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View Full Version : NTRP 3.49 vs 3.0 = 6-0,6-0


W Cats
01-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Just heard an interesting USTA reference on an Essential Tennis podcast that the difference between someone at the beginning of a rating vs someone at the end of the rating ready to move to the next level, example 3.0 vs.3.49, 3.5 vs.3.99, would be a match where by the stronger player wins 6-0, 6-0.

Zachol82
01-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Not really anything special. I bet you a 1.0 vs a 5.5 would also result in a 6-0, 6-0 for the stronger player.

J/k. This is interesting stuff.

Jay27
01-12-2010, 06:32 PM
I'm not sure I'd agree with the 3.5 and and the 3.99 ending at 0 and 0. I think that a strong 3.5 player can get a game or two from the 3.99 player. However, I think a 3.0 would get double bagled from a 3.49 player...

I'm a strong 3.5 player (playing on both 4.0 and 3.5 teams) and have been in these exact situations last year. Went 3 and 1 with a decent 4.5 player (he was pretty awesome in my terms, but he got beat a good bit in the 4.5 leagues) and double bagled a 3.0 player that had just moved to the 3.5 league (last season). I've got a good serve and pretty sound groundies. Weak points for me are volleying faster paced balls and backhand can break down after a rally of 3 or 4 balls (against stronger players). JMO

rk_sports
01-12-2010, 08:26 PM
Hmm.. do I hear 'sandbagging' somewhere? ;)

Ambivalent
01-12-2010, 08:34 PM
This is false, because I have seen an ATP 3.5 player double fault an entire game.

mucat
01-12-2010, 08:39 PM
I always though a 1.0 different would result in 6-0, 6-0 and that is not always but most likely.

mtommer
01-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Just heard an interesting USTA reference on an Essential Tennis podcast that the difference between someone at the beginning of a rating vs someone at the end of the rating ready to move to the next level, example 3.0 vs.3.49, 3.5 vs.3.99, would be a match where by the stronger player wins 6-0, 6-0.

Did the podcast mention the quality of play? A 6-0, 6-0 where the two players exchange rallies is far better competitively than if the higher rated player is so dominate that the lower rated player can't even get a racquet on a ball.

Zachol82
01-12-2010, 10:07 PM
This is false, because I have seen an ATP 3.5 player double fault an entire game.

Really? They can't really be 3.5 then. I thought in order to be a 3.5 player, you must have all the fundamentals down and have pretty good consistency as well. Maybe not a lot of winners or flashy shots...but at least consistency, not to mention consistency on something as important as serves.

Ken Honecker
01-13-2010, 03:36 AM
How much more consistence can you get then DF every time? Ha ha! Something like that might have more to do with pig headedness then lack of a shot. Some people insist on playing "their" game whether it happens to be working or not.

raiden031
01-13-2010, 03:49 AM
I've read from more than one source that one service break is equivalent to about a 0.06 rating differential.

A double bagel is 6 breaks, which equates to a 0.36 rating differential between opponents.

Double bagels are special cases because they don't really tell you alot because someone who double bagels you could be as low as 0.36 above you or much higher theoretically. This is why double bagels do not count towards your dynamic rating.

Even though its true that a top level player should be able to double bagel a bottom level player, it seldom works like that. I have trouble double-bageling someone 2 levels below me. The reasons being that players rarely play at the same level of tennis for an entire match. I always finding myself blowing games here and there, and also find myself unbeatable (relatively speaking) for some games.

Steady Eddy
01-13-2010, 06:49 AM
I don't think you can make make score predictions. Generally, the more lopsided the score the less even the players are, but it' hard to say anything more. Probability allows for improbable streaks every now and then. Sometimes two players at very different levels will have a 6-3 set! Then a player will bagel one at the same level as himself. In pro tennis you'll see a qualifier get a set off of an established star. Don't worry about the score. If you're the better player just be glad if you win and don't expect yourself to bagel them or anything like that. One match or set isn't the perfect indicator of how good the players are.

Sublime
01-13-2010, 07:12 AM
I don't think this is correct at all. I think at the lower levels (2.5 - 3.5) there is a lot of overlap. An upper half 2.5 player can beat a lower half 3.0 and have a semi-competitive match with a lower half 3.5.

In my experience up to the 4.0-4.5 level no one is consistent enough to beat anyone 6-0 6-0.

W Cats
01-13-2010, 07:22 AM
Thought I would go on the USTA websight to see if I could track it down. Here it is under FAQ of NTPR ratings.

31. Are all players in a given NTRP level equal in ability?
No …The NTRP system identifies general levels of ability, but an individual will
be rated within those levels at 50 different hundredths of a point. For example, a
3.5 player can fall anywhere between a 3.01 and a 3.50. That is the reason many
people feel they are playing sandbaggers – they are closer to the bottom of that
range while their opponents are closer to the top of the range. A typical match
result for a player, for example, with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49 player, both of
whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player

http://www.usta.com/USTA/Global/Active/Custom%20Pages/Leagues/~/media/USTA/Document%20Assets/Leagues_and_Tournaments/Leagues/NTRP_FAQ.ashx

ttbrowne
01-13-2010, 07:35 AM
Should be followed by....*in a perfect world.

tennisdad65
01-13-2010, 07:37 AM
I have never beaten anyone 6-0, 6-0 and I have played guys 1+ NTRP below me.
I have never lost to anyone 6-0, 6-0 and I have played guys 1+ NTRP above me.

