What's better: a bent or straighter arm at contact?

[David I.]

I was told by a teaching pro that you should be able to keep a tennis ball in your armpit during your forehand. Yet I see pros with their elbows well away from their body with a slightly bent arm. Is the added leverage of a straighter arm an advantage?

[Bungalo Bill]

The elbow for a pros strokes is not well away from the body. The arm is bent and depending on the grip used the bend in the arm can be up to 90 degrees.

The elbow passes the body as it moves on front of your body plane to meet the ball.

They may start out away from the body on the backswing as Roddick does, but once they bring the racquet forward the elbow stays a comfortable distance from the side of the body. Otherwise, they would have a hell of a time controlling the racquet head consistently. Not to say on some shots they are not stretched, but for balls they are on time with they keep within the fundamentals.

[JohnThomas1]

Hi guys interesting post. This is my very first post here and i must say i am immensely impressed by Bill's passion for and knowledge of the game in this board. I have been reading unregistered for weeks now and finally joined just now. My comment in this one is that Bollettieri says in his handbook that he had Anna K practise with this ball under the armpit drill at his academy due to letting it drift too far from the body on both backswing and impact. After studying many good forehands i noticed most had the elbow closer to the body than her at impact, while pretty much all let the elbow fly a little on the backswing as Bill commented Roddick does. I look forward to conversing in many more threads with you guys :)

[David I.]

http://www.universalcargo.com/fedex.jpg

Federer is a pro who consistently keeps his elbow farther away from his body than most pros. Blake is similar. Maybe this is a reason Federer's forehands look effortless yet have so much power? Conner's had a fairly straight arm and a simple stroke. Agassi and Roddick have killer forehands with the elbow closer to the body, but they seem to put more effort than Federer. On the 2-handed backhand we have the straight arms at contact of Agassi and Kafelnikov and the bent arms of Seles, Dokic and Hingis. The best backhands seem to be the one-handers where the arm is straight at contact for maximum leverage.

[Bungalo Bill]

You have to be very careful evaluating these photos for what is happening. You are seeing the elbow when the swing is at impact or afterhas been made or at contact. The key point in allof these photos is the elbow is in front of the body plane.

The elbow has already come forward and the rotation is providing the rest of the stroke. So the body has already turned. A goodpoint these photos do make is how the elbow is in front of the body when he hits the ball.

These photos are missing a lot of key information in the forward swing. Remember the elbow passes closer to the body before impact and as rotation and the forward movement of the elbow happens, you will develop the look in those photos.

[David I.]

Here is a link to see the whole movement.

http://www.importexpert.com/forehands.html

With Fed and Philipoussis the elbow is bent and closer to the body at the top of the backswing and on the forward swing the arm straightens and elbow moves away from the body, then the arm bends after contact.

Contrast this with Agassi who has his elbow away at the top of the backswing then bends the elbow toward the body at contact

[fastdunn]

I asked similar questions a while back.
IMHO, "A tennis ball under your arm-pit" rule might need to be
re-studied because modern forehand

1) a multi-segment swing while traditional forehand is
a single segment swing.
2) uses more of angular momentum than forward momentum
compared to traditional one.

I'm not saying the old elbow rule does not apply for modern forehand
but some sport scientists should put some doubt on it.....

[Bungalo Bill]

THe modern forehand still needs an elbow close to the body. This is a staple to the forehand even on the modern forehand.

There are two huge reasons for this:

1. It is easier for the brain to calculate the position of the racquet head, its location, and what it needs to do to bring it to the ball.

2. It is easier to control your forearm roll and wrist movement during the forces they are under on both the back and forward swings.

When the elbow is away from your body, it will require much more practice and strength to hit consistently with it.

Once you get comfortable on the position of your elbow to your individual body, then you can venture out and try it further out. More often then not, you wont need to. You also will have the benefit of potentially not injuring your arm as you learn.

The modern forehand is hit with the elbow comfortably close to the body. There is plenty of proof of this and some of the biggest forehands in todays game has the elbow comfortably close to the body on passing. The reason for this is they incorporate the shoulder and chest muscles for their power. These two muscle groups add tremendous power and control in the shot.

Be careful not to mix up style with fundamentals. Not a bad forehand for this unknown player: http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Open%20stance%20forehand%201.swf

[jun]

Sometimes these pictures can be very deceiving.

On Mark P's forehand, the contact point is more out in front than Agassi's. It's away from the body in a sense that it's out in front.

But it's not far away "laterally" or horizontally.

I remember the article about Anna K's forehand. Her contact point was way towards her right side. It means that her elbow was far way from her body "laterally"

[Bungalo Bill]

I examined all three videos, and I must say that Scud's video is really tough to say he does this all the time on his forehands. First off, he is moving away from the ball to hit a forehand down the line and it is quite possible he misjudged his movement which forced him to reach out more to get a clean shot.

On Federer, he is fine with the distance he has his elbow relative to his body. Since I have already seen many films on Agassi, I already know he is pretty much text book and any player wanting to improve would benefit by imitating as much as they can of his strokes.

Federer, is pretty normal as far as his elbow is from his side. He will use more of his arm muscles then Agassi's compact stroke. Agassi will have more chest and shoulder muscle in the shot. In my opinion, I like to see this in a player. But Federer is not bad either.

If you study the film closely you will see a lot of elements that we preach on this board. A fixed wrist through contact. Elbow leads, then rotation, while contact is made with a level racquet with the elbow in front of the body plane, then relaxation with a followthrough.

