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KenC
01-05-2010, 08:15 AM
As a young lad in the late 70's early 80's I used to hit a forehand slice every now and then, mostly on DTL approach shots to keep the ball low. Coaches used to actually teach that shot. Now that I have returned to tennis in middle life I see that the FH slice is no longer part of today's power game. Just for fun I spent some time with my coach today resurrecting the FH slice and trying to put some power behind it.

I found that instead of hitting it just like a slice backhand, I got better results hitting it sorta' like a volley, just much harder. In other words, the racket went from high to low, but did not return high. I used a moderate forward swing with a slightly open face and a conti grip. I would say the difference between the highest point and the lowest point of the swing was about 12 inches, so the racquet path was more forward than vertical.

Anyone still teach the FH slice out there? Any suggestions?

I think I will start to practice the FH slice DTL for approach shots and CC into the service box corner for extreme angles. It seems somewhat easier to hit that corner with slice than with heavy topspin, which is how I normally go to that angle for passing shots or winners.

dman72
01-05-2010, 08:21 AM
The guys at my club call this my "signature shot"...I really think that my signature shot is the forehand down the line that is 2 feet out, but that's another story. :confused: :)

On sitters to the middle of the court..especially after having hit a few forehands out when trying to crush them :( ...I will hit a side spin/underspin shot that lands near the sideline and spins away from my opponent. Guys who aren't used to seeing this shot can have a hard time with it, and they often net it or pop up a floater. I used something between an eastern forehand and continental, short chopping stroke with an open racquet face, hitting the ball at around 4 o'clock or so.

Of course better players slice it viciously cross court or have better footwork and can get under it with topspin backhands, but at my level you really can never slice enough, on either wing.

Xenakis
01-05-2010, 08:25 AM
I like this shot too, not sure why it isn't used more.

Santoro is/was the only player who routinely hit a f/h slice (I think.) He uses two hands on his forehand and slices more or less all the time, while on his backhand he tends to hit a more conventional topspin drive.

Other than that I think people teach it as a running defensive shot, or the 'squash shot'.

I've been trying out the Santoro two handed f/h slice, can't do it yet but I'll keep trying.

dman72
01-05-2010, 08:34 AM
I like this shot too, not sure why it isn't used more.

Santoro is/was the only player who routinely hit a f/h slice (I think.) He uses two hands on his forehand and slices more or less all the time, while on his backhand he tends to hit a more conventional topspin drive.

Other than that I think people teach it as a running defensive shot, or the 'squash shot'.

I've been trying out the Santoro two handed f/h slice, can't do it yet but I'll keep trying.

It isn't used more because few pros use it other than on defense.

At an intermediate level, slice is very effective, especially against guys who train hitting waist high balls with semi western grips and a lot of topspin, who don't have good footwork and aren't used to a ball that dies when it lands. The guy with the highest winning percentage in my league hits slice almost exclusively on both sides unless he's trying to lob you.

I'm one of those guys who loves to hit hard with topspin, but honestly, if I wanted to win a higher percentage against the guys I'd play, I'd slice everything on both sides except in passing shots.

raiden031
01-05-2010, 08:36 AM
I think its odd that its not really taught. I mean it is very important as a defensive shot because you can't always hit a topspin drive when barely reaching the ball on the run, or when it only bounces to knee height. I find myself hitting this shot alot against shotmakers.

Ripper014
01-05-2010, 08:57 AM
I used it on approach shots and to change things up. One of the reasons I like to use it as an approach shot is that it gives me a little more time to get into a good net position, it also keeps the ball down and has a little movement on it.

But like the OP I am also from the 70's and old habits are just hard to break.

smoothtennis
01-05-2010, 09:22 AM
IMHO this is a great shot to have as it keeps the ball low, and is deadly accurate due to the firm racket face before and at contact. I use it for DTL a lot. Also, it is very easy once you can hit this shot well, to take pace off for a short low ball which usually nets a weak pop up from a guy on the run.

Once you show an opponent you are hitting it DTL every so often - they will naturally start to cover the DTL, and since the racket face isn't moving around much - it is very easy to wrong-foot someone by changing the racket face's angle at the last second.

KenC
01-05-2010, 09:56 AM
My coach and I discussed the utility of this shot after our session. We came up with some interesting thoughts, such as:

-This would be a great shot against players who don't like to bend their knees on shots.
-This is a good shot to pull out periodically to disrupt rhythm.
-Its a good shot against topspin monkeys and those with western grips.
-It starts out looking somewhat like a drop shot, so the opponent thinks drop shot and then has to quickly change to a ball with a good deal of pace.
-After hitting a few hard slices, then the drop shot is a good idea.
-Its a good shot when you are pushed way back as there is more time for recovery and the slice can be hit harder and higher over the net and still land in.

The other thing is that I'm a lefty, so I can hit this CC over the shortest part of the net to my opponents BH. This should allow me a little more margin for error.

Xenakis
01-05-2010, 10:14 AM
It isn't used more because few pros use it other than on defense.

At an intermediate level, slice is very effective, especially against guys who train hitting waist high balls with semi western grips and a lot of topspin, who don't have good footwork and aren't used to a ball that dies when it lands. The guy with the highest winning percentage in my league hits slice almost exclusively on both sides unless he's trying to lob you.

I'm one of those guys who loves to hit hard with topspin, but honestly, if I wanted to win a higher percentage against the guys I'd play, I'd slice everything on both sides except in passing shots.

Agreed about it being effective at an intermediate level. When I've played people better than me that play with a lot of topspin and hit the ball hard they don't seem used to digging out low sliced balls, especially if there is sidespin on them too.

One player said to me after losing a few points 'this is like playing mini-tennis.'

As I get better (hopefully) I intend to keep using slices on both 'wings', not all the time though obviously.

dman72
01-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Agreed about it being effective at an intermediate level. When I've played people better than me that play with a lot of topspin and hit the ball hard they don't seem used to digging out low sliced balls, especially if there is sidespin on them too.

One player said to me after losing a few points 'this is like playing mini-tennis.'

As I get better (hopefully) I intend to keep using slices on both 'wings', not all the time though obviously.


Yep. I really need to stop being such a knuckle head against the top-spin guys in my league..there's one in particular who I try to hit with from the baseline, and it's an exercise in futility....he's just more consistent at bashing then me.

Every time I went to hitting the junk against him in our last match, I won points..but when I see him getting frustrated, part of my self consciousness wants to show him that I don't only hit that way, and then I fall back into the trap of feeling that hitting slice junk balls is somehow "inferior" tennis. Next time I'm throwing all pride into the wind and hitting everything with a continental grip, slice only!!

Power Player
01-05-2010, 11:05 AM
I hit forehand slices for winners all the time. I set it up with power.

The best combo for this is a forehand crosscourt followed by a DTL forehand slice. It spins to the side so it is bouncing away from the opponent. They basically have to run all the way across the court at topspeed to have a chance at it, and then hit a return that somehow I won't just volley to the other side.

GuyClinch
01-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Your better off using that practice time to hit bigger harder topspin forehands IMHO. There is a reason so few pros use the shot.. Any half-assed not quite perfect underspin forehand is going to get smashed by a decent player.

UnforcedError
01-05-2010, 01:39 PM
I hit forehand slices for winners all the time. I set it up with power.

The best combo for this is a forehand crosscourt followed by a DTL forehand slice. It spins to the side so it is bouncing away from the opponent. They basically have to run all the way across the court at topspeed to have a chance at it, and then hit a return that somehow I won't just volley to the other side.

That sounds like an extremely difficult shot to hit unless you are in such a superior position that anything would work and even then there has to be a higher percentage shot to use to finish off the point. I can't even remember seeing a down the line forehand slice winner (DTLFSW for short) ever but I'll start looking for one.

As for the rest of the thread I do see how a forehand slice approach could be effective although for me unless I can't get under the ball because it is too short and I'm stretched, going over the ball is the most effective shot. I will hit backhand slice approaches but it is relatively easier for me to slice a backhand.

bhupaes
01-05-2010, 01:45 PM
When I fixed my backhand slice to use the right mechanics, I noticed a great improvement in my backhand volley - the feel was very similar in both strokes. I don't know why doing it from the baseline was easier to start with - perhaps it was because I didn't have to worry about the backswing or follow through.

