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Cindysphinx
01-20-2010, 08:18 AM
I had something unusual happen in my most recent match.

You'll recall that we play 2-hour timed matches. Our rules allow for 20 seconds between points, with receivers being required to play to the reasonable pace of the server. Nothing unusual there.

What was unusual was that my opponents were clearly unhappy with us for our pace of play when they were serving.

Early on, one of the ladies serves to my partner. Point ends. We smack hands, say something to each other like "Way to go" or whatever. I walk back to receive and I see the server was standing at baseline, ready to toss, giving me the evil eye. OK, I thought, she plays quickly.

Thereafter, there were many times when the server expressed her irritation that we weren't moving fast enough. On one occasion, a point ended and I was supposed to receive next. There was a ball near the back curtain, so I walked to pick it up -- I'm headed back that way to receive anyway, right? The server yelled, "I don't need it," to discourage me from picking it up. I kind of figured I was entitled to clear a ball between points, as I don't like having balls behind me.

Another time, the first serve was clearly long, so I knocked it into the bottom of the net. It rolled back toward me, and was perhaps three feet into the ad service box. I held up a racket, walked to it, knocked it sideways under the bench, backed up, and then said, "OK." Server was shaking her head irritably.

Another time my partner and I both deferred on a ball up the middle and so lost the point. We had a brief discussion of the "Oh, I'm sorry, let's remember to call the middle ball next time, but since you were closer to the net you can take it" variety. In the middle of this, the server shouted, "I'm ready!"

It was common for me to have to hold up my racket between first and second serves (ball that needed to be cleared or watched until it settled), when my partner had not yet made it to the service line, or when I knew the server was going to serve the instant I reached the baseline to receive.

In the end, we won the match in straight sets, with about 25 minutes of time remaining. It wasn't a situation where we slowed down in an attempt to run out the clock or they sped up because they were losing. No, it seemed that she just plays fast and gets angry with anyone who doesn't keep up.

I wasn't quite sure what to do about this, as the pace struck me as unreasonably fast. I considered talking to her about it on a changeover, but I didn't wish to have a fight on my hands and she looked like she might explode. I considered some of the standard tricks (delaying sending the balls back to her, spraying the balls intentionally), but that crap isn't my style. I tried to just play the way I always play, with talking between points limited to things I thought needed to be addressed right then ("OK, I'm going to lob my return, so be ready to back up if I miss").

So, what's "unreasonable?" What's the best way to handle this if it happens again?

Cindy -- who also annoyed her opponents by catching a lot of bad tosses that night, but who had zero double faults as a result

spot
01-20-2010, 08:24 AM
Eh- the opponent didn't say anything to you and didn't tell you that reasonable behavior on your part wasn't allowed. I think that when she was irritated by normal behavior then there isn't much you can do about that. She can't stop you from pausing her when you feel you are being rushed and you can't stop her from being irriated by normal behavior. She's just an impatient person.

Personally I'd just have a 10 second or so conversation with my partner and if she does anything to make you feel like you can't do that then address it. But if she is just acting frustrated then I can't see how it can be dealt with. Its her problem and she needs to deal with it her way.

larry10s
01-20-2010, 09:19 AM
first if you are bothered by a ball behind you shouldnt be hitting out balls into the net and letting it be on the court during a point either. even if one has nothing to do with the other hitting balls into the net without removing them is a pet peeve of mine. the fact that it irritated the server when you had to go get it is more reason to let the out serve go to the back fence (and deal with the fact that its there) or put it in your pocket/skirt .
i would walk farther back than where i want to rceive serve and walk to my receiving position with my hand up until i was ready. if the server tells you you have to play to the servers pace your reply yes but you cant rush me as long as its within the 20 seconds.

blakesq
01-20-2010, 10:28 AM
I give my opponents the evil eye when they are grouped together strategizing and I am ready to serve. But when my opponents are clearing balls, I never get angry. If your opponents didn't say anything, maybe they are just grumpy ladies. And if you finished with 25 minutes left...sounds like you played plenty fast enough. Probably the fact that you were winning made them even grumpier.

LuckyR
01-20-2010, 10:43 AM
I had something unusual happen in my most recent match.

Cindy -- who also annoyed her opponents by catching a lot of bad tosses that night, but who had zero double faults as a result

Just so you know, she is, right now, creating a thread about that unreasonable match she just played with the team that stalled.

