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View Full Version : Do You Ever Call Your Own Lines In Doubles?


Cindysphinx
01-25-2010, 09:32 AM
I am having some trouble with line call on my own service returns.

When I am receiving serve, I expect to call the service box sidelines, and I expect my partner to call the serves that are deep. If the serve is headed straight up the middle, I forget about calling the serve out and instead concentrate on hitting a good return because I know my partner will call it if it is deep.

I don't like it much if my partner routinely calls the center line and I really *really* don't like it if they call the far line. If those balls are close, I have the better angle and should make the call. If those balls are way out, we will likely both see it out. I think calling the "wrong" lines looks suspicious and opponents will start wondering whether they are being hooked if we are calling balls when looking across lines rather than down them. When my partner is receiving, I tend to be very conservative and I only call those lines when my partner needs help. If she call it in and I saw it out, I will defer to her call and won't say anything.

The problem I am having is two-fold. The serve will come up the middle of the box, and to me it looks like it may be going deep, but not deep enough for me to make the call. I will focus my attention on making a good return. Partner will say nothing, I will play the return. After the point, partner will come up and say, "That serve was deep; I should have called it."

On another occasion in the same match, the serve up the T had sidespin and I was receiving in the deuce court. I saw it on the center line (or too close to call out) and played it. My partner said nothing. After the point, she came up, indicated a spot 1 foot on the wrong side of the T, and said that the serve had been out. I think it impossible that the serve could have been a foot wide and I would have missed it. But if it was really a foot out, why didn't my partner call it out?

All of this is frustrating. I don't have this with other partners. The serve comes, a line call is or is not made, and we carry on.

I'm getting to the point where I think it might be better for me to just call my own service lines. Trouble is, I think this would be bad for interpersonal relations. I can't even imagine how that conversation would go.

Has anyone ever dealt with this before?

LeeD
01-25-2010, 09:44 AM
Consider....
Up to 5.5 levels, MENS, no line judge, the PLAYER makes all the calls on his side. At that level, the ball is moving 125 + mph on serves, and easily 85mph on groundies.
If you guys can't see the ball clearly OUT, it's IN. Don't talk about it the next day, or the next year.
YOU make the calls your blind partner can't see. Both can make the call too, you know.

jswinf
01-25-2010, 10:18 AM
If I return a ball that my doubles partner later says was out, the natural response is "then call the damn thing." I don't think you should be too restrictive of what your partner should and shouldn't call, though I agree the ball down the line is too easy for a partner standing across the court to see as out. Even if making a difficult return, I still think the returner should be ready to make an "out" call if it's out. You're watching it carefully to return it, after all. The awkward thing for me is when my partner makes an awful "out" call and gets huffy when I try to overrule it.

kylebarendrick
01-25-2010, 11:29 AM
If you see a ball clearly land out, then call it out. Based on where you are relative to the ball, it will be easier to clearly see some balls than it is for others.

I agree with the frustration of having the receiver's partner call the sideline on wide serves. They have an awful view of that ball and the server's partner has the best view on the court. There's really nothing you can do about it, though, and I wouldn't worry too much.

In the end, if you are receiving and your partner calls a ball wide, that's fine as long as you (who have the better view) agree it is wide. If you see it "in" then you need to overrule your partner.

Blade0324
01-25-2010, 12:26 PM
Seems to me like too much is being worried about with respect to the calls here and not enough about just playing tennis. Doesn't matter who's call it should be or not. If you see it out call it out, if you can't see it out then it's out, no call. I'd rather play a ball that is just out rather than worrying about if it is out or not. The fewer things to think about will help you play better.

Ripper014
01-25-2010, 12:58 PM
As a rule I am like you... I call the side lines and leave the service line for my partner unless it is obviously out. I have to see the gap so normally that means the ball is out at least 6 inches or more.

And like you I don't like to overrule my partner... but there have been times the ball was obviously in... and I will surrender the point to the opponents. I have even had one partner call a ball out one time before the ball landed in the service box... only to have it land about 8 inches in... of course I gave up the point even though I returned the ball.