Pretty basic!

[PhatAbbott]

I personally dont think ANYBODY should try and copy Marks forehand... :-)

[David I.]

What fascinates me about Fed's forehand is how it seems to be not that fast a stroke and yet it has great pace. I think it is from the added leverage from the elbow being farther out. I'm just an average player and have been trying out this method and found I can get more pace with a moderate stroke. I have an eastern FH grip and the elbow out technique probably won't work with western grips. Like most average players, swinging at full speed results in a loss of control and with this elbow out method I can get decent pace with a moderate swing. Same thing with the backhand using straight arms at contact. Baseball players and golfers always have straight arms at contact.

All of the Mark P. videos I've seen are similar to the one posted and Sampras's best forehand, the running forehand, he has the elbow well away from the body.

[JohnThomas1]

One of the biggest factors in the pace of Federers forehand is how he stops his shoulders rotating in his foreward swing, which makes his racquet slingshot into impact with greater pace.

[Rackethead]

I personally dont think ANYBODY should try and copy Marks forehand... :-)

What's wrong with Mark's forehand?

[PhatAbbott]

What do you think is wrong with it ?

[Rackethead]

I'll trade Mark's forehand for mine anyday :lol:

Well I'm not a strong player so this may be offbase -- but he does seem to hit with a very big swing, straight arm, elbow away from body -- this might be hard to be consistent with for a weaker player.

[TwistServe]

The elbow for a pros strokes is not well away from the body. The arm is bent and depending on the grip used the bend in the arm can be up to 90 degrees.

The elbow passes the body as it moves on front of your body plane to meet the ball.

They may start out away from the body on the backswing as Roddick does, but once they bring the racquet forward the elbow stays a comfortable distance from the side of the body. Otherwise, they would have a hell of a time controlling the racquet head consistently. Not to say on some shots they are not stretched, but for balls they are on time with they keep within the fundamentals.

I've never really paid attention to where my elbow is during contact until reading this thread.. So now I'm conciously trying to keep my elbow close to the body and at an L angle (western forehand).

After you make contact, how does the followthrough work? I'm looking at slow motion clips of pros, and it looks like the elbow stays bent as the racquet comes over to the left side... I've tried this in my group classes and both pros teaching the class are telling me to extend and straighten my arm out on followthrough.. They are also saying my elbow is too close to the body.. I didnt want to argue so I just went with it.

[fastdunn]

Gorth97, this thread is 3 month old and I'm not sure if we can get
any attention from people now.

I'm pretty sure quite a few pros now often have their arm
quite strightened out at contact points for forehands.


But as Bungalo Bill said, their elbow is still comfortably close
to their body and it is very hard to time it.

IMHO, this is due to the difference in generating topspin in
modern and classic forehand. In classic forehand, you need to
bend your arm to keep your racquet face vertical and swing up.
In modern forehand, there's a bit more room for variety of
contact points, IMHO, because pronation and arm action have
a bigger role. This is just my theory. No tennis expert verified
this... actually most pros do not fully understand the question
this thread is addressing, in my experiences....

[Bungalo Bill]

Gorth97, this thread is 3 month old and I'm not sure if we can get
any attention from people now.

I'm pretty sure quite a few pros now often have their arm
quite strightened out at contact points for forehands.


But as Bungalo Bill said, their elbow is still comfortably close
to their body and it is very hard to time it.

IMHO, this is due to the difference in generating topspin in
modern and classic forehand. In classic forehand, you need to
bend your arm to keep your racquet face vertical and swing up.
In modern forehand, there's a bit more room for variety of
contact points, IMHO, because pronation and arm action have
a bigger role. This is just my theory. No tennis expert verified
this... actually most pros do not fully understand the question
this thread is addressing, in my experiences....

The straight arm on the forehand really depends on the grip. The more Western the grip is the more bent the arm is at contact.

Again study the pros!

Here is Guga (western grip)

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Running%20forehand.swf

Here is Agassi (SW grip)

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Open%20stance%20forehand%201.swf

Here is Haas (mild western to sw grip)

http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-Open%20stance%20forehand%201.swf

[Printer099]

I thought it was a bad thing to have your elbow too close to your body because then you will get jammed and lose power. When my elbow is too close to my body I get jammed and hit with all upper body, when I extend my arm acts as a level and makes it easier to use my whole body into powering the ball. Is this correct or wrong the way I was tauught. I was taught that the ball should fall out of my armpit or I am jamming too much???

[Bungalo Bill]

The elbow being close to the body is not causing you to get jammed. It is your adjustment steps and your vision on where you need to be to hit the ball from the right distance.

Everybody can hit the ball with their elbow further away from the body. But here is the down fall to this:

1. Harder for the brain to calculate where the racquet head is in relation to the ball

2. More of the impact gets sent to your elbow instead of absorbed in your chest and shoulder muscles.

You are correct that you should be about a balls width from your side throughout the swing and at contact.

[breetai]

THE biggest flaw in all beginner's swing. Even in golf there are two trains of thought. Power comes mostly from arms or power from the core muscles leading the arm.
But in golf the ball is a dead stationary object.


Try absorbing all the shock on a 100mph serve with a mis-hit. OUCH
2. More of the impact gets sent to your elbow instead of absorbed in your chest and shoulder muscles.

.

[thejerk]

Don't forget about how messed up camera angles are for depth perception.