The fact is, she is an outlier. She is getting identical feedback from every single other match she plays, since your play was pretty much in the middle of the speed most people play. Since she is getting the feedback that every single player she meets takes longer that she wants to and she persists, she is meeting the definition of gamnesmanship, ie she is looking for players weakwilled enough to accomidate her unreasonable speed.

I would not try to reconcile with a gamesmanship person, I would slow my pace to a literal crawl and put it right back in their face.

Topaz
01-20-2010, 11:45 AM
You did the exact right thing...you played the way you always play.

She never actually said anything, so if she thought you guys were being too slow or unreasonable then it wasn't enough for her to do something about it. My guess is that she was taking her frustration of losing out on you guys.

Good job staying cool-headed!

Kostas
01-20-2010, 11:47 AM
We should change the rules to make the minimum time between serves at least 15 seconds and the maximum time 25 seconds thus creating a mutually acceptable window of 10 seconds to allow the server to serve the next point.

r2473
01-20-2010, 12:19 PM
I would not try to reconcile with a gamesmanship person, I would slow my pace to a literal crawl and put it right back in their face.

This is why I love league play. Adults trying their best to act like children (and succeeding admirably):)

Cindysphinx
01-20-2010, 12:26 PM
first if you are bothered by a ball behind you shouldnt be hitting out balls into the net and letting it be on the court during a point either. even if one has nothing to do with the other hitting balls into the net without removing them is a pet peeve of mine. the fact that it irritated the server when you had to go get it is more reason to let the out serve go to the back fence (and deal with the fact that its there) or put it in your pocket/skirt .
i would walk farther back than where i want to rceive serve and walk to my receiving position with my hand up until i was ready. if the server tells you you have to play to the servers pace your reply yes but you cant rush me as long as its within the 20 seconds.

Man, I just can't win! :)

If I catch the ball, I have to put it in my skirt and then make sure my skirt isn't hitched up and giving everyone a view.

If I let it go behind me, I will find it distracting if I need to run hard for a lob. (If the point is long, I will lose my bearings a bit and have to locate that ball with my eyes as I run, and that is distracting.)

If I knock it into the net, I will run afoul of someone's pet peeve and it might roll back into the field of play.

I think that any of these methods of dealing with faults are fine because the receiver isn't putting obvious faults into play. People who are distracted because of the few seconds it takes to manage balls should go play on tour where they have ball kids.

Ripper014
01-20-2010, 02:37 PM
Man, I just can't win! :)

If I catch the ball, I have to put it in my skirt and then make sure my skirt isn't hitched up and giving everyone a view.

If I let it go behind me, I will find it distracting if I need to run hard for a lob. (If the point is long, I will lose my bearings a bit and have to locate that ball with my eyes as I run, and that is distracting.)

If I knock it into the net, I will run afoul of someone's pet peeve and it might roll back into the field of play.

I think that any of these methods of dealing with faults are fine because the receiver isn't putting obvious faults into play. People who are distracted because of the few seconds it takes to manage balls should go play on tour where they have ball kids.


I can see why this might upset your opponent if they have issues with their second serves... some people like to stay in a rhythm and to hit out balls and having them wait to hit a second serve might be an issue.

Overall I don't see a problem... I have been annoyed with slow play in the past but that is only because I thought they did it on purpose to try and change the momentum of a match... not a problem as long as the play kept flowing. Its when it becomes gamesmanship when things usually get ugly. But 20 seconds between points for whatever reason should never be a problem.

LuckyR
01-20-2010, 06:15 PM
This is why I love league play. Adults trying their best to act like children (and succeeding admirably):)

Well, you can play you regular speed, that's OK, just don't let a gamer get into your head, as it did in Cindy's case.

OrangePower
01-20-2010, 08:32 PM
Man, I just can't win! :)

If I catch the ball, I have to put it in my skirt and then make sure my skirt isn't hitched up and giving everyone a view.

If I let it go behind me, I will find it distracting if I need to run hard for a lob. (If the point is long, I will lose my bearings a bit and have to locate that ball with my eyes as I run, and that is distracting.)

If I knock it into the net, I will run afoul of someone's pet peeve and it might roll back into the field of play.

I think that any of these methods of dealing with faults are fine because the receiver isn't putting obvious faults into play. People who are distracted because of the few seconds it takes to manage balls should go play on tour where they have ball kids.