Although I don't hit a forehand slice in match play except as a last ditch attempt at defense, I am practicing the forehand slice from the baseline in the hopes that it will have a similar effect on my forehand volley. The mechanics of the forehand volley seem to be almost identical, except the volley has no backswing and the follow through is abbreviated.

user92626
01-05-2010, 01:55 PM
IMO, even the BH slice is nearly worthless as an offensive shot, and you can slice BH much harder than you do FH. So, naturally, the FH slice has been discarded the way Lenin was.

Your time is better spent in honing FH topspin, pace and placement.

tennisdad65
01-05-2010, 02:07 PM
I am old school, slice/flat most of the time, some topspin while rallying and lots of topspin mainly for passing shots.
I think forehand slice has its use mainly for squash and approach shots. Use it to often in modern tennis at 4.5+ and you will get killed.

On the other hand, if you hit it hard and flat with a bit of underspin like connors did, you will be fine.

LeeD
01-05-2010, 04:30 PM
Yeah, Connors owned that shot, slight sidespin with underspin, skidding away from a right hander's forehand, low and weird bounce. Best on grass, good on concrete, hard to do well on clay or slower high bouncing surfaces.
I thought I would work on that shot a month ago, but instead decided better to work on earlier pronation of serves.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and my tennis game is quite incomplete after 33 years.

crash1929
01-05-2010, 08:19 PM
i saw this guy at the club who played number one for an ivy league school hitting the other day. he was rallying and hitting HIGH over the net. the highest over the net I've ever seen anyone at the club hit. he then was throwing in some slice fh's down the line. i like the shot and am starting to use it.

if in fact the bh slice is actually used for something strategically by federer (and not just a weak defensive shot) then why cant the fh slice be used for strategic reasons as well? I can remember the last time i saw a pro hit one though.

Hardserve
01-05-2010, 11:46 PM
It's interesting what the guys are saying about Connor's using this old school shot
as I didn't know Connors used it, I not watched alot of his matches so I wouldn't
know. But that's interesting to know..

FOREHAND BACKSPIN DRIVE

One of the slice weapons against topspin drivers.

All it is a aggressive volley punched through the court away from the net and can be
used inside the baseline off serves as a return of serve. (defense shot).

Any coach or advanced player can correct me if I'm loading up wrong but here's how I do it

Like how Roger Federer keeps his arm in the backswing for his forehand to generate power. Well
its the same with the forehand volley which I use to slice the ball with from inside the baseline.

I keep my racquet in the backswing when I move to the ball until the last second when I need to hit it
then only then wll I actually execute the punch to do the slice. It is a volley shot, so guys, you need
a good volley to slice the ball like that with the pace. if you have no volley, its not recommended
trying this until you learn how to volley.

KenC
01-06-2010, 12:01 AM
IMO, even the BH slice is nearly worthless as an offensive shot, and you can slice BH much harder than you do FH. So, naturally, the FH slice has been discarded the way Lenin was.

Your time is better spent in honing FH topspin, pace and placement.

I have to disagree. There are too many players out there with one-dimensional games that will get consistently crushed by players that are marginally better than them, even if they too are one-dimensional. Tennis is a game of strategy, not power, yet today everyone just wants to show how hard they can hit the ball.

The argument that the pros don't use slice is also baseless. I see Federer and Nadal hit backhand slice consistently throughout their matches. Every now and then Pros hit FH slice chip shots to approach the net. Even the Pros know that being one-dimensional is an easy way to make your opponent comfortable. So, they mix it up to keep them off balance.

Even if the Pros prefer hard hit topspin, they are Pros, and we are not. Not even close. If anyone on this board tried to outmuscle Federer with hard topspin he would be double bageled and laughed of the court. For any of us to beat Federer we need strategy that keeps him off balance.

Lastly, an intelligent tennis player would develop his skills to have a variety of shots that he could choose at any moment to best match the situation he is in. This goes beyond topspin groundstrokes to include flat driving shots, drop shots, slice approach shots, hard hit, low slice shots ala Connors, floating slice shots for recovery, etc. Then there's net play...

Oh, and for those baseline topspin monkeys who seem to love to consistently hit me waist high balls, thank you for the easy matches, but its getting really boring beating you.

user92626
01-06-2010, 12:33 AM
"Every now and then Pros hit FH slice chip shots to approach the net."

Show me a clip where pros do that in a match.

"Even if the Pros prefer hard hit topspin, they are Pros, and we are not. Not even close."

Sounds like a cop-out response. The sky is the limit on the advanced side. I guess it's also limitless in the opposite direction. LOL. Anyway, I don't see how I can use reasoning with you. Go on with your game, then.

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 01:15 AM
I have to disagree. There are too many players out there with one-dimensional games that will get consistently crushed by players that are marginally better than them, even if they too are one-dimensional. Tennis is a game of strategy, not power, yet today everyone just wants to show how hard they can hit the ball.

The argument that the pros don't use slice is also baseless. I see Federer and Nadal hit backhand slice consistently throughout their matches. Every now and then Pros hit FH slice chip shots to approach the net. Even the Pros know that being one-dimensional is an easy way to make your opponent comfortable. So, they mix it up to keep them off balance.

Even if the Pros prefer hard hit topspin, they are Pros, and we are not. Not even close. If anyone on this board tried to outmuscle Federer with hard topspin he would be double bageled and laughed of the court. For any of us to beat Federer we need strategy that keeps him off balance.

Lastly, an intelligent tennis player would develop his skills to have a variety of shots that he could choose at any moment to best match the situation he is in. This goes beyond topspin groundstrokes to include flat driving shots, drop shots, slice approach shots, hard hit, low slice shots ala Connors, floating slice shots for recovery, etc. Then there's net play...

Oh, and for those baseline topspin monkeys who seem to love to consistently hit me waist high balls, thank you for the easy matches, but its getting really boring beating you.



I have to agree with all of that because it goes way beyond just the basic foundation of topspin and flat drives, slice and backspin is a big part of the game as well for a well developed player that's why I moved out of boring Driving of Topspin and moving more into acquiring slice weapons in my game to add variety because that's boring when everybody else in the club is doing all that basic stuff at my level, while the top players in the club are all using the volley more to counterpunch and slice with.

Reason why Slice and backspin is better even though topspin is good is because
topspin has a certain timing, so does slice, and so does backspin.

Now I come along and start doing forehand slices at my level and the players are all basic topspin drivers and they just hit the ball too hard anyway, they say hey that's new, what is this shot then. Then They find out its a weapon and they don't like it because they can't easily time back a backspin ball that skids through the court instead of bouncing up and giving them time, still they try to topspin it. Or swing more wildly at it Sigh...

Yes I have seen some pros use forehand slice to chip at the net and that worked for me also against guys at my level who can't even volley from inside the midcourt because they too busy being comfortable staying up close at net on the volley in the doubles that they never bothered to develop anything new to defend in the midcourt except for spooning the ball up in the air out of control allowing me to get an easy overhead when I chip the ball with the forehand slice in there..

Federer selects his shots pretty carefully and he aint a one dimensional player. He might even have a fourth dimension because the guy has so many dimensions in his game.

I think Federer does use the forehand slice as a drive approach sometimes, he does get that ball down there quickly.

BreakPoint
01-06-2010, 01:45 AM
I also hit forehand slice approach shots quite often. I mean, if a backhand slice approach shot works, why wouldn't a forehand slice approach shot? It's essentially the same shot but down the other sideline. And against a right-handed opponent, it goes to their backhand and if they use a 2HBH, they can have trouble digging up a low skidding slice, and even if they do, they'll most likely pop it up which gives you the easy putaway volley at the net. :)

trenzterra
01-06-2010, 02:08 AM
Well I think the forehand slice has been used more frequently on the tour in the past year. Or at least I keep seeing Federer using it now, often as a dropshot.

I too really like using the forehand slice.

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 02:28 AM
I also hit forehand slice approach shots quite often. I mean, if a backhand slice approach shot works, why wouldn't a forehand slice approach shot? It's essentially the same shot but down the other sideline. And against a right-handed opponent, it goes to their backhand and if they use a 2HBH, they can have trouble digging up a low skidding slice, and even if they do, they'll most likely pop it up which gives you the easy putaway volley at the net. :)

Well for me it hits faster than my one hand backhand slice because it zips through very flat with backspin
like a drive. Yeah that backpin can trouble these guys to their backhand, and because it skids through and
dosen't bounce up and hang like topspin does to give them time to set, it gives them less time to time their swings.