The times I do correct my partner there is no debate... I just tell them that the ball was "IN". Sometimes you need to say it twice though.

blakesq
01-25-2010, 01:00 PM
Mixed signals. First you say: "I don't like it much if my partner routinely calls the center line and I really *really* don't like it if they call the far line."

Then you say: "But if it was really a foot out, why didn't my partner call it out?"

Do you want your partner to call serves to you or not?

If she sees a ball out, she should call it out. Typically, the non-receiver cannot see "wide balls" on the centerline (at least if they are close to the line), due to geometry. However, the non-receiver can easily see wide balls on the "outside" line, as well as long balls, and should call those.

YOu also say: "When my partner is receiving, I tend to be very conservative and I only call those lines when my partner needs help. If she call it in and I saw it out, I will defer to her call and won't say anything." Isn't that unfair to your partner when you say "If the serve is headed straight up the middle, I forget about calling the serve out and instead concentrate on hitting a good return because I know my partner will call it if it is deep."


That is, you expect your partner to call serves to you out, because you are "concentrating on hitting a return", yet you won't call balls out served to your partner, because you are defering to her silence. Don't you think she too is concentrating on making a good return? If you see a serve to her out, you should call it out, thats your job as her partner.



I am having some trouble with line call on my own service returns.

When I am receiving serve, I expect to call the service box sidelines, and I expect my partner to call the serves that are deep. If the serve is headed straight up the middle, I forget about calling the serve out and instead concentrate on hitting a good return because I know my partner will call it if it is deep.

I don't like it much if my partner routinely calls the center line and I really *really* don't like it if they call the far line. If those balls are close, I have the better angle and should make the call. If those balls are way out, we will likely both see it out. I think calling the "wrong" lines looks suspicious and opponents will start wondering whether they are being hooked if we are calling balls when looking across lines rather than down them. When my partner is receiving, I tend to be very conservative and I only call those lines when my partner needs help. If she call it in and I saw it out, I will defer to her call and won't say anything.

The problem I am having is two-fold. The serve will come up the middle of the box, and to me it looks like it may be going deep, but not deep enough for me to make the call. I will focus my attention on making a good return. Partner will say nothing, I will play the return. After the point, partner will come up and say, "That serve was deep; I should have called it."

On another occasion in the same match, the serve up the T had sidespin and I was receiving in the deuce court. I saw it on the center line (or too close to call out) and played it. My partner said nothing. After the point, she came up, indicated a spot 1 foot on the wrong side of the T, and said that the serve had been out. I think it impossible that the serve could have been a foot wide and I would have missed it. But if it was really a foot out, why didn't my partner call it out?

All of this is frustrating. I don't have this with other partners. The serve comes, a line call is or is not made, and we carry on.

I'm getting to the point where I think it might be better for me to just call my own service lines. Trouble is, I think this would be bad for interpersonal relations. I can't even imagine how that conversation would go.

Has anyone ever dealt with this before?

rasajadad
01-25-2010, 01:24 PM
I call my own lines in doubles for two reasons:
1) I want my partner looking at our opponents. If he or she has to look down at the line, then follow my return across the net, it cuts down the time available to react to what the opponents are doing.
2) I seem to be able to call my own lines in singles. ;-)

raiden031
01-25-2010, 01:42 PM
This is my policy on line calls:

Rule #1: YOU should call all balls that you can confidently determine to be out. If your partner makes the call as well, then that means its a pretty damn good chance you got the call right.

Rule #2: The returning net player must do their best to make line calls at the service line, because they have a *much* better view of the line than the returner does.

Every single match I ever play, singles or doubles, there are countless times where out-serves are played because the returner(s) cannot see the ball out, and this happens on both sides. This is ok because 1) when it doubt, its in, and 2) it goes both ways and will even out in the end.

I get annoyed as hell when the friggin server stops play because they know their serve is out, even though there is no call and the returner plays it. This is against the rules. If its a second serve and they stop play, then they must call it themselves! If its a first serve, they need to play it no matter what!

Sorry, what started out as my policy on line calls turned into a rant.

OrangePower
01-25-2010, 03:27 PM
I call my own lines - pretty much used to doing it from playing singles. I will not hesitate to make the call on service line balls and I don't assume that my partner will make the call. On the other hand I call the service line very conservatively, so in dubs my partner will sometimes make an out call when I don't, which is fine and to be expected.

