhead, then it is not worth it for the guy hitting a weak lob and the guy standing by the net while a weak lob is served.

If you are really worried about getting hurt, play away from the net, and don't serve up sitters that people can smash. And if you see a sitter, turn around. I don't think your eyesocket is going to fracture looking at the back the court away from the ball.

I don't understand why it only falls on one side to play safe.

JHBKLYN
01-09-2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry I think you are completely in the wrong to do this. Unless you are a pro or college player, in which case maybe anything goes. But in recreation league or tournament play I think your behavior is an over-reaction and you could make the same point without taking the chance of hurting someone.

Unless you're a pro... it's just not worth it.

I have to disagree with this also. Thought not a nice thing to do but totally legal. But not sure what their opponent is thinking but if someone is slamming a short lob, if you don't move back or concede the point, you're either stupid or stupidly-brave. But if it were me, I wouldn't slam it directly at the guy, I would hit into the open court.

dlk
01-09-2010, 02:26 PM
I just wish I could aim my slams well enough to place the ball where I want it, forget the decision, I never get there.

kelawai
01-09-2010, 03:17 PM
"It is their responsibility to keep themselves safe. Otherwise, hit away - volley at the net person at their feet, away, whatever makes it work for you and the shot you are hitting. If I am playing mixed and the man doesn't shots at me at net and just lobs over my head, I will be quite disappointed!"



I don't understand, be gentle to the opponents. When I have an overhead, and both of them charge in about 5 foots to the net and leave me no room to hit. The question is, do I have to lob, so not to hit any of them or hit my shot out so I don't have to hurt neither of them.

I would say I am wrong if I blast the shot at them while both were retreating to the baseline and play defense. If both opponent charges to the net (show no respect), I have every right to win the point with any legal shot. It's silly when you can put the shot away instead of playing defense for trying to be a gentleman.

If I have frightened or my shot brush off the net person, I will tell him or her, blame it on your partner for set it up for me.

One last comment. If I not good to play at fast pace level, don't play, if I am not good playing at 5.0 level, don't play. Play at your comfortable level and enjoy the game.

Cindysphinx
01-09-2010, 03:19 PM
I completely disagree.

Why does the guy hitting the overhead have to consider possible injury? Why can't the guy hitting the lob think about what he is doing? Why can't the guy playing the net think about it?

To answer the question . . .

The guy who throws up the weak lob isn't *intentionally* throwing up a weak, smashable lob. He is trying to hit the baseline.

The guy at the net isn't *intentionally* standing there, hoping to be hit. He is either inattentive or ignorant about positioning.

If you aim your overhead at the net player's head, you are doing something intentionally. So yeah, I think you have the responsibility not to intentionally hurt someone.

OrangePower
01-09-2010, 07:57 PM
To gameboy: see Cindy's response above, which is right on the money. I'm not talking about someone who is deliberately positioning themselves right in front of you as you are taking the overhead, or who refuses to turn around. We're talking about someone who is simply caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you have option of winning the point by hitting at their feet or away from them, or by pegging them. Why would you choose to peg them and risk causing them serious injury?

I have to disagree with this also. Thought not a nice thing to do but totally legal. But not sure what their opponent is thinking but if someone is slamming a short lob, if you don't move back or concede the point, you're either stupid or stupidly-brave. But if it were me, I wouldn't slam it directly at the guy, I would hit into the open court.

JHBKLYN, you say you disagree but then you go on to agree :-) Of course it's totally legal - I never said otherwise. But like you say it isn't nice. And like you say, you would not peg the guy directly, you would hit into the open court. So actually we agree... :-)

Geezer Guy
01-09-2010, 09:08 PM
I am going to start 3.5 mixed doubles. I have a two part question.

I prefer not to drill the lady at net or slam overhead to the lady. If opponents play this style, then I can adapt and do the same. However, rather than let opponent draw first blood, would it be appropriate to ask opponents if this is going to be level of play? I suppose it could backfire if I accidentally hit a hard one to the lady.

Second question: if you are male player and the opponent lady has the control and power to HIT the net person very hard (at the lady or guy at the net), do you also say its open season for the male to hit lady at the net or slam overheads at her?

I don't play much mixed doubles, but I have played some. You can take this for whatever you think it's worth.

