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normrose
01-08-2010, 12:02 PM
I have noticed that the pros appear to lay back the wrist at the point just before brushing up the back of the ball. What is achieved by doing this?

user92626
01-08-2010, 12:46 PM
Here we go again with the laid back wrist :)

What is achieved is more power from being whippy with the shot.

Do not try to copy Fed or any pro for that matter in this department. Their wrists lays back quite naturally to their physical flexibilty. You can try to add wrist to your FH as well but do it at the amount that you're not stretched. At time goes, your wrist will get stronger and more disciplined and next thing you know you have a wrist like Fed.

Ok, how I use the wrist is like....grip the racket with your favorite grip, sw for me, and bounce the ball against the ground in front of you like pre-serve ritual but using mainly the wrist as the moving part. Bounce the ball fast and keep the wrist as elastically as possible. That's the wrist action that I can employ in my FH with great effect.

Bungalo Bill
01-08-2010, 01:29 PM
Here we go again with the laid back wrist :)

What is achieved is more power from being whippy with the shot.

Do not try to copy Fed or any pro for that matter in this department. Their wrists lays back quite naturally to their physical flexibilty. You can try to add wrist to your FH as well but do it at the amount that you're not stretched. At time goes, your wrist will get stronger and more disciplined and next thing you know you have a wrist like Fed.

Ok, how I use the wrist is like....grip the racket with your favorite grip, sw for me, and bounce the ball against the ground in front of you like pre-serve ritual but using mainly the wrist as the moving part. Bounce the ball fast and keep the wrist as elastically as possible. That's the wrist action that I can employ in my FH with great effect.

Yup, here we go again. :cry:

user92626
01-08-2010, 01:40 PM
Yup, here we go again. :cry:

A Bill with few words? That's unheard of! :) hehe j/k

normrose
01-08-2010, 03:03 PM
Yup, here we go again. :cry:

But as always informative LOL

JohnYandell
01-08-2010, 03:42 PM
This is a complex and important topic. There is no doubt that one of the changes at the top of the game is the more relaxed swing styles and the huge variety of wiper and reverse finishes.

What high speed video shows however, is that the wrist is still laid back on the vast majority of pro shots--90% plus. This angle can vary between roughly 45 and 90 degrees. Federer, Agassi, Del Potro, Roddick, name just about any big time forehand, and the point applies even more at lower levels.

Some players with extreme grips reach the neutral wrist position more often, such as Nadal, but this requires extreme body rotation to keep the contact in front.

Everyone of course should play as they desire, but my experience in filming hundreds of players at all levels is that improving the hitting arm structure--including learning to make contact with the wrist laid back often results in huge power gains with significantly reduced effort.

It often true that the wrist angle will decrease in the forward swing, but often times not--in fact it can actually increase after contact.

Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

I think it's better to get the positions right first if you have problems with your forehand. Once they are sound you can work on moving through them staying as relaxed as possible.

normrose
01-08-2010, 07:34 PM
This is a complex and important topic. There is no doubt that one of the changes at the top of the game is the more relaxed swing styles and the huge variety of wiper and reverse finishes.

What high speed video shows however, is that the wrist is still laid back on the vast majority of pro shots--90% plus. This angle can vary between roughly 45 and 90 degrees. Federer, Agassi, Del Potro, Roddick, name just about any big time forehand, and the point applies even more at lower levels.

Some players with extreme grips reach the neutral wrist position more often, such as Nadal, but this requires extreme body rotation to keep the contact in front.

Everyone of course should play as they desire, but my experience in filming hundreds of players at all levels is that improving the hitting arm structure--including learning to make contact with the wrist laid back often results in hug power gains with significantly reduced effort.

It often true that the wrist angle will decrease in the forward swing, but often times not--in fact it can actually increase after contact.

Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

I think it's better to get the positions right first if you have problems with your forehand. Once they are sound you can work on moving through them staying as relaxed as possible.

An interesting thread thanks for your input John.