LeeD
01-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Good stuff, OrangePower......

OrangePower
01-25-2010, 03:43 PM
This is my policy on line calls:

Rule #1: YOU should call all balls that you can confidently determine to be out. If your partner makes the call as well, then that means its a pretty damn good chance you got the call right.

Rule #2: The returning net player must do their best to make line calls at the service line, because they have a *much* better view of the line than the returner does.

Every single match I ever play, singles or doubles, there are countless times where out-serves are played because the returner(s) cannot see the ball out, and this happens on both sides. This is ok because 1) when it doubt, its in, and 2) it goes both ways and will even out in the end.

I get annoyed as hell when the friggin server stops play because they know their serve is out, even though there is no call and the returner plays it. This is against the rules. If its a second serve and they stop play, then they must call it themselves! If its a first serve, they need to play it no matter what!

Sorry, what started out as my policy on line calls turned into a rant.

Off topic, but I agree completely with the bold part. It evens out. And it is usually to the server's advantage - if the serve is probably out that means it's deep or wide, both of which make the return difficult. I hate it when servers complain when the returner makes an improbably good return off of a serve that may have been out. Because over the course of the match there will be many many more cases on those close serves where the return is an error or a sitter.

Steady Eddy
01-25-2010, 07:25 PM
On another occasion in the same match, the serve up the T had sidespin and I was receiving in the deuce court. I saw it on the center line (or too close to call out) and played it. My partner said nothing. After the point, she came up, indicated a spot 1 foot on the wrong side of the T, and said that the serve had been out. I think it impossible that the serve could have been a foot wide and I would have missed it. But if it was really a foot out, why didn't my partner call it out?

All of this is frustrating. I don't have this with other partners. The serve comes, a line call is or is not made, and we carry on.

I'm getting to the point where I think it might be better for me to just call my own service lines. Trouble is, I think this would be bad for interpersonal relations. I can't even imagine how that conversation would go.

Has anyone ever dealt with this before?
Just all the time! Apparently this is more complicated than Einstein's Theory of Relativity based on how many people don't get it. Some will call your service line for you, and then for some reason quit. Why is that? Anybody? I don't want to start out saying, "I call this and you call that" and look like a control freak. But I wish I had a nickel for every time someone hits a blistering serve right at me, I fail to return it, and then my partner whispers, "That serve was long". I guess this is super complicated and even people who've played twice a week for 10 years can't be expected to understand this. :mad:

drakulie
01-25-2010, 07:27 PM
Has anyone ever dealt with this before?

No. You are the first. Let us know how that conversation goes.

Steady Eddy
01-25-2010, 07:34 PM
I get annoyed as hell when the friggin server stops play because they know their serve is out, even though there is no call and the returner plays it. This is against the rules. If its a second serve and they stop play, then they must call it themselves! If its a first serve, they need to play it no matter what!

Sorry, what started out as my policy on line calls turned into a rant.
No reason to apologize as I understand how you feel completely. A corollary to this is when I hit serves that look to me to be out by 6 inches, but they're playing them. Ok, so then I'll serve, (looks out, but no call), take the net, hit a winning volley, and they say, "Serve was out". :mad: Then call it please. Don't wait to see how the point comes out. Because I'm pretty sure if my "winning volley" had been an error instead, they would have kept the point. It's not like everybody just understands what every shot it. What a shot is, is what it's called, by the person whose job it is to make the call. Don't just assume that everyone knows a ball was out by two inches. Call it! Rant over.

Tennisman912
01-25-2010, 07:55 PM
Blade you are so correct. No, I have never dealt with this before. If you played it, it was in. If your partner didn’t call it or missed it, it was in and the benefit of the doubt always goes to your opponents. Yes, I call my own serves out and almost everyone I know or play with do as well. You never know when your partner may miss a call (blink or whatever). It is your responsibility in the end to make the call. They may call them sometimes and that is great, but in the end, it is my responsibility IMHO. Any help they give is appreciated, but if they miss it or aren't sure, we can't get mad at them for missing the call when we missed it ourselves. If that happens it was in. If they don’t call it and I miss it, it is in. Period. I don’t get what the problem is. If the serve is clearly out, it is out. Make the call, if it isn’t, play on. If a ball lands on the line according to one player and the other thinks it was a foot wide, one of you is blind IMHO. But any player who actually thinks it was that far out, would make the call so again, this will be worked out by her making the call. So you are getting frustrated because a partner can’t make the call even though it was your call? Again, seems like as tennis players we have bigger fish to fry.