LMAO Now you become a time robber.

it can be used to hit that big penetrating slice drive or to hit Federer's Favourite Tactic, a shallow chip shot over the net in the midcourt area which stuffs up alot of his opponents who like to drive big from the baseline now have to scramble up into the midcourt off balance to try to dig up a very low chip shot and they spoon it up weak and his opponents just go up like a balooon when they give him a sitter.

I tried it on A-grade guys in my club, and it worked like a charm, I was surprised how effective it was. Here the Front Guy with the volley stays close up at the net, while the back guy is on the baseline expecting topspin drives. I Sent a dipping chip shot over the net down into the midcourt area. the net guy missed it as he has no volley to cover from down there because hes been only doing his volleys up close at net up high so hes stuffed.

Now the back guy is in trouble because his front charge had missed the ball, also because the back guy
is still in a daydream thinking hes still getting a drive that bounces up for him and gives him plenty of time to
set & swing LMAO, instead its a soft shallow chip shot low in the midcourt, he is forced to now have to suddenly scramble in from the baseline running in all off balance so he spoons the ball. LMAO... I saw alot of
spooning from them that day when I hit those chip shots..

KenC
01-06-2010, 02:33 AM
This all started late summer when I started playing often at a local park where there is a great group of regulars. One player in particular is a classic old-school player, you know the type, uses only a conti grip and is able to hit slice, flat, topspin with it, and is an all-court player. No one can beat him, and he is in his mid 40's. He has incredible shot variety, from missiles to delicate drop shots. And he plays pure strategy. What drives everyone crazy is that his shots rarely go above our knees. So, if we don't really develop our knee bends, we're screwed. His BH slice is low, fast, deep and deadly accurate. He also hits these FH chip shots to approach the net with that are impossible to do anything with except a lob. It's actually a great pleasure to play against him because he makes me elevate my game at least a couple levels just to not look like an idiot.

Anyway, it made me think that power isn't everything. And watching these younger Nadal wannabe's screaming in frustration against him is proof. The ability to force opponents to play outside of their safety zone is a major advantage at the mortal level. What bothers me so much about Federer is that he has all the shots, but refuses to play the less powerful shots against ball crushers like Del Potro and Nadal. He wants to be the more powerful player even if it costs him the match. Well, I've learned from his mistake and am now going to accumulate other shots that effectively neutralize stronger players. And I prefer to hit hard FH slice shots than resort to pushing moonballs!

DNShade
01-06-2010, 04:22 AM
The forehand (and backhand) slice is a GREAT weapon at all levels. It can be a VERY offensive shot and you are starting to see it used more and more at pro levels now as well. It is a very tough shot for most players to handle today with W and SW grips. Forces a lot of errors and is a great approach shot of either side.

The reason I'm assuming most people are posting here that they would "eat a forehand slice shot up" is because they haven't faced a real forehand slice shot. We aren't talking about a floating, slow shot with backspin - we are talking about a driven, hard shot that skids through the court and doesn't bounce hardly at all. This shot is hit about as hard as most topspin drives - it just stays extremely low.

There was a reason that Fabrice was able to stay on the tour for so long. This is the reason. It's a wonderful shot and should be part of your arsenal.

KenC
01-06-2010, 04:31 AM
^^That is a key point. Thee is a big difference in a well hit, hard FH slice and the typical FH slice pop up that we hit in desperation when pulled out really wide.

What I am trying to do is create the equivalent of a good backhand slice on the FH side.

ttbrowne
01-06-2010, 05:56 AM
I use this occasionally in doubles (3.5-4.0) as an approach shot. It's got to have be a deep shot though.

Mixed doubles: This shot seems to throw women off for some reason. They don't see it often.

dman72
01-06-2010, 06:43 AM
I know first hand how tough those low skidding slice shots can be, and I'm adopting the "if you can't beat em, join em" philosophy. I've had tremendous difficulty on my backhand side with slices hit with some zip, and now I've noticed that many people I play have the same troubles.

jrod
01-06-2010, 07:19 AM
I agree. The FH slice is rather uncommon with the modern players, which is partly why it is so effective. I'd much rather have someone hit me a topspin drive than a good penetrating, skidding FH slice. At 53, my knees don't always cooperate and I find myself improvising more often with these kind of balls...leading to more unforced errors.

I really need to practice this shot more for offensive purposes. It's definitely a shot I don't "own" but could benefit from. I use slice far more off my BH wing than I do on the FH side. The added variety on the FH wing would provided additional weaponry to my game.

Steady Eddy
01-06-2010, 07:28 AM
I recall of friend of mine bitterly complaining about losing to a older player who hit some forehand slices. He said that to him there was no such shot. Instead of convincing me that it was an unfair shot, it convinced me that it was a good shot to learn. It's good to be able to hit slice off of both sides.

LeeD
01-06-2010, 08:33 AM
and don't forget, most Men's pros also use a forehand slice, almost a slapshot, to return really wide gets to their forehands. As in the backhand wide get, it allows you more time to get into position, it changes the spin, bounce and pace from your normal forehand, and it takes less physical effort to hit than a topspin shot.

Power Player
01-06-2010, 08:38 AM
That sounds like an extremely difficult shot to hit unless you are in such a superior position that anything would work and even then there has to be a higher percentage shot to use to finish off the point. I can't even remember seeing a down the line forehand slice winner (DTLFSW for short) ever but I'll start looking for one.



This is what happens when I am tired and don't fully read. I should clarify that the shot I was attempting to describe is really a drop shot. I never hit a forehand slice for a winner, but I dropshot from my forehand side in the situation I described previously. I just consider it a slice, but it really is a dropshot.

My drop shot bounces at least twice before the service line and spins out towards the doubles alley if I hit it properly.

There is a guy I play with who is older that DOES hit forehand slices for winners. He uses 2 hands and chops down aggressively. Not only is the shot super tough to return, but it actually has some power and he hits clean winners and finishes points with it.

A rule of thumb for me is to return a slice with a slice. This guy loves to slice me and watch me try and topspin the shot back..so I dont. I try my best to hit a better slice return so I get something that will sit a bit higher next shot.

UnforcedError
01-06-2010, 09:17 AM
This is what happens when I am tired and don't fully read. I should clarify that the shot I was attempting to describe is really a drop shot. I never hit a forehand slice for a winner, but I dropshot from my forehand side in the situation I described previously. I just consider it a slice, but it really is a dropshot.


That makes sense, thanks for clarifying it.

To all the people that say Federer is now using a forehand slice for anything other than a drop shot or a last ditch squash shot to get back in the point can you please post youtube videos because I have yet to see it.

The reason why you see a lot of people slice backhands and not forehands is the relative ease which you can do it on that side. The forehand slice is not about to make a comeback on the pro tour. Not many pros are going to chose to "mix it up" with a forehand slice and give up the opportunity to take control of a point coming over their forehand.

I'm not against a forehand slice I just think the relative difficulty of the shot especially if you have a semi western grip relative to other alternatives makes it a low percentage play for most people.

LeeD
01-06-2010, 09:38 AM
I'm closer to 4.0 levels, and use the SW forehand squash/slap quite often, maybe twice a set, on balls hit into my doubles alley, and after a long run, need some time to recover and get back into semi position. Usually hit to my opponent's weaker side, it certainly helps getting back into position, plus I can snap thru the shot really hard, imparting lots of back/sidespin on the ball.
Not something I'd do regularly, as the opponent would get used to it.

user92626
01-06-2010, 11:45 AM
That makes sense, thanks for clarifying it.

To all the people that say Federer is now using a forehand slice for anything other than a drop shot or a last ditch squash shot to get back in the point can you please post youtube videos because I have yet to see it.
The reason why you see a lot of people slice backhands and not forehands is the relative ease which you can do it on that side.

The forehand slice is not about to make a comeback on the pro tour. Not many pros are going to chose to "mix it up" with a forehand slice and give up the opportunity to take control of a point coming over their forehand.
I'm not against a forehand slice I just think the relative difficulty of the shot especially if you have a semi western grip relative to other alternatives makes it a low percentage play for most people.

LOL. Good luck with that request, man. Since my post above, there'd been many disagreement but none could produce such an example. Lots of hot air around here.

dozu
01-06-2010, 12:06 PM
I found that instead of hitting it just like a slice backhand, I got better results hitting it sorta' like a volley, just much harder. In other words, the racket went from high to low, but did not return high. I used a moderate forward swing with a slightly open face and a conti grip. I would say the difference between the highest point and the lowest point of the swing was about 12 inches, so the racquet path was more forward than vertical.


the BH slice works the same way, and should also be executed like a volley. This is simple physics and geometry applied to tennis.

racket path more inline with target line, more force is applied to the ball, more penetration, more margin for error.