Bungalo Bill
01-10-2010, 08:50 AM
But as always informative LOL

Yes, normrose, you are correct in that it is always informative.

Just understand that the hand is what moves forward. The wrist remains elastic so that can happen. The hand does not come forward all the way before or at contact. This is still in process and will happen towards the followthrough. However, the hand does come forward because it just has to when other body elements such as the arm and shoulder rotation is slowing down. It is very difficult to see just how much the hand has come forward from when a player starts to bring his racquet forward to when contact is made. It is so small and short. However, it is necessary for increased power.

I mean really, what are we talking about in distance? From when a player is at the racquet drop and brings the racquet forward, how many feet are we talking about from there to contact? So, the arm has to slow down within this distance enough to allow the hand to move forward. That isn't much distance at all. Therefore, the distance of the hand moving forward to contact is going to be very short.

If you can understand how your head goes back when you punch it in a Porsche and then as the acceleration rate decreases, you will understand that your head starts to come back forward.

In tennis, when you have an elastic wrist area, the hand is allowed to layback because of your forward motion with the racquet towards contact. As your elbow moves in front of the body plane, the acceleration rate of your arm slows down. As this slows down, your hand begins to come forward. However, the distance it comes forward from when you began bringing the racquet forward to contact is about an inch or two at most and that varies.

What is misunderstood by players is that the energy that is transferred into the ball within this short distance is a lot! It is the finishing touch to what you have done with the kinetic chain. And because it is such a short distance it is easily manageable to help with control of the racquet head and your swing.

As John said, video evidence shows the hand many times still laid back as the racquet makes contact, what is difficult to see is how much the hand has moved forward even though it is technically still laidback.

Acceleration of the hand coming forward because the rate of acceleration is decreasing in the arm and shoulder rotation can reach its peak extremely quickly in a very short distance.

In other words, even though the hand still looks laid back, even the slightest movement forward can transfer a lot of energy into the ball which is what the player wants. It is the very tip of the whip in other words. When thinking of this stuff, you have to be thinking about the acceleration rate and not necessarily the distance the hand travels. The hand could be technically still in the laidback position, but if it moved forward even a 3/4 of an inch, what was the acceleration rate and was it still accelerating right up to contact. Because if it was, this fulfills what you are trying to do with the kinetic chain and accelerating appropriately through contact.

5263
01-10-2010, 09:00 AM
Just understand that the hand is what moves forward.

What is misunderstood by players is that the energy that is transferred into the ball within this short distance is a lot!
In other words, even though the hand still looks laid back, even the slightest movement forward can transfer a lot of energy into the ball

JY quote-
Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

Serious question,
Is 1% a lot in this case or do you not agree with this study?
Or am I not understanding the results of the study?
Just curious of you POV on this.

LeeD
01-10-2010, 09:04 AM
Studies are often misleading, like weathermen.
Did you know, when predicting weather, weathermen are not allowed to look outside?
As in studies! Talking pure mechanicals compared to human physiology is TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS!
Studies don't account for some things like the hinge in the kinetic group. Without it, it don't work.

Bungalo Bill
01-10-2010, 09:05 AM
JY quote-
Biomechanical studies by Brian Gordon show that any forward wrist movement makes a minimal (about 1% !) contribution to racket head speed.

Serious question,
Is 1% a lot in this case or do you not agree with this study?
Or am I not understanding the results of the study?
Just curious of you POV on this.

Yes, I do agree with Brians study. Why wouldn't I? I have already said I agreed with his studies. For the post you are trying to isolate here, it is probably better if you would consider all the other posts I have written about concerning the wrist area and that includes the emphasis one places in the role of the wrist as well as how it works. Therefore, you can take the above post in context and not out of context.

I am not talking about overall comparison to what body segment contributes to the most racquet head speed. Of course shoulder rotation and other segments will contribute should be considered. I often mention shoulder rotation, leg involvement, torso involvement, arm, etc...as part of the kinetic chain that contributes to racquet acceleration.