If you make the call a bit late and it really was a foot out, everyone else won’t be playing it and everyone I know would call it out themselves (on the serving team) in a friendly match. We don’t have to win that way. But again, you shouldn’t be missing calls a foot out. How late is relative. But it is acceptable to return the serve and immediately call it out, especially against faster servers (and this happens). But it better be very quick because if it appears you wait to see if your shot was ok, then you will lose that point if you then try to stop play. It is easier in practice than explaining.

This is no dig on you but I now understand why you wouldn’t call a foot fault at the far end of the court and don’t think others can either. You can’t tell if a 3.5 serve was in right in front of you. This is a little scary and should worry you. I hope you can see why I would say that. You said your vision isn't as good as you would like if I remember correctly (mine isn't perfect either as I need new glasses). But that is your problem at the end of the day. What I mean is if you can't be sure it was out, you can't make the call it was out. That may cost you a few point here and there, but in the end, accept it, make the calls the best you can, forget about it and move on. Remember, when in doubt or not sure, the call and benefit of the doubt goes with your opponent.

Best of luck. Get out there and play and don’t worry about all these “extraneous problems.”

TM

ALten1
01-25-2010, 08:12 PM
As a rule I am like you... I call the side lines and leave the service line for my partner unless it is obviously out. I have to see the gap so normally that means the ball is out at least 6 inches or more.

And like you I don't like to overrule my partner... but there have been times the ball was obviously in... and I will surrender the point to the opponents. I have even had one partner call a ball out one time before the ball landed in the service box... only to have it land about 8 inches in... of course I gave up the point even though I returned the ball.

The times I do correct my partner there is no debate... I just tell them that the ball was "IN". Sometimes you need to say it twice though.


I played mixed with a lady that kept calling the guys serve to me long, when they were a foot in. She was at the service line and would swear by her call. I was and about 3 feet behind the baseline and had a good line on the ball. What is the proper way to handle this situation? I noticed she started getting irratated at me and then quit making calls altogether. I tried explaining to her that I had more time to process the serve and that it is hard to see a fast serve from where she was standing. It got real uncomfortable for both of us.

Cindysphinx
01-25-2010, 08:29 PM
Just all the time! Apparently this is more complicated than Einstein's Theory of Relativity based on how many people don't get it. Some will call your service line for you, and then for some reason quit. Why is that? Anybody? I don't want to start out saying, "I call this and you call that" and look like a control freak. But I wish I had a nickel for every time someone hits a blistering serve right at me, I fail to return it, and then my partner whispers, "That serve was long". I guess this is super complicated and even people who've played twice a week for 10 years can't be expected to understand this. :mad:

Actually, with this particular partner, I do start out with The Speech. "OK, the returner calls the side lines, and the returner's partner calls the service line. Right? Cool? OK!!" It shouldn't be necessary, but it is.

Then five minutes go by and a ball goes well deep, partner says nothing, so I catch it and call it out.

Funny. I find the people who are willing to call that far service line are the same people who aren't big fans of "benefit of the doubt." Not only are they calling a line they can't see well, they are calling it tight.

Fedace
01-25-2010, 08:33 PM
Cindy,,, all i know is that cross service line should be called by yoru partner.
How funny i still find to date, this whole business with partners and what partners people like playing with and so on. For me i don't care as long as the guy doesn't curse at his own partner and wins at least 1/2 of the time.

tennytive
01-26-2010, 07:23 AM
Best of luck. Get out there and play and don’t worry about all these “extraneous problems.”

TM

That's GOLD, Jerry… GOLD!