First: Most people playing USTA mixed doubles consider it serious business. This is not "social" doubles, this is "competitive" doubles. The players are going to "go after" the weaker opponent, and they're going to assume that's the woman until proven otherwise. No, I don't think you should ask your opponents ahead of time how serious they're going to play. You should just assume they're going to play to win in every way within the rules & code. At the same time, in my (usually unpopular) opinion, the guy should still attempt to be as much of a gentleman as possible.

Second: In most cases, a 3.5 gal is not going to have the offensive power to be hitting her opponents hard and at will, and she will not have the defensive skills to protect herself from a 3.5 male that slamming overheads at her. I cannot in any stretch of my imagination think of a situation where this would be acceptable.

gameboy
01-10-2010, 05:36 PM
That is TOTAL BS!


The guy who throws up the weak lob isn't *intentionally* throwing up a weak, smashable lob. He is trying to hit the baseline.


I don't care if you are doing intentionally anything, the result is what it is. If you are afraid of unintentionally serving up an easy overhead, then don't try to lob. If you keep lobbing, you are going to serve up a sitter every now and then. You already know that and you have assumed that that is worth the risk. I am going to make sure that that risk is higher than you believe.


The guy at the net isn't *intentionally* standing there, hoping to be hit. He is either inattentive or ignorant about positioning.


So let me get this straight. I am running and jumping to get overhead hoping that I can make it go where I want it to go. And while I am doing that, I am supposed to figure out and read somebody's mind on whether or not they are standing there for one reason or another.

Hitting the guy is a pretty good way to get him to pay attention and be attentative. You are doing that guy a service.


If you aim your overhead at the net player's head, you are doing something intentionally. So yeah, I think you have the responsibility not to intentionally hurt someone.

I just don't get you Cindy. You say you are 3.5 women, and you are telling me you can pinpoint your overhead to a size of somebody's head. If you can do that you are a MUCH better player than I. Even with a sitter, I would have a hard time hitting a target size of human body, let alone a head.

When people hit at someone, they are not intentionally trying to hurt anybody. They are trying to win a point. Hitting at someone is a good way to make sure that happens.

I don't understand why a guy who serving up the lob and the guy at the net are not doing ANYTHING "intentionally" but the guy at the net is "intentionally" trying to hurt someone.

Smashing an overhead at someone is a valid doubles tactic. It is not something I am going to do in a mixed doubles at a woman player, but it is something I will definitely do if necessary in a male doubles match.

precision2b
01-11-2010, 11:05 AM
Sorry I think you are completely in the wrong to do this. Unless you are a pro or college player, in which case maybe anything goes. But in recreation league or tournament play I think your behavior is an over-reaction and you could make the same point without taking the chance of hurting someone.

Just consider if you hit an overhead into your opponent's face and fractured an eye socket. Is it worth it?

Also, your strategy could easily lead to escalation on the court - if I was your opponent in this case, at some point I would start trying to peg you or your partner at any opportunity, and things could escalate from there.

Unless you're a pro... it's just not worth it.

I agree OrangePower

What if the opponent is a man before the overhead, but not after? :confused:
And talks with a much higher pitch…. LOL!!! Very funny Steady Eddy

JoelDali
01-11-2010, 11:27 AM
I beemed a guy really hard last week with a forehand volley, I didn't even try to hit him but it was square in the chest and pretty hard. He was pretty ****ed off. I felt bad because it was totally not my intention but appeared that way. I will aim for your legs and feet but never above the gooch.

:)

Cindysphinx
01-11-2010, 11:32 AM
That is TOTAL BS! [snip post]


You do what you gotta do.

raiden031
01-11-2010, 11:59 AM
I don't understand, be gentle to the opponents. When I have an overhead, and both of them charge in about 5 foots to the net and leave me no room to hit. The question is, do I have to lob, so not to hit any of them or hit my shot out so I don't have to hurt neither of them.


If people actually do this against your overhead, then your overhead is probably not very potent.

My overhead isn't the most reliable, but I hit it just hard enough that if someone hits a floater and I've got my overhead coming, even my best opponents will turn their back if they don't have time to back up into a more defensive position.