Slightly off-topic, but of the three potential methods of dealing with faults, I think the 2nd and 3rd are acceptable but not the first.

If you can catch / trap the ball, fine, otherwise, let it go to the back fence. Once in a while it may bounce off the fence and roll a bit towards the court and in that case it's acceptible to quickly clear it. But most cases it will come to rest within a foot of the fence. Assuming the court and fences are properly designed that is.

Hitting it into the net I don't think is acceptable because it is much more likely to end up in the court and require clearing. Unless of course you have amazing touch. Most people at our level don't.

Cindysphinx
01-20-2010, 08:56 PM
I think people just need to be flexible, Orange. It really does depend on the facility and how much space there is behind you and what sort of fencing there is.

For instance, one of our facilities has a very short area behind the baseline and a curtain back there instead of a fence. In running for lobs, I have many times run into this back curtain. If a ball is near the curtain when this happens, it will rebound into the field of play. Much better is to catch the errant serve or knock it into the net where it can't move.

I figure if my opponent simply abides by the Code and doesn't return obvious faults they have fulfilled their duty to me and I won't complain about how they handle the balls.

Bud
01-20-2010, 09:58 PM
Man, I just can't win! :)

If I catch the ball, I have to put it in my skirt and then make sure my skirt isn't hitched up and giving everyone a view.

If I let it go behind me, I will find it distracting if I need to run hard for a lob. (If the point is long, I will lose my bearings a bit and have to locate that ball with my eyes as I run, and that is distracting.)

If I knock it into the net, I will run afoul of someone's pet peeve and it might roll back into the field of play.

I think that any of these methods of dealing with faults are fine because the receiver isn't putting obvious faults into play. People who are distracted because of the few seconds it takes to manage balls should go play on tour where they have ball kids.

You just have to learn to hit it into the net at a pace where it won't roll back :mrgreen:

larry10s
01-21-2010, 07:13 AM
Man, I just can't win! :)

If I catch the ball, I have to put it in my skirt and then make sure my skirt isn't hitched up and giving everyone a view.

If I let it go behind me, I will find it distracting if I need to run hard for a lob. (If the point is long, I will lose my bearings a bit and have to locate that ball with my eyes as I run, and that is distracting.)

If I knock it into the net, I will run afoul of someone's pet peeve and it might roll back into the field of play.

I think that any of these methods of dealing with faults are fine because the receiver isn't putting obvious faults into play. People who are distracted because of the few seconds it takes to manage balls should go play on tour where they have ball kids.

the pet peeve issue is the least of issues you should concern yourself with hitting the ball into the net. i added that so you can know me better:rolleyes:
having a ball on the court is/ can be 1) hazardous if you trip on it. 2) you lose the point if the other team hits it since you left it on the court 3)and is a visual distraction as you seee the yellow in your peripheral vision. just to name a few reasons not to have a ball on the court in the playing area

drakulie
01-21-2010, 07:18 AM
I had something unusual happen in my most recent match.



Really?

You??

Unreasonable???

I don't believe it.

Spokewench
01-21-2010, 08:51 AM
Cindy, you just encountered the quick serve. I think we just had a thread about this, didn't we? You did exactly what you should have done; they need to let you clear balls and get back to the line to receive. And, strategy is part of doubles, so if you quickly talk about what you want to do and jog back to your positions to play, you are fine. Quick serve is gamesmenship if you don't let your opponent clear balls. It also puts people off because they rush their game and hit errors.

spoke

Cindysphinx
01-21-2010, 09:09 AM
Really?

You??

Unreasonable???

I don't believe it.

Oh, Drak. You are so cute. You just *hate* my posts, but you cannot bring yourself to look away. You are mesmerized, transfixed, hypnotized. I imagine you there at your little computer screen, clad only in yellowing boxers and black dress socks, grinding your teeth at what I have to say.

It's cute, but kind of sad at the same time.

Cindy -- expecting Drak to follow her into the women's apparel thread any day now

drakulie
01-21-2010, 09:45 AM
^^Don't give yourself so much credit. yes, I'm mesmerized............... by the level of total DuBmEsSS some reach.

It amazes me that you know so little about the game, and yet are captain of a team. Just makes me wonder how ignorant your teammates must be (blind leading the blind comes to mind), and how frustrated your opponents must be in having to teach you every little detail during a team vs. team match.