Netspirit
01-06-2010, 01:08 PM
I wonder if Taylor Dent or Ivan Navarro used the FH slice in their USO'09 epic. If even pure S&Vs don't use it for approaches, probably nobody else does.

user92626
01-06-2010, 01:48 PM
the BH slice works the same way, and should also be executed like a volley. This is simple physics and geometry applied to tennis.

racket path more inline with target line, more force is applied to the ball, more penetration, more margin for error.

No, I do not execute the bh slice like a volley. I slice it hard and it comes over with side spin. The pace is only enough to place it deep and safe. Slice volley is hardly that aggressive. It's more for absorbing force and for placement.

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 02:04 PM
The forehand (and backhand) slice is a GREAT weapon at all levels. It can be a VERY offensive shot and you are starting to see it used more and more at pro levels now as well. It is a very tough shot for most players to handle today with W and SW grips. Forces a lot of errors and is a great approach shot of either side.

The reason I'm assuming most people are posting here that they would "eat a forehand slice shot up" is because they haven't faced a real forehand slice shot. We aren't talking about a floating, slow shot with backspin - we are talking about a driven, hard shot that skids through the court and doesn't bounce hardly at all. This shot is hit about as hard as most topspin drives - it just stays extremely low.

There was a reason that Fabrice was able to stay on the tour for so long. This is the reason. It's a wonderful shot and should be part of your arsenal.

Yes, its the big flat penerating slice for the forehand, it's not the weaker side spin
slice that's done with a swing that floats in the air at 60-70 mph and then bounces off
to the side..... Instead its a fast penetrating drive done with a volley so it hits the ball
with more zip from 100-120 mph, more bigger and flatter and lower and likes people's
feet. Its very effective in doubles.

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 02:23 PM
No, I do not execute the bh slice like a volley. I slice it hard and it comes over with side spin. The pace is only enough to place it deep and safe. Slice volley is hardly that aggressive. It's more for absorbing force and for placement.

A good tennis player will make you hit the ball on the run.
Because they know if they can make you swing at the ball
on the run you're likely to hit the ball off balance.

Once they have you off balance you're stuffed.

papa
01-06-2010, 05:25 PM
I still like to teach the forehand slice and I happen to think the shot is being used more and more these days. Its a great change of pace shot and very easy to control. However, if you overuse it, watch out.

GuyClinch
01-06-2010, 07:47 PM
The reason I'm assuming most people are posting here that they would "eat a forehand slice shot up" is because they haven't faced a real forehand slice shot. We aren't talking about a floating, slow shot with backspin - we are talking about a driven, hard shot that skids through the court and doesn't bounce hardly at all. This shot is hit about as hard as most topspin drives - it just stays extremely low.

The problem is rec players aren't going to hit this shot. <g>

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 09:43 PM
The problem is rec players aren't going to hit this shot. <g>

Yeah that's right, it aint for the beginners the rec players probably won't beable to hit this shot with their downward chop as it aint a chop shot. You punch through the
ball. But you got to be taught the volley by a teaching pro on how to get your volley good enough first then you can be confident enough to try the forehand slice with it.

.

Hardserve
01-06-2010, 09:52 PM
I still like to teach the forehand slice and I happen to think the shot is being used more and more these days. Its a great change of pace shot and very easy to control. However, if you overuse it, watch out.

I use it for my return of serves if I don't have the time to do a full swing to
drive And use it on the weak slow stuff that drops short in the court or sits up.
But you got to give some time for the shot to first load up before you do the silce.

So its best to mix it up and bring it out every now and again in a rally
to use on any slow balls along with your topspin so you got time to
load the shot.

GuyClinch
01-06-2010, 10:08 PM
Yeah that's right, it aint for the beginners the rec players probably won't beable to hit this shot with their downward chop as it aint a chop shot. You punch through the ball. But you got to be taught the volley by a teaching pro on how to get your volley good enough first then you can be confident enough to try the forehand slice with it.

Its worse then that. What your saying essentially is that hard flat shots are very effective. That's basically what a phenomenal forehand slice shot is. That why you have to hit through the ball more rather then chop down on it..

I am saying that it's really a waste of time for rec players to even practice this shot - unless your extremely dedicated. The precision required to hit it is too high. It's like practicing way beyond the three point line shots in basketball. Yes its effective when you can hit them. But so what.. 99% of players would be better off practicing layups and foul line extended jumpers or - a three in the corner.

What invariably happens to players who work on this 'junk' style of game is that they end up hit floaty shots - or they miss alot. That's simply the physics involved. Its just harder to hit this shot - much in the way its just harder to hit 3 point shots that are well beyond the arc.

At first it seems very effective because the change of pace will throw lessor opponents. But better opponents quickly adjust and can punish the floaty ones. And the hard driving ones you rave about aren't that easy to hit.

Learning topspin shots OTOH is not only easier - but its far more forgiving of a shot. If you don't have the angle face exactly right on contact you can stil hit a good shot. You can hit effective topspin shots even if you don't play for a month. Try that with those monster "hard slice" shots your advocating..

This of course is why Fabrice was the exception and not the rule and the local "slice and dicer" at the park gets pummeled by any and modern kid on the college team.

Rec tennis really is all about the execution. I'd rather have one absolute "weapon" then a bunch of mediocre 'variety'..
Sure don't get me wrong its pretty cool to see those 50 something guys out there slice and dicing people apart. But I wouldn't model my game after em. It takes crazy skill to hit those shots - and even then you still run into tons of guys you can't beat with the style..

Are you so good you already hit wicked topspin shots that kick up crazy off of clay - and give people trouble in normal rallies? Do you hit with so much pace and spin the ball seems to kinda knock people over? If so by all means learn this shot. But if your a beginner/low intermediate I seriously think it can take you down the wrong path.. YMMV.

Pete

KenC
01-07-2010, 12:06 AM
Let's put this back in perspective. No one is advocating abandoning the topspin FH for slice. I personally spent too much time hitting thousands of topspin FHs to where I'm at the point where I feel comfortable wailing on them. I am not going to abandon a bread and butter shot.

Why do we spend time hitting BH slice? Why not instead wail on the BH with topspin? Because there is a time and place for BH slice. Why don't we just hit topspin serves? Because there is a time and place for slice serves.

Why is the forehand so different from the BH that slice is not needed? I personally drill 3:1 between my BH and FH just so that I don't have a weaker wing. Should I never hit a BH slice and continue to hit my BH harder with topspin?

Come on guys, tennis is becoming too one-dimensional. Let's add a little variety. Let's learn how to hit great approach shots and start to win points at the net again. Let's practice those lower percentage shots just to make the game more interesting. Just like the drop shot is having a resurgence in the last couple years, maybe a wicked slice FH may find its time and place on the court.

Hardserve
01-07-2010, 12:10 AM
Are you so good you already hit wicked topspin shots that kick up crazy off of clay - and give people trouble in normal rallies? Do you hit with so much pace and spin the ball seems to kinda knock people over? If so by all means learn this shot. But if your a beginner/low intermediate I seriously think it can take you down the wrong path.. YMMV.

Pete[/QUOTE]

No, No, oh for goodness sake, its just an approach shot, a defense against serves. and chip up around
the net. If using the guy's pace, yes it can zip a bit. But you don't go for broke on it. You have to
feel the shot, no its not a replacement of the topspin forehand to move the guy around. It's the approach shot.

Spinz
01-07-2010, 05:20 AM
The reason I'm assuming most people are posting here that they would "eat a forehand slice shot up" is because they haven't faced a real forehand slice shot. We aren't talking about a floating, slow shot with backspin - we are talking about a driven, hard shot that skids through the court and doesn't bounce hardly at all. This shot is hit about as hard as most topspin drives - it just stays extremely low.

.


Many people here haven't seen a real forehand or backhand slice shot (or real heavy topspin) from a very advanced player. If they had, there wouldn't be so many of these male pro versus female pro threads.

papa
01-07-2010, 06:21 AM
A good backhand slice does not "float" over the net with little pace nor does it sit up very much. Although I think a backhand slice easier, its very effective from both sides.

GuyClinch
01-07-2010, 06:38 AM
Come on guys, tennis is becoming too one-dimensional. Let's add a little variety. Let's learn how to hit great approach shots and start to win points at the net again. Let's practice those lower percentage shots just to make the game more interesting. Just like the drop shot is having a resurgence in the last couple years, maybe a wicked slice FH may find its time and place on the court.