So really there's not much to the overhead situation. 1) If the opponents can, they will back up and assume a defensive position and that means you can safely crush the overhead anywhere with a minimal risk of hitting them. 2) If the opponents are sitting ducks, then they should have enough sense to turn their back and get out of the way which also means they aren't likely to get tagged. 3) If they are stupid, they will stand right there as if your overhead is not a threat, in which case its fair game.

Perry the Platypus
01-11-2010, 12:00 PM
In my opinions, control-able overheads should be fenced, hit to the open court, or as a last resort at the opponents feet. I prefer to fence them, just bounce it at a sharp angle in the opponents service box and have it bounce over the fence. It that hits them it is pretty much their own fault..... If I am falling back to hit the overhead behind my own service box then I'm not paying any attention to where my opponent is due to the higher degree of difficulty involved in hitting the shot. They have a responsibility to pay attention.

In any event, intentionally hitting somebody above the feet with an overhead is bush league.

Groundstrokes are a whole different story. Since many ladies like to sit on top of the net, it is not unusual for me to rip a forehand at them to back them up (it does work). I would rather have them off of the net so I can dip balls at their feet and then approach.

LafayetteHitter
01-11-2010, 12:36 PM
I would be careful at trying to adjust strokes based on who you are hitting to in a competitive match. Also if you back off the strokes when hitting to the female don't get offended if they blast an overhead right at you.

ALten1
01-11-2010, 04:18 PM
I think its genetically encoded in male dna to let up a little against a female. We are taught since birth to be polite, honor, and cherish until death.....sorry got carried away.

Also if someone hits me with a tennis ball (worse was being hit in the throat at close range, couldn't swallow for a few minutes) and they apologize, then let it go. If they don't apologize, well then it's "own" like chicken bone. IMO most people don't try to peg their opponents especially the women. I would imagine most women don't want to go toe to toe with a guy.

Cindysphinx
01-11-2010, 04:39 PM
I think its genetically encoded in male dna to let up a little against a female. We are taught since birth to be polite, honor, and cherish until death.....sorry got carried away.


Yeah, and it is encoded plenty deep.

I was at mixed practice yesterday. Loved my new teammates, one of whom is a wonderful 3.5 guy. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meed. But I kind of noticed something.

When he served to the male, it was a smokin' good serve. Good enough to force some errors off of the male opponent. When he served to the female opponent (who was clearly having a devil of a time returning serve in her first mixed match ever), he hit considerably softer serve on both first and second.

After a bit of this, I actually said something. I said he didn't have to hit overheads or groundstrokes or even volleys to the woman if he didn't feel comfortable, but he did have to hit his best serve. Without those free points, we'd be digging ourselves into a hole needlessly. He did ramp it up, but still not as much as he could.

Come on, 3.5 fellas. Your serves are good, OK. But they simply aren't powerful enough to hurt a woman standing three feet behind the service line [edit: Whoops, I meant "baseline"]. So what's up with being reluctant to hit a good serve to the woman?

Ripper014
01-11-2010, 04:41 PM
Yeah, and it is encoded plenty deep.

I was at mixed practice yesterday. Loved my new teammates, one of whom is a wonderful 3.5 guy. Nicest guy you'd ever want to meed. But I kind of noticed something.

When he served to the male, it was a smokin' good serve. Good enough to force some errors off of the male opponent. When he served to the female opponent (who was clearly having a devil of a time returning serve in her first mixed match ever), he hit considerably softer serve on both first and second.

After a bit of this, I actually said something. I said he didn't have to hit overheads or groundstrokes or even volleys to the woman if he didn't feel comfortable, but he did have to hit his best serve. Without those free points, we'd be digging ourselves into a hole needlessly. He did ramp it up, but still not as much as he could.

Come on, 3.5 fellas. Your serves are good, OK. But they simply aren't powerful enough to hurt a woman standing three feet behind the service line. So what's up with being reluctant to hit a good serve to the woman?

My mother taught me better..???

Fedace
01-11-2010, 04:44 PM
Have you guys seen a women player that acts Macho ??? this is kind of annoying.... the other day, it was just a fun Mixed doubles match but this woman thought she could handle anything that i can throw at her,,,so she would stand in tight at the net while i was lining up a overhead..... I can hit the overhead pretty hard,,,so hard she probably would not see it coming at that close range.......
So i hit one and it misses her by 2 feet,,,,,i was surprised as heck to see she didn't back up........so i said please back up if you see someone lining up a easy overhead.......then she said..." Oh no,,,that is ok,,i don't mind being hit." LOL

Does this mean i can hit this woman and not feel bad ??