TennisND
01-26-2010, 08:09 AM
I used to play with a partner who vetoed my baseline calls 3-4 times in the game even though I am at the back and he is upfront at net. I guess I would not want to be his partner again. I feel very frustated being the "bad" guy in the court.


So my rule: 1. I made my call and don't veto it
2. If I receive the serve, my partner needs to watch the line too and he can make the call.

LuckyR
01-26-2010, 08:27 AM
A couple of things:

1- The division of lines (these are the returner's lines to call and these are the netmans) is a mistake, IMO. True for many serves, say the sideline, the returner may be looking right along the line and thus might have the best view. However, there are going to be occasions when the returner anticipates a wide serve and is more lateral than the sideline when the ball bounces, now the returner is in the worst possible location to make a line call, since the netman will be able to see if there is court in between the ball and the line and the returner won't.

2- Since we all call all of the lines in singles, whomever thinks the ball is out should call it. If both call it, great, if only one, fine. If the player who calls it is physically farther from the ball, OK. If teammates confer after a call, so be it.

Joeyg
01-26-2010, 12:23 PM
Who's Yoru? Is she a friend of Destiny?

shazbot
01-26-2010, 12:41 PM
The pro at my club tells us the person at the net should not worry about calling service faults. Their main priority is the other net man, for when your partner returns the serve.

Taxvictim
01-26-2010, 12:53 PM
However, there are going to be occasions when the returner anticipates a wide serve and is more lateral than the sideline when the ball bounces, now the returner is in the worst possible location to make a line call, since the netman will be able to see if there is court in between the ball and the line and the returner won't.

That's an excellent point. It also explains why someone on the court may have a better view of a ball that bounces right at the baseline when his partner is behind the baseline. A player looking perpendicular to a line does have a better chance to see if there's any green between the white line and the yellow ball.

Cindy, I'm not trying to put on my Drakulie hat, but your original post does sound a little fussy. I'm with those who say either partner should call any serve out, if that's how they see it.

Cindysphinx
01-26-2010, 01:32 PM
That's an excellent point. It also explains why someone on the court may have a better view of a ball that bounces right at the baseline when his partner is behind the baseline. A player looking perpendicular to a line does have a better chance to see if there's any green between the white line and the yellow ball.

Cindy, I'm not trying to put on my Drakulie hat, but your original post does sound a little fussy. I'm with those who say either partner should call any serve out, if that's how they see it.

Please, don't put on your Drakulie hat. This board doesn't need any more children!

Sorry if my post (or all of my posts) seem fussy. I mean, I'm talking tennis, which happens to be the title of the discussion board. Me, I enjoy hearing the Tennis Stories of other people, and pretty much any tennis story causes tennis maniacs to think back on their own court experiences and share. Really, though. I won't take it personally if someone chooses to ignore any of my posts or all of them. In some cases, I'd actually prefer it.

Back on topic . . .

Lucky, I agree that the Code says that anyone can call any line.

I have had matches in the past, however, where my partner was calling lines she was not in the best position to see. This leads to two problems:

1. I wind up overruling her, and then we have hurt feelings or resentment. 'Cause I will overrule my partner in a New York minute if I am at baseline and she is at net and she calls a ball out that I saw as in.

2. Experienced opponents will begin not to trust our calls as a team. I had one match where my partner was calling the wide service sideline. Her call never contradicted mine, but some of these balls were very close. The mere fact that she was calling that line with gusto -- even though I also saw the ball out -- was viewed with great suspicion. After she made that call a few times, the opponents came to net and scolded us for bad line calls. I told her to let me call that line, as I thought her calling balls where she couldn't possibly have seen court between the ball and line was making us look bad.

kylebarendrick
01-26-2010, 01:58 PM
since the netman will be able to see if there is court in between the ball and the line and the returner won't.

My understanding (based on what I've seen from officials) is that line calls are most accurate when the person making the call is looking down the line. Look at the positions of the line judges in a pro match as an example.

The problem with looking across the line (like the receiver's partner on a wide serve) is that a ball can hit the side line and spin/roll enough to make it look like there was space between the ball and the line, which can lead to erroneous out calls. The server's partner, on the other hand, has a great view looking down the line and can easily see that the receiver's partner has now hooked them. All bets are off at that point.