I get it's fun to hit trick shots and throw your opponent off-guard. It can be more amusing then simply blowing a guy off the court with superior power and control.

However I watched Del Potro win the US open (alot of it in person) and I don't remember a whole lot of slice forehands..

There is a reason the game has evolved like this. its not because modern players are too stupid to use old school style tennis. Almost all of them can hit the shot your talking about and fairly well, IMHO. Its just not effective compared to the risks against higher level players.

Going to the net off approaches sounds fun but unless you hit VERY high level approach shots your going to get passed against good players. These high level approach shots are of course riskier to hit. So your doubling your risk with the difficult approach AND the still risking the chance of being passed.

I suppose it depends really on where you want to take your game. If you just want to screw around with your friends or whatever - its cool. If you want to really get better with your limited practice time I would get coached on something else.

Pete

KenC
01-07-2010, 08:23 AM
I suppose it depends really on where you want to take your game. If you just want to screw around with your friends or whatever - its cool. If you want to really get better with your limited practice time I would get coached on something else.

I think I understand where some of the posters are coming from. If they are 15 and already 5.5 players, well maybe they have a minuscule chance of turning pro, and thus they should start preparing themselves for players at the level of Federer, Nadal, maybe even JMDP. I'm 45 years old, have a career and a family and have zero chance of getting to the level of a professional. I missed that boat 30 years ago. None of my hitting buddies has a chance either, including the younger ones. But, we have fun and are getting better every day. We hit hard and are capable of mixing it up a bit and have some really interesting games. Good enough for me.

Oh, and the funny thing is, do you know how many idiots are out there practicing the Federer between the legs shot after a lob? Now, that's worthless. At least a FH slice can come in handy when pulled out wide to the forehand side. Watch this shot Federer's Outrageous Forehand Slice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftq9IhimOI)

user92626
01-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Its worse then that. What your saying essentially is that hard flat shots are very effective. That's basically what a phenomenal forehand slice shot is. That why you have to hit through the ball more rather then chop down on it..

I am saying that it's really a waste of time for rec players to even practice this shot - unless your extremely dedicated. The precision required to hit it is too high. It's like practicing way beyond the three point line shots in basketball. Yes its effective when you can hit them. But so what.. 99% of players would be better off practicing layups and foul line extended jumpers or - a three in the corner.

What invariably happens to players who work on this 'junk' style of game is that they end up hit floaty shots - or they miss alot. That's simply the physics involved. Its just harder to hit this shot - much in the way its just harder to hit 3 point shots that are well beyond the arc.

At first it seems very effective because the change of pace will throw lessor opponents. But better opponents quickly adjust and can punish the floaty ones. And the hard driving ones you rave about aren't that easy to hit.

Learning topspin shots OTOH is not only easier - but its far more forgiving of a shot. If you don't have the angle face exactly right on contact you can stil hit a good shot. You can hit effective topspin shots even if you don't play for a month. Try that with those monster "hard slice" shots your advocating..

This of course is why Fabrice was the exception and not the rule and the local "slice and dicer" at the park gets pummeled by any and modern kid on the college team.

Rec tennis really is all about the execution. I'd rather have one absolute "weapon" then a bunch of mediocre 'variety'..Sure don't get me wrong its pretty cool to see those 50 something guys out there slice and dicing people apart. But I wouldn't model my game after em. It takes crazy skill to hit those shots - and even then you still run into tons of guys you can't beat with the style..

Are you so good you already hit wicked topspin shots that kick up crazy off of clay - and give people trouble in normal rallies? Do you hit with so much pace and spin the ball seems to kinda knock people over? If so by all means learn this shot. But if your a beginner/low intermediate I seriously think it can take you down the wrong path.. YMMV.

Pete


Great post, Pete. :razz:

What's even more ironic is that rec or any non-pro players have far less court time than pro yet they chose to spend time learning this shot. LOL.

Hardserve
01-07-2010, 11:12 AM
"Its worse then that. What your saying essentially is that hard flat shots are very effective. That's basically what a phenomenal forehand slice shot is. That why you have to hit through the ball more rather then chop down on it.."

Just Play safe tennis?

Blah... Its fun to take risks....















.

papa
01-07-2010, 02:14 PM
I use it for my return of serves if I don't have the time to do a full swing to
drive And use it on the weak slow stuff that drops short in the court or sits up.
But you got to give some time for the shot to first load up before you do the silce.

So its best to mix it up and bring it out every now and again in a rally
to use on any slow balls along with your topspin so you got time to
load the shot.

Yes, no question about it. Unless you mix it up and your opponent realizes it, your in big trouble.

KenC
01-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Guys, I wouldn't just assume because someone wants to add a few tools to the tool chest that they don't know how to pound nails. With today's racquets anyone can bang out topspin forehands, including my grandmother. I personally find it boring and one-dimensional to just stay back at the baseline and launch missiles. At the level of players I play with, anyone who is just trying to imitate JMDP is very quickly going to find he is pulled into the net. And we all know how great JMDP is at the net (he reminds me of Frankenstein).

At the 4.0 level and above any player better have (in addition to solid groundstrokes) some solid net play, drop shots, a backhand slice, topspin lobs, a slice serve, some defensive shots, in other words, a tool chest with tools other than just a hammer.

Zachol82
01-07-2010, 11:03 PM
...I really think that my signature shot is the forehand down the line that is 2 feet out, but that's another story. :confused: :)

Right on! :confused::oops:

KenC
01-07-2010, 11:46 PM
The precision required to hit it is too high. It's like practicing way beyond the three point line shots in basketball. Yes its effective when you can hit them. But so what.. 99% of players would be better off practicing layups and foul line extended jumpers or - a three in the corner.

What invariably happens to players who work on this 'junk' style of game is that they end up hit floaty shots - or they miss alot. That's simply the physics involved. Its just harder to hit this shot - much in the way its just harder to hit 3 point shots that are well beyond the arc.


Hey Pete, believe it or not, the forehand slice was taught in the late 70's early 80's as an approach shot. It's not as difficult as you may think. In fact, its probably easier to hit a decent FH slice than a decent FH drop shot. I remember my FH slice being just as easy as my BH slice. Anyway, the other day, 30 years later, I started practicing it just for fun and it came back to me very quickly and in no time I was hitting the deep angles and was able to hit CC into the service box angle.

So, yes its less percentage than a topspin shot, but it should be just about the same percentage as a BH slice.

GuyClinch
01-08-2010, 12:13 AM
Guys, I wouldn't just assume because someone wants to add a few tools to the tool chest that they don't know how to pound nails. With today's racquets anyone can bang out topspin forehands, including my grandmother. I personally find it boring and one-dimensional to just stay back at the baseline and launch missiles. At the level of players I play with, anyone who is just trying to imitate JMDP is very quickly going to find he is pulled into the net. And we all know how great JMDP is at the net (he reminds me of Frankenstein).

The problem is people who concentrate on many "tools" end up with a tool chest with a rusty screwdriver, a dull knife and a hammer with a busted handle.

I have NEVER seen a 3.5 player with a powerful solid forehand. If they had one they wouldn't be 3.5. Most low level players with 'variety' are just pushers. Here is why..

They are relying on spin and change of pace to throw their opponent off. Whereas a pro player they don't need any such gimmicks. They use pace and control to work a point -get a guy out of position and punish them for it. It's simple - its elegant, and it works.

There is no 'defense" against this tatic. There is no need for any variety - outside of your basic spin control (pros hit from floating moonballs to flatter attacking shots). And FWIW hitting massive forehands like JMDP gets plenty of oohs and ahhs from the crowd and strikes me as ten times as fun as messing around with forehand slice approaches.

The only thing "boring" about hitting 135 MPH serves and 100 MPH forehands is that I can't do it. :P What's interesting about tennis is on the boards you here the moaning about the lack of variety in today's game. But when you watch the game in person guys like JMDP and Roddick are very popular.

You can't tell me that on a pure tennis level its not more fun to watch JMDP in person then it is to watch Wozniacki - and she is pretty..

Forget the good old days - its kinda hard to watch a Borg match on TV...bleck. Gimme Fed, Nadal Del Potro any day..

Pete

KenC
01-08-2010, 05:17 AM
I have NEVER seen a 3.5 player with a powerful solid forehand. If they had one they wouldn't be 3.5. Most low level players with 'variety' are just pushers.