LafayetteHitter
01-11-2010, 04:51 PM
I think Cindy made a good point. Most of the female players I play against get offended when you back off. They are out there for a challenge as well.

Fedace
01-11-2010, 04:52 PM
I think Cindy made a good point. Most of the female players I play against get offended when you back off. They are out there for a challenge as well.

Yea right.,,,and if you hit one of them,,,you are the Devil's Spawn.....:evil:

ALten1
01-11-2010, 05:07 PM
I am guilty of never hitting my flat serve at the woman. I only hit the spin serves to them. Two exceptions: 1. My partner tells me to quit letting up and 2. The other male serves to my partner hard.

kelawai
01-11-2010, 05:10 PM
If people actually do this against your overhead, then your overhead is probably not very potent.

My overhead isn't the most reliable, but I hit it just hard enough that if someone hits a floater and I've got my overhead coming, even my best opponents will turn their back if they don't have time to back up into a more defensive position.

So really there's not much to the overhead situation. 1) If the opponents can, they will back up and assume a defensive position and that means you can safely crush the overhead anywhere with a minimal risk of hitting them. 2) If the opponents are sitting ducks, then they should have enough sense to turn their back and get out of the way which also means they aren't likely to get tagged. 3) If they are stupid, they will stand right there as if your overhead is not a threat, in which case its fair game.


Yes, I have inconsistent overhead and hate that shot till now. I played some guys, not Mixed Doubles not long ago. When the his lobs is short, believe me, he charged to the net. And his partner is a sitting duck. Don't know what coming next. And I have to admit, I have no idea where my overhead shot will land also. I hate to hit anyone with any intention or me and my partner get hit. But sometimes, you do what you have to do.

You don't want to hear the opponents say something like, I come to the net and rattle him, laugh at you while walking away, when you lose the point on Short Lob? You let your partner down too.

equinox
01-11-2010, 05:24 PM
Your partner didn't want to hurt his shoulder.
Men are plenty capable of pegging from a serve.
A flat serve into the body or more likely kicker into the head works wonders.

No one needs to get hurt in doubles.

Don't play the net.
Be attentive.
Use your racquet.
Turn your back and move towards the tram lines.

Basketballers don't cry when a pass goes wrong a hits them in the nose. Nether do footballers when they miss a catch and dislocate a finger.

Getting hit is an accepted part of playing doubles.
It's time tennis players stop being pussies suck it up.

Topaz
01-11-2010, 05:34 PM
I am guilty of never hitting my flat serve at the woman. I only hit the spin serves to them.

Personally, I will have a much harder time returning your spin serve than your flat serve.

-Topaz, a 5'4" 3.5 woman

Cindysphinx
01-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Personally, I will have a much harder time returning your spin serve than your flat serve.

-Topaz, a 5'4" 3.5 woman

+1. Alten, a good spin serve is fine and very effective. A push serve is not.

As for Equinox, I feel very, very confident that he couldn't hurt me with his serve, and he probably couldn't hit me with it either. The ego on some guys. Sheez.

As for my dear, wonderful 3.5 teammate, I did my best to convince him not to play around with the li'l lady. When we switched partners, I was in the ad court, and he hit a very soft serve to me. I ran around my BH and hit my FH as hard as I possibly could, with no regard whatever for whether I missed or tore my shoulder out of the socket. I think my eyes actually might have been closed. He couldn't return it. Next time he served to me, same thing. Third time, he hit the bloody serve correctly, and we were cool after that.

Serve cupcakes out of a misplaced sense of chivalry, fellas, and you just might get broken.

Fedace
01-11-2010, 06:33 PM
Women handle flat serves much better since that is all they see. If you hit a big kick serve, they totally whiff at it....

ALten1
01-11-2010, 06:43 PM
Personally, I will have a much harder time returning your spin serve than your flat serve.