If you are up big against a player 1 NTRP below you, you tend to get bored, feel pity etc.., lose concentration..

tfm1973
01-13-2010, 08:25 AM
In my experience up to the 4.0-4.5 level no one is consistent enough to beat anyone 6-0 6-0.

i'm a computer rated 4.0 player. i've beaten quite a few 3.5 players 6-0, 6-0. i've also beaten 3 computer rated 4.0 players 6-0, 6-0. not sure if that means i'm on the upper end of 4.0 but in my experiences, there is quite a range within any NTRP level.

could also be my style. a little quicker than the average bear so i can cover a lot of court. can grind it out and slice and dice and junk it up when needed. win way more points on opponent's unforced errors. decent serve nets me a couple of easy holds. YMMV.

raiden031
01-13-2010, 09:06 AM
i'm a computer rated 4.0 player. i've beaten quite a few 3.5 players 6-0, 6-0. i've also beaten 3 computer rated 4.0 players 6-0, 6-0. not sure if that means i'm on the upper end of 4.0 but in my experiences, there is quite a range within any NTRP level.

could also be my style. a little quicker than the average bear so i can cover a lot of court. can grind it out and slice and dice and junk it up when needed. win way more points on opponent's unforced errors. decent serve nets me a couple of easy holds. YMMV.

The bolded statement has instantaneously boosted my confidence. :)

papa
01-13-2010, 09:18 AM
Sure there is a range within the various groupings and IMO, it would depend on what part of the country your talking about. Court surfaces can make a big difference also and when you take a 4.0 - 4.5 player from up north who primarily plays inside and on hard courts, he is not going to play as well down south on har-tru surfaces where sun, wind, heat, distractions, etc. will play a factor - at least for awhile anyway.

Sublime
01-13-2010, 09:34 AM
i'm a computer rated 4.0 player. i've beaten quite a few 3.5 players 6-0, 6-0. i've also beaten 3 computer rated 4.0 players 6-0, 6-0. not sure if that means i'm on the upper end of 4.0 but in my experiences, there is quite a range within any NTRP level.

I should have said "consistently" at the end of that sentence. That quote seems to say that if you played these same 3.5 players 10 sets, they couldn't take more than a couple games off you. Do you think that's true?

mikeler
01-13-2010, 10:45 AM
In my playing experience, I find that a 0.5 different usually means an average score of 6-2, 6-2 whether I'm playing somebody better or worse. A 1.0 difference is almost always 6-0, 6-0.

LeeD
01-13-2010, 11:11 AM
I think you guys should just not play tennis anymore, but should just sit in front of the computer and figure out the future results by the past results.
You know, there IS a reason they still play out the matches for real.
Guessing scores is just that....guessing.
Do you know about injuries? How about what's on the player's minds? How about their recent travel adventures? How about their home and love life? Maybe they just went thru some mental trauma?
Lots of things affect how someone plays besides their past match results.

W Cats
01-13-2010, 11:49 AM
I think you guys should just not play tennis anymore, but should just sit in front of the computer and figure out the future results by the past results.

LOL You know I'm stuck in my office grading papers and getting ready for the end of the semester. So why not a little virtual tennis or is there a reality TV tennis show?

No I just thought it was an interesting guideline from USTA that I've never heard of before and thought I'd post it for you guys to enjoy. Seeing as ntrp seems get people a little worked up. Kinda like putting a ham in a tank full of piranahs.

tfm1973
01-13-2010, 03:16 PM
I should have said "consistently" at the end of that sentence. That quote seems to say that if you played these same 3.5 players 10 sets, they couldn't take more than a couple games off you. Do you think that's true?

against computer rated 3.5 players? yes. i'd feel confident that i would win 10 out of 10 matches and only drop a few games. the absolute biggest difference i see at 3.5 vs 4.0 is consistency. same ugly strokes usually at both levels - myself included. but i always know that i can get my ugly shots in the court one more time then they do.

the same is likely true at the 4.5 level. i would imagine they could play me and feel like they would only lose a few games. and in any rally they will likely feel like they can outlast me and/or hit outright winners.

GuyClinch
01-13-2010, 03:32 PM
I have never beaten anyone 6-0, 6-0 and I have played guys 1+ NTRP below me.
I have never lost to anyone 6-0, 6-0 and I have played guys 1+ NTRP above me.

That's because in the rec world..

2.75 = 3.5
3.0 = 3.5
3.25 = 3.5
3.5 = 4.0
4.0 = 5.0.

If you play against league rated players there is a big gap in the NTRP rankings, IMHO. Against joe schmoe down at the park..yeah not so much.

The vast majority of players I have hit against mill around somewhere in the 3.0-40 mark.. The legit 4.0s spank the crap out of the 3.0s. Of course those guys claim they are 5.0's (when they are not playing league).