That's a key point. A beginner or an advanced beginner should be working on developing strong, consistent groundstrokes (including a BH slice) and a slice serve. An intermediate player should continue to develop the above but start to add a flat serve, a topspin serve, approach shots, net play, drop shots, defensive shots, topspin lobs, etc. In other words, start to develop an all-court game.

I think I understand why many 4.0+ players here have so much trouble against pushers. A pusher is able to take away a baseline basher's game and when the basher looks in his tool chest for an alternative all he finds is the same old hammer. Meanwhile, if he were to dedicate some of his practice to approach shots and net play he would discover how easy it is to beat a pusher. Or he could hit drop shots and chip shots and bring the pusher to the net and then discover how scared a pusher is to be at the net and how bad they volley.

I still say tennis is, and will always be, a game of strategy, not power. Power is just one component of this complex game. I would rather have a variety of useful tools rather than just a sledgehammer in my tool chest.

GuyClinch
01-08-2010, 07:01 AM
I think I understand why many 4.0+ players here have so much trouble against pushers. A pusher is able to take away a baseline basher's game and when the basher looks in his tool chest for an alternative all he finds is the same old hammer. Meanwhile, if he were to dedicate some of his practice to approach shots and net play he would discover how easy it is to beat a pusher. Or he could hit drop shots and chip shots and bring the pusher to the net and then discover how scared a pusher is to be at the net and how bad they volley.

1) Solid 4.0's don't have trouble with pushers (dinkers).

2) You CANNOT take away a power players game. its not built on just pace. its built on hitting the ball hard to places said player cannot defend. I don't care if your Nadal or Monfils. If the ball is well struck - repeatedly - all the speed in the world won't help you. Sooner or later the pusher or "variety" player hits a ball back thats not good enough and they get punished and lose the point.

I still say tennis is, and will always be, a game of strategy, not power. Power is just one component of this complex game. I would rather have a variety of useful tools rather than just a sledgehammer in my tool chest.

Yeah the problem is you don't have a sledgehammer now do you... LMAO.

I don't really agree with your theory on tennis either. If you get a chance to either hit with or watch high level tennis players its mostly about athleticism and skill. The strategies they employ are often identical.. It very often comes down to one guy just executing the same strategy better then the other.

It's similiar at the rec level - except that the skill levels of the rec player are often so low they can't bring the athleticism advantages they have into play that well..

I'd compare tennis to basketball. Sure you might have different "games" but the basic strategy employed in a one on one game doesn't vary much. So there again it doesn't really matter which guy is the "thinker" as it often comes down to which player has more skill and athleticism. You might have a nifty "set" shot but its not going to matter if its always getting stuffed back in your face by some dude that's 6'6" and has a 40 inch vertical.

I have shot around with a few NBDL players types who don't seem terrifically bright but the will own me on the basketball court. There are plenty of tennis players out there like that.. It not chess. its a sport.. Del Potro is the poster boy for this guy of athletic domination. Its not that his strategy is that different then all the other baseline bashers. Its just that he was able to execute it better - with his size, skill and athleticism.

Pete

SirSweetSpot
01-08-2010, 07:30 AM
1) Solid 4.0's don't have trouble with pushers (dinkers).

2) You CANNOT take away a power players game. its not built on just pace. its built on hitting the ball hard to places said player cannot defend. I don't care if your Nadal or Monfils. If the ball is well struck - repeatedly - all the speed in the world won't help you. Sooner or later the pusher or "variety" player hits a ball back thats not good enough and they get punished and lose the point.



Yeah the problem is you don't have a sledgehammer now do you... LMAO.

I don't really agree with your theory on tennis either. If you get a chance to either hit with or watch high level tennis players its mostly about athleticism and skill. The strategies they employ are often identical.. It very often comes down to one guy just executing the same strategy better then the other.

It's similiar at the rec level - except that the skill levels of the rec player are often so low they can't bring the athleticism advantages they have into play that well..

I'd compare tennis to basketball. Sure you might have different "games" but the basic strategy employed in a one on one game doesn't vary much. So there again it doesn't really matter which guy is the "thinker" as it often comes down to which player has more skill and athleticism. You might have a nifty "set" shot but its not going to matter if its always getting stuffed back in your face by some dude that's 6'6" and has a 40 inch vertical.

I have shot around with a few NBDL players types who don't seem terrifically bright but the will own me on the basketball court. There are plenty of tennis players out there like that.. It not chess. its a sport.. Del Potro is the poster boy for this guy of athletic domination. Its not that his strategy is that different then all the other baseline bashers. Its just that he was able to execute it better - with his size, skill and athleticism.

Pete

Here here...well said.

KenC
01-08-2010, 08:33 AM
Well Pete, it sounds like you know something I don't, so I'm going to start drilling on making my groundstrokes and serve to be one bomb after another, so that I won't need an all-court game.

But I must ask, what do you do against a player that hits harder than you and with more precision? Please tell me how you compensate for your lack of ability in all other areas of tennis when playing other baseline bashers. If I'm going to abandon my all-court game in favor of the sledgehammer approach, I'll need to know this!

Hardserve
01-09-2010, 07:19 PM
Yes, no question about it. Unless you mix it up and your opponent realizes it, your in big trouble.

To me its a good doubles defence and in singles its a good approach shot...
I don't need three different ball tosses in different places to mix up all my serves with.
At the higher level the good players learn to disguise things to make it hard to read..

tribunal4555
01-09-2010, 07:34 PM
TBH, I think that having a forehand slice is not a bad idea. Every shot has its place. If one has limited court time, then of course one should emphasize the topspin forehand as it is the go-to shot in most situations. However, that does not make the slice any poorer or less needed of a shot. I like to think that even if I come up against players who are much stronger than I, I can still beat them. And that's because I use misdirection. Change of pace. Guile. People say that tennis is all about power and athleticism. But it's difficult for players to use their power if they can't get into a rhythm. Why get into a topspin rally with a player when you know they'll spank you nine times out of ten? I prefer to work a point, move them side to side, and mix up my shots. By preventing them from settling into a rhythm, more often than not, they will self destruct. Just playing solid tennis is enough to win 90% of the time. You don't need to knock the cover off the ball.

Hardserve
01-09-2010, 10:09 PM
TBH, I think that having a forehand slice is not a bad idea. Every shot has its place. If one has limited court time, then of course one should emphasize the topspin forehand as it is the go-to shot in most situations. However, that does not make the slice any poorer or less needed of a shot. I like to think that even if I come up against players who are much stronger than I, I can still beat them. And that's because I use misdirection. Change of pace. Guile. People say that tennis is all about power and athleticism. But it's difficult for players to use their power if they can't get into a rhythm. Why get into a topspin rally with a player when you know they'll spank you nine times out of ten? I prefer to work a point, move them side to side, and mix up my shots. By preventing them from settling into a rhythm, more often than not, they will self destruct. Just playing solid tennis is enough to win 90% of the time. You don't need to knock the cover off the ball.

I would like to hear what Bungalow Bill has to say about how I hit the slice and the contact point he uses... For All I hear from alot of you topspin guys is:

"oh its just too hard,"
"its an impossible shot to do"
"you can't keep the ball down in the court,"
"what a useless low percentage shot this is, its just always pops up all the time."

If you use the wrong timing with the ball then it will just screw up in the air for you and turn the ball into a hovering low little floater across the court instead of dropping in.

So If you see low little ufo's flying inches across the court when you slice then it Means you making progress, reduced some float, but you still need to reduce it some more
so you have to adjust your timing...

But if you use the right timing, then the ball will float just enough to lift up over the net and stay down and skid heavy through the court.

You must reduce all the float on the ball first before the shot is going to work,
if you don't know how to reduce all the float to get the control in the shot,
then you're best to stick with just your basic topspin driving....

LeeD
01-10-2010, 08:50 AM
OK, yesterday went to the courts and during DTL warmups on ad court, me lefty, I hit a few SW gripped DTL slices. Ball movement to the left (remember, me lefty) was over 2' side movement. My normal topspin groundie bounces about waist to chest high, that slice bounces about knee high at the baseline on a shot that I aimed between service line and baseline.
I didn't hit any much deeper, as that was my first day of trying DTL slice forehands. The ball was hit with more sidespin than backspin, hence the sideways bounce.
Take it or leave it, it's a very different shot than a topspin forehand.

tribunal4555
01-10-2010, 11:34 AM
I would like to hear what Bungalow Bill has to say about how I hit the slice and the contact point he uses... For All I hear from alot of you topspin guys is:

"oh its just too hard,"
"its an impossible shot to do"
"you can't keep the ball down in the court,"
"what a useless low percentage shot this is, its just always pops up all the time."