-Topaz, a 5'4" 3.5 woman

I respectfully disagree. I am sure you are a great player but a fast flat serve is hard to handle for most people. Most women stand on the service line and not three feet behind it. And when they do step back three feet behind the service line the court opens up a lot. I'm 6'5" and trouble getting flat serves when standing that far back.

Topaz
01-11-2010, 06:47 PM
I respectfully disagree. I am sure you are a great player but a fast flat serve is hard to handle for most people. Most women stand on the service line and not three feet behind it. And when they do step back three feet behind the service line the court opens up a lot. I'm 6'5" and trouble getting flat serves when standing that far back.

And as a woman who actually plays, I must respectfully disagree. You've had both me and Cindy say the same thing here.

And if the women in your area are standing on the service line to receive serve...then somebody needs to import some new pros!!! (or, did you mean baseline? ;) )

I realize that stepping back opens up the angle, but you gotta hit the angle first!!!

Again, the women who play mixed in my experience have no problem blocking back a flat serve. Spin it over our heads though...and we can't freakin' reach it!

Ok, I'm now having flashbacks to one mixed match where I didn't return one serve the whole match...they all spun over my head, no matter where I stood!

*shivering*

Fedace
01-11-2010, 06:49 PM
if anyone including a guy stands on the service line, all you have to do is hit a decent slice out wide and it is an ACE everytime......

raiden031
01-11-2010, 06:50 PM
When he served to the male, it was a smokin' good serve. Good enough to force some errors off of the male opponent. When he served to the female opponent (who was clearly having a devil of a time returning serve in her first mixed match ever), he hit considerably softer serve on both first and second.

...

Come on, 3.5 fellas. Your serves are good, OK. But they simply aren't powerful enough to hurt a woman standing three feet behind the service line. So what's up with being reluctant to hit a good serve to the woman?

It is inexcusable to double fault against the woman in mixed. I hit almost exclusively spin serves against the woman unless they prove that they can eat these alive. Usually for me they are good enough to get the job done, so I don't bother with my bigger first serves. Alot of guys can eat my kick serves up so I take the additional risk against them.

raiden031
01-11-2010, 06:51 PM
I respectfully disagree. I am sure you are a great player but a fast flat serve is hard to handle for most people. Most women stand on the service line and not three feet behind it. And when they do step back three feet behind the service line the court opens up a lot. I'm 6'5" and trouble getting flat serves when standing that far back.

I am officially the only person on this board who finds it harder to return a hard flat serve than a kick serve.

raiden031
01-11-2010, 06:54 PM
Women handle flat serves much better since that is all they see. If you hit a big kick serve, they totally whiff at it....

They might be used to seeing 60mph flat serves, but not 100+ flat serves...big difference. You can block them in singles (maybe), but in doubles the block will often get poached.

Fedace
01-11-2010, 07:22 PM
They might be used to seeing 60mph flat serves, but not 100+ flat serves...big difference. You can block them in singles (maybe), but in doubles the block will often get poached.

Right,,, 100mph flat serves will go for an ACE. but the woman i played last weekend was 4.5 or so. She had no problem with 80mph flat serves. but when i hit the same serve with heavy Kick on it, she had problems. I didn't hit 100mph bombs since it made me feel like a bad guy.
and yes, the block return will get poached, but i played with 4.0 woman that didn't like poaching so she would block the return back with no worries..

Cindysphinx
01-11-2010, 07:30 PM
It is inexcusable to double fault against the woman in mixed. I hit almost exclusively spin serves against the woman unless they prove that they can eat these alive. Usually for me they are good enough to get the job done, so I don't bother with my bigger first serves. Alot of guys can eat my kick serves up so I take the additional risk against them.

I didn't say you should DF. Hit your good fast swing with insane spin on your first serve. Doesn't matter what kind of spin. Just lots of it. If you miss, hit your regular second serve. If you push the ball in like you just had shoulder surgery because you are afraid of DF . . . dang, even I don't do that in mixed.

And Topaz is right. If you just serve flat and fast, lots of 3.5-4.0 women will stick a racket out and block it back. Trust us. Spin wins. And your serve percentage will be higher than serving as though Nadal is on the other side of the net.