We even go into balance, technique, use of the non-dominant arm all geared to squeeze out as much effortless racquet acceleration as possible. I don't have any clue why you would not consider this except that you are just putting up a cheap shot and taking things out of context like you normally do.

I am talking about that a 1% addition to racquet head speed for such a short distance of travel (one inch or less) is a lot in and of itself. I also explained above that the distance we are talking about is extremely short. Most importantly, for those that are concerned that the body should work naturally and fluidly, maintaining an elastic wrist is necessary and does contribute to power whether it is 1% or more.

And 1% is 1%. Whether we can measure that this precisely is another story. However, for players looking to maximize their technique and develop the most efficient and effective stroke possible, allowing the hand to move forward and contribute to racquet head accelleration is what a player needs to do if these are their goals.

The racquet in and of itself should be accelerating as it heads to contact. The hand has not released yet. However, at the precise moment that shoulder rotation starts to slow and the arm slows, the hand begins to move forward (it starts to accelerate) and continues or even slightly increases racquet head acceleration. This contirbutes to power.

You don't want the wrist area to add a lot of power as compared to other body segments. This would go against everything that the good coaches here have said and that is to not force the use of the hand in the shot. However, for such a short distance of travel, the acceleration it does add is very efficient and effective.

Blake0
01-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Here's a video to see what BB told us about above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk
Watch his wrist lay back at contact..but after he hits the ball and going into his followthrough his hand brushes up the back of the ball because of the forearm pronation, then after the pronation, you can see his wrist release his hand forward. Make sure you don't snap your wrist forward, though. I think the furthest it should release forward to maintain control consistently is about as much federer has done it in this video.

5263
01-10-2010, 04:18 PM
Yes, I do agree with Brians study. Why wouldn't I? I have already said I agreed with his studies. For the post you are trying to isolate here, it is probably better if you would consider all the other posts I have written about concerning the wrist area and that includes the emphasis one places in the role of the wrist as well as how it works. Therefore, you can take the above post in context and not out of context.



Actually was trying to put this into context of what I've read from you, and would agree you have been pretty consistent with what you have said. Was just trying to understand if you were in agreement with this study or not, as I would not of thought of 1% as a lot of power added to the shot. But seems your position on this is pretty clear that 1% is alot of power added in this small range of motion, thanks.

JohnYandell
01-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Maybe Brian can speak for himself. But to me the point is that the wrist action (the forward motion versus the hand and arm rotation) is a passive element and it may or may not move. I think it can function kind of like a hinge--it moves depending on the forces exerted, but it isn't really generating them.

But you can find plenty of examples were it is fully 90 degrees laid back well after the hit on absolute rocket pro forehands. So it can't be a necessary element in a good forehand. In fact the opposite--finding a comfortable laid back position is the way to go.

I think people can focus on the wrist factor to the exclusion of other factors. But it is often my experience that they have more fundamental problems in the turn, timing of contact, extension etc. Again, my experience, these factors have the potential to generate huge power and spin gains while reducing overall effort.

5263
01-12-2010, 01:51 PM
Maybe Brian can speak for himself. But to me the point is that the wrist action (the forward motion versus the hand and arm rotation) is a passive element and it may or may not move. I think it can function kind of like a hinge--it moves depending on the forces exerted, but it isn't really generating them.

But you can find plenty of examples were it is fully 90 degrees laid back well after the hit on absolute rocket pro forehands. So it can't be a necessary element in a good forehand. In fact the opposite--finding a comfortable laid back position is the way to go.

I think people can focus on the wrist factor to the exclusion of other factors. But it is often my experience that they have more fundamental problems in the turn, timing of contact, extension etc. Again, my experience, these factors have the potential to generate huge power and spin gains while reducing overall effort.

Very well stated IMO.

papa
01-13-2010, 05:49 AM
Well, this is an area where I've also been a little confused. When we talk about the "hinge effect" are we referring to the force at contact which pushes the hand back (like a shock absorber);or are we talking about what happens to the wrist as the body rotates through the shot independent of the ball; or, is it something intentionally done just prior to contact?