Yes, singles players call their own lines. In theory this should mean that they play a lot of out balls - especially serves that are long, since there is no way to see a gap between the ball and the service line if it is close.

PatrickB
01-26-2010, 02:39 PM
This isn't nearly as simple as people want to make it, particularly in terms of the sidelines.

Because receiver is busy playing and tracking the ball, it is difficult for him to call the line correctly. Any competent line judge will tell you that you'll make a much better line call if you're watching the line the ball is approaching instead of tracking the ball. For these reasons, sometimes the partner actually has a more accurate view of the *far* sideline.

In contrast, the *center* line can actually be difficult for the receiver's partner to call because of angles. In particular, if the partner is looking for space between the ball and the outside of the line, the ball itself can obscure that space because it can be between the line and the receiver's partner, making that space impossible to see on close calls. Again, if you talk to an experienced chair umpire, they'll tell you of this difficulty with near sidelines (which is what the centerline is to the receiver's partner) compared to far sidelines. For this reason, the receiver is sometimes better situated to call a centerline ball than his partner who may be closer!

Because of this, I'm distrustful of any fixed assignment of which people should be watching which line. If you see it out, call it out. If your partner makes an out call that you're sure is incorrect, overrule him/her.

PatrickB
01-26-2010, 07:45 PM
I used to play with a partner who vetoed my baseline calls 3-4 times in the game even though I am at the back and he is upfront at net. I guess I would not want to be his partner again. I feel very frustated being the "bad" guy in the court.


So my rule: 1. I made my call and don't veto it
2. If I receive the serve, my partner needs to watch the line too and he can make the call.

Again, if you're returning the ball on the baseline, you don't have the angle between the ball and the line to see if there's space there. A player *in* the court does have a better angle, and is frequently not busy trying to hit the ball at the same and can make a better call. If he sees the ball as clearly in that you called out, he's *oblidged* to correct your call.

Steady Eddy
01-26-2010, 08:58 PM
I used to play with a partner who vetoed my baseline calls 3-4 times in the game even though I am at the back and he is upfront at net. I guess I would not want to be his partner again. I feel very frustated being the "bad" guy in the court.


So my rule: 1. I made my call and don't veto it
2. If I receive the serve, my partner needs to watch the line too and he can make the call.You have my sympathy. I'm not as tolerant as you. Once, I let a lob go, it landed deep and I called it that way. My partner, who was standing behind the baseline, overruled my call. I think this is because of where we were standing. From inside the court, I could clearly see space between where the ball landed and the baseline, but from behind the court, I looks like it's on the line. Since I wouldn't have called it out unless I was sure, he shouldn't have overruled me. He's making me look corrupt.

Again, if you're returning the ball on the baseline, you don't have the angle between the ball and the line to see if there's space there. A player *in* the court does have a better angle, and is frequently not busy trying to hit the ball at the same and can make a better call. If he sees the ball as clearly in that you called out, he's *oblidged* to correct your call.
I probably allow a 10 out balls per set. I don't call it out in the first place unless I'm sure. For a partner to over-rule, he's saying, "I'm not accepting the points that my cheating partner wants." It's no fun to play when someone accuses you of being a cheat. But it looks like he must be right because he's giving up the point. If I get that guy again for a partner, I'll over-rule one of his out calls, then he'll look like a cheat, and he can get a taste of his own medicine.

Cindysphinx
01-26-2010, 09:12 PM
Hey, whoa. If your partners are overruling your calls, I think there might be a problem with your calls.

Maybe stick closer to the Code's guideline about who should call what line and don't call that baseline when your partner is there? Don't take it personally; just don't call the lines quite so tight.

Steady Eddy
01-27-2010, 06:55 AM
Hey, whoa. If your partners are overruling your calls, I think there might be a problem with your calls.