OrangePower
01-21-2010, 09:45 AM
I think people just need to be flexible, Orange. It really does depend on the facility and how much space there is behind you and what sort of fencing there is.

For instance, one of our facilities has a very short area behind the baseline and a curtain back there instead of a fence. In running for lobs, I have many times run into this back curtain. If a ball is near the curtain when this happens, it will rebound into the field of play. Much better is to catch the errant serve or knock it into the net where it can't move.

I figure if my opponent simply abides by the Code and doesn't return obvious faults they have fulfilled their duty to me and I won't complain about how they handle the balls.

Fair enough. I play only on various outdoor courts with regular fencing, and balls laying within a foot of the back fence don't pose any issue. But I have no experience with indoor court curtains, so you might be right there. Still it seems to me that hitting errant serves towards the net in a way that the ball will actually stay by the net is pretty hard. Maybe it depends on how hard the errant serves are.

OrangePower
01-21-2010, 09:47 AM
Wouldn't it be a hoot to find out that Cindy and Drak are actually married?!?

drakulie
01-21-2010, 09:55 AM
^^^That would be lovely. :)

r2473
01-21-2010, 10:20 AM
Really?

You??

Unreasonable???

I don't believe it.

I also think it is pretty funny to see how Cindy posts on EVERY little thing that happens in everyone of her..................I was going to say "her matches" but she actually comments on EVERY little thing that happens in every match she has ever seen / heard / or dreamed about.

Her personality is extremely.............er................."detail oriented" and........................."impassioned".

I share the same "fascination" with her posts you do. Even more fascinating is that many people comment in her posts and feel strongly about the same issues she does.

gameboy
01-21-2010, 11:39 AM
r2473, I think the word you are looking for is "high maintenance"...

sureshs
01-21-2010, 12:00 PM
Cindy, you go girl.

At your (our) age, there is no way we should be playing with a ball close behind us or in front of us. I have seen several near-accidents with stray balls. No point in showing heroism here. There is a 70 year old ex-Navy guy I play with, and he sees nothing wrong in making sure there are no balls near him. In fact, even during hitting, he doesn't like to use more than 3 balls for the same reason.

JavierLW
01-21-2010, 12:02 PM
r2473, I think the word you are looking for is "high maintenance"...

Wow, what happened to this little quirky quote from you?:

"If you are a true gentleman, you should avoid all unnecessary confrontation."

Let's face it, if you really think that's this post is okay, then you are not a gentleman...

Which means you're just afraid of personal confontation so you'll cave (like you said you would on a line call if someone questions you), rather then stick up for yourself.

Dont try to make something holy and benevolent about it, it is what it is....

gameboy
01-21-2010, 12:13 PM
Who said I was a gentleman on this board?

People's behavior on-line and in person can vary wildly.

Anyway, I was just trying to help out r2473, just like any gentleman would do :)

Rob_C
01-21-2010, 12:33 PM
Another time, the first serve was clearly long, so I knocked it into the bottom of the net. It rolled back toward me, and was perhaps three feet into the ad service box. I held up a racket, walked to it, knocked it sideways under the bench, backed up, and then said, "OK." Server was shaking her head irritably.



If I was serving and the receiver unnecessarily returned a clearly out serve into the net, then held up my 2nd serve while they cleared the ball, I'd be irritated too.

Some people do that intentionally to stall between 1st and 2nd serves, not saying that it applies to u.

That being said, everything else that u did was fine. The server was being unreasonable, and IMO, not very experienced.

That rule is unenforceable at every level, take Nadal for instance. However, at the local level where people have to pick up their own balls, it should be expected.

JavierLW
01-21-2010, 01:03 PM
Who said I was a gentleman on this board?

People's behavior on-line and in person can vary wildly.

Anyway, I was just trying to help out r2473, just like any gentleman would do :)

Yes it "can" vary wildly....

But it shouldnt.... If you're not honest enough to say something in person in someone's face (including telling them that they are wrong), then you shouldnt do it on a message board where they will read it.

Unless you're either immature or a troll. (it's kind of like the situation where your kid gets his hand on a CB radio for the first time, and they just go nuts yelling expletives on it just because they feel they can get away with it.....)

Sure they may get away with it and lots of little immature kids will pick up the CB and do the very same thing but does that mean they should?

gameboy
01-21-2010, 01:07 PM
I guess you are declaring that you are not gentleman... :)

I am here for entertainment. If I was avoiding "unecessary confrontations" I wouldn't even be posting.