I must admit that I am a big believer in keeping the wrist laid back and have even developed some devices to aid in this learning process. Its not an easy concept to teach depending on the student. Just getting them to bring the butt forward first and stop rotating the racquet around the back hip seems like a major task. I guess most of the time, like many others, we spend most of our time working on the first 99% of the stroke. I find that when this subject comes up, and it often does, the slightest agreement on my part that "yes" the wrist is involved, all of a sudden everything else goes to pieces. So, I've taken the position now, like on the serve, that I don't want to even talk about the wrist until everything else is in place.

Opinions??

Bungalo Bill
01-13-2010, 02:19 PM
Because of the lighter pressure on the handle most pros or player have, the wrist will have elasticity in it.

The speed at which the arm moves forward will keep the hand laid back more for an appropriate distance of time. However, it does not mean energy is not transferred or is non existent from the hand because we didn't see it move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVTmGJ7pFzU

The hand indeed should be allowed to move forward through your swing as evident here. It should be allowed to move forward whether you allow it to or not!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFibX-inICg&NR=1

Follow the hand in this shot and watch how it lays back when the racquet is brought forward and starts to release forward through contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I8g4dLVWh8&feature=related

The wrist release will not have a full blown release every single time when someone swings a forehand!!!!! Quit thinking this way!!!

The wrist is passive in nature, therefore, what is attached to it will happen depending on the forces affecting it!!!! Having an elastic wrist mainly comes from the grip pressure you have on the handle.

If you swing real fast forward do you think the hand will catch up quickly at contact????? Probably not!! If I step on it in a Porsche trying to get to 60 miles an hour by hit a wall when I reach 40mph as I am accelerating, would my head begin to move forward prior to hitting the wall? Maybe!!! That depends!

It is what you should manage that is most important and not whether or not the hand travelled far enough forward!!!

Depending on the emphasis in your swing a body part that is passive should allow things to happen. This is a wrist release. It is definetly real and pros release the hand forward PASSIVELY all the time! They make use of what the body natural gives them to utilize to help them hit effortlessly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAtPsPnZ7M0&feature=related

ttbrowne
01-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Here we go again...oops, you already said that.

JohnYandell
01-13-2010, 05:18 PM
I actually think we are all pretty much in agreement here. BB describes the reality of what can happen--or the range of things--and the video proves what he says.

I agree though with papa that trying to teach or even mentioning something like "wrist release" is a hugely loaded term that is widely misunderstood and can cause potential problems, especially for lower level players. This is especially true when we have every commentator on television screaming about the flick of the wrist...

I think that it is better to get a feeling for hitting with the wrist as laid back as possible because, yes, you do hit the ball with your hand, the palm of your hand. If you can feel the simplicity and solidity of driving the racket head through the shot with the wrist laid back, which brings the palm fully into play, that's the foundation. If you get that everything else follows.

aimr75
01-13-2010, 05:36 PM
I actually think we are all pretty much in agreement here. BB describes the reality of what can happen--or the range of things--and the video proves what he says.

I agree though with papa that trying to teach or even mentioning something like "wrist release" is a hugely loaded term that is widely misunderstood and can cause potential problems, especially for lower level players. This is especially true when we have every commentator on television screaming about the flick of the wrist...

I think that it is better to get a feeling for hitting with the wrist as laid back as possible because, yes, you do hit the ball with your hand, the palm of your hand. If you can feel the simplicity and solidity of driving the racket head through the shot with the wrist laid back, which brings the palm fully into play, that's the foundation. If you get that everything else follows.

Is what you describe essentially reflective in my stroke in these still images?

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/738/swingv.jpg

JohnYandell
01-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Yeah looks like. If I am seeing it right, the wrist is super laid back and then less at the contact, finally "releasing" more somewhere out there in the follow thru.