Cindy -- who had a hideous time returning this old guy's spin serves even though they were only going about 20 mph because they had so much spin

Cindysphinx
01-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Have you guys seen a women player that acts Macho ??? this is kind of annoying.... the other day, it was just a fun Mixed doubles match but this woman thought she could handle anything that i can throw at her,,,so she would stand in tight at the net while i was lining up a overhead..... I can hit the overhead pretty hard,,,so hard she probably would not see it coming at that close range.......
So i hit one and it misses her by 2 feet,,,,,i was surprised as heck to see she didn't back up........so i said please back up if you see someone lining up a easy overhead.......then she said..." Oh no,,,that is ok,,i don't mind being hit." LOL

Does this mean i can hit this woman and not feel bad ??

Please don't insult men by calling stupid doubles play "macho." She was just a dummy.

ALten1
01-11-2010, 07:36 PM
And as a woman who actually plays, I must respectfully disagree. You've had both me and Cindy say the same thing here.

And if the women in your area are standing on the service line to receive serve...then somebody needs to import some new pros!!! (or, did you mean baseline? ;) )

I realize that stepping back opens up the angle, but you gotta hit the angle first!!!

Again, the women who play mixed in my experience have no problem blocking back a flat serve. Spin it over our heads though...and we can't freakin' reach it!

Ok, I'm now having flashbacks to one mixed match where I didn't return one serve the whole match...they all spun over my head, no matter where I stood!

*shivering*


I meant the line that is right before the fence. And I would love to wink back at you but I don't know where to look.

Raiden031, I'll take a spin serve any day over a fast flat serve!

Ripper014
01-11-2010, 07:49 PM
And as a woman who actually plays, I must respectfully disagree. You've had both me and Cindy say the same thing here.

And if the women in your area are standing on the service line to receive serve...then somebody needs to import some new pros!!! (or, did you mean baseline? ;) )

I realize that stepping back opens up the angle, but you gotta hit the angle first!!!

Again, the women who play mixed in my experience have no problem blocking back a flat serve. Spin it over our heads though...and we can't freakin' reach it!

Ok, I'm now having flashbacks to one mixed match where I didn't return one serve the whole match...they all spun over my head, no matter where I stood!

*shivering*



I think you are basing things on your experiences... a few decades back I was playing with my girlfriend at the time a good athletic and pretty fair tennis player... probably about a 3.5 like yourself. We were finishing up... and I asked if I could just hit a few serves... and she obliged. After about 5 or 6 serves she said to me... "hit me a hard one... a real serve". I said ok... and proceeded to hit a flat serve up the T past her and up against the fence. She never flinched. All she said was... "ok... that was pretty fast, do it again"... I proceeded to hit serves to her as she moved back 6 feet... even then she was just barely getting her racket on it.

I think you can handle a serve in the 80's and even high 90's.... but anything over that and it is going to be more than you can deal with... and that is not even with the server opening up the court with wide angle and spins.

I was playing a former female Pro (her statements not mine) a few weeks ago and she could not handle solid serves (90-95) with good placement... let alone my fast serves.

Topaz
01-12-2010, 03:34 AM
I meant the line that is right before the fence. And I would love to wink back at you but I don't know where to look.

Raiden031, I'll take a spin serve any day over a fast flat serve!

I thought so!

A wink is a semi-colon then a parentheses. ;) Or, you can click on the pictures of smilies to the right of the reply screen (but it doesn't come up in the quick reply).

I think you are basing things on your experiences... a few decades back I was playing with my girlfriend at the time a good athletic and pretty fair tennis player... probably about a 3.5 like yourself. We were finishing up... and I asked if I could just hit a few serves... and she obliged. After about 5 or 6 serves she said to me... "hit me a hard one... a real serve". I said ok... and proceeded to hit a flat serve up the T past her and up against the fence. She never flinched. All she said was... "ok... that was pretty fast, do it again"... I proceeded to hit serves to her as she moved back 6 feet... even then she was just barely getting her racket on it.

I think you can handle a serve in the 80's and even high 90's.... but anything over that and it is going to be more than you can deal with... and that is not even with the server opening up the court with wide angle and spins.

I was playing a former female Pro (her statements not mine) a few weeks ago and she could not handle solid serves (90-95) with good placement... let alone my fast serves.