Internet posting is not a "gentleman's sport", tennis is. I do what the situtation calls for. You may not agree, but then again, I couldn't care less.

Topaz
01-21-2010, 01:09 PM
Wouldn't it be a hoot to find out that Cindy and Drak are actually married?!?

Well, according to Dennis10is, Drak and I are married...so I guess he is into polygamy now!!!

Cindysphinx
01-21-2010, 01:33 PM
^^Don't give yourself so much credit. yes, I'm mesmerized............... by the level of total DuBmEsSS some reach.

It amazes me that you know so little about the game, and yet are captain of a team. Just makes me wonder how ignorant your teammates must be (blind leading the blind comes to mind), and how frustrated your opponents must be in having to teach you every little detail during a team vs. team match.


You know, you can get the yellow out of those boxers with a bit of hot water and bleach.

Run along, little man. Run along.

gameboy
01-21-2010, 01:41 PM
I will defend Cindy on this. She is passionate about the sport and cares deeply about her team. She makes a great captain candidate for any USTA team. Drak is dead wrong about that.

Cindysphinx
01-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I will defend Cindy on this. She is passionate about the sport and cares deeply about her team. She makes a great captain candidate for any USTA team. Drak is dead wrong about that.

Thanks, gameboy.

Will you marry me? :)

Ripper014
01-21-2010, 02:08 PM
I will defend Cindy on this. She is passionate about the sport and cares deeply about her team. She makes a great captain candidate for any USTA team. Drak is dead wrong about that.

There is no question that Cindy is passionate about the sport and cares for her team... but I would say in most cases it is true of most captains. It is a thankless job and we should kiss the feet of anyone willing to put themselves through the egos... and other hardships they endure (mostly quietly) over a season.

Hmmm.. whats the topic of this thread again?

OrangePower
01-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Oops my innocent comment seems to have dragged us into a whole world of polygamous options!!

Here's what made me think of Drak and Cindy in the first place... funny read:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/09/04/tiff-love-115875-21646633/

sureshs
01-21-2010, 03:30 PM
There is no question that Cindy is passionate about the sport and cares for her team... but I would say in most cases it is true of most captains. It is a thankless job and we should kiss the feet of anyone willing to put themselves through the egos... and other hardships they endure (mostly quietly) over a season.

Hmmm.. whats the topic of this thread again?

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Cindysphinx
01-21-2010, 07:08 PM
I think this current combo team is my fifteenth team. I don't dare add up how many line-ups that is.

I think if I make it to 4.0 I will hang up my notebook and leave the captaining to others.

sureshs
01-22-2010, 05:39 AM
I imagine you there at your little computer screen, clad only in yellowing boxers and black dress socks, grinding your teeth at what I have to say.


That is a very disturbing image. Is drakulie really like that?

origmarm
01-22-2010, 05:54 AM
I firmly believe that Topaz and Cindy are divorced and that Drak remarried Topaz based on this thread :)

eagle
01-22-2010, 06:15 AM
Interesting thread.

On my serves, I play within the 20 second window. I am not annoyed or understand having to wait if balls need to be cleared. But when receiving, I always always play to the server's pace. If he wants to play fast, I can do that. If he wants to play slow, I can do that as well. No big deal. I'm pretty flexible. :)

Now, regarding this little tiff between drak and cindy ... is drak irritated because in this particular thread similar to other threads folks post a question knowing the answer already but simply post for the sake of posting?

r,
eagle

Topaz
01-22-2010, 07:18 AM
I firmly believe that Topaz and Cindy are divorced and that Drak remarried Topaz based on this thread :)

LOLOL...Cindy and I are divorced? Wow, I'm learning things about myself that I never knew!

:shock:

;)

Cindysphinx
01-22-2010, 07:28 AM
Now, regarding this little tiff between drak and cindy ... is drak irritated because in this particular thread similar to other threads folks post a question knowing the answer already but simply post for the sake of posting?

r,
eagle

Nope, that's not it. Trust me. This nonsense has been going on for about a year. And yes, it has gotten old.

Anyway, I apologize for posting this thread when there was another similar one recently. Trouble is, I didn't understand that what my opponents were doing was the same as "quick serving."