Maybe stick closer to the Code's guideline about who should call what line and don't call that baseline when your partner is there? Don't take it personally; just don't call the lines quite so tight.
You say "calls", that's plural. It was one call. And I don't call the lines tight, that's the issue. It was well out, and it was stupid for him to over-rule me. I don't over-rule my partners. I've disagreed with some calls, but: 1) I admit there might be some doubt, 2) it's social tennis, since that's its purpose keep it a good, social event. I've never had a partner who I thought was out and out cheating and lying on line calls to get more points.

kylebarendrick
01-27-2010, 12:14 PM
They don't have to be "out and out cheating and lying" they could simply be wrong. If you clearly see a ball land "in" that your partner has called out, then you owe it to you opponents to correct the call.

I'd argue this is especially true in "social"tennis.

jswinf
01-27-2010, 01:02 PM
For a partner to over-rule, he's saying, "I'm not accepting the points that my cheating partner wants." It's no fun to play when someone accuses you of being a cheat. But it looks like he must be right because he's giving up the point. If I get that guy again for a partner, I'll over-rule one of his out calls, then he'll look like a cheat, and he can get a taste of his own medicine.

You might consider cooling off a little bit on this one. Vision is a funny thing, a "psycho-physical phenomenon." The brain and all its baggage is involved maybe more than the eyes. Hasn't everybody seen someone make a call that was obviously wrong, not even close, but they're absolutely certain of it and cheating doesn't seem in the picture? They had a processing thing, a brain twist. Like a traffic accident where a driver pulls out in front of a truck and later swears (if they lived) that they looked and didn't see a thing. It happens.

I don't, however, have a good suggestion on how to deal with a partner that makes an obviously bad call and is sure they're right. Lots of posters talk about "overruling" a bad call, and I guess if 2 partners disagree the default call is "good" but a decision made by a group of 2 with different opinions--who's to overrule who?

Steady Eddy
01-27-2010, 02:18 PM
They don't have to be "out and out cheating and lying" they could simply be wrong. If you clearly see a ball land "in" that your partner has called out, then you owe it to you opponents to correct the call.

I'd argue this is especially true in "social"tennis.That's at least true some of the time. I was playing doubles once, and the opponents shot landed right on the sideline. My partner called it out from the other side of the court. She wasn't a very good player and always lost no matter who was her partner. I thought about saying that it was actually good, but I remained silent, not to get the point, but because I thought she'd been embarrassed enough for one night. I still think I did the right thing. There can be more involved than who wins the match sometimes, IMO.

TennisND
01-27-2010, 02:23 PM
I never correct my partner's calls, even it's a doubt. We are in the same team and I will tell him secrectly that it may in but I am not going to veto his call. It just make my friend look bad.

kylebarendrick
01-27-2010, 03:45 PM
I never correct my partner's calls, even it's a doubt. We are in the same team and I will tell him secrectly that it may in but I am not going to veto his call. It just make my friend look bad.

No - it makes you both look bad when you knowingly let a bad call stand. You just stole a point from your opponents. Next you'll be admitting that you habitually footfault and reach over the net to put away balls.

Cindysphinx
01-27-2010, 04:05 PM
You say "calls", that's plural. It was one call. And I don't call the lines tight, that's the issue. It was well out, and it was stupid for him to over-rule me. I don't over-rule my partners. I've disagreed with some calls, but: 1) I admit there might be some doubt, 2) it's social tennis, since that's its purpose keep it a good, social event. I've never had a partner who I thought was out and out cheating and lying on line calls to get more points.

Hey, sorry. I misunderstood your post and overstepped.

Still friends? :)

Cindysphinx
01-27-2010, 04:10 PM
Lots of posters talk about "overruling" a bad call, and I guess if 2 partners disagree the default call is "good" but a decision made by a group of 2 with different opinions--who's to overrule who?

You raise a good point. We (and the Code) are probably thinking of this whole issue incorrectly.

I used to be a stroke and turn official for my kids' swim league. One of my jobs was to be a take-off judge. If a swimmer leaves early in a relay, that's a DQ. One take-off judge is stationed on the side of the pool; the other is at the end. Both judges have to call an infraction. If only one saw it, there is no DQ.

Why don't we think of it this way for tennis? It's not that one partner is overruling the other. Blech, what an ugly way to view it. It's that both have to see it as out (when both actually see it), and if they don't agree then it is in.