Of course, both Cindy and I are basing our comments on our experiences playing mixed. We've been through this before Ripper! Our experiences are recent and at the actual level that the OP would be playing. Just because they might be different from yours doesn't make them any less valid. The OP is going to be playing 3.5 mixed (7.0). Again, that's the level where Cindy and I have experience, so we are very well versed and able to give good advice to the OP.

Cindysphinx
01-12-2010, 06:42 AM
And Ripper? I take you at your word that you serve 100+ mph. That's not the point. The point is what serving strategy should a 3.5 guy use in 7.0 mixed to best win a point, assuming he lacks a consistent 100 mph heater.

Puma
01-12-2010, 07:32 AM
I play mixed often. For me personally, winning doesn't mean enough for me to try to drill a woman in the chest with an overhead.

And honestly, a 3.5 level player doesn't have the skill sets available to defend themselves against such tactics.

But, of course there are those who will do anything to win. There are a lot of "tough" guys out there that just don't care.

Somehow, I just can't imagine enjoying a victory after plugging a woman with a tennis ball.

Perry the Platypus
01-12-2010, 08:40 AM
Serving is like pitching be it in mixed or otherwise. You have to mix it up. Granted if I am playing 8.0 mixed against a 3.5 my kick might work all day, but if I occasionally mix in a slice it is even more effective (FWITIW......I believe the kick and slice to be superior options to the flat bomb.....women seem to like pace more than they like spin). But at 9.0 mixed the 4.5 girls catch up to the kick after a game or so and I had better mix it up.

Relief pitchers may be able to get away with one really good pitch for an inning, but if you want to pitch a full game, you better have some variety.....tennis is no different.

ttbrowne
01-12-2010, 09:37 AM
I played USTA MD's last year for the first time. 7.0. My wife was 2.5 but more like a low 3.5. We lost every match. The guys were very serious and poaching til the end, even when the score was 6-0 5-0. I admit, I'm not agressive enuf but I have almost really hurt a couple of women by accident before (one a pro) and I will avoid it at all costs.
I've got to wrap my mind around this style if I'm gonna play MD's again.

precision2b
01-12-2010, 10:17 AM
Your partner didn't want to hurt his shoulder.
Men are plenty capable of pegging from a serve.
A flat serve into the body or more likely kicker into the head works wonders.

No one needs to get hurt in doubles.

Don't play the net.
Be attentive.
Use your racquet.
Turn your back and move towards the tram lines.

Basketballers don't cry when a pass goes wrong a hits them in the nose. Nether do footballers when they miss a catch and dislocate a finger.

Getting hit is an accepted part of playing doubles.
It's time tennis players stop being pussies suck it up.

In all other sports if you intentionally throw something and hit another player in a game you will receive a penalty and ejected from the game…

+1. Alten, a good spin serve is fine and very effective. A push serve is not.

As for Equinox, I feel very, very confident that he couldn't hurt me with his serve, and he probably couldn't hit me with it either. The ego on some guys. Sheez.

As for my dear, wonderful 3.5 teammate, I did my best to convince him not to play around with the li'l lady. When we switched partners, I was in the ad court, and he hit a very soft serve to me. I ran around my BH and hit my FH as hard as I possibly could, with no regard whatever for whether I missed or tore my shoulder out of the socket. I think my eyes actually might have been closed. He couldn't return it. Next time he served to me, same thing. Third time, he hit the bloody serve correctly, and we were cool after that.

Serve cupcakes out of a misplaced sense of chivalry, fellas, and you just might get broken.
I agree and i just don't get it, to me a well placed shot for a winner is a much better reward then smashing someone with the ball...

I play mixed often. For me personally, winning doesn't mean enough for me to try to drill a woman in the chest with an overhead.

And honestly, a 3.5 level player doesn't have the skill sets available to defend themselves against such tactics.

But, of course there are those who will do anything to win. There are a lot of "tough" guys out there that just don't care.

Somehow, I just can't imagine enjoying a victory after plugging a woman with a tennis ball.

agreed...

gameboy
01-12-2010, 11:30 AM
In all other sports if you intentionally throw something and hit another player in a game you will receive a penalty and ejected from the game…


BS!

Basketball - players throw the ball to an opposing player all the time while falling out of bounds. And in many instances, they throw hard at them (so they cannot catch it).

Soccer - players routinely kick the ball hard at the defender, especially in free kicks with defenders forming a wall. And we are not even talking about shooting directly at goalies.