If you use the wrong timing with the ball then it will just screw up in the air for you and turn the ball into a hovering low little floater across the court instead of dropping in.

So If you see low little ufo's flying inches across the court when you slice then it Means you making progress, reduced some float, but you still need to reduce it some more
so you have to adjust your timing...

But if you use the right timing, then the ball will float just enough to lift up over the net and stay down and skid heavy through the court.

You must reduce all the float on the ball first before the shot is going to work,
if you don't know how to reduce all the float to get the control in the shot,
then you're best to stick with just your basic topspin driving....

I don't know if you're attempting to refute my points or agree with them.

Hardserve
01-10-2010, 03:26 PM
I don't know if you're attempting to refute my points or agree with them.

I changed to using the slice to hit a deep approach down the line because with topspin, sometimes the approach shot can fall short of the baseline in front of the guy and then you just get passed by the short angle backhand
crosscourt. So the approach has to be deep and penetrating

tribunal4555
01-10-2010, 03:40 PM
I changed to using the slice to hit a deep approach down the line because with topspin, sometimes the approach shot can fall short of the baseline in front of the guy and then you get passed. So it either has to drop in the midcourt to make the guy hit on the run
or stay deep in the baseline.

How does this relate in any way to my post???

LeeD
01-10-2010, 03:47 PM
Totally helps.
Discussion had slipped to whether or not to use the slice on the forehand side.
Answer is good.
You're not asking HOW to hit the shot.
Me, I wipe across my body producing more pure sidespin than underspin, so the ball stays low, skidds DTL ad court away from the opponent about 2' sideways, and makes him run that much farther for a low ball.
Did not use it today in 5 sets of doubles, but Rome wasn't built in one day.
Connors used this as his normal DTL forehand. Lots of McEnroe's DTL's are hit with lots of sidespin with very little wrist.

Hardserve
01-10-2010, 05:52 PM
Totally helps.
Discussion had slipped to whether or not to use the slice on the forehand side.
Answer is good.
You're not asking HOW to hit the shot.
Me, I wipe across my body producing more pure sidespin than underspin, so the ball stays low, skidds DTL ad court away from the opponent about 2' sideways, and makes him run that much farther for a low ball.
Did not use it today in 5 sets of doubles, but Rome wasn't built in one day.
Connors used this as his normal DTL forehand. Lots of McEnroe's DTL's are hit with lots of sidespin with very little wrist.

You wipe the racquet across your body for more pure sidespin on the ball?
Can you go into more detail with me on this? For I'm interested in
learning how for I was taught to hitting topspin with the window wiper
effect across the body to generate topspin. . So I have the basic foundation there.

But I would like to know how to generate pure sidespin with the racquet so I can improve my
game as I already have a good slice serve a basic topspin driving foundation there
but that's just not enough if I want to be playing in the top club grade that's why I'm playing
in the second top grade because I'm not yet strong enough.... So I need to know the
set up to hitting pure sidespin. Because I want to cause my a-grade trouble.

This pure sidespin you talking interests me because I wondered how to side spin
ball off a fast ball because underspin just dosen't generate enough spin.
IT WILL ON SLOW BALLS, but not with faster balls...
as the higher level players hit heavy and hard and deep.
just dosen't cut it at their level.

Hardserve
01-10-2010, 05:52 PM
How does this relate in any way to my post???

I was referring to the other guys who were complaining about how to do the FH
slice.

LeeD
01-10-2010, 06:45 PM
If a ball is coming in fast, I don't need to sidespin it, I can just hit it normal topspin.
The sidespin is for moving the opposition around when they give me time to prep.

Hardserve
01-10-2010, 07:59 PM
If a ball is coming in fast, I don't need to sidespin it, I can just hit it normal topspin.
The sidespin is for moving the opposition around when they give me time to prep.

Yes I do topspin as well if the ball is coming in too quick...

Leed I was taught the open stance way to swing across my body to generate flat pace with spin
on the forehand.

What grip are you using then to generate all your pure sidespin slice off the ball?

Are you using the same open stance swing that I'm using to finish across the body or using a
different stance?

How do we do this pure sidespin drive? Do we just need to only change the grip
somewhere in betwen semi-western and the Continental to get the slice in the
drive?

I know Semi tilts the strings downward a little and continental must open the face a bit
and tilt them up so I don't want the face too open or we get the ball skying up in the
air like a lob.





I'm interested to learn how to do this drive.

GuyClinch
01-10-2010, 11:11 PM
But I must ask, what do you do against a player that hits harder than you and with more precision?

The same you thing that will happen to you when you try to dazzle a superior player with your variety. I would lose.

Please tell me how you compensate for your lack of ability in all other areas of tennis when playing other baseline bashers. If I'm going to abandon my all-court game in favor of the sledgehammer approach, I'll need to know this!

LMAO. I know your not interested in changing your ways. Its great your having fun. But don't expect everyone to buy into this idea that variety is the best way to improve your game. I think that becoming excellent at the basics is the way to go..

I can hit reverse twist serves - I don't practice em and I don't hit them often in games because I don't think its worth spending my time on. Most people feel this way about a forehand slice. You CAN approach off a deep topspin shot too - so its not really necessary to build your game that way.

I didn't want to get into some great argument. My point was that there is an opportunity cost to learning a new shot for a rec player. I suppose we could all learn between your legs shots but it comes up so infrequently - why bother.

A pro - and those hated baseline bashers that probably went to Nick Bolleteri's academy..Now those guys its worth it for them to know those shots because they really have mastered the basic topspin drives..

Pete

KenC
01-10-2010, 11:29 PM
Yes I do as well if the ball is coming in too fast...

The kind of side spin slice that I'm looking for is one that continually swings the ball away from the guy
forcing him to have to run it down rather than taking a few steps to the
side to stop and drive it back because the ball suddenly died (as with the weaker underspin way).

So how do you do this pure sidespin slice to give the ball that swing?

I think you can approach it pretty much opposite to how you would hit a twist serve. Instead of hitting up on the ball from 7 o'clock to 1 o'clock, with the slice you would hit down from 1 to 7 in direction. For for a brutal sidespin you could do 2 to 8 but I suppose that is very difficult to pull off. Lefties do 11 to 5.

KenC
01-11-2010, 12:34 AM
LMAO. I know your not interested in changing your ways. Its great your having fun. But don't expect everyone to buy into this idea that variety is the best way to improve your game. I think that becoming excellent at the basics is the way to go..


Hey Pete, I'm just having fun. Actually I appreciate your posts and I do respect you opinion. I actually like that today's game is based on power and backcourt prowess and no one likes launching rockets more than me. With my leaded up PDGTs I can bang with the best of them.

I'd say we had a good rally going here, but you played hard and I can concede this point. I agree that great groundstrokes are the foundation of success in tennis; I'm just at the point where some opponents are capitalizing on my various weaknesses even though I have solid strokes. And I'm 45, not 17. There are a lot of good, younger players out there that hit harder than I do and move much faster than I do. I want to win without resorting to pushing moonballs at them. I still have my pride.

Honestly, I don't intend to dedicate a whole lot of time to the FH slice, as my time would be better spent developing a 140mph serve with 100% consistency. I will probably just get the fundamental mechanics down and then pull it out only when it would work better than topspin or there is nothing else I can do except launch a moonball.

I look forward to our next rally!

Davis937
01-11-2010, 04:38 AM
... in another thread I spoke about my difficulty with the FH return of serve ... I'm fine using my 2HBH (it's a more compact stroke), but make an enormous number of errors with my FH return (... probably due to insufficient preparation ... I hit my groundies with a fairly large loop swing ... although I try to "abbreviate" my FH return, I've been told that I still have too large of a swing ... my QUESTION: is it a good idea to learn the FH slice as an effective stroke for the service return ... I see other players ... hmmm ... either using the FH slice or "blocking" the return ... would appreciate any thoughts/comments on this ... thanks in advance for your help!!