Steady Eddy
01-27-2010, 07:20 PM
I never correct my partner's calls, even it's a doubt. We are in the same team and I will tell him secrectly that it may in but I am not going to veto his call. It just make my friend look bad.Very sensible, IMO.

No - it makes you both look bad when you knowingly let a bad call stand. You just stole a point from your opponents. Next you'll be admitting that you habitually footfault and reach over the net to put away balls.
There's a downside to it, and an upside. It's just a value judgement about which is more important. I care about fair calls, but I like to be sensitive to not contradicting a person too.
Hey, sorry. I misunderstood your post and overstepped.

Still friends? :)
Of course. :)

ALten1
01-27-2010, 08:48 PM
So how do you handle a situation where your partner calls it out and its obvious to you and your opponents that it is in? Some people here are saying if you correct a call it is calling them cheats, others are saying honestly is best.
What do you say to your partner that is making multiple bad calls during a match?
One more: If partner calls it out and it is in and you return it, do you have to forfeit the point?

Steady Eddy
01-28-2010, 06:28 AM
So how do you handle a situation where your partner calls it out and its obvious to you and your opponents that it is in? Some people here are saying if you correct a call it is calling them cheats, others are saying honestly is best.
What do you say to your partner that is making multiple bad calls during a match?
One more: If partner calls it out and it is in and you return it, do you have to forfeit the point?I've only had one bad call at a time with a partner. I've never had a serial bad caller. So he's a cheater or has bad eyesight. I'm not sure what I'd do, but afterward, I'd make every effort not to get him as a partner again.

sureshs
01-28-2010, 07:28 AM
Sphinxie, people are calling you the greatest:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4341577&postcount=152

Cindysphinx
01-28-2010, 08:11 AM
Sphinxie, people are calling you the greatest:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4341577&postcount=152

I am totally puzzled. I haven't watched the ladies' semis, so I have to stay away from the pro match results board for now.

Defend my honour, will ya sureshs?

sureshs
01-28-2010, 08:21 AM
I am totally puzzled. I haven't watched the ladies' semis, so I have to stay away from the pro match results board for now.

Defend my honour, will ya sureshs?

Ok I will.

About the ladies semis, there is not much to say. That itself pretty much gives it away LOL.

But how come you use British spelling?

Cindysphinx
01-28-2010, 08:23 AM
I use British spelling when I am asking a brave knight to defend my honour.

Seems only fitting.

PatrickB
01-28-2010, 10:10 AM
So how do you handle a situation where your partner calls it out and its obvious to you and your opponents that it is in?


Then you're oblidged to overrule your partner. Ettiquitte-wise, the best way to do this is probably to go to your partner and tell them that you saw it clearly in so that they can correct their call.


One more: If partner calls it out and it is in and you return it, do you have to forfeit the point?

If you correct your partner and your return is *in*, you play a let. If your return was out, your lose the point.

SirGounder
01-28-2010, 10:40 AM
I used to play doubles a lot with my cousin and her coworkers, one of whom as notorious for making bad calls. The thing was that his calls were equally bad for and against. Anybody who was his partner had to make corrections and he was always cool with it. We later found out he normally wore glasses but took them off to play.

I think if you politely overrule your partner it would be alright, but I guess it also depends on the type of person you're playing with.

LuckyR
01-28-2010, 02:38 PM
My understanding (based on what I've seen from officials) is that line calls are most accurate when the person making the call is looking down the line. Look at the positions of the line judges in a pro match as an example.

The problem with looking across the line (like the receiver's partner on a wide serve) is that a ball can hit the side line and spin/roll enough to make it look like there was space between the ball and the line, which can lead to erroneous out calls. The server's partner, on the other hand, has a great view looking down the line and can easily see that the receiver's partner has now hooked them. All bets are off at that point.

Yes, singles players call their own lines. In theory this should mean that they play a lot of out balls - especially serves that are long, since there is no way to see a gap between the ball and the service line if it is close.

I agree with most of your post and I was not trying to say that looking across a line is superior to looking down the line, but many times noone is looking down the line. In these cases looking from inside the court is superior to looking across a line from outside the court.

As to your bolded statement, I disagree. In my experience, there is no way there can be court in between a line and a ball on an "in" ball.