Volleyball - hitting the opponent is an integral part of the sport.

Hockey - Players routinely shoot right at the goalie looking for a rebound.

Baseball - you can throw at the batter the first time. You just can't do it after being warned.

Need I go on? And I didn't even bring up football where getting hit by a ball is FAR preferable to getting tackled.

Ripper014
01-12-2010, 11:55 AM
And Ripper? I take you at your word that you serve 100+ mph. That's not the point. The point is what serving strategy should a 3.5 guy use in 7.0 mixed to best win a point, assuming he lacks a consistent 100 mph heater.


I have never really considered myself as having a big serve... I topped out at about 115mph and most of those who I played with served bigger. What I do well is consistantly hit deep serves with different spins, speeds, placements and being able to back them up with a solid net game.

The reason for my post was to address the fact that you feel that the women at your level can easily block back 100 mph flat serves and I just didn't think that would be the case. But then I don't believe there are many 3.5 men that serve at that speed either.

I have been getting into less and less of these postings because it seems that people are not looking for opinions as they are looking for validation. Things get heated because the experiences for each of us tells us something different... all I can say is maybe we should open our minds a little and take into consideration that some of us have played through multiple levels over a lot of years and have a better understanding of the total landscape.

I am not talking about myself since I have been away from the game for a while... but I am sure there are others here that have played themselves up from a 3.0 level through to perhaps a 4.5 or 5.0+

I still get to play a lot of men from 3.5 up to about a 4.5 on a regular basis, however I do not get the same opportunity to play with women. But from what I have seen... observing them play prior to getting on the court, they lack some power and a lot of mobility compared to their male counterparts. In general though I do feel they are more consistant but then they are usually trying to play within their abilities.

Just my observations... but like I always say I could be wrong.

Cindysphinx
01-12-2010, 12:04 PM
The reason for my post was to address the fact that you feel that the women at your level can easily block back 100 mph flat serves and I just didn't think that would be the case. But then I don't believe there are many 3.5 men that serve at that speed either.

I didn't say that. Nor do I think that.

I think 3.5 women are better at blocking back a flat serve than handling spin serves. I do not know at what MPH the flat serve would become too difficult for a typical 3.5 woman to handle. I also do not know the RPM of spin needed to defeat the typical 3.5 woman.

I do know that if you take the inventory of serves you typically see from 3.5 men in mixed, the 3.5 man will be more successful (meaning fewer DFs and more serves returned poorly or not at all) with a spin serve than a flat serve when serving to a 3.5 woman.

Ripper014
01-12-2010, 12:10 PM
I didn't say that. Nor do I think that.

I think 3.5 women are better at blocking back a flat serve than handling spin serves. I do not know at what MPH the flat serve would become too difficult for a typical 3.5 woman to handle. I also do not know the RPM of spin needed to defeat the typical 3.5 woman.

I do know that if you take the inventory of serves you typically see from 3.5 men in mixed, the 3.5 man will be more successful (meaning fewer DFs and more serves returned poorly or not at all) with a spin serve than a flat serve when serving to a 3.5 woman.


The few 3.5 men I ever play with do not have good serves, but then I suppose that is all relative... they do not have overwhelming spin but a few have some speed. My guess is that any substantial success would come from placement over either excessive spin or speed.

But you are entitled to your opinion I am not going to argue over it with you.

Ripper014
01-12-2010, 02:22 PM
All this talk about serving. The biggest servers aren't necessarily the biggest winners, as it's been proven many times. Personally I haven't seen anybody at my level of 4.0 or so that can ace me often in a match (maybe once or twice) so if I see that someone has a great serve, I look for other opportunities and strategies to beat them. Let them bomb one or two, if they can get them by me, I'm not intimidated - in fact it makes the win even sweeter. Ace? Good for you - I just do the fake racquet-clap and move to the next point. It's not like I can't ace you back, next time I serve.

Good servers are not necessarily the biggest servers, nor do they need to ace you all the time. What they do is use their serves to win points... either outright with an ace... service winner or force a weak return for an easy putaway. Combinations of spin, power and placement.

I am sure I don't need to tell you this since you are an experienced player, I am posting it just to clarify it for those that are not.