I thought quick serving was when the server served when you clearly were not ready, and you lunge for it and then they take the point. The server here did not once serve when I wasn't ready. She was just visibly annoyed, which made me wonder what the limits to playing to the server's pace might be. As you say, Eagle, I could have played faster, running back to my position, not talking to my partner, not collecting the balls. Should I have to do these things to comply with the Code? I wasn't sure.

Topaz
01-22-2010, 07:32 AM
^^^Cindy, what you were doing though was not out of Code conduct either. You are entitled to clear balls that bother you, and you are also entitled to communicate with your partner between points.

If I remember correctly, your opponents didn't actually verbally complain to you guys, did they? So, if they didn't, and were just acting *****ly, again, you did the right thing. You played the way you always did, didn't let it affect you, and went on about your business.

If they have something up their butt, and don't have the nerve to say something about it, then that is their problem, not yours.

Cindysphinx
01-22-2010, 07:42 AM
Yeah, I get that Topaz.

Still, I like to comply with the Code, even when my opponent doesn't complain to me.

For instance, I said that my partner was returning obviously out faults. The server was rolling her eyes and was clearly irritated by it. I could have just let my partner keep doing it. Maybe it would make the server simmer and would get into her head, right?

No, I reminded my partner not to return obviously out faults and took pains myself not to do so. So I get your point, but I wanted to ask you guys what's reasonable and unreasonable.

origmarm
01-22-2010, 07:51 AM
LOLOL...Cindy and I are divorced? Wow, I'm learning things about myself that I never knew!

:shock:

;)

Yeah it's amazing what you can get out of posting on TTW.

sureshs
01-22-2010, 08:10 AM
I firmly believe that Topaz and Cindy are divorced

I didn't realize they were "like that."

But I am cool with it.

origmarm
01-22-2010, 08:45 AM
I didn't realize they were "like that."

But I am cool with it.

This is why there is animosity between Cindy and drak I believe...though perhaps we have something to learn about drak also....

The plot thickens....

Topaz
01-22-2010, 08:47 AM
Hey, I didn't realize I was like 'that' either.

TW has me married to both a man and a woman! :shock:

equinox
01-22-2010, 08:55 AM
Gamemanship. We all practice this to some degree to disrupt our oppositions momentum.

A reasonable pace is 10 seconds after you're picked up the ball and handed them back. Giving enough time to engage in a short tactical discussion for the next few points.

I would get ticked off if the receiver frequently run to the net and back to clear a ball. The partner should do that duty.

oth after seeing an old timer break both her wrists attempting to stop her fall and screaming like a banshee until the ambulance arrived nothing is worth the danger of tripping on a stray ball.

JavierLW
01-22-2010, 08:57 AM
Nope, that's not it. Trust me. This nonsense has been going on for about a year. And yes, it has gotten old.

Anyway, I apologize for posting this thread when there was another similar one recently. Trouble is, I didn't understand that what my opponents were doing was the same as "quick serving."

I thought quick serving was when the server served when you clearly were not ready, and you lunge for it and then they take the point. The server here did not once serve when I wasn't ready. She was just visibly annoyed, which made me wonder what the limits to playing to the server's pace might be. As you say, Eagle, I could have played faster, running back to my position, not talking to my partner, not collecting the balls. Should I have to do these things to comply with the Code? I wasn't sure.

Right quickserving isnt necessarily cheating, it's just one of those things that we could argue is frowned upon or a form of sportsmanship, although I believe most people would agree that it's somehow undesirable. (I dont see anyone on here fighting for their right to quick serve)

The problem with it is that there is probably a gray area of when you are really ready or not. If you're used to getting into your stance and getting a few seconds to look at the server, clear your mind or whatever, then you might feel that a serve shooting out instantly is too soon.

The rule mentions about you "being ready", but it doesnt really say what that means because we dont typically say or so anything to indicate we are ready other then get into our stance.

That's why to remedy the situation, it's suggested that you hold your hand up until you feel you are ready, that way you ARE signaling that you are not ready and if they serve before that, you can say with 100% certainty that you were not ready.

origmarm
01-22-2010, 08:57 AM
TW has me married to both a man and a woman! :shock:

It can drive you to these things! :)

sureshs
01-22-2010, 09:35 AM
Hey, I didn't realize I was like 'that' either.

TW has me married to both a man and a woman! :shock:

Billie Jean King is bisexual