LeeD
01-11-2010, 08:40 AM
I think we should use the forehand slice return of serve as a last second desperate return, not the normal return. If you opposition serves so fast you can' return it a couple games, better to slice it back at least to start the point. Grip up to you.
When I hit a forehand approach slice, it's SW grip for the sidespin, finish across the body as opposed to finish towards the opponent, so the ball skids and bounces away from the opponent. Slightly open stanced, as all my SW forehands seem to be.
If you change grip to Conti on the forehand approach, changes are your approach will be hit with more underspin, higher arc, and less side component. We want our approachs low and deep, with side component rather than backspin.
At least for me. Two days of this shot means I've hit less than 10 total. But years ago, I played the #2 for WashingtonHigh in SF, and that was his main forehand. Very effective with little effort compared to topspin forehands.

papa
01-11-2010, 11:10 AM
For some reason my last post was lost.

Although I agree with LeeD, at least most of it, I question trying to hit an effective slice with a SW grip - maybe he can do it but it wouldn't be something you would teach. Often what good players do, or think they do, should be credited to their athletism (sp?) and not something that newer player should learn.

Hardserve
01-11-2010, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=LeeD;4268017] When I hit a forehand approach slice, it's SW grip for the sidespin, finish across the body as opposed to finish towards the opponent, so the ball skids and bounces away from the opponent. Slightly open stanced, as all my SW forehands seem to be."

I'M A RIGHTY

I've now made the adjustments to finish across my body instead of finishing towards the opponent (net)...
The racquet is now finishing behind my head as a result. This looks like a a pro's finish for sidespin.
I remember some pros using this finish.

Hardserve
01-11-2010, 12:47 PM
For some reason my last post was lost.

Although I agree with LeeD, at least most of it, I question trying to hit an effective slice with a SW grip - maybe he can do it but it wouldn't be something you would teach. Often what good players do, or think they do, should be credited to their athletism (sp?) and not something that newer player should learn.

give the guy a chance, sounds like he knows what hes talking about here. I use SW so it should suit me.

Storm_Kyori
01-11-2010, 12:49 PM
i like using it with those high ts shot to my forehand. one of my hitting partners has a lot of topspin and he knows I can hit with pace so that shot along with a fh drop shot gets his really good.

Hardserve
01-11-2010, 04:37 PM
When I hit a forehand approach slice, it's SW grip for the sidespin, finish across the body as opposed to finish towards the opponent, so the ball skids and bounces away from the opponent. Slightly open stanced, as all my SW forehands seem to be.

Are you right handed or left? Is this an inside-out forehand drive ?

For I went down to the practice courts just now to test this slice forehand out, I finish on the LEFT side of my body so the result was the Ball veering off a foot or two over to the LEFT side when I drive down the backhand line it would hit crooked to the left by a few feet. When I hit it down the forehand side, the ball either stays straight or it veers off
crooked a few inches to the left. It won't sidespin right..... That when hitting it with the ordinary forehand, not hitting it inside out. There's still too much topspin on the ball with very little sidespin and that puzzles me because I am finishing across the left of my body from the right, but I noticed for inside out it was flattening it out more..

LeeD
01-11-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm lefty, so use the DTL sidespin forehand against your forehand.
I don't swing thru like a regular groundie. More like an extended volley stroke, locked wrist all the way thru, don't WW or pronate.
The sidespin seems to jump easily 2' off to the side after the bounce. Not good as an everyday forehand DTL, but great for a lower bouncing surprise shot that takes much less energy to hit than a DTL topspin forehand.

papa
01-11-2010, 06:00 PM
give the guy a chance, sounds like he knows what hes talking about here. I use SW so it should suit me.

I'm giving him a chance and I've come to think he does indeed know what he's talking about.

However, you might misunderstand what I was saying in my post. What a former gifted player did/does often is just not quite right, IMO, for what might work for a less experienced player today. The primary reason is racquet technology and head size. Its my opinion that having a SW grip on a slice gets the hand too low and produces weak responses. Yes, it can be done and if it works for you, stay with it.

Hardserve
01-11-2010, 07:07 PM
I'm lefty, so use the DTL sidespin forehand against your forehand.
I don't swing thru like a regular groundie. More like an extended volley stroke, locked wrist all the way thru, don't WW or pronate.
The sidespin seems to jump easily 2' off to the side after the bounce. Not good as an everyday forehand DTL, but great for a lower bouncing surprise shot that takes much less energy to hit than a DTL topspin forehand.

Is that 2 inches, 2 Feet, or 2 Metres?

What I understand is that you finish across the body out to the side instead of finishing out in front
with your volley if you hit this with a volley so it goes flat and spins out to the right a few feet....

Ok that's probably right for the volley to put the sidspin element on it.

What happens then when I just take your forehand slice shot and just add it into my groundstroke?

Sharper tighter angles around the court when I hit crosscourt with the forehand, when going DTL the
ball wants to hug close to the sideline more before crossing into the doubles alley.

I hit both Normal Forehand and with my runaround Inside out Forehand

Quite useful

For now I have topspin with crooked sidespin element that hits left. So its useful for inside-out forehand.

LeeD
01-12-2010, 08:29 AM
My forehand sidespin groundie is the result of injured shoulders, so I have trouble with topspinning an incoming ball that is higher than my eyes.
SW grip, slightly open stance, longer than volley stroke, usually DTL, the ball curves left (me lefty) a little over two feet from it's original arc. Thru the air curve some, most after bouncing, and skidding low.
I start out with the racket held wide left (me lefty), and after the followthru, the racket handle is just to the right side of my body. Outside in slice/sidespin action.
On shots slightly lower, like chest high, this shot has lots of pace and bite, almost like a rally groundie in pace.
The shots hit around face heights don't have as much ball speed, and might have more sidespin action.
Not saying it's a normal forehand, not saying it's something everyone should learn. But for me, a shorter swing is easier on my body, and more accurate especially after a long run out wide to my forehand side.

Hardserve
01-12-2010, 02:02 PM
My forehand sidespin groundie is the result of injured shoulders, so I have trouble with topspinning an incoming ball that is higher than my eyes.
SW grip, slightly open stance, longer than volley stroke, usually DTL, the ball curves left (me lefty) a little over two feet from it's original arc. Thru the air curve some, most after bouncing, and skidding low.
I start out with the racket held wide left (me lefty), and after the followthru, the racket handle is just to the right side of my body. Outside in slice/sidespin action.
On shots slightly lower, like chest high, this shot has lots of pace and bite, almost like a rally groundie in pace.
The shots hit around face heights don't have as much ball speed, and might have more sidespin action.
Not saying it's a normal forehand, not saying it's something everyone should learn. But for me, a shorter swing is easier on my body, and more accurate especially after a long run out wide to my forehand side.

I didn't know you had a shoulder injury.

When I do the slice with the volley I do not run up into the ball and release the racquet
all at the same time because I found that makes it difficult to hit.

So When I do this slice with the volley, I get the racquet up and lay the racquet
back early so the butt is pointing at the ball while its still coming over the net, so early
preparation is needed, then I run into the ball with it in that position, then when I
get close enough to the ball, I then release the racquet from its waiting position
into the ball.

That's how I hit the slice with the volley.

LeeD
01-12-2010, 02:24 PM
Hmm...
I never run into any of my shots. My feet are planted or jumped in the air, but not moving forwards.
Also, for this particular shot, as in my volleys, I never point the butt of my racket to the ball. Just too much backswing for me. Seems a short backswing works for a sidespin groundie as well as for a normal volley.
At least for me.

Hardserve
01-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Hmm...
I never run into any of my shots. My feet are planted or jumped in the air, but not moving forwards.
Also, for this particular shot, as in my volleys, I never point the butt of my racket to the ball. Just too much backswing for me. Seems a short backswing works for a sidespin groundie as well as for a normal volley.
At least for me.

Well I can use the backhand slice if I want to..
I had another hit today with someone and gone is the plain topspin I used to have
for its changed to a more twisting spin on the ball and getting better tighter
angles as a result when I hit crosscourt. I like this twisting spin. Better than my old way.

LeeD
01-13-2010, 11:35 AM
????
Me, I can only use my backhand slice if the ball is over the backhand side of my court.
For a forehand slice, which is actually a sidespin shot, the ball is well over to my left (me lefty), so I can't use my backhand!

Hardserve
01-13-2010, 12:54 PM
????
Me, I can only use my backhand slice if the ball is over the backhand side of my court.
For a forehand slice, which is actually a sidespin shot, the ball is well over to my left (me lefty), so I can't use my backhand!

Now I've changed my forehand and seeing better placement of the ball.

But sometimes it pays to study the pros because pictures speak a thousand words.


Anyone else been under the Bolliteri system?

Do they make players do press ups on the ground for punishment?
My coach does.